English
ՀայերէնGunaysu: The Jews of Turkey and the Armenian Genocide
A groundbreaking book by independent scholar and historian Rifat Bali was published recently in Turkey, unearthing facts and first-hand accounts that unmistakably illustrate how the Turkish establishment blackmailed the leaders of the Jewish community—and through them Jewish organizations in the United States—to secure their support of the Turkish position against the Armenians’ campaign for genocide recognition. The title of the book, Devlet’in Ornek Yurttaslari –Cumhuriyet Yıllarında Türkiye Yahudileri 1950-2003, can be roughly translated into English as “The Model Citizens of the State–Jews of Turkey in the Republican Period 1950-2003.” (I will refer to the book as “The Model Citizens” in this article.)
The book is a product of the meticulous work Bali carried out for many years at around 15 archives worldwide, including the American Jewish Archives (Cincinatti, Ohio), B’nai B’rith International Archives (Washington, D.C.), National Archives and Records Administration (Maryland), Israeli National Archives (Jerusalem), Central Zionist Archives (Jerusalem), Turkish State Archives (Ankara), public archives in Tel Aviv, private archives (like that of Manajans Thomspson A.S., an advertising agency based in Istanbul), and his personal archives. He also researched hundreds of books, dissertations, and articles in Turkish and other languages, and interviewed numerous individuals.
“The Model Citizens” is in fact the complementary volume of Bir Turklestirme Seruveni–Cumhuriyet Yıllarında Türkiye Yahudileri, 1923-1945 (A Story of Turkification–Jews of Turkey in the Republican Period 1923-1945), a reference book Bali published in 1999 that reveals the true picture of the relations of domination between the ruling elite and non-Muslims in general (and Jews, in particular) after the founding of the Turkish Republic.
Rifat Bali’s books are the richest sources of information for anyone looking to study the history of the non-Muslims in Turkey during the republican period. These books differ from others by their sheer wealth of archival references, details from daily life, and insights into the political, social, and cultural background. They are the result of arduous and untiring work carried out in both the public and private archives, in addition to a very detailed scanning of the daily press—which, apparent in both volumes of the history of the Jews of Turkey, significantly sheds light on how the “establishment” in Turkey, an organic system covering not only the state apparatus but also the representatives of the “civil society” from business organizations to the press, operated as a whole to treat the non-Muslims in Turkey as hostages and not as equal citizens. Although the history of the minorities in Turkey has become a topic of interest among the dissenting academia and a limited circle of intellectuals (especially after the turn of the millennium simultaneously with Turkey’s prospective membership to the European Union), as far as I can see, none of the works in this field is supported by such a comprehensive press scan, which includes cartoons in addition to news items and articles.
Turkish Jews lobbying against the Armenian Genocide
In his 670-page book, Rifat Bali gives a detailed account of the Turkish government’s efforts to mobilize its Jewish subjects to win the support of the Jewish lobby in the United States against the Armenian campaigners. At the same time, Bali shows, how the Turkish authorities played the Israeli government against U.S. policymakers for the same purpose, by making use of its strategic position in the Middle East, at times promising rewards (i.e., raising the level of diplomatic relations with Israel), at times overtly or covertly making threats (i.e., cutting off Israel’s vital military logistical resources by hindering the use of U.S. bases in Turkey).
The book also offers rich material about how Turkish diplomats and semi-official spokesmen of Turkish policies, while carrying out their lobbying activities, threatened both Israel and the U.S. by indicating that if the Jewish lobby failed to prevent Armenian initiatives abroad—Turkey might not be able to guarantee the security of Turkish Jews. Such Armenian initiatives included the screening of an Armenian Genocide documentary by an Israeli TV channel in 1978 and 1990; Armenian participation in an international conference in Israel in 1982; Armenian genocide bills up for discussion in the U.S. House of Representatives, and so on. It has been a routine practice for Turkish authorities to invariably deny such threats. However, Bali’s industrious work in the archives reveals first-hand accounts that confirm these allegations.
But this is not all. Rifat Bali throughout his book unfolds the entire socio-political setting of the process of making the Jewish community leaders active supporters of Turkish governments’ struggle against the “Armenian claims” in the international arena.
Now let us look at this background. From what Bali brings to our attention, we can see that there has always been a frantic, extremely vulgar anti-Semitism freely expressed by Islamic fundamentalists and racists, and openly tolerated by the government and judiciary. Such anti-Semitism—escalating at times with the rising tension between Israel and the Muslim countries of the Middle East—often went as far as warmly praising Hitler for doing the right thing and exterminating the Jews; declaring Jews the enemies of the entire human race; listing characteristics attributed to Jews as the worst that can be found in human beings; in one instance, putting up advertisements on walls in Jewish-populated neighborhoods in Istanbul; and in another case, sending letters to prominent members of the Jewish community threatening that if they didn’t “get the hell out of Turkey” within one month, no one would be responsible for what happened to them.
