The procrastination by the Turkish Parliament in ratifying the Turkish-Armenian protocols turned out to be a temporary victory for those Armenians who understood the insidious effect implementation of these documents would have on the future political and economic viability of Armenia.
The signing of the protocols in Zurich, Switzerland by Foreign Ministers Eduard Nalbandian and Ahmet Davutoglu on Oct. 10, 2009 under the watchful eyes of Secretary of State Hillary Rodman Clinton was no less a calamity than the Treaty of Kars between the Soviet Union and Turkey in 1920, which was ratified by a prostrated Armenia on Sept. 11, 1922. Normalization is not intended to meet the economic, political, or security needs of Armenia. An open border will, in time, essentially make Armenia an economic dependency of Turkey. There have been no expository studies cited by Armenian proponents of normalization to support their position (see “The Roadmap to Normalization Is a Roadmap to Oblivion for Armenia,” the Armenian Weekly, May 23, 2009)
Normalization primarily serves Turkish interests. Several immediately come to mind: 1) normalization would burnish Turkey’s image as a conciliatory neighbor willing to forget the past (why wouldn’t Ankara want to forget its past?) in order to bring stability to the south Caucasus; 2) it would enhance Turkey’s attempt to gain entry into the European Union; 3) Ankara’s determination for a commission to reconsider the events of 1915-23 (seems innocent enough) is to cast doubt on the planned systematic murder of 1.5 million Armenian men, women, and children as being a genocide; 4) a careful reading of the protocols enumerates principles that would technically hamstring Armenian support of the Artsakh Armenians (Turkey is committed to having Karabagh (Artsakh) returned to Azerbaijani control); and 5) ratification will facilitate an expansion of Turkish economic and diplomatic influence across the Caspian Sea into central Asia and the Middle East.
Presently a renewed effort by Turkey to have the protocols ratified is being supported by forces outside as well as inside the Armenian nation. While individual Armenians and Armenian organizations certainly have the liberty to express their support for or against the protocols, is it too much to ask proponents how normalization as suggested by these documents would benefit Armenia? Opinions and official positions taken by Armenian organization unsupported by facts are not only valueless, but exceedingly dangerous because the debate loses its required objectivity and degenerates into an emotional “argument.”
As an aside, President Obama continues to praise the Erdogan government for having created a vibrant democracy reinforced by the fact that nearly 80 percent of the electorate recently turned out to vote on a number of referendums. Well over 90 percent of the Soviet electorate consistently voted in their elections. By his standard that would have qualified the Soviet Union as a vibrant democracy. Yet, since 1960, presidential elections in the United States have never involved more than 63 percent of the electorate. Where does that put the United States as a democracy?
Erdogan’s visit with Obama at the White House on Dec. 6 of this year will focus on reinforcing Turkey’s objective to link the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabagh issue with normalization. It seems that the proponents of rapprochement, whether foreign interests or some Armenian organizations, appear willing to abandon our brothers and sisters in Artsakh for an open border and the yet-to-be-determined benefits normalization is expected to provide Armenia. The future wellbeing of the Artsakh Armenians is based on some vague belief that eventually all will work out for the better. The situation of the Javakhkahayer (Javakheti Armenians) in Georgia should be a wake-up call to all Armenians as to what would happen to the Artsakh Armenians should they lose their freedom and independence and revert to Azerbaijani control. To condemn them to a situation they had to endure for some 70 years before their successful war of liberation cannot be considered an acceptable option.
President Obama speaks of the Armenian murders as one of the “…great atrocities of the 20th century.” Having said that, he quickly appeases the Turkish leadership by supporting their determination to link normalization to a “…full, frank, and just acknowledgment of the facts.” Again, what different outcome could a reconsideration of the facts yield? The genocide occurred and it is a fact that Obama personally accepts. Turkey seeks such a commission because its make-up will preclude a unanimous decision affirming that a genocide did take place. This result is almost guaranteed even with all the evidence contained in the official documents in the various archives of Europe and Washington, by personal accounts and photographs of survivors and eyewitnesses, mass burial grounds yet to be exhumed, and an entire region devoid of its historic inhabitants. The commission will have served Turkish interests if it simply casts doubt and creates additional questions concerning the events that occurred from 1915-23. It is not difficult to imagine the pressure that would be brought to bear on Armenia by various foreign governments and some Armenian organizations to accept the commission’s conclusions ostensibly for the good of the Armenian people. They will rationalize their position by saying that it is time to move on.
An outright acknowledgment of the genocide by Turkish political leaders is not likely, nor would it be tolerated by the military faction (no matter how the present referendum voting may attempt to weaken their power). Acknowledgment would have severe national economic and political consequences. It could well be the catalyst that effectively restores the military to its classic role as protector of Ataturk’s secular Turkey. There is no realistic scenario with respect to resolving the genocide issue that would benefit the Armenian nation. Once the Turkish people realize the Pandora’s Box of economic and political issues genocide recognition opens, they may be less amenable to “facing their past” and more supportive of their government’s anti-genocide recognition policy. How Prime Minister Erdogan implements the success his Justice and Development Party (AKP) achieved in the recent referendum voting could well determine the potential for the military’s return to power. Neither a secularist government under the military or an Islamist leaning AKP bodes well for genocide recognition or a weakening of Ankara’s support of Azerbaijan.
Contrary to what most believe, Turkish academics/intellectuals, when they speak of the Armenian Genocide, are speaking primarily to the moral-psychological need of the Turkish people to face their past. Facing the past will be a catharsis that frees them from guilt. This is assuming that the average Turkish citizen harbors any feeling of guilt with respect to the genocide. Any Turkish citizen born during the period of the Armenian Genocide would be about 90 years old today. And every one of these same Turkish citizens would have been thoroughly indoctrinated during their years in school studying the government’s interpretation of Turkish history. These academics/intellectuals do not consider restitution and indemnification as part of the need to face the past. Neither do they delve into the injustice created when the Treaty of Lausanne superseded the Treaty of Sevres, which had promised a free and independent Armenia on their historic western provinces in eastern Anatolia. However, the Turkish leadership understands fully that acknowledging the murder of 1.5 million Armenian men, women, and children as genocide is a political and economic minefield through which they fear to tread (see “Why Would Turkey Acknowledge the Armenian Genocide,” the Armenian Weekly, Feb. 10, 2007).
