WASHINGTON—On Thurs., March 4, the House Foreign Affairs Committee held a hearing on the Armenian Genocide Resolution–H.R. 252. The resolution passed by a vote of 23 to 22.
The resolution will now be sent to the House of Representatives for a vote by the full chamber at a date to be set by the Speaker of the House.
In his introductory remarks, Howard L. Berman (D-Calif.), the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, underlined the undisputed fact of the Armenian Genocide, noted that the overwhelming majority of scholars affirm the fact of the genocide, and urged his colleagues for vote for it. He added, “It is now time for Turkey to acknowledge the reality of the Armenian Genocide.”
The passage of this resolution by the committee is a tribute to the hard work of the Armenian American community against substantial lobbying by the government of Turkey.
Turkey recalls ambassador
Turkey says it is recalling its ambassador to the U.S. for consultations following a resolution declaring the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I as genocide, reported AP.
The move came minutes after the U.S. congressional panel approved the resolution Thursday.
A government statement said Ambassador Namik Tan was being recalled with immediate effect.
The House Foreign Affairs Committee endorsed the resolution with a 23-22 vote, even though the Obama Administration had urged Congress not to offend Turkey by approving it.
Statement by Hachikian on Committee passage
Below is a statement by ANCA Chairman Ken Hachikian on the vote.
A bi-partisan majority today rejected Turkey’s gag rule, setting the stage for Speaker Pelosi and the full U.S. House to properly commemorate the Armenian Genocide. The Committee’s message was simple yet powerful: Turkey doesn’t get a vote or a veto in the U.S. Congress.
As Americans of Armenian heritage, it holds great meaning to see our nation move one step closer to putting the painful lessons of the Armenian Genocide to work in helping to end the cycle of genocide, in Darfur and around the world.
A moral foreign policy has always been among our strongest assets and one of the greatest forces for good in the world. Despite Turkey’s last-minute threats and intimidation, Chairman Berman and the House Foreign Affairs Committee have shown that it’s always the right time to do the right thing.
I am very confident that Obama will continue his work and officially call it GENOCIDE. Thanks to the strong politicians who value human lives and history.
Beemer.
This is not your guys business!! liers will pay this!!!!
Bravo! The heavenly powers are working in the right way.
My thanks and appreciation goes to Mr. Howard Berman, Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Sherman, Mr. Watson, Mr. Searis, Mr. Berkley, Mr. Skipper, Mr. Smith, Mr. Manzilo, Mr. Roth, Mr. Billarakis of Florida, Mr. Payne, Mr. Gallaghy, Mr. Coach, Mr. Colronoseira, Mr. Engle, Mr. Roerbocker, Mr. Kline of Florida, Ms. or Mr. Keith Allison, Mr. Lee of California, Mr. Green of Texas, Ms. Wolsie of California, Mr. Crowley of New York and Ms. Jackson-Lee of Texax.
I thank each and every one of the Senators above in their stand for truth and for justice in the world. Believe me dear Senators, your stand will be a good role model for the world to see and to have peace around the globe. It shall act against bullies like Omar El Bashir of Sudan, Turkey and many others. It shall put a stop to persecutions, annihilations, ethnic cleansing, Genocide, Haulocaust and terrorism.
Hocali? Anybody ever heard about what happened there?
Turkey is bluffing.
It can do nothing substantive to retaliate. It has done nothing in the past when similar resolutions passed the US House (1975 and 1984) – see http://www.Armenian-genocide.org. Think about it, a superpower, the US, is supposed to grovel at the feet of a lousy, fraudulent, backward country like Turkey? This makes no sense.
Turkey did next to nothing when other countries and the EU Parliament officially acknowledged the Genocide, and yet when a superpower – the ONLY superpower – acknowledges it, this pip-squeak of a lying pseudo-nation called Turkey is going to punish the US?
Please. This is too ridiculous for words. Of course, the White House wants you to think that Turkey will retaliate. Obama and Hillary want to scare Congress and the American people so that the genocide resolution will not pass. Hence, they both grovel at Erdogan’s feet and make us all ashamed to be Americans. Obama has lost whatever principles he may have had, while Hillary never had any to begin with.
I suggest that everyone who has not read this fine publication by ANCA ( http://www.anca.org/endthegagrule/briefingbook.pdf ) print it out and curl up with it tonight for a good read. And, please, blog the websites that are printing negative and misleading information about the resolution and the non-ability of the Turkish pseudo-nation to punish the US.
I telephoned Mr. MacMahon’s office to take him to task for his stand. 1.5 million people killed for their Christian religion nearly 95 years ago is not something to cover up. To help cover this up sends what kind of message to the terrorists?!?!! Since when is Turkey going to give up all the military money we give them in order to exert control on our Congress? Give up bakshessh you have got to be kidding me!!
I also telephoned Mr. Ackerman’s office to thank him for his words. I encourage everyone to telephone the Congressmen to thank them for their strong support.
To those in the committee who are concerned about Turkey cutting ties with the US. Really? Turkey is going to cut off their ties with the country they want to be aligned with most of all [USA] AND the European Union? That would totally destroy their economy and their place as a growing world power. That doesn’t make sense.
Today is indeed a VICTORY FOR THE DESCENDANTS OF THE TRIBES OF NAIRI!
TRUTH SHOULD ALWAY PREVAIL NO MATTER WHAT! AFTER TRUTH JUSTICE & RESTITUTION SHOULD INDEED FOLLOW! WE HAVE WAITED A LONG ENOUGH TIME!!!! Lawyers call this ‘corrollary relief!’
Mer bolori axchqnera luys hye joghovurt..
Today was indeed a victory.. Victory not only to show the world that justice and truth is stronger than Turkey, but also it celebrates the Armenians unity and togetherness.. When we start something as one body, we can accomplish everything.. and this is a great example..
Dave,
I agree with you 100%…..
This is just the beginning..