Whenever Jewish community leaders have approached the authorities for a determined stance against such open anti-Semitism, the answer has been the same: These are marginal voices that have no significant effect on the general public; and there is freedom of expression in Turkey.
The eternal indebtedness of Jews to Turks
An important fact about such violent anti-Semitism is that it goes hand in hand with the widespread official and public conception of the Jews as guests who are indebted to their hosts; it is a debt that cannot be paid no matter how hard the debtors tried. This view isn’t only shared by extremist elements in Turkey, but by the entire society—from the elites to the average person. It is a conviction purposefully designed and maintained by the establishment. And it enables the perpetual, unending, and unrestricted generation and regeneration of the relations of domination in Turkey between the establishment and non-Muslims in general, and Jews in particular, manifested in the treatment of the latter as hostages.
There are regular manifestations of this relationship. The most unbearable is the shameless, extremely offensive repetition by both top-ranking government officials and the mainstream media of how Turkey generously offered shelter to the Jews in 1492, when they were expelled from Spain, and how the Turkish people have always been so “kind” to treat the Jews with “tolerance” throughout history. This theme is repeated on every occasion but is voiced more loudly and more authoritatively whenever pressure on Turkey regarding the Armenian Genocide increases abroad. Another theme has been the obligation of the Jews to show material evidence of their gratitude to Turkey on account of the latter’s welcoming of German Jewish scientists right after the Nazis’ ascension to power. (Readers of Bali’s first volume instantly will remember how Turkey declined thousands of asylum requests by German Jews; how 600 Czeckoslavakian Jews on board the vessel “Parita” were turned down; and how 768 passengers on the Romanian vessel “Struma,” after being kept waiting off Istanbul for weeks in poverty and hunger, were sent to death in the Black Sea by Turkish authorities, with only one survivor in the winter of 1942.)
An illustrative example is the story of the fury that broke out in Turkey in 1987 when the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Council in Washington, D.C. decided to include the Armenian Genocide—as the first genocide of the 20th century— in the Memorial Museum that was going to be built.
The mainstream media, and not only the ultra-nationalist extremists, started a campaign that would last for years. Melih Asik from Milliyet (which has always positioned itself as a liberal and democratic newspaper), in his article on Dec. 20, 1987, accused “Jews” for being “ungrateful.” After observing the regular ritual of reminding the Jews of the Turks’ generosity in 1492 and during World War II, he wrote: “We treated them with utmost kindness for many years and now these same Jews are preparing to present us to the world in the Holocaust museum as genociders. Before everything else this behavior should be exhibited in the museum of ‘historical displays of ingratitude and disgrace.’”
Melih Asik, as can be seen, is so confident that his readers would not question the use of the words “these same Jews,” nor ridicule the identification of those Jews who sought shelter in the Ottoman Empire in 1492 with those sitting in the Holocaust Memorial Museum Council in 1987. He is that confident because he knows that such identification and essentialization is a regular, daily pattern internalized by the readers of the Turkish press.
Another very liberal and democrat anchorman of Turkey, Mehmet Ali Birand, known as a taboo breaker in recent years, joined—and even surpassed—Asik in his Dec. 29, 1987 article that appeared in Milliyet. In it, he publicly called on the Jews of Turkey to fulfill their “duty of gratitude” and do their best to prevent the Armenians from including the Armenian Genocide in the museum. He added: “Isn’t it our right to expect [such a display of gratitude] from every Turkish citizen?” There’s hardly any need to mention that just before this call to duty, Birand paid tribute to the routine of mentioning the Turks’ generosity towards the Jews back in 1492.
Not an apologist at all
Yet, it is important to note that Bali is by no means interested in justifying the Jewish lobby’s vigorous efforts to please the Turkish authorities. While he puts forth a wealth of evidence of the huge pressure the Jewish community in Turkey is subjected to, that evidence does not prevent him from giving a critical account of how the Jewish leadership in Turkey has displayed an eagerness to advocate Turkish views and to support official Turkish policies. There are numerous accounts in the book of how the Turkish chief rabbinate confirmed the Jewish community’s happiness and well-being in Turkey, opposing the promotion of the Armenian Genocide thesis, and how the Quincentennial Foundation, established by Turkish Jewish leaders in 1992 to celebrate the 500th year anniversary of the arrival of the Jews to Ottoman lands, actively championed Turkish official theses.
