By Kemal Kahraman
Editor’s note: Tens of thousands of men, women, and children were massacred by Turkish troops during the destruction of Kurds and Zazas of Dersim (now Tunceli) in 1937-38. For decades, this genocide was denied and framed as “suppression of an uprising” by the Turkish state. In November 2009, the Turkish Republican People’s Party deputy chairman Onur Oymen said that the destruction of the Kurds in Dersim was an example of the struggle against terrorism, and a heated public debate ensued. Columnists and political figures harshly criticized Oymen’s statement, and even high-ranking Turkish officials called the events of Dersim a “massacre.” Some thought Turkey was finally coming to terms with at least one horrible chapter of its past. As Kemal Kahraman explains in the article below, that is hardly the case.
In the discussions about the Kurdish initiative on Nov. 10, 2009, Onur Oymen, the CHP (Republican People’s Party) deputy chairman, said something that shouldn’t have been said—and the Dersim ’38 issue, which hasn’t been talked about for 70 years, became one of the most important items on the Turkish and European agendas. We are expected to see it like this.
We realized that all columnists, television hosts, documentary producers, historians, sociologists, party chairmen, members of the parliament, heard and unheard of researchers, publishers, music producers, institutions, and, as the prime minister and the president themselves have said, even our state, have been silently coming to terms with this shame of humanity for 70 years, have passed their judgments of conscience, but have waited all this time for Onur Oymen’s gaffe to speak… We are supposed to understand it like this.
The discussion started with superficially dramatic stories or with academic explanations of the trauma that the event caused in the victim, but many times with an ironic thanking to Onur Oymen, followed by lessons teaching the people of Dersim that they had to leave the CHP or had no reason to fear the AKP. The discussion, having been thus used for current political purposes, was finished and laid aside in a month.
In this way, in the eyes of everyone from political organizations to academicians, from journalists to unions, and in fact, according to the institutions that speak for Dersim, even for the people of Dersim, we now have not a Dersim Rebellion, but a Dersim Massacre, understood within the framework prescribed by our state. We are supposed to believe it so.
But is it so? Was Dersim ‘38 put on the state agenda accidentally due to a gaffe? Were all our politicians and intellectuals waiting for Onur Oymen’s gaffe to speak about this? Did a 70-year-long state policy change due to a gaffe? What was put in its place? Did a crime against humanity find its place in history, when it was changed from a rebellion to a massacre? Or was it moved to a new framework for the holy survival of our state?
That is, will our state, which has acknowledged a historical crime by calling it a massacre, also open the way to a confrontation with the ongoing practices and damages caused by that crime? For instance, will it put under state protection, not only Zazaca, a language that makes itself known only as one of the dying languages in the UNESCO 2009 report, but also the Dersim Kizilbash/Alevi oral culture that faces the threat of extinction together with this language? In short, will it lead to an actual change toward repairing the damages caused by the 70-year-long cultural genocide committed by the state itself?
Now that Turkish academicians and intellectuals have expressed their opinions, eased their consciences, joined our state in calling the event by its name, and even given extensive advices to “our dersimites” about what they have to do in the future, will the state provide room for reflecting on the 70-year-long silence and the social trauma that it has brought about?
Or, is all this—done in the name of “facing a historical mistake,” at the very moment that for the first time society is asking the question, “What happened in ‘38?”—really a political operation by the state with the goal of redefining, in a month, the event, its place in history, and its addressee?
Or, does all this, done in the name of facing a historical mistake, not go beyond mundane political agendas like destroying the CHP, winning over Alevis, attacking Kemalism, taking hold of Dersim, and thereby re-victimizing the victims, leaving them once again face to face with their sufferings?
Or, what is worse, does all this, done in the name of facing a historical mistake, mask the new stages of that historical mistake? That is, just when Dersim ’38 is being discussed these days, is it a coincidence that the Munzur Dam Project, which is the last stage of ’38, is quietly being materialized with the Uzuncayir Dam? (*)
It is well-known that in Turkey everything from deep-rooted social problems to small narrative changes becomes possible only according to the needs of the political authorities, i.e. the state mechanism, and hence by the interference of the state authorities.
