Latest:

Astarjian: Our Muslim Brothers

click for more

Even after 65 years I can almost feel it: the backhanded slap my father unleashed on me for expressing an opinion that was as sinful as condoning adultery. It hurt, and I carried its psychological scars until very recently. That was not the norm for my father’s authority; I had the utmost freedom to talk to him and express diverse opinions contrary to his—but not this one. His was constructed by his Armenian nationalistic upbringing tainted with Ottoman norms, which had prevailed in the overall thinking of Cilician Armenians. Mine was not.

My unorthodox expression came at a time when he was talking with his friend Aharone about Christianity, especially the Apostolic Church and Armenian nationalism. For them, the true Armenian was Christian and belonged to none other than the Armenian Apostolic Church. Catholics and Protestants were a sort of Armenians, their ethnicity somewhat diluted by their religious, spiritual allegiance to Rome, and that of Evangelicals to America, not Etchmiadzin. Both sects, in their thinking, were people who had betrayed their Mother Church for money and position, and therefore also their nationality. In a sense, they were ranked as second-class Armenians.

Some 25 years later I heard the echoes of that conversation from Beirut, where Antranig Urfalian had published his memoirs. In it he had quoted my uncle, Dr. Krikor Astarjian, who as a keynote speaker of a graduation ceremony in Nor Marash High School in Beirut, had said, “A real Armenian is Apostolic.” Seated in the front row listening eagerly were Armenian Catholic priests, bishops, and archbishops, Protestant pastors and preachers, who were all guests of their Apostolic counterparts.

“You,” he declared, addressing the front row, “ought to be ashamed of yourselves for being tavanapokh (converts of faith). You have betrayed the Armenian nation by defecting to an alien religion. It is incumbent upon you, if you are true Armenians, to return to the Mother Sea.” A deadly atmosphere, full of emotional diversity and upheaval, had ensued. Urfalian says he remedied the faux-pas by taking control of the microphone and saving the proceedings.

My father and Aharone had some anecdotes to prove their point: In the pre-genocide era, when Armenian fedayees, organized by Armenian Revolutionary Federation, bore arms to defend their villages, their families, and their property, the non-Apostolic Armenian churches erroneously believed that they were exempt from the Ottoman plans and actions against the Armenians, because they enjoyed the protection of America and the Vatican. So, based on this, their support for the fedayees was weak, to say the least.

They were not alone in this delusion. Some Apostolic clergy believed that the cause of the Turkish atrocities had been the Armenian fedayees, who had provoked the government with their armed attacks. Some Apostolic clergy who held this view even turned in some fedayees to the Ottoman authorities in lieu of protection.

All their calculations were wrong. With Ottoman-Turkish planning and implementation, the Turks and the Kurdish tribes committed the Armenian Genocide, and they did not discriminate between Apostolic, Catholic, or Protestant Armenians. They implemented the plan regardless of faith: They were Armenians, and that was enough to be slaughtered.

Today’s argument is an extension of the one that earned me a backhanded slap some six decades ago. The issue is resurrected by the plans to settle a few dozen Muslim-Armenian families in Karabagh; these are the Hamshens of Central Asia. Armenian Muslims! The social impact of this on Karabagh Armenians and, by extension, the rest of the Armenians of the world is speculative. There are over 400,000 Hamshen who live in the Trabzon area and Georgia. This is a sizable population, larger than the population of Artsakh, who speak modified Armenian, consider themselves Armenians, and demand recognition as such. (see Alice Aliye Alt’s Hamshen Armenians in the Mirror of History).

Obviously this new ethnic situation does not sit well with the chauvinist Turkish government who has done everything to evade the mandates of the Lausanne Treaty, to which it is a signatory. They have already denied the Greeks’, Armenians’, Assyrians’, and other minorities’ rights proscribed by this treaty. The Hamshens’ rise in ethnicity awareness is another problem for the Turkish government to deal with.

Recently Ismet Shahin, one prominent Hamshen-Armenian in the Istanbul political world, decided to form a new political party after being ostracized by the Turkish political establishment. Similarly the political establishment denied seven Turkish-Armenian politicians the opportunity to run for parliamentary elections on June 12.

A similar subject begging development is the issue of some 700,000 or more Turkish-Armenians who are descendants of those forcefully converted to Islam during the genocide of 1915. These people should have the full right to openly claim their Armenian ethnic origin, and to choose the religion they wish. It is incumbent upon all Armenian political parties and entities, especially the ARF World Council, which is scheduled to convene shortly, to raise awareness on this vital issue and coin a strategy for action. The church hierarchies of the four major Apostolic Seas have to take the initiative in this matter, and bring their flock home.

This whole problem raises vital questions, which the Armenian intelligentsia has to address with an open mind: Is it mandatory for an Armenian to be a Christian, and an Apostolic at that? Can an ethnic Armenian be a Zoroastrian? Can s/he be a Muslim? Were the pre-Christian Armenian tribes Armenian? Were the Arshagunis, Bagratunis, Artashesians, Tigran the Great, and other Tigrans, Christians? Are Hamshens not Armenian because they are Muslim? Should Hamshens not be wholeheartedly welcomed to our national cradle because they are not Christians? Could we have true brothers who are Muslim? Are they not Armenians because they are not Christians, and Apostolic at that?

These questions earned me a backhanded slap when my father, with Aharone, and later my Uncle Krikor, insisted that Apostolic Christianity defined one’s Armenian-ness and that a true Armenian was Christian Apostolic.

After reading this column, a lot of people will wish that my father was alive now to teach me a lesson. So do I, albeit for different reasons.

396 Comments on Astarjian: Our Muslim Brothers

  1. Is there any signifigant number of Jewish-Armenians today?

  2. @Perouz: Very few Jewish Armenians from history as they almost all assimilated into the Armenian community under Byzantine rule. The Greeks considered the Armenian Church rife with Judaic rituals, ergo Jews felt comfortable there.

  3. So, to be a true Armenian you have to follow a religion that originated from Israel. Oh that makes perfect sense.

    Look at how big Armenia was when it was pagan, and followed its original religion. And look at what has become of Armenia since converting to Christianity. You can’t argue the fact that Christianity has had some role in preserving Armenian identity, I will give it that. But it did nothing to protect us from the genocide, and the theft of our lands.

    To be Armenian is a nationality and an ethnicity. Not a religion. An Armenian who is Islamic, pagan, Zoroastrian, agnostic or atheist is still an Armenian.

  4. In all the countries there are Armenians from their origin who are competely assimilated, they do not feel Armenian , don’t know our language, have not been educated our way. To be Armenian is a question of soul.
    We should not be as Hitler who did not make any difference between Jews even if they were Catholic or another religion, they were all condamned. We should not act like Nazis. Are Armenians those who feel Armenians.

  5. True, Christianity has had a deep impact on what has become to be known as Armenian culture today, just as any other religion plays such a role in the formation and development of the culture of a given nation/country. But, faith is a personal matter and should not be mixed with nationality or ethnicity. Hamshen Armenians, Zoraestrian Armenians or Armenians with no religious conviction at all, all are Armenians.  

  6. We need to also go beyond religion and stop treating those whose names don’t end in ian or yan as odars when they clearly want to be identified as Armenian. If you have one drop of Armenian blood, or are ABC (Armenian By Choice) you are an Armenian. You are also Armenian if you don’t speak Armenian, go to an Armenian Church, eat dolma or sarma. You are Armenian even if you refuse to turn your back on someone whose political beliefs differ from yours. You are also Armenian if all your children have yellow hair and blue eyes, or if your partner is gay and has purple hair. And, guess what? – you are even Armenian if you have no religious beliefs whatsoever! We need to widen our circle and make it more inclusive so we can learn each others songs and dances and stories. I confess to turning my back on the scam-scum  who are willing to rob and cheat and engage in fraudulent, deceitful, criminal activity in order to get money they haven’t worked for from those of us who have. For the rest of you – come, take my hand, I’ll show you how to grow grapes with the most tender of leaves, and here’s what you can do with them…. Now, you tell me what you know….

  7. Hamshen Armenians are just as good as any other armenians,they could even be better.
    Study our history, The Armenian nation went down hill and lost everything from the start
    of the convertion to Christianity.Our clergy were totally ignorant they even sold out our
    fedayes ,took  the guns away from the armenian people they were fooled by the Turks
    and we got massacred.In America we have dozens of religion, is one American less
    American then the other? Albanians have christian Albanians and moslem Albanian,is one
    less Albanian then the other?Armenians always discreminate ,but is one armenian better then  the other?

  8. avatar GARO BORNIAN // June 25, 2011 at 8:47 am // Reply

    I AM ARMENIAN,BEEN BABTISED AND MARRIED IN ARMENIAN APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
    I GO TO CHURCH ONLY IN SOME OCCASIONS,THAT IS ONCE EVERY 3-4 YEARS.
    THAT MEANS THAT I AM NOT A RELIGIOUS PERSON.
    BUT I THINK THAT  I STILL REMAIN A GOOD ARMENIAN,WITHOUT GIVING
    MUCH WEIGHT FOR THE RELIGION.
    THIS IS WHAT I FEEL !!!!! 

  9. avatar gaytzag palandjian // June 25, 2011 at 9:10 am // Reply

    Time to speak up. When in Sept. 3, 1979  we convened  our First  World Armenian Congress in Paris at the plush Nikko Hotel,very well organized  and with delegates  from 23 Armenian community countries. One  of our temporary presiding leaders was a VERABADVELI,well educated  in Switzerland and a stout Armenian.The main driving force,I’ddsay than the other two ,a Prof.   and pres. of the American Univ. of Beirut and other.Anyhow , the local armenian daily”s  chief editor,  I shall not give  names,in an editorial ,then , wrote./ “A Badveli has  come to save  the Armenian namtion”, or to that  effect. Poor  thing, did  not realize  the mistake  that s/he  was making…
    After all,   had  s/he  forgotten  that the main protagonist  of 40 Days  of  Moussa Dagh /who saved 4000  Armenian lives,having organized  the defense  against  ten times  more turkish troops…WAS  A   B A D V E L I……
    The Armenians  need to  redempt  themselves to educate  themselves  a  bit  more..
    Like the only other  such that occurred  quite recently  when.And I am a witness to it./Whne the Khatchkars in Nakhijevan were being destoryed -some 5/6  yrs ago  on Direct  H1  Armenian T.v. a discussion ,rather a dispute  was  on  and suddenly this chap began and I quote.-  “We should stop the OSCE  MINSK  group peace  negotiations with the azeris   at ONCE  NOW,until they stop the destruction, beg  pardon then go back to negotiating…nO ONE LIOSTENED  TO HIM>>
    I’m in Yerevan  a few months later and ask friend who was  that man.Answer  come ,rather mockingly  “He  isa  Marxist”,so what  I retorted, he  may be  Maoist .communist, Dashnag  , hunchag  Njdehagan …but if  what  he says  MAKES  SENSE, we should acccept  his  viewpoint  wholeheardely…
    Alas  the level  of  our  political and or generally, tolerance/respect behaviorial  manners  is far too behind   that  level.Hope  this will teach those  hard  liners a bit  of diplomacy, political understanding  ,as rgds  being an Armenian and in defense  of the MAIN ISSUES.

  10. It’s interesting to note as to what makes an Armenian, Armenian.  Armenians have been non-christians for much longer time, than they have been Christians.  We forget that many Christians were killed by Armenians during the initial resistance, and then many pagans were killed by Christians Armenians during conversion.  It is natural to resist any new change because we want to preserve the heritage, but it is more important (I believe) to be a humane and thinking Armenian, whilst preserving a very old and precious cultural identity that we have inherited, and are responsible for it’s improvement. 
    I don’t place too much importance on religion, as it is an alien influence….people, country, language  and  culture are the main ingredients of a nation.

  11. well said Perouz.

  12. avatar Varaz Syuni (Amsterdam) // June 25, 2011 at 11:18 am // Reply

    First, Sevag- I like the 2nd alinea of your comment: very true.
    Second, this is an important issue, also because now we have independent Armenia/Artsakh. It is time to call the things with their real names. As at some point (a part of) Armenians will need/want to go back. It is natural, normal and necessary.

    And for this we (all together) have to redefine ARMENIANESS and go back to ARMENIANISM: Armenian language, Armenian Gods, Armenian…., etc.

    I did this already and decided to go back to Armenian Gods: I am pagan (more spiritual) and never been christian, baptized and I DO NOT believe in Christ. Of course, at times I go to church and I like/care for Armenian churches too. Why not. But I like ONLY the Armenianness in/of the churches. So, I  refuse to accept foreign elements/God(s).

    My personal view is that for STRATEGIC and state safety reasons it is MUCH better that CHRISTIAN Armenian be ONLY Apostolic or convert to Armenian Apostolisism from other christian denominations and SPECIALLY from christian sects. So better ONLY Apostolic CHRISHTIAN Amenians if they (still) believe in Christ.

    MUSLIM Armenians are Armenians too,  as Hindu, Buddhist Armenians. Of course. And why not?

    But I find that the solution IS/WILL BE to go back to ARMENIANISM and ARMENIAN Gods: We HAVE to go back where we BEGAN. We do not have to force it. Let just begin slow and painless. Let the time do its job.

    PS. I agree with the father of the auther of this artice.

  13. avatar Edward Demian // June 25, 2011 at 2:24 pm // Reply

    The Apostolic church has an advantage of being more numerous than the Catholics, Protestants or the atheists. As a Cilician Armenian, my cultural background is Catholic. I attended the Mechitarian seminary for one year in my early youth as had my father in his. I am a Catholic culturally, but I attend the Orthodox church, served in the church council, and have been active in my community. I make no secret of my Catholic origins. However, faced with recent scientific facts, I have a real problem with the traditional Jewish fairy tales (the bible). However, I still attend and pray because I feel the need, this inner organic primordial need for an all powerful friend. Am I a hypocrite? Yes! But here I am. I speak Western Armenian, not an easy accomplishment considering that my mother was not Armenian. My boys are themselves a product of a mixed marriage, there fore only 1/4 Armenian. However, they shine as Armenians as the others  of pure blood, are indifferent to their legacy. 
    I don’t resent others as they make anti Catholic, Muslim or Protestant comments, I just regard those comments as ignorant and anti Armenian.  Interestingly, I don’t see any anti Communist comments. The Communists, did just as much to dammage Armenian churches as the Turks did. Yet, they are exempted from criticism. Could it be that Armenians view a godless Armenian as superior to a Catholic or Protestant? Help me understand that!!

  14. Perouz: [“You are also Armenian if all your children have yellow hair and blue eyes,”]


    I don’t have the references at the moment, but our original ancestors were described as uniformly light haired (yellow/blond) and blue eyed.
    The famous head-photo of the little Hamshen girl with blue eyes and yellow hair is the look.
    Over the centuries, we mixed with various peoples and lost that look in the majority of our people.
     

  15. You got it wrong. These Catholic and Protestant Armenians were the result of the Millet system in the Ottoman Empire. Armenians were, regardless of their church, one Armenian nation in the empire. This status was not given to any other ethnic group. As a result, many Protestant and Catholic Christians in the Eastern Anatolia were assimilated into Armenian nation. They were not Armenians who became Catholic and Protestant. They were Catholics and Protestants who became Armenian.

  16. avatar Varaz Syuni (Amsterdam) // June 25, 2011 at 8:56 pm // Reply

    Avery – All my ancestors had brown/black hair and brown eyes, as I do and I am VERY proud of it. They all came from the same region, did not mix with others and my family goes back to 1411. I consider myself an (west) Asian and I am proud of this too. Armenians are an (west) Asian folk. We are NOT European. And we need . There are already MANY Europeans.  But only one Armenian volk/peoples.

  17. avatar Varaz Syuni (Amsterdam) // June 25, 2011 at 9:01 pm // Reply

    In my above comment: ‘And we need’  should be ‘And we do not need to’.

  18. Varaz Syuni (Amsterdam):

    Time frame I am referring to is way before 1400: I am no anthropologist , but I don’t see how is it possible to be sure who mixed with whom, say 2,000-4,000 years ago.
     
     
    And I don’t think anyone here claims having brown eyes or brown hair is somehow less valuable than blond hair (I have brown hair).
    My statement was in response to Perouz’s sentence in her post: “… also Armenian if all your children have yellow hair and blue eyes,”
    The implication being that if you have yellow hair and blue eyes, then  we accept you as Armenian (agree of course), but you are not really  ‘natural’  Armenian (my words) {unless I completely misread her}.
     
     
    What  I am saying is that not only is it not unusual, it is believed to have been the norm.
    I believe Հայկ Նահապետ has been described as having curly blond hair and blue eyes. (any Historians in the AW community to verify this ?)
     
     
    Also, I don’t see what’s the problem with mixing with other peoples: obviously the Armenian people came into being ‘Armenian’  from consensual intermixing of various proto-Armenian tribes, same as, for example, Germans came into being ‘German’ from intermixing of various Germanic tribes – right ?
     
     
    And you are absolutely correct: Armenia is on the continent of Asia: we are therefore (West) Asians.
    And I have no desire to be European: there is no doubt in my mind, that our 5,000 year history proves we are people 2nd to none.
    One indicator of our superiority as people: even at our most powerful during the reign of Tigran the Great, we did not massacre the weaker, as many  allegedly ‘superior’ Europeans have done when they had the chance.
     
    And finally: blond hair & blue eyes does not imply European. I have been to France and Italy and haven’t seen many native blonds.
     

  19. Dr. Astarjian….this is an important breath of fresh air. Very refreshing to see new thoughts expressed on new topics. They expand our thinking, our consciousness in a very good way.

  20. “I have a real problem with the traditional Jewish fairy tales (the bible)” —-How can you say this to the Word of God? It’s a blasphemy!

  21. Edward, you claim:  “The Communists did just as much to damage Armenian churches as the Turks did. Yet, they are exempted from criticism.

    The Communists did damage to the churches of ALL those Christian nations that were once part of the Russian Empire: Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Armenians, Georgians, and others. Atheism was a part of their ideology and the damage–that no one justifies or stops to criticize—was done as a repercussion of such an ideology, NOT as part of a deliberate, targeted annihilation of a religious, racial, ethnic, and national group as in the case of Turkish genocide of Armenians. Yes, in both cases churches were damaged, but I think you’re smart enough to understand that the motives for destruction were divergently different. In one case it was ideology, in the other – genocidal extermination of race and its religious/cultural legacy in Asia Minor.
     
    Besides, the Commies did damage to churches, but remember that under their regime Armenia was not only able to survive complete annihilation by the Turks, but registered highest level of development in such spheres as industry, science and technology, construction, medicine, arts and literature. The Communists barred Armenians and others from religion, private entrepreneurship, basic freedoms as we view them in the West, but they also gave a lot in the spheres I mentioned above. What did Turks give to Armenians except for colonization, oppression, constant pillages of their villages, abductions, unbearable taxes, humiliating millet status, mass murders, and, ultimately, the genocide?

  22. You have been to France and Italy and have not see many native blonds ?
    Then you have not been in all places of these countries.
    I know many blonds, man and woman, first of all, my husband and his mother who were native blonds, one of my children was too, his godfather who was Italian was blond, and I have many French friends who are blonds. And there is an expression in French : “Blond Venitien”
    Blond from Venise (Italy) My husband and his family had live in France since very very long times, they did not come from another country.

  23. well said Ani re Communists & Armenia.

  24. Avery and Varaz Syuni,

    My research has shown that originaly people from ARmenian highland were 2/3 black hair/brown eyes and 1/3 blue eyes/blond hair.  I beleive the difference is caused by the amount of certain elements found in our bodies.  Historians and antropologists in Armenia believe Hayk Nahapet had dark curly hair. 

    re. And I have no desire to be European: there is no doubt in my mind, that our 5,000 year history proves we are people 2nd to none

    Consider 40,000 (forthy thousand) year old history.

  25. “re. And I have no desire to be European: there is no doubt in my mind, that our 5,000 year history proves we are people 2nd to none”

    This is good…The best Armenian i like most  is  Captain Christopher Pike who saved humanity.

  26. You made a slight mistake Necati.


    Gene Rodenberry in his original idea of the Star Trek had Captain James Tiberius Kirk as an Armenian, based on his knowledge of Armenians as creative, highly intelligent, peaceful people with a 5,000 year history. Rodenberry knew that at their most powerful – during Tigranes the Great’s reign – they treated those whom  they had defeated with mercy and compassion: his name was James Tiberius Kirkorian.
     
     
    However, the famous Armenian-American Billionaire Kirk Kirkorian had threatened to sue the studio – he did not want people to confuse him with a SciFi character: bad for business. So the studio shortened it to ‘Kirk’.
     
     
    And of course I sympathize with you: if I was the progeny of Nomadic horsemen with no culture of their own – Seljuk Turks – who can trace their history to no more than about 1,500 years back, and who have a well deserved reputation for invading, destroying, burning, looting, mass-raping, mass-murdering, stealing,….,basically having been a blight on Humanity  – I’d feel envious and green with rage too.
    The destructive Seljuk gene is so strong in Turks, that even after centuries of forcible theft of refined, cultured genes of Armenians, Greek, and others, it still manifests itself in Turks who have lived in Europe for decades.
     
    ….read these and take pride in your Seljuk Turk roots, Necati:
    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,14921342,00.html
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,549489,00.html
     

  27. Louise,

    Of course, there are many French and Italians who are natural blonds and have blue eyes. However, the majority of French and the vast majority of Italians are not blond. I have been to both countries many times, in different regions, including Venice, Milan, the Lake district, Torino and the surroundings, as well as the South and Sardinia. There are more blonds in Northern Italy but even there they do not consitute a majority and I was really been paying attention. Italians in the USA are predominantly dark haired and dark eyed and, I believe, there is no hair-color-related self-selection among immigrating Italians. I guess, your husband and his family are in the minority of blond Italians. 

      

  28. Blasphemy?  Come on, what is this?  The middle ages?  Get a grip people!  Armenians abandonned their thousands of years old native religion and adopted a foreign belief system as a political statement, not because they truly believed in it. They knew nothing about it. They were illiterate.  Moreover, they had to be converted by brut force, over many years, to give up the pantheon and fire temples (which survive under many ancient churches, including Etchmiadzin). After subsequent conquests by Arabs, Mongols and Turks, vast portions of the population probably converted out of a practical necessity – life vs death, or to gain status and the promise of a better life that comes with adopting the belief system of the conquerors. This explains why DNA studies have shown that a huge percentage of the population in Turkey (approx. 84.9%), share identical DNA with those who call themselves Armenian. This is always the outcome when a small military force overtakes a majority, sedentary population, and mingles with the locals. After just a few generations, the conquerors become identical with the conquered. Now, things like language, religion and other evidence of culture are like icing on a cake, but the cake (meaning the foundational Armenian), remains in place, hidden perhaps or not fully acknowledged anymore, but still a key part of the historical landscape…like the stones, the rivers and the mountains. 
      

  29. Armenians are adaptable people, able to flexibly synthesize old and new and create a new entity that remains Armenian.  We can be proud of this ability, which surely has contributed to our longevity as a nation, despite efforts to extinguish us.  Armenians can be varied and are not confined by color of hair or eyes or by the prayers they say.  Inclusivity and ‘welcoming’ are part of our best nature and help us to be both Armenian and of the nation of man.

  30. As an aside:  It was a hurtful experience at times, to grow up in an American Armenian community that was comprised mostly of transplants from Lebanon and Syria who looked down at those who weren’t as fluent in the language and culture, and saw themselves as superior Armenians.  At the same time, I have known Armenian clergymen from Armenia, who when asked about the problems of conducting church services in our classical language for Armenians who know little Armenian say, “Let them go to the Catholic church!” (meaning that rather than adapt to the needs of the community, we should simply let them go…)  I recognize the importance of language in the preservation and transmission of culture, but don’t think our scattered nation should treat any of its members as ‘throwaways.’

  31. Avery,

    The victim in second link is not Turk but Kurt (Kurdish). 

    Honor killing happens in  eastern Turkey among Kurts.

    As for every crime , Europan countries think  the guilty is Turk because  they have  the passport of Turkey.

    The crime rate among Turkish society is very low  in deed.

    I think  Turkish government must  add an info to passports  showing  which ethnicity is the holder .

    And look what i found in the first link:  It  proves what i am saying.

    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5067844,00.html

    And I know Ms. Sylvia has a kurdish friend. She can get more info from him/her about honor killing among kurts. 
    

  32. Karekin    —–To call the Holy Bible “traditional Jewish fairy tales” is blasphemy in that it is blasphemous to call holy book of any religion “fairy tales.” This is not a medieval thinking. This is a 21st-century American thinking based on of our fundamental values: religious tolerance, which I think you may be familiar with. How would you feel if any Armenian on these pages called Koran a “compilation of day dreams in a cave”? How, do you think, a Muslim visiting these pages would feel? What would he or she think about Armenians? You get a grip and try your best to mature from an antiChristian Turkophile to a religiously tolerant American.
     
    “Armenians abandoned their thousands of years old native religion and adopted a foreign belief system as a political statement, not because they truly believed in it.”  —-Wrong. Thaddeus and Bartholomew preached Christianity extensively and for a long time in Armenia. Hripsime, Gayane and their companions have spent a long time proselytizing, as well. Gregory the Illuminator spent 13 years in a pit for his beliefs. Therefore, by no means was the adoption of this Faith a “political statement.” And, BTW, by no means is any religion a “belief system.” Faith and spirituality by definition cannot fall under a category of a “belief system.”
     
    “They [Armenians] knew nothing about it [Christianity]. They were illiterate.”   —–What history books are you reading? Are you literate? Before the creation of the Armenian alphabet in the 5th century AD, Greek and Latin were spoken, written, and read in Armenia. It is through these languages the Bible was introduced to Armenians in the 3rd century AD and then translated into Armenian in the 5th century, a translation that 19th-century French linguists coined as “The Queen of Translations.”
     
    “they [Armenians] had to be converted by brute force, over many years, to give up the pantheon and fire temples”  —-Human history knows no easy ways of conversion to true monophysite faith from beliefs in multiple gods, fire, or cows. Armenians were not an exception. Coming of the Son of God helped erase old pagan and Zoroastrian beliefs.
     
    “After subsequent conquests by Arabs, Mongols and Turks, vast portions of the population probably converted [to Christianity] out of a practical necessity– life vs death, or to gain status and the promise of a better life that comes with adopting the belief system of the conquerors.”  —-Absurd. Arabs invaded Armenia in the 9th century AD, Mongols in the 13th century, Seljuk Turks in the 11th. Christianity in Armenia was adopted in 301 AD (4th century AD).

  33. For the most part, we are all free to believe as we so choose and religion is a choice. It is not defined by blood or DNA.  Moreover, no holy book is better or more valid than any other. They are all fables – available for the picking, kind of like apples. I tend to like them all, in their own way. So, pick the one that suits you best, but don’t force any of them on me. I will pick for myself, thank you.

  34. avatar GARO BORNIAN // June 27, 2011 at 1:17 pm // Reply

    I LIKE VERY MUCH THIS ARGUMENT ABOUT WHO IS ARMENIAN.
    AND I AM KEEPING TO READ THE COMMENTS,SOMETHING RARELY I DO.
    ONLY ONE THING I WANT TO REMEMBER,THAT WE HAVE TO BE AS OTHER PEOPLES,
    NOT ALL OF US HAVE A GREAT KNOWLEDE OF THESE ARGUMENTS,SO IN OUR COMMENTS
    WE HAVE TO CONSIDER ALSO THIS IMPORTANT ASPECT, AND MODERATE OUR JUDGEMENT.
    A PERSON CAN CHANGE HIS MIND ON ANYTHIG, AFTER HE IS EDUCATED ON IT.
    I WANT TO SAY A SIMPLE CONCLUSION,
     “WHEN YOU KNOW EVERYTHIG,YOU CAN NOT SAY ANYTHING”. !!!!.
    CONFUSED ??? THINK ABOUT IT.

  35. avatar Necati Genis // June 27, 2011 at 1:41 pm // Reply

    Karekin,

    I did not know this:

    ” This explains why DNA studies have shown that a huge percentage of the population in Turkey (approx. 84.9%), share identical DNA with those who call themselves Armenian.”

    I  dont know  if you are  Armenian or Turkish  but  i admire  your scholarly comments and i will follow  AW mostly for your posts.

  36. No one forced on you anything. I responded to your post in which you supported some other commentator’s calling a holy book a “fairy tales.” I said it was inappropriate to do so in view of religious tolerance that’s widely practiced in the modern, not medieval, world. Pick any religion that suits you best, even worshipping cows. I’ll respect that. But don’t you dare to defile my Christian faith or call my holy book a “fable.” If you think the Word of God is a fable, go worship cows: there’s nothing written in them. I’ll be religiously tolerant towards your bovine belief system.

  37. Berj – in truth, man created god in his own image. It was not the other way around.  And, the Christian god came about kind of late in the game.  

    Necati – the statistic I quoted to you was not my own invention, but the result of scientific study. In that regard, this may be of interest to you:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/are-turks-acculturated-armenians

  38. avatar Necati Genis // June 27, 2011 at 3:40 pm // Reply

    Karekin,

    I quoted your sentence  because i did really not know it.  Not for reject. 

    It is important to me.

    In Anatolia we have a saying of Hz. Ali , “teach me a letter , i will serve  forty years to you”

    Thank you.

  39. avatar Necati Genis // June 27, 2011 at 3:56 pm // Reply

    So , Does it mean that Armenians are relatives of their  ” enemy”  ?

    At least biologically…

  40. What got us as a nation this far is the Armenian Church, it successfully embedded its creed in our nationalistic identity and DNA.  It is the same church that fostered in us our nationalistic existentialism. Mind you, this role has subsided drastically in the last century.
    It is really a miracle to see Armenians survive this long. Unlike any other nation, our faith and national identity have a symbiotic relationship. There is no prerequisite of being Armenian, whether you ought to be an Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant as long as we defend the belief of that has been common to nearly all Armenian Christians. I really do not think it was a coincident the Ark that anchored on mountain Ararat – Where God provided a clean slate to humanity, extended its valley (Khorveerab) to become the cradle of our faith of accepting Jesus Christ. We are mistaken to think this faith was not gift from God, which carries some earthly dangers that worth living for as a nation. This is the same faith my Grandmother saw her family slaughtered in front of her eyes, and it is the same and only faith that she trusted will give her an eternal life.  And I can’t agree more. Amen.
     

  41. for Edward Demian: Your boys are not “only 1/4 Armenian,”  as you write. Your boys are  as Armenian as I am, if they have chosen to identify themselves as being one. We need to stop measuring blood in order to determine who is one of us. And no, no one has made  a superior marriage choice just because they married Armenian. It’s hard enough to find someone you can happily live with forever without checking their blood line. Avery, when I spoke about yellow hair, I was referring to children who inherit their hair or eye colour from one of their parents who is not Armenian and doesn’t have the more common dark hair. (although …ahem, guys,…only her hairdresser knows for sure!) It all comes down to the way you choose to identify yourself. There are people whose family trees are steeped in Armenian history, yet they choose to identify themselves not as Armenians, but as that of the country they have assimilated into. Boyajian – as for the priest who said “let them go to the Catholic church..” shame on him. He has revealed a major flaw in his character. He lacks Christian compassion and understanding. I think we traditionally label this flaw as sin. We need to share the richness of our culture. We need to make sure we make everyone feel equally entitled to sit at the table – (especially if you have my sarma recipe that I got from Armenian Kitchen) We have a tenacious enemy. Let’s join hands with those who come to us. I have been to remote mountain villages in Turkey where all the inhabitants are Hamshens. The warmth of their welcome was so encompassing. They put down their rakes and their hoes and came forward to greet us. They held out their produce, the work of their hands. It simply never occured to us to ask how they did or did not pray. We all struggled with language, but we all understood each other’s warm and accepting smiles. There’s always room at the table. There’s always another plate.

  42. avatar Necati Genis // June 27, 2011 at 5:34 pm // Reply

    ” I speak Western Armenian, not an easy accomplishment considering that my mother was not Armenian. My boys are themselves a product of a mixed marriage, there fore only 1/4 Armenian.” 

    Things are getting more complex..If there is no pure Armenian blood, how can you claim that  Armenians are superior ?   Need to think about it..

    Perouz,

    You can not chose your identity..it comes from  your parents..

    A question: Did you ask those “hemshin people ”  about their identity ?

  43. superior’


    I made two affirmative  ‘superior’ references. First was hyperbole  in response to Metin’s Anti-Armenian, Denialist post in another thread: every time you Turks make outrageous Denialist, Anti-Armenian statements, I’ll retort with more outrage – I make no apologies for doing so, and will do so again, and again until you guys stop.
     
    Second reference (this thread): It is a superior human trait to show compassion and mercy to those one has defeated, as I referenced re Tigranes the Great, an Armenian  King of Kings.
    You like Star Trek, yes ? remember the episode “Arena” ? What happened at the end ? What did the Metron say to Captain Kirk(orian) ?
     

  44. to Necati Genis – of course I did not ask the Hamsens about their identity. Not only do I have better manners than that, it simply does not matter to me. Their hospitality and warmth matters to me. I do not agree that your identity comes from your parents. There are Armenians who are born in Spain and they identify themselves as Spanish, not Armenian. There are others who are born in Spain and they identify themselves as Armenians, not Spanish.  Still others consider themselves Spanish-Armenians, or the reverse. And sso what if your father is Spanish and your mother is Armenian? Who decides if their children are Armenian, Spanish, Spanish- Armenian or Armenian Spanish or whatever.? Why would you care?  It’s their life journey. They get to decide.  Let’s accept people in whatever way they present themselves to us. If they want to embrace our culture, if they want to identify with us, let them in. We have enough heart for them.