It is clear from the book that Bali does not like to make comments on the meaning of his findings; rather, he puts the facts together like a scientist, avoiding to make personal comments, draw conclusions, or speculate about the reasons or outcomes of certain facts and events. What he exposes is clear enough to make the picture complete in the eyes of the reader. It’s up to the reader to acknowledge, for example, the fact that those who criticized Turkish Jews for their submissiveness had no right to expect bravery—when none of them raised their voice against the rabid anti-Semitism freely displayed by fundamentalists, or against the innuendos from government officials, or against the quite obvious threats from opinion leaders who kept asking the Jews to prove their loyalty to the Turkish state or relinquish their right to be treated as equal citizens.
A last word about Rifat Bali’s book “Model Citizens.” It should definitely be translated into English for those who are interested in the Jewish factor in Turkey’s struggle against Armenian initiatives to recognize the genocide. It would be impossible for anyone either in Turkey or elsewhere to make a realistic, objective, and complete evaluation of Turkey’s success in securing the support of Jewish leaders both in Turkey and abroad without reading this book. Not only that, but the “Model Citizens” is a guide to understanding how deeply rooted anti-Semitism still is in Turkey that claims to be a European country knocking on the door of the EU. It also shows how powerful it can be when mobilizing a country’s human resources against its Jewish citizens—to make the leaders of the Jewish community act as they are told. Turning the pages of Bali’s book, the reader is made to see that anti-Semitism has a historical context so horrifying and so vivid in the collective memory that it can be very instrumental in manipulating victims, and very successful in carving out “model citizens” as the voluntary executioners of government policies.
Comments
By Manooshag on July 20th, 2009 at 9:05 am
Hye, from Canberra Times (Australia – 07-18-09)
“KILLERS WHO FLOUT THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH” – re the Armenian Genocide….
Dr. Mehmed Resid, who shortly before he killed himself, admitted
“My Turkishness prevailed over my medical calling.”
Manooshag
By Charlie Bell on July 20th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
I lived in the Fresno area for awhile and we had some very good Armenian friends there. That was the first time I had heard anything about the Armenian genocide. It sounds like the book that was reviewed has not been translated into English. However I will begin to look for more information on that period of time. Thank you for sparking my interest in this subject. I work for Footnote.com which is a historical document and genealogical research site. I am always interested in reviewing history and specific incidents. This is one that I have had interest in for quite some time!
Thanks again
By Gayane on July 20th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
It is unfortunate that we know the truth, we know what is going on yet we can’t do anything about it..it is mind blowing to know that Turkey after all this, still can stand and preach democracy, freedom of speech and how civilized and collective society they are…
I am just happy that we have people like Rifat and others who put their lives on line to publish the truth get their word out.. I just hope that sooner than later the world comes to a realization that Turkey is working under false and wrong pretense and get all their dirt out of water once and for all….
I am tired of reading over and over again about how Turkey is using its evil claws to gather up all the power to use against every single man who stands up against it… ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.. our leaders should wake up and smell the evil that is represented by this entity called Turkey…
This book needs be published in English. This book needs to be circulated among the people all over the world.. the more we share with the world, the better chance we have educating everyone what truly goes on in the depths of the eviland Turkey.
G
By Sevan on July 20th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
As an Armenian of Istanbul I know very well the role of Jewish Organizations in blockading the Armenian Genocide Resolution in the American Congress.It’s an undeniable fact that Israel and Turkey are two twin Jewish states in the Middle East and even Muslim Turkish intellectuals recognize this fact.The Sabbateans and other Crypto Jews in Turkey founded the secular Republic of Turkey and by annihilating Christian subjects they became the kings and queens of the new Turkish Republic in all spheres like Business,Art,Military,Bureaucracy.There are so strong that only a few Turks had the chance to enter the Turkish Foreign Ministry and most of the Turkish Foreign Ministers were of Sabbatean origin like Tevfik Rustu Aras,Tansu Çiller or İsmail Cem İpekçi etc.Today there is an internal war between the Sabbatean elite and the sympathizers of the rulling AKP in Turkey.Wish that AKP will prevail and the dark rulling elite of this country will become history.
By vartan on July 21st, 2009 at 7:41 am
non è la prima volta che gli ebrei in turchia disconoscono le atrocità turche verso gli armeni per salvare il collo
baciare la mano al carnefice è un tentativo di salvarsi il collo
By Varoujan on July 22nd, 2009 at 6:12 pm
My address is to Sevan, the brave Armenian who lives in Istanbul. God bless you, how beautiful and to the point your comment is. The fact about Crypto Jews and their influence before and after the Armenian Genocide is not well published in books and articles. Although recently it is becoming more publicized, but it needs to be addressed more and studied more scientifically.