Today the changes in the narrative of Dersim ’38 become intelligible only seen as a state project, just like the Armenian, Kurdish, Cyprus, Alevi, and Roma initiatives in the last couple of years, and even the Ergenekon operation, and other similar current headlines.
Furthermore, as convincing written sources and documents now show, the 1937-38 Dersim events constitute a state project prepared and executed by the newly founded Turkish state since 1926.
Clearly, with the Dersim Massacre narrative today, a new political concept is being constructed only with respect to the state, and new opportunities are being created for various political forces—and the academic circles under their control—all of which will be functional in the legitimatization and ripening of this concept.
Because the state, which until recently based its argument on “legitimate self-defense against an armed rebellion,” is labeling a state project that has to be described as genocide—according to the well-known definition of Raphael Lemkin and international legal norms—instead as a massacre, and thereby reducing it to a military excessiveness that just happened in 1938, and defining it within a framework that lacks political and legal counterparts, and sanctions.
In any event, Dersim ’38 has been put on the agenda of the Turkish public; even if it is too late, at least it is being discussed now. That in itself is a positive development. However, looking at what has happened in this short time, the only optimistic formulation about the subject is in the form of a question: What is the goal in relation to Dersim ’38? Is it at least a confrontation with the perpetrator, a purification, leading to social trust and security and made permanent by the state’s safe-guarding, that will serve as the foundations for a life together?
Or, is it a way of minimizing the costs of a historical crime committed by the state, by drowning it in conceptual discussions about massacres and ethnic cleansing, etc., discussions without international legal significance, and reshaping the public opinion by producing the academic, legal, and historical documents?
Kemal Kahraman is a distinguished musician from Dersim, Turkey. Together with his brother Metin Kahraman, he formed the Metin-Kemal Kahraman Ensemble and produced nine CDs which are widely distributed in Turkey. They mainly sing in the Zazaki language. Apart from their own compositions, they are engaged in tracing and representing the oral culture of Dersim, which is doomed to vanish given the state’s assimilation policies. For several years now, they have been conducting oral history interviews with the elderly from Dersim to document not only the atrocities that occurred there (which are captured in laments, poems, etc.) but also the larger spectrum of cultural and religious life in Dersim. Kemal Kahraman lives in Berlin, Germany.
(*) Since the 1990’s, the state has started to build 11 dams in Dersim on the Munzur, Karasu, and Pulumur Rivers, two of them are already operating and the others are still being built. The Uzuncayir Dam, the most important of these dams, leaves part of the city center under water, and was put into service just as the Dersim ’38 issues started to be discussed in Novermber 2009. Even though this project is officially based on the energy needs of the country, as the 1934 General Command of Gendarmerie DERSIM “secret” reports (of which only 100 copies have been printed and carefully distributed) show, this idea has been discussed since 1875, with the goal of “leaving the region under water by artificial lakes, erasing it from the map,” and thereby “destroying the source of trouble completely,” and is still a project that is very much alive. (See General Command of Gendarmerie report DERSIM–Kaynak Yayinlari 1998, Istanbul. For a current article on this issue, see “134 yillik surgun plani,” www.gundem-online.net/haber.asp?haberid=79906 ).
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And the Genocide never stopped with the murder of 2-3 million innocent Armenians.
turks have started the Genocide of the Kurdish people by way of assimilation.
According to one Kurdish study, between 5-6 million Kurds have already been assimilated and turkified. If the trend continues, there won’t be any Kurds left in current day turkey.
We can stand up, but cannot..because we lack a dedicated leader.
Ferhat
From the time they came to Asia minor, and for centuries, killing and taking the belongings and wealth of the others, has been the primary source of income, for Turks, the history books are full of that,nothing is new,what a shame.
With all due respect did not Kurds and Armenians killed each during world war 1? Is not this the reason both Armenians and Kurds claim the exact same piece of land from Turkey?
NYOPD:
NO, you’re wrong.
Kurds live close to Syrian and Irqai borders.
Armeniian lands, Medz Hayq, is just north of Kurdish populated areas.
We will never fight the Armenians, ever again.
Ferhat
Ferhat is absolutely wrong.
