Mouradian: Turkish Officials to Attend Genocide Commemorations?
By Khatchig Mouradian // Posted on February 8, 2011 in Opinion // 331 Comments // 
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When it comes to making grand statements, leave it to the Turkish government.
According to a report by the newspaper Sabah, Ankara announced this week that it will be taking part in April 24th commemorations this year in an effort to overcome psychological barriers between Armenia and Turkey, and engage in dialogue with the Armenian Diaspora.
If you are asking why a government that spends millions of dollars and goes out on a limb in denying the Armenian Genocide would take part in events commemorating it, look at the calendar.
It’s that time of the year again.
As April 24th approaches, Ankara is anxious to guarantee that President Obama, in his annual “Armenian Remembrance Day” statement, will not refer to the destruction of the Armenians in Ottoman Turkey in 1915 as “genocide.”
Washington, in turn, would like to present excuses that justify Obama’s decision to break his campaign promise to properly recognize the genocide.
During the past two years, Obama justified his decision by referring to “the efforts by Turkey and Armenia to normalize their bilateral relations.” Now that the Turkey-Armenia “normalization” process has been stalled—by the Turkish Grand National Assembly’s failure to ratify the Turkish-Armenian protocols—Washington needs a fresh excuse.
And Ankara feels the pressure to provide one.
Hence the Turkish government’s announcement, which promises to take up a line or two in the “I salute,” “I commend,” and “I support” section of Obama’s Remembrance Day statement.
On the other hand, the Turkish government will not have sacrificed much. An official’s visit to the Armenian Genocide Memorial in Yerevan, for example, does not mean the visitor’s country acknowledges the Armenian Genocide. The U.S. ambassador to Armenia and even U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton herself have visited the site, although the U.S. maintains a policy of not reaffirming the genocide.
I doubt, however, that the Turkish government will send officials to lay wreaths at Armenian Genocide memorials. The ruling Justice and Development (AK) Party is locked in a struggle for votes, and the pressure from its rank and file and competing parties might force it to abandon the plan.
Instead of insulting the memory of genocide survivors and selling it to the world as progress, the Turkish government can perhaps begin with removing genocide denial material from its websites. The Turkish Foreign Ministry’s page, for example, features a “Q&A” section denying the genocide and stressing that “Turkey is the only country, where the events of 1915 can be discussed in a free manner.” (I kid you not.)
Ankara’s annual “let’s pretend to be busy doing something constructive” festival is in full swing already. Stay tuned!
Related Articles:
Mouradian: Despite Obstacles, Armenian Genocide Commemorations Held in Turkey
Sassounian: Turkish Officials Admit to Playing Games with Protocols
Mouradian: Meeting with Turkish President Gul: Dispatches from Turkey (Part III)
Mouradian to Speak at Rutgers on ‘Genocide in Modern Turkish Consciousness’
Boyajian – “I asked you twice why Turks don’t just admit and apologize”. I had already answered this before. The simple answer is because there’s no prevailing sentiment of guilt in the country. The complicated answer is understanding the origin of this sentiment. Turkey went through an emotional catharsis arising from its own war of independence and national liberation, purging any guilt or responsibility for its acts and misdeeds. Sadly it still hasn’t overcome its own trauma and suspicions to recognize the suffering of the ‘other’ being Armenians and other Christian minorities. This as some may call the ‘Sevres mentality’ coupled with the adversarial political/legal nature of the ongoing worldwide campaign has lead to a defensive reflex to the point being at times plain irrational but other times necessary for legal self interest. That’s why I say the humanitarian aspect of this issue needs to be predominant driver to make inroads with the general population. I offer you my opinion, talk to someone like a politician or a prosecutor and that will go straight to their head, talk as a friend and that will go straight to their heart.
Karekin wants Armenians to be more solicitous of Turks to ‘ease’ them into admission and apology.
Karo asserts that we must keep the pressure up in order to ‘force’ Turkey to face the truth.
Zeki warns against a hardline approach which ‘only encourages Turks into a defensive posture’.
Diran avoids the rhetoric and whittles down the issue to an ‘international crime not yet paid for’.
Gayane doesn’t hide her frustration, doesn’t care what others think, and calls it as she sees it.
Turkey, no longer able to deny what happened, suggests both sides suffered ‘a great catastrophe,’ and hopes to avoid guilt by substituting the concept of mutual suffering.
Obama caves.
Armenians want justice, economic prosperity, and peace with their neighbors, but not at the risk of more loss.
Erdogan orders the razing of the statue of Turkish and Armenian friendship.
Ancient churches crumble and bones in the desert turn to dust…
Karo, You made excellent points above again. It’s exactly how I think, as if you speak my mind and soul.
Diran, About Karekin, It is what I also think about him. Remember, Turks unlike Armenians are very devious politicians. We need to be careful. Again, they are the ultimate politicians with real politik behaviours and attitudes; but the majority for 95 years have been schooled by their governments that a Genocide of Armenians is non existent, but the Armenians deceived them…. bla… bla… bla… and you and I know their stories made up with lies so that they’ll throw off their dirty clothe on the saintly martyrs of the Armenian Genocide who were atrociously and barbarically killed by their Ittihadist CUP government of Turkey of 1915.