By Sevan on July 23rd, 2009 at 9:39 pm
it’s the bitter reality.The same was done to the Greeks,they were also a brilliant community.Today there are only 2000 Greeks left in Turkey.Armenians and Greeks were older ennemies for the Jews than the Arabs or Persians.Armenians and the Greeks were in constant rivalry against the Jews for the High positions in the Ottoman Empire.Armenians were only 10% in the city of İzmir but they were controlling 80% of the city’s commerce.They were the biggest exporters in that city.They were even more brilliant than the Greeks.The Turks who are not ignorant on this issue and it’s really hard to find them are surprised when they learn these facts and asking how could it be possible that the Empire liquidated its most sophisticated population?Well the answer is very easy.Sultan Mahmut II who can be called as the Peter the Great of the Ottoman Empire was financed by Armenian Bankers.As a reformator he saw that the Janissary Army was no longer in capacity to defend the Empire against modern standing armies.He treid to abolish it.Jewish bankers like Isaya Aciman or Behor Çelebi Carmona resisted against the Sultan’s decision because they were using the Janissaries to collect their money lendings.It was a kind of mafia during that period.The Sultan had enough of these people.The Janissary Order was abolished and the Jewish Bankers were hanged including Behor Çelebi Carmona who was a high figure in the Jewish community and the one of the most richest men in the Empire.Well the Jews never forgot this action.Still today in Turkey Jews commemorate the killing of Behor Carmona with a ceremony.After the elimination of Jewish Power the Armenians became the Kings of the Kings in the Empire until the Young Turk rule.Theodor Herzl writes in his memoirs that after the refusal by Sultan Abdülhamit to sell Palestine to the Jews,he contacted the Young Turks who were in exile in European cities like Paris.Another ‘coincidence’ is that the Young Turk newspaper was published by a famous Zionizt figure Wladimir Jabotinsky.Emmanuel Carasso, another jewish figure who helped the Young Turks to get international assistance can also be called as a ‘coincidence’.Dear friends Armenians have mostly Armenian names.I live in Turkey and my name is Sevan.But the Jews even those who are not secret Jews like Mr.Bali have muslim names like Rıfat or Kemal or Selim.The jew takes the name Nicolas in France like Nicolas Sarkozy(his mother was a Salonican Jewess member of the Mazliyah family).In Russia the Jew takes the name Vladimir like Lenin or Oligarch Gussinski.In Austria his name would be Bruno like Bruno Kreisky.In America he would be named Richard like Holbrooke and this goes on and on.If the Jew feels embarrassed by the overwhelming majority,he would convert to Islam or Christianity and remain Jewish in the bottom of his heart.The Armenian character is different,he would die but rare are those who change their religion even for hiding he would never deny his faith.Well it’s a good thing but it’s false if your life is in danger than you must convert for a while than after gaining security you can easily reconvert to Christianity.That was one of our biggest mistakes.The Jews learned this science in their thousands years of Diasporan Life.I hope that my writings were instructive.God bless you Varoujan and Dear Armenian Compatriots.Don’t forget ‘One Nation,One Culture’.Armenians are still alive on every corner of the Planet and we reestablished our Homeland and Artsakh is free.Go and visit these places you will be proud.I have a Chechen friend and he confessed me that he admires our nation.Today we have more than my Chechen friend’s best dreams.Never forget this fact.
By Elif Bayramgil on July 26th, 2009 at 6:05 am
Dear Sevan, it’s unbelievable that such racist words appear in Armenian Weekly. I am too from Turkey, an ethnic Turk (well, not a crypto Jew or Sabbetean!), who firmly believe that Turkey should recognise the Armenian genocide and who is a loyal reader of Armenian Weekly. I am shocked to read your message. How can anyone derive such feelings and thoughts from Gunaysu’s article? Either you read only the title and not the article itself, or your hatred of Jews is so strong that you couldn’t understand what you read. It’s very sad to see that nobody objected your hateful words about Jews. Isn’t there somebody to say no to such openly racist words?
By RootArmo on July 27th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Sevan:
You wrote:
As an Armenian of Istanbul I know very well the role of Jewish Organizations in blockading the Armenian Genocide Resolution in the American Congress.
How does you living in Istanbul make you have better insight into what is going in halls of Congress ?
Sevan, you have a lot of time on your hands, stop thinking about the Jews. Your not brave for living in Turkey, it just happens to be where you live. Furthermore your obsessed with issues that are beyond your intellectual ability. Go read a few books.
By Antranig on July 27th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Why Elif hanim you look too upset about Sevan’s article? There is a part of reality in the writings of Mr.Sevan after all the minister of finance of Young-Turk governement was also of Jewish origin mr,Cavid who has been hanged 1926 by Mustafa Kemal-accused of comploting against him.The Armenians are the first to honnor all those Jews who defended Armenians with great humanity like Henry MORGENTAU,Franz Welfer and others and nowdays Hair ORON,Israel Charny;but let us to hate all those jews who complote on our back by defending a genocidal country like Turkey
By Maya on July 28th, 2009 at 4:34 am
What about Mr. Five Percent ; Was he a Jew or a Turk who changed his name to Armenian?