Just recently the Turkish leaders again showed their contempt for the Armenian people when an invitation was extended to the Armenian religious to participate in liturgical services at Akhtamar. For a government that seeks to encourage normalization and to generate favorable publicity, they failed completely. They made a mockery of the invitation to hold liturgical services in the restored edifice that was Sourp Khatch (Holy Cross) Church on Akhtamar Island in Lake Van. The structure that exists today is a Turkish museum in a former consecrated Armenian Church that has been profaned by its new use. When a church is put to a nonreligious use there is a deconsecration service that is performed. If the Turkish political leaders had been sincere when they offered to rehabilitate Sourp Khatch in 2006 , it would have been restored and consecrated the following year as an Armenian church with its cross and not as a Turkish museum. Sourp Khatch should now be blessed during the appropriate consecration ceremony and allowed to be administered by Etchmiazin. Then and only then should religious services be held. Turkey has failed by design to live up to Article 42 of the Treaty of Lausanne which contains a clear-cut statement that “(t)he Turkish government undertakes to grant full protection to the [Armenian] churches…cemeteries, and other religious establishments…”
Both Yerevan and the Armenian proponents of normalization should keep Article 42 in mind as they recall the hundreds of Armenian churches, cemeteries with their khatchkars, monasteries and other religious sites that the Turkish government has destroyed, allowed to fall into dangerous disrepair, vandalized or looted for building material, or used for purposes that desecrate the holy purpose for which the structure was consecrated. Is this the government that can be expected to be a trustworthy neighbor once Armenia is officially bound by the protocols? I don’t believe so.
Michael Mensoian
Latest posts by Michael Mensoian (see all)
- Facing the Reality that is Artsakh - August 6, 2020
- Tourism: An Economic Tide That Can Lift All “Boats” - January 29, 2020
- The Legacy of the Hairenik and the Armenian Weekly - January 7, 2020
The facts are clear: Armenians took up arms agaisnt their own government. After a millennium of harmonious cohabitation, Armenians resorted to revolts, terrorism, and supreme treason, making territorial demands. These are the facts. These facts contracdict with the Armenian narrative, which in turn, creates “cognitive dissonance” in Armenian people. This psychological trauma can be resolved in two ways: accept the facts and change your attitude or simply ignore or dismiss the facts and demonize all dissenters. Most Armenians, unfortunaltely, seem to choose the latter, hence no closure after a century.
Kirlikovali – The facts are clear: All indigenous nations inhabiting Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Middle East that have been enslaved by the Ottomans took arms against the government they never chose to live under. A classical case of national liberation movement and freedom fighting. While movements of other colonized peoples, such as Bulgarians and Serbs, were much more tidily mobilized and better organized, they nevertheless didn’t suffer the horror of race annihilation in its most barbarous Turkish expression. A few Armenian revolutionaries followed the national liberation euphoria in Europe against the loathed Ottoman regime for the sake of freedom from Turkish shackles. However, it is idiotic to state that “Armenians took up arms against their own government.” All 2 to 2.5 million of Ottoman Armenians did? Women, children, the elders, and even unborn ripped off by the Turks of their mothers’ bellies did? Further, there has never been a “millennium of harmonious cohabitation.” Western Armenian was subjugated into the Ottoman empire during the 16th century AD. It was not Armenians’ voluntary choice. It was a sheer colonization by the newly-emerged nomadic Turks of a civilized nation that lived on their own lands for almost 4000 years. By any means could it be described as “harmonious cohabitation.” How can an indigenous nation “harmoniously cohabitate” under the yoke of an oppressor nation? Armenians were given a humiliating millet status, their basic civil rights violated as a second-class minority that needs to be subservient to a Muslim Turkish majority. Their witness accounts didn’t count in the courts. They had no right or elect or be elected. No right to carry arms. They have been heavily taxed, much more than the Muslims. Even the way they dressed was required to be different from that of the Turks’. In no way their cohabitation was “harmonious” because throughout the Ottoman centuries constant pillages of their villages by the Turkish, Kurdish, and Circassian bands were taking place. Murders, kidnappings, and even the right for the first night for Turks and the Kurds for Armenians newly-weds were not uncommon. Already in 1894-1896, that is before the genocide of 1915, the Ottomans slaughtered up to 300,000 Armenians by the order of Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid. These are the facts. This psychological trauma of a genocide victim can be resolved in ONE way: the denialist Turkish state will accept the guilt of deliberately annihilating the whole race and pay reparations to the victims.
This is a fine article by Mr. Mensoian. It’s loaded with good facts and analyses.
As for the “official” contention by successive Turkish governments and many Turks that Armenians “revolted,” I must say that though that argument is false it is also, in a sense, a welcome one. Why is it welcome?
Because it demonstrates very well the official mindset of Turkey that says that if one “revolts,” even against clear injustice, then Turks have a right to murder you en masse.
The concept of such punishment, revenge, or whatever wishes to call it, is, of course, alien to civilized country and people.
Therefore, the very fact that the “revolt” argument is even made is illustrative of a genocidal mindset. Thus, the Turks prove the factuality of the genocide by the crude manner in which they deny it. I really do welcome that.
@Kirlikovali,automatcally your a branded as one member of the brainwashed of kemalism education system which is much worse than nazism,fascism or communism.All these fell & soon it’s your turn whether you like it or not.History repeats itself.Already we can see cracks in your identity of ‘turkishness’.Alevis are shouting,Kurds are up in arms… you can run but you cannot hide!