Gayane jan, If Karekin was at all a man enough, much before now he should have apologyzed to all of us for his sorry behaviour and un-Armenian thoughts and outbursts.
My concern is and always has been that too many in the Armenian community are always in battle mode, but worse….always fighting multiple battles on multiple fronts and never winning any of them. Any amateur historian knows very well that such strategy and tactics have caused many mighty empires and military machines to fall. Where does the fighting end? How does anyone know if/when we’ve won? Let’s look at all the different battles that seem to be constantly being waged: 1915 & genocide recognition; Turkey; Karabagh, assimilation, minority rights, Armenian language preservation, historic preservation, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Old City Jerusalem, genocide museum, insurance companies, press freedom in Armenia, corruption in Armenia, etc, etc. etc. And then, Armenians see fit to battle each other on petty issues, that amount to attempts at thought control. We are a very small community…yet can be very pugnacious towards others and ourselves. Maybe it’s time to develop a clear focus instead of sending people in all different directions and on overlapping issues.This reduces the effectiveness of each individual message. Issues are resolved by compromise and cooperation – yes, from all sides – Turks included. As it is often said, a tree that does not bend in the wind will not last the storm. Think about it. That’s all…think about it. Unless of course, you prefer a status quo of endless battles that exhaust everyone and do not move things forward in a positive way. Even though most Armenians on this forum apparently see compromise as a sign of weakness and reject it out of hand, it really is the only way to advance anything to the next level.
Listen, Karekin – I don’t want anyone, especially you, to do anything for me or others. Whether or not you committed a crime, that’s not anyone’s business here. But knowingly insulting other people’s faith relics is a misdemeanor, and several people in other threads requested that you apologize for it, because you hurt their religious feelings. It is certainly not polite, but outrightly blasphemous, to call Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ “some carpenter with his magic tricks” and the Word of God, the Holy Bible, a “book of stories and parables.” When you spew out this blasphemy, don’t you think you may attack faithful people by it? Imagine what hysteria you’d whip up if any Armenian Christian here descended so low as to call Prophet Mohammed “some merchant with his magic trick of touring heaven and hell on his horse Burak”? Or that Holy Koran is not a revelation from God to Mohammed through angel Gabriel, but a “compilation of fairy tales”? Won’t it be viewed as disrespect and misdemeanor for which an offender would need to apologize?
Interesting:
YouTube – Israel: Defying all odds
Karekin, what should this compromise encompass?
Zeki – It is understandable to some extent that there’s no prevailing sentiment of guilt in the country. After all, Armenians couldn’t expect much from a society that’s been brainwashed for decades. But I have to ask the simple question for the third time: because you advocate moral side of the genocide recognition as opposed to political/legal side, can you personally admit and apologize for the crimes of your Ittihadist grandparents, as a moral gesture? After all, you seem to understand where Armenians and the international community are coming from on the issue of genocide. Can you do this on personal level even if there is no prevailing sentiment of guilt in the country?
Yes, Boyajian, well said. Turkey’s game is to convert the most serious crime in international law into a palatable, cost-free Mutual Catastrophe and sail with flying colors into the European Union.
“Even though most Armenians on this forum apparently see compromise as a sign of weakness and reject it out of hand, it really is the only way to advance anything to the next level”, writes incorrigible Karekin.
Definition of “compromise” from Oxford Dictionary: “Compromise is an agreement or settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.” Armenians are not involved in a dispute. Turks want us to do so. Armenians are involved in a case of receiving justice for them. In fact, Armenians denounce any attempt to engage themselves in a dispute over an internationally accepted and historically documented fact of genocide. Secondly, there can be no dispute between the victim and the murderer. Armenians and Turks were not two warring sides in WWI, nor were they two antagonistic social strata to a civil war to develop a compromise. Armenians were victims and Ottoman Turks were their mass murderers. The only agreement or settlement in similar cases is recognition of crime by the murderer, apology to the victim and reparations for the victim’s losses. Thirdly, Armenians don’t suffer from the guilt complex as Turks do in order to make inroads to a compromise: we did not annihilate and forcibly deport 2 mln ethnic Turks, did not steal two-thirds of their historical homeland in the Altay mountains, and do not portray Turkish mosques and Muslim tombs as Armenian Christian churches and cross-stones, or transform them to “museums” or sheepfolds.
Boyajian: A minor alteration. I don’t rule out steps at rapprochement IF they are earnest and don’t serve Turkey’s negationist policies or attempts to evade justice for Armenians. But in the background the pressure needs to be kept up. Otherwise, the issue can be lulled, as Diran correctly warns, to a “common catastrophe that had befallen both Armenians and Turks.”
Karekin wants Armenians to be more solicitous of Turks to ‘ease’ them into admission and apology.
Karo asserts that we must keep the pressure up in order to ‘force’ Turkey to face the truth.
Zeki warns against a hardline approach which ‘only encourages Turks into a defensive posture’.