Than you LORD for making this happen.. Our prayers were answered…
Long live Armenia
Janine thank you so much for phoning those who made this happen.. That is very important.. we should all do that…
Obama should be ashamed of himself. And now, we can expect to see all the official Turkish tantrums…like clockwork….as they take their marbles home and refuse to play. Believe it or not, Turkey will survive, but perhaps now, a little bit more grown up.
Although the Genocide Bill passed the Foreign Affairs Committee, Armenian Organizations must work desperately to work with Congressman & others to get passed thru the House. It must get out petitions to the President & State Dept. immediately signed by millions of people here in the states. Also demonstrations should take place all over the country along with the Capital in Washington, DC. Lets not waste time & act fast. Don’t let the Turks & the Israel lobby win again. The Israel lobby is the one working under the payroll of the Turks whom have convinced this country not to recognize our long overdue Armenian Genocide. Wake up Armenians Organizations & unite all Armenians before it is too late.
Hello, I hope everyone to read this comment. First one thing why is Armenia in need of proofing itself nor defend itself because FIRST AND ONLY REASON IS THE POPULATION not enough to fight for its rights that is why Republic of Armenia needs America’s support. Turkey always wanted to ERASE our history and it happened when people perished on our lands. I can’t believe it took 95 years to proof ourselves that genocide did happen, don’t you? All Christians suffered includes all Mediterranean countries like Bulgaria, Spain, Russia, Georgia, Greece, Eastern Armenia (Cilicia), Cypros and Western Armenia. What else is not enough to pass the GENOCIDE? Don’t forget that GENOCIDE will proof loss of Armenians but also all the other countries who suffered during this time. We need justice for all Christians. Genocide is not WAR because if it was we would live in Greater Armenia now and not TURKEY. LOOK AT YOUR OLD MAPS, NO TURKEY but only ARMENIA AND GREECE.
Again NO ONE OWNS THEIR LAND but it’s for people to live on so that is why Ancient Armenians never discriminated or dominated other nationalities nor killed them so that is why Turks killed us?BEGINNING ARMENIA CONQUERED ON TURKS AND WERE HIS CITIZENS (BEFORE OTTOMAN EMPIRE) DON”T FORGET THAT. TURKS HAVE NO HISTORY AND WERE CALLED SULJUK TURKS WHO CAME FORM ARABIAN COUNTRIES IN THE SOUTH.
Truth remains truth and myths stay just that. No amount of resolution by a bunch of politicians will ever change that. I am disappointed by the emotional reaction Turkish government shows and the capital they spend on this non-issue every year. It just feeds the frenzy. Congresses do not make history, facts make history.
To me, the more Turkey acts like a little child the more of a proof it is that they are hiding something. If you are a parent think about the times when your child has been lying to you, what happens when you call them out on their lie? They start to act exactly the same was as Turkey is acting; throwing tantrums and making empty threats.
Stephan I agree with you 100%.. We can just take this and relax.. We have to move fast fast fast.. Don’t let anyone breath or move.. We have to hold the bull by its horns..
Eva.. you could not be more right…
Ed.. After I ready your particle, the better I visualized how a child would act when they did something wrong.. You are absolutely right.. Turkey is acting like a guilty child.. When will they go away into the deep dessert and forests and leave the civilized life to civilized race..
God is smiling upon us.. Lets take this opportunity and go 100% forward and WIN 110%..
G
Turkey is a small country that needs the USA, they will go no where without the USA, so I DONT WANT TO HEAR ANY COMMENTS BY TURKEY, AMERICA can do whatever it wants because it’s a big powerful country and it can and will MAKE TURKEY do whatever it WANTS,
it’s as SIMPLE AS that. The US does not have to sell any weapons or anything else do TURKEY, we dont need TURKEY, but TURKEY WILL ALWAYS NEED the USA.
SO WHATEVER AMERICA WANTS, AMERICA GETS.. turkeys’ opinion does not count and they know it too.
Turkey is a small country that needs the USA, they will go no where without the USA, so I DONT WANT TO HEAR ANY COMMENTS BY TURKEY, AMERICA can do whatever it wants because it’s a big powerful country and it can and will MAKE TURKEY do whatever it WANTS,
it’s as SIMPLE AS that. The US does not have to sell any weapons or anything else do TURKEY, we dont need TURKEY, but TURKEY WILL ALWAYS NEED the USA.
.
USA CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS, turkey is a Muslim country, and Americans don’t like Muslims anyways, so THE USA CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS AND THERE IS NOTHING, Absolutely NOTHING TURKEY CAN DO… SORRY yeall.
Armenians don’t need to prove anything, they were busy being killed BY TURKS,
it was AMERICANS, EUROPEANS, AND THE PEOPLE OF THE MIDDLE EAST including their own muslims from other countries who took pictures, documented and saw with their own eyes as to what was happening and why.
And not only that, their own TUrks and KURDS till this day have stories about how they were told to kill the CHRISTIANS.
And another thing, a lot of these Muslim countries such as SYRIA, IRAN, etc… adopted Armenian kids because they were thrown in dry desert. So there is plenty of proof.
MUSLIM TURKS DID NOT LIKE CHRISTIANS, AND ARMENIANS HAPPEN TO BE CHRISTIAN so they took them out.
CNN STUDY TAKEN IN TURKEY SAID that 70% of Turks do NOT LIKE AMERICANS.
Turks killed Bulgarians, Irish, Greeks, Georgians, Romanians, Armenians, British, Serbs. etc….
SO their sins ARE MANY.
IT’S bizzare to see how Turkey who are such religious people and who pray 5 x day to the mighty GOD and yet DENY Something so sensitive and truthful.
BUT GOD/ALLAH IS Watching this, so their judgment will come in time.
THey should just come out and apologize and EVERYONE CAN GO ON WITH THEIR HAPPY LIVES.
simple as that.