Kurds continue to occupy the Armenian villages in Western Armenia (eastern Turkey) where they brutally murdered Armenians and drove them out of their homes that they pillaged and confiscated during the Genocide. Kurdish sheep still graze our lands, and Kurds pick the apricots off our trees; they harvest grain from our fields, and store hay in the remnants of the stone houses our fathers and grandfather’s hand-built. They hang their laundry inside our crumbling churches and grow their tomatoes and peppers in our churchyards.
But Ferhat is absolutely right about one thing; Kurds will never battle and kill us again. Neither will Turks.
Well, this is precious… as we all know, it was mainly the unruly Kurds who were attacking and robbing more urban Armenians in the East at the beginning of the previous century as the central authority weakened, ironically with much help of Armenians and their patron Russia. Hamidiye was established mostly for the purpose of gaining some control over these hordes and even that did not work well. It got even worse when Armenians began to implement by force of gun their Greater Armenia fantasy which required ethnic cleansing of the majority Muslim population of Eastern Turkey. Well, who were these Muslims? Mostly Turkish-Kurds. They did not like the idea of course and fought back together with the central Ottoman government. Guess who Armenians would have to confront if this fantasy plan were to be brought that close to implementation again. Mostly Turkish-Kurds. Again. I assure you, it would not be a pretty sight. Again.
Just as a note, Dersim bloodshed was instigated as a result of a massive armed rebellion by Kurds. It took a significant portion of the whole Turkish Army to finally put it down. It was bloody and the challenge to the young Republic was serious and as was the response given the fresh memory of what happened to the Turkish nation before, during and after WWI. This conflict had far reaching consequences, including fate of Musul and Kurds in general. Does this mean the excesses should not be unearthed and exposed? Of course they should be exposed and injustices addressed. Which is mostly what is taking place anyway. If only others did the same.
Let me start with Murat.
Kurds and Armenians had lived next to each other for thousands of years. We had our share of enimosity, we did battle each other, and unfortunately we were friends and adversaries for years…but we never intended nor wanted to “exterminate” each other through Genocide(s), until the appearance of uncivilized, violent and murderous marauding grandfathers of Murat and the rest of the turks. So, Murats half hearted attempt to blame things on the Kurds failed, and will fail again in the future. I promise turks, wherever they may be, that they will never succeed using Kurds to do their murders, again, never ever again.
Perouz,
Yes, you are somehow right. But, once again, Kurds that live on historical Armenian lands are basically tribes, who do not own the lands they live on. I cannot stress this point to my Armenian friends. Unfortunately for us Kurds, our tribal system is destroying us, but in another sense, allows us Not to settle permenantly on turkish occupied Armenian lands. We just pass by, and move on. If you do not believe what I write here, you can check with the occupying turkish government, and you’ll be surprised to see that about 90% of the Armenian historical lands belong to the turkish government, the rest to absentee turkish landlords. Kurds lease lands for grazing and living, and then they move on.
As for the Kurds using Armenian churches as “stables, or hanging laundry..” etc etc. After turks destroyed these churches, it was the turks, and not Kurds who destroyed these churches, let’s be clear about this, and now, unfortunately, some ignorant and uneducated poor people use it for the said purposes. But I assure you that if you go to these Kurds and ask them to stop desecrating these churches, they will stop immediately.
But do not fall victim to the massive turkish propaganda machine, which feeds us nothing but garbage. If you listen(ed) to the turk, they blame anything and everything on the Jews, Germans and Russians…as if they were innocent bylookers. Recently they upped the propaganda to such idiotic levels that suddenly talaat pash, the mass murderer, became a Circassian and a Jew. And now, they are calling Tblisi(capital of Georgia) as a former turkish garisson, according to turks, the name Tblisi comes from “Turkish Bolis” thus shortened “Tblisi”.
Ferhat
Murat, your words are manufactuered and made in Turkey, you maybe forcefully and hardly sell them in Asia minor only. I bet you, you are very far from the truth, and that is very sad.