Diran avoids the rhetoric and whittles down the issue to an ‘international crime not yet paid for’.
Gayane doesn’t hide her frustration, doesn’t care what others think, and calls it as she sees it.”
And what does Boyajian want?
Boyajian…there are many, many ways in which a win-win outcome can develop, if responsible people on both sides work hard to reach a compromise. Everybody wants something. What do we have to give that they want but doesn’t cost us something, and gets us what we want/need in return? Make a list, weigh the options. Put them on the table, Do a mix & match and find a way. This is in Armenia’s long term interest. Remember, despite all it has, there are still things that Turkey needs and wants from the world and from Armenia, that we can give. Sometimes these things can be symbolic or diplomatic gestures, but carry a lot of weight. So, as an example, maybe Armenia offers Turkey support for joining the EU in exchange for genocide and Karabagh recognition? It may be pie in the sky, but who knows? A little good will can often go a long way. The point is, it can be done and be done to Armenia’s benefit. Ask for something, but put something on the table at the same time. When you ask but don’t give, at least in the world of realpolitik, you often don’t get. However, where there’s a will, there’s a way.
karekin here is the thing.. WE ARE NOT ASKING… WE ARE DEMANDING..you know the difference? We are done asking you understand? We have done nothing but be polite and passive about this and look what happened for the last 90 years or so.. NOTHING.. NOTHING on the TURKISH SIDE.. NADA, ZILCH, ZERO… you think by as being nice and passive and ask instead of demand will get us anywhere? NOT ANYMORE.. so instead of making this process, this compromise as more like Armenians give in to get something, try to make it TURKISH GOVT GIVE IT UP AND ADMIT ALREADY.. we are not here to stroke their ego anymore for murdering a nation.. are you out of your mind?????… enough is enough……
Well said Karo jan.. apres…
Boyajian.. as always.. right on…
Seervart jan– gitem …:) I agree with you…
The idea of “common catastrophe that had befallen both Armenians and Turks.” is an appeal to compromise where it means “we’ll meet you halfway, we’ll agree to a catastrophe if you don’t use the word genocide”.
I’m guessing a cleansing of the Turkish archives has already happened, at least to some degree, in preparation of the historical commission that was part of the signed accords. Turkey insisted on the commission as part of the accords. Given the Turkish governments active resistance to recognition, I suspect a plan or even a trap on their side. Any sort of commission should not be in such governmental accords since the outcome can be tied or pressured politically. Border openings and diplomatic ties could be tied to the outcome of the commission and thus the border issue becomes economic pressure against genocide recognition.
Commissions and dialogues should happen organically between Armenians and Turks (academics and NGOs) without governmental mandates. I am assuming, probably naively, that the latter is a more honest way to go about this.
Karekin, I agree with you in theory, but what concrete real world suggestions do you have for things Armenia can offer? They have taken so much already. You want us to compromise the little we have left. We can offer to back off the hardline on genocide recognition and accept the concept of mutual suffering instead. That would make them happy, but that is compromising the truth. They may have suffered but we didn’t create the situation that brought them pain.
Karo, since you asked…I’m an idealist. I want Turkey to admit to genocide, make reparations, return Ararat, Kars and Van for starters, open a passage at Trebizond, and back out of the Armenia-Azeri issue in NK. I want my relatives in Haiastan to know peace and prosperity. I want my people to create and innovate in all the arts and sciences and to take their place among the nations with pride. I want the truth to be known by all and recorded in history without dispute as a reminder to all nations that genocide has no statute of limitations and will not go unpunished. I want Armenia and Turkey to put the past behind them and move forward as cooperative neighbors who respect each others sovereignty. I want Turkey to abolish Article 301. I want Turkey to establish a day to recognize Hrant Dink’s martyrdom as a heroic act that changed their nation for the better. I want to look forward to a day when I can hear the name “Turkey” and not feel that familiar pain…
After considerable research and computer analysis, I discovered some little known historical information that may give an indication as to how modern Turks and the Non-Ottoman State of Turkey will develop their relations with Armenia in the future.
——-
About 20 years ago, there was a splendid little war between Armenians of Artsakh (a.k.a Nagorno-Karabagh Autonomous SSR) and Azeri Tatars of Azerbaijan SSR: some of you may have heard of it.
Here is a quick synopsis of the events:
- 1988: Armenians in Stepanakert and Yerevan peacefully – repeat PEACEFULLY – protest and petition the Soviet authorities to approve the legal separation of Nagorno-Karabagh ASSR from Azerbaijan SSR. In response, Azeri Tatars massacre defenseless Armenian civilians in Sumgait and Baku.
- The State of Azerbaijan starts military operations against Artsakh’s Armenian population with the stated intention of exterminating and ethnically cleansing Artsakh of its indigenous Armenian population.
- Despite appeals from ‘World Community’ for ‘calm’ and ‘negotiations’, Armenians arm themselves and start defending their homes and families.
- The war seesaws: Armenians win a round; Azeri Tatars win the next round. Armenians are on the ropes, facing massive defeat.
- This is where things take an unexpected turn for the Armenians: what Turkey does next stuns Armenians worldwide.
