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> <channel><title>Comments on: Davidian: Land Reparation: Statics and Dynamics</title> <atom:link href="http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/</link> <description>Published by the Hairenik Association, Inc.</description> <lastBuildDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:43:06 -0400</lastBuildDate> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <item><title>By: African friend</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-2/#comment-4882</link> <dc:creator>African friend</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:19:19 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-4882</guid> <description>While Armenians have been busy over the last 95 years bickering over whether land reparations and justice are necessary as a form of redress for the Armenian genocide, Holocaust survivors and their descendants have been very actively pursuing justice on many fronts. Securing reparations through legal means and ensuring the prosecution of unrepentant perpetrators is an objective they achieve to this very day. Another Ex-Nazi SS was put on trial in Germany today. The Simon Wiesenthal Center has a most wanted list. Restitution claims continue to be brought before the courts to this day.
 
And while all this justice abounds under your noses, some people still cling to the Armenian genocide recognition only mindset. While Holocaust survivors race to hunt for the last Nazi&#039;s and collect their rightful belongings, Armenians remain indecisive about justice as indicated by the comments above and the Armenian governments own implosion to turkey&#039;s campaign of denial.
 
Justice, not recognition, is what you should be chanting about in April.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While Armenians have been busy over the last 95 years bickering over whether land reparations and justice are necessary as a form of redress for the Armenian genocide, Holocaust survivors and their descendants have been very actively pursuing justice on many fronts. Securing reparations through legal means and ensuring the prosecution of unrepentant perpetrators is an objective they achieve to this very day. Another Ex-Nazi SS was put on trial in Germany today. The Simon Wiesenthal Center has a most wanted list. Restitution claims continue to be brought before the courts to this day.<br
/>  <br
/> And while all this justice abounds under your noses, some people still cling to the Armenian genocide recognition only mindset. While Holocaust survivors race to hunt for the last Nazi&#8217;s and collect their rightful belongings, Armenians remain indecisive about justice as indicated by the comments above and the Armenian governments own implosion to turkey&#8217;s campaign of denial.<br
/>  <br
/> Justice, not recognition, is what you should be chanting about in April.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: David Davidian</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-2/#comment-3370</link> <dc:creator>David Davidian</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:42:26 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-3370</guid> <description>&lt;!-- 		@page { size: 8.5in 11in; margin: 0.79in } 		P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --&gt;
Hayko,
This is a demand to restore Armenia&#039;s ability for self-sufficiency. With such self-sufficiency, Armenia ceases to become a place where living is a daily challenge for the non-oligarchs. Please note I am  not calling for regaining Greater Armenia which generally encompasses what is know as Sevres/Wilsonian Armenia perhaps even extending to the Mediterranean.
If clear demands and preparations are not made now, if and when conditions exist where those demands might in part or in whole materialize, another interest having though this through will fill that vacuum.
If and when the conditions exist when this land could be returned to Armenian sovereignty, it will not be returned on a silver platter. It will include about a million people, some who have an affinity to Armenians, other who don’t.  Most likely its jails will be emptied of criminals with more shipped in, for most likely Turkey reluctantly returned this land. The inclusion of the land area noted in the map will not result in simply a larger Armenia with the the same problems, but an Armenia, because it both has native access to the sea and has at least a minimum of genocide reparations, has the ability to prosper on its own terms.
Although highly desirable, not a single Armenian from LA need return.
Regards</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><br
/> Hayko,<br
/> This is a demand to restore Armenia&#8217;s ability for self-sufficiency. With such self-sufficiency, Armenia ceases to become a place where living is a daily challenge for the non-oligarchs. Please note I am  not calling for regaining Greater Armenia which generally encompasses what is know as Sevres/Wilsonian Armenia perhaps even extending to the Mediterranean.<br
/> If clear demands and preparations are not made now, if and when conditions exist where those demands might in part or in whole materialize, another interest having though this through will fill that vacuum.<br
/> If and when the conditions exist when this land could be returned to Armenian sovereignty, it will not be returned on a silver platter. It will include about a million people, some who have an affinity to Armenians, other who don’t.  Most likely its jails will be emptied of criminals with more shipped in, for most likely Turkey reluctantly returned this land. The inclusion of the land area noted in the map will not result in simply a larger Armenia with the the same problems, but an Armenia, because it both has native access to the sea and has at least a minimum of genocide reparations, has the ability to prosper on its own terms.<br
/> Although highly desirable, not a single Armenian from LA need return.<br
/> Regards</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Hayko</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-2/#comment-3297</link> <dc:creator>Hayko</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 06:19:13 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-3297</guid> <description>This is a little more than a pipe dream, im afraid. Armenia can barely hold on to the small  territories we have. You&#039;re talking about regaining historical Greater Armenia and repopulating it with Armenians, yet Armenia is rapidly losing people due to emigration and low birth rate. Who&#039;s going to settle . Diasporans in California and elsewhere are going to move to Armenia to enjoy the lower living standards there?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a little more than a pipe dream, im afraid. Armenia can barely hold on to the small  territories we have. You&#8217;re talking about regaining historical Greater Armenia and repopulating it with Armenians, yet Armenia is rapidly losing people due to emigration and low birth rate. Who&#8217;s going to settle . Diasporans in California and elsewhere are going to move to Armenia to enjoy the lower living standards there?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Mamigoniane Torne</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-2/#comment-2720</link> <dc:creator>Mamigoniane Torne</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 19:09:04 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-2720</guid> <description>Minchev aysor sireli paregamner, asonk ashgharen ge bardatren erentz eravoonke. Ov DER mer kaghoote inch gesbase?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/world/europe/02restore.html?_r=1&amp;hpw