I know some story from my grand father , they live south part of turkey which are called Kurdistan . Kurdish and armenian people live together for log year till turkish military service and goverment provocated Some kurdis lords whichone are called ‘ seh , sih , hoca ‘ . In turkey some armenian people speak kurdish , Hirat Dink was also Armenian Kurdish , he used to speak kurdis and gave kurdish name on his children , my grandfather say , after war they took some armenian people to his house and give them food , drinkks , there was man who is killed from turkis goverment .
we sre all brother , siter
I hope Armenians and Kurds start to build a strong bond. My family was sheltered by Dersim Kurds.
Sure, the Kurds and Armenians will never fight again, but you did fight during WW1. Or, more specifically, Kurds and Armenians massacred each other’s civilians.
Your hatred of Turks is absurd… It’s amazing that two peoples who have committed atrocious acts on their own (like practically all peoples of any note in history) could point so many fingers yet not on any occasion recognize their own misdeeds.
Their is no Armenian Genocide until there is a Turkish Genocide at the hands of Armenians, Greeks, Bulgars, etc. There is no massacre of Kurds in Dersim by Turks unless it is admitted that worse massacres of Armenians — and in that case largely without any cause other than greed and malice — by Kurds occurred. If you want to define words in a certain way, you must be consistent about their application. Either the Turks suffered an equal genocide at the hands of the Christians of their multi-ethnic and remarkably tolerant empire as it crumbled, or no genocide occurred at all to either party. Have it your way, if you like, but be consistent.
And when are the Armenians going to face up to the Circassian Genocide? How can you go around pointing fingers when you haven’t faced your own past? What does Jesus say? He says to pluck the log out of your eye before you worry about the sliver in your neighbor’s eye.
Kurds and Armenians would have a much easier time of it if they would be honest with themselves. Their ancestors were not saints, and are certainly no less blameworthy than the Turks. The fact that the Turks won, or, rather, that the Armenian rebellion failed miserably and the Kurdish terrorists are perpetually ineffectual, and developed a successful nation state is not a legitimate reason for painting them as the bad guys. Not all losers are saints, and not all victors are bad guys.
Justin, you are misguided and wrong, that is very bad for everybody.
Justin, you are soooo ignorant !
It is so practical, for ignorants like you, to say that no genocide has occured, that it was everybody’s fault,
that all crimes are equal…
I am sorry for the money your parents paid for your school. Buy the way, which school was it, in order for my family to avoid sending our kids there ?
My favorite part of Justin’s incoherent ramblings; that Armenians are responsible for Circassians being dislodged from the northern Caucasus.
What do you mean when you refer to the Circassian genocide? I read posts by Armenians talking about Russian expansionism, comparable to the Spanish conquistadors, when many Indo-european and Turkic tribes were exterminated in order to seize their land. He mentioned that many of the names of these tribes have been lost to history; also a book on Russian history I have said this topic would take another book to discuss it. I think it would be very interesting for that book to be written. The Spanish almost wiped out entire Indian civilizations in the americas.
Re: the Circassian genocide, there are a few articles on the internet. One is quoted below: almost 95% of the Circassians were genocided.
From” Circassian Genocide” by Antero Leitzinger: you can read the rest on the internet as well as other articles.
“Summary: The genocide committed against the Circassian nation by Czarist Russia in the 1800s was the biggest genocide of the nineteenth century. Yet it has been almost entirely forgotten by later history, while everyone knows the later Jewish Holocaust and many have heard about the Armenian genocide. “Rather than of separate, selectively researched genocides, we should speak of a general genocidal tendency that affected many – both Muslim and Christian – people on a wide scene between 1856 and 1956, continuing in post-Soviet Russia until today”, writes Antero Leitzinger. This article was originally published in “Turkistan News”.
The Circassian Genocide
By Antero Leitzinger
A professor of the university of Munich (München), Karl Friedrich Neumann (not to be confused with the later Naumann), wrote in 1839 a book titled “Russland und die Tscherkessen” (published in the collection “Reisen und Länderbeschreibungen”, vol. 19, in 1840). He describes, how Russia settled Christians to the parts of Armenia gained from Persia in 1828 – actually, Neumann had written about the issue already in 1834. (p. 68-69) Neumann considered this a very sound policy and predicted, that all Caucasus would become under firm Russian rule within the next decades. (p. 125) European powers would not intervene, because it was the destiny of all Europe to rule over the lands of Turks, Persians, and Hindus. (p. 129-130)
Neumann was no racist, but he certainly advocated colonialism and was a Russophile in relation to the southern lands. He had a Darwinist approach many years before Charles Darwin or Herbert Spencer presented their ideas. This appears to have been more typical to 19th century German thought than any anti-Armenian sentiments. Neumann makes it clear in his very first words of the preface: “The European humanity is selected by divinity as ruler of the earth.” ”
Also, USA had its believers in manifest destiny, white man’s burden.