  45. “in truth, man created god in his own image.” In whose truth, Karekin? Yours? In most of humanity’s truth it is the other way around. If you have evidence of your truth, lay it out for us.
     
    “And, the Christian god came about kind of late in the game.” There is ONE God, Aplha and Omega, who by definition cannot come early or late because He is the beginning and the end. The game? You call the existence of nature and all living things a “game”? Preposterous…

  46. Necati,
     
    What is your point? That Turks have been living in where they are today from times immemorial and Armenians were nomadic newcomers to the region? Answer this question for yourself, and, if you ever did an independent, i.e non-brainwashed, non-government propagated, historical research, then ask yourself who might have forcibly interbred with whom? A sedentary, civilzationally advanced ancient people or scortching-earth nomadic barbarians?

  47. avatar Necati Genis // June 27, 2011 at 7:59 pm // Reply

    Avery,

    You are not the only one claiming Armenians are the best. You can smell it in almost each post here by Armenian. And i find this normal attitude…No need to apologize.

    I will find Arena and re-watch.

    Perouz,

    If  hybrid, i agree with you. I think , in future the population of the  world will be a mixed-blood race , without any pure identity …such as A big willage..I am afraid ,Until  then, we will keep fighting with each other.

  48. #1 I did not apologize: I will NEVER apologize to a Denialist Anti-Armenian Turk.
    #2 Give specific examples from (Armenian) posters that say we are the ‘best’.
    #3 What you smell is boiling blood – at you Turks who come to our house and insults us by claiming AG did not happen, and accusing us of racism when the Turkish society is saturated with Anti-Armenian hatemongering (tacitly approved by the Turkish Government)

  49. Necati -please don’t refer to people as “hybrid.” Automobiles may be “hybrid,” but humans are not.  One morning in Istanbul, I shared breakfast with a man I had travelled across a vast ocean with in order to find the village his grandparents were driven out of into the death caravan. He hung his head and said that he had been told that he was not a “real” Armenian because his mother was an odar, and because he is also married to an odar.” This man is an Armenian. Why? Because he is willing to travel across the world to fall on his knees on his murdered family’s soil. Because he wants to embrace the culture. Because he wants to claim the Armenian in him. Put another plate on the table for him. Make room for his children. His wife too, if she wants to be an ABC Armenian. They don’t need a blood test. They are ours. Because they want to be.

  50. Nekati:     “[…]in future the population of the world will be a mixed-blood race, without any pure identity.” No one knows what will or will not be in the future except God. What we do know, however, is that in the past, in Asia Minor, Seljuks and their offspring Ottoman Turks implemented for centuries a large-scale practice of Turkification and Islamization of scores of pure-identity native inhabitants of those lands: Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians. It was done by diverse means: (1)forced religious conversion of Christian boys; (2)selling Christian girls to harems; (3)impregnation by rape, often mass rape in front of the girls’ families; etc. I hope you’re intelligent enough to appreciate the difference between the natural process of population mix that may or may not happen in the future and the barbarian methods of your ancestors that resulted not only in taking over Asia Minor from indigenous inhabitants for nomadic Turkish invaders and colonizers and their ultimate genocidal extermination, but also in the mixed-blood “Turkish race” carrying the genes of Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians. I do hope you appreciate the difference…

  51. Nekati    —-In a response to Avery you claim “I find this attitude [claiming Armenians are the best] normal.” Tha-a-a-nk you… This attitude is not based on empty, unfounded national ego, as in case of Turkish nationalists’ spreading flag near the dead Hrant Dink’s body. This attitude is based on a multi-millennia history of existence and creation, hard work and unique contributions to the world civilization. If you’re interested in what contributions make Armenians think they are, if not the best (after all there’s no such a thing as “the best nation”), but resourceful and creative, I’m ready to provide lists in abundabce until you’re green of envy. Until then, familiarize yourself with who realized the project of building the major Turkish shrine: the Dolmabahçe Palace. Answer: Armenian architects Garabet Balyan and his son Nigogayos Balyan. Or maybe you’d be interested in knowing who, as the chief Ottoman architect and civil engineer for sultans Suleiman I, Selim II, and Murad III, has constructed the Selimiye Mosque in Edirne, the Suleiman Mosque in Istanbul, and other structures? Answer: Armenian architect and engineer Mimar Sinan. Ready for more? Just let me know. Always ready to bang Turks showing them who created their nation-state, how it came to being, and what nations lived and worked on those lands before the invasions of Seljuks and during the colonizing Ottoman regime.

  52. “This is good…The best Armenian i like most  is  Captain Christopher Pike who saved humanity”.
    Necati,
    It is the Turkish government that is claiming to be the saviours of the humanity.  Do you read the news lately?   
    During the opening of the conference, Davutoglu announced that “Turkey continues the diplomatic activity that exceeds the region to include the world”, comparing the Turkish diplomat to “fireman rushing to extinguish the fires in his area”.
    He noted that “Turkey will be the state that senses the danger early and will accelerate to prevent crises and the outbreak of fires in the region, and will provide alternative plans for peaceful settlements”, adding: “we do not want our diplomats only to be firefighters, but to be like the architects of cities involved in mapping the political future of the region, through hard work and diplomatic activity in an aggressive way”. 

    We can start with Nechmethin Erbakan.  At the first Gulf War, Mr. Erbakan saw an opportunity to invade Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) under the umbrella of the coalition forces. His aim was controlling the oil fields and annexing Northern Iraq eliminating the possibility of free Kurdistan.   Turcomans who live in Iraqi Kurdistan believe that Mosul should be part of Turkey, since historically it used to be an Ottoman Villayet.   To do so, Erbakan lunched a PR campaign claiming that it is their duty to save the Iraqi Kurds from Saddam. The logic behind it was, since there is no difference between Iraqi and Turkish Kurds, it makes Turkey’s right to intervene in order to protect fellow relatives of Turkish Kurds.  (its all about being humanitarian) .
    Turkish notion of “liberators” did not sound convincing with the US planners and Nechmetin was stopped before putting his plan in action.
    Then came 2003 Operation Iraqi Freedom.  Again, this time Erdogan got excited and like his predecessor saw an opportunity to annex Northern Iraq for the same reasons.  Initially Erdogan agreed to allow the US forces to use Inchirlic base as a lunch pad and use of Turkish air space for Iraqi invasion, on condition, that Turkish forces will advance with US forces and will occupy Kurdistan.  Once more the Turkish plan was rejected by Collin Powell.  Base on the US rejection of the Turkish plan, Erdogan denied the US troops to utilize the Turkish air space and its Southern border.
     After Turkey was told to abandon its plan of invading Iraq, on March 21 2003 about 1000 Turkish soldiers crossed the Zakho border of Iraq, and another 5000 were heading toward the border.  At the border, Turkish troops were met by US Special Forces who were ready to engage the Turkish troops if they did not return back to the northern side of the border.
     The US officials were infuriated with the audacity of the Turks, and it was quoted from an unknown source that the Turks were told to “stay the hell out of Iraq”.
     Turkey’s response was “Turkey would send troops to avert a humanitarian crisis in Northern Iraq, to hold back a flood of refugees and to prevent terrorists crossing its border”.  (again its about being humanitarian).
    This incident did not deter Erdogan from pushing forward his plans through different means.  On July 05 2003 US forces raided a Turkish Special Ops Safe house in city of Suleymaniah in Kurdistan.  11 Special Ops Turkish soldiers were detained and “bagged” then shipped to Baghdad.  According to the leaked intell, Turkish Special Ops were planning series of assassinations of Kurdish leaders in order to instigate a civil war or clashes between Kurds and Turcoman which in turn will provide Turkey a reason to invade Kurdistan under the pretense of protecting Turcoman.  Apparently the Turks underestimated the capabilities of Kurdish Asaish and the US intell community.
    Recently, Turkey has seen yet another opportunity this time to invade Syria.  The unofficial news is suggesting, that in case of incursion Turkey will push 10 to15 Kilometers in Syrian territory and will establish a safe zone for Syrian refugees.  Two days ago, President Gul came up with another valid reason to invade Syria, that is, if Syria starts killing Kurds Turkey cannot stay idle.  This sounds too familiar. 
    I can go on with more examples of Turkish humanitarianism, but it will be too long and boring.

  53. avatar GARO BORNIAN // June 28, 2011 at 4:14 am // Reply

    DEAR DARO

    I LIKED VERY MUCH YOUR INFORMATIONS,AND I WOULD LIKE TO READ MORE ABOUT IT
    SINCE THERE ARE MANY SITES THAT ARE SPEAKING ON NEW MIDDLE EAST,IT IS
    INTERSTING TO KNOW THESE FACTS.
    IF YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME TO WRITE,GIVE US THE ADRESS OF THESE SITES.
    THANK YOU

    PLEASE DAR

  54. avatar Necati Genis // June 28, 2011 at 6:51 am // Reply

    Daron,

    You never read news paper  during The Gulf Crise ? Or did you forget all happened . I suggest you eat more fish since you need  zinc.
    Or, are you trying to mofify the history? If you are, you need to wait 85 years to do so…

    It was Grand Turkish Parliement who refused to enter Iraq with the majority of the votes.Now i can say, they made mistake.

    Musul and  Kerkuk are Turkman soil and belongs to Turkey . Today This land is occupied by so-called kurdistan  with the help of US after kürts betrayed their  home.

    I feel sad for Syrians and it is our duty to help refugees unless they are kurdish.
    Because hundrends thousands of   kurdish refugees fleed to Turkey during Gulf War became  terorist tools of  PKK.

  55. Well, on some level, yes, national identity and consciousness can probably be described as a state-of-mind. Armenians, whether in their Anatolian homeland or someplace else in the world, choose their affiliation. It may be linguistic, religious or cultural. Or, they might abandon all of the above and adopt the cloak of a new identity despite being born into an Armenian family.

    In Turkey, only a tiny percentage of the population can claim any blood connection to the original Seljuk or Ottoman invaders. However, hundreds of thousands of Muslims came from neighboring regions who had no Turkish blood, but were converts, and once in Turkey, adopted the cloak of Turkishness, as per Ataturk’s direction.

    And, let’s not forget, over the centuries, many, many Armenians preceded them by choosing to identify with the ruling forces, rather than their ancestral people. The celebrated architect Sinan is just one, albeit, the most famous example, of that phenomenon.

    By the early 20th C., those who still identified themselves as Armenians were actually the last remnants of ancient Armenia, yet they still comprised 25% of the overall population of Anatolia. I would even suggest that ‘true’ Turks were something of a minority at that point. Due to the strategic plan of intermarriage with minority women, the traces of anything authentically central Asian in the imperial families were minute, at best. Yet, the cultural cloak branded everyone as being Turkish, both for internal and external consumption, even though people were well aware of the hard truths. 

    I’m not sure where this leaves us, other than we are all human and everthing else – language, religion, culture, national identification – are all really just decoration. Countries come and go, religions come and go, and anyone can adopt any language they choose. 

    The best we can do is to respect each other, because in reality, we never know how deep our blood ties really go. This is the true sin of war and violence. For Armenians and Turks, their connections are probably alot more familial than anyone can ever imagine. And, this is why this enmity is so sad, unfortunate and unnecessary – no matter which side it is coming from. As they say, either you are part of the solution or part of the problem, which do we want to be? This is the question we should all ask ourselves.  

     
      
        
     

  56. “And, this is why this enmity is so sad, unfortunate and unnecessary – no matter which side it is coming from.

    Still trying to obfuscate the guilty party, are you ?
     
    Q1: Which people – Armenians or (Seljuk) Turks – invaded whose lands ?
    A1: (Seljuk) Turks invaded Armenian Highlands.
     
    Q2: Which country was it that 100% supported ‘Azeri’ Tatars with funding, military equipment, ammunition, medical facilities, special forces brigades disguised as Gray Wolves, retired NATO generals –  in their attempt to exterminate more Armenians in Artsakh from 1988-1994 ?
    A2: Turkey.
     
    Q3:  Which country was it that assembled an invasion force at the border, a whole army, threatening to invade in 1993 to support their ‘Azeri’ Tatar Turkic cousins as their attempt to exterminate 200,000 Armenians was failing, and they were facing massive defeat ?
    A3: Turkey threatened to invade Armenia, cut it in half and link up with Azerbaijan.
     
    Q4: Which country is it that offers to establish diplomatic relations with her neighbor with no preconditions ?
    A4: Armenia
     
     
    Q5: Which country is it that rejects RoA’s offer to establish diplomatic relations with no preconditions ?
    A5: Turkey.
     
    Could go on, and on, and on with hundreds of examples, but the point should be clear: enmity is coming from the Turkish side; always have, always will.
     

  57. avatar Necati Genis // June 28, 2011 at 10:54 am // Reply

    Ani,

    According to the survey Karekin gave,  Turks and  Armenians  descends from same root.

    Shocked..? Me too…

     This kind of incidences , i thought, happen only in the old Turkish movies…The prince of Byzantium  and Kara Murat finds out they are brothers after they  see same medallion  with a wolf  on their neck…

    About superiority:

    I think it is a matter of pyschology.  A mentally healty one will not claim he is superiors to the others. Actually what lies under that  feelings is inferiority complex.

    Avery,

    Check the post of Berch  on June 21, 2011..Do you think a healty brain will write 69 lines to show that his race is so cute ?

  58. Karekin: 
     
    (1)The homeland of Armenians is the Armenian Plateau in eastern Asia Minor, not Anatolia, a new creation of Turks aimed at eliminating anything related to Armenians in the region.
     
    (2)It doesn’t really matter what percentage of the Turkish population can claim blood connection to the original Seljuk invaders or Ottoman colonizers. The historical truth is that Seljuks and Mongols, the amalgamation of whom resulted in Ottoman and modern-day Turks, have blood connection to their origins in Mongolian steppes and the mountains of Altay.
     
    (3)That some Armenians chose to identify with the ruling forces rather than their ancestral people was done by choice, whereas during the Ottoman years and especially before and after the genocide many Armenians were forcibly made to identify themselves as Turks or Muslims. There is a huge difference between the two cases.
     
    (4)The Turkish “strategic plan” of intermarriage with minority women to ennoble their Mongoloid race failed. As the humanity came to see, even in the beginning of the 20th century Ottoman Turks essentially remained barbarians: mass slaughters of human beings, theft of lands, pastures, Turkification of other peoples’ culture, forced religious conversions, mass rapes, indescribable tortures and mutilations testify to the fact.
     
    (5)We are all humans and everything else – language, religion, culture, national identification – make every human a distinct individual. They are not decoration. They are part of a national identity that formed for hundreds, and in the case of Armenians, thousands of years.
    “Countries come and go” – many, Armenia being one of them, remained for thousands of years.
    “Religions come and go” – many, such as Judaism, Confucianism, etc., remained for thousands of years.
    “and anyone can adopt any language they choose” – while many others choose to preserve their native one.
     
    (6)The best we can do is to respect each other – a trivial truth. But how a victim can respect a murderer if the murderer didn’t repent and got away with the murder of the whole nation?
     
    (7)I personally don’t feel I have any familial connection with the allophylian Turks. I have a strong connection with my ancestral lands, traditions, civilization, and culture in Western Armenia. These lands saw invaders and foreign rule long before the Turks appeared on the world map. But under all invaders and colonizers Armenians were able to preserve to a certain degree their distinct national, ethnic, religious, and racial identity until they were barbarously eliminated by the Turks.
     
    (8)”this enmity is so sad, unfortunate and unnecessary – no matter which side it is coming from.” Well, it DOES matter which side it is coming from. My enmity comes from the fact of genocidal extermination of my people and their millennia-long civilization. I don’t understand where the Turkish enmity comes from? Were Turks exterminated by Armenians en masse, barred from their ancestral homeland in Mongolia?
     
    (9)We want to be a part of the solution, but the part preceding this one is on Turkish responsibility: repentance and reparations for the crime against humanity.

  59. Well, Ani…this is the perennial story of the conquered and the conqueror, the powerful and weak, the ruler and the ruled…isn’t it?  Yet, for some of our people to keep arguing about a conquest that is now a thousand years old, is a bit odd and it perplexes me.  Yes, it happened, no one is debating that. Now, if you want to second guess the Armenian leaders at that time who thought that moving to the Seljuk side to fight the Greeks was a good idea, go right ahead. But you should realize, from the most ancient periods of history, Armenians have lived with and among others, and often with those who had immense power over them. I have often heard it said that if Armenians had built fortresses and armies instead of churches, they’d had been much better off. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but what I know is that you cannot change what has happened in history, you can only observe it from a distance. We are all prisoners of the moment, and the moment is now. You can choose to make this moment when you are alive better, or you can waste your time pounding walls and fretting about the ancient past. We can learn from the past, but we cannot change it.  However, if a better future for Armenia will come from developing a symbiotic relationship with Turkey, then I think it would be a very good thing indeed. Like it or not, Turkey is our neighbor. It’s always better to be on good terms with your neighbor than on bad terms, especially when neither one of you is moving anywhere anytime soon.

  60. avatar Random Armenian // June 28, 2011 at 1:32 pm // Reply

    Avery,

    Where did you read about James T. KirkORIAN? Do you have a reference?

  61. avatar Random Armenian // June 28, 2011 at 1:42 pm // Reply

    All current groups of people are mixed from of some sort. If you look at the history of any large country, they are most often than not formed by the merging of various smaller groups. If you look Italy under a magnifying glass you will see unique local cultures that span back centuries.

    The further you look back in history, centuries or millenia, you’ll see other groups being integrated and absorbed to a larger one. And we Armenians are no different. If you go back far enough, you’ll come to a point where there were no Armenians. At what point did a group of people start calling themselves Hye?

    “Pure blood” and “genes” is not as simple as most people think.

  62. Karekin:
     
    I think “some people” who keep arguing about a Turkish conquest of Armenia that is now a thousand years old would se it from the historical perspective had this conquest not resulted in near-total annihilation of Armenians. It is this ultimate act of Turkish barbarism that prompts “some people” to look back a thousand years. I hope you understand. The Armenian leaders at that time of Seljuk invasions did not explicitly “move to the Seljuk side to fight the Greeks.” They attempted to play one power against the other in order to preserve Armenian independence and statehood. I hope you understand that, too. I, in turn, realize that from the most ancient periods of history Armenians have lived with and among others, and often with those who had power over them. I accept that. What I don’t accept and will never accept is that those who had power over Armenians in the most ancient period of history mass murdered my nation leaving no trace of its rich civilization. You don’t have to remind me that history cannot be changed. No one here advocates such an unrealistic solution. But crimes committed in history actually can be acknowledged and apologized for. This, and only this, will lead to living on good terms with your neighbor. I hope you understand this, too.
     
    P.S. Even a symbiotic relationship with Turkey must be developed after Turks repent and apologize. Also, I’m not moving to my Western Armenia occupied by the Turks.

  63. avatar Random Armenian // June 28, 2011 at 2:11 pm // Reply

    Avery,

    Nevermind, I think you were making a joke about James T KirkORIAN :)

  64. Random   —-All current groups of people are mixed from of some sort, that’s true. But you must distinguish the deliberate acts of creating a new nation, as in Turkey, by forcibly converting, interbreeding with, and Turkifying Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians, or exterminating them all together and natural processes of integration and absorption that took place throughout millennia of human existence. These are two different instances.

  65. Yeah, Grish.  Thanks for the link.  I wonder why our illustrious Turkish guests keep silence about how “civilized” their make-shift nation is?

  66. “You never read news paper  during The Gulf Crise ? Or did you forget all happened . I suggest you eat more fish since you need  zinc.”
    Its my job to read news papers, and for your information, fish is known to be rich in Omega-3 and 6 Fatty Acids, so your choice for Zinc is wrong.

    “Or, are you trying to mofify the history? If you are, you need to wait 85 years to do so…”
    I have no desire to modifying  history, it is your (Turkish) field of expertise changing history.
    “It was Grand Turkish Parliement who refused to enter Iraq with the majority of the votes.Now i can say, they made mistake”.
    The refusal of the Grand Turkish Parliament came as a theatric after Erdogan’s plan was rejected by the US.
    “Musul and  Kerkuk are Turkman soil and belongs to Turkey . Today This land is occupied by so-called kurdistan  with the help of US after kürts betrayed their  home.”
    Mosul, Kirkuk, Dahouk, Irbil and the surrounding vicinities are historically Kurdish homeland.
    Turcomans were brought to Iraq as Muslim soldiers in the seventh century and their number did not exceed more than a thousand soldiers.  However, major influx of Turcomans into Iraq occurred around ninth century.  The homeland of Turcoman (Oghuz Turks) is Aral steppes.
    “I feel sad for Syrian and it is our duty to help refugees unless they are Kurdish”.
    It appears that your compassion is limited to Syrian Sunnis and the Islamic Brotherhood, Kurds do not deserve your generosity. Then, based on your statement, you are contradicting President Gul and Davoutoghlou; I thought you guys were all “fireman”.

  67. avatar Random Armenian // June 28, 2011 at 2:30 pm // Reply

    Berj,

    Yes you’re right. Turkification is like artificial selection versus natural selection. But not all mixing was the result of Turkification though. People do fall in love across group boundaries.

    ps. I’m borrowing the natural/artificial selection terms from the theories on evolution, but don’t read to much into the analogy.

  68. Sorry, my last comment was addressed to Necati

  69. Muslim Brothers?  Turkish Cousins?  Hatfieldoglus VS McCoyans?  It makes one’s head spin.

    Bottomline for me has to do with crime and punishment and my sense of justice.  Karekin would suggest that it is futile to fight the status quo and we should focus on RoA and leave the rest to the history books.  But like many here, I just can’t convince my muscles, sinews, bones, blood, mind, heart, and all my molecules, to accept the slaughter of a couple million people as a closed chapter in history.  Just can’t do it.  Especially since Turkey seems ever poised to complete the job of annihilating us if given half a chance.  Some Muslim brothers!

    I read Karekins link re: the Discover article about genetic similarities between Turks and Armenians.  The article suggests that there is great genetic similarity between ‘Anatolian’ Turks and Armenians.  More research needs to be done of course, but it means that there were a lot of Armenians that became ‘Turks’ (by force and by choice) over the centuries and our enemy is not that different from ourselves genetically.  Our differences have more to do with culture, mindsets, language, religion, than they do to our genetic history.  What a shock to ‘Anatolian’ Turks who see themselves as a superior race, to find out that they have more in common with Armenians then they do with Central Asians! 

    But for me, it just tells me that a terrible crime was committed for heinous reasons that reflect the worst of human nature: exaggerated pride, greed and desire for power.  Ottoman Turks and CUP have gotten away with murder for 96 years and modern day Turks should stand with Armenians to call this crime what it is and demand justice.  Modern Turkey was built on the backs and blood  of murdered Armenians.  To let this go unpunished, makes modern Turks accessories to the crime of genocide.  And for that, there is no statute of limitations.

  70. Random  —-re: “People do fall in love across group boundaries.” Rarely were there recorded cases of Armenians’ voluntary intermarriages with Muslims and Turks. Generally they intermarried themselves. As a rule. Of course, there were exceptions. However, the bulk of Armenians’ integration and absorption into alien groups was forceful. We need to make this clear to brainwashed Turks posting here.

  71. Exactly, Boyajian!

  72. Avery has a way of quickly bottom-lining things.  He does it with the words, invade, invader, invasion. invading.
    Not much needs to be added.

  73. Periyz, does this include the Jews of Haiastan whose last names are ending with the ‘ian’ of the Armenians.  Actually, Jews in all the various nations of the world do adopt the surnames that is linked to the nations where they live.  Hence, does this mean Jews in Armenia are Armenians??

  74. Manooshag, I can’t speak for the Jews in Armenia. Some of them may consider themselves Jews who are living in Armenia, and some may think of themselves as Armenians who have Jewish beliefs. I know of one Jewish man in Istanbul who absolutely does not consider himself to be a Turk. He thinks of himself as a Jew who happens to live in Turkey.  But this may not be true of all Jews who live there. I know there are Jews in Poland who consider themselves to be Polish people who happen to be of  Jewish faith. The Polish identity is more important to them than the Jewish faith. It would not matter to me where I lived, I would always consider myself an Armenian. I was born one, and I will die one no matter where I live or what happens to me. But this is not true of everyone, and I respect their own sense of self-identity. I have no doubt there are Jews in Armenia who would consider themselves Jews no matter where they lived. I know one Armenian man in Canada who has Jewish faith. He considers himself an Armenian who happens to have converted to a belief in the teachings of Judiasim. I respect his self-identity as well as his own personal spiritual journey. Since nothing, and no one, can change my own sense of being an Armenian, I acknowledge that everyone else has the same right to self determination.

  75. Manooshag, don’t forget there are Armenians living in Istanbul who would never deny they are Armenian. They live Armenian lives the best they can in what is often a hostile environment, both to themselves and to their church. Like Hrant Dink, they are Armenian no matter where they are.  You may also know people who are Armenian but do not identify themselves as being one. They have no interest in our language, faith, culture, history. They have chosen to assimilate in the country where they live. If I want the right to be an Armenian, no matter what, I have to respect their rights too. I have written previously about a man who has just recently discovered that one of his parents is Armenian. He is very proud of this and wants to learn the  customs and history and faith. He’s becoming a real good sarma maker too! And why should he deny the other part of his heritage? Both are rich and rewarding for him. It’s not always either/or for people. I think it is more important to judge people by the values and morals they live by. You can have Armenian blood back to before Noah, but if you are a scam artist who sits on the internet all day grooming other Armenians for fraudulent investment schemes, or if you are doing the scams that have made headlines, who cares if you call yourself an Armenian? You are really a nobody.

  76. Random: right, it was a joke. Necatin decided to get cute with me  and cite Capt Christopher Pike from Star Trek in response to a serious post of mine, so I made up the Kirk(orian) baloney  {see the post  where I say “…5,000 years….”}: out-outrageous the outrageous (new adj.) and out-cute the cute (new adj.) –  SOP with our Turk guests. They play nice, I’ll do the same: they open the door to something, I’ll drive a truck thru.
     
     
    Ani: very well said (1) thru (9). I would add “Return” to (9): Repentance/Recognition, Reparations, and Return (of occupied lands).
     
    Perouz: Thanks. Somebody appreciates my ‘hard work’ 
     
     
    Boyajian: well said re response to Karekin, DNA, etc.
     
     
    On the DNA link: I have not studied it in detail, so won’t comment in detail at this time.
    I am not a geneticist, nor an anthropologist. (just a computer science man).
    But I know that even in hard sciences (e.g. Physics) wrong conclusions are reached  and go unchallenged more often than most  laymen believe (based on insufficient sample size, crucial but subtle errors in logic,…. lots of ways to get a wrong answer).
    Some things I will want to know: where were the Armenian samples collected ? Turk samples. Who were they ? How geographically distributed were the samples of Turks and Armenians. I know the charts look pretty, but I want to see the raw data first – see from what sort of data the charts were extrapolated.
    How many people were actually sampled ? Things of that nature.
     

  77. Avery, I want to mention that I really like your summary of the source of enmity between Armenians and Turks.  It really blows my mind that there are Armenians who would consider letting Turks get away with genocide.  I’ll never understand it.

    Exactly Ani!   “But how a victim can respect a murderer if the murderer didn’t repent and got away with the murder of the whole nation?”

    Karekin, you can’t be for real!  Armenia offers open diplomatic relations to Turkey without preconditions, which Turkey rejects, and you find the need to preach to Armenians about how to be neighborly?  I sure hope you are taking your neighborly peace-making crusade to Turks and not just Armenians because that would not be very neighborly.

    Perouz, I love the way you think!  I am convinced that the true nature of Armenians which developed over centuries was to be adaptable and creative in the face of adversity.  My Haiastansi father was as stubborn and staunchly Armenian as most, but he was also a man who could converse in eight languages, volunteered as a translator for the police in our community and traded herb gardening secrets with our Japanese, Greek and Indian neighbors.  They all knew he was Armenian and also knew to show up at the back fence when the shish kabob was on the grill.  He impressed them not only with culinary skills but with his knowledge of their customs and culture.  The Armenians that were welcomed into our home came from all corners of the world: China, Russia, Italy, Jerusalem, Australia, Greece, Romania, Germany, Argentina, Beirut, Aleppo, and of course, Armenia.  They each brought with them the customs of the places they had lived, but we always bonded over our Armenianism which transcended the varying dialects, educations and faiths.   To me, growing up Armenian, meant I could be Armenian in whatever circumstance I found myself, simply by being me. 

  78. Is any of editors of AW  a Kurd ?

  79. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // June 29, 2011 at 6:21 am // Reply

    Armenian roots among Arabs…Today In Al-Qabas News Paper
    My articles are there as an Armenian Doctor without my name…
    So even Arabs have Armenian roots they define them as Turkish Orphans…

    الجذور الأرمنية

    كتب أحمد الصراف :

    في بادرة غير مسبوقة أصدر مشرعو ولاية «رود أيلاند» RhodeIsland الأميركية قانونا بإلزام تدريس تاريخ «الإبادات الجماعية» التي تعرض لها اليهود والأرمن وأكراد العراق والكمبوديون والروانديون وأهالي دارفور وغيرهم عبر التاريخ. وهدف المشرعون من ذلك إلى بيان مدى خطورة هذه الجرائم وما تمثله من بشاعة، ولحث المجتمع الدولي على منع تعرض أي شعب لها. وفي هذا الصدد تقول باحثة وطبيبة كويتية، من اصل ارمني، ان أبحاثها المختبرية أثبتت أن أفراد قبائل عربية عدة كعنزة وشمر والظفير، وبالذات ممن عاشوا لفترة في سهول سوريا والعراق، لديهم جينات وراثية أرمنية، وأن هؤلاء ليسوا إلا أحفاد أولئك الأرمن الذين تعرض آباؤهم للإبادة في بداية القرن الماضي على ايدي الأتراك، والذين تم سبي نسائهم وبيعهن في اسواق النخاسة على أنهن أتراك.
    وفي «كتاب جدتي»، الذي صدر في تركيا عام 2004، كشفت المحامية فتحية تشيتين، السر، لأول مرة، عن أمر طالما اعتبره الأتراك محظورا، وذلك بحديثها عن أصول جدّتها هيرانوش، وكيف أن أهلها غيروا اسمها إلى سحر، وأنها كانت في الحقيقة أرمنية الأصل وتم خطفها، وأُجبرت على اعتناق الإسلام بعد المجزرة التي ارتكبت عام 1915 بحقهم.
    وقد تبنت صحيفة «اللوموند» الفرنسية قضية حفيدة هيرانوش، أي فتحية تشيتين، ووصفتها بأنها من المطالبات علناً بالاعتراف بالجذور الأرمنية للكثيرين في المجتمع التركي، الذي تقيّده محظورات وممنوعات عدة في هذا الخصوص. وقالت الصحيفة إن جهودها ساهمت في إماطة اللثام عن مئات القصص المشابهة والتي بينت واقعاً حاول البعض نسيانه عمدا، وكيف أن هناك في تركيا، كما في غيرها من الدول العربية والإسلامية، من يتحدرون باصولهم من أولئك الذين نجوا من مذابح الأرمن، ومن النساء والفتيات بالذات، أجبرن على تغيير ديانتهن وتبنّي هوية من استعبدهن. وتقول الباحثة إن هؤلاء الأرمن كان يشار إليهم بأنهم «بقايا السيف»!
    اعتقد أن قصة هؤلاء تستحق تفرغ كاتب أو باحث أرمني للكتابة عنها، كما فعل الكاتب الأميركي اليكس هيلي مع جذور زنوج أميركا.

    أحمد الصراف
    habibi.enta1@gmail.com

  80. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // June 29, 2011 at 7:18 am // Reply

    Margret Thatcher’s Daughter, Carol, do you think she is 100% English…!
    I feel her father looks Egyptian…tall with large eyes…I use to tell my colleagues till i read this article….Read this article from wikipedia…
    DNA tests in association with a reality TV programme 100% English screened on Channel 4 on 13 November 2006 indicate that Thatcher may be descended from a Bedouin tribe, or that her origins may date to the desert farmers of ancient Mesopotamia, which centuries ago covered all of Iraq and large portions of contemporary TurkeySyria and Iran.[19] ( Wikipedia)

    Sylva
     

  81. Boyajian – I’m glad you read the link on DNA. I too found it to be eye-opening. It shows that the blood links between Turks and Armenians are indeed, very old and very deep. Think of how many native American Indians or African slaves intermarried or co-mingled with the invading English or Spanish, yet 500 years later, although the US has a black president, it is still the WASPY white guys who hold the true reigns of power.

    In Turkey, at the end of the Ottoman empire, we all know that things went terribly wrong and off-kilter. It was a perfect storm of factors that led to the CUP takeover and their genocidal campaign.  So, although Armenians (and Greeks), were the fundamental human elements of the empire for almost 1000 years, the ones who did all the real work, built all the structures and monuments, grew all the food, conducted all the commerce and maintained all manner of civil life, the CUP turned against them. Why?  I would submit that it was because the key leaders of the CUP were not Anatolian, and unlike other real Anatolians/Turks and Armenians, they did not share any deep DNA ties. This is what allowed them to do what they did…they had no connections, no families, no cemetaries to visit…they were totally unconnected to Armenians on any level. The lack of any personal feelings and the lack of depth allowed them to not only order the killing of millions, but to also depose and exile anyone connected to the Ottoman ruling families. Again…the CUP leaders – always based in Salonika –  had none of the blood connections that existed across Anatolia and Armenia like an ancient spider web. 