August 2, 2009
&lt;strong&gt;Hurdles in Eastern Europe Thwart Restitution Claims&lt;/strong&gt;
By DAN BILEFSKYPRAGUE — Seventy years have passed since members of the Thorsch family fled German-occupied Czech lands in 1939. They left behind a lucrative oil refinery business that was seized by the Nazis, nationalized after World War II and then taken over by the Communist government.Marie Warburg — granddaughter of Alfons and Marie Thorsch, who owned the Privoz refinery and escaped the Holocaust by emigrating to Canada — laments that her family has received no compensation for its loss. She says the Thorsches are blocked by a law under which only Czech citizens can qualify for restitution of businesses or homes.Twenty years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, restitution experts say the countries of Eastern and Central Europe are still lagging in compensating for private property seized during the Holocaust. For example, Poland, home to the largest prewar Jewish population in Europe, has not enforced legislation on private property restitution, fearful that it would prompt tens of thousands of claims.Efforts at restitution in other countries, like the Czech Republic, remain hampered by the reluctance of governments to relax requirements the way Germany has in an effort to remove daunting or unfair legal obstacles.“Providing proof of citizenship is a problem for the heirs of Holocaust victims, whose families were expelled or fled from Czechoslovakia or ended up in a chimney at Auschwitz,” said Ms. Warburg, an American citizen who lives in Berlin and whose German-born father was a member of the Warburg banking dynasty.Czech officials declined to comment on the specifics of Ms. Warburg’s case. Jiri Cistecky, a senior official at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, noted that in the last 20 years alone, the Czech Republic distributed roughly $185 million to Nazi victims, including money to care for elderly Holocaust survivors. Still, Mr. Cistecky acknowledged that Czech laws could complicate restitution efforts in some cases.As part of an effort to improve the system, the Czech Republic held a conference in late June in Prague in which 46 countries backed the formation of an institute in a former Nazi camp, Terezin, aimed at tracking the return of Jewish property stolen by the Nazis. While the conference ended with a declaration calling for restitution, Holocaust education and improved provenance research, critics complained that it had no legal enforcement mechanism to prod recalcitrant nations to take action.A number of Western European countries, led by Germany, carried out far-reaching measures to provide restitution of Nazi-looted properties in the aftermath of World War II, including setting up commissions to deal with heirless property and communal property illegally seized during the war. But similar efforts were stymied in Eastern Europe, where, by the end of the 1940s, the very basis of property ownership had been supplanted by socialist ideology and the nationalization efforts of Communist regimes.Even after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, restitution experts say, establishing moral and legal certainties of claims has proved elusive in a region where not only citizens but also governments view themselves as victims of Nazism and Communism.“They say, ‘Let the Germans or Austrians do it, they were the bad guys,’ ” said Stuart E. Eizenstat, who was deputy treasury secretary under President Bill Clinton and has led the international restitution drive. “It is hard to create the political will for restitution to take place.”Another major hurdle, many experts say, is a visceral fear among governments that citizens who had nothing to do with past crimes will be thrust out of homes or businesses or face financial liabilities for properties they acquired legally. Some countries are loath to part with artistic treasures said to have been looted by the Nazis that were long ago incorporated into national museums.Michal Klepetar, the great-nephew of Richard Popper, a Czech who was killed in the Holocaust, said that a few years ago he learned that several pieces of his great-uncle’s old masters art collection were in the hands of the National Gallery in Prague. But according to the Holocaust Act of 2000, he does not qualify for restitution, because he is not a direct heir, even though Mr. Popper’s wife and daughter were also killed by the Nazis. His disqualification, Mr. Klepetar asserted, conflicts with Czech inheritance law, which allows nephews and nieces to claim property. The National Gallery declined to comment.Ms. Warburg said her efforts were a matter of principle as well as a responsibility toward her mother’s family, the Thorsches, who have roots in the Czech Republic dating from the 16th century, when family lore suggests that they emigrated to Prague from Toledo, Spain, during the Inquisition.In the 1880s, the Thorsch family provided financing for the establishment of Privoz, the refinery eventually bought out by her grandfather, Alfons Thorsch. The family had moved to Vienna from Prague in the 1870s, when Jews were being persecuted, and became prominent bankers.By the 1930s, Privoz had 10 percent of the Czech energy market and owned 202 rail cars to export oil.One month before Austria was incorporated into Nazi Germany in March 1938, Alfons Thorsch, his wife and one of their five daughters, Marie’s mother, fled from Vienna to Canada. Her uncle, a Czechoslovak who was living in Prague and had been director of Privoz, fled Nazi-occupied Czechoslovakia one year later.Within weeks of her family’s escape, Ms. Warburg said, the oil refinery in Moravia — a region east of Prague with important industries — was occupied by the Nazis, who fired all of its directors, some of whom ended up in concentration camps. The Nazis then invested tens of millions of dollars in refurbishing the plant to help fuel the German war effort.When World War II ended, Ms. Warburg said, the refinery was nationalized under the Czechoslovak government of President Eduard Benes.Ms. Warburg said the family’s efforts to gain restitution during the Communist era had proved fruitless because the state was ideologically opposed to private property. In the early 1990s, after the fall of Communism, the Czech Republic established restitution laws that required those seeking compensation for homes or businesses to be citizens of the Czech Republic, effectively pre-empting Ms. Warburg from making any legal claim.Legal experts say she could file a case in a Czech court under the so-called Benes Decrees of 1945, which are still legally valid and stipulate that those whose property was nationalized by the state and were victims of National Socialism should receive compensation.Yet experts say the Czech government has thus far proved ill disposed to enforce the decrees for fear of unleashing a torrent of claims from Sudeten Germans, millions of whom were driven from their homes in Czechoslovakia after the war.