By ED on July 31st, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Very sad to read Sevan’s comments in Armenian Weekly. They are not only factually incorrect, but send the kind of message that I believe only very few readers of AW would share or support.
By Grish Begian on August 1st, 2009 at 4:29 am
Dear Sevan, I have no idea why we Armenians should argue for Jews…Jews are well aware of Armenian Genocide..there is no doubt in my mind… unfortunately there are some selfish Jews in this world, where they think they were the only ones in a dark chimney and nobody else suffered the way Jews suffered … I have a Jewish friend, and he strongly agree with me…….
By Sevan on August 3rd, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Jews are great people they ressurected their ancient homeland and Israel is a mini-America in the desert of the Middle East.At lokk at the Armenians we have billionaires all around the world including in Turkey and we can’t use this potential for our tiny Armenia.Only a few idealists spent their finances to help our Motherland.The A
By Sevan on August 3rd, 2009 at 4:15 pm
The Armenian Diaspora is too focused on the 1915 Genocide issue.I am not saying that this struggle is wrong but without a strong Armenia we will reexperience the same tragedies and the time has come to do something.Every Armenian should visit Armenia and help it wherever he/she can.I live in Istanbul I visited it twice.I will also visit Armenia this autumn.
By Denis Ojalvo on August 5th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Sevan,
You seem knowledgable in recent Turkish history, however your rhetoric is reminiscent of the polished Islamic fundamentalists who seek to drive a wedge between Jews and Armenians, accusing the former of using the Comittee of Union and Progress to wipe out the commercial competition of the latter. This is sophisticated BLACK PROPAGANDA and an ugly lie !
You should refrain from disseminating that disinformation.
Secondly, inspite the fact that you write under an Armenian name (Sevan) nothing proves that you are indeed an Armenian. I invite you to disclose your full name so that anyone interested could check whether you are a real Armenian or an impostor !
Denis
By Rootarmo on August 5th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Denis…with a name like yours you should hardly be accusing others of not being armenian.
By Denis Ojalvo on August 6th, 2009 at 6:50 am
Dear Rootarmo,
Mine is a Jewish name What’s wrong with it?
Besides, I don’t have the habit of hiding my identity. I always sign my pieces with my real name and and surname.
Do I have to be Armenian in order to be accredited to emit a reserve?
The canard that Jews are behind the Armenian genocide is an Antisemitic one, invented by Muslim fundamentalists seeking to involve Jews in the Turkish-Armenian contentious.
Some Turks who wish to reconcile with Armenians and some Armenians who wish to reconcile with the Turks for whatever reason, propagate that canard so that the blame is shifted on Jews !
Each of these parties have their own motivation:
1- The Fundamentalist religious Turks, wish to discredit the actual Republic of Turkey by discrediting its predecessor, The Committe of Union and Progress, whose ruling elite, except its leaders, was coopted by the Republican regime. The easiest way to do this is to accuse the the CUP members of being Jews or Crypto-Jews. Thogh there were some influential Jews in the CUP movement, these were not involved in the Armenian issue. I invite those who try to impute such a crime on Jews to provide evidencing documents to that effect.
2- The Armenians who wish to find a short-cut exit from the stalemate in the political process, have all the interest to split the Turkish public opinion by inducing it to repudiate the CUP and its residues in the Kemalist Turkish Republic. In this respect they find the approach adopted by Islamist fundamentalists as explained above quite convenient. However, for “practical” reasons they refrain from adopting that position regarding the Jews’ responsibilities in the Armenian Genocide officially and publicly.
On the other hand, the Armenian establishment makes no move to belie or condemn the propagation of this Antisemitic canard. They should do so ! The sooner the better !
That is the sad truth.
Denis
p.s. I still have doubts on Sevan’s real identity. Why doesn’t he speak out loud and clear?
By Patrick B. on August 6th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
To Denis, (Addressing your call for Armenian support against Antisemitism)
You have your facts straight, and have a knowledgeable understanding of the situation on the Democratic front. But understand that Armenia has no reason to support any facet of Israel, or negative propaganda towards Israel because of the simple fact that Israel is not in support of the Armenian Genocide recognition. In fact, Israel has allied itself with Azerbaijan in support of reclaiming lands (Nagarno-Karabagh) falsely, and illegally handed over to the Azei regime.
Both ourt people have faced horrors. What the Jewish community doesn’t understand ( a majority, we still have Jewish supporters) is that by the Turkish government, being able to get away with the massacre of 1.5 million people, opened the doors to Hitler and his Holocaust of the Jews. Were the Armenian Genocide condemned, recognized, and prosecuted, there would have been no Holocaust. And for this parallel to be questioned, and not addressed, Armenians (atleast me) see no reason to help our Jewish counterparts, unless they start to support us open, and willingly.
