Comments on: Marashlian: Accepting the History Sub-Commission Is Like Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/10/28/marashlian-accepting-the-history-sub-commission-is-like-snatching-defeat-from-the-jaws-of-victory/ Published by the Hairenik Association, Inc. Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:45:42 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Arpihttp://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/10/28/marashlian-accepting-the-history-sub-commission-is-like-snatching-defeat-from-the-jaws-of-victory/comment-page-1/#comment-4944 Arpi Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:12:43 +0000 http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=4394#comment-4944 Love the snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...that's exactly what it is (although I'm not sure how close we were to victory). The whole thing makes me ill. How could anyone think the deck would not be stacked against the Armenians in this case (in any case)? For God's sake, power is on the side of evil, no? Turkey? The US? Who stands for truth and justice these days? Not the big boys who pull the strings, that's for sure. Again, I feel ill. I can hardly stand to read the back and forth. We are the world's most gullible people. Love the snatching defeat from the jaws of victory…that’s exactly what it is (although I’m not sure how close we were to victory). The whole thing makes me ill. How could anyone think the deck would not be stacked against the Armenians in this case (in any case)? For God’s sake, power is on the side of evil, no? Turkey? The US? Who stands for truth and justice these days? Not the big boys who pull the strings, that’s for sure. Again, I feel ill. I can hardly stand to read the back and forth. We are the world’s most gullible people.

]]> By: Samvel Jeshmaridian, PhDhttp://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/10/28/marashlian-accepting-the-history-sub-commission-is-like-snatching-defeat-from-the-jaws-of-victory/comment-page-1/#comment-4903 Samvel Jeshmaridian, PhD Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:23:45 +0000 http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=4394#comment-4903 The historical sub-committee not a problem. The problem is Mr. Bazaz, Mr. Aghvan Hovsepyan, Dr. Radik Martirosyan, and Mr. Kocharyan. <a href="mailto:jeshmarid@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow">jeshmarid@yahoo.com</a> The historical sub-committee not a problem. The problem is Mr. Bazaz, Mr. Aghvan Hovsepyan, Dr. Radik Martirosyan, and Mr. Kocharyan.
jeshmarid@yahoo.com