- Wracked by remorse and feelings of shame and guilt for having committed a Genocide against Armenians in 1915, and to atone, in part, for the crime of AG, Turkish leadership takes the following actions:
Turkish Special Forces, disguised as irregular Grey Wolves volunteers, land in Baku and convince Azeri leadership that they are there to fight alongside their Turkic brethren. However, following orders of their superiors in Ankara, they attack and destroy Azeri military installations in Baku. Their heroic deeds allow Armenian troops to chalk up victories on the battlefield.
Turkish Military starts sending massive amounts of military matteriel to Armenia.
NATO trained Turkish officers arrive in Stepanakert to assist Armenians: their knowledge of Azeri’s military doctrine is invaluable and helps Armenians win many critical battles.
In 1993, with the enthusiastic support of the Armenian Government, Turkey sends a whole Army thru the South of Armenia towards the border of Azerbaijan: the massed might of the Turkish army threatening Baku finally convinces President Haydar Aliev to sue for peace.
Turkey works tirelessly at the UN to compel Azerbaijan to recognize the independence of the new Republic of Artsakh.
Turkey gifts 100s of millions of dollars for the reconstruction of Artsakh, and pledge billions more to Armenia.
Returning Turkish troops march triumphantly thru Yerevan’s Freedom Square on their way to the airport: the road to the airport is lined on both sides with throngs of smiling Armenians of all ages, throwing red carnations at the brotherly Turkish troops.
——–
Of course what actually happened was the exact opposite.
The State of Turkey did everything possible, short of actually invading RoA, to assist their Azeri Tatar cousins in their failed attempt to exterminate another 200,000 Armenians. Turkish transport planes even violated Southern Armenia’s airspace several times on their way to Azerbaijan.
This was not 95 years ago: this was not Ottoman Turkey.
This was only 20 years ago: this was modern, contemporary Turkey that many (erroneously) believe has nothing but good intentions towards Armenia and Armenians.
NOTE: Turkey massed a whole army on the border of RoA in 1993, when Azeris were on the ropes and facing massive defeat at the hands of Artsakh’s Armenians Warriors.
Only reason their invasion plans were thwarted was that the Russian General Staff faxed some pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (as they appeared in August 1945) to PM Tansu Çiller. Shortly thereafter, she wisely ordered the Turk troops back into their barracks.
Q.E.D.
Genocide recognition is not a political issue per se to belong to the world of Realpolitik. It is essentially a legal issue. An international crime has been committed, for which the victim demands recognition, apology, and reparations from the legal successor of the murderer-state. It has become a politicized issue because of the Turkish denial, but is essentially not a political one. Therefore, “win-win outcomes” typical for political issues are irrelevant in our case. The largely political term “compromise” is irrelevant as well (see: my explanation in an earlier post). Again, parties to the genocide recognition are not former (or present) parties to a war or a civil strife to work out a “compromise” or be able to “ask for something, but put something on the table at the same time”, as some here suggest. “Everybody wants something” is somewhat derogatory phrase for us, because belonging in the realm of politics, not legal demands, the phrase essentially juxtaposes the positions of a victim and a murderer. In other words, Armenians’ demand for justice is put on the same scale as the denial of it that Turks advance in order to get away with the crime against humanity. I strongly doubt that Jews were ever led by the realization of a political notion “everybody wants something” while advancing their case. As for Armenia offering Turkey support for joining the EU in exchange for genocide and Artsakh recognition, Armenia is too minor a player to be able to do that. It can certainly influence EU decisions on the issue of Turkey’s admission, but, obviously, cannot make decisions for the whole body. Besides, this condition is just one out of many that the EU has imposed on Turkey; it’s by no means the remaining one out of the deck of requirements that Turkey has so far failed to honor. It’s still an enigma, as Boyajian rightly said, as to what is it that Armenia, having experienced the loss of the Homeland, the massive loss of life, transfer of other two territories of Nakhichevan and Artsakh to another sort of Turks to the east, land-locked, its nation dispersed all over the world, and still demanding justice for all these crimes, has to “put on the table.” What else??
Avery – In addendum: “Turkey must show its teeth to Armenia… What harm would it do if a few bombs were dropped on the Armenian side by Turkish troops holding maneuvers on the border?… Armenians have not learned the lessons of 1915. [read: genocide by Ottoman Turks – K.]” – Late president Turgut Ozal of Turkey discussing the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh in April 1993.
It was just 18 years ago…
I am in. you got my vote.
“The classical Ottoman policy in response to international pressures was to promise the Great Powers speedy reform to improve the condition of Ottoman Christians, and to subsequently prevaricate or do nothing, when the international pressure subsided.” – “Crime of Numbers: The Role of Statistics in the Armenian Question (1878-1918)”, 2010, by Fuat Dündar.
Has anything changed in modern Turkish policy? I wonder…
Thanks for the addendum Karo: I had forgotten about that one: in my database now.
I believe Karekin called manooshag a ‘racist’ for using the phrase “A Turk is a Turk is a Turk”.
If the above Ozal statement doesn’t prove manooshag’s point, what does ?