By Sevan on August 6th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Ojalvo is a sephardim jew and my comments are deleted especially my comment on the high society should be added.
By Sevan on August 6th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
To Ojalvo My Father and my mother are armenian,all my ancestors are armenians we don2t m arry others for me it’s a sin to marry a non-armenian I have nothing to hide.You think that you are too intelligent.I send many comments but the administarator deleted them it’s not my fault and yes I support the so called Islamists in Turkey despite the fact that I am christian we have enough of the Sabbatean Kemal Ataturk and his dirty Kemalism
By Denis Ojalvo on August 8th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Dear Rootarmo,
The fact that Israel sides with the Azeris in the Nagorno Karabakh dispute has nothing to do with the Armenian establishment’s of not condemning libelous canards imputing the onus of the Armenian genocide on the Ottoman Jews. You certainly know that for realpolitik purposes the Armenian government bestowed an honorary doctorate to the genocidal Ahmedinejad !!!
The relations between Armenia and Israel are one thing, and the relations between Armenians and Jews are something else.
Regarding Sevan,his remarks that marrying others than Armenians is a sin, sound quite racist. Personally, I have many Armenian friends and I can assure you that they are quite liberal and see no sin in marrying people from other nations. His very remark therefore makes me doubt on his real identity. I bet he is not Armenian ! He sounds more like an “Agent provocateur” of the Islamist fundamentalist ilk.
Denis
By Denis Ojalvo on August 8th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Dear Patrick B,
By inadvertance I addressed my comments destined to you, to Rootarmo.
Yours,
Denis
By Denis Ojalvo on August 10th, 2009 at 3:59 am
Mr. Editor, Mr. Moderator,
I suggest you check the identities of your commenting readers, since some may most likely be using Armenian names in order to disseminate disinformation, hiding behind that identity.
You could easily spot these in case you review their opinions on a given period of time.
Yours,
Denis
By Grish Begian on August 10th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
With all respect to above notes and comments…
Israel must recognize the truth of “Armenian Genocide”.
Armenians and Jewish people suffered and persecuted by none Jews and none Armenians ..it is time for us to understand and recognize the agony, and the pain of “Genocide” and “Holocaust”..,
Thanks
By Sylva-MD-Poetry on August 11th, 2009 at 3:21 am
Being born from Armenian mother and father it does not mean you are Armenian.
Neither knowing the language.
Armenians are Armenians by their heart and dedication
and not by their tongues.
Politics nothing to do with people.
Politicians are group of people try to change the unchangeable.
Earth poets are well know to write against politics.
Read the collection of poems “Politcs Play People Pay, Poets Proms Pledging Pray” in Amazon.
By Grish Begian on August 11th, 2009 at 3:49 am
It is good to know what happening in the land of the free and home of the brave..
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7055
By Sevan on August 11th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
…From the mountains to the sea(Sevan)God Bless Armenia my home sweet home:)
Rootarmo I love u man because you have armenian blood in your veins.All Armenians will be united one day…I respect very much our Mother Church but I have a pagan belief about the Armenians.When an Armenian dies he/she goes to an Armenian heaven and joins the other Armenian souls.A Christian heaven doesn’t interest me.All our souls will be united in heaven.
By Sevan on August 11th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
I would prefer to burn in heaven thousand times with all my family and clan.My tongue could be cut off and also my head,my eyes goughed before dying and it would be a better ending for me rather to see my people assimilated and our beloved Armenia erased from the face of the earth.That are my sincere feelings and I have nothing to prove to nobody about Armenianess.I have done a lot for my people and think still that it’s not enough.The Armenians hanging in L.A,Paris,Boston or elsewhere can call me a bastard if they at least visit one time Armenia as an ordinary tourist.
By Sevan on August 11th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
My Armenianess is more valuable because I am from Istanbul.People including the most nationalistic parts of our D
By Sevan on August 11th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Diaspora would better assimilate if they were in my place…We survived the fire and even today we are lions and can walk on the street with a smile on our face…
By Sevan on August 11th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
It’s very easy to speak about Armenian issues and Armenia even in Iran which Ojalvo calls as a ‘genocidal state’ which is completely erronous.I knew many Iranians and I only heard sympathetic words from them on our people.It’s hard to show your sympathy for Armenia in a hostile atmosphere.People can risk his/her life for it.We are the sons of Hrant Dink who was also a lion…
By emre on August 12th, 2009 at 1:38 am
“I support the so called Islamists in Turkey despite the fact that I am christian…”
Can’t you guys tell when an Islamist is yanking your chain? This “sevan” character could hardly make his identity any clearer.