How about treating yourself with your own prescription/medication that you are so freely giving away to the survivors of your fathers’ massacres.
Ah yes, the old Turkish premise that all was well and the Ottoman Empire was so great and then the Armenians rose up.
-Turks continually decry the imperialism and empires of others yet defend their own empire as if having an empire and controlling indigenous populations is ever a good thing. The O.E. fell for the same reasons other empires fall, they are corrupt, evil, brutal, and eventually bankrupt the imperial power. Let’s not forget, the English and French kept the O.E. alive for several decades until the Germans stepped in to take over the role. Even though the O.E. signed many reforms, none were ever enacted.
– Armenians became scapegoats for the the shrinking Ottoman Empire and the lives of ordinary Armenians in the interior became filled with terror. Moslem refugees decided they would turn on the local Christian population, the O.E encouraged this. Armenians are blamed and scapegoated for Turkish losses in the Balkans and elsewhere. Their religion made them suspect.
-Armenians did not take up arms against their own government
1. Starting the late 1880’s, small groups of Armenian armed, organized and formed committees in order to protect their communities that were subject to wanton attack and looting by Kurds, Circassians, Tatars and Turks in the east, encouraged by an an increasingly paranoid Sultan Abdul Hamid. Are you going to defend his record? The O.E. authorities would not defend the Christian population from attack. Again, very few Armenians joined these committees, but all Armenians were targeted. If an Armenian village was attacked by marauders and the Armenians defended themselves, the Armenians were treated like criminals.
2. Being considered “dhimmi” in a islamic culture, that some (albeit a small minority) of Armenians had the audacity to defend themselves from attack made the Turks decide they had carte blanche to destroy the Armenians (as well as Assyrians, Pontic Greeks, and Nestorians). To even suggest that Armenians had the same rights as Moslems is a downright falsehood. Armenians were treated as third-class citizens in their own land. Some Armenians achieved success in spite of Turkish brutality and this is yet another reason why they were despised.
3. Armenians supported the CUP until the CUP turned its back on the Armenian populations during the Adana massacres of 1909. Furthermore, Armenians were in a no-win situation, the CUP leadership itself, despite overtures of brotherhood, despised the fact that they were helped by Armenians to gain overthrow of the Abdul Hamid.
Your logic is full of hyperbole at best and falsehood at worst.
If we look at the situation of Jews in Germany up to the early 1930s. They were well integrated, hardly noticeable as a distinct minority, highly educated, well-positioned within industry, medicine, education and the arts. Indeed their contribution to society brought many, many benefits Along comes WW1, defeat, the disintegration of the German Empire,economic collapse, perhaps the disintegration of Germany as a state, remember how relatively recent the German state is, even now. Germany was falling apart with mutinies in the armed forces, starvation in the streets and political extremists on every corner.
The German power brokers needed scapegoats, a target, to focus the nation, to draw the German people together. Who to target? The easiest, a group united by a religion not practised (although tolerated) by Germans. The German latent hatred of Auslanders was uncapped and Pandora’s Box was opened.
Mid-19th Century, ottoman empire, “the sick man of Europe”, defeat, disintegration of the empire, possible breakdown of Anatolia into nation-states, economic collapse.
Armenians were the easiest target. Integrated? Yes, partially and really dependent upon location, ie Constantinople. Tolerated? Barely, discrimination written into ottoman law.
Every nation has it’s own “target” nation, it may only manifest itself in the form of humour..”heard the one about the Polack? etc”. To turn the dial to “Hatred” is but a tweak of the controls. Inherent in the sub-conscious of every nation is tribal survival.
Does this excuse the turks ? Never, never, never.
Civilised modern states have more control, their populations more educated et al than ever before.
Why then do many turks, regardless of which flag is over their head, continue to exhibit the desire to revel in and repeat ,if given the chance, actions from their disgusting past ?
If a few Armenian revolutionaries “took up” arms against the colonizer Ottoman government, why weren’t those few individuals arrested and tried? Why 1,5 mln innocent people were slaughtered in the most barbarian Turkish way and a million of others forcibly deported or fled?
How do we deny the Armenian Genocide that happened in 1915?
1. Question and minimize the statistics.
By claiming that the numbers are exaggerated or inflated, and that only a few hundred thousand were killed, not over a million, they try to completely side-track the entire issue. As if a few hundred thousand would not have been a genocide as well.
2. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers.
The claim that Armenians cannot be trusted because they may want reparations is like saying no victim should ever be heard, because they are biased in their pursuit of justice.
3. Claim that the deaths were inadvertent.
As a result of famine, migration, or disease, not because of willful murder. Also mention that Turks/Muslims died too at that time – without mentioning that they died on the battlefield, not at the hands of their very own government.
4. Emphasize the strangeness of the victims.
The victims were infidels (Christians), a fifth-column, and not “good” Ottoman Turks.
5. Rationalize the deaths as the result of tribal conflict, coming to the victims out of the inevitability of their history of relationships.
Armenians and Turks could not share that land anymore since some Armenians might prefer independence to being second class citizens.
6. Blame “out of control” forces for committing the killings.
They often blame the very Kurds they later struggled to keep down.
7. Avoid antagonizing the genocidists, who might walk out of “the peace process.”
Turkey refuses to even open diplomatic relations with Armenia because it talks about the Armenian Genocide.
8. Justify denial in favor of current economic interests.
Turkey’s number one weapon in denying the Armenian Genocide. Constant threats to the west the military contracts worth billions will be canceled have worked wonders in legislatures considering the issue. In fact, the debate over whether to officially recognize the genocide in the west is clearly not about whether it happened or not – since it very clearly did – but on just what economic/diplomatic repercussions Turkey has threatened or might retaliate with if they do recognize a 90 year old truth.
9. Claim that the victims are receiving good treatment, while baldly denying the charges of genocide outright.
Show how a few thousand Armenians were not killed in Istanbul as evidence that 2.5 million were not killed/driven out in Anatolia.