 </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Minchev aysor sireli paregamner, asonk ashgharen ge bardatren erentz eravoonke. Ov DER mer kaghoote inch gesbase?<br
/> <a
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/world/europe/02restore.html?_r=1&amp;hpw" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/world/europe/02restore.html?_r=1&amp;hpw</a><br
/> August 2, 2009<br
/> <strong>Hurdles in Eastern Europe Thwart Restitution Claims</strong><br
/> By DAN BILEFSKY</p><p>PRAGUE — Seventy years have passed since members of the Thorsch family fled German-occupied Czech lands in 1939. They left behind a lucrative oil refinery business that was seized by the Nazis, nationalized after World War II and then taken over by the Communist government.</p><p>Marie Warburg — granddaughter of Alfons and Marie Thorsch, who owned the Privoz refinery and escaped the Holocaust by emigrating to Canada — laments that her family has received no compensation for its loss. She says the Thorsches are blocked by a law under which only Czech citizens can qualify for restitution of businesses or homes.</p><p>Twenty years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, restitution experts say the countries of Eastern and Central Europe are still lagging in compensating for private property seized during the Holocaust. For example, Poland, home to the largest prewar Jewish population in Europe, has not enforced legislation on private property restitution, fearful that it would prompt tens of thousands of claims.</p><p>Efforts at restitution in other countries, like the Czech Republic, remain hampered by the reluctance of governments to relax requirements the way Germany has in an effort to remove daunting or unfair legal obstacles.</p><p>“Providing proof of citizenship is a problem for the heirs of Holocaust victims, whose families were expelled or fled from Czechoslovakia or ended up in a chimney at Auschwitz,” said Ms. Warburg, an American citizen who lives in Berlin and whose German-born father was a member of the Warburg banking dynasty.</p><p>Czech officials declined to comment on the specifics of Ms. Warburg’s case. Jiri Cistecky, a senior official at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, noted that in the last 20 years alone, the Czech Republic distributed roughly $185 million to Nazi victims, including money to care for elderly Holocaust survivors. Still, Mr. Cistecky acknowledged that Czech laws could complicate restitution efforts in some cases.</p><p>As part of an effort to improve the system, the Czech Republic held a conference in late June in Prague in which 46 countries backed the formation of an institute in a former Nazi camp, Terezin, aimed at tracking the return of Jewish property stolen by the Nazis. While the conference ended with a declaration calling for restitution, Holocaust education and improved provenance research, critics complained that it had no legal enforcement mechanism to prod recalcitrant nations to take action.</p><p>A number of Western European countries, led by Germany, carried out far-reaching measures to provide restitution of Nazi-looted properties in the aftermath of World War II, including setting up commissions to deal with heirless property and communal property illegally seized during the war. But similar efforts were stymied in Eastern Europe, where, by the end of the 1940s, the very basis of property ownership had been supplanted by socialist ideology and the nationalization efforts of Communist regimes.</p><p>Even after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, restitution experts say, establishing moral and legal certainties of claims has proved elusive in a region where not only citizens but also governments view themselves as victims of Nazism and Communism.</p><p>“They say, ‘Let the Germans or Austrians do it, they were the bad guys,’ ” said Stuart E. Eizenstat, who was deputy treasury secretary under President Bill Clinton and has led the international restitution drive. “It is hard to create the political will for restitution to take place.”</p><p>Another major hurdle, many experts say, is a visceral fear among governments that citizens who had nothing to do with past crimes will be thrust out of homes or businesses or face financial liabilities for properties they acquired legally. Some countries are loath to part with artistic treasures said to have been looted by the Nazis that were long ago incorporated into national museums.</p><p>Michal Klepetar, the great-nephew of Richard Popper, a Czech who was killed in the Holocaust, said that a few years ago he learned that several pieces of his great-uncle’s old masters art collection were in the hands of the National Gallery in Prague. But according to the Holocaust Act of 2000, he does not qualify for restitution, because he is not a direct heir, even though Mr. Popper’s wife and daughter were also killed by the Nazis. His disqualification, Mr. Klepetar asserted, conflicts with Czech inheritance law, which allows nephews and nieces to claim property. The National Gallery declined to comment.</p><p>Ms. Warburg said her efforts were a matter of principle as well as a responsibility toward her mother’s family, the Thorsches, who have roots in the Czech Republic dating from the 16th century, when family lore suggests that they emigrated to Prague from Toledo, Spain, during the Inquisition.</p><p>In the 1880s, the Thorsch family provided financing for the establishment of Privoz, the refinery eventually bought out by her grandfather, Alfons Thorsch. The family had moved to Vienna from Prague in the 1870s, when Jews were being persecuted, and became prominent bankers.</p><p>By the 1930s, Privoz had 10 percent of the Czech energy market and owned 202 rail cars to export oil.</p><p>One month before Austria was incorporated into Nazi Germany in March 1938, Alfons Thorsch, his wife and one of their five daughters, Marie’s mother, fled from Vienna to Canada. Her uncle, a Czechoslovak who was living in Prague and had been director of Privoz, fled Nazi-occupied Czechoslovakia one year later.</p><p>Within weeks of her family’s escape, Ms. Warburg said, the oil refinery in Moravia — a region east of Prague with important industries — was occupied by the Nazis, who fired all of its directors, some of whom ended up in concentration camps. The Nazis then invested tens of millions of dollars in refurbishing the plant to help fuel the German war effort.</p><p>When World War II ended, Ms. Warburg said, the refinery was nationalized under the Czechoslovak government of President Eduard Benes.</p><p>Ms. Warburg said the family’s efforts to gain restitution during the Communist era had proved fruitless because the state was ideologically opposed to private property. In the early 1990s, after the fall of Communism, the Czech Republic established restitution laws that required those seeking compensation for homes or businesses to be citizens of the Czech Republic, effectively pre-empting Ms. Warburg from making any legal claim.</p><p>Legal experts say she could file a case in a Czech court under the so-called Benes Decrees of 1945, which are still legally valid and stipulate that those whose property was nationalized by the state and were victims of National Socialism should receive compensation.</p><p>Yet experts say the Czech government has thus far proved ill disposed to enforce the decrees for fear of unleashing a torrent of claims from Sudeten Germans, millions of whom were driven from their homes in Czechoslovakia after the war.<br