By Grish Begian on August 13th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Dear Sevan,
You are a great Armenian in Turkey and you are one of “the sons of Hrant Dink” why don’t
you raise your voice in Turkey and and tell your countrymen ” truth of Armenian Genocide”.. I am sure your civilized Turkish Government will help you to reach out to millions of Turks, who never heard of Genocide of their own Christian population, I recommend you send your great comments to “Today’s Zaman” newspaper……
Unlike Turkey we have freedom of speech and we do not have “penal code 301″ this is why we are hearing your garages…..
By Sevan on August 13th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Dear Grish I sent many comments to the Zaman newspaper but only a few were published.You know who owns this newspaper,they are the force behind the current government.You really don’t understand what I am saying…
By Sevan on August 13th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
The current government in Turkey is good for me for the Armenians and also for Armenia trust me brothers and sisters
By Denis Ojalvo on August 14th, 2009 at 3:53 am
Mr. Sevan, or whoever you really are,
I did not call Iran a genocidal state but said that Ahmedinejad was genocidal, and if you like “staticidal” as per his remarks of wiping out Israel from the map. Obviously he can not do this without wiping out the Jews living there.
While bestowing the honorary doctorate to the luminary in question, the University of Yerevan somehow disregarded that minor detail !!
Denis
By Aaron Aarons on August 20th, 2009 at 8:56 am
I came across this page in searching for information about the role of Jews in the Young Turk movement and the alleged Jewish involvement in the slaughter of the Armenians. I happen to be of (New York) Jewish ethnicity myself, which helps stimulate my interest in such topics.
The first point I’ll make is that Ahmedinejad never said anything in any language that could be translated as threatening to “wipe Israel off the map”, in the violent sense of that English idiom. (Ironically, one can’t exactly ”wipe Israel off the map” in the cartographer’s sense, since the Zionist state has never provided a map that shows its claimed borders!) And neither Ahmedinejad nor the Iranian state is genocidal in its treatment of minorities, while both Israel and Turkey are!
I don’t, however, think one should be calling on the U.S. Congress to label what any other governments have done as “genocide” until that Congress has applied that label to what the U.S. has done to the Native Americans, to the enslaved Africans, to the peoples of Southeast Asia and Central America, etc.. Otherwise, you’re just helping the U.S. rulers to prettify themselves by condemning the crimes of others, as they have done with the Nazi mass murders of Jews and others.
By Armenian_Hay on November 2nd, 2009 at 9:58 am
Sorry to be “late”,
I have to say, specialy to Mr.OJALVO, that, my grand father born in Anatolia in 1899 and refugiee in France, used to told us ( his friends or relatives), the same short sentence which synthesizes the Sevan’s long declaration.
By respect for Mrs.Günaysü, I wan’t cite that sentence. Even more, the risponsibility of a discrete oligarchy must not soil an entire community. You can read a very short remark on the condamnable behavior of some jews (named louts) in the book “Ailleurs, Hier, Autrement- le Génocide des Arméniens” published by “La Revue de la Shoah”
http://www.librairie-memorialdelashoah.org/ficheproduit.asp?pid=11E1A65A&rid=BEBC212&uid=081129224907835598
This is just an information. Everyone interested must know it and search to make his own opinion. It a matter of universal morality.
In fact, the upper class of Armenian community was greatly wealthy until the middle of the XIX century. One doesn’t have any explanation of its decline (for those who can read french or translate electronically):
http://perso.magic.fr/jaki.aladin/famille_dadian.htm
Take these informations just for what they are…
Don’t be mistaken on fight.
By Denis Ojalvo on November 2nd, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Dear Hay,
I opened the link you gave.
There, I could not find any hint to what you suggest in your message.
So, I will suggest that you make a full quote from that book.
You don’t need to translate it. My French is adequate.
Yours,
Denis
By Armenian_Hay on November 3rd, 2009 at 5:45 am
Mr.OJALVO,
would you underline that part of my message.
I’ll send you the quote.
Generaly speaking, I have made my own small ‘biblio’ and I can always cite my references… or send copies by Air-mail.
Regards
A_H
By Denis Ojalvo on November 3rd, 2009 at 8:04 am
Dear Hay,
I was drawn into useless polemics because of Sevan’s following libelous canard:
QUOTE
It’s an undeniable fact that Israel and Turkey are two twin Jewish states in the Middle East and even Muslim Turkish intellectuals recognize this fact.The Sabbateans and other Crypto Jews in Turkey founded the secular Republic of Turkey and by annihilating Christian subjects they became the kings and queens of the new Turkish Republic in all spheres like Business,Art,Military,Bureaucracy.