My books say the German’s had the intention of taking over Turkey (as well as the entire world) and replacing the Armenians who were in high places; and no doubt the Turks themselves. I think Ataturk realized this.
Ataturk had fought with Talat Pasha and the other two for power. He went to Germany to investigate and was suspicious of the Germans. You will note Turkey tried to save itself from German invasion in WWII and remained neutral. He was right to be suspicious; the Nazis would have made all non-whites slaves or worse.
I want to add that the also tragic population transfer of Greeks also occurred. I read further that Ataturk, being a child of the Balkans, knew the deep seated hatreds of the Balkans and wanted to prevent that by population tranfer; however, we see that did not solve the problem. Now for Turkey to find a solution to how to deal with minorities, if it can. Obviously, the deep seated hatreds and wars between the minorities is a problem looking for a solution. It was probably worse in these Balkan countries and was also in Turkey, needing tolerance and laws enforcing it.
Justin or whatever your turkish name is… . Since your greatfather was a terrorist and he butchered thousands of Armenians and Kurds, and mind you, your brothers and uncles are still killing innocent Kurds today. You just assasinated Hrant Dink, and just a few days ago you imprisoned a small Kurdish girl who weighs a mere 77lb. for 7-8 years .and you have got the b-lls calling Kurds terrorists? Did you know that your dear erdogan, before becoming th premier, was on the world “terror watch list?” for his connections to the Afghan terroris Hekmetyar? What kind of bellicose and garbage filled post was that?
And you want your Genocidal turkey to join the European union?
Ferhat
PS: Arm. Weekly kindly allow my post to be seen by all Genocidal turks, whose killing machines are still up and running..
To Justin,
The idea that Armenians committed mass genocide against Turks, Kurd or Circassians is pure Turkish fiction fairytale that is given some credence by a few phony Turkish paid historians. The massive amount of evidence, both eyewitness and official archival material, is an overwhelming clear testimony to the genocidal intent of the Turkish government to rid itself of anything Armenian and of course the theft of personal property as the Ottoman Empire was based upon murder, theft and occupation of others. It’s what Turks do best. That is why all genocide historians view the Armenian Genocide as a known fact. None talks of the Turkish massacres because it basically doesn’t exist. Going further, the Armenian genocide really started in the late 1800’s with the Hamidian massacres of up to 200,000 Armenians and then under the cover of WW1 the Turks decided to implement the “final Armenian solution”. You can include the final Greek, Assyrian and now the Kurdish solution to that list…….So please, before asking everyone to shed a tear for the poor Turks, try reading a credible history book outside of Turkey.
Murat and Justin,
You tell it like it is!! Yes, I know that you’d love to say more, to provide facts to back you up, but unfortunately you must be careful to be as low key as possible, lest the editorial staff censors and deletes your posts. Keep up the good work.
Armen,
Your brainwashing is total! I’m afraid that there’s probably permanent brain damage. You go ahead and keep believing all of those things that you’ve been taught. BTW, don’t you know by now that anyone who has even a minor opposition to dashnak propaganda is a paid Turkish agent? Heck, Murat and I rake in a cool million (USD) each month from Turkey just to come on these sites!
Ferhat,
I see that the numbers have now miraculesly climbed to 2-3 million Armenian’s killed by us! Wow, even the hard core dashnaks are saying “Say What?! You’re out of your gourd! Even we don’t buy dat!”. Tell me, did you just come up with these figures on your own, or is it the next “official” step for the dashnak diaspora? I guess you can substantiate these figures though, huh? Seriously dude, you’ve got to cut out the drugs already!