Guess what people…Armenians are fighting more than just Turkey..they’re fighting every major Jewish organization, Israel and probably Obama’s right hand man, Rahm Emmanuel, as well. Make no mistake about it folks.
I’m getting sick and tired of reading these anti-semitic messages and wonder if we haven’t been infiltrated by many neo-Nazis and/or Muslim haters. The truth is that all four Jewish committee members voted FOR the resolution. Those four are Howard Berman, Gary Ackerman, Brad Sherman, and Elliot Engel. The co-sponsor of the resolution itself is Jewish Congressman Adam Schiff. So please take your twisted version of reality, in which your websites even print BS like the principals of the Young Turk government that administered the genocide were really Jews although they put on an act that they were Muslims (???!!!), back to the hole from which you crawled out.
True Valeriy, but…behind the scenes ever single major Jewish organization in the US and the state of Israel have fought on behalf of Turkey and against anything that recognizes the Armenian genocide. Have you heard of AIPAC, the ADL, Abe Foxman? It’s not anti-Semitic to cite these facts, sorry. It’s their behaviors that are, however, anti-Armenian. If they don’t want to be perceived as Armenian haters and deniers who work on behalf of Turkey and promoting its lies, then they should change tactics. Support historical truth. Pretty easy, if you ask me. When that happens, I’ll change my message to one of appreciation. How’s that?
I agree Valeriy. Without the help of Jews, there would be no movement at all regarding the Armenian Genocide. Too many Armenians overlook this. The relationship between Armenians and Jews is growing and will continue to grow. While AIPAC, JINSA, and ADL/AJC still work against Armenians, the Jewish people know the truth and are starting to make changes from within those organizations. For Armenians, just visit Ynet or the Jerusalem Post to see how much support we have had these last few days.
Valeriy, you are very correct. I think anti-semitism in the Armenian community exists because of Israel’s alliance with Turkey and Azerbaijan. It gets Armenia no where. Instead we must realize the majority of Jews side with Armenians and sympathize with us. Soon the alliance with Israel and Turkey will end. It was a marriage of convenience and there will soon be a divorce. The day of the neo-cons has ended.
Everyone needs to remember that the Turkey-Israel-Azerbaijan bond is and will continue to be very strong. The Ceyhan pipeline brings oil from Baku to the Turkish coast and then to Israel – a country with no oil and lots of hostile neighbors. The latest round of protocols is designed to create a problem free passageway for oil from central Asia, that will go under the Caspian, cross Azerbaijan and then get into Turkey. The bottom line is that oil is alot thicker and more important than the Armenian genocide for Israel…and I doubt that will change anytime soon, despite all the recent drama.
Hey Murat, if you want facts, The United States National Archives and Record Administration holds extensive and thorough documentation on the Armenian Genocide, especially in its holdings under Record Group 59 of the United States Department of State, files 867.00 and 867.40, which are open and widely available to the public and interested institutions. Sorry but the Armenian genocide is not in doubt any more then the Holocaust . It is clear cut genocide so says the IAGS and ICTJ. The only ones wanting to “leave it to historians” and “have a historical debate” are you Turks and your paid cronies precisely to prolong the inevitable. The real debate is how long does the US want to lie for Turkey?
We cant blame the Jews for these things , even though jews have a lot of power in w.d.c. i saw that documentary by Jimmy Carter, it was very interesting.
But Jews realized quickly that Muslim Turks were not on their side when the Turkish president or prime minister threw a fit and insulted the JEWS publicly for killing Palestinians.
But as far as Rahm Emmanuel HE will be fired sooner then all of you think, trust me. There is a story about him that he was at a restaurant and someone called him on his cell phone and told him bad news about something, and then people at the restaurant saw him get the table knife and stab the wooden table many, many times, out of rage and he was cussing out, which is unacceptable, but it’s a true story.
Karekin,
While SOME Jewish organizations may publicly state their opposition to the resolution (and let’s not forget that 22 non-Jewish Congressmen just stated their opposition to the resolution by their negative committee votes), that does not mean that they are “denying” the Armenian genocide.
Indeed, to the extent that Jews also suffered unspeakable horrors during their Holocaust, it seems certain that they would not be inclined to deny genocide.
As an example, let us take a look at JINSA’s recent call for the defeat of the resolution. They acknowledge, as a historical fact, that the genocide occurred but state their opinion that it’s not the job of the US government to issue resolutions about WHAT HAPPENED a long time ago in a foreign country.
And JINSA furthermore states that it doesn’t appreciate Turkey threatening it with future harm unless it and other Jewish organizations work to defeat the resolution.
I can’t imagine that people in government offices in Ankara are rejoicing about JINSA’s press release. It is a SCATHING indictment of Turkey’s wrongdoing, both in the past and in the present.
OK Valeriy…please name just one Armenian organization that has publicly and loudly denied the holocaust, or voted against it’s recognition anywhere? The holocaust happened a long time ago in a foreign country, and didn’t involve any Armenians….it was between the Jews and the Germans, yet everyone else has gotten pulled into it. Frankly, I think Armenians are sick of hearing it, as if Jews were the only ones to have gone thru such a thing. Every Jew should be ashamed of their organizations…to which they send tons of money and support. Jews are not above everyone else, especially when it comes to genocide. Raphael Lemkin, a Jew, knew this very well. You should too.
Karekin,
I don’t know what you’re talking about. As with all people, Jews affiliate themseleves with all types of political organizations, some of which may or may not support the Armenian Genocide resolution for whatever reason any one particular organization may have.
Again, 22 Congressman just voted against the Armenian Genocide resolution (if you don’t know, the vote was 23 for and 22 against), and I don’t see you discussing the ethnic groups to which those Congressmen belong.
And how exactly have you been “pulled into” the Holocaust? I don’t know that any Jewish person or Jewish organization has ever asked anyone to do anything regarding the Holocaust. So please spell out exactly what labors you’ve apparently endured in connection with the Jewish Holocaust. I. personally, have never been asked in any way, shape, or form to do anything regarding the Jewish Holocaust.