    As for the Armenian term, Hye or Hay, or Hai…the best linguistic evidence seems to point to the Azzi-Hayasa people, from about 1500 BC. They were indigenous to east Anatolia/Armenian, and called themselves the Hayasa…it seems that this ethnic designation has carried from at least that point to modern times. While this may be debatable, we should remember that the term Armen/Ermen, was actually a foreign designation. Armenians have always called themselves ‘Hay’, since time immemorial. The idea that Armenians are not native to the region and came from the west is false, and derived from a 19th C. desire to identify with Europe and the west, and devalue their west Asian roots. This kind of Eurocentric thinking says alot about how the Europeans made Armenians feel bad about themselves, in an effort to promote European cultural superiority, even though Armenian culture was thousands of years older and more advanced than anything in Europe.
     

  82. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // June 29, 2011 at 3:31 pm // Reply

    This is what I read as an answer for todays article from very famous well known Iraqi Historian, Ali Al-Wardi…about the red Sultan Abdul-Hamid…They say his mother as well as his father were Armenians He wanted to prove the opposite so he slayed the Armenian

    – أبناء الأرمن

    عبدالخالق حسين   |  بريطانيا – Wednesday 29 June 2011 03:46:00 PM

    في الحقيقة هذه الكاتبة التركية رائعة واتخذت من جدتها الأرمنية سبيلاً للدفاع عن الأرمن، بينما في أحيان أخرى شبهة الانتساب إلى أقلية عرقية معينة في بلد ما يسبب الانتقام، كما حصل للسلطان عبدالحميد الثاني، إذ يذكر العلامة علي الوردي في هذا الخصوص ما يلي: 
    ولد عبدالحميد في 22 أيلول 1842 من جارية شركسية اسمها “حاجي” يقال أنها كانت أرمنية فأسلمت، وقد أحيط الطفل منذ يومه الأول بإشاعات غير حسنة ويذكر أن أباه السلطان عبدالمجيد لم يعترف بأبوته إلا بعد مرور أسبوع على مولده، وصارت نساء الحريم يتهامسن- كما هي عادتهن في مثل هذه الأمور- عن نسبة الطفل إلى أب أرمني يدعى بدروس كان يعمل طباخاً في القصر ثم اختفى ولم يظهر له بعد ذلك أي أثر. ويرى بعض المؤرخين أن هذه الأقاويل التي أحاطت بمولد عبدالحميد كان لها أثر غير قليل على سلوكه وتفكيره التي عندما أصبح سلطاناً. (علي الوردي، لمحات اجتماعية، ج3، ص 12، دار كوفان للنشر-لندن، 1992) 
    وعلى الأغلب هذه العقدة هي التي كانت وراء المجازر التي ارتكبها السلطان عبدالحميد ضد الأرمن ليثبت العكس أنه ليس من أب أرمني.

     

  83. “CUP turned against them [Armenians and Greeks]. Why? I would submit that it was because the key leaders of the CUP were not Anatolian, and unlike other real Anatolians/Turks and Armenians, they did not share any deep DNA ties.” —- Karekin, one can really wear out debating with you because you repeat the same mantra over and over again. OK, CUP did not share any deep DNA ties with Armenians. All of CUP or only those who originated in Salonika? Because only a few in the CUP were from Salonika. Let’s hypothetically admit all of the CUP leadership turned against Armenians because they did not share any deep DNA ties with Armenians. Let’s see. Who ethnicity- and origin-wise were the people on the many sites of mass murders of Armenians? For example, the valis-governors and their staff, local executives and their, village heads and their staff? Who were the army commanders and police chiefs? Who were soldiers, gendarmes, and the Chettes released from prisons for the sole purpose of massacring Armenians? Who were the rapists, mutilators, and thieves that co-inhabited the same cities and villages where Armenians lived? Who were the ones who pillaged and burnt to the ground Armenian churches and monasteries? Were they not Turks and Kurds? If you know you’re related to someone by blood, would you go and mutilate him? Burn him alive? Rape his sister? His mother? I’m so tired of this primitive assessment of the motives for perpetrating the genocide of the Armenians. I asked you hundred times: Stalin was a Georgian in the Soviet leadership and many top party leaders had various ethnic background. Should we say that Georgians went against the Soviet people in the 1930s’ purges? Enough already! Modern-day Russian leadership apologized for the purges. Repeat: Russian leadership apologized for the purges committed by a Georgian Stalin, because it is idiotic to dissociate Stalin form the crimes based on his ethnicity in a country where he represented the highest echelon of power. No matter who he was ethnically or who some of the CUP leaders were ethnically; they were the official government of Ottoman Turkey. Period!

  84. Karekin, I agree with Karo that your thesis on the reasons for CUP enmity stemming from the lack of DNA similarity with Armenians is too simplistic.  CUP leaders may have been genetically distinct from us, but as Karo points out, the rank and file Turks who carried out the duties of ensuring our genocide were more like us then they were like the CUP leaders.  Yes, Balkan Turks and Circassians participated, along with Kurds and ‘Anatolian’ Turks.  It was a massive and shocking crime that defies simple explanation and for this reason must be reckoned on the scales of justice. 

  85. “…but as Karo points out, the rank and file Turks who carried out the duties of ensuring our genocide were more like us then they were like the CUP leaders”


    Boyajian, I read Karo’s post, and do not see where he says Turks were more like us.
    In fact he says the opposite: If you know you’re related to someone by blood, would you go and mutilate him?”

    And let’s call a spade a spade: Jews from Salonika didn’t do it: Turks did it. 
    There were other sundry helpers – but it was a Turk show from beginning to end.

    I don’t see too many Jews occupying our lands now: lots of Turks though.
    It wasn’t Jews who massed an Army at the border of Armenia threatening to invade in 1993.
    I wasn’t Jews who massively helped Azeris in their attempt to exterminate Artsakh’s Armenians.
    Yes, I know Israel supplied stuff to Azerbaijan: it was for cold hard cash – nothing personal, business.
    Turks did it for no other reason than to extinguish both Armenia and Arsakh. 
    It was personal: visceral hatred of Armenians and Armenia.
     

  86. Necati,

    You sound ready to commit Genocide against Arabs and Kurds. You and yours will receive a warm welcome if you try to take Kirkuk and Mosul. Our Arab and Kurdish friends are ready to disprove your thesis in the most persuasive manner.
    And, added bonus: the Israelis and the Americans will help defend the territorial integrity of Iraq.

  87. avatar Grish Begian // June 29, 2011 at 6:45 pm // Reply

    Nobody took Hitler’s DNA, but he was born and raised outside of Germany in Austria, then he became a German dictator, he screw naive German population against the world, especially against Jews, because he had psychological problems in Vienna, same as Turkish CUP leaders.. they lost the wars in Balkans and got revenge from their own Christian subjects, then made up their justification, why Christian population of Turkey annihilated!!WOW what a philosophy is behind Armenian Genocide!! I wonder after 10 more years we Armenians are going to see more philosopher from the land of “Midnight Express” with some kinds of  Armenian names and specialists who will present their documents with “Western Armenian” printouts, as Genocide specialists!!of course Turks will claim  “Armenians are not united for the truth of AG…then they will print in Armenian alphabet “The History Of Truth” Turkish magazine….yes Turks will falsify the truth of AG with the help of some “Armenian students” registered in “ANKARA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF FOREIGN LANGUAGES!! of course Karekin will be the headmaster of that Dept.!!

  88. avatar Necati Genis // June 29, 2011 at 7:48 pm // Reply

    JDA,

    How are you ?  welcome back..

    1. How did you feel that i am ready for genoside ?
    2. I know kürts are your friends. But Turks and Hays are  brothers.( Karekin)  
        You will  betray your brothers ?

  89. Most Armenian posters @AW disagree with Karekin’s  posts and theories that he espouses.
     
    Q1: If Turks and Armenians are ‘brothers’, why did Gul sue and win when someone “accused” him for having an Armenian mother.
    Q2: If Turks and Armenians are ‘brothers’, a Turkish opposition politician, Canan Aritman, has “accused” Gul of having Armenian blood, and demanded that he undergo a DNA test.
    Q3: If Turks and Armenians are ‘brothers’, why were our ‘brothers’ massively helping ‘Azeri’ Tatars who were attempting to exterminate about 200,000 of Turks’ Armenian ‘brothers’.
    Q4: If Turks and Armenians are ‘brothers’, why did Turks mass a whole Army at the border of Armenian threatening to invade and cut Armenia in half, and wipe out both RoA and Artsakh.
     
    I could go on for several pages of counterexamples as to why Turks act towards Armenians that is diametrically opposite to the common understanding of ‘brotherhood’.
    So, notwithstanding any purported DNA links between Turks and Armenians, easily observable behavioural differences clearly indicate we are different peoples.
     

  90. Boyajian, I read Karo’s post, and do not see where he says Turks were more like us.
    In fact he says the opposite: “ If you know you’re related to someone by blood, would you go and mutilate him?”

    Avery, I have to agree with you that Karo didn’t say what I wrote; I extrapolated from his words in light of the article that reports the great DNA similarities between Armenians and ‘Anatolian’ Turks.  Clearly Karo was saying that the majority of genocidal crimes were carried out by non-Salonikan Turks, who didn’t think of themselves as our brothers.

    In my opinion, degree of DNA similarity wasn’t a main determining factor in the genocide.  This is a load of hooey!   The main factor was a mob mindset of superiority and disregard for morality fueled by a pan-turanic dream

    So, notwithstanding any purported DNA links between Turks and Armenians, easily observable behavioural differences clearly indicate we are different peoples.

    Yes, we are different people in our national characteristics which are derived from our culture and customs, psychology, and national identity—but not apparently from our DNA.  

    And yes people who knowingly share family blood ties kill each other everyday!  What do you think happened in Rwanda?   Hutus and Tutsis were practically cousins.

    Lets be clear:  the genocide was a crime committed by a governing national group against a minority group for the purposes of eliminating the Armenians and appropriating all that was theirs.  It was about greed and trumped up revenge and specious security risks.  A power and land grab of enormous proportions.  Not because we lacked or shared DNA.

  91. avatar Grish Begian // June 30, 2011 at 10:24 am // Reply

    Necati,
    If you agree with ridicule comments of Karekin about DNA, why you people call yourself Turks???when your blood DNA has more Armenian DNA (80%) than Turks (20%), why you don’t correct your brainwashed Turks as ‘Islamized Hayers” and accept Armenian Genocide committed by those terrible Turks!!

  92. ANI, you speak the truths so well… Abrees!

  93. Grish Begian,

    It is not ridicule comment, it is a result of scintific survey.

    Turkish people saw this truth  long time ago and shouted it at the Taksim Square ,

    “We are all Armanians , we are all Hirant.”

  94. Then again, it could be argued that after 4 – 5000 years, those of us who continue to identify ourselves as Armenians, are probably the most stalwart, ambidahn, difficult remants of that historic past. With a history that predates most nationstates on the planet, you’d think that Armenians would be like the Chinese or the Indians, but no…just the opposite. So, where did all those generations of Armenians go? Where did they end up? Yes, some migrated to other countries, but they were very few. The vast majority, either by choice or by force or by strategy, blended in with others along the way…with Arabs, with Persians, with Greeks and yes, with Turks.  We are not just the survivors, as some like to describe it, but the hangers-on.  Why can’t we just admit this as a part of our history, instead of making a value judgement about it? Why this insistence on some kind ‘purity’, which is highly unlikely, based on our history.  This blending has made all of us, Armenians and Turks, richer and more complex as peoples. For me, this is a very good thing. Inclusiveness is always much better than building walls around ourselves, ghetto style. As I have said before, I will not be a victim, of either Turks or Armenians, but I will also not close my door or my mind to either tradition, because they all belong to me and are part of me, whether I like it or not. So, I might as well just get used to it and celebrate it with everyone, as much as possible. By the way, could someone please pass the raki? Thanks!

     

  95. avatar Necati Genis // July 1, 2011 at 9:21 am // Reply

    Ha Ha,

    Karekin,

    would you like some ice in your Raki?

    And do not forget  white cheese and melon  on the table  !

  96. Question to Karekin and Necati who are just so sure that Turks in Turkey are actually Armenians: if it is true, why don’t all those ‘Armenians’ in Turkey openly announce they are Armenian and declare it  Republic of Western Armenia  and Cilicia ?
    (instead of what it’s called today: Republic of Turkey).
    What are they afraid of ? Their fellow ‘Armenians’ ?
     

  97. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 1, 2011 at 11:07 am // Reply

    Since Eleventh century
    Seljuks invaded many land and raped
    So became A Mixed Race
    They raped beautiful girls
    They left ugly behind
    In their clever ways
    No body can do like thems…!
    New generations know
    Now more …through the webs
    They are never pure
    Their parents tell them…
    “Your grandmothers were raped”
    Forced to marry (Turkified )
    Like the story of lawyer Fathia Cetin…
    Translated to many languages
    So every one to know…
    How betrayers they are…

    SP

     

  98. avatar Necati Genis // July 1, 2011 at 11:30 am // Reply

    Sylvia,

    “They raped beautiful girls
    They left ugly behind”

    I am confused..Which one  left  Anatolia ? Ugly or beautiful…?

    Avery ,

    Since Armenian population and country is so small, best: Armenians join Turkey.

    New name : HAYTURK ..   How is this ?

  99. Necati:    Does it come as surprise to you that one of atrocities that barbarian Ottoman Turks employed during the Armenian genocide was mass rapes? Are you feeling proud of being a particle of such a savage nation? Beautiful girls: of Greek, Armenian, Assyrian, Slav origin were sold to Turkish harems in an attempt to ennoble your Mongoloid race. Is this a surprise to you?
     
    Sedentary Armenians were once colonized by the new-comer Turks as part of the Ottoman Empire and guess what end they faced in 1915? Do you want more blood?
     
    HayTurk , in case you were serious, would be below our national dignity: a nation that has a 4000+ year old history and contributions to human civilization in many spheres cannot by definition join descendents of destructive nomads who appeared on the map only in 11-13th centuries AD as a result of invasion.

  100. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 1, 2011 at 2:41 pm // Reply

    Just recently I heard a story from Muslim Egyptian Lady…She is a history teacher…Her grandfather was Sheik Al-Azhar…She heard that next week Erdugan is coming to Egypt…and she gave so many stories about Ottomans’ rule in Egypt…
    Many Egyptian they tell me that their grandmothers are Turkish…This lady told me …they were not Turkish they use to snatch beautiful christian girls in Turkey and bring them to Egypt and sell them to rich people…They use to call them they are pasha’s daughters…I wander which Pasha will give his daughter to Egyptians…or Arabs…
    I have very close Egyptian friend (M.G), she always says my grandmother was Turkish…I always tell her you look Armenian…If she allows me to send her photo any Armenian will see her… she will tell she looks Armenian.
    I am going to send this letter to her and see her response…!

    I know a minister of Health in an Arab state has very beautiful, nice wife…everyone tells she is the daughter of a Pasha…now I wonder…!!!

    More stories to come…

    Sylva

  101. Gor answered to your HyeTurk recommendation Necati.
    Thanks Gor, took the words right out of my mouth.

    And if your Invading ancestors had not murdered 2 million of our people, there would be 30-40 million Armenians in Western Armenia  today, millions of Greeks and Assyrians, and maybe 20 million Seljuk Turks.

  102. avatar Monastras // July 2, 2011 at 3:16 pm // Reply

    Avery

    It is amazing to see how you produce 30-40 millions of people out of 2 millions. 2 millions are already not an accurate figure. Lets imagine it is correct for a moment, You must still be way behind this figure. Check your math mate. Just a small clue for you, Turkey’s population was 14-15 millions around 1915. Now it is just over 70 millions. More over, You advanced Armenians was going to discover how to reduce the number of children long before turks so your case dismissed.

    Sylva
    I think that n the arab world some people claim that they have turkish heritage is because it might indicate that they are from upper class since the turks ruled the region for centuries. Some of them also maybe correct as the ottoman officials might have been encouraged to get married to the local population for political purposes. Another factor is that the enemies of Ottomans were also a different group of Turks which called mamluk in Egypt. Mamluk dynesty is also known as Turkish but the Ottomans couldn’t wipe out that group from the manahement fro centuries until Mehmet ali came to power.
    He invated all mamluk prens to a feast after the feast they were all shot dead. It has nothing to do with Armenians. Please do not believe that these legands in the Armenian community has present any reality. Most of the time time basic facts are twisted unfortunately. I think that this is an ME culture.

  103. Monastras:   

    re. “agree2 millions are already not an accurate figure”

    Most of international genocide scholars, historians, and demographers agree that by the year of Turkish genocide of Armenians in 1915 population of Western (Ottoman) Armenians was up to or around 2 million people. Some sources put higher number: up to 2.5 million people.

    First massacres of the Armenians occurred even earlier: under “Great Assasin”, as the world came to him, Sultan Abdul Hamid. Then, some 200,000 up to 300,000 Armenians have been savagely murdered Turkish way. Then came massacres of Armenians in Adana, around 30,000 Armenians were slaughtered. So, do some 2-grade math, “mate”, if you can, and calculate roughly how many fold would the Armenians population increased in the course of 96 year had your ancestors not committed genocide of the nation.
     
    Re. “turks ruled the region for centuries”

    Ask Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Alawis, Kurds, Arabs, and Balkan Slavs and you’ll discover for yourself and other brainwashed Turks that Turks did not actually “ruled” the region. They colonized the region, stole the region’s language, culture, and ultimately exterminated all the ancient nations living in it in the most barbarian way. If I were a Turk (God forbid!), I’d be ashamed of such an “accomplishment”.

  104. Monastras:
    Part1.
    BACKGROUND INFO
     
    In 1960 Population growth rate:
    Armenia SSR: 3.6% [NOTE that Armenians, when left alone and secure, will naturally grow at a very high rate]
    Turkey: 2.7%
     
     
    In 1970 Population growth rate:
    Armenia SSR: 2.7% [Still growing at a very good clip]
    Turkey: 2.6%
     
     
    In 1987 Population growth rate:
    Armenia SSR: 1.8% (just prior to dissolution of USSR) [Political, financial turmoil reduced the rate]
    Turkey: 1.8%
     
     
    In 2009 Population growth rate:
    Armenia : 0.2% [Earthquake, War, massive disruption of social order, economy and sense of security]
    Turkey: 1.2%
     
     
    Turkey’s  population growth of about 1% is the number for the whole country.
    Estimate for Turkey’s population for 2010 is about 70 million.
    Kurds (and presumably Zaza) estimate their rate of growth at about 3%+
    It is probably between 2%-3%.
    Since the rate for the entire country is about 1%, the rate of growth for non-Kurd and non-Zaza, i.e. ‘Turks’, would be less than 1% : about 0.4-0.5%, given the proportions of populations and respective growth rates.
     
     
    My Seljuk Turk guesstimate of 20 million was based on this: had not the Seljuk Turks exterminated the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians – i.e. had simply coexisted with them  – their natural growth would be about that. Out of a population of 70M you have to subtract about 25M-30M Kurds and Zaza. Next, you have to subtract the forcibly abducted several hundred thousand  Armenian young women and girls, who instead of contributing to the growth of Armenians, forcibly  contributed to the  growth of Turks: without the Armenian women, Turk numbers would be naturally reduced, because you’d have a far smaller female base. Could Seljuk Turk estimate  be 25M, or 30M ? Sure, but I am in the ballpark.
     

  105. Monastras:
    Part2.
    ESTIMATES
     
    Armenians in Ottoman Turkey:
    Official Ottoman Census 1914: 1.2M
    Armenian Patriarchate 1914: 1.9M
    In 1913, Krikor Zohrab, writing under the pen name, Marcel Leart gave the Patriarchate figure for Year 1882 as 2,660,000 Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
     
     
     
    OK, now we run some numbers.
    (the tools are available on the net: you can do the same, mate)
     
     
    Start Year 1895 (just prior to Hamidian massacres)
    Base: 2,000,000 Armenians
    Growth rate 1.5%: End Year 2010: 11M
    Growth rate 2.0%: End Year 2010: 19M
    Growth rate 2.5%: End Year 2010: 34M
    Growth rate 3.0%: End Year 2010: 59M
     
    Start Year 1882
    Base: 2,600,000 Armenians
    Growth rate 1.5%: End Year 2010:   17M
    Growth rate 2.0%: End Year 2010:   33M
    Growth rate 2.5%: End Year 2010:   61M
    Growth rate 3.0%: End Year 2010: 114M
     
     
    I’ll run the numbers with an  artificially low base – just for you, Monastras.
     
    Start Year 1895 (just prior to Hamidian massacres)
    Base: 1,000,000 Armenians [unrealistic base]
    Growth rate 1.5%: End Year 2010: 5.5M
    Growth rate 2.0%: End Year 2010: 9.7M
    Growth rate 2.5%: End Year 2010: 17M
    Growth rate 3.0%: End Year 2010: 29M
     
     
    Of course population rate of growth would gradually drop, i.e. 3%, then 2.5%, then 2%, then 1.5% etc as population grows.
    But as you can see 30M-40M is not amazing at all: in fact it is rather conservative.
    Over to you Counselor (…or should I call you ‘Judge’, since you took upon yourself to dismiss my case ?)
     

  106. Monastras:
    Part3
    PAYBACK
     
    The 2 million that were murdered by the Turks, if allowed to reproduce naturally, would be about 30-40 Million Armenians in Western Armenia today: we Armenians are not going to forget that. Not only will you pay for the 2 million murdered, but the unborn brothers and sisters your Seljuk Turk, Ottoman, and CUP predecessors  took from us. You Turks owe us that many lives.
     

  107. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 3, 2011 at 6:20 am // Reply

    Wipe out…Very respectful word…from Turkish friend
    People are born to be wiped out…
    Dr. Astarjian knowns about Al-Jamali family in Iraq the most respected
    This story from wikipedia shocked me…see Mamluk in wikipedia

    Mamluk…Badr Al-Jamali of Armenian origin

    After the fragmentation of the Abbasid Empire, military slaves, known as either mamluks or ghilman, became the basis of military power throughout the Islamic world. The Fatimids of Egypt bought Armenian, Turkic and Sudanese slaves, who formed the bulk of their military and often their administration.[6] The powerful vizier Badr al-Jamali, for example, was a mamluk of Armenian origin. In Iran and Iraq, the Buyids used Turkic slaves throughout their empire, such as the rebel al-Basasiri who eventually ushered in Saljuq rule in Baghdad after attempting a failed rebellion. When the later Abbasids regained military control over Iraq, they also relied on military slaves called ghilman.[7]
    Under Saladin and the Ayyubids of Egypt, the power of the mamluks increased until they claimed the sultanate in 1250, ruling as the Mamluk Sultanate. Military slavery continued to be employed throughout the Islamic world until the 19th century. The Ottoman Empire‘s devşirme, or “gathering” of young slaves for the Janissary corps, lasted until the 17th century, while mamluk-based regimes thrived in such Ottoman provinces as Iraq and Egypt into the 19th century.

  108. Despite the fact that those who arrived in Anatolia as conquerors and invaders a thousand years ago, most of our ancestors worked very hard WITH them to build their new civilization. The Seljuk and Ottomans built their empires largely on what had already been destroyed by the Greeks and other Christian invaders. For instance, Constantinople had been burned to the ground by the Crusaders. You all seem to forget that the Armenians of that time were frequently abused by the Byzantines and their leaders dragged in chains thru Constantinople for various ‘crimes’, some of which were religion- based.  While there is no disputing that we had been conquered, which was somewhat standard in Armenian history, as our feudal nakharars and ishkhans had little power of their own, there was a positive outcome to having an umbrella of Turkish military power: that positive was stability and protection, both politically and economically.

    We all know that the conquerors, whoever they might have been, had few skills related to settled life….and arrived to see flourishing cities and towns that were thousands of years old, with architecture, vineyards, crops, etc. The settled peoples also had technology, of metalwork, ceramics, jewelry, textiles, music, medicine and science that had accumulated over many millenia. Rather than destroying this, the conquerors recognized their value and encouraged them to continue working on their behalf.

    This is why most of the mosques, turbes, bridges, hamams, fountains and aquaducts were designed and built by Armenian architects and stonemasons. None of the invaders had a clue about how to build a building, so they hired Armenians as subcontractors to build some of the most magnificent structures ever seen…and most are still standing and in use!  They also married their daughters and lived in palaces designed and built by the fathers of those girls. To me, this shows that they valued Armenian talent in the highest way possible. And, rather than seeing their stewardship in a negative light, there was alot to be said for living under the protection of such a mighty military force, especially in an era when wars between empires was the norm.

    In the recent era, despite its serious flaws, living under the wing of the USSR certainly had some major benefits for Armenia, particularly in the economic sphere. Now that it’s gone – after 80 years – Armenia is suffering. Think of how much good came out of 600 years of Ottoman rule, especially in an era (15th – 19th C), when most people on earth were living as serfs or slaves. Armenians were neither…they were making huge contributions to Ottoman society and being rewarded for them.  You need to remember, Armenian society flourished under Ottoman rule – much more so than under either Russian or Persian rule.  It’s very easy these days to forget the benefits that came to us thru that system, and to focus on the negatives that developed at the end of the empire, such as high taxes….but, find a place on earth w/ no taxes, and you’ll also find no services whatsoever.  And no, I’m not forgetting the genocide…but, will also remind you that the genocide was not hatched or carried out by the Ottomans…it was done by those who were anti-Ottoman. Think about it seriously for a just a moment and you’ll see that there was a major qualitative difference between the CUP thugs who overthrew the sultan and what came before.  There is no comparison at all.  

       

  109. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 3, 2011 at 9:22 am // Reply

    Avery

    I like your statistics
    You should send it to United Nation…
    To let them know
    How many artful Armenian souls we slayed.

    Statistics are the basis of everything
    You can’t produce any results in any scientific field
    Without honest statistics…

    In every Armenian Church
    We have statistics
    Birthdate and death-date…
    Since many centuries…

    Ask any Turk
    Does he know his birth-date…?
    I wonder if…

    New generations of every race
    Are not illiterate
    All soon will appear…
    Through Statistics

    Wanting to do their DNA…
    To know their origin
    From where they appeared…
    They were Turkified
    Losing their real identity
    Since mimar Sinan…
    Till lawyer Fathia Cetin

    Sylva-MD-Poetry

  110. Yes, the Turkish leadership of the CUP were not the simple sultan currying servants of before, who wanted to keep the Armenians in line but benefit from them (note that all Sultans had Christians as mothers given the composition of the harem).  Instead, they were fascits of the first degree when fascism was the ‘in’ thing in Europe.  Reading works from Europe and the Middle east from that era, it is easy to see the gross stereotypes of all the ethnic groups.  Diversity was not celebrated, it was hated in nearly all the countries of the time, except maybe the U.S. partially.  This was a time when the US population, particularly in the South, would have supported a deportation of all the black people to a different counnry in a heartbeat.  Therefore, it is not hard to see how the average illiterate uneducated Kurd or Turk would react if they heard that the intelligent and well financed Armenians were arming.  The leadership was no worse than the Sultan, who killed 300,000 Armenians after a bank robbery and whose mother was an Armenian.  The leadership thought they were the good guys and the Armenians were all evil;  similarly, Hitler used the propaganda that all the Jews (even the infants) were involved in ‘stabbing’ Germany in the back during WW I, even though they were a great part of the economy and would not stand to benefit if their businesses and homes were destroyed.  

    The sad part is that the education of the average Turk has not improved; in fact, it has progressively gotten worse until the evolution of the internet.  The coverup had to be a massive one, the most massive ever, since human society was becoming more ‘civilized’  Sure Genghis khan performed genocide as a hobby and everyone loved him for it (the survivors any way) but in the early 1900s the story had changed and people were thinking of grandiose thoughts like freedom, equality, etc.. and maybe some people believed it for a day or so until reality kicked in.  From the Turkish point of view, their actions were great.  They had to destroy the Armenian population since any chance of loss would result in an independant Armenia UNLESS they had no population.  Given that the losses in the war would be massive in general (50-60%), they had to make sure Armenian losses were even greater (90%).  A few survived, since the Turks were not as efficient as hoped and some Armenians had the novel idea to defend themselves (traitors).  It is considered the act of a loyal citizen to die for your leader upon request.  Refusing to die or be raped or be converted is grounds for being labeled a traitor and being killed any way!

  111. For reconcilation to occur, the Turks must see some benefit from accepting the truth.  Indeed, if your grandfather robbed a bank and gave you a million dollars when you were newly born, would you then turn him into the jail and label him a thief and refuse the million dollars.  Human nature says no – which is why they can ‘feel’ our pain but that is all :) 

    Similarly, we can feel the pain of Azerbaijan for any civilian losses and property losses and land losses and we can set up a commision to fnd out what happened but the facts are clear – the Armenians won and took over the land.  The same thing is what happened in the Ottoman Empire, Turkey – they used inhumane and criminal methods to kill off the population and take over the land and the won and keep the land by unspoken human rules since only Israel and Armenia are supposed to repent war gains and give back the land (same as Turkey did).  In fact, if Armenians weren’t able to mount a last minute defense and found a republic, there would be no Armenia today for sure – founding a republic gave the USSR a slight pretense to keeping an Armenian SSR but they weren’t too happy about it as they punished the Armenians for being ?? by giving away Nakhichevan and Artsakh (maybe they were feeling a little guilty at massacring the Muslims themselves for hundreds of years)?  

    Anyway,  the land Armenia won should be annexed to Armenia proper but can be exchanged for a port on the sea and  land bridge or a lease equivalent.  That is what will happen in the end and it will come quickly as some grand bargain will be struck when the time is right, probably when IRan gets a nuclear bomb. 

    So, the Armenian genocide (or the systematic extermination of the Armenians in the Ottaman Empire) if that sounds better, is the truth!  Given that if we said that the Turks committed genocide against the Eskimos, no one would believe it, but why would people believe the Armenians if it was false, given that we are a country of 2-3 million with no resources and the Diaspora seems headed for assimilation – so why would any country not take Turkey’s side – I know why, because the truth is so overwhelming.  Similarly, no one believes Saddam had weapons of mass destruction even though Iraq is destroyed now and the US is extremely powerful, because the truth is so obvious. 

    Ask yourself this:  Would you, as a Turk, approve of the following headlines:

    “US Decides to deport all Iraqis in Baghdad to Saudi Arabia effective in 2 days, on foot, in the summer given the recent insurgent attacks which have killed .1% of the American Army”

    or

    “Israel decides to deport all Palestenians, regardless of age (or relocate them), given  the recent suicide bombing destroying a bank and several dozen Jews.  This will take place immediately and occur on foot.   Men are exempt as they will be working on the train underground through the Meditteranean”

    If you, as a Turk, would NOT approve of those measures, which would be great under the CUP, since the insurgents and the Palesenians are ‘traitors’ and ‘rebels’ against their just masters, why would you approve of the ‘relocation’ of Armenian infants, women, and elderly people due to the ‘insurgency’ of a few hundred Armenian males?

  112. Though clashing primarily
    with the forces of foreign elites that had now established themselves on
    Armenian lands the main, but not sole, victims of the Tatar invasions were
    Armenian people of no property, peasants, artisans and town dwellers. Upon them
    marauding Tatar troops descended `like locusts upon the fields, mountains,
    valleys…’ (p172) They came with such a terrifying force that it was `as if
    the land had been engulfed by a flood’ (p172). `Heartrending catastrophes’ and
    `tragic mourning’ could be witnessed and heard by all:

    `…(O)ne could see how the sword mercilessly cut down men and women, the young
    and the infant, the old and the infirm, the bishops and the priests, the alter
    boy and the secretary. Babies at the breast were hurled against rocks and
    beautiful young women were raped or abducted…. (The Tatars) resorted to
    killing as if they were going to a wedding or a feast… The entire land was
    filled with corpses and there was none to bury them. The tears of loved ones
    had dried up and there was none left to mourn them. (p173)’

    Death and destruction was visited upon Dumanis, Shamshoulta, Tbilisi, Garin,
    Yerzenga and Sebastia. With `greed that was never satisfied’ (p173) Tatar
    horsemen went about the `pillage of scores of provinces seizing gold and
    silver, precious clothing, camels, mules, horses and countless cattle’ (p202).
    The land was `plundered…and reduced to rubble’ and its population `enslaved’
    (p182-183). Attracted by `plentiful treasure’, soldiers `mercilessly
    slaughtered the men, women and children’ of Lori, `destroying property and
    belongings.’ In Ani `they seized all they could find, robbed the Churches,
    wreaked destruction across the city…and… annihilated its glory…’

    Conquest and plunder were executed with invincible military skill and
    technology. Mounted on `sprinting horses that never tired’ (p174), Tatar
    soldiers rained `floods of arrows’ upon the towns whose defences they were
    `battering down’ with `the aid of numerous machines’. Fearless fighters, they
    were led by generals of `profound wisdom’ who would `allocate forces wisely’
    making particular point `of dispersing’ the many non-Tatar troops in their
    armies so as to `avoid (possible) treachery (p202)’. Among such troops were
    Armenians too, some perhaps seeking their fortune, others forced into service
    to repay debts or just driven to earn their bread and butter having been pushed
    off their lands.

    Powerful descriptions give an idea of the scale and the violence of the Tatar
    invasion as a result of which tens of thousands fled the country, mainly for
    Cilicia that was as a result:

    `…flooded with masses of unskilled and skilled men, men who had gathered from
    all corners of the north east (ie Armenia), fleeing from the land that had been
    destroyed by the Tatar onslaught.’ (p140)

    As Armenians abandoned their ancestral homelands, foreign settlers, among them
    Tatars who were accompanied by `entire families’, occupied these (p170). While
    Armenian emigration to Cilicia was to provide the social foundation for the
    Armenian Cilician monarchy, it was to critically accelerate the transformation
    of Armenia from a territory overwhelmingly Armenian to a multiethnic unit, a
    process that had begun during the Arab occupation.