To the rest of you,
Notice how you react to anyone who questions you, who has a different opinion, who has the potential of causing others to ponder the possibility that there just may be another side to the story that you’ve been told for years. I’m actually surprised that the editorial staff allowed these posts. I would have bet that they would’ve been censored and deleted, never to see the light of day.
You are right, I apologize, the numbers of Armenians massacred were indeed not 2-3 million, but according to a new study by German historians (Center for German Historical Society in Bonn), it might as well be 3.75million Armenians massacred.
How can the world tolerate turkish atrocities is beyond anyones imagination. And you want your terrorist country to be accepted to the UN? How can a country which proclaim democracy and freedom of speech, tolerate a small child of 13 years old, a girl, weighing 77lbs, be imprisoned for 7-8 years? Does any turk here have a logical explanation as to why this little Kurdish girl was sentenced to 7-8 years prison?
Look, history does not lie, OK? Look what you’ve done in the last few years.
1. Killed a sleeping innocent Armenian officer in a Foreign country, Hungary.
2. Killed Hrant Dink.
3. Killed 2,700 innocent Kurds
4. Attacked the Armenian football team bus with rocks and profanities. Whereas your team was not molested while in Yerevan.
5. Betrayed your supposed strategic partner Israel, over and over and over again. They are sick and tired of erdogans stupid and terroristic outbursts..
Look, the Genocide against the Armenians is an undeniable fact, you can buy phony historians with money, but they too, in the end realize that they have become the butt of all jokes. The Genocide of assimilation against my people is in full swing, and believe me it will be stopped, the days are numbered when 20 million Kurds will stand up and throw your vicious and violent mongol turks out of our lands.
Before I forget, too much turkish delight is diluting your Genocidal senses my friend, go easy on the sugar…Ferhat
To Robert, who says:
“I’m actually surprised that the editorial staff allowed these posts. I would have bet that they would’ve been censored and deleted, never to see the light of day”.
Robert, these posts were not censored because we are not in Turkey. It is called “democracy”.
Don’t search for this word in your Turkish dictionary, it doesn’t exist, and is never heard of in Turkey, where (according to my experience) the only fact of being called Robert or Justin is a crime in itself.
Why should people have any doubt about the crimes committed by the Turks in the past, when these crimes occur until today, but in a more “careful”, or even secret way.
I agree with you when you say that 2 to 3 million Armenian killed is not an accurate statement.
According to my information, the number was between 1 and 1,5 million.
And the Turks committed other horrible crimes, in Greece, in Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Austria, and several countries in the Near East like Lebanon and Syria.
No need to be a member of any Armenian political party, no need to be an Armenian to look at Turkey with fear because of what happened (and still happening), and with hatred because of the denial.
The denial will take you nowhere, and will always be a black stain on the forehead of your children, grand- children…and this will never stop, because the crimes that are never admitted are never forgotten.
Shame on the people who try to insinuate that the people who were slaughtered deserved to die, or who try to find excuses for the murderers.
Marina
According to the US military attache in Istanbul(Ottoman turkey), the Armenian population in Ottoman turkey was at or about 6 million.
turks allege that Kurds number 10 million in turkey, even though every other country including the US and European countries put that number close to 21 million.
Can’t any of you see the monumental manipulation being carried out by turkey?
So, if 1.5 million were massacred, whatever happened to the 4.5 million Armenians. Was it magic that they suddenly disappeared from the face of the world? That would be a strange coincidance. It is your history, and it is up to you all Armenians to reevaluate the numbers massacred by the turks.
I don’t understand the kindness you Armenians show to Genocidal turks everywhere. You treat them as if they will accept the Genocide. Here is a violent people that will very very soon attack Armenia and Artsakh and according to turks here in turkey, they will teach the Armenians another lesson.
Can’t you see the way they treat Kurds? Did any of you suspected that these “civilized turks” would ever imprison a small child for 7-8 years?
You stay blinded by their kind words and you already are victimized for the 2nd, 3rd and nth times.