One of my messages above was in direct response to your obviously virulent and vicious anti-semitism, to which I responded by pointing out that all four Jewish congressmen on the Committee, Howard Berman, Gary Ackerman, Brad Sherman, and Elliot Engel, voted FOR the resolution. I might add that they didn’t just VOTE for the bill, but spoke passionately in favor of it. The co-sponsor of the resolution itself is Jewish Congressman Adam Schiff.
So keep trying to find whatever angle you can to attack Jews. Your hatred is readily apparent and gets us nowhere. If you ARE Armenian and not a Muslim infiltrator, you’re an embarassment to me, particularly after the strong support given to us by Jewish Congressmen.
Look Valeriy, I don’t think any Armenian has anything to apologize for regarding the holocaust, but the people who are and have been working so hard against the acknowledgment of the Armenian genocide certainly do. Don’t you think it’s just a bit odd that Armenians are regularly questioned and undermined on the genocide, not just by the Turkish govt and nationalists, but by a group of well paid hacks in the US? And, you don’t think people should be angry or respond to that? Fighting fire w/ fire always works….anything else is pathetic and a waste of time.
Hye Valeriy, what say you of the ADL leadership? Of course, in all nations we have those who seek and know of the Armenian Genocide – which believe me, we are most appreciative. But we also have the ADL elements… who too, having suffered their Genocide, yet politically, cannot align themselves with our Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation – morally, this saddens me. For a Genocide is a Genocide is a Genocide – to whomever, wherever, whether perpetrated by a foe or an ‘ally”.
This is not an issue of anti-Semitism or anti-Armenianism. We face government leaderships who are
so politically bound – the moral aspect of Genocides – humans killing humans – is even labelled as
‘inappropriate’ by a Hilary – imagine, any slaughters and tortures of humans labelled ‘inappropriate’!
Manooshag
P.S. Valeriy, just imagine – if the Ottoman Turks and their subsequent leaderships in denials of the Turkish Genocide had been brought to face justice – admit their guilt, pay the reparations due and owing the Armenian nation – ALL of the Genocides, including the Jewish Holocaust, shall never have
been – since despots shall have known that any such treatments of fellow humans was never to be allowed by civilized leaderships of nations – anywhere on our planet!
So, our pursuit of recognition of Genocides shall be the example – those who pursue Genocides to
gain their convoluted goals – shall need to face the world – shall need to be recognized as Genociders,
shall be punished before the world. Genocides – the inhumanity of humans againt humans. Sadly.M
No one did anythign for the ARMENIANS
No one did anything for the Armenians in 1915 and HENCE GOD ALLOWED THE JEWS AND 60 MILLION PEOPLE FROM ALL NATIONS TO DIE IN WWII, oh well, GOD IS GREAT I ALWAYS SAY.
No one did anything in 1915? Russian armies led and joined by Armenians were devestating whole of Eastern Anatolia during 1915 while the largest armada ever assemebled in history was assaulting Gelibolu. No one did anything? As if anyone owed anything to anyone, and as if anyone did anything for anyone… some people have no sense of perspective or reality. I mean really…
Murat,
“Russian armies led and joined by Armenians were devistating whole of Eastern Anatolia during 1915 while the largest armada ever assembled in history was assaulting Gelibolu.”?
Please go read a history book not written by a Turk (nor an Armenian, for that matter) and you’ll see that your grasp on issue is tenuous, at best.
Hei John,
if you want to convince poeople the debate must go on. If you stop the debate, mere force remains.
Geopolitical factors dimishes the US influence, something evidenced by Turkey’s refusal to let the US use the bases in the Iraq war. So nothing will change except that one more country acknowledges the genocide. Turkey needs to appease its nationalists, will protest, and after this it will be business as usual, like in French-Turkish relations.
Even the close vote in the House Committee testifies to the fact that both Turks and Armenians can call this a victory, if they insist to
Let me give one input to the debate: you mention the ICTJ. Now the ICTJ does not specify any perpetrator, but the genocide thesis as it usually is stated, claims the state apparatus and heads of state were the perpetrators. But that well-documented massacres like in Diyarbakir, Kemah and Kahta were instances of genocide, provided the 1948 definition, is very difficult to deny.
Murat
nice to talk to you again. But the Armenians properly did not lead Russian armies in 1915, even if some generals were of Armenian stock. They acted under the Russian high command.And they did not devastate Eastern Anatolia in 1915. The devastation that produced 1.2 million muslim refugees came in 1916.
Of course the assessment of the importance of the Armnenian guerilla movement should be better. But why not leave the polarized language and try to make one single discource, at least in the places where this is easy? An example: It is claimed that the guerilla movement was planning an insurrection or revolution in 1915, as McCarthy says, or it is claimed that Armenians were only preparing to defend themselves, as Anaide Ter Minassian says. But isnt it better to say that the Dashnaktsiutun followed a policy of Attentism: if attacked, to defend themselves, if the Russians invaded, to assist them, as important Armenian segments had done in every Russian invasion of this area since the beginning of the 1800-eds? Why is it so difficult for both parties to admit that Dashnak policy at the time was attentism and neither pure self-defence nor pure revolutionary aim? Akcam obviously minimizes the activist role of the insurgents in the relevant chapter in “A Shameful Act”, and McCarthy overdoes the headline REVOLUTION.
Some months ago I asked you, Murat, what to think of the impunity with which those who massacred Armenians were treated. Halacoglu purported to show that Gurun was right in claiming that 1.200 muslims were brought to justice for atrocities against Armenian deportees, but later it appears that only a few were tried for this, and almost all were tried for appropriating Armenian property. The only instances of perpetrators being tried and punished was in Greater Syria, under Cemal’s auspices.
What to think of the intentions of a state that chose not to punish these perpetrators, as Talaat himself acknowledges?