10. Claim that what is going on doesn’t fit the definition of genocide. At the time of writing (September 2004), the European Union, the Secretary General of the United Nations and even Amnesty International still avoid calling the crimes in Darfur by their proper name. There are three reasons for such reluctance.
11. Blame the victims.
The most insulting tactic of all. Saying that actually it was the Armenians who were massacring and wiping out Turks.
12. Say that peace and reconciliation are more important that blaming people for genocide.
This is often heard from Turks, American government officials and others who have clearly never been victims of genocide. Much like telling a man whose mother was raped and murdered by the next door neighbor that it is more important to get along with your neighbors, this will never be accepted by Armenians who deserve and need an apology and reparations.
Barev Armenians. My name is Lars and I’m from Oslo. I am working on genocide recognition for Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontus Greeks. The article below is a good one I recommend highly:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/armromgen.htm
Kirlikovali, is clearly ill-informed if he thinks the facts are clear. He can’t legitimately claim that Armenians as a whole took up arms against their government (O.E.). Rebel bands did rise up to protect their villages and/or pursue national independence, but they were a handful from among an entire population and can hardly justify the deportation and massacre, confiscation of property and destruction of a 3-4 thousand year Armenian presence on those lands. As David Boyajian states, Turkey is simply admitting to a mentality that permits extreme punishment of entire ethnic groups for the rebelliousness of a few from among the group. Very telling comment.
As for “cognitive dissonance”, Kirlikovali should examine his government’s own inability to honestly examine its dark history, intolerance of ethnic minorities and archaic laws forbidding denigration of ‘turkishness.’ And what about the P.R. stunt that they tried in Akhtamar? Mass held at Holy Cross Church (without a cross!), in a desecrated sanctuary turned into a restored museum hardly represents coming to terms with the truth of a nation’s responsibility to its ethnic minorities.
Mr. Kirlikovali, your nation must face the facts and make proper reparations to Armenians. You are in a state of confusion. No one is safe in Turkey as long as Turkey thinks it can get away with murder.
Barev to Lars! Your support for our cause is most welcome. Your countryman Ragnar Naess is a frequent contributor to these pages but seems quite unclear regarding the role of the Ittihadists in the genocide.
I recommend to everyone to stop living in the past – and try to make the best of the opportunities in front of them to find peaceful solutions. A lot of radicals on this issue both on the Turkish and Armenian side need to first come from a point of understanding and compassion – otherwise – the issue will unfortunately never be resolved. Which is probably what these radicals want in the first place
Who did not revolt against the Turkish Ottoman Sultanate?
Glad to read that the Armenian revolted as well! Why shouldn’t they have revolted? After all, the Greeks revolted against the Turkish Ottoman Sultanate. So did the Bulgarians and Romanians; as well as the Serbians and Croatians revolted against the Turkish Ottoman Sultanate. Also, the Arabs in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Palestine all revolted against the oppressive Turkish Ottoman Sultanate. And, even the Young Turks revolted against their own Turkish Ottoman Sultan and toppled it. So, why shouldn’t have the Armenians revolt against the brutal and oppressive Turkish Ottoman Sultanate?
In fact, Turks living in the Russian Empire revolted against the Russian Empire and sided with the Turkish Ottoman sultanate.
Kirlikovali,
Did you say a millennia of harmonious cohabitatiion? It was harmonious cohabitation if you consider conquering another people’s land (without provocation), enslaving the natives, destroying their churches and public buildings, overtaxing them, considering them to have no rights in law, pillaging, killiing, injuring, raping countless Armenians (in pre-1895 years) and making them live in terror–not for decades as Jews did under Nazi Germany, but for more than 500 years. Some harmonious cohabitation, indeed.
You write that Armenians revolted against the Ottoman state. Revolt is the right word, but in a different context, as in the “the revolting Ottoman missrule.”
WHEN IS TURKEY going to return our land over to us, did they ever say, since they are so concerned with Karbagh.
Velkommen, Lars! I look forward to interesting discussions with you.
JakeInLA – How? How should Armenians stop living in the past if the past is not recognized by the Turks and being continuously distorted and their crime denied? “Find peaceful solutions” is the most evasive phrase that’s used by the third parties to a conflict. Had you been a party to a conflict, it’d be very painful for you to hear “find peaceful solutions.”How? If a murderer doesn’t repent for the crime, how do you stop demanding and find peaceful solutions? How can a victim find a peaceful solution with an unrepentant murderer, anyway? Why do you call upon the victim to be understanding and compassionate? Understanding and compassionate of what? Of the fact that all Turkish governments starting 1915 have denied their crime, desecrated our cultural heritage, hamper efforts at international recognition of the genocide, buy and pay for disreputable scholars to distort the truth about genocide? The peaceful solution can be found only when we know that Turks repented. This is not happening.
Jake in LA… you say
I recommend to everyone to stop living in the past – and try to make the best of the opportunities in front of them to find peaceful solutions.
ARE YOU FOR REAL??? you are telling people who lost an entire nation to barbaric Turks in cold blood without any apology and repayment to forget what happened? ARE YOU OK???? are you even an Armenian? … Just curious. because once I know that piece of information, i would know how to respond..
Thank you sir
Gayane
Dear Lars.
Thank you so very much for your support… I will be sharing the article you shared with us with all of my friends..
As Boyajian said and I agree with her 100% that your countryman Ragnar Naess who is clueless about what truly happened and tries to convince us otherwise definintely sheds a negative light on matters, but I am glad you are not part of that propaganda…and your contributions are most welcomed.
Gayane
Mr. Kirlikovali has learned a new word. That word is “narrative.”