    For Armenians that remained, the Tatars harboured long term designs for their
    steady and intensive exploitation. Secure in control the Tatar leadership:

    `… instructed the remnants, those who had escaped the sword and slavery, to
    return to their homes, their villages and towns and to begin rebuilding these
    for the benefit (the Tatars)…Thus the land began to slowly flourish. (p188)

    These `remnants’, `almost naked and hungry’ were subjected to a regime of
    taxation that `impoverished all and filled the land with howls and woes’.
    `Vicious officials’ `year in year out demanded’ impossible levels of tax (p261)
    irrespective of the population’s ability to pay. It needs to be noted that such
    taxation was indiscriminate and levied `from Persians, Arabs, Turks, Armenians,
    Georgians and Alans’ and so brought `all (these) nations’ `to death’s doors’.

    THE ABOVE is from the `History Of The Armenians’,
    Giragos Gantzagetzi (352pp, University Of Yerevan, 1982, Armenia), Eddie Arnavoudian,
    July 27, 2009

    Review.  Note that the Mongolians or ‘Tatars’ did not come with thoughts of democracy, love, or flowers but their trademark rape, murder, pillage, medieval style.  I doubt that the ‘terrible’ Byzantines did that on a daily basis in lands they already controlled!

  113. Armen K.:

    re.  “Similarly, we can feel the pain of Azerbaijan for any civilian losses and property losses and land losses and we can set up a commission to find out what happened but the facts are clear – the Armenians won and took over the land.”

    What happened in Artsakh and in Western Armenia from the viewpoint of perpetrators is not similar. In Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) Armenians took over the lands that were theirs and never the Azeris’. Whereas in the Ottoman empire Turks took over the lands that were never theirs historically or culturally, but Armenians’.

  114. Somebody is still trying to create a nonexistent, false paradise for Armenians that supposedly existed under the Ottoman Turk rule.
    Apparently the Hamidian massacres did not happen.
    Apparently the Adana massacre did not happen.
    Hundreds of other smaller, routine massacres did not happen.
    Apparently Russians, Iranians, other Christians were just as bad as Turks: or maybe even worse.
    All invaders are the same in somebody’s imagination: apparently invaders who rule and then depart are the same as those that exterminate the indigenous population – by design – and then stay.
    Armenians were apparently flourishing under the benign, enlightened rule of the Ottoman Turks.
    All that changed when those really smart, but really evil people from Salonika (hint, hint – smart & evil: must be the Jews), a few thousand of them, took over the whole country and managed to convince the Turks to exterminate the Armenians.

    It was not the fault of the Turks, you see: if we forget what happened in 1915, we can live happily ever after with our peaceful, friendly Turk ‘brothers’.

  115. well said Gor.

    Armenian posters, in particular, need to take care so as not to make inadvertent false analogies – while attempting to appear ‘fair’. 
    Armenians of Artsakh peacefully petitioned to separate from Azerbaijan SSR, as per USSR Constitution.  In response, Azeris started killing Armenian civilians in Sumgait and Baku. Next came the naked attempt by Azeri’s Military – tanks, artillery, jet bombers, GRADs –  to exterminate and ethnically cleanse Armenians from Artsakh.

    The situation of Azeri civilians who had to leave their homes is sad. But those areas are historic Armenian lands. Original Armenian inhabitants were previously cleansed out by invaders: Azeris living there were living on somebody else’s property. Unlawful Detainer.

    Armenians did not start the bloodshed: we have nothing to apologize for.
    We have been exterminated enough: we have no more to give.
    BTW: Nakichevan was majority Armenian. Now it’s 0% Armenian. Same thing would have happened in Artsakh – if Azeris had won.

  116. “Despite the fact that those who arrived in Anatolia as conquerors and invaders a thousand years ago, most of our ancestors worked very hard WITH them to build their new civilization.”

     
    —-Our ancestors have been victims of an invasion, conquer and a consequent colonization. A way to survive was working with the colonizers. It was not a voluntary choice.

     
    “The Seljuk and Ottomans built their empires largely on what had already been destroyed by the Greeks and other Christian invaders.”

     
    —-Whatever was destroyed by Byzantine Greeks was mostly within their territorial domain. Most of the Western part of modern-day Turkey was the domain of the Byzantium. Armenians were sometimes abused by the Byzantines, but they had never been wiped out as a nation, as under the Turks.

     
    “There was a positive outcome to having an umbrella of Turkish military power: that positive was stability and protection, both politically and economically.”

     
    —-Stability? If a life on native lands as rightless millet is considered stability, then it’d be safe to say that slaves in the Roman Empire had stability too. After all, they were fed and after a period of obedient service, could be set free. Protection? Millet by definition had no legal protection. Witness accounts of Armenians or other Christians in the Ottoman Empire were disregarded in the courts. Their villages constantly pillaged, destroyed, their population abducted and killed, their basic civil rights abused. Politically? The millet was not allowed to represent itself in the government or any local administrations. Economically? The millet could only run small and medium-size businesses for the purpose of enrichment of the Turkish empire as they were paying unbearably higher taxes than Muslims. Most of the Ottoman Armenians, especially those living in the rural areas, were economically poor beyond measure.

     
    “None of the [Seljuk, Ottoman] invaders had a clue about how to build a building, so they hired Armenians as subcontractors to build some of the most magnificent structures ever seen…and most are still standing and in use! They also married their daughters and lived in palaces designed and built by the fathers of those girls. To me, this shows that they valued Armenian talent in the highest way possible.”

     
    —-Sure. Why wouldn’t a barbarian nomad originally from the steppes of Mongolia ennoble their Mongoloid race by marrying females representing more civilizationally advanced peoples? Valued Armenian talent in the highest way possible? Who wouldn’t they value the talent, if it was made to serve colonizers’ interests? The highest way possible for valuing the Armenians by Turks was their total physical annihilation at the end.

     
    “In an era (15th – 19th C), when most people on earth were living as serfs or slaves, Armenians were neither…”

     
    —-Millet is recognized to be a variation of serfdom or slavery, albeit with certain rights, such as restricted practice of religion and the use of national language.

     
    “Armenian society flourished under Ottoman rule – much more so than under either Russian or Persian rule.”

     
    —-Any Armenian whose ancestors lived in Russian Armenia or who lived during the Soviet times would laugh profusely at such a statement, given the fact that in no period of Armenian history that was under a foreign rule, had Armenians progressed more than under the Russian imperial or Russian Soviet times. To compare the scientific, technological, military, artistic, medical, and economic progress of Armenians under the Russians (both imperial and Soviet) and their millet existence under the Ottoman Turks is inflammatory, to say the least.

     

     
    “The genocide was not hatched or carried out by the Ottomans… it was done by those who were anti-Ottoman. There was a major qualitative difference between the CUP thugs who overthrew the sultan and what came before.”

     
    —-Was the Young Turk government not representing the Ottoman state? Was Ottomanism not the official ideology of the state at the time of CUP? How then were the CUP “anti-Ottoman”? Were the massacres of 300,000 Armenians not carried out in 1894-96 by the Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid “Great Assassin” II? Was the 1909 Adana massacre not carried out by the Ottoman Sultan? Did these instances of Turkish barbarism not take place before the CUP thugs came to power? Were not most of the CUP leaders, local administrators, village administrators, army commanders, soldiers, gendarmes, the chettes, non-regulars, ordinary mutilators, torturers, looters, thieves, and rapists ethnically Ottoman Turks during in 1915 up until the creation of their Republic in 1923 when no Armenian remained?

  117. avatar Monastras // July 3, 2011 at 2:01 pm // Reply

    Please note that I am not here to make anti Armenian comments. If my comments clash with yourself, This is not because I am anti Armenian, This is what I believe based on my experience and knowledge. I am also not here to oppose any view that the turkish government doesn’t like it. I do not care if the Turkish government like it it or not. I can easyl be convinced when I see the facts.However, I have to question everything I encounter as everybody should do the same.

    Avery,
    Ottoman official census shows 1.3M 

    Armenian Patriarchate  1.9M 

    Richard Hovanisian      1.7M

    We can conclude that the figure wasn’t more than 1.5 M as we have to ignore 1.9M for the obvious reason.

    The population was 15M in 1914 and the Armenian population was around 1.5M which means roughly %10 of the whole population. Based on this information, the Armenian population wasn’t going to exceed 7M in Turkey. It was most probably going to be less than this figure as the Turkish birth rate must be higher. Again, This is a simple fact that can not be altered. Therefore either your calculation or the turkey’s population must be wrong

    Armen K.
    I am quite happy to answer all the questions you raise however, the editor doesn’t post certain comments for some reason therefore we are unable to discuss the problems properly.If I put some thought here.I risk losing my whole comment.
    ——————————————————–
    I think If we exclude the 19. century from the Turko-Armo relationship, We could have told a love story over 900 years. I am not saying Turks are angels but again blaming others are just an ME culture. Amin Maulof says after 60 years turks were gone we were still blaming turks for our backwardness. Fortunately blaming others aren’t popular in Turkey.

  118. like I said Monastras - population calculators and the growth rates, etc are publicly available on the net. Including the Armenian SSR and Turkey population growth rates.
    Plug in the numbers and see what results you get.

    “…This is a simple fact…”
    Nope, not a fact – just your opinion. Since my numbers do not agree with what you have fixed in your mind, you have no choice but to ignore it. 

    “However, I have to question everything I encounter as everybody should do the same.”
    You question EVERYTHING ? or just the things that do not fit your Turk-centric view of the world. 

    On Anti-Armenianism: I don’t believe anyone here expects Turks to agree with us – I surely don’t. For example, the fact that you disagree with my numbers above is just that – disagreement.
    I don’t consider that Anti-Armenian, or Anti-anything.
    I believe I am right; you believe you are right. I think  my case is more solid, but of course I am biased towards my own results.

    However, if someone claims that the AG did not happen, I consider that Anti-Armenian, same as if someone said the  Jewish  Holocaust did not happen: no one would be surprised if the Denier was called Anti-Semitic. When Azeris come here and claim that Sumgait (1988)  did not happen, Baku (1990)  did not happen, and that Armenians attacked Azeris first – I consider that Anti-Armenian disinformation.
     

  119. Monastras:
     
    re. “I am not here to make anti-Armenian comments.”
     
    Certainly, sheer anti-Armenianism would be too explicit and inflexible way of advancing Turkish propagandistic crap on these pages. That’s why tacit, sugar-coated mind-tilting à la Turka by posting counterarguments is viewed as a more effective attempt. Ain’t gonna work. Armenians know Turkish mentality and your all-national slyness too well.
     
    re. “This is what I believe based on my experience and knowledge.”
     
    What experience, can you share? Do you have experience working in German, Austrian, British, American, Russian, Swedish, Greek, Norwegian archives to familiarize yourself with what documents the world-renowned repositories say about the premeditated Turkish mass slaughter of the millions of Armenians? Do you knowledge of old Turkish script to familiarize yourself what your own national archives say about the period of 1894-1896 (Hamidian massacres) and the 1919-20 Turkish Courts Martial that condemned the perpetrators of the genocide to death? What knowledge other than Turkish fabricated history and brainwashing government anti-Armenians propaganda do you have? Have you ever read witness accounts of the European, American, Russian, and Arab diplomats, missionaries, generals, soldiers, and humanitarians about what Turks have done to Armenians in the course of 1915-1923? Maybe you have knowledge about what could possible happen to round 2 million Armenians living on their native lands mostly in eastern parts of the Ottoman Empire? I’d be interested to know where do you think roughly 2 million people have evaporated?  Curiously.

  120. Monastras:

    That’s an uncommon name (at least as Turk posters go).
    Somebody posted something regarding the AG @ HurriyetDailyNews mid May 2011, in the ‘Reader Comments’ section.

    That was you, was it not ?

  121. Various figures for the number of Western (Ottoman) Armenians in pre-genocide time:
     
    By U.S. National Geographic page 61, July 1918: 2 million (Total Ottoman Empire population 18 million)
     
    By Eleftherios Venizelos, prime-minister of Greece in 1910-1920 at the Paris Peace Conference in December 30, 1918: 2,100,000
     
    By Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919: 2,250,000
     
    German official figures representing the Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire: 2 million.
     
    By Arnold Toynbee, the British co-author of the Blue Book on the treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire: the real number of Ottoman Armenians is probably closer to 2 million for Anatolia alone.
     
    The problem with such figures is that they do not cover the same regions. For instance, in many instances “Anatolia” is equaled with the Ottoman empire. Other times there are partial statistics representing one region, like Turkish Armenia, Ottoman Armenia, Asiatic Turkey, Anatolia, Ottoman Empire, 6 Armenian vilayets, 9 Armenian vilayets, etc.
     
    It is, therefore, safe to conclude that, on average, given the Turkish tendency to present lesser numbers of Armenians or any other non-Turk populations in the Ottoman empire, their number was around 2 million people.

  122. Putting aside the absurdity of discussing and judging events of 1000 and 2000 years ago, which I realize in this mythical realm is the norm, just look at this gem produced by one of the “celebrated” editors here:

    Whatever was destroyed by Byzantine Greeks was mostly within their territorial domain.

    For people who live in deep history, one would expect a little bit more accuracy.  I realize it may be too much from folks allergic to facts of most kind.

    It was one of the more reasonable attempts by Karakin to inject some maturity and reality into the discourse, but she (right?) should have known better. 

    Even she gets off the trail of logic and reason at times with this Jewish conspiracy theory.
    Simpler and more obvious explanations (not necessarily excuses) look all in the face in the form of the state of the Sick Man of Europe on the eve of WWI, British and Russian ambitions Ottomans could not contain anymore, the relentless manipulation of minority issues, the lessons and consequences of War of’93 (1878), the organized efforts of Armenian seperatist groups and their brutality and obvious aims, the condition of the Ottoman people and armies fighting on multiple fronts for their very existence…  do we really need a Zionist conspiracy theory on top of all this?

  123. So, would you have preferred the Spanish/English/Portugese model used in the New World during the same time of the Ottoman conquest?  Within 100 years of the European arrival, more than 90% of the native population of the Americas was decimated. Is that preferable to what happened to the Armenians?  I don’t think so. What you all seem to forget, rather conveniently, is that IF Armenians could have defended themselves and their lands properly…we wouldn’t even be having this discussion, would we?  IF Armenians had been able to withstand the Greeks, the Arabs, the Turks…they never would have been conquered in the first place. Now, you can rehash all the history you want, in whatever detail you want, but facts are facts. No one is sugar coating anything here. History was brutal…get used to it folks. And, if your view of history is so unshakable, then please tell me how and why our hold on another historic piece of ancient Armenia is so fragile, that of Karabagh?  This is happening right here, right now…it is not ancient history, yet after 80 years, it still has not been reunited with today’s Armenia. So, please fight today’s battles and win them….what’s lost is lost, so let’s try our best to keep what we have.

  124. Murat:    Please, don’t play a smart a**, will you? It’s cheap and so characteristic of narrow-minded Turkish mentality of yours. Re-read the whole paragraph in Karekin’s post: “The Seljuk and Ottomans built their empires largely on what had already been destroyed by the Greeks and other Christian invaders. For instance, Constantinople had been burned to the ground by the Crusaders.” To which my comment, which you effectively took out of the context for the convenience of your counterargument, referred to: “Whatever was destroyed by Byzantine Greeks was mostly within their territorial domain.” Meaning Constantinople that was damaged by the Crusaders was not in the steppes of Mongolia or Altay mountains where Turks originated, it was in the territorial domain of the Byzantine empire. Are you at all capable of reading from A to Z or your eyes only catch what you think might serve as a cheap counterargument? Very dull of you, indeed. But then, why would I be surprised? After all, you a one-of-the-kind Turk …

  125. We would have preferred the co-existence model that Seljuk, then Ottoman, then CUP, and then Republican Turks were reluctant to offer to more ancient, nobler, and advanced indigenous peoples of Asia Minor: Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians. This is what we would have preferred to have as a model. But Turks are Turks, and for them ethnicity, egomaniac pride, religion, and the possession of lands [of others] always played greater role that any co-existence model.
     
    Deliberate, premeditated decimation of population is not “preferable.” Either in the Americas [Never heard of 90%(?!) of the native population of the Americas decimated. Murat have you? Or you only have a jerk-knee reaction to what seems convenient for disseminating Turkish crap?] or anywhere. By any means. But then, you seem to forget—rather conveniently—that some portion of the native population of the Americas was subjected to atrocities as a result of discovery and colonization of the new world: either by the Europeans in the North or by Spanish Conquistadors in the South. Is it so hard to understand that the case of mass extermination of the Armenians is different in that Ottoman Armenians were savagely slaughtered by barbarian Turks while being citizens of the same country for centuries and by the orders of their own government? Karekin, is it so hard to grasp?
     
    Armenians could defend themselves against and their lands the hordes of nomadic Turks to the best of their abilities. What is your point here? Look at the territory that Seljuks and then Mongols and then their amalgamation: Ottoman Turks, were able to conquer as warrior nomads. If you tacitly accuse Armenians of not being able to defend themselves, what do you say about other nations who suffered Turkish invasions and mass atrocities? Greeks, Europeans? Turks sieged and captured ancient Byzantine Greek capital of Constantinople in the 15th century: go accuse the Greeks of being unable to defend themselves! Turks were at the gates of Vienna in the 16th century. Go accuse Europeans for being unable to do the same! What’s your point? “Might is Right”? Is this your point? Then why won’t the Turks shut the h*** up when Armenians re-gained their Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) territory? According to you, Azeris were unable to defend themselves, weren’t they?
     
    “History was brutal.” Duh, duh… Yes, it was. But our righteous indignation is not about the ups and downs in history. Nor is it about turning the history back. It is about THE CRIME that was committed against Armenians that needs to receive world acknowledgment and punishment for perpetrator nation-state.

  126. My point is that there were some rebel Azeris in Artsakh and  we did the proper thing (actually the vast majority survived so Armenians don’t know how to properly relocate ‘enemy’ civilians).  Since we were at war with Azerbaijan, according to the Turkic doctrine, every Azerri infant, child, woman, and grandparent is a potential militant and must be liquidated.   I would think the Turks and Azeris would have been happy at the outcome as didn’t they said the Armenian Genocide was a ‘great lesson’ for us.  We applied the lesson to Azerbaijan, and if needed, we can go to Baku as well as there are ‘rebels’ there that need to be rooted out.

  127. If history is history, why are Turks (I mean Turks, not ‘Azeri’ Tatars) bitching about Artsakh ? What’s it to them ?
    20 year ago is ancient history: let’s move on – why not ? Why do Turks bring up N-K at all ?
    How about their occupation of Northern Cyprus ?
     
     
    As to the status of Artsakh: please, ‘Karekin’, don’t insult our intelligence. Artsakh’s Armenians have never been more secure and more safe.
    The fact that that they are not united with Armenia de jure means absolutely zilch. In fact, it has many advantages.
    Artsakhtsi Warriors did not fight ancient battles: they fought and defeated a contemporary attempt to exterminate 200,000 more Armenians.
    Do you deny that ?
    And you bringing up the invasion of Americas and trying to ‘prove’  moral equivalency to what the Turks did to Armenians has been convincingly refuted before by multiple posters.
     
     
    Murat: reason you find Karekin’s posts have ‘reason and logic’ is because his (‘Karekin’ is a male Armenian name) posts are nicely and conveniently pro-Turkish. Why wouldn’t you find them ‘reasonable or logical’ ?
     
     
    And by the universal known rules of arithmetic 2011-1915=96, not 1000 or 2000. We are not discussing or judging events 1000 or 2000 years ago. AG happened 1915-1923. Although the whole Armenian nightmare did begin with the Seljuk Turk INVASION about 1000 years ago.
    95, 96, or 100 Years too much for you ? It’s OK we don’t mind. We will decide when we’ll give up: not the Turks.
     
     
    Let me tell you a little story about us: centuries ago, during the Arab invasions, a group of Armenian princes were tricked, were gathered in an Armenian church and burnt to death inside the church.
    A few years later, another Armenian noble, captured a bunch of  Arab chieftains, locked them in a Mosque – and burnt them to death.
    Before doing so, he told them what the reason was.
    So how “few years” later ? 500 years later: that’s right; this Armenian prince took revenge for what had been done to his people 500 years earlier.
    So 95 years, 100, 200, 295, 395, 495 years means nothing to us. We’ll get our justice.
    (source: Armenian historian, Doctoral Candidate  Artak Movsesyan)
     

  128. Armen K:

    I understand your sentiment, and understand what you are trying to convey.
    But it is coming out all wrong: sorry to have to say this to you, but you need to study the actual history of the Artsakh War of Survival and Liberation. 

    “We applied the lesson to Azerbaijan,”
    Please (!): there was no ‘lesson’ applied to ‘Azeris’ by Artsakh’s Armenians.
    There were no Azeri, quote, ‘rebels’. To compare Artsakh to AG is an insult, particularly coming from an Armenian.
    Armenians don’t murder unarmed civilians, and certainly not babies: end of story.
    (and yes I know all about Khojali, and what actually happened, not what Azeris claim)

    FACT: every Azeri populated village and town that was surrounded by Artsakh’s Armenian troops was surrounded on 3 sides: a safe corridor for Azeri civilians was left, ALWAYS, for Azeri civilians to leave unmolested. And yes, Khojali too.
    Here is the proof: Armenian troops surrounded and liberated dozens of villages and towns. The ONLY incident Azeris could manufacture was Khojali, where they claim 800 civilians were killed. Amnesty International says 200. 

    When Azeris bombarded Stepanakert’s civilian population with long range artillery and GRADs from Agdam, they murdered about 2,000 Armenian civilians : thousands more were wounded and maimed, including children; a war crime.  But of course 2,000 dead Armenian civilians is no big deal. But 200 or 800 Azeris killed by their own troops is a World class tragedy.

  129. @Avery – I was using ‘lesson’ in a sarcastic way.   I did not mean that there is a textbook that the Armenians read on how to deport potential 2 year old terrorists.  There are 1 million Azeri refugees apparently 17 years after the war ended.  The Turks don’t believe in refugees – that is what I meant in that we ruthlessly killed 0.2% of their civilians.  On thst basis, their is a genocide every week in the inner city in American cities.  I don’t think that the Armenians ‘relocated’ in 1915 were rebels either.  I don’t thnik Artsakh and the Armenian Genocide are related at all.  My point was thst when we were given ther chance to kill unarmed Azeris, we passed on it, even though we could have said we were ‘deporting’ them into a mass grave for their security!

    @Karekin – if the Armenians were genuinely ‘flourishing’ in all of historic Armenia (and the elite 1% in Istanbul is a minority) then the ARF was a crazy invention since the Armenians loved having no rights and being second class citizens and being a target for every random Kurd.  And who doesn’t love 500 years of forced conscription and conversion of your eldest son.  In WW2, the US relocated the Japanese but remarkbly, they all survived.  Further, Iran actually allowed the Armenains to live, and I think that the Armenians in Iran flourished since life is a prerequiste for thaat.  If you are comparing the Armenians in 1910 in Istanbul compared to the Seljuk invasion then the Armenians were doing much better since they were not being ‘liberated’ via mass murder, rapes, and theft.  My view of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire is different.  When a peaceful demonstation in Istanbul is answered with the destrucion of thousands of Armenians in response, I would say that the Portugese model is better – compare the Brazilian majority in Brazil to the Armenian minority in Diyarbekir (2 individuals) and you can see that the Ottomans were not big advocates of human rights.  It was an affront to them if you refused to be killed – when you don’t even have the right to refuse to be killed as a 67 year old Armenian grandmother, I would say that the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were not treated very well and were one step above the cannabalistic tribes in Africa. 

    But we learned an important lesson – The Turks say they loved Bedros the grocer and the Armenians in general for hundreds of years – and the ultimate expression of love is to destroy the entire Armenian population (but only men and women between the age of 1-95).  We learned that they really didn’t love us alive.  They loved our property and they loved seeing us in the deserts and they loved the Armenians so much that after 96 years they broke down and opened one church one day a year, thereby proving that the Genocide never happened since they are allowing all the Armenian population in Eastern Turkey to pray there. (which is about 10? Armenians).  Further, they are showing us how open minded they are now, in that if we push the issue of the Armenian Genocide, they will reward the Armenians in Istanbul with a new deportaton, thereby proving that Turks don’t deport people.  It is just ‘tough’ love from our loving older brother who will throw us in jail if we mention his Armenian roots.  Anyway :)

  130. Gor – here are some facts:

    Nearly all scholars now believe that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the overwhelming cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans.[23] They reject both of the earliest European immigrants’ explanations for the population decline of the American natives. The first explanation was the brutal practices of the Spanish conquistadores, as recorded by the Spanish themselves. This was applied through the encomienda which was a system to protect warring tribes as well as to teach the natives the essence of the Spanish language and the Catholic religion.[24] The most notable account was that of the Dominican friar Bartolomé de las Casas, whose writings vividly depict Spanish atrocities committed in particular against the Taínos. In typical fashion, it would take only five years for the successful Taíno rebellion to be quelled by both the Real Audiencia—through diplomatic sabotage, and through the joint-Indian forces allied and fighting with the Spanish.[25] After Emperor Charles V personally eradicated the notion of the encomienda system as a use for slave labour, there were not enough Spanish to have caused such a large population decline.[26][27] The second European explanation was a perceived divine approval, in which God removed the natives as part of His “divine plan” to make way for a new Christian civilization. Many native Americans viewed their troubles in terms of religious or supernatural causes within their own belief systems.
    Soon after Europeans and Africans began to arrive in the New World, bringing with them the infectious diseases of Europe and Africa, observers noted immense numbers of indigenous Americans began to die from these diseases. One reason this death toll was overlooked (or downplayed) is that once introduced the diseases raced ahead of European immigration in many areas. Disease killed off a sizable portion of the populations before European observations (and thus written records) were made. After the epidemics had already killed massive numbers of natives, many newer European immigrants assumed that there had always been relatively few indigenous peoples. The scope of the epidemics over the years was tremendous, killing millions of people—possibly in excess of 90% of the population in the hardest hit areas—and creating one of “the greatest human catastrophe in history, far exceeding even the disaster of the Black Death of medieval Europe”,[28] which had killed up to one-third of the people in Europe and Asia between 1347 and 1351. The Black Death occurred to a European population which also had not been exposed and had little or no resistance to a new disease.

    Given the fragmentary nature of the evidence, even semi-accurate pre-Columbian population figures are impossible to obtain. Estimates are made by extrapolations from small bits of data. In 1976, geographer William Denevan used the existing estimates to derive a “consensus count” of about 54 million people. Nonetheless, more recent estimates still range widely.[3]
    Using an estimate of approximately 30 million people in 1492 (including 15 million in the Aztec Empire and six million in the Inca Empire), the lowest estimates give a death toll due from disease of an astonishing 80% by the end of the 17th century (eight million people in 1650).[4] Latin America would only recover its 15th century population early in the 20th century; it numbered 17 million in 1800, 30 million in 1850, 61 million in 1900, 105 million in 1930, 218 million in 1960, 361 million in 1980, and 563 million in 2005.[4] In the last three decades of the 16th century, the population of present-day Mexico dropped to about one million people.[4] The Maya population is today estimated at six million, which is about the same as at the end of the 15th century, according to some estimates.[4] In what is now Brazil, the indigenous population declined from a pre-Columbian high of an estimated four million to some 300,000.
    While it is difficult to determine exactly how many Natives lived in North America before Columbus,[5] estimates range from a low of 2.1 million (Ubelaker 1976) to 7 million people to (Russell Thornton) to a high of 18 million (Dobyns 1983).[6]
    The Aboriginal population of Canada during the late 15th century is estimated to have been between 200,000[7] and two million,[8] with a figure of 500,000 currently accepted by Canada’s Royal Commission on Aboriginal Health.[9] Repeated outbreaks of European infectious diseases such as influenza, measles and smallpox (to which they had no natural immunity), combined with dispossession from European/Canadian settlements and repressive policies, resulted in a forty to eighty percent aboriginal population decrease post-contact.[7] For example, during the late 1630s, smallpox killed over half of the Wyandot (Huron), who controlled most of the early North American fur trade in what became Canada, were reduced to fewer than 10,000 people.[10]
    Historian David Henige has argued that many population figures are the result of arbitrary formulas selectively applied to numbers from unreliable historical sources. He believes this is a weakness unrecognized by several contributors to the field, and insists there is not sufficient evidence to produce population numbers that have any real meaning. He characterizes the modern trend of high estimates as “pseudo-scientific number-crunching.” Henige does not advocate a low population estimate, but argues that the scanty and unreliable nature of the evidence renders broad estimates inevitably suspect, saying “high counters” (as he calls them) have been particularly flagrant in their misuse of sources.[11] Many population studies acknowledge the inherent difficulties in producing reliable statistics, given the scarcity of hard data.
    The population debate has often had ideological underpinnings.[12] Low estimates were sometimes reflective of European notions of cultural and racial superiority. Historian Francis Jennings argued, “Scholarly wisdom long held that Indians were so inferior in mind and works that they could not possibly have created or sustained large populations.”[13] On the other hand, some have argued that contemporary estimates of a high pre-Columbian indigenous population are rooted in a bias against Western civilization and/or Christianity. Robert Royal writes that “estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with some scholars, who are particularly critical of Europe, often favoring wildly higher figures.”[14]
    Civilizations rose and fell, and indigenous peoples migrated long before Europeans arrived on the scene. The indigenous population in 1492 was not necessarily at a high point and may actually have been in decline in some areas. Fernand Braudel has pointed out a problem the Amerindian faced which was not a factor in Eurasia and Africa: “The Indian population … suffered from a demographic weakness, particularly because of the absence of any substitute animal milk. Mothers had to nurse their children until they were three or four years old. This long period of breast-feeding severely reduced female fertility and made any demographic revival precarious.”[15] Indigenous populations in most areas of the Americas reached a low point by the early 20th century

  131. “… So how “few years” later ? 500 years later: that’s right; this Armenian prince took revenge for what had been done to his people 500 years earlier. So 95 years, 100, 200, 295, 395, 495 years means nothing to us. We’ll get our justice.”

    Oh well, this explains everything!  I had thought the real barbarians came from the mountains of Altay!

  132. Karekin:   What’s the point of your comment [Gor – here are some facts] that you seem to have effectively copied and pasted from Wikipedia? Do you appreciate the difference between atrocities during the New World discovery and gextermination of Ottoman Armenian citizens by its own government?

  133. You thought right, Murat: since you mentioned it, your ancestors – Seljuk Turks from the Altai Mountains, Ottoman Turks, and then the CUP Turks were barbarians – latter 2 with the added bonus  of being  Genocidal mass murderers.
     
     
    Read my post again: princes, chieftains, kings, etc were military leaders in those days – as legitimate a target during war as it gets.
    Unlike your barbarian ancestors, those that the Armenian prince killed were not unarmed civilians, women, and children.
     
     
    The point of the story is that don’t count on the passage of time to dissipate the crime of the AG: we don’t forget those who have murdered our people. One way or another there will be payback. I am sure Turks would rather Armenians always get slaughtered, without fighting back.
     

  134. “I had thought the real barbarians came from the mountains of Altay!”   Why, Murat, isn’t this what Turks are being taught at schools about the origin of your nation?  And since this is what we all know, then who, according to you, is barbarian: an ancient sedentary people or tent-living nomadic warriors?  And what, in your view, might have happened to all those native indigenous peoples who had inhabitted the area that those nomads have invaded?  Use your head: the answer offers itself.

  135. To Armen K: my point is that too many of our writers here seem to be focused on the negative aspects of the Seljuk and Ottoman invasions/conquests. While I agree that being conquered is never a desired outcome, you really have to put it into context with what came before and what came later. If the goal of these conquerors was to obliterate the indigenous Armenians quite unlike the Spanish model of total extermination), then how come Armenians were, at the minimum, 25% of the total population of Anatolia by 1915? They had almost 1000 years to finish the job…why did it not happen?  So, why and how did Armenians maintain such a large population in the six vilayets, if they were being murdered ruthlessly every minute of every day?  There needs to be a reality check on history. Yes, we were living under the thumb of a major empire, but unlike many other empires at the time, whether it be the Russian, the Spanish, the Portugese, the British or any other, the Ottoman Empire’s millet system allowed Armenians to run their own affairs, for the most part. You may not think this was a good situation, but in comparision to how other conquered peoples were living (or dying), at that same point in history, Armenians did quite well for that millenium. My point is, when looking at history, we must compare apples with apples, not with oranges or bananas. In many ways, Ottoman Armenians lived at a much higher standard than most other people on earth – at that time – even ‘free’ peoples. Think of the enslavement the industrial revolution brought to England and Ireland, which are often held up as models. Think of what the plagues did to Europe over hundreds of years, while Armenians were largely spared that fate. Think of the filthy living conditions all across Europe, where people did not bathe regularly, and the wonderful, sophisticated hamams that Armenians had enjoyed for over 2000 years, along with the riches brought to them via the Silk Route…none of which was available in Europe at the time. Now, I will not disagree that it was not Beverly Hills, but when compared to other parts of the world, Armenians were living well, under the protection of one of the most powerful armies in the world and with an umbrella system that gave them many benefits not available elsewhere – at that time. Again, I will not disagree that it all went sour and became increasingly desperate and horrible as the empire plunged downward, resulting in the genocide, but for many hundreds of years before, we did quite well living under and as part of the Ottoman tree…because, in many ways, we were actually an important part of the tree…we gave it life, we bore fruit and produced oxygen for the empire.