]]> By: gaytzag Palandjianhttp://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/10/28/marashlian-accepting-the-history-sub-commission-is-like-snatching-defeat-from-the-jaws-of-victory/comment-page-1/#comment-4902 gaytzag Palandjian Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:06:12 +0000 http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=4394#comment-4902 Levon Marashlian´s  arguments are very much to the point.One can very well surmise that turkish diplomacy  is ,has been steadfastly  making efforts to divert international(especially worldwide international) attention from already PROVEN facts by  above  mentioned commissions ,thus gaining precious time for their "other" intended projects.Viz., firstly to delay Armenian Genocide recognition,as long as possible,secondly to by and by distort actual  history -facts ,as much as possible  in the eyes of the int´l public,making  the authenticity of  it less so,thridly and this above all, weaken Armenian unanimousity -as to pursuit of our goals-rendering it incapable of bringing it to a final decision favourable  to our righteous demands for reparations. I ,personally do not believe ,cannot bring myself to it,that even if we gain recognition by many more states(what Prof.Yves Ternon indirectly advised a gathering  of ours ,at 17 Rue Bleu;Paris,April 9,2009)ending his discourse by" Parlement a Parlement"..we cannot go on the premise of a Sevres Treaty ,not even ratified by U.S. Congress,claiming  the 6 Vilayets... In spanish a saying goes:-"uno tambien puede vivir sonañdo" One can also live by dreams... A. There are 16 million k  u  r  d  s    on the Western Armenian lands today.They cannot by any means be removed from those lands.We may indeed conduct negotiations with them dialogue with them to come to a mutually acceptal land parceling out(if  that comes to pass  indeed).Best we can hope for  ,is a third  of  it  or so,or even less... B.What indeed we can claim  is BLOOD MONEY-precedents of which exist. On another Armenian site an attorney just back from Armenia ,where he participated at the Mindiaspora´s organized Conference(this by the by this servidor-myself  had suggested  several times over that instead  of like the 2002 and 2006 and the First Armenia-Diaspora Conference,two thousand  meeting at once..should be classified as per work -profession type).This gentleman, very kindly pretends to have Armenians repatriate to Homeland etc.,-always on (each one  on  his own-meaning each Armenian present org. on own) and with   meagre  American style fund raising.. Comes to mind just a few days ago CIVILITAS foundation´s ..even $100.- a piece contributions... How can big projects in such  fashion have any tangible success-go figure that  out-Like the Founder, then FM at last 2006 Conference declared  with  $50.- a piece gift baskets(full of Armenian dry fruits) to  be sold in all Diaspora churches ,organizations, and with funds obtained reach the far flung Armenian villages  and revive  them ,stopping immigration etc.,.¡ C.great Turkey knows(their diplomacy,i.e.) full well that Armenians are an un-organized  lot and by dividing them further through this same protocols..they  can attain their objective  of keeping, especially the Armenian Diaspora, in such a status quo,which suits them perfectly.No unanimity. D. If we really mean business, then we must put  our own house  (the  Diaspora) in order,before attempting to size  up with them.They very cunningly ( I  never think they are clever)manueuvered  the RA´s erroneous initiative-for  I think it was ours-of uttering"without any preconditions".. Imagine a people,now a nation/state,who has been so much persecuted by grat Turkey is forthcoming with such an invitation...it should have been vice versa...bygones are bygones. Nonetheless, not too late, to hinder  the PROCESS.It must be hindered ,it (both RA and Diaspora)should now take measures to prevent  it from going further,unless at the very least Genocide Recognition is inclusive  of negotiations ahead. Most important if we aspire to some day become stronger as both a republic and Diaspora,ties between these two segments  of our people ought to be thoroughly studied  and strengthened.Just by declaring "Ari Dun"..and/or said attorney´s haphazard aid or Civilitas¨s  fundling -raisings...we cannot achieve our objectives.Mobilize  we must and that on a nationwide,programmed mode.My humble "paper" that  for 4.5 years was on the Armeniadiaspora.com site ,has suggested the "mechanism" for getting the Diaspora-Armenia enhanced relation rolling.Now it is on my own site .Please visit  it,it is  on top of  my web page www.ARMENENIDAD-worldwide.org  (2006 Conference).And thanks for reading me. Hama Haigagani Siro, gaytzag palandjian Levon Marashlian´s  arguments are very much to the point.One can very well surmise that turkish diplomacy  is ,has been steadfastly  making efforts to divert international(especially worldwide international) attention from already PROVEN facts by  above  mentioned commissions ,thus gaining precious time for their “other” intended projects.Viz., firstly to delay Armenian Genocide recognition,as long as possible,secondly to by and by distort actual  history -facts ,as much as possible  in the eyes of the int´l public,making  the authenticity of  it less so,thridly and this above all, weaken Armenian unanimousity -as to pursuit of our goals-rendering it incapable of bringing it to a final decision favourable  to our righteous demands for reparations.
I ,personally do not believe ,cannot bring myself to it,that even if we gain recognition by many more states(what Prof.Yves Ternon indirectly advised a gathering  of ours ,at 17 Rue Bleu;Paris,April 9,2009)ending his discourse by” Parlement a Parlement”..we cannot go on the premise of a Sevres Treaty ,not even ratified by U.S. Congress,claiming  the 6 Vilayets…
In spanish a saying goes:-”uno tambien puede vivir sonañdo” One can also live by dreams…
A. There are 16 million k  u  r  d  s    on the Western Armenian lands today.They cannot by any means be removed from those lands.We may indeed conduct negotiations with them dialogue with them to come to a mutually acceptal land parceling out(if  that comes to pass  indeed).Best we can hope for  ,is a third  of  it  or so,or even less…
B.What indeed we can claim  is BLOOD MONEY-precedents of which exist. On another Armenian site an attorney just back from Armenia ,where he participated at the Mindiaspora´s organized Conference(this by the by this servidor-myself  had suggested  several times over that instead  of like the 2002 and 2006 and the First Armenia-Diaspora Conference,two thousand  meeting at once..should be classified as per work -profession type).This gentleman, very kindly pretends to have Armenians repatriate to Homeland etc.,-always on (each one  on  his own-meaning each Armenian present org. on own) and with   meagre  American style fund raising..
Comes to mind just a few days ago CIVILITAS foundation´s ..even $100.- a piece contributions…
How can big projects in such  fashion have any tangible success-go figure that  out-Like the Founder, then FM at last 2006 Conference declared  with  $50.- a piece gift baskets(full of Armenian dry fruits) to  be sold in all Diaspora churches ,organizations, and with funds obtained reach the far flung Armenian villages  and revive  them ,stopping immigration etc.,.¡
C.great Turkey knows(their diplomacy,i.e.) full well that Armenians are an un-organized  lot and by dividing them further through this same protocols..they  can attain their objective  of keeping, especially the Armenian Diaspora, in such a status quo,which suits them perfectly.No unanimity.
D. If we really mean business, then we must put  our own house  (the  Diaspora) in order,before attempting to size  up with them.They very cunningly ( I  never think they are clever)manueuvered  the RA´s erroneous initiative-for  I think it was ours-of uttering”without any preconditions”..
Imagine a people,now a nation/state,who has been so much persecuted by grat Turkey is forthcoming with such an invitation…it should have been vice versa…bygones are bygones.
Nonetheless, not too late, to hinder  the PROCESS.It must be hindered ,it (both RA and Diaspora)should now take measures to prevent  it from going further,unless at the very least Genocide Recognition is inclusive  of negotiations ahead.
Most important if we aspire to some day become stronger as both a republic and Diaspora,ties between these two segments  of our people ought to be thoroughly studied  and strengthened.Just by declaring “Ari Dun”..and/or said attorney´s haphazard aid or Civilitas¨s  fundling -raisings…we cannot achieve our objectives.Mobilize  we must and that on a nationwide,programmed mode.My humble “paper” that  for 4.5 years was on the Armeniadiaspora.com site ,has suggested the “mechanism” for getting the Diaspora-Armenia enhanced relation rolling.Now it is on my own site .Please visit  it,it is  on top of  my web page http://www.ARMENENIDAD-worldwide.org  (2006 Conference).And thanks for reading me.
Hama Haigagani Siro,
gaytzag palandjian