For those of you who don’t know, Mr. Kirlikovali is an elderly southern California gentleman with a deep hatred of Armenians, those living in 1915, and those living today. This is not just my conclusion. Over the past two years, he has stated, inter alia, that:
Armenians likely killed Hrant Dink [Turkish Digest column, January 17, 2007, the day Dink was assassinated];
“I have lived in Southern California long enough to see how incredible hateful most Diaspora Armenains truly are. These are the people who have never met a Turk in their lives but [are-sic] quite ready to kill one on sight” [column from “History of Truth”, August 1, 2008];
The Genocide of Armenians reminds him of a joke he knows about the death of a fly [Pasadena Star News post in November, 2008 concerning a candidate he was promoting to run against Adam Schiff];
Armenians are too duplicitous to serve in the American military [tell Marine legend Victor “transport” Maghakian, Navy Cross, Makin Island and Saipan; USMC; Ernest der Vishian, Congressional Medal of Honor, Anzio; USA; Harry Kizirian, Navy Cross, Okinawa, USMC and scores of other Armenian Americans who have served right up through today].
Mr. Kirlikovali speaks such poison not just for himself, but also on behalf of the Assembly of Turkish American Associations [ATAA] of which he is the President Elect. They elected him, and they ratified his Nazi views.
Joseph jan..
BRAVO.. absolutely excellent comments.. especially the one on how to Deny the Armenian Genocide.. Thank you for breaking it down … I hope that your detail description of why a denialist country continue to deny is very clear now to many who are still in denial like Kirlikovali (God could not pick an easier name to type), his friends Murat and Robert and Ragnar Naess who is a Norwegian actually and not a Turk… but then again he might as well be…
Boyajian jan, Vtiger jan and David B jan.. as always great comments…
Gayane
CORRECTION; not “scores”, but scores of thousands of Armenian Americans have served in the Unites States military through the present.
and what government did the armenians revolt against??? ohh you mean the osmanian criminal syndicate pretending to be patriotic, much similar to the ruling class in turkey today, if i and the rest of world history recalls correctly, you the turks, were in the forefront of the rebellion then, and now, the victim of misinformation and false indoctrination by your ministry of education…zavale…
if so didn’t all the subjects of the empire revolted, from north africa to judea to arabia to the balkans, did everybody get their lands back except the armenians????YES, everybody except the armenians…
so what is your arguments based on???? your turkish government is still occupying the armenian lands and retaining the properties seized during the forced deportations, and this you cannot deny, the whole world watched and documented the crimes…and today western armenia (what your gevour government calles easter turkey) is devoid of its indigenous people, the armenians (an armenia without armenians)
and now you want to erase your past and join the civilized society once again, well that’s very noble, just so you know, membership has a very high initiation cost, hope you have the funds available, either you pay up voluntarily or a barrage of collection agencies will hound you down to the point of madness until you pay back, (with principle plus interests plus penalties plus court costs) all the while ruining your credit for at least 7-10 years, with a big smile on their face of course, and a polite demeanor…
and if you are familiar with the credit business in america you’ll know what i am talking about,
so enjoy, your national tsunami is in the process, get ready to embrace its devastating effects,
you brainwashed stupid mule, get your facts right, before you make an ass of yourself with your erroneous public declarations, otherwise the only thing you’ll achieve is self humiliation, something the denialist sector of your society have become very good at, in the past 95 years…regarding “1915” what you might remember as the armenian revolt and for the rest of the well informed world, as the first genocide of the 20th century perpetrated by the turkish government against the armenian people, may this fact haunt you in you nightmares, corrode your happiness, and destroy whatever brings you joy for the rest of your miserable life until you repent and beg the armenias for forgiveness,
you cursed bastard
get off my lands if you are a turk, return my properties and consider your self a great person…gule,gule
and what opportunities might you be talking about??? everything your government offers ensures the dependence of my people on your geographic dominance, that is not a ground for peace
hei lars,
i consider you a world hero, to stand up for the truth, it is people like you who should win the nobel prize instead of the corrupt criminals that have been bestowed by that honor
i wish for you all the sucess, and don’t hessitate to contact any one of us, for we are all but too eager to help
Takk skal du ha god norweigan folk, lenge leve freindship mellom vår fred kjærlig mennesker
It’s easy for outsiders, who are not effected by the Turkish brutality against Armeanians, to be so oh so wise, peace-loving, ‘impartial’ and advice-giving.
It’s so easy for nations, which are sovereign over their whole national territory (United States, Britain, etc.) and which have not suffered almost-annihilation by a blood-thirsty nation, to give advice that we should forget what Turkey perpetrated.
These people remind me of the dunderhead British officer who, long ago, advised Palestinians and Jews to “behave like good Christians” and resolve their differences. In addition to being an absurd statement, it was a callous disregard to the historic facts: Britain caused the Palestinian vs Jewish problem through the Balfour Declaration. In the case of Armenians, the British made lots of noise in their Parliament that something should be done to stop the Turkish massacres of Armenians, but when Armenians faced
extinction, a British PM blythly said that British ships can’t climb Mount Ararat. Now people of that ilk are telling us to forget that almost 90% of historic Armenia is occupied by Turkey, that 1.5 million Armenians were slain by Turkey, that the rest of Armenians living under Turkish occupation were driven to exile to the four corners of the globe.
If these people imagine that we will ever forget what Turkey did and that we will stop our struggle to demand justice then these same people believe that pigs can fly.
Bari Louys and thank you everyone…but then again, no need to thank me. I work on the side of justice which is what people are supposed to do. I will be around from time to time and share research.
My dearest compatriots,
I have a suggestion or rather a demand to make… You should also read & comment on articles,editorials published in Turkish newspapers similar to Hurriyet or Daily Zaman,which are quite interesting.There are a bunch of us but we’re not enough.Your different points of views,sources,ideas are so varied & different from each other.This variety is a must & should be commented/published in the Turkish newspapers.Eventually this is direct communication between us & the Turks,which covers a 95 years gap.
Hayrenaser,Gayane,Joseph & all the rest of my compatriots,
Vakh eserem,vay yes tser tsave danem,yegek tser djagade hampourem.