But why go on with a debate which is a mere repetition? And what will be the cost for both parties of not debating properly, really addressing the core issue, adressing the strongest arguments of the adversary, and instead of this just stay in one’s cozy trenches and hope everybody else in time will know the truth?
For anyone, anywhere to assert that minority Anatolian Armenians – most of whom were forced into walking, barely clothed and starving, on dusty roads to Syria, could have decimated the vastly superior armed forces of the Ottoman army of Kurdish bandoleers is just ridiculous. The myth of an Armenian military capable of doing anything is beyond crazy. Please, read some history – find a copy of Dr. Howard M. Sachar’s book, The Emergence of the Middle East: 1914 – 1923. It has the best and most historically accurate recount of what happened in Anatolia during those years. It is unbiased and covers all sides during this period. It is invaluable. It will open your eyes to the truth, which has many sides, but none that justify what the CUP did to the Armenians.
Welcome back Ragnar. Nice to hear a voice of reason and if not complete thruth. Yes, it is repetitive and I should know better, why one expects a different result repeating the same arguments and facts and getting the same response every time, I have no idea. I do not mind, if it seeds one question mark in one single mind, it makes it worthwhile.
I fail to see with what impunity those who were found to have mistreated Armenian refugees improperly were treated themselves. At least there were courts. At least there were trials. At least there were convictions and not the least, at least one hanging, of a Kaymakam no less. At least there was some ackowledgement of wrong doing. I am sure Armenians would have liked more and more of the defeated Ottomans tried and hanged. Afterwards, Armenian assasins themsleves tracked those whom they considered responsible at the highest levels and hunted them down, with impunity I might add. What other justice was left to extract? You think maybe a mass killing of more Turks would have satisfied the blood lust. Well, maybe, ASALA did try after all, with impunity again.
Would you care to comment now on how many of the Armenian leaders and revolutionaries have faced the music? I mean in any other part of the world, at any time in history, if a group of fanatics (we call them Taliban now) led their people to such disasters and eventually have them evicted from their ancestoral lands and left them destitude, sick and famished, belive me and I am sure you already know, heads would have rolled. If Enver and Talat had survived the war and caught, Turkish Nationalists would have prosecuted them for throwing the country into the meat grinder of WWI. Does anyone have any doubts?
So tell us then how and when the leaders of the Armenian gangs and murderers and insurgents, who took so many lives, who caused so much pain and loss, both of Turks and Armenians, faced the music?
Mr Murat,
Thank you for your scewed comments to try to portray this picture of Armenians who magically raised themselves and attacked Turks.. The Armenians are the rebells who murdered, killed, raped, and destroyed a culture, and a race.. ARE YOU FOR REAL?
Please… every time I see your name, my blood pressure goes up.. Do me a favor and go back to Turkey or wherever you came from because honestly, you are definintely turning this tide into a mud.. and I am not planning to have a bad month because of your incompetent comments…..
Just so you know… Justice was not done by killing Enver and Talaat point blank…that was a pure mercy on them.. they and those who orchastrated The Genocide should have been thrown into the lion den just like in the Roman Times.. and have them torn into pieces by the animals.. maybe that would have been a proper punishment for them..
Thank you and have a nice evening..
G
Murat
Yes, it is good that people stay in the debate. And we may repeat our position, of course, but not argue it by consistently adressing the weakest arguments of our adversary. This is repetition.
I challenge you to document that one single person was tried and punished for atrocities against Armenians in courts outside Greater Syria. As far as I know the list of all Ottoman court martials in the period 1914-1918 is by now available for independent scholars. Halacolgu and Sarinay held that many were punished for atrocities against Armenians, but since the rebuttal by Akcam they have been remarkably silent.
The reality is, there no debate, at least among most educated people in the world. The Ottoman govt conducted ethnic cleansing on a mass scale and destroyed 20 – 25% of the native population of Anatolia and replaced them with non-Turkish imports from the Balkans. Anyone who disputes this history or refuses to acknowledge it is akin to neo-Nazis who insist Hitler only acted in a benevolent, caring way towards the Jews. Here, we have neo-Ittihadists who seem to think and want us to believe that the CUP was a charitable organization. They are pushing govt propaganda that equates the actions of ASALA to the murders of 1.5 million people, as if it’s remotely comparable. Yes, Armenians fought back, but in a very limited way…it’s called self-defense – just as the Palestinians are fighting back today, to keep their land, their homes and their lives, but were essentially powerless against the forces of the empire and the racist psychopaths of the CUP. For Turkish nationalists to defend what happened is beyond stupid, and, it’s a clear propaganda ploy. They are defending murderers and liars and thieves…and if they were remotely intelligent human beings, would be embarrassed by it.
Abraham, I searched for Hocali and found an apparently fictional author and book. I searched for the purported Armenian journalist (now reportedly living in Beirut) and found only references to a few pages of his purported book, nearly all on Azeri or Turkish sites (and once on a Chechnian Jihadi site). I searched for the book on Amazon.com and found nothing. So I am not sure what happened in Hocali.
maybe you should learn to speak English and study some documented history before you leave ignorant threats.