]]> By: David Boyajianhttp://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/10/28/marashlian-accepting-the-history-sub-commission-is-like-snatching-defeat-from-the-jaws-of-victory/comment-page-1/#comment-4891 David Boyajian Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:54:40 +0000 http://www.armenianweekly.com/?p=4394#comment-4891 Turkey is shopping for a study - any study -  that concludes that the events of 1915-23 were not genocide. Turkey will keep shopping until it finds such a study.   The UN Subcommission study of 1985 concluded "genocide" and so Turkey dismissed it.  The TARC/ICTJ study concluded "genocide" and so Turkey dismissed it.  The People's Tribunal in Paris concluded "genocide" sand so Turkey dismissed it.If enough studies -10, 100, 1000 - are done on 1915-23, eventually, simply by the laws of probability (or laws of money), there will be a study that concludes that it was not genocide or that it cannot determined with a high degree of certainty.  In fact, if you study ANY issue enough times, eventually you will find one that comes out with the conclusion you want, even if you have to pay for it.   Turkey will find such a study someday.  It may even find one in the "joint commission" because Armenia was unwise enough to give Turkey the opportunity.Am I the only one who has noticed that the Armenian government is thoroughly incompetent when it comes to the genocide?  It is said that the Armenian genocide has been part of Armenia's foreign policy.Really?  Prove it.   Due to that government's incompetence, I have seen next to nothing that the Armenian government has ever done to advance the genocide issue except a few conferences, if that. In other words, the present Armenian government is incompetent, unknowledgeable, and totally unfit to conduct any study of the genocide.   I would almost trust a Turkish denialist to do a better job.   Seriously, I bet that Erdogan knows more about the subject than Sargsian does.It also seems to have escaped the notice of the arithmetically challenged among us that no commission composed even partly of Turks will ever be able to come to a unanimous decision on the genocide. Meanwhile, for the next few years Armenians around the world will be sucked into the machinations of this absurd commission when their energy and money could be better spent elsewhere.But I am glad to see Armenian American historians speak out.  Funny how they were so quick to jump to the defense of the young Turkish scholar arrested in Armenia a few years ago for supposedly trying to take some books out of the country, but when it comes to the protocols, they have been uncharacteristically silent - except when the Armenian Weekly happened wake them from their tenure-protected slumber a couple of weeks ago. Fuuny how academicians can bore their poor students to death with their lectures three times a week for 50 minutes for 9 months a yearm but when it comes to saying just a few things against the "joint commission," they have nothing to say.  Perhaps it is just as well.  Most of them are better suited to the raft of  lovey-dovey, ooey-gooey "mutual understanding," reconciliation panels that the Armenian American community has been subjected to lately with the connivance of certain - how shall I put this? - Armenian political organizations. Turkey is shopping for a study - any study –  that concludes that the events of 1915-23 were not genocide. 