Sorry Lars that these emotions can only be expressed in Armenian…soul to soul…crying heart to crying heart…
Lars – I believe we should thank you, because your compatriot under the name of Ragnar Naess posting on these pages also claims that he “works on the side of justice,” but many of his comments are heavily influenced by Turkish clichés, such as this one: “there were genocidal consequences, but no genocidal intent [on part of Ottoman government].” We thank you while keeping in our hearts the gratitude for the commendable humanitarian work for Armenian relief that had been done by your great compatriots Fridtjof Nansen and Bodil Catharina Biorn. It is people like you who think that “being on the side of justice is what people are supposed to do” that make the difference.
Vtiger.. you are sooooo right in stating that we should all move forward commenting on Turkish forums.. I for one am willing to do so..do me a favor please my friend.. if you do read or go on the Turkish forum to comment, send everyone the link so that we can log in and contribute.. but I will do my part and try to research and put in my part on these forums…
Thank you for your kind words… right back at you..:)
Hayrenasi jan.. you spoke the words from my heart.. qefs ekav..shat mersi..
Someone should tell Kirlikovali to shut his poisoneous mouth…
Gayane
I agree that we should keep an eye on Today’s Zaman, Hurriet, etc. We have to know what Turkish politicians, intellectuals, journalists, the ruling classes are thinking. This is important because it gives us an idea about the mood, attitudes, assumptons, designs… of the players in Turkey. It’s also important to follow the goings-on in Turkey since Ankara not only follows Armenian websites, chat groups but it also has a squad of people whose job is to spout Turkish propaganda to Armenian and odar media, sometimes under false names.
Agree. I have posted at Hurriyet and Todayszaman. Some of my posts have been approved some have not but the posters are generally very fascist Turks and you get a good sense of Turkish mindset and discourse. Hurriyet is right leaning and heavily Kemalist/CHP. Todayszaman is tied to the AKP and only slightly more liberal.
Thank You Dr. Mensoian, for Your precise psychosocial analysis of the politics of genocidal mind, i. e., of Turkish mentality. I compared all 5 points of the United Nations 1948 Genocide Convention that specifies genocide as one of the following: “1. Killing members of the group; 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”
I have come to the understanding that contemporary Armenian ELITE has been exercising Genocide since October 27, 1999 upon the population of Republic of Armenia, when eight True and Brave Armenians were killed in the Armenian Parliament. Simultaneously, measures were imposed to prevent any free idea in Republic of Armenia and that situation continues up to now. Hundreds were destructed and tens were killed on March 1, 2008, because they were brave enough to declare the fact that 2008 Presidential elections in the Republic of Armenia were rigged. The Group of Armenians that were under destruction in those day and remain under destruction now are those who tried to explain (see the difference, contemporary Armenians did not revolt) the Government that population of Armenia is dissatisfied with the Parliament’s and President’s social, economic, and foreign policies. In fact, not one but four out of five points specifying Genocide refers to Armenian Genocidal situation, today. Ohan Duryan, the Great Armenian musician, seeing the corruption of serjkocharyan authorities of today, shouted out: “You, corrupt bastards, do not have any right to talk about Genocide.” Compare Duryan with another great Armenian musician Gomitas of 1915!
Dr. Mensoian, enemies are outside and traitors are inside. Mr. Sarksyan’s, the Armenia illegal President’s dream was almost coming true — Mr. Gul, the Turkish President could brotherly and legally solve the problem of Nagorno-Karabakh!
As corrupt and ineffective as the current Armenian administration might be ( BTW, Sargisyan is a joke), Ter Petrossian and his cronies have no room to talk. The crimes of the current admin pale in comparison to what he and he thugs did.
What’s the use in writing here?
You censored my comments three times already.
Have it youre way…
Believe what ytou want…
This matter is not that important in the Turkish-American realm, anyway.
Listen to yourselves and be happy!
Kirlikovali
Be happy that with such Anti-Armenian and Genocidal views you are only being blocked and not thrown out of here.. Such ignorance!!!!!!!!!!!…
How old are you? How can you allow such filth come out of your brain into your keystrokes when you write about Armenians? Don’t you have consience? Don’t you have moral and humane sense?? don’t you know that one day you will face GOD and instead of going to heaven you might pack your bags and be greeted by the Devil???… I don’t appreciate the way you view Armenians and their just Cause.. Shame on you..
That is all i have to say to you sir..
Puhleeze! Mr. Kirlikovali, me thinks thou dost feign disinterest to conceal thy frustration with debate.
Don’t be a quitter. If you have something besides denial and distortion to add to the dialogue please speak up…
Dear Gayane,
As long as Turkish political friend, USA, is hiding the guilt of Genocide from Turkey, there will be always room for people such as Kirlikovali to maneuver, hide, or justify, for the murdering of Armenians and other Christian subjects of Ottoman Turkey.. and at the end, they will be rewarded, comforted, and blessed by their superior fanatic code “301”. People like Kirlikovali will push Turks back into Ottomans’ dark period, or end up a civil war with liberal Turks..
Of course Kirlikovali is only tough when he talks to his Turkish friends.. there is nothing he can hide when he is talking to a society of brainwashed and ignorant people.. of course he will have plenty to say then..
But when it comes to actually facing those people who he trashed in his article, suddenly he is out of words.. or words are not enought anymore..
What a coward step to take……
Welcome Lars,
In Norway the main problem is that people really do not care about the Armenian cause and the Norwegian Armenian association as far as I know, have decided that they do not want to raise the issue. So all new voices from Norway are welcome to my mind
Kirklikovali’s comments should be published here however extreme they are & they should not be blocked unless they are offensive to religion or full of insults,etc…We live in democracy unlike Turkey with articles 301 & others…Anyway they will be repetitive unless a new fabrication comes out.