     

  136. avatar Grish Begian // July 5, 2011 at 10:03 am // Reply

    Karekin,
                    Put into your head when European colonized others. their were civilized and they were well ahead of “Indian’ “aboriginal” “local” or…if “locals” didn’t fight back with European colonists they would have gained a lot from them…in our case Turks first beheaded our men raped our women, then learn civilization from us after 500 years of occupation…only 90 years ago their “shaky” civilization started after the fall of Ottomans ..still they are not civilized, they become good actors in front of EU and US politicians!!Look those Azeri Tatar Turks their closest cousin, how started pogroms against Armenians in Baku and Samgate, back 20 years ago…if Armenians were same naive “millet” of Ottoman’s Turkey, Tatar Turks would have completed their 2-nd genocide of Armenians in 21 century..you must have too many raki with your pal Necati, and yet likes to put Turks beside European civilization..did you finish  Ankara University School Of Foreign Languages in Armenian branch?? I doubt very much you are a “Karekin” …you chose an Armenian name for your selfish pro turk comments in AW………

  137. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 5, 2011 at 10:10 am // Reply

    Karekin

    If Armenians lived very well at that time
    Why they don’t allow them to live now…In this century
    Why Gul Imprisons a Journalist who said his mother was Armenian
    Why Hrant Dink and his Lawyer were killed
    Why Erdugan destroyed the Armenian-Turkish Monument in Kars
    Why they don’t put crosses on Armenian churches
    As it is present in most Arab muslim Lands…
    Why Orhan Pamuk and many ‘Honest Writers’ they left Turkey
    Why Our best 200 literates were slayed in 1915
    Did they had a gun…?
    Why Armenian till now can’t say we are Armenians…
    Why They turned Kurd Alawis and not Sinni Turks
    Why They don’t have their on T.V and radio…
    Like Arab countries, where even Indians…Philipines they have their radio time
    Why Their Churches destroyed and changed to Mosques

    Instead writing to us and expressing your views
    Go and change your people
    Put a site for you and blog and teach Turks to change and behave
    Be a real Mulla or Priest
    What ever you want to call your self
    Enough is enough
    Don’t educate us
    We know more than you know…

    My grandmother’s tears
    Isn’t dried yet
    We are not killers here
    We are real humans
    Don’t come on this site
    To eradicate our honest souls…
    We are Artful Race
    And every one knows and every where…!

    Sylva-MD-Poetry

    Written instantly

  138. Sylva-MD-Poetry:
     
    “Karekin….. Instead writing to us and expressing your views
    Go and change your people….”

    Bingo (!), Sylva. 

  139. “[…] we [Armenians] gave it life, we bore fruit and produced oxygen for the [Ottoman] empire.”   This conclusion, Karekin, answers full well the distorted arguments elsewhere in your comment. We were able to survive under the foreign colonization due to our natural wit, industriousness, and ability to adjust to oppressive regimes. The Ottoman regime that took shape out of warrior Seljuks and nomadic Mongoloids knew full well that for their new empire to endure, native peoples—Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians, as well as Arabs and Balkan Slavs—would need to give life, bear fruit, and produce oxygen, However, sly Turks gave these nations nothing commensurate with their contributions in return. They’ve made them millets, a variation of serfdom.
     
    You have a distorted view on the lives of native Armenians under the oppression of the Turks. Can you imagine a general of Armenian origin in the Turkish army? Can you imagine a minister of internal affairs (with the authorities of prime-minster at one point) in the Turkish government? Can you imagine major oil producer’s position given to an Armenian in Ottoman Turkey? Well, guess what, in imperial Russia Armenians produced dozens of brilliant generals. Count Mikael Loris-Melikov (Melikian) held a position of Imperial government’s Minister of the Interior in charge of preparation of Russia’s new Constitution. While Alexander Mantashev (Mantashian) has become Russia’s oil tycoon and one of the world’s wealthiest individuals by the end of his life. And you dare to compare this with the miserable life of Ottoman Armenians? A millet whose only right was restricted practice of religion and the use of national language at schools?
     
    You say: “The Ottoman Empire’s millet system allowed Armenians to run their own affairs, for the most part.” No, it didn’t. For the most part millets were subject to numerous restrictions, many of which of vital importance to human beings. Legal representation was excluded. Political representation was excluded. Economic affairs on low and medium-size businesses’ level were allowed, but excuse me, wouldn’t the Turks want others to work for them plus pay unbearable taxes as compared to Muslim entrepreneurs? How about the requirement for windows of Armenian houses not to overlook the Muslim houses? Or wear clothes so you could be recognized as non-Muslim? Or giving eldest sons to the Turkish army? Or not to mount horses in order not to position yourself higher than Turks? Have you ever come across such humiliating restrictions for Armenians in the Russian empire? Absurd.
     
    You pose a distorted question: “If the goal of these conquerors was to obliterate the indigenous Armenians (quite unlike the Spanish model of total extermination), then how come Armenians were, at the minimum, 25% of the total population of Anatolia by 1915?” First, I never heard of the Spanish model of total(?!) extermination. Second, as many authors explained, for nomads who invaded Asia Minor, ancient peoples represented a valuable asset that’s been used during the centuries: their culture, music, cuisine, architectural styles have been stolen to create a newly-cooked “Turkish” culture. Nomads, by historical definition, have no cultural traditions, as you may know. Throughout the Ottoman centuries, occasionally, and in the early 19th-20th centuries, aggressively, these ancient nations were gradually obliterated. Millions of Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Serbs, Arabs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Albanians, Alawis, and Kurds have been obliterated. Allow me to paraphrase the same question for you: If the goal of Turkish conquerors was not to obliterate the indigenous Armenians, where are the Armenians now? Where are Greeks, Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, Alawis?
     
    Lastly, Armenian population in the Ottoman empire by the year of genocide in 1915 was never at the minimum(?!) 25%. The 1914 Ottoman Turkish census gave 20,975,345 as the population size of the empire. Most Western scholars believe the totality of the Armenian population within the empire prior to 1915 to be around 2.1 million people. Do a simple math: 2.1 million out of roughly 21 million is 10 (ten) not 25 per cent.

  140. You stupid, ingrate Armenians. You have been brainwashed by the incessant mental manipulation of your leaders.
    Don’t you realize you were living in a veritable paradise in Ottoman Turkey ?
    Enough of your whining already.
     
     
    Some reality checks on ‘the reality checks’:
     
    “…..if they were being murdered ruthlessly every minute of every day?”
    First off, no Armenian poster here has claimed such thing.
    Slave owners do not ‘murder ruthlessly every minute of every day’.
    Romans did not murder their slaves every day: why would you buy slaves then murder them ?
    White Southerners did not murder their African slaves every day.
    Slaves work for you and create wealth for you.
    Seljuk Turks lived very well and built an empire on the backs of  Armenian  and other Christians’  wealth, creativity, hard work: why kill them every day ?
    You kill  a bunch of them on occasion to show who’s boss, but keep them alive so you can live-off of their labor.
     
     
    So why finish them off  in 1915 ? the Ottoman jig was up: all the enslaved people were revolting and throwing off the Turk yoke.
    Turks were forced back from their Westernmost conquests. The road back to Mongolian Steppes was thru Western Armenia.
    Instead of going all the way back to the Altai Mountains, why not exterminate the Armenians, take their land and stay ?
     Why not indeed.
     
     
     
    “and the wonderful, sophisticated hamams that Armenians had enjoyed for over 2000 years,”
    Seljuk Turks arrived in the Armenian Highlands c 1000 A.D. So how does 1900-1000 equal 2000 years ?
    BTW: these baths, that somehow became hamams,  were in widespread use in the Roman Empire, while Seljuk Turks were racing their horses between  their yurts on the Mongolian steppes. Of course it’s Turk SOP: you take what belongs to somebody else, slap a Turkish name on it – and now it’s Turksih.
     
     
    “we did quite well living under and as part of the Ottoman tree…”
    Except the 300-500 THOUSAND who were massacred by the ‘benevolent’ Ottoman Sultan Hamid in 1895.
    Except the 30,000  who were massacred inAdana.
     
     
    “in many ways, we were actually an important part of the tree…we gave it life, we bore fruit and produced oxygen for the empire.”
    Sounds so beautiful, doesn’t it ? so peaceful, so bucolic.
    Makes you forget all the descriptions of how Armenians were cut to pieces while alive by the Turks, babies smashed against rocks, rivers red with blood, piles of corpses,
    severed heads proudly displayed on table by Turks military officers…..

  141. A general note on Native Americans.
     
    The comparisons of what happened to Native Americans versus  Armenians has been brought up by Turks and Turkophiles  repeatedly before to dilute the significance and uniqueness of the AG,  and has been soundly and repeatedly refuted.
     
    However, to justify how  White European invaders/settlers affected the lives of Native Americans, because the former were ‘civilized’ and latter were not – is an argument that Armenians should NOT make. Nobody has the right to claim they are more civilized, or somehow superior, or have manifest destiny and take somebody else land. 

  142. “wonderful, sophisticated [Turkish] hamams” 
     
    Hammam: Originally Persian and Arabic (from حمّام) for a steam bath. Is this not an extra proof who stole from whom?

  143. Karekin, your last post is very curious.  It asks why the Turks took 1000 years to annihilate Armenians if that was their goal all along.  You make the case that despite our subjugation and second class status as a people in the Ottoman empire, we lived a fairly ‘good life’ compared to the rest of Europe, etc.  You imply that our subjugation was a benevolent scenario until the last one hundred years.  You can’t be that clueless!
    Now, I know you know why.  My question is why do you as an Armenian, go out of your way to try to convince Armenians to ‘remember the good days’ under Ottoman rule?  Why are you so uncomfortable with Armenians righteous demand for justice? Why do you try to influence Armenians to modulate their anger?  Why do you care so much more that Armenians are perceived negatively by Turks than you care that Turkey is getting away with genocide? 
    You write…   ”but for many hundreds of years before, we did quite well living under and as part of the Ottoman tree…because, in many ways, we were actually an important part of the tree…we gave it life, we bore fruit and produced oxygen for the empire.” 
    We are still feeding that tree with our shed blood, our confiscated properties and wealth, and the offspring of our moslemized and turkified daughters, one of whose descendants may be the current President of Turkey!  Why should Turkey be allowed to prosper from its crime while our countrymen struggle to build their republic right next door?

  144. avatar Grish Begian // July 5, 2011 at 6:15 pm // Reply

    TAQUN HAYER
    By YerkirmediaTV

  145. Sure, there were some positives for the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire but only for the Armenians living in Istanbul.  The rest suffered for 600 years of pure misery and I am talking about the vast majority in historical Armenia in the villages who had no rights of any sort.  I would argue that the Armenian experience for the vast majority of Armenian peasants in the villages outside of istanbul could match and exceed the worst parts of any colonization bv the European powers.  The benefit for the rulers of the Ottoman empire by the Armenians were numerous and great, but the benefit to the Armenian peasant in Dikranagerd was the permission to breathe on a daily basis.  However, if you want to consider only the wealthy Armenians in Istanbul, then I agree they had a better life than most people, which is who the Turks are referring to when they say they were ‘friends’ for 600 years.  Of course, they loved the wealthy Armenians in Istanbul whose money supported the empire and I love my ‘friends’ who work hard and support me only requiring me to let them live as a reward.  If you look at the Kurds in Turkey right now, the Turks call them ‘brothers’ and they consider the PKK as ungrateful ‘siblings’ and are shocked that the Kurds are rebelling.  If this is the treatment of their fellow Muslims in 2011, then consider the ‘joys’ of being a minority Christian in 1800.  It seems the Kurds, though, learned from the Armenian experience and as much as the Turks would love to ‘relocate’ the Kurds over a cliff, they can’t do it as relocation programs are harder now than they were before.  Once again, they fear that if they allow the Kurds basic human rights, then the Kurds will start their own country, which history has shown us repeatedly – give people MORE rights, and they will rebel and secede.  Take away their rights, and they will love you for it.     

  146. “… why do you as an Armenian, “: are you sure Boyajian ?
    his posts and the positions ‘he’  relentlessly advocates give one pause as who ‘he’ really is and what ‘his’ motives are. I think Sylva-MD-Poetry pegged him right (Jul 5 post).

    Frankly, other than the obvious ‘gimme’ of not denying the AG (would be too obvious), can’t see anything in his posts that is NOT consistently  pro-Turkish. He may or may not be one, but the posts sure say ‘Turk’ in bright neon letters.

     

  147. avatar Random Armenian // July 5, 2011 at 10:28 pm // Reply

    Accusing the Turks of stealing the hamam is rather subjective, given that many different groups, nations and cultures adopt and then change or advance elements from others, is a natural phenomenon. Elements of other cultures are not always named to attribute the originators. Look at “Arabic numerals” which in fact originated from India and propegated westward by Arab mathematicians. The West calls it Arabic numerals because they were exposed to it through the Arabs. Turkish baths are so named because of exposure to the Ottoman empire.

    How many elements of Armenian culture are actually of Armenian origin? How many of the Armenian words you use are actually loan words from Middle Persian? Hazar (1 thousand) for example. Is that stealing? How about Turkish words that are used by Armenians. How many Armenian songs have the word “yar” in it? Are we the ones stealing?

    Cultural elements jump from one group to another. It’s a natural and organic process and can’t be stopped.

    One can make the accusation of disshonesty and even theft if the origin of a cultural element is deliberately obfuscated or denied out of nationalism or other motives. Take for example the “Sun Language Theory” where supposedly all languages originated from a proto-Turkic one. I don’t know if this is even taken seriously today but this language “theory” was proposed.

    There are plenty of real legitimate issues and problems in Turkey that could be discussed. But cultural elements can be very subjective.

  148. Avery,
    why is Karakin’s  experience in turkey so different from mine? why don’t the guys in bulging grey suits follow him around like they do me? 
    Armen K,
    I have  eyewitness documentation that in 1915 a village leader in Western Armenia told the terrified women and children that the church was distributing the little it had amongst them , knowing that their families had all worked from dawn to dusk every single day, yet were barely able to keep enough to feed themselves.

  149. “One way or another there will be payback. I am sure Turks would rather Armenians always get slaughtered, without fighting back.”

    Well, thats it, I am now going to don my armor, my long sword, my bow and arrow, drink some kimiz, then mount my loyal horse and find you wherever you are so we can have an old fashioned, man to man duel and sort this thing once and for all…

  150. To start, I find it incredibly sad that there is so much raw hatred and anger expressed on these pages. I grew up in a household with genocide survivors, whose entire families left behind were wiped out, but my grandparents had the wisdom to never, ever express any level of hate or anger about what happened or towards Turks in general. Maybe this is why I find the many nasty comments expressed here to be so difficult to swallow. If those who masterminded the genocide were so evil (which they undoubtedly were), why stoop to their level? Why have people decided to wear the same cloak of racism and hatred?  Frankly, I just don’t get it. Yes….they were evil and did dastardly evil things, but your endless ranting about it will not change the fact that my grandfather was an orphan, will it?  He lived with that all his life and never spewed hatred and even better, passed that lack of hatred on to his children and then to theirs.  

    And, let me ask….if the life in Ottoman Turkey was soooooo unbearably hellish for 600+ years, then why are you all yearning for it so much?  If it wasn’t paradise at all, but a nasty life from sunrise to sunset, why are you so desperate to get it back? What are you really asking for? What fantasy is it? On some level, it makes no sense at all.  I submit that you don’t really know what you’re talking about. You’ve blinded yourself to many positive truths with one dark swatch. Yes, I admit the swatch (aka, the genocide) was truly, truly horrible. But, if you think that attacking and insulting the very same people you’re pleading with for good, then you have no idea how to achieve your goals and have alot of learning to do. Repeating a negative mantra has led to a mob mentality that is consuming otherwise sensible people, and unless you want to just perpetuate hate and anger, makes no sense and pains me to read on these pages. 

     

     

     

  151. Karekin, for the thousandth time:  no one here or anywhere on these pages or beyond has hatred or racial intolerance towards ordinary modern-day Turks.  Stop provocations!  Anger – yes. We have. A righteous one, as you yourself admit. Directed against the Turkish state and their denialist, unrepentant government, not the people. If you repeat this rubbish again, I will have to conclude that something is fundamentally wrong in your psyche. Sorry.

  152. Random:
     
    Armenians and Iranians have borrowed words, cuisine and customs from each other for centuries: we are friendly neighbor nations – why not.
    Armenians and Iranians have never attempted to obliterate each other or each others’ culture.
    People throughout the world learn from each other and borrow ideas.
     
     
    Armenians and Iranians can be traced back 3,000-5,000 years. They had developed rich cultures, and civilizations by the year c 1,000 A.D. when Seljuk Turks appeared in our neighborhoods. What do you think ? who stole from whom.
     
     
    The difference with Turks is that after obliterating the indigenous peoples – Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians – they have been working relentlessly to erase any traces of their civilizations  and any mention of most everything that  they call ‘Turkish’ is not Turkish all.
    The Genocide continues: it is White Genocide now.
     
     
    When Turks advertise for the Turkish Airlines using the expression “….thousands of years of Turkish culture…..”, when Turks invaded only 1000 years ago, what do you think the purpose is ? To convince the uninformed that Turks have been living there for thousands  of years: there was nobody else there.
     
     
    So I will continue accusing them of stealing everything: let them prove otherwise.
    They don’t get the presumption of innocence after what they have done.

  153. Oh no Murat: I have no intention of  meeting with you  so we can have an old fashioned, man to man duel’.
    I know all about you fierce Turks. Great fighters and all – so fierce and brave that they had to disarm Armenian troops serving in the Ottoman Army so they could be safely massacred.
     
     
    You guys keep throwing  the same ridiculous challenge: we have no intention of starting a fight with Turkey. My idea of ‘payback’ is not the same as yours.
    The idea is to take care of our business and wait for Turkey to disintegrate from inside, same as the Ottoman Empire.
    Turkey has lots of powerful enemies waiting for things to line up to carve her up.
    We’ll just sit and watch from the sidelines, while Turkey is bled to death.
    Then we’ll just walk over and take legal possession of what’s ours: why fight when there is no need for it.  

  154. Gor – please…go back and read the posts on here…a substantial number of them use language about Turks that is offensive to me as an Armenian, because I’m also a human being. You still don’t seem to realize that I am not the one throwing out provocations, or anger…I am just reacting to what I have been reading here, and there is alot of it. You should also note that even in one of the most recent, well documented cases of genocide, in Rwanda, it is individuals who are being put on trial for masterminding the event, not the state of Rwanda.  But please, answer my question…what is really being demanded here?  If, as so many posters write, life under Turkish rule was nothing but hell 24/7, then why are these people yearning for it so endlessly?  Apparently, at least according to many who write here, it was an endless nightmare….You should really all be ecstatic that it’s gone, it’s over and you’re not there and there is no requirement for you to step one foot there. Close the door and be done with it!  You can’t have it both ways…you can’t say that we lost paradise and at the same time blatantly say it was the worst place on earth. Which was it?  Tell me?  I need to know. It can’t be both, except in a twisted fantasy. Despite what you and others say, I suspect it was quite good for about 600 years or more, until it was not. I can respect history and fact, but not streams of propaganada designed to convince everyone that Turkey is the worst place on the planet, which it is not.  Now, no one is saying it’s paradise either, but considering that Hayastansi Armenians are flocking there in the tens of thousands, many to live and work, I think some of the comments here are a bit off-base in their vehemence.  

     

  155. Now, this is really something to be upset about – and please, no shooting the messenger:

    http://blogs.forbes.com/danielfisher/2011/07/05/the-worlds-worst-economies 

  156.  
    And, let me ask….if the life in Ottoman Turkey was soooooo unbearably hellish for 600+ years, then why are you all yearning for it so much?  If it wasn’t paradise at all, but a nasty life from sunrise to sunset, why are you so desperate to get it back? What are you really asking for? What fantasy is it?
     
     
    Has someone lost their grip on reality ? show us one post where an Armenian says he/she wants to go back to the ‘Ottoman Turkey….so much’.
    Isn’t this, “like, year 2011”.
    The idea is for invaders (that would be the Turks) to leave our lands, so we can go back and live on our lands peacefully as citizens of Western Armenia, not as subjects of Turks – Ottoman, Ittihad, or Bozkurt.
     
     
    We don’t expect it to be hellish: it will be difficult at first, for sure. But no fantasy.
    If landlocked, blockaded tiny Armenia – who had to fight a brutish  war for survival only 18 years ago – can accomplish so much in only 20 years of independence with the extremely unfavourable conditions it is under; if Artsakh can  rebuild itself into a beautiful modern republic in such a short time – after the devastation of the war; is there any doubt what Armenians will be able to do with access to the Black Sea ? with unrestricted trade routes ? with more land to grow and build things ?
     
     
    And we don’t need your coveted Turk overlords to thrive: all we need is for them to get out of our way and leave us alone.

  157. @Karekin,

    There is no hatred against a Turkish taxi driver in Istanbul today, I am merely stating that life under the Ottoman Empire looks great compared to 1915-1916 since it is better to be persecuted and have little rights than to be marched to death, but neither are paradises.  Most do not want to return to the Ottoman Empire but to a Turkey more in line with European or American ideals and rights.  

  158. Karekin, you distinguish yourself as a Turcophile whose posts are intended to, metaphorically speaking, douse the fires for justice of Armenian posters.   I don’t see the hatred you see here.  I see justified anger at the Turkish leadership for their arrogant and malicious denial of truth.  I don’t know what you are all about, but I resent the disinformation you are dealing in.

  159. Karakin writes: “I grew up in a household with genocide survivors, whose entire families left behind were wiped out, but my grandparents had the wisdom to never, ever express any level of hate or anger about what happened or towards Turks in general.”

    oh, really? Those of our ancestors who saw their families barbarically butchered in front of their eyes by Turks and Kurds had the normal human reactions of hatred and anger and fear and contempt. Does anyone actually believe they were neutral and unemotional about what was done to them and their families?  If they were, they were already driven out of their minds by the unspeakable horror of what they had witnessed. My mother and her sister were brutally raped. They saw their brother and their father taken away.My grandmother had a child resulting from rape. My father witnessed the murder of his family. There is consensus amongst all reputable researchers – the effects of genocide, holocaust, mass murder, ethnic cleansing, are carried down for generations. Growing up, I saw daily evidence of the effects on my parents and one grandparent. No survivor was left unaffected, and neither was the generation that followed. There is something seriously wrong when a person can write, as Karakin has, “…my grandparents had the wisdom to never, ever express any level of hate or anger about what happened.. .”

    Every single one of us should have hate and anger about all acts of genocide and holocaust and mass murder and ethnic cleansin, whenever and wherever they occur. To suggest otherwise is to endorse evil. I also detest Karakin’s use of the word “happened”  when it is applied to the Armenian Genocide. Genocide does not just happen. It is the premeditated determination to make an entire race of people extinct, to completely eliminate their lanuage, culture, history, faith, music, literature. It is lunacy to intimate that anyone survives completely unaffected by the loss of their entire family from genocide. Shame on Karakin for having the unmitigated gall to present an unemotional, accepting stance of genocide as being “wisdom;” to hold it up as a model that should be followed, rather than one that should be deplored.

    How dare this person accuse any of us as “wear[ing] the same cloak of racism and hatred” as the perpetrators of genocide? No “cloak of racism and hatred” equals the hatred and racism of those who commit genocide. To make unfounded and accusatory remarks about his percieved hatred of present-day Armenians towards present-day Turks is nothing more than an attempt to diminish the suffering of the survivors and their descendants of an evil act committed by Ottomans, and still shamelessly denied by some of their descendants.

    He reveals his ignorance about ownership and property rights by sarcastically asking “… if the life in Ottoman Turkey was soooooo unbearably hellish for 600+ years, then why are you all yearning for it so much?  If it wasn’t paradise at all, but a nasty life from sunrise to sunset, why are you so desperate to get it back?”

    However, his use of the terminology “you all” is absolutely correct. There is him and them there are the rest of us who proudly constitute the “you all” who want justice – and will increasingly seek it until we get it. We will, as the prince in Avery’s parable, wait 500 years – or more, if necessary, but justice will prevail.

  160. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // July 7, 2011 at 1:05 am // Reply

    Boyajian,
     
    You understood our ‘Genocided Psychology’ and have said, 
    What We wanted to say…in your honest own way…
    That we don’t Hate any body…As Karekin says, 
    It is a well-know ‘Genetic Fact’
    That …We don’t possess any kind of hate in our soulful-hearts…
    But we like them them to understand what we went through 
    and how our parents lived and suffered
    Till they earned their bread and educated us
    From their hard sweats…
    I remember Dr. Asterjian’s palace in Mosil (Um-Alrabayn) now Naynava
    I don’t know if it still exist there…! 
     
    Why we should hate if someone love us…
    See how Arabs, Kurds and Iranians like us…
    They respect and love our nation…our names…
    Always we hear… 
    “Oh, Armenians are trustful race”
    Once they know me I am Armenian 
    They don’t know what to say…
    Their answer repeats what they feel
    “I have Armenian friend the most honest”
     
    Once an Arab official person said…
    We don’t have Armenian criminals in Arab lands
    (touch-wood as English men says…I hope always)
     
    Arabs always love us and proud to pronounce our names…
    I know him since ages… His name is…Garo…Harut… Abu-Sako (father of Saku) 
    Not Sakooglu as the Turkish do…documenting in passports…
    Gul’s wife surname is Satoglu…!!!…probably was Satoian…Sadoian as the famous painter Alex Sadoyan…
    Now I read many names Armenian-Turkish…now have American nationality…I get shocked… 
    ends with oglu…Why they didn’t change…I don’t know why…
    still scared from Turks…to follow them till USA…?
    Why not…they can send many gendermas as they follow anyone
    Who writes against them and everywhere…the money and planes are there
    No place for them seems far…!!!
    All their ‘honest literates’ live far away from their democratic-islamatized Turkey
    They escaped because they are followed even in safe Democratic lands…! 
    An Arab writer wrote about Lawyer Fathyie Cetin (Arab call her Fathiya Shetin)
    “How a brave lady she is to write her story and publish in Turkey… having Armenian background”

     
    Sylva

  161. In a sense, the religious and Muslim character of the Ottoman Empire did prevent the complete genocide of the Armenians although constant harrasment, massacres, and persecution was the norm.  However, when the secular and nationalist CUP took over, the religion became Turkism above Islam and the religion of nationalism continued under Kemal and expanded.  This is why secular Turks go crazy when you mention the Armenian Genocide.  Their belief in the founding principles of Turkey and Kemalism are like a religion, and like a religion, even in the face of overwhelming data, belief still proceeds normally.  On the other hand, The more conservative Muslim leadership in place now values religion as well as nationalism and it is that religious aspect that will be able to reconcile with the past, not the nationalistic side.  Even if Turkey had judgements against it in the UN and in every court, etc.. they would not cede an inch of land or a single dollar unless they wanted to do it, as laws and rules are only as valuable as the enforcement.  If the UN decides there was an Armenian Genocide and finds Turkey guilty and rewards the Eastern 10% to Armenia, it would be irrelevant unless the Turks comply, or otherwise, an invasion must occur. 

  162. In the end, some common ground has to be established, and it should focus on the positive aspects of the Muslim religion, and to differentiate the CUP regime and its leadership which was nationalistic, secular, and agnostic or atheist and the Muslim character of the current administration.  This way, Turks can join with the Armenians in condemning the CUP and its fascist goals and its overall actions, which was a disaster for the entire Ottoman Empire.  Similar to how the Holocaust is attributed to Nazi Germany as a seperate entity, the Armenian Genocide is attributed to the CUP regime and its abuses under martial law.  Further, we can agree that it was a chaotic time, and that during the collapse of any empire, different groups who have been persecuted, would agititate for autonomy or independence, and a minority of the Armenians were involved in these activities.  However, the decision to deport the children, women, and elderly was based on fascist and nationalistic concerns, not on military ones nor on religious grounds.  In fact, the more devout Muslims objected to deportation of the women and children as it is against their religious law to kill innocents.  Further, the Armenian Genocide was executed successfully because of a perfect storm with many accomplices including the Germans, the Kurds, and the refugees from the Balkan wars.  If you approach the Armenian Genocide issue as a function of several terrible events which occured at the same time, a dialogue can be established in which a certain era and circumstances led to the Armenian Genocide by a terrible regime of the CUP, which not only destroyed the Armenians and Greeks, but also lost the entire Middle East and Balkans so we should agree with our Turkish friends that this regime was a terrible one in every sense of the word, did not represent Muslim or Turksish or Ottoman values, and it would be beneficial to condemn the regime and the era as it will allow Turkey to escape the web of the nationalists (its own religion) and to move on to the future without blaming the Turks of today or even the current government in power and likewise, the Turks not blaming the Armenians especially in the Diaspora for ‘instigating’ the Genocide, because as good Muslims, the women and children should have been protected and once the Turks see the non-religious nature of the CUP and the wild criminals used for the murders, they will understand that this is not related to them or their values and be able to judge it as a separate entitiy without feeling any shared guilt which is the key for reconciliation.  We have to be on the same team, condemning this terrible era and regime.   In fact, the lack of Armenians in the East led to millions of deaths due to starvation and disease which meant that war and religious concerns did not matter, only nationalistic concerns to destroy the Armenians mattered even if they lost the war, which means they were not a rational group, which means they had no business running the Empire and acting on behalf of the Muslims and Turks and Kurds since they did not truly represent them.  Further, the lack of any Christian population in Turkey has impeded its economic progress and its relations with the EU would have been automatic.  Therefore, the CUP regime and the Kemal regime were terrible nationalistic experiments that have destroyed Turkey’s potential and will continue to do so, as the Kurds are repressed rather than used to improve the economy or the military and similar to 1908, there is hope now and a new constitiution, but if the nationalistic groups take over, it will be 1915 again but for the Kurds which will teach everyone in Turkey a lesson, that democracy and freedom and greater rights bring prosperity and growth to the state and repression and fascism and destruction leads to the opposite as we have seen since 1908 in Turkey.  It is time to accept that this experiment has failed and return to the ideals of the Ottoman Empire circa 1500 with equal religious rights, legal rights. and financial rights for all with no discrimination and the Ottoman Empire will be then reconstituted in a better way if that came to pass.  However, the biggest hurdle remains giving up the religion of nationalism in exchange for democracy and Islam or Christianity.

  163. Again, no one is questioning the history of the genocide…but you seem to be demanding based on something that happened not yesterday, but almost 100 years ago, and if I read Avery correctly, he wants to turn the clock of history backwards. This is the fantasy I find to be the most bizarre – because it can’t happen!  If Armenians, who were the majority population in eastern Asia Minor in the 11th C, and couldn’t repel the Seljuks, what makes you think you can do anything now?  Are you totally crazy???  And, in an effort to be even more realistic, the other key question is…since no one on this forum was or has been personally attacked by the government of Turkey or by any Turk, why this endless pleading?  It’s very obvious that you are not pleading for an apology or even for reparations, you are gunning for the restoration of western Armenia. Well, if you haven’t noticed, eastern Armenia – our only azad Hayastan – is emptying out of people…there are no jobs, no business, no economic activity (other than NGOs), and the place is a corrupt mess from top to bottom. And, our grip on an azad Karabagh is tenuous.  Now, if Armenia was a huge success and it had reunited w/ azad Karabagh, I could understand….but, that’s not the case. So, it makes everything else pale in comparison. Anger about the genocide is not going to feed people in Dilijan or help to keep people in Meghri or Zangezour or Alaverdi. That should be your worry…not a history lesson that you cannot rerun according to your own script.  You may not like these words, but think of it as tough love….I love you all as Armenians, but please, stop the fantasies…we have real problems today that need to be solved, otherwise there may not be an Armenia at all. To me, that’s much worse.

  164. well said Perouz:
     
    re the travels of our ‘friend’ vs yours in Turkey: I never believed his parable (and it was a parable (i.e. not real)): too many illogical assertions, and inconsistencies with actual events that take place in Turkey today. As I said, I have never been toTurkey, but I have read accounts similar to yours from others. I have yet to hear anything resembling the mythical Turkey that our ‘friend’ described.
     
     
    This individual’s purpose seems to be to constantly denigrate Armenia, ignore the positives and accentuate the negatives.
    Turkey: ignore the negatives, and accentuate the positives, and keep repeating – make Turkey look good, no matter what.
    Every solid  counterexample to ‘his’ false assertions we present  is ignored, and the same propaganda posts – with minor variations –  repeated ad nauseam,
     
     
    Here is one example: Now, no one is saying it’s paradise either, but considering that Hayastansi Armenians are flocking there in the tens of thousands, many to live and work”
    There certainly are several thousand RoA citizens working in Turkey. (….”flocking there in the tens of thousands” ?!)
    Guess what ? there are several HUNDRED thousand (close to 1 million) RoA citizens working in Russia: but of course our Turkophile friend cannot mention that: will shoot down his ‘Turkey is Paradise’ narrative.
    How about millions of illegal Turk migrants flooding into Europe looking for jobs and a better life ? don’t mention that either – bad for Turkey’s image.
     
     
    We all know what problems Armenia has: we also know where it was 20 years ago – people cutting down street trees for firewood in Yerevan– and where it is now. Anyone seen center of Yerevan lately ? The KAROUN concert at the Opera House ?
    Where would Turkey be without the 100s of Billions West has pumped into it since it joined NATO ?
    Where would it be without the 100s Billions of wealth accumulated over centuries by Armenians it stole, after murdering its rightful owners ?
    Other than the European part, the rest of Turkey is mired in poverty: not much different than 60 year ago: Perouz saw it with her own eyes.
    Don’t believe Perouz ? That’s why God invented the video camera: see videos of occupied Western Armenia in 2011, and tell us again how advanced Turkey is. Why don’t you talk about that Karekin ?
     
    ——–
     
    On the Armenian ‘prince’, Perouz: actually it is not a parable, according to the Armenian historian Artak Movsesyan; it is a historical event.
    Below is the link to the Youtube, where he discusses it. I have read his books and heard him talk in public.
    He seems to be a cool-headed scientist, not some delusional Armenian that thinks we created the universe (……we do have some of those).
    Watch  the video and judge for yourself. The prince is discussed at time stamp 5:45.
    (there is a whole series of vids by RoA scientists in that group – very educational and inspirational)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13-vUhq4rVM&feature=related

  165. re Forbes.
     