Murat,
You are speaking about Armenians fighting on the side of Russians in WWI, and I tell you the able male who miraculously escaped from Talaat’s systematic order to annihilate every Armenian human being who lived in Turkey in 1915 also fought on the Turkish front in WWI. Thus Armenians in Turkey fought against Armenians in Russia. Whoever was the citizen of a given country fought for the country that they lived in. My own grandfather at the time fought for Turkey as he lived in Western Armenia, today’s eastern Turkey. He was a high ranking officer in the Turkish army and he was sent to the front. Your assumptions that it was Armenians who fought for Russia is absurd. If Armenians happened to be of Russian citizen then they had to fight for Russia, and the same applied to Turkey. However Talaat’s and Enver’s order came in 1915 to annihilate all Armenians who lived in Turkey, and they have achieved what they were after. Thus they killed more than 1.5 Million Armenians who lived in Turkey right after they gathered and killed 300 Armenian intellectuals on April 24, 1915. There are numerous books on this subject, why don’t you educate yourself and know the truth but you won’t find it in Turkey as it is against Turkishness to speak or gain any knowledge about the Armenian Genocide in Turkey, your life will be in danger – you have to seek it from the outside world who are not so biased as the Turkish government. The A.R.F. were simply trying but couldn’t achieve much to defend the populace. They only tried to defend themselves and the people, which they did only in Van and thank God the Russian army finally came and they rescued the Armenian people in Van. The Armenian Revolutionary Federation didn’t even know that the CUP were plotting against the Armenian people in Turkey, if they did, they wouldn’t have associated with the CUP in and around 1908. But after the Adana massacres the A.R.F. distanced themselves from the CUP. Talaat himself said months after of April, 1915, that “by now Armenians are extremely angry, so we have to finish the job of annihilating every Armenian”. He later said, “Armenians will not be able to raise their heads for 50 years after this”. Meaning the killings and the blow of the Armenian Genocide that he systematically and successfully plotted and carried it out was so enormous and horrendous for the Armenians that they won’t be able to complain nor ask for reparations when there is very little left of them (are extinct) and mostly they’re either orphaned children or people in very poor and destitute condition, now scattered all around the world.
No one did anything early to STOP it, i dont care what they did after armenians were being killed off, and Russia only helped because they wanted to gain something and that was to make Armenia a communist country just like them. So people do things for their own gain not because they like your pretty eyes.
“Rahm Emanuel is son of the devil’s spawn, Rep. Eric Massa (D-NY) said. “He is an individual who would sell his mother to get a vote. He would strap his children to the front end of a steam locomotive.”
Rep. Massa describes a confrontation with Emanuel in a shower: “I am showering, naked as a jaybird, and here comes Rahm Emanuel, not even with a towel wrapped around his tush, poking his finger in my chest, yelling at me.”
To Nairian and others,
Mention has been made to Talat Pasha, etc. Armenians even produced a document “written” by Talat Pasha himself, ordering exterminations. One small problem though…this document, as well as so many other “documents of evidence” which the dashnak Armeninas keep prancing around, have long since been proven to be poor forgeries! One classic version of the Talat telegram was “written on a French school’s stationary”, and was actually being tried to be passed off as authentic by dashnaks. The first document was shown to be fake when, after examination, the seal of Talat was completely wrong and the codes which he used (in every message) weren’t even close.
As for the rest of your comments, Hitler once said that if one tells a lie to the people long enough, they’ll eventually start to believe it! Nuff said!
Robert denialist Turk,
There are enough proofs from numerous sources about the veracity of Talaat’s documents, telegrams to the Syrian governor to exterminate any Armenian who finally set foot in Syria; despite the fact that they were all women and children, who walked the death marches without food nor water, and miraculously survived the death marches, half dead half alive and yet Talaat’s telegram to the Syrian governor distinctly ordered him to kill all Armenians (women and children), and because the Syrian governor didn’t obey Talaat’s orders he had to leave his post. There are numerous such documents by the then US Ambassador Morgenthau alarming the US State Department of Talaat’s systematic annihilations of the Armenians in Turkey. And as of late, a complete diary of Talaat was given away by his wife who systematically plotted the annihilation of the whole Armenian race. Btw; you turks don’t know anything else than to blame every which way on the Tashnags, you don’t know anything else but that.
Btw; Hitler and the Turks have a great deal in common, don’t they? Yes they do indeed. In fact, what Hitler said that if one tells a lie to the people long enough, they’ll eventually start to believe it! Applies exactly to the Turkish population in Turkey, including yourself as you and your people have been brainwashed by your government now for 95 years that Turkey is a peaceful, non-genocidal country and you suckers believe it.
Robert,
What Hitler said in regards to telling a lie long enough to people they’ll eventually start to believe it, it typically applies to the Turkish people in your country and yourself as well; because you people have been so very well brainwashed by your government that for 95 years you people believe that throughout 900 years of your history ever since you mongolian Turks charged in to our country have been peaceful non-genocidal people. What Hitler said it applies exactly to you all brainwashed Turkish people.
Mr Robert…
I feel sorry for you sir.. I feel sorry that your brain cells no longer have their own movements.. the way they brainwashed you is absolutely amazing.. WOW.. i applaud Turkish govt for doing a great job at it..
however, your obsession with Dashnaks and your statements that go back to them at every chance you get will not serve you justice.. why don’t you just drop it and admit that what you are saying sounds soooo ridiculeous that I don’t even want to write anything.. however, my fingers are just typing as if they want to rip your words apart and slap you out of you dream world..
YOU yourself just proved a HUGE point sir Robert.. and I quote… “Hilter once said that if one tells a lie to the people long enough, they will eventually start to believe it..” wow.. what a clear cut statement about Turkey and its people…perfectly describes you Robert and your govt.. Thank you for bringing that out to light.. Appreciate it…:) ENOUGH SAID…..
Have a nice evening Sir…
G
I have one book written by a Turkish historian which footnotes an order to exterminate the Armenians signed by a German high command. Robert, you are telling the lies over and over again. Why, I don’t know. I have a lot of books; probably some or many of them are available in Turkish libraries and bookstores. One of the writers in Hurriyet said for instance Toynbee’s history is readily available. He said books are available on this topic in Turkey which tell the truth, but also he doesn’t feel that he has to be held responsible for the genocide because he didn’t do it. I agree with him. The younger Turks who are not responsible for it should not be held responsible. Perhaps, that is why there is more freedom to talk about this subject in Turkey. The perpetrators of the genocide are dead; perhaps their crimes were being hidden by Turkey since many of them served in the govt. Now that the criminals are dead, there is no longer a reason not to talk about the genocide, about what happened; there is no reason to have article 301, a penal code punishing people for speaking about it. After the genocide, the govt. was ready to make restitutions to the Armenians, but that govt. fell and Ataturk’s took over. Maybe there were too many guilty people in Ataturk’s govt. and they kept their guilt a secret. But now all those people are dead; there is no reason to protect people who are no longer alive. The new generation is not guilty and should be able to speak about the Armenians. Therefore, all Turkey’s gag orders, bribing of our politicians and your posts are no longer necessary; they are sure to be a relic of the past, more so as time goes on.