/>  </p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Hagop Hachikian</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-2/#comment-2660</link> <dc:creator>Hagop Hachikian</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:46:04 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-2660</guid> <description>To Rootarmo:
Repeating a true statement pertaining to a totally different case (Franco-German) or a general statement about closing borders adversely affecting trade may sound reasonable to you but it doesn&#039;t help explain our particular case or it doesn&#039;t provide an automatic example of conflict resolution.  Everybody (I believe including you) agrees there is no serious and detailed study to prove or disprove the benefits of the open border.   So, what is the sense in repeating &quot;no, you prove that border opening harms Armenia&quot;?
 
I believe if people look at the Regional kinetics proposal for what it is what it isn&#039;t, they&#039;ll soon or later will see it isn&#039;t for victories, pound of flesh to be ripped away from Turkey, proof of intellectual superiority, etc.  We know that a number of other Armenian individuals (a couple of whose articles were posted above) also think that an access to the Black Sea is crucial to Armenia&#039;s survival. To me, this proposal is trying to make the Armenian individual think about what is best for the survivability of Armenia.  It has no outlandish claims that it can be achieved easily, soon, or under all circumstances.   It is challenging people to debate it, add to it, come up with your own improved one, or completely debunk it.   However, what the proposal isn&#039;t inviting people to do is dismissing altogether because it is difficult to achieve given the current equilibrium of forces, because of it generality, or because of it doesn’t contain things you may or may not wish to see.
 
Your continued references to “winners and losers”, &quot;your proposal versus mine&quot;, other Armenians&#039; &quot;provincialisms&quot; etc. is making me and possibly others think that this is the window through which you are viewing your interactions here and possibly this is what&#039;s really important to you.  I am not sure if you honestly think these distractions help in any way to the discussion.  What happens next when you get to say the last word, say just anything and rebut everybody, what&#039;s next?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Rootarmo:<br
/> Repeating a true statement pertaining to a totally different case (Franco-German) or a general statement about closing borders adversely affecting trade may sound reasonable to you but it doesn&#8217;t help explain our particular case or it doesn&#8217;t provide an automatic example of conflict resolution.  Everybody (I believe including you) agrees there is no serious and detailed study to prove or disprove the benefits of the open border.   So, what is the sense in repeating &#8220;no, you prove that border opening harms Armenia&#8221;?<br
/>  <br
/> I believe if people look at the Regional kinetics proposal for what it is what it isn&#8217;t, they&#8217;ll soon or later will see it isn&#8217;t for victories, pound of flesh to be ripped away from Turkey, proof of intellectual superiority, etc.  We know that a number of other Armenian individuals (a couple of whose articles were posted above) also think that an access to the Black Sea is crucial to Armenia&#8217;s survival. To me, this proposal is trying to make the Armenian individual think about what is best for the survivability of Armenia.  It has no outlandish claims that it can be achieved easily, soon, or under all circumstances.   It is challenging people to debate it, add to it, come up with your own improved one, or completely debunk it.   However, what the proposal isn&#8217;t inviting people to do is dismissing altogether because it is difficult to achieve given the current equilibrium of forces, because of it generality, or because of it doesn’t contain things you may or may not wish to see.<br
/>  <br
/> Your continued references to “winners and losers”, &#8220;your proposal versus mine&#8221;, other Armenians&#8217; &#8220;provincialisms&#8221; etc. is making me and possibly others think that this is the window through which you are viewing your interactions here and possibly this is what&#8217;s really important to you.  I am not sure if you honestly think these distractions help in any way to the discussion.  What happens next when you get to say the last word, say just anything and rebut everybody, what&#8217;s next?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: David Davidian</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-2/#comment-2657</link> <dc:creator>David Davidian</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:56:36 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-2657</guid> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Root:&lt;/strong&gt;
 
You wrote: &quot;&lt;em&gt;Show me an example or as you would like to say analysis that closing borders between two countries is beneficial.&lt;/em&gt;&quot; I am not making an argument for keeping the Armenian border closed. However, you can conclude that I am suggesting keeping it closed because no rational argument exists for opening it. I am asking those who claim any good can come from such border opening to provide analysis for such a claim, not wishful thinking.
 
You wrote: &quot;&lt;em&gt;Is your Georgia example a sample of your analysis ?&quot; &lt;/em&gt;No, it&#039;s not sample analysis. It&#039;s a question that those who want an open Armenian-Turkish border need to answer. Having an open border particularly with Turkey apparently hasn&#039;t helped Georgia, even in light of a Russian blockade and world-wide recession. Why this is and what conclusions can be drawn from it must be established.