    Another gem from the great ‘friend’ of Armenians.
    “Now, this is really something to be upset about – and please, no shooting the messenger:”
     
    Let’s take a closer look at the message, shall we ?
    Madagascar#10 (worst)
    Armenia#9 (2nd worst)
    Guinea#8 (3rd worst)
    Ukraine#7 (4th worst)
     
    Let’s stop right there, and forget Armenia for second (remove my bias): does anyone really believe life in Ukraine is only slightly better than Guinea?
    Makes no sense right ? Because it is nonsense.
     
    Here are some GDP numbers:
     
    Madagascar- GDP per capita (PPP)
    $900 (2010 est.) [that’s right it is $900]
    $1,000 (2009 est.)
    $1,000 (2008 est.)
    note: data are in 2010 US dollars
     
    Armenia- GDP per capita (PPP)
    $5,700 (2010 est.)
    $5,500 (2009 est.)
    $6,400 (2008 est.)
    note: data are in 2010 US dollars
     
    Guinea- GDP per capita (PPP)
    $1,000 (2010 est.) [that’s right it is $1000]
    $1,100 (2009 est.)
    $1,100 (2008 est.)
    note: data are in 2010 US dollars
     
    Ukraine- GDP per capita (PPP)
    $6,700 (2010 est.) [that’s right 6x that of Guinea]
    $6,400 (2009 est.)
    $7,500 (2008 est.)
    note: data are in 2010 US dollars
     
    Guess where these numbers came from…tick..tick…tick….dzzzzz…time’s up….you guessed wrong: they are not from the (biased) Armenia Department of National Statistics. They are from the CIA Factbook (look it up): no friend of Armenia.
     
    Here is one more:
     
    Georgia- GDP per capita (PPP)
    $4,900 (2010 est.)
    $4,600 (2009 est.)
    $4,700 (2008 est.)
    note: data are in 2010 US dollars
     
    (I did not include our other neighbor Azerbaijan, because their GDP is artificial and  inflated due to being based almost entirely on oil production)
     
    Question: how is possible for Georgia, whose GDP is less than Armenia, not to be on that list ?
     
    The point is that economic numbers are constantly manipulated by Govs, by private entities, etc to produce a certain desired political message, or deceive their populations. Forbes is notoriously Turkophile and notoriously Anti-Russia (and by extension Anti-Armenia).
     
     
    I live in the USA. The unemployment rate is officially around 9%-10%. Not a single independent economist believes it.
    Most peg it at around 18%-20%. Do you know how the US Gov calculates the unemployment rate ? if you have been unemployed more than 9 months, and no longer can draw unemployment pay – you are no longer considered unemployed. See how nicely it works ?
    If you have given up looking for a job – you are no longer considered officially unemployed.
    Did you know the official inflation rate – core CPI –  does NOT include food and fuel in the US? hard to believe ? it’s true
    The most important and costly items in a family’s expenses are not included in the core CPI.
     
     
    So Mr. Karekin  breathlessly throwing in any piece of  distorted  disinformation about Armenia that he can dig up  is more evidence what ‘his’ real motives and agenda are.

  166. “The KAROUN concert at the Opera House ?”
    correction: KOHAR concert. 

  167. Please Avery – get a grip on today’s reality, which is rather grim – and stop trying to shoot the messenger, just because you don’t like the message:

    http://www.rferl.org/content/armenia_dwindling_population_concerns/24258351.html 

  168. no, you get a grip on reality Karekin.
    allow me to re-paste the proof below (from above posts)

    —— 
    And, let me ask….if the life in Ottoman Turkey was soooooo unbearably hellish for 600+ years, then why are you all yearning for it so much?  If it wasn’t paradise at all, but a nasty life from sunrise to sunset, why are you so desperate to get it back? What are you really asking for? What fantasy is it?
     
     
    Has someone lost their grip on reality ? show us one post where an Armenian says he/she wants to go back to the ‘Ottoman Turkey….so much’.
    ————-

    in case you forgot, the Italics are your words, as in they are your words, based on what kind of ‘reality’ ?
    when you can produce one post, just one, where ANY Armenian has said they want to go back to Ottoman Turkey, you can talk to me about ‘reality’. 

    And you giving propaganda links to dredged up dirt on Armenia does not impress me.
    I know all about Armenia’s population, Armenia;s economy, and a whole lot more.
    I also know all about Radio Free Europe – who they work for, what’s their agenda.
    Before producing another Neocon link, first refute  the numbers I produced that counter Forbes’s disinformation above.
     

  169. Turkey has lots of powerful enemies waiting for things to line up to carve her up.
    We’ll just sit and watch from the sidelines, while Turkey is bled to death.

    Well, it seems that those fanatically nationalist Turks do have a reason to be paranoid and suspicious of everyone’s intentions.  I think they mostly agree with you, and likes of you justify all the things you critcise.  What’s an ordinary Turk supposed to do with this?  Replace Turk with Armenian above and you will get the picture – though I highly doubt it.  In fact, you and likes of you have learned very little from 100 years of history it seems.

  170. avatar Monastras // July 8, 2011 at 5:47 am // Reply

     
    Avery,

    Just a small contribution to your discussion, there aren’t millions of illegal Turks living and working in Europe. But there are millions of Turks legally living and working in Europe. In the last two decade, 5-6 millions Turks have returned Turkey permanently. Another 5-6 millions are still living and working abroad. Therefore, it isn’t unusual to meet somebody who returned Turkey in every neighbourhood. As you might know, the immigration control is very tight now in Europe. I am not saying there is no Turk working illegally in Europe but this can be ignored. The Turkish population is about 3 m in Germany. When we look at the latest figure which is 2010, 20000 people went to Germany for various reason, in the same year, 30000 people permanently returned Turkey. You cannot find great differences between the European cities and the cities in the western and the southern Turkey.
    Did you know that all Romanians, Bulgarians were working in Turkey before they joined EU? But one thing you mention is right. The eastern  Turkey is pretty much the same as you Armenians left. This is partly because of the fighting between PKK and the security forces but ultimately, this is also the immigration route. If you had stayed in Turkey, you most probably were going to follow the same direction because of the jobsand the business opportunities. Did you know that 3500 villages were emptied by the Army because of the insurgency? But now there is a complete silence apart from random attacks.
    I would be amazed if somebody has bad experiences when he/she was in Turkey. She or he must be extremely unlucky.

  171. Avery – I will agree w/ you that Armenia’s economic situation is not entirely self-created, there are many external forces working against it. Fine. However, stats are stats, and if you know what ‘median’ income means, it is that half the population is above and half fall below that number. I also agree that there are major political forces that are issuing anti-Armenia propaganda all the time. But again, the best way to challenge any of that is to make real changes on the ground, the kind that will allow and encourage people to stay in their native land because they can earn a living to support their families. No matter what you may say, a huge number of people in Armenia, if given a ticket tomorrow, would leave for good. I don’t know where you live, but perhaps you need to go take their place.

    As for Turkey, there is also alot of misinformation that circulates in the Armenian press, based on conjecture, hearsay or old news. Just like anything else, seeing is believing. On my trips  to Turkey, which have always been wonderful (it should be, it’s OUR homeland), the experience has always become even better once people learned I am Armenian. On every occasion, people have been more hospitable, more friendly, more helpful and seemingly appreciative of my visit…all from people who are perfect strangers and all Turks. Now, you can say or think what you want, but I can trust my own experience and compare it to all the other places in the world I have been…and honestly, Turkey ranks as the best. Odd to think, isn’t it, that a place we’ve heard so much negative about would be a better experience than lots of other, more esteemed places in Europe. Just try telling someone in London or Paris or even the US, or anywhere else that you’re Armenian, and see if they care or treat you as an honored guest. I know it sounds odd, but that has been my honest experience and yes, it has been one of the most wonderful surprises of my life. You should try it for yourself, and then tell us your thoughts.  When I think of how horribly people in Armenia treated Armenian athletes who came from Istanbul and could not speak proper eastern Armenian, it made me embarrassed.  When things like that happen…you really can’t blame outsiders or negative propaganda.  It says something about our reality that is much more important and more unpleasant than anyone wants to believe, despite it being true.

  172. avatar Necati Genis // July 8, 2011 at 8:14 am // Reply

    TO Murat  and Monastras,

    As you ,too, easily can see that the aim of the people here is only making black propaganda. They are deaf  and blind.

    So i would suggest you not to spend your time to prove some facts because they will not, dont want listen to  what you say.

    Leave them alone in their small imaginary world.

  173. Karakin’s narrative of his wonderful experiences in turkey, where he was so well loved, make me wonder if he is smoking something cheap from the Istanbul bazzar. To write of Turkey in the same paragraph as London or Paris, is pathetic. No men in suits in London or Paris ever followed me around or told me they loved me. (darn!) He is also willing to climb over barren fields and mountains and stop men working in fields or herding their sheep, to tell them he is an Armenian.  When he walks along streets or eats in resturants or shops in little stores, he feels so warm towards everyone that he stops men from what they are doing in order to tell them he is Armenian. They in turn assure him that they love him too.  It would appear that Karakin has an advantage that I don’t – he speaks Turkish. Pretty fluently too, I’ll bet.

  174. avatar Necati Genis // July 8, 2011 at 9:19 am // Reply

    Karekin,

    My words were not for you…

    I hope we can have   a dinner next time you come to Turkey…

    ( Raki, cheese , balik  and melon :)   )

  175. So yes, Necati – perhaps at Buyukada or Kinaliada?  It’s sad to see that rather than focusing on the future, which is the only place where we can improve things, some people choose to focus on the past – to the point that it also impairs their ability to enjoy and improve today. Some people want to believe that it is impossible for Armenians to enjoy a visit to Turkey, yet last year alone, more than 50,000 visited Antalya for holiday. Thousands more also visited Istanbul and other regions. I’ve talked with some of them…and none has ever had a negative experience with anyone. If anything is going to improve, there must be a willingness to compromise and be flexible – on all sides of the equation. Being rigid, some think, is a sign of strength, but is actually, a sign of insecurity and weakness. Things can and will change, as they have been more and more over the last several years. Of course, it is not perfect, but greatly improved over the past. It is difficult to overcome antiquated thinking, unfortunately, because you can’t teach old dogs new tricks, but with new generations, yes, it can and must be done, especially if they want today’s Armenia to survive into the future.  
       

  176. Dear Necati Genis:
     
    A refresher for you, from the Bloomberg Photojournalist thread:
     
    ————-
    Necati Genis
    July 1, 2011 | 
    Avery,
    Without Turks comment here , AW would be sooooo  boring …
    You want to try?   OK!
    I AM CALLING FOR TURKS NOT TO COMMENT HERE FOR  AT LEAST 2 WEEKS…
     
    Avery
    July 1, 2011 | 
    Necati: why only 2 weeks ? how about  2 years ? Why don’t you, Necati Genis, promise never to come back to AW ?
     

          Necati Genis
          July 2, 2011 | 
         Avery,    OK…Until AW apoligizes …
     
           Avery

    July 2, 2011 | 

    OK then, Necati Genis: so long.
    ———————
     
    I doubt very much that AW apologized to you or anybody else.
    Sooooo……why are you back ? It hasn’t been 2 weeks, much less 2 years, much less NEVER that you promised.
     
    Any comment Necati ? You can of course admit that you love jousting with Armenians, you miss Armenians more than the other way around – and we’ll be back to the good old days: forgive and forget.
     
    Necati, you know that I am not going to let go: same as with your misstep with Ms. Nanore, same as with ‘Robert’.
    So, you might as well eat crow now, and be done with it. It’s easy: I have done it –  the taste is bitter, but you get over pretty quick.

  177. Murat:
     
    “…..nationalist Turks do have a reason to be paranoid and suspicious of everyone’s intentions”
    Yes they do: the more we, Armenians and our allies, can feed that paranoia, the more fanatically irrational they’ll become, and make costly mistakes.
    I am glad you and I agree on that particular item re Nationalist Turks.
     
     
    In fact, you and likes of you have learned very little from 100 years of history it seems”
    When you say ‘learned from 100 years of history it seems’, do you mean Armenians like me did not learn the lesson Turks taught us in 1915 ?
    Please clarify. (all you have to do is say “Yes” ).
    In the event the answer is “Yes”, then I can assure you that myself and Armenians like myself have learned quite a lot from history.
    You being a Turk may not see it that way. But actual events and Armenians’ behaviour has demonstrated convincingly that we have learned, adjusted, and adapted.
    We certainly don’t have to diplomatic experience and savvy of the Turks – after all you guys have had a 600 year head start – but we are learning from our mistakes.

  178. Monastras:

    Please provide sources of your numbers re migration of Turks to/from Europe.
    And, yes I do know about Romanians and Bulgarians: I never said Turks are the only ones migrating to EU. 

  179. avatar Grish Begian // July 8, 2011 at 2:10 pm // Reply

    Necati,
                  You and Karekin should have turkish bath before having “halal raki” …

  180. re:  “I don’t know where you live, but perhaps you need to go take their place.”

    I live in the US, California specifically  Karekin. I was born in Yerevan, Armenia SSR.

    Where were you born Karekin ?
    Where do you live now ?

  181. “a willingness to compromise”, Karekin?  Compromise on what?! Were Turks one of the Central Powers and Armenians one of the Allied Powers during the WWI? Did Ottoman Armenians wage a massive, well-organized armed guerilla war against the Turkish government? Did Ottoman Turks conquered all of historic Armenia and Armenians in turn all or part of historic Turkish homeland in Mongolian steppes? What are you suggesting the two nations – one being a genocidal murderer and the other a victim to compromise on?! You’re making yourself a laughingstock! And guess what: if you’re an Armenian, you are one of the kind on these pages or anywhere I’ve met the Armenians. Think about this and have pity of yourself. Krikor Zohrab, one of 250 Armenian intellectuals who were rounded up in Constantinople in 1915 and then beheaded, believed up until the very last second that Turks were his brothers. But he miscalculated the callousness and slyness of the Turks. You’re free to accept an offer to drink raki or even have a bath with a Turk, as Grish suggested, but don’t forget what happened to Zohrab. In case you say those were different times, remember that until now the murderer-state didn’t repent and continues its Seljuk/Mongol type killings of everyone who speaks the truth. Hrant Dink’s murder happened in our times…

  182. Karekin –-   If you travel to Armenia as often as you travel to Turkey (where they flatter you and you feel significance of your miserable self), you’ll learn that there’s a term for a few rare Armenians like yourself. Avery will get this quick. They call self-deprecating people like you, who admire others’ traditions and customs more than their own, and feel more historical, cultural, or ethnic affinity to others, their mentality and system of values more than their own, a shur tvats hay, meaning, a “flipped over” Armenian. Essentially: “not genuinely Armenian”, an excessive xenophile. Think about it and draw conclusions…

  183. avatar Necati Genis // July 8, 2011 at 9:32 pm // Reply

    Karekin,
    Any place suitable  for you is good for me.

    I am thinking how nice it would be to share same table with   Nanore, Avery , Gayane, JDA , Grish Begian ,Boyajian, sylvia , Gor  and seervart  in Turkey . I think we can forget everything for a short time and try to know each other .

    I am looking  forward to  meeting you. Please let me  know when you come.

    My e-mail is : nec3@hotmail.com

    Avery:  sorry for interrupt with coming back  but i did not have any other way  to contact Karekin.

  184. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 9, 2011 at 2:02 am // Reply

    Karekin
    This is where you want us to go and enjoy
    Where under the earth there are many skulls 
    Since they invaded…from Armenia till Baghdad…Reaching Yemen
    You want us to become once again Karoo-Kant…!

    Watch this Video understand …
    This is a recent brand
    Their genes can not change
    They want to invade Europe…USA 
    And kill every cohort…once again 

    THE 16 TURKISH WORLD EMPIRES-A TURKISH HISTORY Vs.Pkk/Hpg

    All emperors are tyrant slayers…
    Wants to invade and reach their dreams…
    Can you count how many innocents are killed…?
    Men are scavengers they never think…
    Only they shout…drink…and sing 
    Destroying Civilizations
    Ignoring the lost lives…

  185. I don’t want to speak for others, Necati, but as for myself, I don’t share the same table with Turks who deny the heinous crime of their grandfathers against the Armenians. When it comes to Armenian genocide denial I cannot “forget everything” even for a short time. As for getting to know each other, Armenians know the Turks better than any other nation in the world. Typical Turkish flattery and sugar-coating won’t work in our case. We’ve learnt the lesson of how to deal with the Turks back in 1894-1896 and 1915-1923.

  186. Avery,
    here are a few news . I couldn’t find an official data but the human right president of the great national asembly . A political science professor, Zafer Uskul said several years ago that 5-6 million turks have return turkey permanently. he is a respected scholar. There are also too many people who have return from abroad in every neigbourhood. In the daily language, They are referred often as Alamanci to give a short backgraund about somebody. Therefore I have no reason not to believe this unless somebody disputes the figure.  The forum in the first website is for discussion among turks who have returned or intend or thinking to return turkey. It is turkish unfortunately, but if you get a chance you can use the internet translater to give you an idea why they want to return

    http://wowturkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=100217&start=0

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-8216guest-workers8217-of-germany-the-changing-facts-2010-12-15

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=thousands-of-turks-living-in-germany-are-goign-back-to-turkey-2010-12-30

  187. avatar monastras // July 9, 2011 at 2:19 pm // Reply

    it is sad to see many people here have a negative mind about turkey and turks.we do not have to agree with you guys but there is nothing wrong to get together. The government who decided to deport the armenian community and the ottoman empire who proceeded the decision were gone long time ago.turkey says lets get together and form a comission but the answer is acknowledge your crime.the whole business sounds weird. A state tv reporter was having chat with an elderly cafe owner in turkey. The original town is under water and the new town is a few miles away as new damn was built. his cafe is situated very close to the water and over looking the old town and the minaret that comes out of water. The tv reporter asked him whether or not he thinks very often about his friends and relatives that he said fare well at this mosque that is now underwater.he said if we ca not think about this all the time we have to built a bright future for ourself and for our children.he was a simple man but his words was impressive.this reflects the general public opinion in turkey.i am sure, the armenian community will grasp the same idea .

  188. Sylva:

    I cannot be angry
    For things that have passed.
    I cannot be bitter
    Until the last,
    I cannot be hungry
    Forever and a day,
    I cannot be angry
    So what do you say?

    I cannot find joy
    In another’s pain,
    I cannot find light
    In another’s rain,
    I cannot see gold
    In another’s sad past,
    I cannot take joy
    In another’s man’s fast.

    Now, if you want to share a smile,
    I’ll happily, happily walk a mile,
    But if all you want is to push me down,
    I’ll do my best to get out of town
    and try my best to hide a frown. 

     

  189. “I am sure, the Armenian community will grasp the same idea [about building a bright future for ourselves and for our children]”.   Undoubtedly, monastras.  But both the Armenian community and the Republic of Armenia, which are one indivisible entity, want to hear that our neighbors across the border have repented for their crime.  Think for a second: how do you build a bright future for yourself knowing that your next-door neighbor hasn’t apologized for raping your sister in front of your own eyes (this is one of the barbarian forms that Ottoman Turks did to Armenians in 1915)?  How?!

  190. avatar Grish Begian // July 9, 2011 at 4:11 pm // Reply

    Karekin,
                   Please do it!!!

  191. Monastras, stop deliberately twisting our comments, please.  No one here said anything negative about modern-day Turks. About Turkey as a denialist, distortionist state – yes. And we will continue saying and doing things until your government repents and apologizes. Another distortion on your part is this: “The government who decided to deport the Armenian community and the ottoman empire who proceeded the decision were gone long time ago.” You effectively distort the very essence of genocidal extermination of Armenians. Our grandparents were not just forcibly deported, they were massacred en masse on government orders. Had they been only deported, conventional wisdom suggests that they were to be brought back to the places of their permanent residence after WWI. Where are 2 million human beings of Armenian origin and their descendants, monastras? Secondly, for a crime against humanity such as genocide it doesn’t matter if the Ottoman Empire was gone long time ago. The Republic of Turkey is a legal successor of the Ottoman Empire. A question for you to which no Turk here has ever answered: If the Ottoman Empire, which committed the crime, is gone long time ago, then what prevents the modern Republic of Turkey to acknowledge the crime of their Ottoman predecessors who are gone long ago?! Armenians don’t believe that the commission on genocide is necessary at this time when the increasing number of foreign governments, international organizations, and professional associations acknowledge the Turkish crime as genocide. Also, Armenians suspect that Turks may use the commission only to delay recognition of genocide because no Turkish government from 1923 until now has ever attempted to speak truth about the annihilation of Armenians. Moreover, your government distorted the archival documents and prosecutes everyone who dares to call things by their names (Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, and cases of Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akcam,  Hrant Dink, and many others). How can we believe in the sincerity of such a nation? It’s not going to happen. Acknowledgment of crime is the foundation for building bilateral relations. And we think it’s better for the Turks to do it by themselves rather than be compelled to do it under the pressure of the international community.

  192. avatar a liberal turk // July 9, 2011 at 4:42 pm // Reply

    Turkey can never be an active global actor and rule-maker without solving her problems with Armenia, and it is impossible for Armenia to develop economically and get rid of all those corrupt governors without Turkey.

    That is the only simple fact which is not bad at all because at least each side needs the other. Hopefully, it is just a matter of time for governors to realize this.

  193. Gor: I could copy your post verbatim  re the get-together, with our Turk neighbors, but no need…it can also be considered written by me.
     
     
     
    Monastras:  “….I couldn’t find an official data”. Thanks for the unofficial links: I’ll review. But you understand I can’t trust Turkish sources blindly.
    (same as you wouldn’t trust Armenian sources). But I can do a sanity-check of the numbers against other sources. If you were right, I’ll say so in a later post.
     
     
     
    Monastras:  regarding your second post,  “…..there is nothing wrong to get together.” You are right that the parties guilty for the AG are long gone.
    I don’t hold you or any other individual Turk  responsible for the AG. Judging by the posts, I can state that no other Armenian posting on these pages does either.
    However, denying it is tantamount to endorsing it in our  minds – because there is no remorse, no contrition, no regret, no iron-clad word-of-honor from Turks – “Never Again our Armenian brothers”. In fact, what comes out ofTurkeyis the exact opposite.
     
    And we have gone round-and-round on this subject, as to why we, Armenians, cannot possibly forget and move on: no need to go into the specific details again, but for us Armenians it is a matter of survival of our RoA, our people in RoA, and by extension the Armenian Diaspora; for Turks it is just a matter of honor.
     
     
    A few posts above, in this thread I asked you about something you posted @ HurriyetDailyNews: I ask you again – were you that person ?
    If you were, then it answers your 2nd post. (in this post also: your conscious use of the expression  “…decided to deport the armenian community …” says a lot)
     
     
     
    And finally, Karekin has the time to compose a poem, but has no time to compose a simple answer to a simple question I posed – inquiring minds want to know what is Karekin hiding. (a question to which I answered quickly, and without any reservation)

  194. Necati, I can sit with you, but I don’t want to “forget everything for awhile.”  Not because I am filled with hate, but because my soul longs for justice for my people.  I can’t sit with you, a Turk, and not remember, not feel this pain, not ask you what you believe, not desire for you to you to admit the truth and to condemn this history.  This will always be between us, as long as Turkey continues to lie to the world.  I will always need to get these matters out of the way before we can sit as friends.  There cannot begin to be trust between us as long as you are unable to acknowledge this truth. 

  195. Boyajian….please….surely you must understand and realize that there have been and are, many, many lies in the world since time immemorial. In the US alone, in the last 10 years, the lies have resulted in the deaths of a million Iraqis and turning 4 million more into refugees. It was all based on lies, yet, the criminals, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others are treated royally and will be forever as former govt employees. It sickens my stomach, but life goes on. Others lied their way to huge profits with theft and manipulation that have impoverished many, but none of that has stopped, either.  Perhaps the real justice is that you are, in fact, alive and well, and able to write your words?  I suspect you have no desire to live anywhere in Turkey (and you can’t say you would if it were the Turkey before Turks…that wish…to turn the clock back 1000 years, is just a ridiculous excuse), so it seems you will carry this anger around with you, like a 50 lb rock, for the rest of your life?  I feel sorry for you for choosing to be a prisoner of the past. Yes, the genocide was sad, horrible and one of the worst crimes of humanity…but it should not impair your ability to enjoy a visit to Turkey….which by the way, was YOUR ancestral homeland before anyone else. So, while you are alive, take advantage of that and go enjoy it. You”ll be glad you did.
     

  196. Regarding your Turk migration  figures, Monastras.
    Your assertion ‘Another 5-6 millions are still living and working abroad.’  matches the numbers from Western sources as well.
    Your assertion  ‘ In the last two decade, 5-6 millions Turks have returned Turkey permanently’  cannot be independently verified.
    I don’t read Turkish, so can’t read the blog. In any case I wouldn’t trust data in a blog – Turkish, Armenian, whatever – without independent verification. People put anything in a blog.
     
     
    The Hurriyet links say nothing about 5M-6M Turks having returned toTurkey.
    This is the only number mentioned in that regard:
    ‘ Some 40,000 German-Turks returned to Turkey in 2009, German daily Bild recently reported, covering the story with the headline “ ‘We German-Turks returned to Turkey.’” ‘
    Even if we multiply say 50,000 by 20 years – as a mental exercise –  we are nowhere near 5M-6M returning.
    I can’t find a single article from Western sources mentioning any large numbers of Turks returning to Turkey permanently.
    So your assertion that 5M-6M returned toTurkeypermanently stands unsupported.
    (even respected scholars like Zafer Uskul can make mistakes, no ?)
     
     

  197. avatar Grish Begian // July 11, 2011 at 9:14 am // Reply

    Karekin,
                    Your brainwashed and “Turkified” mind is well preserved in you,  how a person can go to visit his/her ancesroal land where Kurds and Turks pissing on our destroyed churches and monuments every day…you need to get strong prescribed tranqulizers before entering Turkey, especially where you going to visit “occupied” Armenians teritories…I have no idea, if some Armenians will enjoy to go Nakhijevan, where tatar turks razed ancient Armenian cemetery and Khatchkars completely, you must be high in Turkish raki…and I wonder why you like to connect American foreign policy in Iraq for US Armenians??Is this because US and Israel support Kurdish State and stop Turkish troops to kill more Kurds in Iraqi Kurdistan?? Armenians will enjoy to go to Armenia and help our tourist money for our own local people, rather go Turkey to see devastation of our towns and cities and broken monuments, under the watchful eyes of Turkish Gendarme, unless you go there as an “undercover” as you did before !! why don’t you buy a piece of land close to old destroyed Armenian towns and make hotel out of it, put “Karekin’s INN” name.. see the reaction of of local Kurds and turks!!!  

  198. Grish – it would be interesting to see you direct your bizarre and crazy rants and comments (which I think are implied to be insulting and hurtful) to my 93 year old grandmother…she would face you directly, and would have some good words of (Christian) wisdom for you. She could also address you in Armenian, Turkish, English or any combination of the above, as you choose. I think and trust her wisdom and guidance above yours or anyone else’s on here, because she is simultaneously, Turkish and Armenian, an Armenian of Turkish origin. If you think that is so sinful, so horrible, so detestable, then something is seriously wrong with you.

    For once, please get out of your isolated, insulated, defensive Armenian bubble…most Armenians have, and frankly, are much happier people as a result. Instead of yearning for something you can’t have, be happy with what you do have. Your psyche will appreciate it. And please, stop telling other people what to do…but since you won’t, neither will I…so, make an effort to change and improve yourself as a loving, caring human being before accusing and threatening others.  
     

  199. Karekin, I wonder who is making the bizarre and crazy comments and poetry?  I just saw your hatred-filled poem against Sylva’s sanely and justly fitted poem with angry rants and hatred-filled pros.

  200. Thanks to Dr. Astarjian for bringing up this topic and wrote it so eloquently and matter of factly.  I have given in the near past my approval for Hamshen Armenians to be accepted on Armenian soil in Artsakh but of course with the thorough scrutiny and approval by the government of Artsakh along with our patriotic intellegentsia.  The one thing that makes me to think about is this: Although the Hamshen Armenians feel Armenian and somewhat speak the language, but in 96 years having been amidst a country that not only denies the Armenian Genocide, but have committed white Genocide against Armenians by nullifying any ancient Armenian monuments, Churches and Monasteries.  I am now soberly wondering if Hamshen Armenians have a good deal of Turkish mentalities and upbringing within them and if they behave against our Armenians idealisms and existence or not.  Do they know our history, where and how they derived from?  How Armenian are they?  I am not talking about minorities within them, but the majorities of them.  How do they think?  How much deep rooted Armenians are they?  After all, 96 years has passed and they lived and were educated in a country that hated us and very much hated and still does hate our existence on the globe.  I would like our Artsakh government and our intelligencia to look into this and be very knowledgeable about these matters before they take them in.

  201. avatar Grish Begian // July 11, 2011 at 8:07 pm // Reply

    Karekin,
                  I can read your mom’s word “love your enemy”
    This is why we have lost over 2 million Armenians and we became homeless garbage race in front of your worthless Allah lovers, a superior Islamized nation called Turks, until today denied our Genocide and you are helping them..
    Read my above notes I have never threatened anybody but tell the truth!!if your Turkish friends don’t like it you can refer them “Vatican newly released archives paper” about AG, that’s how Turkish soldiers “bet and played dice to guess the sex of a child before stabbing him or her with a bayonet after extracting them out of the womb.” …shame on you Karekin, now you are preaching humanism and Christianity, in order WE become HAPPY ARMENIANS and go to visit Hagia Sophia, another Islamized Church!!go have you raki with your Necati after having a Turkish bath in a Marmara’s 5 star hotel, I am sure Necati will pay your bill….

  202. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // July 12, 2011 at 9:45 am // Reply

    My last words before I pass away…
    For those who wants to forget their ancestries last minutes pray…

    The author, Sylva sings with Siamanto
            In her collected poetry
    “Songs of Searing Desert Storms, 2009″
    Doors Still Expects Fearful Knocks”
    Siamanto dreamed His dream was true . . .
    He lived in fear…
    He was waiting for many frightful guests! (gendarmes)
    For fearful knocks on his door . . .
    Siamanto imagined . . . what they would do . . .
    Refusing to escape . . . yv,
    and . . . Sang his poem:
    “I will leave with a smiling face;
    I can sing on the road to my death”

             Sylva-MD-Poetry


     

  203. Karekin, ….please…. don’t presume that you know anything about the choices I would make.  You don’t.  I am not consumed with anger against Turks and don’t blame the land (which is the soil that nourished my ancestors) for what it’s government has done.  Do you really not understand that it is possible for one’s struggle for justice to be a life affirming and positive thing?  For some of us, there are struggles in life that we have no right to walk away from.

    I wonder if I am correctly interpreting your last comment to me.  You seem to imply that since governments, including the US, have lied to their citizens to serve their own interests, that I (and others) should give Turkey a pass on its denial and distortion of its history regarding the Armenian Genocide. 

    This makes no sense to me.  You must have missed the week in kindergarten when they taught that two wrongs don’t make a right. 

  204. Excellent points to Grish and Boyajian, you hit it right on the head in response to Karekin.  There are thousands of Armenians living in Turkey right now, but most of them are not as Turkified or Turkish lovers as that, at least I am hoping that they aren’t and I know that they are not.  I’ll go one step further and say that a good number of Turkish intellectuals that are much more pro-Armenian, sympathetic and empathetic towards our reasoning and our cause than that; simply because they are educated and know the very psyche of the human kind, and furthermore they know that denial is the continuation of a Genocide and that simply it is wrong to take the bread, the soil and the crops of an entire nation, kill them on broad daylight and deport by killing the majority of them, sit on their riches and their soil for 96 years and continue to deny and commit white Genocide against their existence on their own lands when they were there first and for over 5 thousand years.  They understand and they don’t fight with us with nail and teeth without giving much thought or any kind of understanding.  Yes I’ll even go further and say that I fully respect all those Turkish intellectuals who have a bigger heart and sympathy that very few minorities that are within us don’t have.

  205. Boyajian…I am very sorry you feel so personally threatened and have assumed an endlessly defensive posture with anyone and everyone, including other Armenians.  Every word I write receives a knee-jerk reaction from you and you seem to think (WRONGLY!!!), that I don’t understand and/or respect the truth of the genocide. Well, once again – you are WRONG!  

    Moreover, you are caught in a hateful, nasty rut. You keep repeating and reliving over and over again the same stories, as if they happened 24 hours ago. You seem to be fighting all the battles that your ancestors have lost over and over again.  You live and feel like a victim, and as I’ve said, I refuse to be that person. You can if you want, but it truly depresses me, and for that reason, is not for me. I hope you enjoy your misery, but please don’t get angry with those who will not enable your dysfunctional existence and mindset. 

    For your information, 99.9% of all Armenians live outside of Turkey, and do so quite well, everywhere it seems, except in Armenia itself. There are many Armenian millionaires floating around the world, and I doubt they worry about the genocide while they are counting their millions.  So yes, whether you believe it or not, if you go to your ancestral homeland – Turkey – you will find that you are treated very well, indeed, by Armenians, Turks, Kurds and lots of other people. Hopefully, they will not know the anger that sits in your heart. 

     

  206. Gee, Karekin, it seems that I struck a nerve.  You seem a bit….

    ….angry!

  207. “[...]if you go to your ancestral homeland – Turkey[...]”  My ancestral homeland is the western part of historic Armenia which existed long before appearance of Turks on the worldmap in a geographical area that was savagely emptied of Armenians in 1915. As a result of a genocidal Turkish act my ancestral homeland is now incorporated into the Republic of Turkey.