Ferhat
To Marina,
You actually question the veracity of the extent of censorship on this or any other dashnak site (e.g. ANCA)! My dear Marina, you haven’t a clue as to how many times I, and many others who voiced an opinion of difference, were censored and DELETED! I have written so many posts just on this site alone which have been deleted. Why? Because I wrote, and backed up, the truth. The editorial staff memebers didn’t want to take a chance on posting it for the obvious reason that it did contain the truth! There were no vulgarities, nor any defamation. I wasn’t rude in any way. So there was NO reason for the censorship. When I called them on it, they censored that post as well. So please don’t even try to make a comparison between Turkey and dashnak sites. The ONLY reason my post has been allowed to come through is because I’m pro-protocol (& in favor of having the historical commission established), and want to have peace between the nations in the region. In most cases, it would be to the benefit of Armenia’s economy more than to any other country.
To Ferhat,
So, we’re now up to 3.75 million. Look, at the rate you’re going, don’t wait until next week…why don’t you just make it an even 6 million now, and then be in true parity with the Jewish Holocaust! You’re figure of 6 million Armenians in the area during WWI is…what can I say?…bizzare at best! From the low end of 350K Armenians in the region (Encyclopedia Brittanica – 1914), to the high end of 1.2 million (Armenian Patriarch – 1915), no one even comes close to 6 million! With 600K Armenians returning to Syria & Lebanon after the war, and the Armenians living in the western areas of Turkey (Istanbul) remaining intact, even the UN doesn’t buy the 1.5 million figure and states that there was no genocide! But all of that aside, I don’t think anyone on this site believes you. You see Ferhat, when you grossly inflate a figure like you have, then you lose all credibility. Listen to your own post! You’re literally pleading with everyone to listen and believe what you’re telling them. You want the perpetuation of hate to continue to feed your pathetic ego and also to satisfy your own twisted agenda! Just exactly what is your agenda anyway Ferhat? Getting two sides at each other’s throats so you can gleefully watch in the background shadows! Is that what you’re all about? Really, you’re not even worth the time of day!!!
I look brain washed to you and some Turks. But what about for the rest of the civilized world? starting from UN and down to at least twenty well known civilized countries. Robert, some Turks are brain-washed not me, because they are denying the Armenian genocide. Stop that nonesense name caller and wake-up! you ignorant Robert.
Btw as a person from dersim i must say %70-%80 percent of dersim(tunceli) is alevi/kizilbas Not muslim kurdish also kurds dont like alevis since they arent really muslim
No robert, that’s is what YOU want to see my friend.
When someone looks for a job, people check that persons references, and as such, and as you are a turk, and have a history built on murdered innocent peoples, you will never be believed or trusted again. turks have horrible references..even Suleiman the magnificant was a mass murderer, 4 million Albanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Greeks and Romanians were murdered because of this mass murderer. You show me one page of turkish history, where turks came out honorable or chivalrous. We had our Saladin whose chivalry surprised the Crusaders, and who treated every Christian subject with respect and dignity. Armenians had their Gen. Antranig, who treated Kurdish women and children with respect and dignity. You show me one turk, one single turkish ruler who showed benevolence to his Christian subjects…there is none, unless you want to become that one chivalrous turk, then step forward, accept the Genocide, move out of Kurdish lands, treat your Christian subjects with dignity and respect. We thought that mustafa kemal will turn centuries of Ottoman brutality around, buy we were wrong. kemal not only massacred Greeks, but then turned on us Kurds and massacred us.
Would you robert, raise your voice and complain about the unjust arrest and imprisonment of this young Kurdish girl? Do you honestly believe that civilized government should act that reckless? Why is a mighty turkey threatened by a small child who weighs a mere 77lb? Where is your sense of compassion? Or do you have any left? It takes a man to come forward and tell the truth my friend. Come on out, learn from Orhan Pamuk, and you will be free of all guilt brought upon you by your forefathers.
There are however righteous turks, the likes of Orhan Pamuk, Dr. Akcam, and hundreds of righteous turkish journalists and academicians, who are fed up with the shame their people are bringing on them, and are working diligently to change turkish public opinion around….however they are few in numbers.
Ferhat
To Robert,
If you didn’t like being censored on this site, why would you wish, in that case, that other posts should receive the same treatment, and never see the “day of light”, as you say ?