 
You wrote: &lt;em&gt;&quot;By the way, you mentioned earlier that if you didn’t write this article I would have nothing to talk about. That is an extremely presumtious remark&lt;/em&gt;.&quot; I have never seen anything authored by RootArm in opposition to land reparation or in opposition to preparting for dynamic geopolitical change. This means that an effort was put forth in active affirmation and you are simply in reactive opposition.
 
Our discussion has become meaningless. Feel free to have the last word
 </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Root:</strong><br
/>  <br
/> You wrote: &#8220;<em>Show me an example or as you would like to say analysis that closing borders between two countries is beneficial.</em>&#8221; I am not making an argument for keeping the Armenian border closed. However, you can conclude that I am suggesting keeping it closed because no rational argument exists for opening it. I am asking those who claim any good can come from such border opening to provide analysis for such a claim, not wishful thinking.<br
/>  <br
/> You wrote: &#8220;<em>Is your Georgia example a sample of your analysis ?&#8221; </em>No, it&#8217;s not sample analysis. It&#8217;s a question that those who want an open Armenian-Turkish border need to answer. Having an open border particularly with Turkey apparently hasn&#8217;t helped Georgia, even in light of a Russian blockade and world-wide recession. Why this is and what conclusions can be drawn from it must be established.<br
/>  <br
/> You wrote: <em>&#8220;By the way, you mentioned earlier that if you didn’t write this article I would have nothing to talk about. That is an extremely presumtious remark</em>.&#8221; I have never seen anything authored by RootArm in opposition to land reparation or in opposition to preparting for dynamic geopolitical change. This means that an effort was put forth in active affirmation and you are simply in reactive opposition.<br
/>  <br
/> Our discussion has become meaningless. Feel free to have the last word<br
/>  </p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Rootarmo</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-2/#comment-2648</link> <dc:creator>Rootarmo</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:22:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-2648</guid> <description>David Davidian:Your opinions are strong as mine. Where is your analysis ? Let me guess if someone agrees with your insights then no analysis needed...if someone does not agree with your analysis they better come to the table with excel spreedsheets.All the GDP&#039;s of countries in the region are down. Furthermore, I would guess ( and no I have not done an full analysis) that the war with Russia last year might have a slight effect on Georgia&#039;s economy... would effects of war on an economy be included in an  economics 101 class? Is your Georgia example a sample of your analysis ? I know you want facts to fit your conculsions but give it another try.Show me an example or as you would like to say analysis that closing borders between two countries is beneficial.Do I think an open border with Turkey will solve all of armenia&#039;s problems. No.  Not even close. Do I think demanding land from Turkey is going get us anywhere..No.By the way, you mentioned earlier that if you didn&#039;t write this article I would have nothing to talk about.  That is an extremely presumtious remark. I am not  the one who is writing articles in the weekly and putting up websites. I am sure if someone commended your for laying down some sort of intellectual basis for great victories in the future you wouldn&#039;t disagree. Or perhaps you would politely disagree but be thrilled at the sentiment. So, you need to accept the reality that people, even people you deem intelliectually inferior to you, are going to think you are completely in your own world.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Davidian:</p><p>Your opinions are strong as mine. Where is your analysis ? Let me guess if someone agrees with your insights then no analysis needed&#8230;if someone does not agree with your analysis they better come to the table with excel spreedsheets.</p><p>All the GDP&#8217;s of countries in the region are down. Furthermore, I would guess ( and no I have not done an full analysis) that the war with Russia last year might have a slight effect on Georgia&#8217;s economy&#8230; would effects of war on an economy be included in an  economics 101 class? Is your Georgia example a sample of your analysis ? I know you want facts to fit your conculsions but give it another try.</p><p>Show me an example or as you would like to say analysis that closing borders between two countries is beneficial.</p><p>Do I think an open border with Turkey will solve all of armenia&#8217;s problems. No.  Not even close. Do I think demanding land from Turkey is going get us anywhere..No.</p><p>By the way, you mentioned earlier that if you didn&#8217;t write this article I would have nothing to talk about.  That is an extremely presumtious remark. I am not  the one who is writing articles in the weekly and putting up websites. I am sure if someone commended your for laying down some sort of intellectual basis for great victories in the future you wouldn&#8217;t disagree. Or perhaps you would politely disagree but be thrilled at the sentiment. So, you need to accept the reality that people, even people you deem intelliectually inferior to you, are going to think you are completely in your own world.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: c-cian</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-2642</link> <dc:creator>c-cian</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 04:12:26 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-2642</guid> <description>Great article for discussion;
GDP poor evaluation of livelihood- commenting to someones post
Land Reparations is feasible for Armenians since, there is tons of documentation regarding this issue (Hilmar Kaiser&#039;s analysis looks the best). Geno recognition and $$ would definitely suffice Armenia&#039;s poor (if the money did go there). Territorial Shifts is out of question- especially en route to Black Sea- who&#039;d be crazy enough to give up port territory- That&#039;s the central trading mechanism. Look, Karabakh&#039;s territory is the kentical issue- define the new borders and enforce them internationally- we want the people to be safe; Armenians were defending ourselves (still are).  Any aggression is against Armenians is defense- but the Azeri Idp situation needs to be examined in correlation with sociocultural issues. Anyhow...
Regional Kinetics is very nice idea but its application in this article is not what I expected, given the well written article. Regional power dynamics is worth examining however, for example; Russian influence.  The idea is dependency; Armenia relies on Russia Azerbaijan on Turkey; each with their own sets of relationships.