I stand with manooshag: “A Turk is a Turk is a Turk” (Leadership, not every normal, ordinary Turk).
If that makes me a bigot, then I wear the badge with pride. As long as the Ittihadists/Bozkurt Turkish leadership makes threats against my people, and presents an existential threat to Armenia – then I shall remain a proud bigot and racist, as far as the Fascist leadership of Turkey is concerned.
For a bunch of people who are supposedly so damn good in business (which by the way, ALWAYS requires some degree of compromise, negotiation and working at a win-win outcome), we seem to have quite a few in our community who are also just plain lousy at it. I don’t care what kind of human interaction you are involved in, taking the stance of ‘we demand this and we demand that’ is almost guaranteed to not achieve whatever the goal might be, because it does not satisfy the psychological needs on both sides of the equation. If you don’t understand that, you’ve never engaged in any kind of business transaction and apparently have no understanding of how to go about it. You also have no clue as to how to achieve our goals, no matter how lofty, just and moral they might be…the world does not respond to ‘demands’, because demanding anything is the realm of a child, not a thinking adult. Someone shows up at your front door and demands that you open it…demands, demands, demands…because you supposedly have something inside that they want. Well…of course, they could have called the police or a lawyer, but instead, you, as the assaulted homeowner, call the police and have the demander dragged away…because no matter how just the demand, he is seen as a nutcase who cannot be reasoned with. If this lesson is not clear to you, then you are hopeless and might as well go scream your demands at a tree or a rock, because you will get the same result. Soghomon Tehlirian and others got justice not just for themselves, for the entire Armenian nation by eliminating the perpetrators. They were exonerated. Many of the CUP leaders were hanged for their crimes. As a result, the world has moved on. You were not alive then, so you are attempting to re-live that time, over and over again, rather than move on into the future. My grandparents who lost all who came before them were able to move on 90 years ago…why can’t you? We have an Armenia that is in desperate straights. We need to secure it and reunite it with Karabagh. That should be your focus, not an event that you cannot change the outcome of. It happened. It was horrible beyond words. Yes, there needs to be an apology, but come on people….let’s attend to the real needs of those living in Armenia, because you cannot bring back the dead, no matter what you say or do.
Here we go again Karekin. Whether your grandparents and parents and yourself has moved on is not the issue here for heaven’s sake. Surely even you must understand that the first Genocide of the 20th century must be first, recognized by the guilty country, apologies be made and reparations be made to the heirs of the martyrs as in this case the Turks came charging in from Mongolia, have killed the people who lived in Western Armenia for thousands and thousands of years, owned their lands and country, demolished Monasteries, artifacts, Churches to say to the world that Armenians never lived in their for thousands of years. Then they are denial for almost 96 years; as denial is the last phase of the Genocide. Thus the Armenian Genocide is still ongoing; it hasen’t ended yet. If we move on without asking and demanding for a recognition, an apology and reperations, then we the murderer nation is allowing to the world the wrong ethics and the wrong mores. We shall give the whole world the WRONG MESSAGE. That it is alright to annihilate a whole nation, commit a Genocide and then not ask the murderer country to be responsible for it. We as Armenians will allow the world to be belligerent, to be bad, to be murderers and it is OK, unless we demand the wrong to be right, then we as Armenians have a responsibilty to be good role models and set the records and the matters right!!!!!
I have obviously made a mistake above as I should have said, “WE THE NATION THAT HAVE BEEN MURDERED”.
Again I say to Karekin, that we Armenians have to set the records right by demanding Turkey, the murderer country who annihilated more than a million and a half Armenians in 1915 then took over our lands, to set their records right. For TURKEY TO RECOGNIZE THEIR KILLINGS TO THE ARMENIANS, TO APOLOGIZE TO THE ARMENIANS AND THEN TO PAY REPARATIONS TO THE ARMENIANS. We must show to the world that killing of a nation is never permissible and gone UNPUNISHED. We have this responsibility as Armenians and as good people to do this for the sake of the human kind. For the sake of humanity!
Let’s not forget that the world is watching us and taking it all in. The world must know that the good must reign and the bad must not have free reign. We owe this to all the nations of the world and to all the people of the world. Thus the good behaviours must win but the bad behaviours of people and of nations must NEVER win. That’s why we have a responsiblity to have Turkey to set her records RIGHT!
Karekin… AGAIN.. we ARE DEMANDING an apology and will not ask.. WE ARE NOT GIVING ANYTHING TO GAIN ANYTHING FROM the murderer… read my comment above for the explanation…..THIS IS NOT A BUSINESS TRANSACTION.. I repeat NOT A BUSINESS TRANSACTION… in a made belief and perfect world world your way of doing things may have worked.. but we are not dealing in an ideal situation, we are not dealing with a party that was equally intentionally murdered and destroyed, we are not dealing with a govt who wants to make things right and admit their crimes.. WE ARE NOT SELLING ANYTHING TO TURKS and WE ARE NOT BUYING ANY CRAP FROM TURKS… You may want to see this transaction as business transaction but I do not…
As a result, the world has moved on. You were not alive then, so you are attempting to re-live that time, over and over again, rather than move on into the future.