Gayane,
Since my comments that good people here have found fit to print drive you up the wall give you violent thoughts, here are some alternatives, in fact, two very distinguished Armenian leaders who were in the middle of it all and are as authoritative as anyone else on the topic.
Hovannes Katchznouni was the first prime minister of Republic of Armenia. He was a prominent Dashnak leader. His manifesto he presented in the Dashnak congress in 1923 is an excellent summary of the state of the affairs of Armenians and also a good insiders view of Armenian efforts going back decades to undermine and participate in the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, homeland of so many Armenians. Here are the parts I would like you to really absorb:
“It would be useless to argue today whether our bands of volunteers should have entered the field or not. Historical events have their irrefutable logic. In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands organized themselves and fought against the Turks because they could not refrain themselves from organizing and refrain themselves from fighting. This was in an inevitable result of a psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an entire generation: that mentality should have found its expression, and did so. And it was not the A.R.F. that would stop the movement even if it wished to do so. It was able to utilize the existing conditions, give effect and issue to the accumulated desires, hopes and frenzy, organize the ready forces – it had that much ability and authority. But to go against the current and push forward its own plan – it was unfit, especially unfit for one particular reason: instinct but weak in comprehension.”
Also:
“The Winter of 1914 and the Spring of 1915 were the periods of greatest enthusiasm and hope for all the Armenians in the Caucasus, including, of course, the Dashnagtzoutiun. We had no doubt that the war would end with the complete victory of the Allies; Turkey would be defeated and dismembered, and its Armenian population would at last be liberated. We had embraced Russia whole-heartedly without any compunction. Without any positive basis of fact we believed that the Tzarist government would grant us a more-or-less broad self-government in the Caucasus and in the Armenian vilayets liberated from Turkey as a reward for our loyalty, our efforts and assistance. We had created a dense atmosphere of illusion in our minds. We had implanted our own desires into the minds of others; we had lost our sense of reality and were carried away with our dreams.”
Also here is the letter of one of the prominent leaders of the Armenians, Bogos Nubar Pasa, an Ottoman citizen, sent to the Allies and newspapers in the West, to make a case for inclusion in the Lausanne Conference, on the opposite side of the Ottoman delegates, among the Western powers trying to exctract thast few concessions from the new Turkish Republic:
The name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause. The unspeakable sufferings and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact, unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia’s tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey. Our volunteers fought in the French ‘Legion Etrangere’ and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby. In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed
The name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause. The unspeakable sufferings and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact, unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia’s tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey. Our volunteers fought in the French ‘Legion Etrangere’ and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed”
Is there anything to add to the above? Most of these people were born and raised Ottoman citizens, they held high posts in the Ottoman government and state! Given the massive and mortal threat Armenians presented, it is even commendable and remarkable how tolerant and accomodating the Ottoman policies were. I am sure very little of this will penetrate. Facts are no match to the power of myths.
Nairian,
You seem to have failed to see the irony and contradictions in your grandafathers service as an officier in the Ottoman army while supposedly Turks, driven mad by extreme nationalism, were trying to exterminate their Armenian citizens. Even a bigger contradiction is of course the fact that Armenians were among the leaders and founders of that dreaded and Armenian-hating CUP! Obviously two sets of facts can not be true at the same time. My grandfather had a Greek camp de aide who saved his life and a Greek doctor in his unit. This did not prevent what followed in 1919-1923. There were of course patriotic Armenians who resented enemy boots on their soil, and they were dealt with rather harshly. Many Armenians who were civil servants or people of means who did not support the Dashnak cause were brutally assasinated. My grandfather witnessed a child assasin take out a partizan leader who was seeking his protection, right in frontt of him – reminds one of the more recent tactics of another fanatical group. He saw first hand the handywork of the fedayi, now all credited goes to the Turks of course. He was astonished to find, based on a tip, a huge cache of weapons in a hidden basement in Akdamar Church, automatic pistols that even as a professional soldier he had never seen before. Armenians by that time had established even underground war academies, they could field troops which fought pitched battles with Ottoman Army, and were instrumental in the fall and capture of major cities in the East, Van as you mentioned, and Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum, Erzincan, etc. not to mention brutal killing of most of their Muslim populations, including my granfather’s family. Do not take my word, check into any of your propaganda books and you will see pictures of well armed fedayi all over the place. They did a lot more than defend themselves having prepared for this battle for decades since the Berlin Treaty. Read my earlier post. Get informed. It is hillarious that you urge me to get educated on the topic while repeating the farce of Talat’s orders and myth of 1.5M dead Armenians. While you are at it, why not quote Hitler too!
Karekin
I believe you underestimate the revolutionary and activist aspect of the Dashnak movement. It does not seem right to portray it as a merely defensive movement. This also seems to be reflected in central Armenian historiography, like Nalbandian’s history of the Armenian nationalist movement, and in Anaide Ter Minassian’s history which even contains a whole chapter named the Bulgarian Way. That is, the strategy to provoke Muslim reprisals and count on the interventions of the powers, like in Bulgaria. The speech of Katchaznouni of course also testifies to this.