There is however, regional power dynamics, which is more covert.
Why would turkey want the border reopened? Here are my suggestions and I do think more extensive research should be done before opening the actual border.
-Oil pipelines (from the Caspian),
-Money, not &quot;flooding the market place.&quot; But another consumer market that has some sophistication and attraction to Western Goods (possibly). Neoliberalism will DESTROY Armenia&#039;s people and organic business market; so tougher state policies should be considered for the welfare of Armenians and our businesses. (not socialism).
-E.U. prospects/make turkey look good blah blah, &#039;democratization,&#039; etc.
-tourism?
-A corridor to push Kurds (or any ethnicity)  into Armenia? Or open borders to allow warfare for the future?
-Turkish scholarly and intelligentsia appeal on a global scale
-University connections
-Turkey has vast amounts of land; I don&#039;t see any infrastructural development really happening right away- .
-We have to ask ourselves, not only what the benefit for Armenia is- but also the regional benefits for state governments (turkey in this case)
 
How does this help open border benefit Armenia?
-First, I think Turkish economic penetration will be limited considering Russia&#039;s influence in region.  Supposedly, there are already turkish goods in Armenia- so don&#039;t know the correlation unless these companies develop in Armenia too.
-Business wise, the rich Armo&#039;s from Turkey can network and develop relations with the motherland.
-Armenia&#039;s committment to Turkey&#039;s border relations.- political sphere
-Oil tax revenues from pipeline development.  (but have to be careful where the $$ goes!!)
-oil companies also employ many fields;
-exchange of academia
-appeal to the Karabakh issue?
 
-well, I can&#039;t think of many solutions. This is some sociocultural political significance.  Could potentially disintegrate ethnic hatred for the future (maybe). It makes for an interesting case to really examine the benefits for Armenia right?
But like some posts I&#039;ve seen on here, Armenia needs independent solutions to growing problems; especially Karabakh peace settlement. Why? Our people just need to be safe, live sustainability. Armenians don&#039;t care about all the crazy luxuries, we&#039;re all about our culture, people, identity, history, music, etc. . Keep things simple within the confines of &quot;regional kinetics&quot;
For example, since Armenia is landlocked it is dependent on other countries. Stronger investment in social capital creates long-term stability. Start with energy for example, Armenia needs to invest money in energy development; getting gas is a pain in the ass---and we&#039;re a pretty small country. Eco-friendly solutions should be on the table within the energineering community. Also, if the border is opened and there is oil pipeline/station development- the job rate will definitely grow; you need engineers, architects, planners, construction, etc. With the help of careful investment we can use Armenian arrchitects and engineers to design more culturally appealing and eco-friendly solutions that target the populations needs. We also need to build more sustainable buildings in the wake of devasting Earthquake in the 90&#039;s. We&#039;re in an area of high seimic activity. So even though Armenia has invested in $$ construction- redevelopment should be considered.
-Karabakh is such a fascinating issue- and it scares me to think Armenians are in a dangerzone. This region would be the real solution to regional kinetics---Because--- its development is dependent on  us.  Karabakh&#039;s development is in our hands- its terrain so unique to its current Armenian inhabitants. A peace settlement might push some more Armenians into this once thriving region; i.e. textiles,  (rug-making in my interests), commodities (wood), and rock types (for home), mining (less intensive scale), wine (if im not mistaken), etc. It&#039;s tourism would be a benefit to local residences, embodying a rich cultural legacy (which needs to be settled with the azeris- their stuff is still in ruins). You get my point even though its romantic. Border settlement could also entice World Bank, IMF development (the good guys hopefully).
Work with what you got.
 
 </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article for discussion;<br
/> GDP poor evaluation of livelihood- commenting to someones post<br
/> Land Reparations is feasible for Armenians since, there is tons of documentation regarding this issue (Hilmar Kaiser&#8217;s analysis looks the best). Geno recognition and $$ would definitely suffice Armenia&#8217;s poor (if the money did go there). Territorial Shifts is out of question- especially en route to Black Sea- who&#8217;d be crazy enough to give up port territory- That&#8217;s the central trading mechanism. Look, Karabakh&#8217;s territory is the kentical issue- define the new borders and enforce them internationally- we want the people to be safe; Armenians were defending ourselves (still are).  Any aggression is against Armenians is defense- but the Azeri Idp situation needs to be examined in correlation with sociocultural issues. Anyhow&#8230;<br
/> Regional Kinetics is very nice idea but its application in this article is not what I expected, given the well written article. Regional power dynamics is worth examining however, for example; Russian influence.  The idea is dependency; Armenia relies on Russia Azerbaijan on Turkey; each with their own sets of relationships.<br
/> There is however, regional power dynamics, which is more covert.<br
/> Why would turkey want the border reopened? Here are my suggestions and I do think more extensive research should be done before opening the actual border.<br
/> -Oil pipelines (from the Caspian),<br
/> -Money, not &#8220;flooding the market place.&#8221; But another consumer market that has some sophistication and attraction to Western Goods (possibly). Neoliberalism will DESTROY Armenia&#8217;s people and organic business market; so tougher state policies should be considered for the welfare of Armenians and our businesses. (not socialism).<br
/> -E.U. prospects/make turkey look good blah blah, &#8216;democratization,&#8217; etc.<br
/> -tourism?<br
/> -A corridor to push Kurds (or any ethnicity)  into Armenia? Or open borders to allow warfare for the future?<br
/> -Turkish scholarly and intelligentsia appeal on a global scale<br
/> -University connections<br
/> -Turkey has vast amounts of land; I don&#8217;t see any infrastructural development really happening right away- .<br