  208. No Gor, you have your history wrong….western Armenia was incorporated into Turkey when it was overrun by the Seljuks in 1071…and then by the Ottomans. Before that, it had been incorporated into the Byzantine Empire, and before that, the Arab Empire and before that, the Persian Empire. So, it was not the genocide that destroyed Armenia, and Armenia did not disappear in 1915…that happened a thousand years earlier. 

  209. Milli İstihbarat Teşkilatı, MİT
    Guidelines for Posting @ Armenian Sites.
     
    Your mission is to appear as a ‘Reasonable Armenian’ , in order to interfere with their discourse and Anti-Turkish propaganda, and to divide their united efforts from inside. You must subtly present Armenia in the worst possible light, and conversely present Turkey in the best possible light.
    This Directive is in English to re-enforce your thinking in English. You will be posting in English.
     
     
    [1] Register  using an authentic Armenian name: use a common name that cannot be traced.
    [2] Acknowledge the so-called Armenian ‘Genocide’ (AG): except NEVER say ‘so-called’, and never use quotation marks around Genocide. Pretend you believe it happened.
    [3] Never question the AG: the minute you do, you’ll be tagged as a Turk and will lose your effectiveness. Your mission will fail.
    [4] Repeat – NEVER question the AG, but always change the subject to “the future, instead of the past.”
    [5] If  private Turk-posters questions the AG, immediately attack them: this will help re-enforce your ‘authenticity’ as an Armenian.
    [6] Never question the AG, however constantly bring up other genocides committed by the friends of the Armenians. When Armenians discuss alleged atrocities by Turks, immediately counter with the Genocide of Native Americans by the White Europeans, and other worldwide atrocities Europeans/Americans have committed and are committing.
    [7] Always divert – Never confront.
    [8] Subtly blame the Jews for the AG: divert  and dilute the blame. However, NEVER mention Jews directly. Our friendly relations with our Jewish friends and Israel forbids it.
    [9] Always conflate the AG with other worldwide atrocities: this will devalue its alleged ‘uniqueness’ and ‘significance.’
    [10] Frequently mention that you are Armenian. Throw in words like ‘our Hayastan’.
    [11] As part of your training, you had become intimately familiar with  place-names in Armenia: frequently throw in local names to give the impression you are one of them.
    [12] When Armenians bring up Seljuk Turk invasions, counter by noting that everybody invaded everybody else. “Turks are no different.”
    [13] When Armenians bring up the Hamidian ‘Massacres’, counter by asserting how happy Armenians were in theOttoman Empire.
    [14] Always emphasize how happy Armenians were in our Ottoman Empire. Blame the problems on non-Turk outsiders.
    [15] Constantly bring up the domination of Armenians by Russians and Iranians – to counter alleged domination by our Ottoman Turks.
    [16] Always emphasize problems Armenians are having in Russia today.
    [17] Always emphasize that Armenia has been betrayed by Russians.
    [18] Always emphasize that “10s of thousands” of Armenians have escaped the hell of Armenia and are living and working happily inTurkey. (NOTE: the real number is a few thousand, but you must say “10s of thousands”. DO NOT say “100s of thousands”: that is too high a number to be believed.
    [19] Armenians will counter that close to 1 Million Armenians work happily in Russia: ignore it. Do not react to it. The more you discuss it, the more it will be remembered.
    [20] Always, always remind them how much worse off they are not trading withTurkey: blame the Armenian Diaspora.
    [21] Always bring up the Native Americans whenever Turks are blamed for anything.
    [22] Never, ever respond to an Armenian poster or engage in any logical debate: whatever questions are asked, always counter-post from approved themes.
    [23] Always preach harmony, brotherhood, moving forward, leaving the past behind.
    [24] Keep repeating the following general  themes:
    – “What happened can’t be changed; let’s move forward”
    -“What happened so long ago will not help today’s Armenia: we need to think about our brothers and sister suffering in Armenia today”
    -“Armenia is losing population, because of  its failure to forget the past and move forward.”
    -“Armenia is in economic trouble, because of its failure to forget the past and move forward”
    -“Armenian is in (insert trouble)_________  , because of its failure to forget the past and move forward”
    [25] Whenever Armenians bring up the AG, accuse them of living in the past. Accuse them of playing perennial victim. Shame them.
    [26] Always emphasize how you don’t live in the past; you are not a victim; you live in the present – invite other Armenians to join you.
    [27] Whenever there is some negative news about Armenia, immediately emphasize it – regardless of the theme of the discussion.
    [28] Always bring up and emphasize negative news about Armenia.
    [29] Always tie the negative news about Armenia with Armenians’ refusal to forget the past and move on: keep repeating.
    [30] Never post anything positive about Armenia. Repeat NEVER.

  210. Sireli Boyajian,
    I think you are simply too polite to use the more accurate word – enraged! Karakin assures you that you will be treated well if you go to Turkey. It has already been shown that if you go with his philosophy, you may be given lunch with melons and turkish baths, and Gor has even suggested a free tour of the Hagia Sophia! But first, you should go on Asbarez and read the article about the 70 journalists sitting in turk jails right now. The reason Armenians go to Turkey is because they want to fall on their knees on our blood-soaked land. They want to feel between their fingers the soil their fathers plowed. They want to weep in the remains of the humble homes their families built and lived in and were exiled from. And the landscape is astonishing. It is the most unbelievably beautiful in the world. You can never forget it. Go once, and for the rest of your life, it will call you back. God gave us the most beautiful land of mountains and valleys and rivers in the entire world. That turks live there now, and we don’t, is the Cross we bear.   

  211. A clarification to Necati:  I previously responded to your suggestion that several of us posters here sit down and get to know each other and forget the past for awhile.  I didn’t mean to say that I would not sit down with you, or want to get to know you.  I would gladly do this.  What I would not do, nor could do, is “forget things.”  Part of getting to know you for me is learning about your thoughts regarding Armenians and our shared history and understanding how you make sense of all of it.  Whether spoken about openly or not, it is a question that would loom large between us and I could no more easily ignore it than I could a purple elephant standing in my kitchen.  This is only natural given the history between our nations and given several of the comments you have made on this site.
      

    In all honesty, when one is aware of the history, one realizes that too much has happened between our people to think that Armenians and Turks can behave as simple strangers exchanging social graces.  Often blacks and whites in America have this knowing wariness with each other because of years of institutional racism.  Part of getting past history to an appreciation of each other as human beings requires looking at these issues.   It is not a barrier but a bridge that must be crossed.

    A polite cup of coffee is lovely.  I drink my coffee strong and not too sweet; then turn the cup over and wait to see what it has to tell me.  

  212. Avery, thanks for posting the interesting information regarding the guidelines for Turks who post to Armenian sites.  Where did you get this?

  213. Avery, that was brilliant! I seriously think you might be on to something.

  214. Boyajian:   re MIT.

    I made it up myself. I have been reading ‘Karekin’s posts for months, and ‘he’ is the only one posting under an Armenian name, that is uniformly pro-Turkish and anti-Armenia (not anti-Armenian). I don’t know anybody else that posts on these pages that is anything like ‘Karekin’. You have been reading ‘his’ posts for months, as have others – what other conclusion can  there  be ?

    The openly Turk posters are not shy about  questioning the validity of AG.
    Even the ones that appear to sort of acknowledge it, immediately demand in the same post that we acknowledge the suffering of Turks as quid pro quo. 


     

  215. No Karekin, you have your history wrong. Under all foreign invaders and occupiers Armenians were able to preserve physical existence, semi-independent principalities, and even independent Kingdom of Cilicia. It was under the Ottoman Turks’ colonization that Western Armenians were wiped out from the face of the Earth. Neither the Byzantine Empire nor the Arab Caliphate has committed mass physical annihilation of the Armenians. Turks did. And that’s the truth. After exterminating Armenians their homeland and properties were incorporated into a newly-cooked Republic of Turkey.

  216. Avery,

    I am stunned to see those guidelines. I suspect now that Karekin might be one of those Turks. His activity is so consistent with your list of dos and don’ts for Turkish posters.

  217. Avery – again, you are WRONG. I categorically have not been either anti-Armenia or anti-Armenian. In fact, quite the opposite.  Please go back and read every word. I challenge you. What I will not support is stupidity, whether by Armenians or Turks. And, if you think being critical and towing your party line is anathema, so be it. Living in a world of fantasy, slogans and false hopes is a huge waste of time and energy. The sooner that ends, the better. What I am doing is pleading w/ my fellow Armenians to wake up and see what’s really happening to them. They are and have been manipulated into a stance where they cannot win. Do you think that’s smart or helpful to anyone?   As I’ve said before, it has been clinically proven that when someone does the same thing over and over again, despite the repetitions of results, then that’s the definition of insanity. I want Armenia (above all) to succeed. Armenians outside of Armenia are just fine, but for people who are financially secure to spend all their time chasing after a word (genocide), while real, live people all across Armenia are suffering, truly baffles me.  Yes, the genocide is a priority, but is not and should not be the top priority, as it will not solve other, more prescient problems facing our people.  Trust me, the people leaving Armenia to find work are not leaving because of the ‘g’ word…they need to help their families survive. Does that register with you at all?  Do you realize how serious a situation must be for people to take such a drastic step?  Everyone here really should consider a more Zen Buddhist approach to life…it would help immensely, because ignorance is really the enemy of self-realization and truth.

      

       

      

       

  218. I have read your posts, for months, ‘Karekin’,  on a variety of threads.
    I have read, analyzed and contemplated every word (…well, almost every word), not only your posts but others’ as well. I have a pretty good idea who cares for Armenia and who doesn’t: the intent shows through loud-and-clear, even when posters are criticizing Armenia. Very hard to conceal true love or true hate.
     

    ——————-
    Let me give you one example from your own previous post – pasted below: let the other posters judge which one us meets the definition of insanity.’

    (Begin paste)
    ———————-

    Karekin

    July 7, 2011 | 

    Please Avery – get a grip on today’s reality, which is rather grim – and stop trying to shoot the messenger, just because you don’t like the message:
    http://www.rferl.org/content/armenia_dwindling_population_concerns/24258351.html 

    Avery

    July 7, 2011 |

    no, you get a grip on reality Karekin.
    allow me to re-paste the proof below (from above posts)
    —— 
    And, let me ask….if the life in Ottoman Turkey was soooooo unbearably hellish for 600+ years, then why are you all yearning for it so much?  If it wasn’t paradise at all, but a nasty life from sunrise to sunset, why are you so desperate to get it back? What are you really asking for? What fantasy is it?
     
     
    Has someone lost their grip on reality ? show us one post where an Armenian says he/she wants to go back to the ‘Ottoman Turkey….so much’.
    ————-
    in case you forgot, the Italics are your words, as in they are your words, based on what kind of ‘reality’ ?
    when you can produce one post, just one, where ANY Armenian has said they want to go back to Ottoman Turkey, you can talk to me about ‘reality’. 
    And you giving propaganda links to dredged up dirt on Armeniadoes not impress me.
    I know all about Armenia’s population, Armenia;s economy, and a whole lot more.
    I also know all about Radio Free Europe – who they work for, what’s their agenda.
    Before producing another Neocon link, first refute  the numbers I produced that counter Forbes’s disinformation above.
     
    —————————– 
    (End paste) 

  219. Avery:    I tend to think that Karekin actually may be an Armenian, but, as I and others have pointed out, he’s one of those rarely-found-in-nature Armenian species who are called ‘shour dvats’, that is: xenophilic (in his case Turkophilic) and self-deprecating to the extent of obsequiousness. I remember one of his very first posts a year or so ago that contained not his current concern for the people leaving Armenia, but the following: “You people [meaning us, Armenians] are embarrassments. Nowhere have I been treated better than in Turkey.” I believe this confession explains it all. He has also ‘distinguished’ himself by calling our Lord and Savior “some carpenter with his magic tricks” for which he never apologized to the faithful who demanded apology for this misdemeanor.

  220. your post of July 17 is the same post that regularly appears, with minor cosmetic changes, repeating the same propaganda slogans: it has no effect, ‘Karekin’. 

    I don’t know one person on these pages that you have convinced to see things your way. Brainwashing works on the unintelligent and uninformed: you are working the wrong crowd. There are at least a dozen regulars here that are way beyond your amateurish attempts of NLP through endless repetition: give it up. 


    Every one of your assertions has been refuted multiple times by myself, and others long before me. Yet you keep repeating them as if there is no record of your and our posts, or that we have no memory. I know Turks don’t have a high opinion of Armenians and our mental abilities, but this is comical.

     

  221. Avery, hilarious.  I wondered if you made it up because it seemed to be such a perfect fit.
    I am not convinced of your suspicions, though. 

    Karekin, you may not see yourself as anti Armenian but in my opinion you have an odd twist in understanding what others write here.  You see “futile anger” where others see “pro-active justice seeking.  In my opinion you are either a careless reader or make things up to suit your unique perspective.  You don’t need to be so negative and critical of those who don’t approach the issues as you do.  Your last tirade against me was really off the mark and unnecessary.  Speaking up against the distortions of history presented by some Turkish contributors here is important and hardly constitutes an obsession with the ‘g’ word or neglect of the needs of the RA.   It’s all fair game in the ever-developing dialogue between Turks and Armenians.  Your chastising of Armenians who participate in this dialogue is suspect.

    Maybe Avery has your number, or maybe you are just ashamed to be associated with Armenians who have shaken off the yoke of the Ottoman mentality.  You’re still an enigma to me.

  222. Karekin,

    Please enlighten us about your views on Artsakh. (This will be the deciding factor on whether we determine he is a Turk or not).

  223. Karo: maybe you are right. Maybe he is just a Շուռ  տված Armenian. And I have known (some very closely)  extreme Russophile Շուռ  տված Armenians when I was living in Yerevan, but don’t remember seeing such hostility towards Armenia even from them: there was a deep love for Armenia – they cared about Armenia.  They despised what the Turks had done to us.
    I just don’t understand how someone can be so infatuated with Turkey. And like the example you gave in your last post, I too have noticed over months lots of little things that slipped though that convinced me there is more to this person than meets the eye.
     
     
    Boyajian: I understand and appreciate that you are not convinced. Someone is always needed to question the majority, sort of sanity check.
    The truth will eventually come out.
     
     
    Joseph: he has previously expressed opinions about Artsakh, and I know where he stands, but let’s see what he himself says about it. (My guess: he will not say anything to give up the game, or he’ll completely ignore you)

  224. Well, for those of you who seem to be curious, I think that Artzakh should be and needs to be re-united with Armenia as quickly as possible, and that the border lines should include every inch that was originally part of Armenia pre-1923. This would be both good for Armenia and for Karabagh/Artzakh. The sooner this can happen the better. I don’t believe that Azerbaijan has one iota of legal or historical claim to any of it. But, now that we are on the subject, I will once again state that this should be the priority for Armenia…an azad Hayastan must include an azad Karabagh, and to risk any of that would be foolish, indeed. It will also help to stimulate the food and job production that is essential to keeping Armenia alive and healthy, as well as provide water resources that are necessary. If you want to risk all of this hard earned sovereignty by spending time, energy and resources on other less productive activities, that is your right, of course. But, I for one do not feel anything is as worthwhile or as important as securing Armenia’s future. 

    I don’t know how closely you follow events in Armenia, but several years ago, someone in the Armenian government actually encouraged Armenia to sell all of its gold holdings. At the time, it was questionable…with the increase in the gold price over time, it was downright stupid, so once again, Armenians take steps that are against their own best interests….and this is not the first time. It happens over and over again. So please, stop chasing after a false rabbit running thru the woods…and focus on the chickens that are in your own garden for once. It is less risky and will pay off handsomely.

      

     

  225. Dear Avery, You hit the nail right on with your exact and also hilarious do’s and don’ts list about Karekin and his turkofile behaviour.  I have also observed him in the past few months and your observation is very well fitting.

    Perouz jan, Your post brought tears to my eyes as I would go and wish to go to our once thriving anscestral homeland of Western Armenia for the same reasons that you mentioned, that is to see and feel the soil that our anscestors fought, won wars sometimes from invadors, plowed, built and worked with their hands for numerous thousands of years.  I would like to go and see where my father and grandfather lived and built their home and how my dad described it to me the way things were before he passed away.  I have been told by a poet and a writer who went there a while ago.  He said that once you go there as most of us wish to go and see our homeland; but he said when you return the sadness of it all will overwhelms you for a good while.  Still I wish to go and see our long lost beautiful homeland one day.

  226. Dear Avery, I just read one of your latest posts to Karekin about us wanting to go back or not to Turkey.  My answer is this to Karekin: Yes, we would love to go back one day but as soon as Turkey is MAN ENOUGH AND HUMAN ENOUGH to pay back reparations to all Armenians from the Armenian Genocide in the form of our anscestral homeland, our Vana Lidge and the highlands of Western Armenia.

    ————————————————————————————————-

    Karekin,  Your words below:

    “What I will not support is stupidity, whether by Armenians or Turks.  And, if you think being critical and towing your party line is anathema, so be it.  Living in a world of fantasy, slogans and false hopes is a huge waste of time and energy.”

    What you don’t seem to get it is that you are being the stupid person here.  You have been told numerous times that a massive destruction of a nation is not to be taken lightly and not by us Armenians only but by the whol entire world.  WHY?   Because any belligerent behaviour if taken lightly as it has been about the Armenian Genocide, it shall repeat itself around the world with other nations as well.  And it has, hasn’t it?  Starting with the Haulocaust, Stalin of Russa against Russians, in Yugoslavia towards the Albanians in Kosovo, in Darfur, etc. etc.  Armenians peacefully and patiently but justly are trying to fight for their cause but not only for themselves but against any nation in the world that commits Genocide.  In short for the sake of mankind.

    Your words below again, Karekin

    “What I am doing is pleading w/ my fellow Armenians to wake up and see what’s really happening to them.  They are and have been manipulated into a stance where they cannot win.”

    “As I’ve said before, it has been clinically proven that when someone does the same thing over and over again, despite the repetitions of results, then that’s the definition of insanity”     

    Are you suggesting Karekin that we give up our fight for our cause and simply give in to Turkey’s annihilations of more than 2 Million Armenians, just because 96 years passed and we should give up the ship and run away because of the words of a coward like yourself?  And who will stand for the rights of our 2 Million befallen martyrs and the befallen martyrs of the Haulocaust,  the Albanians in Kosovo and the Darfurians?  Do you think that all of these Genocides and the Haulocaust would have happened if the first Genocide of the Twentieth Century was reprimended severely and justly by the world?  I think not.  I think other belligerent heads of states such as Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic and Omar-Al-Bashir wouldn’t have given themselves the right to annihilate and massacre thousands and millions of people if the Armenian Genocide wasn’t looked away so carelessly and negligently by the world powers and the world at large.  So you see, our plight even after 100 years is a most just plight, not only for ourselves but for the sanity and the right to live of all mankind.

  227. Seervart;
    do you know the name of your village? 

  228. But,  Karekin,  before 1994 ceasefire Artsakh was not a re-gained Armenian land. I’m trying to follow your weird logic here. Had the re-unification not been claimed and self-determination war not waged, Artsakh would have most likely remained in Azerbaijan, if not emptied of Armenians  a la Turka.  Almost similarly with Western Armenia (I’m taking you towards a conclusion that offers itself): if demands for Armenian genocide recognition cease, righteous claims for reparations and land restitution cease, efforts at international recognition cease, how do you restore historical justice for Armenians?

  229. Perouz, My father was from Palou, Kharperti Nahanq.

  230. Sorry Karekin: it would have been too easy to show your hand re Artsakh.
    Pretty convincing, has all the right phrases, and all that….
    Here is your true, negative view about Artsakh from a Post in this thread where you didn’t think people would notice:
     
    (Begin Karekin paste)————————-
    Karekin July 3, 2011 | 
    ……..And, if your view of history is so unshakable, then please tell me how and why our hold on another historic piece of ancient Armenia is so fragile, that of Karabagh?  This is happening right here, right now…it is not ancient history, yet after 80 years, it still has not been reunited with today’s Armenia. So, please fight today’s battles and win them….what’s lost is lost, so let’s try our best to keep what we have.
    (End Karekin paste)——————————-

    Notice your slip-up, mentioning 80 years: where did it come from ? from early 1920s when Stalin gave it to the fake country of ‘Azerbaijan’ ? What happened to 1994 ? It never happened ? Do you know that you can travel by car from Yerevan to Stepanakert without going through ‘Azerbaijan’ ?
    BTW, here is my response to your post above re Artsakh.

     (Begin Avery paste)———————–
    Avery July 3, 2011 |
    As to the status of Artsakh: please, ‘Karekin’, don’t insult our intelligence. Artsakh’s Armenians have never been more secure and more safe.
    The fact that that they are not united with Armenia de jure means absolutely zilch. In fact, it has many advantages.
    Artsakhtsi Warriors did not fight ancient battles: they fought and defeated a contemporary attempt to exterminate 200,000 more Armenians.
    Do you deny that ?
    (End Avery paste)—————————

     
    And the second part of your post re Gold is a classic: you just can’t help yourself; you have to throw in something, anything negative about Armenia.
    Nicely balances out the phony stuff you generated about Artsakh – keeps your bosses happy.

     

  231. Perouz, A little while back I have searched on the website my father’s birthplace in Palu and I came across the river of palu as well as the Fort of Palu, “Palui Perte” that he used to talk about.  It was built on a hill and a good many of the Palu towns were built on the north west side of the river and these were called veri kugher «Վերի Գեղեր կամ Վերի Գիւղեր»; but the towns that were built on the north east side of the river were called vari kugher «Վարի Գեղեր կամ Վարի Գիւղեր».  The major Havav town or city was built on the north west side of the river as well as the most populated towns of Khoshmat, Saqrat, and Tset.  “Հաւաւ, Խօշմաթ, Սագրաթ եւ Ցէթ (ասոնք Վերի Գեղեր են: Վարի Գեղերը արեւմուտքի վրայ կը գտնուին:  «Հօրս մայրը կարծեմ կամ Հաւաւէն կամ ալ Խօշմաթէն հարս բերած էին:»  The pictures that I saw and the countryside of my father’s birthplace Palu was breathtakingly beautiful and serene.  Unfortunately I have saved it on my favorites section but I lost the pictures with my old computer.  I wish I saved it on a disc.

    You see I have an old book all about the Armenian people and their respective towns in “Palu” before the Hamidian massacres.  the Der Hayr who wrote it was Palutsi and he was fortunate enough to have escaped the Hamidian massacres and wrote all aobut it.  «Բալու – Իր Սովորոյթները, Կրթական ու Իմացական Վիճակը Եւ Բարբառը» Աշխատասիրեց Յարութիւն Քհն. Սարգիսեան (Ալեւոր). Տպագրուած Գահիրէ 1932 ին».

  232. Perouz jan, I made an error in my post above.  Above the north west side of Palu river were the “vari qegher”, and above the north east side of the river were the “veri qegher”.

  233. avatar Grish Begian // July 18, 2011 at 11:29 pm // Reply

    Avery,
                 Some of the words that Karekin used in AW is very close to Mr. Davutoglu’s preaching, and I wonder if there is any connection between Karekin and Turkish foreign ministry regards AG, especially toward Diaspora Armenians … if you noticed, Karekin never speak of Armenians living in Armenia…he always refer Armenians outside of Armenia, especially in Turkey!!!I remember a year ago, before April 24, Mr. Davutoglu acknowledged in one of his speeches, that he will deal with Diaspora Armenians “differently”… I won’t be surprised this man called Karekin is fully aware of what he is doing…he can be a Turk, a “falsified” Armenian or even a Kurd as long as he send his Turkish boss messages for us!!!!karekin must have some education from Ankara University Faculty of Languages and History, especially in Armenian history, this is why he is so knowledgeable in order to cover up AG politically, and make his Turkish bosses happy!!Did you notice that Karekin never speak of Turkish foreign policy?? or criticize Turkish penal code 301??or jailed journalists in Turkey?? or freedom of speech in Turkey?? Karekin will never speak negatively or criticize about his beloved Turkey!!

  234. Once again Grish, you really are a BRILLIANT sleuth and problem solver!  Congratulations….you win the prize of the day!  You name it.  What shall it be?  However, in reality, you got it all wrong….I’m actually an Albanian gypsy dwarf lesbian with orange hair and a great job as head clown in Davutoglu’s office.  On a more serious note, I’m looking for an assistant right now…and it sounds like you might need a job…just let me know. You’d be great!  Please forward your resume immediately for close consideration….your application will easily go to the top of the pile.

    Gor… my point about Karabagh is that Karabagh has always been historically Armenian and the Stalin giveaway was criminal. The fact that Armenia won it back needs to be cut in stone, and made official by redrawing the borders officially and unilaterally, regardless of what Azerbaijan wants or thinks. They started the problems and they lost.  The real problem preventing this, I suspect, is Russia. If or when they give a green light, then this will happen. But, we can note that Turkey did not wait in Cyprus…and have not moved one inch 40 years after their invasion and takeover. I fully realize Armenia acted in self-defense and had every right to act in Karabagh, especially within the Soviet context of the time. But now, with no Soviet constraints, Armenia needs to act like a victor for once, not like a conquered vassal.  The waiting game is long over. Time to act so people will begin to move into Karabagh and start working. Undetermined status and lack of recognition is hurting Karabagh and worse, creating a shameful level of hypocrisy. If Armenia itself won’t recognize Karabagh as an independent entity, then who will and why would they?  Time for Armenia to be a leader, not a follower, as far as Karabagh is concerned.

       

       

       

        

  235. well Grish, I am not 100% sure who this person is, but I have certainly noticed the non-criticism of Turkey as you listed in the second half of your post. You have also noticed he is quite knowledgeable about Armenia, as have I. However, there are a lot of little gaps that I have noticed over time – he knows quite a bit  about Armenia and Armenian history, but not in a way that is genuine. Things just don’t add up. 

     re: ” this man called Karekin is fully aware of what he is doing…”
    Oh yeah – ‘Karekin’ is very intelligent, well informed, and he does know what he is doing. 

  236. Grish;
    and did you notice that his experiences in turkey as so different from mine? He doesn’t get followed. He has no concerns about pitbulls and rifles and handing over his passport. He doesn’t worry about letting the big G word slip out inadvertantly and being sent on a long ride on the Midnight Express. He isn’t avoided by turks and kurds except by those who are doing business with him. People tell him how much they like him, how happy they are to see him. and… sigh … they offer to buy him sashlik and melons – and maybe even a free guided tour of the Hagia Sophia just to gaze at the still ruined spoils of victory.  
    and speaking about gold, Grish, I have been told that the reason they follow us is because they are convinced we have returned to dig up the buried gold of our ancestors! They are positive there is still more – and they want it too! Don’t those turks just have a wonderful sense of humour! 

  237. Seervart,
    Palu (Palou) is indeed beautiful. As you approach it, you
    will see a bridge crossing the fast-running river. It is not a wide river. Hundreds
    of our unarmed young boys and men were butchered; their bodies then thrown into
    the river from the bridge at Yeprad. All the caravans from the villages of
    Palu, including Havav, passed through the central town of Palu. Many caravans
    came from Kghi and Garin. The men and boys were all butchered there. The women
    and children in the caravan were sent on to Diyarbakir. Any still alive there,
    were then butchered. There is a field near Palu that was covered with the corpses
    of the wealthy Armenians who had been held in the Palu jail. They were all
    murdered with axes and then stripped of their clothing. The government houses
    for the area were in the centre of Palu. The chief of police who ordered their
    murders was a Kurd who came to be ashamed of his part in the massacres and resigned
    from the job. He saved my father’s life. Yes, there is a fortress there – its remains
    can still be seen on the top of a very high hill. There was also an Armenian
    church in Palu where about 100 women and children stayed. Several of them died
    from hunger every day. Almost every Turkish household in Palu had at least one
    Armenian woman or girl or young boy as servant. There were summerhouses on the
    shore of the Arazani River at Degirman Deressi.
    The Arazani could be crossed on a flat raft in 10 minutes from Palu. There were
    large walnut trees, and many mulberries, as well as many kinds of fruit trees. There
    were trees with red and gold leaves that fell in the autumn – I don’t know what
    kind they were. There were clear running springs. The soil on the banks of the Yeprad
    is soft and crumbly between your fingers. It is a chocolate brown colour. I
    would think it grows good crops.
     How fortunate that your father somehow survived. 

  238. Avery, I buy what Grish suggested above.  I thought similarly since a while now, that surely he is sent by the Turkish government to make us sweat, waste our time and to drive us apart.  He may have made us sweat and wasted our times, but the opposite happened; meaning we connected with each other more than ever.

  239. Seervart;
    Khoshmat was a completely Armenian village. All the inhabitants were either exiled or murdered
    right in the village. Only three or four Armenian women somehow remained.
    When the caravans from Kghi went by, they would run out with baskets of fruit
    for them. I have often wondered what became of these women, alone in the
    village, particularly as winter closed in. There were no men left in the village. It was almost a half day walk in the caravan from Khoshmat to Palu.
    Do everything you can to go and see your village. Do without anything trivial or unnecessary and save every penny and go. I sense your yearning. There are places of such astonishing beauty that you will not encounter their likes again this side of Paradise. Karakin can write all the nonsense he wants, but if you go to your village, you will never give up your claim. 

  240. “[...] my point about Karabagh is tha Karabagh has always been historically Armenian and the Stalin giveaway was criminal.”    —-Karekin, or whatever your real name is, you conveniently chose to reply to one part of my comment leaving out my analogy with Western Armenia and our fight for justice. No wonder: anything that could directly or indirectly affect Turkey is generally avoided by you. Do you mean to say that the western part of historic Armenia was not always Armenian and the Turkish genocide of Armenians was not criminal? Do you think you act smart by touching upon one aspect of a comment you chose to respond and avoiding the other? In reality, it looks preposterous…

  241. Dear Perouz, Please get my e-mail from the editors and I wish to speak to you more with you.  Please e-mail me and I wish to tell you more about our family.  Thank you dear.  I sense that you are also Palutsi as I am.

    Best,
    Seervart

  242. Again, it seems that many of you are alot like the blind man touching the leg of an elephant and mistaking it for a tree. When will you people learn?  You should be embarrassed by this (level of ignorance), but clearly, you are not. What else can i say?  You have exposed yourselves as being blind. Now, I have no prejudice against the handicapped, but when they are violent and hurtful, then they need to be called out on it.  

    From time to time, you have all outlined an exhaustive list of negatives about Turkey. Do I really need to add more to your piles of negativity?  I think not. Am I disputing them? No. However, like Perouz, I too urge people to visit their ancestral villages…they will learn alot about their own history and how their families lived in the past. They will also realize where most of their traditions and habits come from, since much of that has not changed.  Yes, there is alot to be critical about when it comes to Turkey…there is no arguing that point…it is not perfect, but then what is?  Is today’s Armenia perfect?  If it was, I think we’d all be living there and enjoying the high life and people from Japan and China and Sweden would be fighting to get their piece of the Armenian pie. 

    The reality of history (and I’m truly sorry for continually trying to hit you with reality and facts), is that human beings have moved and migrated and conquered since the dawn of time and well before there were national boundaries on this earth. That has not and will probably never stop. Some groups of people have won and others have lost. Many have moved across continents and oceans in pursuit of riches and resources. It happened in the past, it is happening as we speak.

    My point is this – that what has happened to Armenians, while sad and terrible, is not the only upsetting story on the planet. We need to be less self-centered and realize that we are specks of humanity, and maybe, just maybe, out of all this history, that the most successful Armenians are the ones who have learned to adapt and change according to the times, their location (wherever that might be) and what is available to them. They have picked themselves up, dusted themselves off and moved on.  This is a good thing, not a bad thing. 

    As I have already said, I will not wear the cloak of a victim nor will I pretend to be a victim of anyone, not of Turks and least of all, not of a group of Armenians who seemingly will take no prisoner alive. If you continually see any and every Armenian who has had a good experience in Turkey as a collaborator or as some sort of secret agent, then you are clearly misinformed, delusional or perhaps, just out of your minds.  You seemingly yearn and long for the yergir, but when someone goes there and has a good experience, you are so hurt and offended that your knee jerk reaction is to denounce that person and their experience. Let’s just say, this is not the way to win friends and influence people…whether it be Turks, Armenians or anyone else. It’s really just crazy.  

     

  243. Perouz:
    Even though I am pretty desensitized at this stage in my life, it’s still hard to read your recounting of atrocities at Palu (Palou).
    Makes a man’s blood boil. But am glad you (and others) keep refreshing our collective memory: the young’ns need to know and remember.
     
     
    Seervart:
    I buy what Grish says too, and myself have very little doubt of who  ‘Karekin’ is  and what he’s up to: my previous posts make it quite clear.
    However, it’s better that every one us convince themselves of his agenda, based on the evidence.
    That way the conviction is firm, and when we encounter the type elsewhere – we’ll recognize and expose them quickly, because our minds went through the analysis process and have stored it in the subconscious. Otherwise, the knowledge is fleeting and is not retained.
     
    ——
     
    The latest piece of evidence: if you guys read carefully what he addressed to Gor in the second part of the post, and look below the surface – it’s obvious what his agenda is.
    Think what will happen if RoA actually went ahead and officially recognized Artsakh today. Think how the Big Dogs  will react and how much trouble they can make for  Armenia– last thing we need right now.
    As I said in my previous post above: Armenia is very wise and far-looking NOT to officially recognize Artsakh at this stage of the game: no practical benefit, and nothing but trouble.