Comparing the 2 above published comments of Kirlikoval’s,do you notice how different they are in composition?I bet the 1st one is written by a native American & the 2nd one by him…
For the last 2 days I’ve been posting article sites of Hurriyet that need to be commented by us & I’ve just noticed that Armenian Weekly has not published them & this is completely unacceptable for the reasons of my above paragraph one.I wonder why & an explanation is needed by the editors.
Kilikovali should have know better than anyone by now that one can not fight myths by facts and reason, there is a reason why we call them myths. What happens when a myth becomes the core of your national identity? You defend it to your last drop rather than face reality.
Mr.Kirlikovali,
Once we want to debate the issue, I agree that censorship should not be tolerated. I also agree that there is a case for holding that Armenian political and military activity in 1914-15 was not purely defensive but aiming at rebellion to assist the Russian army. The extensive material published first by Gürün, then expanded and better contextualized by Justin McCarthy et al indicate this and I never saw any really thorough answer by historians that it was not so. Even Ter Minassian in her article “Van, 1915” mention the “slashing of telegraph lines” as part of Armenian activities, something that can hardly be termed purely defensive. But then there is also the question of the legitimacy of a rebellion.
I want to point to the fact that a clear majority of the contemporary observes, if I am not mistaken, held that the deportations, or relocation, was a cloak for extermination. Further that the majority of relevant historians today hold the same view, even if there are nuances. I believe that this warrants a more detailed statement than the one you gave.
I have three questions that to my mind deal with facts that can be taken as arguments that there was indeed a program of extermination, or genocidal intent, on the part of the leading ittihadist echelons in 1915-18.
First the fact that evidently Armenians who did not rebel were deported, and also from regions where they hardly could present any threat militarily at all. One example is the Antalya area with less than a thousand Armenians. You seem to present rebellion as the main factor but how do you interpret the deportation from Antalya or Eskisehir with extremely few Armenians, to take another example?
Secondly, you are probably acquainted with the writings of Fuat Dündar. I do not have in mind his latest book, but an earlier article in which he points to inconsistencies in the ittihadist politics towards Armenians. There was an explicit policy of settling Armenians in Zor, Syria and Mosul so that their share of the local population should not exceed certain percentages. Then he points to the fact that the some 500.000 surviving Armenian deportees in Syria in 1916 never could be settled according to this formula because their number greatly exceeded the required share. The ittihadists were meticoulous about their statistics, he says, and asks: “What was to become of those who exceeded this ratio? Taner Akcam interprets this discrepancy as due to an implicit policy of “massacring the Armenians down to one tenth”. But how do you interpret it?
Thirdly, we know that Gürün held that more than one thousand persons were tried and punished by the ittihadists for “atrocities against deportees”. In a debate between Akcam and Halacoglu some years ago Akcam pointed to some specific verdicts mentioned by Halacoglu in a recent article and said that these verdicts did not concern atrocities, but unlawful appropriation of Armenian property. Which is quite something else. And to my mind Halacoglu never answered…. A genocide scholar I know has been through the some 90 pages containing the relevant verdicts in the period 1915-18 and affirms that NOBODY was persecuted for atrocities against Armenian deportees, except a few cases in Syria. This happened at a time when there were numerous reports about massacres on Armenian deportees. How do you interpret this? However you interpret it, doesn’t this prove a clear ittihadist responsibility for the huge Armenian mortality? If you let people massacre with impunity, what does this tell about the mindset of the ruling party ay the time?
Murat
if one cannot fight myths by reason and you hold Armenians to be myth makers, why are you here?
Kirlikovali, or is it Kirli-kovali, most properly named.
I guess no different than the reason you are here Ragnar, and by now I am sure you know what it means to confront mythology with logic, facts and reason. Regardless, facts do need and deserve a champion too. Besides, unchallenged, myth-makers tend to build up more myth on top of more myth.
I agree with VTiger regarding Kirlikovali’s comments.
Murat, facts and reason are always welcome in this discussion. Please feel free to make a constructive contribution to this dialogue.
Ragnar, writes: “I also agree that there is a case for holding that Armenian political and military activity in 1914-15 was not purely defensive but aiming at rebellion to assist the Russian army.”
Armenians acknowledge this rebellious element. Even so, the rebellions were carried out by a small minority and did not warrant the deportation and massacre of an entire ethnic group and could have been handled by the arrest and imprisonment of those inciting rebellion. A pan-turanic hysteria was at the root of the ethnic cleansing of Armenians and CUP conveniently pointed to this rebellious element to justify its eliminationist fever. Pockets of rebellion cannot be used to defend the Ittihadists policies nor should it be pointed to today by Turks hoping to avoid admitting to the crime of ethnic cleansing committed by their ancestors. Further, the events of 1915 were preceded by other massacres, and therefore should be viewed in the context of a growing anti-Armenian/scape-goating in Ottoman society, not as isolated events.
If I was a Turk, I would not want to believe it either. But the results speak for themselves.
Boyajian – I agree there was a rebellious element, but we should explain to the Turks that this element wasn’t sitting on the clouds all by itself by 1915. It was a culmination of a centuries-long oppression of Armenians as millet, constant pillages and murders committed by Muslim bands in the Armenian villages, the 1894-1896 massacres of up to 300,000 Armenians by Bloody sultan Abdul Hamid and the 1909 Adana massacres by the CUP. It should also be explained that the rebellions element was present in all other parts of the empire who wanted to throw off the yoke of loathed Ottoman regime. However none of other nations that made a part of the empire was subjected to total annihilation. I’d also be cautious to name the few cases of Armenian resistance as “rebellions” in the classical sense of the word. None of those resistance cases (Zeitoun or Van) was targeted at toppling the constitutional order. None of them aimed at unseating the central or provincial government. The prevailing majority of historians agree on that. In essence, they were acts of self-defense against brutality and oppression of the Ottoman government. In contrast to Armenians, other nations‘ acts in the Balkans and the Middle East were much more organized, heavily armed by foreign forces, and carefully mobilized. However, Armenians were chosen as scapegoats and massacred in the most barbarous Turkish forms.