/> -We have to ask ourselves, not only what the benefit for Armenia is- but also the regional benefits for state governments (turkey in this case)<br
/>  <br
/> How does this help open border benefit Armenia?<br
/> -First, I think Turkish economic penetration will be limited considering Russia&#8217;s influence in region.  Supposedly, there are already turkish goods in Armenia- so don&#8217;t know the correlation unless these companies develop in Armenia too.<br
/> -Business wise, the rich Armo&#8217;s from Turkey can network and develop relations with the motherland.<br
/> -Armenia&#8217;s committment to Turkey&#8217;s border relations.- political sphere<br
/> -Oil tax revenues from pipeline development.  (but have to be careful where the $$ goes!!)<br
/> -oil companies also employ many fields;<br
/> -exchange of academia<br
/> -appeal to the Karabakh issue?<br
/>  <br
/> -well, I can&#8217;t think of many solutions. This is some sociocultural political significance.  Could potentially disintegrate ethnic hatred for the future (maybe). It makes for an interesting case to really examine the benefits for Armenia right?<br
/> But like some posts I&#8217;ve seen on here, Armenia needs independent solutions to growing problems; especially Karabakh peace settlement. Why? Our people just need to be safe, live sustainability. Armenians don&#8217;t care about all the crazy luxuries, we&#8217;re all about our culture, people, identity, history, music, etc. . Keep things simple within the confines of &#8220;regional kinetics&#8221;<br
/> For example, since Armenia is landlocked it is dependent on other countries. Stronger investment in social capital creates long-term stability. Start with energy for example, Armenia needs to invest money in energy development; getting gas is a pain in the ass&#8212;and we&#8217;re a pretty small country. Eco-friendly solutions should be on the table within the energineering community. Also, if the border is opened and there is oil pipeline/station development- the job rate will definitely grow; you need engineers, architects, planners, construction, etc. With the help of careful investment we can use Armenian arrchitects and engineers to design more culturally appealing and eco-friendly solutions that target the populations needs. We also need to build more sustainable buildings in the wake of devasting Earthquake in the 90&#8217;s. We&#8217;re in an area of high seimic activity. So even though Armenia has invested in $$ construction- redevelopment should be considered.<br
/> -Karabakh is such a fascinating issue- and it scares me to think Armenians are in a dangerzone. This region would be the real solution to regional kinetics&#8212;Because&#8212; its development is dependent on  us.  Karabakh&#8217;s development is in our hands- its terrain so unique to its current Armenian inhabitants. A peace settlement might push some more Armenians into this once thriving region; i.e. textiles,  (rug-making in my interests), commodities (wood), and rock types (for home), mining (less intensive scale), wine (if im not mistaken), etc. It&#8217;s tourism would be a benefit to local residences, embodying a rich cultural legacy (which needs to be settled with the azeris- their stuff is still in ruins). You get my point even though its romantic. Border settlement could also entice World Bank, IMF development (the good guys hopefully).<br
/> Work with what you got.<br
/>  <br
/>  </p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: David Davidian</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-2641</link> <dc:creator>David Davidian</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 02:57:22 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-2641</guid> <description>&lt;!-- 		@page { size: 8.5in 11in; margin: 0.79in } 		P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Root &lt;/strong&gt;wrote to CGarbis:&lt;strong&gt; &lt;em&gt;&quot;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;Remember Turkey shut down the border. So now we are advocating that the Turks continue to do what was orginally designed as a punative measure..and we want to do it to protect us from ourselves. Because Armenians will just go buy anything that Turkey wants to sell us. All of this will cause mass unemployment and Armenian business which currently sell wares in this closed economy will go out of business. How provincial is your thinking.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;em&gt;
&lt;/em&gt;
Provide us with a political and economic analysis that demonstrates opening the border between Armenia and Turkey will benefit anybody. This has been requested several times already. You may actually have an argument and not even know it. All you have provided so far is a wishful affirmative inference for such a border opening.
 
Such a comprehensive study must include a competitive analysis of all major Armenian industries covering at a minimum: management team expertise, product sales &amp; marketing, product planning, market channels and development, government relations, cross-border transportation, international business planning, credit and banking reviews, and yes, accounting practices. Then one must compare these industries with their Turkish counterparts and using Armenian and Turkish demographic buying patterns, determine the viability probability of each industry assuming free and open competition with the added affects of partial and severe protectionism. Past, current and projected trading patterns must be evaluated. In parallel, a comparative study must be done with the only other country having a similar geo-political and economic position and that is Georgia. Such a study must determine why Georgia&#039;s GDP is down nearly 40% from a year ago considering it has free and open trade with Turkey, Azerbaijan, and has many Black Sea ports. This is economics 101 and barely scratches the surface. As far as I have researched no such study exits in the public domain, yet individuals such as yourself claim they can make solid conclusions without any studies. If the study is not accurate, such as not taking into account: general corruption, influence pedaling, nepotism, fraud, racketeering, graft, extortion, cartels, blackmail, potential EC-centric liability and product quality issues, exit strategies for subsequent blockades with a change in the Turkish government, Georgian and Iranian reaction, changes in employment patterns and the consequences of any subsequent brain drain, etc, there is every chance of a failed endeavor. This is no different than starting a war with zero planning or analysis and assuming &quot;our side&quot; will win for no apparent reason.