You are not censored on this site when you deny the armenian genocide. In Turkey, people who pronounce the word genocide are killed, like Hrant Dink, who cannot see ‘the day of light” anymore. Shame on a country who allows that. Shame on the people who try to re-write history.
Many countries recognize the reality of the armenian genocide, and Turkey will have to do it, if the Turks want to be respected. The reason why the Germans can have today a honorable life is that they don’t deny what their grand-parents did. Instead, the Turks use intimidation, influence historians to change the truth, kill journalists…
Continue like this, and you will enter the European Union over our dead bodies.
P.S: Stop trying to isolate Ferhat. I sincerely think that the number he mentions of Armenian killed during the genocide is not accurate. But if the true number is one million or even less, this doesn’t mean that there was no genocide. The Turks has disfigured the destiny of the Armenian people by killing, jailing, torturing, raping, and robbing them. Every Armenian I know has a chunk of his family tree missing. Many of them are only survivors of a large family.
Trying to marginalize Ferhat or others will not help, since Turkey is marginalizing itself by falsifying history.
Is this guy calling himself “Justin” the phony, well fed and morbidly obese, and constantly sweating and swearing faux historian who is on the payroll of turkish intelligence agency?
Ferhat
It is a good idea maybe for some of you to take a closer look at what Kurdish terrorism has done, the lives lost, and their victims, again mostly Kurds. Over 30K Turkish citizens have died as a result of Kurdish terrorism. Many of them terrorists themselves and their civilian victims, again Kurds. Though claims are made often about TSK killing Kurds, I am not aware of any killings of Kurdish civilians by the armed forces.
http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/Volume_18/issue_2/rodoplu.pdf
As of this moment though, well over 5K members of the Turkish Armed forces have been killed in clashes with Kurdish terrorists and this does not even include police and the village guards I believe. Does this look or sound like the Turkish police and military is involved in some one-sided oppression or fight? Just imagine what another nation would have done. Certainly there have been heavy-handed policies and many civilians have suffered the consequences but there are very few innocents in this conflict.
Hy Murat, the Turks call the Kurds ‘terrorists’ so that the Turks can commit another Genocide.
Even recently, jailing a 15 year old Kurdish child- for many years – a young girl is obscene. Actually the judge in this case obviously and deliberately and knowing what this child shall face in the jail all those years – is a precursor to Genocide which is next for the bully Turks… The Kurds seek freedom from the tyranny of the Turks. As the pograms against the Armenians percursed the Turkish
Genocide of the Armenians – beginning in the 1890s…. and the Turk still is in pursuit of the Armenians – still, into 2010.
Manooshag
Aha, so Murat you are meaning that the Kurds are killing each other, and the Turkish soldiers are staring at them, or maybe, helping them to stop killing each other. That will make a very good excuse for the Turkish soldiers, to be in that part of the Asia minor, isn’t it. Murat tell to your friends, that the occupation is wrong way to solve the problems, it’s simple as is, and everybody knowes that, your soldiers are not welcomed in that part of lands, as well as Armenian lands, that lands doesn’t belong to you, you must know that, cause the origenal owners has never gave it to you, meaning, up to your armed forces, to politely get out of there, before it gets worse than it is now, nobody there has ever invited them, or asked them to come for help, belive me, that surely will start to solve many bad problems and massacres .
Hye, messages from most Turks, are so convoluted… since they have been mislead in their history books by all the leaderships whose lied, not only to the Turkish citizens, but also to themselves.
They deny a Genocide the world knows they committed – deliberately planned and executed against the Christian Armenians – stealing the Armenian lands, stealing the historical sites of the Armenians, stealing even the Armenian culture, including Armenian cooking methods – as the Turk is of the hordes who came down from the mountains of Asia, knowing only how to kill and eliminate – to gain the Armenian lands as their own…
Pity the Turks who try to defend the historical beginnings of the Turks – no civilized advances in the realm of humanity – still as the hordes of the Asian mountains! Sadly, for the Turkish citizens, sadly for the rest of the world who have to contend with the bullying practices of the Turkish leaderships of today. Turkey can only be resurrected when their leaders of today are removed – as were the Nazis of Germany – for the freedom seeking Turks to succeed in liberating all the citizens of Turkey.
Manooshag