UNQUOTE
This is an ugly lie and a cheap defamation. Sevan’s subsequent assertions give full proof that he adopts the rhetoric of Moslem fundamentalists who wish to delegitimize the secular Turkish Republic by imputing on it a Jewish identity and by disseminating the lie that the Republic of Turkey is the fruit of a Jewish conspiracy.
The fact that you took Sevan’s rants as a referral, induced me to answer. However, from your message I couldn’t ascertain to which one of his lies you were referring.
I think that GOOD FAITH is quintessential if we are going to conduct a civilized dialogue.
Sevan’s rhetoric makes all efforts in this direction futile.
I sincerely invite the “accredited” Armenian instances to endorse or publicly repudiate Sevan’s above quoted allegations.
Yours,
Denis
By Armenian_Hay on November 4th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Denis,
I see, in fact, you meant Sevan’s talk.
I check books and papers that I can retrieve and send you some interesting scanned papers or photographies.
A practical questions is : “where is the link to attach file to comment, on this site ?”
May I suggest you to create an Anonymous Mail Box to receive those files?
Give my 4 or 5 days to collect and scan.
Regards
A_H
By Denis Ojalvo on November 4th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Dear Hay,
You may send your photos and docs to my e-mail: serveks@tnn.net
All the best,
Denis
By robert hoffman on November 19th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
dear denis and sevan.i am a jewish scholar of armenian studies.while it is true that the israeli and american governments and establishments do not recognize the armenian genocide;the overwhelming majority of jews and armenians do fully believe in the horrific genocid in syria lebanones that befell their peoples.the exact same is true of the current armenian govt,and the establishments of armenians in syria,lebanon,jordan iraq,egypt and turkey who never support israel in the face of arab lies and vicious propaganda.that i can undeerstand as realpolitik on both sides.what is difficult to comprehend is ;why armeian scholars have never collectively sided with israel.yes,many times jewish scholars and intellectuals have always publicly supported the armeian cause as sevan has stated.
By Krikor on January 25th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
After reading what everyone had to say whether they are Armenians or not, is not the issue. Look on the bright side of everything. What happened in the past was a terrible crime against humanity. When a child commits a mistake against his brother the parent teaches that child to apologize to his brother. That was the model role of a parent in charge, but in that only happens to children. As for grown ups the rules of discipline do not comply!!! But, the day will come even though denying sounds easy to some, they will have to accept the facts and then it will be so ever more shamefull !!!!!!!
By Henry Dumanian on January 25th, 2010 at 7:55 pm
Mr. Hoffman,
I can’t speak for Armenian intellectuals — but it is a possibility that they do not in fact agree with Israeli policies of today. And second, it goes beyond the “realpolitik” of the Armenian and Israeli governments. Organized American Jewry has opposed the term “genocide” for a very long time — and even now, after accepting it rather reluctantly, have yet to side with us on the recognition issue. The correct analogy would be the Armenian government’s respone to the Holocaust in trying to warm ties with Iran. Armenia and its Diaspora are not on an ACTIVE campaign to stop Holocaust recognition or affirmation, as are the Jews and the Israeli government. The comparison is bogus.
But if we’re talking about intellectuals — the greatest deniers in academia are Jewish — Heath Lowry, Bernard Lewis, etc.
(And I don’t want to get into how the Armenians have been treated in Israel…meanwhile the Jews in Armenia have probably enjoyed one of the most constant periods of peace ANYWHERE in the world).
By Ferhat on January 26th, 2010 at 3:04 am
I would hate to see a widening gap between Armenians and Jews. Both of your peoples suffered terrible massacres and mass executions on the hands of Ottoman Turks and German Nazis.
Once again, turks are coming out smart due to their 1000 year political diplomacy, whereas Armenians are falling into this trap built exclusively by turks. Their aim is to seperate Armenians from Jews. Do not fall into this useless claims that “Jews were responsible for the Genocide,” this is all the making of the Ottoman tuks and their German friends to weaken both Armenia and Israel.
It was the ottoman turks that committed the Genocide, and not the Jews.
Israel will come to recognize the Genocide.
Turkish killing machine will and shall end soon.
Turks caused innumerable deaths of innocent Greeks, Armenians, Albanians, Hungaryans, Bulgarians, Serbians, Austrians, Jews, Romanians and the list is too damn long.
Turks repeatedly call Armenians, Kurds and Hungarians as the three peoples who succumbed easily under turkish onslaught. Just last week a Hungarian national was beaten by three alleged “grey wolves” punks in Adana, calling the poor Hungarian a “pig,” a reference for his Christian belief, telling him to go back to Buda(an apparent reference to Budapest), and his girlfriend manhandled, almost raped. They sprayed the number 121,001, apparently calling the poor and helpless Hungarian as their victim #121,001. Such arrogance the world has never seen before.
Ferhat