Arm-K, I agree completely with your expansion of my comment. I would add that rebellious elements were responding to the Hamidian massacres, the Adana massacres and the betrayal by the CUP which went back on its promise of more autonomy and equal rights for Armenians.
Ragnar,
Once more you display naivete as to Mr. Kirlikovali, President Elect of the ATAA.
Apparently you have no idea that he is a propagandist for the Turkish Nazi cause, which he serves as the proprietor of various denialist websites and pe of the ATAA.
Apparently you forgot my earlier post that, among other things, he said Armenians likely killed Hrant Dink, that the average Armenian can neither serve honorably in the military, nor express much other than homicidal lust for random Turks, and that the Genocide reminds him of a joke about a dead fly.
If you wish to debate him, and not denounce him, go ahead, but its like trying to persuade Goebels and Rosenberg that their criticisms of Jews and Romas are not entirely correct.
Your statements about the listserve are wrong. You were broadly denounced for trying the same BS there you pull here. I recall no defenders. You are a lay person when it comes to the Genocide. But I will grant you: you are supreme when it comes to how to order off a Latin menu. Maybe you know how to order at the Vatican City Starbucks.
Mr. Naess – You forget that Armenian political and “military” (if we may say so) activity in 1914-15 that, as you claim, “aimed at rebellion to assist the Russian army” had its deeper roots in earlier massacres of Armenians in 1909 by Ittihadists and in 1894-96 mass murders by Abdul Hamid. You forget that “slashing of telegraph lines” in Van cannot constitute a “rebellion” by any definition. “Slashing of telegraph lines” cannot possibly be considered as a method at changing the state order or unseating a government by violent means as is typically done during rebellions. You also forget that resistance (more proper word than “rebellion”) in Van occurred almost two weeks AFTER the Turks commenced the state policy of forced expulsions and massacres of Armenians in Zeitoun and other Cilician towns. How does this relate to the “assistance to the Russian army”? You also forget that first cases of mass deportations and massacres of Armenians in Zeitoun and surrounding towns and villages took place in a city that by any rate was even close to the frontlines or war zones where the Russian army might be advancing. So, maybe at the time there already was a decision of inner circles of the CUP aimed at Ottomanization of the empire and treating non-Turkic minorities by means of arms?
Folks, as I mentioned in an earlier post, who did not revolt against the Ottoman Empire? Even the Young Turks revolted!
I suggest not to get hung up over the revolt issue; all the Arab nationalities revolted against the Turkish rule, all Serbs and Slavic nationalities revolted, so did the Greeks, and the rest of Balkans. One more thing, the proper characterization of that rule is the Ottoman Sultanate, not “Empire”.
I made three questions to Mr. Kirlikovali, since we are here to debate. The aim was for him to answer what I think are arguments for the existance of genocidal intent. The rebellion or not rebellion is a side issue. The questions posed by fuat dundar and the fact of the impunity of those who perpetrated massacres are more relevant to the question of genocide. I’d like to hear him answer, whatever his credentials….we are here to debate arent we, not to be swamped in diagnoses of the participants…?
murat
the difference between us seems to be that you talk as if dialogue is impossible (“reason looses against Armenian myth makers”) but still – inconsistently – participate in dialogue whereas I believe in dialogue, and consistently engage in dialogue.
Murat,
I’ll explain to you the difference between fact & myth:
That you as Murat exists is a fact, but you Murat as your father’s son is a myth.
Ragnar.. all your questions could have been directed to this Kirko vo whatever his name is on his article… not here.. and diagnoses is necessary.. did not you say diagnosis is very important when you are researching a subject? so yes.. we will diagnose your comments because your comments does not reflect the accurate data.. most of the time…but since you have asked Kirko lov whatever his name is, lets see if he has the balls to reply..
Murat– you must have been hybernating ..and just woke up to greet us with a stupid comment..according to you Armenians are myth seekers or myth lovers??? are you out of your brainwashed mind? if we are myths, why don’t you grace us with your facts.. you have not said one constructive comment since you popped in our pages.. i am sure you have facts jammed down your pocket so why don’t you share them with us..go ahead….. make sure you site sources.. and give specific examples…
Arm-K, JDA excellent comments…
Boyajian… nice work
Vtiger– thank you for posting the Turkish links.. please try again and hopefully it will come through…
Gayane
Dearest Gayane,This is the response of the editors:
Dear VTiger,We do not allow commenters to constantly post unrelated links from other websites in the comments section. You made it clear to the readers that you want them to comment on Turkish sites. The rest is up to them.Thank you for your consideration and for being part of our online community.Regards,AW Moderators
& my response:
Dear Editor,
Thank you for your explanation.Gayane asked for the Turkish site links… plus we are mainly exchanging comments in between ourselves where more than 99% of commentators are Armenians,which at the end of the day does not achieve much for our cause & target.
Personally I believe that you should encourage more Turks to get involved in such debates with your online community & to achieve this target you have to encourage more Armenians to debate on Turkish sites.
Regards,
VTiger
Dear Editor,
I have to agree with Vtiger.. If some and if not most are not familiar with these Turkish sites and one of our commentators is, then I believe it is best to share it with the rest of us.. we are all communicate here on AW and that is the only way we can have exposure to other sites which we need to be encouraged to go and comment.. by having a discussion with the Turks on Turkish sites will advance our Cause and it will allow some of us who do not know of these sites to be exposed to it.
I don’t see any problem of including a link that will take us to these Turkish site…
But then again, i don’t know the laws and i would not want to get anyone in trouble if siting links will cause an issue…I personally would encourage the sharing of these sites but then again, i am just me..
Vtiger… please send me all links to gvoskani@yahoo.com
Anyone else that would like to send me an e-mail you can send it to the above..
THank you
Gayane