But as I have said earlier it is in a way meaningless to make a dichotomy between defensive and offensive strategies. The Dashnaks worked to promote the interests of Armenians, and this might mean to defend local communties but on the other hand to seize the moment as revolutionaries and rebel against the Ottoman State. I believe one should not be moralistic about this. The Dashnaks planned for rebellion like so many peoples who lived as minorities or with foreign masters. They also worked for self-defence. One can hardly blame them from a moral point of view. There is nothing dishonorable in rebelling. But sometimes it is a dangerous game. But dont portray rebels as if they were determined by events and had no choice. It is strange to portray the Ottoman Armenians as if they simply were peaceful peasants and merchants who for some strange reason became victims of genocide.
Murat,
There is nothing that it can derail from the truth or contradictory when we speak about a people’s history. My grandfather for 2 years was in the Turkish academy before he was sent to the front. As a matter of fact he didn’t know the facts about the systematic annihilation of all Armenians in the Turkish empire. He learned it later that all his 35 member family were all either killed on the spot and the women had to walk the death marches. From his whole family only his one younger brother and his sister survived. Thus including himself, 32 members were killed by the Turkish government’s orders. On my father’s side my father was the only survivor in his entire and extensive family. On my maternal grandmother’s side in Smyrna when Cemal Ataturk burned Smyrna, her entire 150 member family were all slaughtered in cold blood. Only 5 of them surved out of 150 members. So yes, these are facts and they are the history of my own family, let alone my entire Armenian nation when more than 1.5 Million of them were annihilated brutally and atrociously. For your information the A.R.F. were not able to do practically nothing at all in Erzeroum or Erzingan when my father recalls that the Armenians after walking the death marches from Erzeroum, they were taken a little further from the city of Kharpert and they were all slaughtered first then thrown into the ditches. My own father saw all these Armenian masses of people coming into town then being taken away. Mr. Davis from the United States who was in Kharpert at the time went and saw how all the Armenians were being slaughtered and where they were being thrown. Davis has recorded all this and his manuscripts still exist.
In Erzencun, you can read what happened to the poor Armenian people in there by reading Soghomon Tehlirian’s memoirs when he defended himself in-front of a jury in Germany. His whole family were slaughtered right in-front of his eyes and he was miraculously saved as he was brutally knocked down and thought to be dead under his family’s corpses. Van was the only city that the ARF’s Fedayis were able to save the people from being slaughtered by the Turkish government, because the ARF was able to arm the people and train them before the Genocide.
Murat,
The truth and facts of our sad history are anything but myths. They are not myths that the Turkish government headed by Talaat Pasha systematically gave the orders to annihilate every Armenian that lived in Turkey in 1915. All you have to do is to educate yourself and speak the truth about it, but you won’t learn this from your denyalist Turkish government of today, there is the 301 Rule in Turkey that is against Turkishness to utter about the Armenian Genocide. Why is that? I know for one thing, because they are afraid that when the whole world passes the Armenian Genocide Resolution they’ll be faced with their country’s ugly truth of Genocide against their harmless citizens who were brutally, atrociously and barbarically slaughtered in cold blood from 1915 – 1923. Isn’t that why the Armenian Genocide preoccupies Turkey so much that they have to give the US congressmen millions of dollars every year to gag them and to vote against the passing of the Genocide Resolution? Face the facts, the truth will set you and your country Turkey free!
To: Nairian
We all have similar family history…. alot in common! My grandfather lost his first wife in Kayseri in 1917? 1918? Grandpa manged to go to Cypus & then to Egypt, His only son survived and later came to Alexandria with grandpa’s sister.Thank you for telling the truth to people who have no sense to read for themselves!
Ragnar,
The case of Ain Wardo and other villages and towns of Tur Abdin shows that it was not merely a case of rebellion and response. I recommend David Gaunt’s book, ‘Massacres, Resistance, Protectors: Muslim Christian Relations in Eastern Anatolia During World War I’. I would also recommend research on Raphael Lemkin, creator of the legal term ‘genocide’.
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
Bob Griffin,
no, obviously it was not merely a case of a reaction to a rebellion. My departure was from the following words by Karekin:
quote
For anyone, anywhere to assert that minority Anatolian Armenians – most of whom were forced into walking, barely clothed and starving, on dusty roads to Syria, could have decimated the vastly superior armed forces of the Ottoman army of Kurdish bandoleers is just ridiculous. The myth of an Armenian military capable of doing anything is beyond crazy.
Unquote
To my mind this means belittling the role of the Armenian revolutionary movement. To portray those who point to the importance of the revolutionary movement as implying that the deportees could fight the ottoman army is absurd. And neither could the ARF alone fight the Ottoman army. No, the threat was from Armenian guerilla cooperating with the Russian army. This made the Armenians – as guerillas and as civilian population providing sustenance for the Russians – a very dangerous element in the picture in early spring 1915. For me it is strange to deny this.
From Gaunt’s book and many other sources it is evident that many Armenians and other Christians who never rebelled were targeted both for deportation and for massacre. The Armenians were mainly targeted on suspicion, I believe. There were many killers around, like Dr. Reshid. What to my mind is less evident is that this was the result of an explicit policy emerging in a consistent way from the top echelons of the state. possibly it was so, possibly not.
Be well
Ragnar Naess
German Responsibility in the Armenian Genocide: A Review of the Historical Evidence of German Complicity, by Vahakn N. Dadrian, Cambridge, Mass.: Blue Crane Books, 1996. Pp. 304.
“Vahakn N. Dadrian, an internationally well-known scholar on the Armenian genocide wrote an exceedingly important and scholarly book, not directly related to the issue of his long life interest of Armenian Genocide, but on the German Responsibility in the Armenian Genocide. This book is a review of the historical evidence of German complicity in the Armenian genocide. Indeed, Hitler once said “who remembers the Armenians?” in contemplating the Jewish holocaust. The focus of the present study is an examination of the role that German officials (both military and civilian) played in the Armenian genocide by Turkey, then an ally of Germany during World War I.”
This was written for German readers. A review of the book is in findarticles.com