 
Turkey has reiterated that a solution to the NK conflict must precede any border opening. Such a solution will vastly change any subsequent Turkish border opening and an equivalent study must be done with Azerbaijan as the target including the combines affects of both border openings. None of this effort even takes into account historical issues which served as the basis for this entire commentary.
 </description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><br
/> <strong>Root </strong>wrote to CGarbis:<strong> <em>&#8220;</em></strong><em>Remember Turkey shut down the border. So now we are advocating that the Turks continue to do what was orginally designed as a punative measure..and we want to do it to protect us from ourselves. Because Armenians will just go buy anything that Turkey wants to sell us. All of this will cause mass unemployment and Armenian business which currently sell wares in this closed economy will go out of business. How provincial is your thinking.&#8221;</em><br
/> <em><br
/> </em><br
/> Provide us with a political and economic analysis that demonstrates opening the border between Armenia and Turkey will benefit anybody. This has been requested several times already. You may actually have an argument and not even know it. All you have provided so far is a wishful affirmative inference for such a border opening.<br
/>  <br
/> Such a comprehensive study must include a competitive analysis of all major Armenian industries covering at a minimum: management team expertise, product sales &amp; marketing, product planning, market channels and development, government relations, cross-border transportation, international business planning, credit and banking reviews, and yes, accounting practices. Then one must compare these industries with their Turkish counterparts and using Armenian and Turkish demographic buying patterns, determine the viability probability of each industry assuming free and open competition with the added affects of partial and severe protectionism. Past, current and projected trading patterns must be evaluated. In parallel, a comparative study must be done with the only other country having a similar geo-political and economic position and that is Georgia. Such a study must determine why Georgia&#8217;s GDP is down nearly 40% from a year ago considering it has free and open trade with Turkey, Azerbaijan, and has many Black Sea ports. This is economics 101 and barely scratches the surface. As far as I have researched no such study exits in the public domain, yet individuals such as yourself claim they can make solid conclusions without any studies. If the study is not accurate, such as not taking into account: general corruption, influence pedaling, nepotism, fraud, racketeering, graft, extortion, cartels, blackmail, potential EC-centric liability and product quality issues, exit strategies for subsequent blockades with a change in the Turkish government, Georgian and Iranian reaction, changes in employment patterns and the consequences of any subsequent brain drain, etc, there is every chance of a failed endeavor. This is no different than starting a war with zero planning or analysis and assuming &#8220;our side&#8221; will win for no apparent reason.<br
/>  <br
/> Turkey has reiterated that a solution to the NK conflict must precede any border opening. Such a solution will vastly change any subsequent Turkish border opening and an equivalent study must be done with Azerbaijan as the target including the combines affects of both border openings. None of this effort even takes into account historical issues which served as the basis for this entire commentary.<br
/>  </p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Rootarmo</title><link>http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/06/29/land-reparation-statics-and-dynamics/comment-page-1/#comment-2632</link> <dc:creator>Rootarmo</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:56:59 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=2787#comment-2632</guid> <description>TO Ara Nazarian:Regarding Europe:  By the end of WW II most of Eurpoe was devistated. Including Austria.  One can argue by the end of WW II Armenia was actually better off then many Eurpoean countries that we hold up as models now. Yet in the past 50 years or so those countries were able to rebuild, become stronger then ever.  While Armenia wilted under the rule of the Soviet Union.  By the way in the past 50 years much of Eastern Europe was only at peace because they were essentially controlled by the Soviet Union.   An artifical peace.
Also you forgetting about the Bosnian/Serbian war that resulted in NATO forces to intervene.  So the long and short of it is many countries have had to overcome nasty neighbors.  If Germany and France can make amends... there just might be hope for us.CGarbis:Stop becoming hyseterical and relaize not everyone agrees with you. Those that don&#039;t  agree with you are not traitors. Your basic claim is if the borders open then it will have an adverse impact on Armenia and then Turkey will close the border and thus have another adverse impact. Take your pick.Remember Turkey shut down the border.  So now we are advocating that the Turks continue to do what was orginally designed as a punative measure..and we want to do it to protect us from ourselves.  Because Armenians will just go buy anything that Turkey wants to sell us.  All of this will cause mass unemployment and Armenian business which currently sell wares in this closed economy will go out of business.  How provincial is your thinking.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TO Ara Nazarian:</p><p>Regarding Europe:  By the end of WW II most of Eurpoe was devistated. Including Austria.  One can argue by the end of WW II Armenia was actually better off then many Eurpoean countries that we hold up as models now. Yet in the past 50 years or so those countries were able to rebuild, become stronger then ever.  While Armenia wilted under the rule of the Soviet Union.  By the way in the past 50 years much of Eastern Europe was only at peace because they were essentially controlled by the Soviet Union.   An artifical peace.<br
/> Also you forgetting about the Bosnian/Serbian war that resulted in NATO forces to intervene.  So the long and short of it is many countries have had to overcome nasty neighbors.  If Germany and France can make amends&#8230; there just might be hope for us.</p><p>CGarbis:</p><p>Stop becoming hyseterical and relaize not everyone agrees with you. Those that don&#8217;t  agree with you are not traitors. Your basic claim is if the borders open then it will have an adverse impact on Armenia and then Turkey will close the border and thus have another adverse impact. Take your pick.</p><p>Remember Turkey shut down the border.  So now we are advocating that the Turks continue to do what was orginally designed as a punative measure..and we want to do it to protect us from ourselves.  Because Armenians will just go buy anything that Turkey wants to sell us.  All of this will cause mass unemployment and Armenian business which currently sell wares in this closed economy will go out of business.  How provincial is your thinking.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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