THE WORLD DID NOT MOVE ON… NOT THE WORLD I KNOW.. NOT THE ARMENIANS’s WORLD… This issue IS AS IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT to me and i am sure many here as well as working on building and keeping our motherland well and strong… GOD i want to slap you out of your poooch state of mind cause I am getting really annoyed by your comments…you are like a broken radio.. PLEASE CHANGE YOUR CHANNEL FOR GOD’s SAKE…
Apres Seervart jan.. well said…
Gayane
Gayane jan, I wish Karo to say the same thing that he said about you, that Seervart doesn’t hide her frustration, doesn’t care what others think and says it as she sees it fit. I wouldn’t mind to be like you my dear.
You said it perfectly Gayane jan. How true that this is not a perfect world when the murderer doesn’t feel guilty and doesn’t want to admit her killings and her guilt and denies it for a century. There could NOT be a business transaction because this is not a case for business or a case of having been on the same level; because we Armenians had no choice in the matter when we (our martyrs) were living as citizens of Turkey in a peaceful manner – working hard, paying enormous amount of taxes and constantly living in fear -. There was no normalcy or being at the same level; but a case of a murder of a nation, the Armenian nation. We MUST continue to fight for Turkey to accept their responsbility; for the sake of the Armenians, for the sake of the Turkish nation and for the sake of mankind!
Karekin – All that you’ve mumbled would be true if it applied to a business or any other ordinary human interaction, not to a crime against humanity. No one disagrees that a human interaction requires some degree of compromise, negotiation and working at a win-win outcome. But being held accountable for a murder is not a human interaction in the sense that it’s not a regular business transaction. When you commit a murder and the police come after you, the cops don’t work out a compromise with you, they don’t engage themselves in negotiations with you, and certainly don’t work at a “win-win” outcome. Then, at the court of law, people stand against the criminal and DEMAND justice. It is obscure to say that the world has moved on after the Armenian genocide. In what sense? How far did it moved? If the world moved on, how come genocides, the ugliest of human crimes, still happen, the most recent one being in Darfur? You know why? Because the first genocide of the 20th century still awaits its recognition. That your grandparents were able to move on 90 years ago doesn’t mean that the prevailing majority of the Armenians worldwide must—or can—do the same. You have a serious psychological problem of seeing things through your narrow worldview. It’s called self-centeredness and such a mindset is too narrow to be an intellectual challenge. You’ve been told, perhaps dozens of times, that it’s obvious that Armenians cannot change the outcome of genocide, but Armenians can—and must—work to receive recognition and justice. This doesn’t exclude working for the betterment of Armenia. In fact, the two are parts of the same national Cause.
Hye, over time I have observed that a Karekin inevitably takes the opposing positions – of whatever. Sour grapes. Manooshag
So, whatever a turkey next ‘releases’ – just another of their leaderships ongoing/unending PLOYs… distractions, deceits,lies and more. Leaderships of a turkey is full of these. Manooshag
That’s exactly it Manooshag,
Turkey’s Leadership is = Deceit, Lies, Ploys, Distractions and the likes. You summed it up just right.
Seervart jan… yes haskanum em qez u urax em vor du el es haskanum inch em asum… u r a smart lady…love you for it..:)
Karo jan— it is like we read each other’s mind because we both stated the obvious.. the business transaction matter….i guess great minds think alike..:). but you sir are a genious and i will never be of equal to your intelligence and knowledge..thank you for everything…
………our interaction should not, will not and is not a business transaction.. there is no win win here… murderer needs to get over it, stand up and confess… AFTER THAT, we can talk about everything else… until that happens, FORGET about compromise, win win situation, give me this and i will give you that.. NO WAY..
God Bless
KAREKIN !!!!
YOU ARE 100% correct,if your formulae is w/rgd to business,Oil ,big oil transactions,compromise on an agreement regarding slight border corrections etc., etc.
But when it comes TO MURDER OF A NATION,HOLD IT THERE!!! YOU ARE 200% WRONG!!!
We have fought for Justice and will carry on until it is applied to us.NO NOT JUST FOR GENOCIDE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND APOLOGIES,but FOR RESTITUTION/reparations…for our grandparents ..first of all MONEY FOR THEIR BLOOD-THIS HAS PRECEDENT AND HOW!!!!!! then also later on we shall press for properties,riches,businesses ,stores, churches,monasteries etc. that they destroyed and confiscated. Their well being today is based on our fathers,grandfathers , grandmothers riches,properties .How can you say what you have above…please try to comprehend.It is not that difficult.Also read some books on the Armenian Qjuestion, like Akabi Nasibians´Pro.f Richard G.Hovhannissian´Vahagn Dadrian´s.Why even turks did condemn it in the MILITARY TRIBUNALS the Triumverate and their accomplices, but, then…other elements in their Govt. helped them slip through and escape.BUT THE ARMENIAN AVENGERS SOUGHT THEM OUT OUT ONE BY ONE AND SENT THEM TO H E L L !!!!!