Turkey will keep shopping until it finds such a study.   The UN Subcommission study of 1985 concluded “genocide” and so Turkey dismissed it.  The TARC/ICTJ study concluded “genocide” and so Turkey dismissed it.  The People’s Tribunal in Paris concluded “genocide” sand so Turkey dismissed it.

If enough studies -10, 100, 1000 – are done on 1915-23, eventually, simply by the laws of probability (or laws of money), there will be a study that concludes that it was not genocide or that it cannot determined with a high degree of certainty.  

In fact, if you study ANY issue enough times, eventually you will find one that comes out with the conclusion you want, even if you have to pay for it.   Turkey will find such a study someday.  It may even find one in the “joint commission” because Armenia was unwise enough to give Turkey the opportunity.

Am I the only one who has noticed that the Armenian government is thoroughly incompetent when it comes to the genocide?  It is said that the Armenian genocide has been part of Armenia’s foreign policy.

Really?  Prove it.   Due to that government’s incompetence, I have seen next to nothing that the Armenian government has ever done to advance the genocide issue except a few conferences, if that. 

In other words, the present Armenian government is incompetent, unknowledgeable, and totally unfit to conduct any study of the genocide.   I would almost trust a Turkish denialist to do a better job.   Seriously, I bet that Erdogan knows more about the subject than Sargsian does.

It also seems to have escaped the notice of the arithmetically challenged among us that no commission composed even partly of Turks will ever be able to come to a unanimous decision on the genocide. 

Meanwhile, for the next few years Armenians around the world will be sucked into the machinations of this absurd commission when their energy and money could be better spent elsewhere.

But I am glad to see Armenian American historians speak out.  Funny how they were so quick to jump to the defense of the young Turkish scholar arrested in Armenia a few years ago for supposedly trying to take some books out of the country, but when it comes to the protocols, they have been uncharacteristically silent – except when the Armenian Weekly happened wake them from their tenure-protected slumber a couple of weeks ago. 

Fuuny how academicians can bore their poor students to death with their lectures three times a week for 50 minutes for 9 months a yearm but when it comes to saying just a few things against the “joint commission,” they have nothing to say. 
Perhaps it is just as well.  Most of them are better suited to the raft of  lovey-dovey, ooey-gooey ”mutual understanding,” reconciliation panels that the Armenian American community has been subjected to lately with the connivance of certain – how shall I put this? – Armenian political organizations.

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