I’m sorry, but if anyone thinks that the refusal to negotiate or compromise is a winning strategy, you need look no further than the map. Of course I understand that the genocide is not a business transaction, that’s a metphorical reference from which you should be able to extrapolate some meaning for today’s predictament, and perhaps a new approach. Sadly, very sadly, but over the centuries, Armenia has been reduced to a postage stamp of its former self. It might sound good to say you will refuse all attempts at a resolution unless it is totally on your terms, but guess what – that does not produce results. Someone here needs to be realistic and resist the temptation of endless fantasy. Justice and morality are not enough to win in this world, whether is it business, politics or anything else. Some people are insinuating that I don’t want Armenians to win…but that’s not the case at all. I’m just suggesting that as of this point in time, a different approach might produce better results than what we have now, particularly since no one seems all that happy about the current state of affairs.
to karekin…. and what might you suggest a different approach should be. it is your mind that is a postage stamp, not great Armenia. you just ramble on with no end in sight.
gerard
It is a waste of time to argue with “Karekin”. He is being taken seriously in this discussion only because he uses an Armenian screen name. Remember, it was he who said, “Armenians have a chip on their shoulder”, then used one of the oldest ethnic stereotypes about the Armenians, that they are ‘good in business’ as a cheap excuse to detract from the campaign for genocide recognition and justice.
In case this individual has descended his marble staircase long enough to listen, I would tell him that the Armenian Genocide was run EXACTLY like a business by Talat Pasha and his gang of criminals. It was a ‘self-financing’ operation on which big bucks were made. That was what it was all about.
Let’s say you have a large, heavy boulder in your yard. You’ve wanted to move it for many years. However, you realize that by yelling at it endlessly, over and over, as you have been, it stays put and doesn’t go anywhere. It is immobile. You keep yelling, you jump up and down, etc, etc, etc. Same thing. At some point, you realize that if you really want the rock to move, you will need to do something more…you reach down and grasp it, you push it. You get actively involved with the rock, and you realize that yes, you can move it in the direction you want it to go if you will actually touch and engage with the rock. Not easy, but it’s possible. You then ask your neighbor for some help and he brings over a large crowbar, and together – with this new leverage, you are able to move the rock that was unmovable for years. After 95 years of yelling at our ‘rock’, it’s time to find a smarter way of moving it. We have plenty of very smart people in our community. Let’s ask them to explore new avenues and create leverage in a new way. If ants can move mountains, so can we if we are willing to actually engage with the mountain. If not, the mountain will remain the same forever.
Exactly, Diran. It was the person named Karekin that somewhere in other threads once said: “You people [meaning us, Armenians] are embarrassments. Nowhere was I treated better than in Turkey…” Which means if his self was treated well by a typical Turkish flattery, than the whole Armenian nation should accommodate to his petty, self-depreciating nature and start trumpeting all over the world that we forget that a whole nation was butchered and the crime is still unrepentant for, and that now, since some of us are being flattered by Turks, we have to “move on” without a mere apology for the Ottoman Turkish barbarism.
Karekin, there is a large boulder in my yard and it is the boulder of Turkey’s denial of the Armenian genocide. I want it out of my yard very badly. It is huge and sits directly in front of my kitchen window blocking the sunshine. I can’t look out into my yard without this rock obstructing my view. It also sits in the spot where I would love to grow a grape vine and build an arbor that would provide shade to enjoy the outdoors in.
As much as it bothers me, I have never once yelled at it or jumped up and down like a child to try to make it move. But I do complain to my neighbors about it and ask for their help in moving it. I make some shish kebab and pilaf and invite them to come over with their pick axes of justice and help me crumble it to pieces. Little by little we are breaking pieces off of it. We have a long way to go, but I can see we are making progress. It gets smaller every day. Before long it will be gone and I will grow my grapes and using my Dad’s recipe, I’ll make some wine to share with them. God bless my Dad. God bless my neighbors. Would you like to come over and help us?
“To serve Armenia is to serve civilization.” – British Prime Minister William Ewart Gladstone
the best way to take care of karekin is not to answer him. no post, no cheese, no mouse.
gerard
Aha Karo jan, Now I understand Karekin’s mentality. Apparently he has been treated very nicely from a few Turks and because of it he wants all of us to forget about pursuing the Armenian Genocide to be accepted and reparations be made by the Turkish government. Well Karekin, just because you’ve been fawned, caressed and flattered by the enemy doesn’t give you the right to address and try to manipulate the more maturer and the more responsible Armenians in here or around the world. If you were a mature, a caring thoughtful individual, you would think through, mull it over and then speak to us more intelligently. You are acting selfishly and your behaviour is reminding of the actions of that Bryza guy who is in Azerbaijan now when he didn’t belong there, because he is biased and pretty much sleeping with the Azeris.
Today, if our martyrs were to be awaken from their sleep, I am 100 percent sure that they would want for justice to be done for their untimely, bloody and unjustly deaths. They would want that Turkey would take responsibility for their crimes and would finally do the right thing by; apologizing and then paying reparations for the blood money that their blood was spared for. Our martyrs would also want this, not just for the Armenians but also for all mankind’s sake.
[...] about this time every year the Turkish government engages in political antics, the purpose of which is to counter any incremental success Armenians have achieved in their quest [...]
Look sireli paregamner…whether you believe it or not, I believe in the Armenian cause and want it to win. I truly do. I want to see Turkey acknowledge the genocide, apologize and yes – offer reparations or restoration of ownership for anything stolen since 1915. Where we differ is on how to get there. So, perhaps we just have to agree to disagree and leave it there. That said, it seems obvious that the current strategy and approach is not working or producing the results we all want. Clearly, none of you are happy with the status quo. At the same time, you also are not happy with anyone who might advocate a different approach that might produce a better outcome. I find that distressing and just a bit odd. It’s like clinging to a sinking ship and not grasping a passing log that might take you to safety. Forgive me, but I have no rational way of explaining that kind of thinking. What are you actually defending here? Failure? Why? It defies comprehension. Hai tahd is a worthy cause, no doubt, but 95 years without success tells me something profound. At the very least, a change in course (and perhaps attitude) is needed because today’s Armenia is at risk. Those in the diaspora have little to lose, but why jeopardize those living in Armenia, Karabagh or in Turkey? As I said, let’s be civil and agree to disagree, our goals are the same, but sometimes unorthodox methods produce better results and need to be tried in order to reach them. Without trying, we will never know.
The different approach that might produce a better outcome that you advocate is to forget and move on. Conventional wisdom suggests that all-national calamities like genocides can hardly be forgotten. As for moving on, it is doable, but only when the murderer-state will admit the crime and offer an apology. Until then, why won’t you try to impact Turks’ views by posting in Turkish online publications? I hope you understand that the primary reason for “95 years without success” is their state’s distortionist and denialist position, not the natural course of advancing justice that Armenians have embarked on. Without trying, you will never know, won’t you?
Karo – Please read my words….No, I’m not advocating that anyone forget and move on, and I’m not sure why you might think that’s what I am suggesting. As I said, if the goals we all agree on are to be reached, because they are worthwhile, historically valid, etc. then there must be better ways of reaching them since after all this time, we’ve not achieved those goals. As it is said, there are many ways to skin a cat, many paths to reach a goal and a hundred ways to cook an egg. Forgetting is not one of those paths and is not an option.
I’m sure many of us have heard or read these words of wisdom:
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
For the record, Karekin, there is much I agree with you on. Of course it makes sense to examine tactics, and try new ones when the old ones aren’t working. No one disagrees with this in theory. But it is your ill-formed assumption that I have problems with.
You assert that Armenians have tried and failed for 95 years to “force” Turkey to accept responsibility for the genocide. Not true. These efforts started after the 1950′s and didn’t really get going until 1970′s. It took the passage of the Genocide Convention and a rather lengthy period of healing and coalescing into diaspora communities for the campaigns for justice to begin. Further, Armenia has only been independent of communism since the 1990′s and since then has been involved in a protracted conflict with Azerbaijan. Its role in the pursuit of justice is still taking shape. This is a fluid process and its progress is not always linear, but has produced a net gain, nonetheless.
Perhaps Hai Tahd is not the failure you claim it to be. Perhaps we don’t need to “change course” but to have more patience and appreciation for small successes along the long road to justice. Perhaps we need to remember that sometimes it is darkest just before the dawn. Perhaps we need to acknowledge that the existence of discourse about the genocide in Turkish society is a direct result of the campaigns for recognition that have forced Turks to contemplate this uncomfortable topic, to uncover the hidden Armenians in their family trees and to question the distorted history they have been taught. Perhaps Hai Tahd is responsible for people like Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akcam, and Hrant Dink and others who courageously put their own safety on the line for the sake of bringing the truth to light. Perhaps the existence of laws like Article 301a should be seen as a sign that Hai Tahd is succeeding and that fear of the inevitable Truth causes the powers that be to try to suppress it. But despite their efforts to suppress, the Truth is being heard and the concept of ‘insulting Turkishness’ is itself being questioned in Turkey. Perhaps we have to believe in the power of good over evil and the concept that some truths are non-negotiable, cannot be ‘compromised’ and cannot be silenced forever.
You speak about unorthodox methods but offer only vague suggestions. You convey disapproval for current Hai Tahd tactics and Armenians who you think are ‘too angry, too demanding,’ but short of “hug a Turk today” you offer no alternative. I am open to hearing all about new tactics and how to implement them. I don’t know what your goal is or if you are covertly trying to derail Hai Tahd as some suggest. I just can’t let your negativity go unchallenged.
“Please read my words….No, I’m not advocating that anyone forget and move on, and I’m not sure why you might think that’s what I am suggesting.” OK, Karekin. Just did so. Here are your words from the March 6, 2011 comment: “…the world has moved on. You [modern-day Armenians] were not alive then, so you are attempting to re-live that time, over and over again [read: not forget], rather than move on into the future. My grandparents who lost all who came before them were able to move on 90 years ago…why can’t you?” What other sense than a suggestion to forget and move on—short of recognition, apology, and retributions—might the readers think you’re making?