  244. Editors and Moderators, Please give my e-mail address to Perouz.  Thank you.

    Yes Perouz jan, I am yearning to go and see my father’s land.  My dear father was a 10 year old child when they killed his father, his uncle and his 80 year old grandfather.  Then they took away his mother, his grandmother and all the rest of the women and the children, and the Turks made them all walk the death marches.  My father never saw them again, none of them.   Thanks to Kemal Attaturk’s orders, no Armenian was allowed to go back to their anscestral homeland, people were wary even for visiting their homeland for many years after that.  My father died not being able to see his homeland nor his house again.  Yes Perouz, his survival was a miracle, thanks to his young adult aunt and uncle who came and rescued him at night from their servant’s house a few years later.  My father was the only one who survived out of 14 members in his immediate family.  His young aunt and uncle lived in another town and they were most probably killed by the Turks, because he never saw them nor he heard from them again.   I would like to speak with you privately when you get my e-mail.  Thanks.

  245. Seervart: the following sites will interest you. I have contacted the editors and they are going to get back to me.

      http://www.houshamadyan.org/en/mapottomanempire/vilayetdiyarbekir/palu/locale/history.html

    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.207679859272337.52302.156826484357675

    When I go to yergir, I eat as little as possible; I try to buy fresh fruit etc. Drink nothing but boiled or bottled water. Turks know nothing about percolated or drip coffee anyway. They use only instant coffee. The tea is good – it is harvested by the Hamshems in the mountains. I bring as much as possible with me from home, including non-perishable snack foods. I buy absolutely nothing that is not necessary for immediate use. I take back no gifts, no souveniers, no mementos, except for jars of soil and pieces of rock and wild flower seeds. I usually lose about 10 lbs! When I get home, I read labels carefully. Why would I support turks by buying their figs or apricots or dates when I can buy them from California or Greece? As for buying their clothing or other textiles – I’ll consider that when  they repeal article 301 and let the 70 presently imprisoned journalists out of jail, and when I can stand on my father’s soil without turks in suits following me. You can be put  on the Midnight Express for any concoted reason in turkey. It is safest to not express any opinion on anything; not even things you would view as trivial or innocuous at home. As for clothing for women – pack “high and low” – very high necklines, very low skirts – yes, even in summer heat. Unlike Karakin who goes looking for love everywhere, I seldom attempt to speak to anyone. I simply gesture for what I need – usually for how much I have to pay to go in and see destroyed Armenian or Greek artifacts.

  246. Avery, I get it, I mean not wishing at this stage of the game to have Armenia recognize Artsakh.  Someone wisely told me a little while ago that no matter, it has been 18 or 19 years that today Artsakh is free and there is a newer generation of Armenians that has come about knowing Artsakh as a free land, like it used to be before Stalin the devil that gave it away to the tatars.

    Perouz, In my above post about Kemal Ataturk, of course I was sarcastically saying that thanks to Ataturk right after the Genocide, he gave orders that no Armenian can return to their homeland of Western Armenia.  Of course we all know that Kemal Ataturk in 1922 anihilated in Smyrna alone more than 130,000 Armenians and then he had the Greeks annihilated.  My maternal grandmother’s entire family werre 150 members, and out of 150 members only 5 of them survived.  

    =======================================================

    Everyone, also notice about Karekin, he is always saying that it’s good that we shook off the dirt out of our sleeves and made a better life in Diaspora, so let’s forget altogether about our anscestral homeland of Western Armenia and rejoice in our new found global countries.  How nice of him (sarcastically said); in 300 years if we don’t own at least part of our Western Armenian Highlands and be able to go back to our own lands, we shall become Americans, Canadians, Spanish, Brazilians, British, Italians, Greeks, Germans, Swedish, etc. etc. etc.  We will assymilate in 300 years if we don’t go back to our own lands and speak our own language, and give Armenian schooling, and teach our own history to our children, if we don’t go to our own Churches on our own Armenian soil and pray to our Christ and our God uttering Armenian prayers on our lips.  That is a knwn fact that we shall assymilate in due time!  «Մեր ազգի եւ խղճի պարտքն է որ բոլոր Հայերս այլուր եւ տարածուած աշխարհի բոլոր ծագերուն մէջ ամէն գինով պայքարինք մեր սուրբ հողերը կրկին ձերք բերելու համար մեր ապագայ սերունդի հայապահպանման դաւանանքով:»

    Սիրվարդ

  247. Thanks Perouz jan for all the information your provided me with.  It is certainly very good to know.  I’ll await your e-mail.  Thanks again.

    Seervart

  248. Karaken writes:  You seemingly yearn and long for the yergir, but when someone goes there and has a good experience, you are so hurt and offended that your knee jerk reaction is to denounce that person and their experience.

    Karekin does not tell us what this “good experience” in Turkey is, unless you are a turk. Article 301 looms above your head – anything and everything can be considered “insulting turkishness.” Ask the 70 journalists who are in jail right now. It’s not melons and shish-kebab and displays of affection and welcome like he writes.  It is highly possible that you will be ordered off your own land because it is not a “tourist spot.”
    Karekin also writes – “They will also realize where most of their traditions and habits come from, since much of that has not changed.” 
    What on earth is this man chattering on about? You will see none of our traditions and habits, and everything has changed. It’s kurds who plough our lands; it’s the turk language that is heard in our villages, it’s turk minarets on top of our churches. Those are not our children in the streets of Istanbul or in the school yards. Ours lie butchered in barren fields. Our traditions and habits did not come from turks. How offensive for anyone to suggest such a thing.

  249. avatar Grish Begian // July 20, 2011 at 6:40 pm // Reply

    Dear Seervart this beautiful song is for you!!
    SibilDesnem Ani’n U Nor Mernem‏ (Սիպիլ – Տեսնեմ
     

  250. Seervart – remember, ‘oor vor haireni yerker guh lusveen, hon hairenika voghch eh’.  I never said anything about forgetting the yergir, so please don’t put words in my mouth. But again, instead of fantasy and false hopes and ridiculous yearnings, someone needs a good dose of reality. Call it tough love, but you seem to conveniently forget that if Armenians, who represented fully 25% of the population of Asiatic Turkey in 1914 could not defend themselves – with such an overwhelming superiority – then how on earth could anything like that happen now?  The Armenian presence is miniscule and Armenia itself is in peril. And you think these are the circumstances whereby you will recapture western/historica Armenia?  I’m very sorry, but you need to speak with an adult, like me, who will tell you to stop living in fantasyland. And, it’s not that I want to bust your bubble or rain on your parade, but while you carry these feelings with you, virtually none of those in the diaspora are willing to repatriate to Turkey, nor to today’s Armenia. Yes, a few go to Yerevan if they have an income from an outside source, but that’s minute.

    You also conveniently forget that it was our very own ancestors who actually allowed the Seljuks to come in, defeat the Greeks and take over. They collaborated with them in a big way, because they (mistakenly) believed it would lead to their freedom.  We were not there, so we do not know exactly what they were promised, but those few Seljuks somehow got what they wanted and the Armenians lost – most likely because the promises they were given never came to pass. We have been losing ground ever since.  Whatever the cause, you cannot reverse history…not yesterday and not any day from the last thousand years. I might be an Armenian, but I don’t live in Armenia. I am a citizen of the world, like the other 60 – 70% of Armenians who do not live in Armenia and are not Armenian citizens at all.  

    It’s good, if not essential to study and remember history, but it is just as important not to waste time on fantasy and makebelieve.

         

          

     

  251. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 21, 2011 at 6:46 am // Reply

    Mr. Kar-oglu said….

    “I might be an Armenian” 
    There is ‘No Might’ in Armenianity
    Either you are Armenian
    Or you are not…
    There is nothing in between…

    Are you limbo Armenian
    Possessing many genes…?
    May be your grandmother was an Armenian 
    Snatched…R***d by the Turks 
    And so you were born…

    As you said “Might be”
    Your Brain Cells has Armrenian Astrocytes and denderites
    But Your cardiacmyocytes have-not
    Thus… you are confused between the two
    Which one should rule you…

    You can never combine the both
    Because one can INVADE…RAPE…SLAY…
    Hence…the other can LOVE forever
    Where thee belonged…

    If you can help Armenians being half-half 
    Publish your book like Fathiye Cetin 
    Don’t waste your time teaching us 
    Because we will never change
    As stories of genocide entered our DNA…s
    You never heard those ‘Heart Riving Stories’ 
    From anybody before… 

    SP 

     

  252.  
    Dear Compatriots
     
    It is for long time that I am reading these comments.
     
    As a practical person,I suggest to ignore “karekin”
     
    I know that Turks use psicologic means to discourage Armenians,
     
    examples are many,unfortunately I do not have much time to mention all
     
    the instances that I read about,for example, they redicule The Armenian Army,
     
    they say that if Russians do not send bread,the soldiers remain hungry,they say
     
    that they are strong and someday Armenians will ask them to be protected FROM OR BY THEM ???, lately,they are saying that Armenians, Kurds,will be massacred in Syria,so they will go to protect them !!!
    (with friends like Turks, Armenians do not need enemies).
     
    These are known and old tactics,sometimes in the past, unfortunately, functioned with our ancesters,but no more , and they know that very well.
     
    Let me write the following “it could be a part of our psicologic warefare” LET US LAUGH !!!
     
    I remember an article by Ali Brand (in Turkey, a great “pen”) “, who asks his citizens why all our neighbors do non like us, and CONCLUDES , asking, are we as we think we are ?
    (for copyright problems search the article with google ).
     
    It is usefull to mention some countries, Others than the immediate neighbors of Turks,who do not harbor simpathy to T….., Cina,India,Russia and nearly whole Europe and ……….
     
    P.S. I use here Turks as generic term, and by no means I generalize the concept,as a mater of fact, I Know that, there are many and many Turks, who are honest and very good people, and given the opportunity, milions could fellow them …..,………… someday.
     
    A notice also to this “karekin”, I will ignore anything he “may” write, free to say what he wants!!!
     

  253. Karekin-‘oghlu’ —

    You know what I think? I think you are a stubborn, unreceptive, anational, and utterly self-centered individual with characteristics of self-deprecation. How many times commentators here have spoon-fed to you that Western Armenians never represented 25% of Ottoman Turkey in 1914? The 1914 Ottoman census (which is not a reliable source of information iself, but I’m using it specifically for you to south your soul with a Turkish source) gives the total population of the empire in 1914 at 21 million people. Furthermore, according to the census, in the subdivisions of the empire with mixed Muslim-Christian population, 14.155.755 were Muslims and only 1.219.323 Armenians. Most scholars agree that by the year of genocide in 1915 Armenians on average constituted around or more than 2-2.1 million people. Do a simple math and stop making yourself a laughingstock: how do 2.1 million out of 21 million represent 25%? In reality, Armenians represented roughly 10% of the total population of Ottoman Turkey in 1914. By no means does this figure represent ‘an overwhelming superiority’ of rural, impoverished, unarmed, and disorganized Armenians who, as your ridiculously immature, flawed argument goes, could ‘defend themselves’ against state-ordered, premeditated, armed mass violence of outnumbering Ottoman Turkish barbarians.
     
    Another ‘pearl’ of this ‘citizen of the world’ with no ethnic or religious connection to his own nation, is that our ‘ancestors actually allowed the Seljuks to come in, defeat the Greeks and take over.’ No sedentary, civilized nation allows(!) nomadic invaders to come in and take over. The Seljuk empire controlled a vast area stretching from the Hindu Kush mountain range in central Afghanistan and northern Pakistan to eastern Asia Minor and from Central Asia to the Persian Gulf. How could ‘a few’ Seljuks control such vast a territory? Another childish, ridiculous argument… In reality, the invasion of Seljuk Turks into civilized areas of Asia Minor was in hordes. Barbarian, merciless warriors scorched anything on their way. To say that Armenians allowed them to come in is the most bizarre, pathetic historical statement I have ever heard. Armenians, just like all other nations who saw invasion of the Seljuks, were compelled to collaborate with this formidable force in order to play Seljuks upon their rivals, the Byzantines. This was done with the sole purpose of preserving the sovereignty of Armenia to an optimal extent while being sandwiched between two major powers at the time.
     
    About ‘losing ground’. Many ancient nations went through this in the course of history. Take Jews, for example, who had no statehood for 2000 years. But some survive because of their uncrushable will, combative spirit, and faith in justice. For the millionth time: it’s not about ‘reversing history’, it’s about receiving justice for the heinous crime against the whole nation. Are you mentally capable to appreciate the difference? Will you ever stop the ignominious mantra?!

  254. there are very good reasons for not ignoring people like ‘Karekin’, GARO.
    I have covered the subject at length on previous posts, so won’t take up much space again.
    However, this back-and-forth posting is no idle chatter: we, Armenians, are engaged in an information warfare with Azeris, Turks, and their agents: unchallenged lies and disinformation gel into ‘facts’ in people’s minds. One example: the phony “20%” Azeris keep yapping about. Ask any 3rd party and they’ll  say “…yeah, Armenians occupy 20% of Azerbaijan”. Propaganda does work on the uninformed masses. Masses vote in the West, Govs by and large do what the voters want here in the West: so we can’t afford to allow Turks and Azeris to plant lies in their minds.

    I also encourage my fellow Armenian literary warriors to start visiting and commenting at Turkish sites, particularly TodaysZaman and Hurriyet. I see a couple our regulars there: we need more. (Azeri sites do not allow comments)

    Their commenting software is primitive compared to ArmenianWeekly (the most sophisticated I’ve seen), but we need to take the info-fight to them.

     

  255. Dear Grish jan, How happy I am with almighty God Who created me to be an Armenian.  You just made me cry with that beautiful song, yes my dear compatriot how I long and wish to see our beautiful Vana lidge, our Mush, Bingoel, Palu, Kharpet, Erzeroum, Erzinga and all our anscestral lands again and relive our vast and beautiful but also sad history and our ingenious people in it.  But I wish to see before I die our Western Armenian lands to be free along with Eastern Armenia and Artsakh and populated by our people and then I can die with happiness that all our father’s, our mother’s and our grandparent’s legacy was fully accomplished.

    All of you my very dear compatriots, Perouz, Grish, Avery, Gor, our wonderful poet Sylva, Boyajian, Garo and Gina; you are all very intelligent and sensitive writers, human beings and also deep rooted patriotic Armenians, I am grateful that I met you all on these sites and I love you all for what you are and for what you stand for.  We all feel and think the same in many ways and I thank God for that.  At this time and now I will refrain from answering Karekin oghlu’s latest post directed to me as you kindly and very intelligently gave him a good answer for the sake of our just and sacred cause!

    «Վանայ եւ Ուրմիոյ լճերն են լքուած Ախթամարն է մեր արտասվում անվերջ. եւ այս բոլորը դուք տեսնում էք Հայե’ր եւ այն թողել էք բախտի պատմութեա՞ն, լոկ ցանկանալով հարցեր չեն լուծվում այս է մեզ ասում մեր կեանքը այժմեան.
    Պէ’տք է պայքարել,պէ’տք է պայքարել եւ պէտք չէ սոսկալ մահից սեփական, մահուան գնով էլ պարտավոր ենք մենք միացեալ տեսնել ՀՈՂԸ  ՀԱՅԿԱԿԱՆ!!!!»

    Հովհաննէս Շիրազ

  256. Frankly, it’s very hard attempting to reason with or to have a conversation with people who clearly do not understand contemporary usage of the English language, or choose not to understand by putting their own (slanted) spin on things. This is why such forums can be so difficult. Idiots who know little about their own history, parade as intellectuals…very sad, but please do at least a little research before spouting off. The reason the Seljuks were able to overtake us is precisely the same reason a few Spanish conquistadors (very few – less than 200) were able to overtake the 3000 mile long Inca empire….they worked with native born collaborators.  At that point in time, the Armenian ishkhans hated Greek/Byzantine rule (which was also oppressive religiously and anti-Armenian) and, unable to do anything on their own to curb their abuses, chose to work with the Seljuks. Low and behold, their strategy succeeded, but unfortunately, as happens all the time in such cases, Armenia and native Armenians got screwed after the fact. And, it has never stopped.  

    And by the way, Seervart, if your cause is sooooo sacred, then by all means, you should be going to Turkey and buying property in Palu, and Malatya and Sepastia and everywhere else, because this is what the Jews did in Palestine…for many years, before attempting to steal the rest of the land from the Palestinians. Remember, actions always speak louder than words, so follow your own advice and do something pro-active. Go there, get the land, plant your crops and live under the historica Armenian sun.  The longer you wait, the more difficult it will be. So, don’t hesitate…do it now. 

     

  257. Sorry, GARO, I won’t ignore Karekins and their Turk0-Azeri ilk. I have an obligation before two dozens of my maternal relatives burnt in a church by Turkish gendarmes in 1915. As long as I live I won’t be able to ignore Turkish denialists or mind-tilters like Karekin. This is not hate, nor is it revenge. This is righteous anger at what Turks have done to one ancient civilization and a quest for justice.

  258. more names for the literary-warrior honor roll (in random order):

    Gayane,  Anahit, Ani, mjm, jda, Joseph, Karo (same as Garo ?), Random Armenian, Berj/Berch, Daron, Diran, Hovo, the two ARs, Armen, Arsen, Alex, Katia K., Stepan, Sevan, Paul, Phantom, VTiger.
     
    (note: I have seen Phantom and VTiger @  the  Wolves’ Lair : double honor)
     
    we have a tiger-team here: the Turks, Azeris and their agents are on the ropes  here. Let’s also start regularly going  to the Turkish sites – irritate the hell out of ‘em. (if they can come to  our place and irritate us, why can’t we return the favour ? it’s only fair and neighborly, No ?)

  259. avatar ragnar naess // July 22, 2011 at 7:05 am // Reply

    As someone who has followed the discussiona on AW for a quite long time, I am surprised by the energy put into labeling people as this or that – mostly being Turks, or pro-Turkish, or assuming all kinds of smoke screens to hide their real intentions. That is if I compare it to the energy put into answering the arguments of other participators. Of course it is possible to dispell these doubts about people’s real motives, unless they are berdering on the paranoia. If we all give our real names and even coordinates as I have been doing we would be in a better position to judge the merits of eaxh others. But no, people prefer to be anonymous!!! I am sorry for this style because I believe it portays a very defensive attitudes. However, the idea of going to the Turkish discussion sites, is very good, even if it is difficult to make a debater (Both Daily Zaman and Daily Hürriyet in English operates with a maximum number of signs per post). By the way, You disappeared so quickly from the Thierault-debate, Boyajian, after I  you I was writing a book inwhich I also want to comment on my dialogues with Armenians. I only want to emphasize that I will never make any direct quotes unless in agreement with the person cponcerned. You actually have had many very good posts explaining your point of view, but again I would never cite “boyajian” without a common understanding. That is common decency to my mind. 

  260. GARO is GARO I think Karo has to be a compatriot from Armenia
    I am not sure, short name of Karen? some one else may help. 

  261. avatar Grish Begian // July 22, 2011 at 1:12 pm // Reply

    Karekin,
                  Either you act like a stupid person or you are way brainwashed by your Turkish masters!!your beloved Turkish unstable government can be exploded with political violence anytime…your freedom of speech is not European standard and your laws are modifies such a way, that your society have no control over parliament…the rule of law in Turkey is changed slightly from Ottoman’s times, not much different, only clothing changed, now you are offering Armenians go there and buy properties, how soon you have changed your brainwashed attitude toward Armenians!!there is rape and murder and killing going on in that part of Turkey, only we Armenians know what is going on in areas like Kars and surrounding area…may be you are planning another 1915 traps for Armenians of the world..or may be trying to educate your primitive Kurdish population, that 72 virgins are coming back to their homeland, where digging old Armenian cemeteries is a daily common practice to find hidden golds and sale them to your local Gendarmes and Muftis!! No Karekin today’s Armenians are not same Armenians of 1915 “naive Millet” of Ottomans…we are demanding fare justice, that what you forefathers did to our ‘weaponless’ population of Western Armenia..I am sure you are fully aware of your countryman’s mentality, a simple Christian in Turkey barely can walk during day times in Istanbul or Ankara’s streets without fear, now you are offering us to buy properties in a dangerous areas where ordinary Turks will never dare to go there as a visitor, unless you are “undercover” like yourself!! you are a joke Karekin in AW… you really boiling my blood with your turkophil brain..we want our stolen land back with protection of Easter Armenia’s government and Armenian soldiers not by your pedophile Gendarmes!! The reason Jews got their lands back, because supported by world major powers of that time…your beloved Turkey and azeBYjan paid so much oil bribe, that there will be impossible for us to fight with your corrupted government….we Armenians have patient we will wait until kurds get their lion shares from Turks, then we will deal with Kurds later on …we can wait for another 100 years…so far Ossmanian Empire shrinked to become a turkey we will wait until turkey become a wild bird and fly away from our sacred Armenian lands… Armenians are survivor race…we will keep our eyes on Western Armenia for now!!           

  262. The effusive praise for Armenians gushing from our Turk neighbors and/or their agents is breathtaking:
     
    We are children living in fantasy land [“you need to speak with an adult, like me, who will tell you to stop living in fantasyland. “].
     
    We are idiots [“Idiots who know little about their own history, parade as intellectuals…”]
     
    We are hateful [“Boyajian…you are caught in a hateful, nasty rut.”]
    (in my opinion: of all the posters here, Boyajian has been the only one that has given ‘Karekin’ the most benefit of the doubt, and has tried to be understanding of his views, such as they are: I guess no good deed goes unpunished)
     
    We are victims [“You live and feel like a victim,”]
     
    We are dysfunctional [“enjoy your misery, but please don’t get angry with those who will not enable your dysfunctional existence and mindset. “]
     
    We are living in a world of fantasy, slogans, and false hopes [“Avery – again, you are WRONG…. Living in a world of fantasy, slogans and false hopes is a huge waste of time and energy. “]
    We have been manipulated  [“wake up and see what’s really happening to them. They are and have been manipulated into a stance where they cannot win”]
     
    We are ignorant and don’t even know it [“You should be embarrassed by this (level of ignorance), but clearly, you are not”]
     
    We are blind, violent, and hurtful [“You have exposed yourselves as being blind. Now, I have no prejudice against the handicapped, but when they are violent and hurtful, then they need to be called out on it.  “]
     
    We are angry and hateful       [“…..so much raw hatred and anger expressed on these pages.”]
     
    Mob mentality is consuming us  [“Repeating a negative mantra has led to a mob mentality that is consuming otherwise sensible people, and unless you want to just perpetuate hate and anger, “]
     
     
    Well, that’s all the praise I can take in one sitting…..need a break. Later.

  263. Dear Avery, Although my kuyrigs Gayane, Aahit, Katia and Ani, they know how highly I think of them and their inputs on these sights, but I should have mentioned it at this time as well.  Thank you for pointing out all the wonderful idividuals that you caringly and thoughtfully mentioned it above as I appreciate all of them and their intelligent inputs here just as much as you do!!!!!

    I also agree with you for your suggestions and your thoughts on your second paragraph.

  264. You agree 100% with Charny, Karekin?     Wow! What an evolution! How about that he focuses on the genocide recognition and not on reunification of Artsakh with Armenia? Isn’t this your postulate: to stop international demands for justice for the Turkish genocide of Armenians and concentrate solely on Armenia and Artsakh, as if the two issues are not interrelated? Then how do you agree with Charny? Is this a jerk-knee reaction. mood fluctuations, or something more mentally serious?

  265. Sadly, 2 people were killed and 15 injured today as powerful bomb ripped open buildings, including the prime minister’s office, in Oslo. I’m sorry for the loss of life as a result of this crime, Ragnar.  Unfortunately I cannot ascertain whether or not the crime was a premeditated terrorist act with the intent to destroy and murder because the bombers didn’t leave a note on prime minister’s door containing an order from their chief perpetrator, as well as names of the murderers. But I profoundly empathize with the victims of the colossal crime as a human being, without calling the crime by its proper name.

  266. Dear Gor, I well know where you are coming from and I appreciate your unyielding spirit by reminding everyone and all of us to never shirk to protect and pursue at all times our just cause and our quest for justice to prevail for our martyrs as well as for all of us the remainders of our people and the heirs of our martyrs!

  267. avatar Grish Begian // July 22, 2011 at 2:16 pm // Reply

    Ragnar,
               I believe we are the only ones who put their real names….. I agree with you…we Armenians have very good smell, that who can be a “shit disturber” in our real cause…so far I do not see from you either…and I wonder why you likes to write a book about us, where still you are searching for information…why don’t you research and learn from independent scholars outside of AW and leave your final comments in AW about AG…you can’t be half and half and try to be peaceful Scandinavian mediator, we are not United Nation political circle here…most Armenians who put their opinion in AW are descendents of Armenian Genocide…if you ask me I am not…but I did my own research and read and analyzed and learn from “none Armenians” how my blood related Armenians terribly suffered by the hands of Ottomans and consequently lost our historical lands to jihadist Turks!!         

  268. It should be noted that there is a lot of displaced anger here, unfortunately, that gets in the way of rational discussion. Many writers, none of whom have ever lived in either Turkey or Armenia, seem to have so much pent up anger that any non-partisan, helpful sap who enters into their sight line, automatically becomes a convenient target, rather than someone to engage in a productive discussion. They could be Armenian, Turkish or Martian but, unless they agree 1000% and use the same, accepted and tired verbiage, they get shot down like birds at a firing range.

    There is a lot of wisdom contained in the question about how many psychiatrists it takes to change a light bulb….and the answer is one, but of course, only if the lightbulb really wants to change. 

    There seems to be little motivation for a change here or for real problem solving, whether it be in mindset or language or even in strategic approaches to problems. That said, perhaps it is just a lot more comfortable to sit on the outside and complain, or get angry, instead of pro-actively doing something positive with oneself or how one interacts with others. I wish it were different, but my lifelong association with and observation of the Armenian community does not make me hopeful. The rut is large and deep. Good luck getting out of it…unless of course, the rut is quite comfortable…which means there will be no change at all, anytime soon. 

     

  269. “Idiocy is the ability to be enthusiastic all the time about anything you like, so that a drawing on the wall does not have to be diminished by the memory of the frescoes of Giotto in Padua.”
    — Julio Cortázar, Author of Around the Day in Eighty Worlds

    It is futile to knock a wider view on things into the low-browed head of someone who pretends to know everything about history, but whose knowledge, in reality, is limited to a couple of clichés that conveniently support what he likes, not what historical chronicles or a group of professionals in a particular area suggest.
     
    Let’s refute his mumbo jumbo one by one.
     
    Spew no. 1: “The reason the Seljuks were able to overtake [Armenians] is precisely the same reason a few Spanish conquistadors were able to overtake the 3000 mile long Inca empire: they worked with native born collaborators.”
     
    In the scariest nightmare it is hard to imagine that Seljuk Turks—who invaded Asia Minor, Byzantium, and the Holy Land in hordes, fought Byzantine, Armenian, and Crusader armies, and who controlled an area stretching from the Hindu Kush mountain range in Afghanistan to eastern Asia Minor and from Central Asia to the Persian Gulf—were as few as Spanish conquistadors. From 1040s to 1063, detachments of Seljuk Turks numbering hundreds of thousands penetrated into Armenia, destroying cities and devastating entire districts: Ani, Vagharshavan, the Mananaghi province, Ardzin, Baiburt, Malatia and Co1onea, Sebastia, Kars, and Caesarea, to mention only the better-known sites. The period of Seljuk invasions was one accompanied by widespread destruction of human life and property. Some few areas were able to spare themselves by making agreements with the Seljuks, but the generalized fate of Armenia’s cities was sack, frequently accompanied by massacre or enslavement of part of the population. Survivors of the invasions faced starvation, since the Seljuks often destroyed crops and cut down fruit-bearing trees in the surrounding villages.

    The Seljuks encountered resistance from Armenians. In 1042, Khul Khachik Artsruni of Tornavan attempted a heroic resistance against 15,000 Seljuks in Vaspurakan. In 1042-1043, Seljuks raiding Bjni in northeastern Armenia were defeated by King Gagik II Bagratuni and Grigor Pahlavuni. In 1053 the Armenians of Surmari destroyed an army of 60,000 Seljuk Turks. From 1040 to 1070, the Armenian kingdoms and principalities simultaneously were under attack from Byzantium, but Armenia’s enmity toward the Byzantine Greeks was aroused mainly by Byzantine attempts to force the religious, Chalcedonian, issue. This led to bloody riots and assassinations on both sides. Consequently, all segments of the Armenian population did not respond in a uniform way to the Seljuk invasions: some few Armenians saw the anti-Byzantine Turks as vehicle opportunely available to themselves for vengeance against the Greeks. This, however, does not imply, as some newly-cooked “historians” here suggest, that Armenians allowed(!) Seljuk invaders “to come in and take over.” While most of historical Armenia had been subjected to sack by 1070, in several remote mountain areas small Armenian principalities, such as Gugark, Siunik, and Artsakh, continued to exist throughout the 12th century. Some parts of Armenia never succumbed to the Seljuk conquest.
     
    Spew no. 2: “[…] a few Spanish conquistadors were able to overtake the 3000 mile long Inca empire [because they] worked with native born collaborators.”
     
    In fact, a few Spanish conquistadors were able to overtake the Aztec and Inca peoples for several reasons:

    First, exposure of native populations to European diseases caused many more fatalities than the wars themselves, and severely weakened the natives’ social structures. The conquistadors brought small pox, chicken pox, and measles to South America. The diseases contracted from conquistadors moved much faster than the advancing Spanish. When the conquistadors arrived in the Incan empire (are you listening, Karekin the Historian?) a large portion of the population, including the emperor, had already died in a smallpox epidemic.
     
    Second, militarily, conquistadors had various advantages over the native peoples, most notably firearms and steel. The conquistadors were professional armies, using modern tactics, firearms, combat dogs, and cavalry tactics against unprepared local groups. The native troops were largely composed of infantry equipped with armament and armor depending in their tribal origin. Most native cultures used weapons of wood, flint and obsidian. In their contacts with native peoples, firearms were very formidable weapons due to the great impression on morale because of the noise, flash and smoke.

    Third, the Spaniards belonged to a literate society. This allowed the conquerors to have at their disposal a body of knowledge about human behavior and its history, something that no native nations possessed. Key factor leading to their domination was the ability of the conquistadors to manipulate the political situation between local peoples. For instance, by supporting one side of a civil war, as in the case of the Inca peoples, or allying with natives who had been subjugated by more powerful neighboring tribes and kingdoms, as in the case of the Aztec people.
     
    And lastly, yes, throughout the conquest, the conquistadors commonly allied with natives to bolster their numerically inferior ranks with thousands of indigenous auxiliaries. But to single out this reason for conquistadors’ speedy takeover of the Aztec and Inca disregarding other major reasons, is genuinely idiotic. Indeed, “idiocy is the ability to be enthusiastic all the time about anything YOU like”…

  270. Avery et al:    In other threads many commentators asked ‘Karekin’: if he’s so worried about the enmity between Armenians and Turks, is he posting in Turkish forums as well? He never replied and never have I seen his name in either DailyZaman or Hurriyet. How cheap and cowardly it is to press co-ethnics (if he is an Armenian) for an attitude change (as if it were the Armenians who mass murdered the Turks) and not to say a word to the actual murderers?

  271. Who’s the idiot now Karekin?  You of course, who doesn’t know much about neither the history of the Seljuk Turks’ invasions into Armenia nor the Spanish Conquistadors overtaking Aztec and the Inca people, yet you dare to parade on these sites as if you know it all when you don’t.  Before you open your big Seljuk Oghli mouth learn from Gor.  I suggest you come out clean and let the forumers and us know who you really are?  

  272. avatar ragnar naess // July 23, 2011 at 3:28 am // Reply

    mjm
    nice to hear from you in this sad situation. Thank you for the post. As you probably see now from the news the tragedy at Utøya was much bigger, at the moment the death toll is put at 84 youths killed. This is a veritable massacre. You bring up the questions of premeditation and the name of the crime and you indirectly invite a comparison with the naming of the crime commintted against the Armenians and the question of intent. I understand and appreciate the frankness with which you bring up again our discussion and disagreements of more than a year ago, and I realize that many of my views has been very provoking and even hurtful to many Armenians. however, is not this a possible frank debatre in which there are disagreements on important questions affecting the lives of many people in an intimate way? —In our case today in Norway we still have no definite answer, but the suspect is an ethnic Norwegian with extreme rightist views. He is  suspected both of the bomb explosion in the city center and the killings at Utøya. Islamofobic and  opposes the transformation of Norwegian society to a multi-cultural society. — I heard the explosion when I was in the library, incidentally copying the chapter “Genocide” in the book “Confronting evil” by Claudia Card which I will use in my ongoing work. Only when I came home did I hear what actually happened. My thoughts were many and also went to you Armenians who actually experiences this on a much larger scale, not to be compared. I was also influenced by the fact that i just have been going through in a systematical fashion the 550 pages of the 1916 publication “The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”. 

  273. yes, I join mjm in offering heartfelt condolences to the Norwegian People for the tragic loss of so many lives – particularly all those young people, assembled peacefully.
    Their families will never be the same: very, very sad.

    It seems almost inconceivable that one man could murder over 90 human beings in such a short time. 

  274. Karo:  thanks for the additional info: I am glad Armenian posters had challenged ‘Karekin’ in that manner.

    We have been accused on these pages of ‘hate': it is very illuminating to read the comments of many Turks (not all) @ Hurriyet and @TodaysZaman when the subject matter concerns Armenia, Artsakh, Cyprus, Kurds…..

    AW and Asbarez wisely do not allow some of the more vile comments from Turks here (Note: some of the same Turks that post/posted here also post at Turk sites – where Anti-Armenian rants are the norm).

    Turks and their agents who accuse us of ‘hate’ here should read the comments of their own – to see what real, deep hatred is, and is still widespread in the Turkish society. 

  275. Likewise, Ragnar, it was ‘nice’ to hear last year from you in our sad situation that lasts for 96 years. I hold a high respect towards Norway and the way of your societal life. I’m truly saddened that such a crime, which in contrast to your describing the genocide against Armenians I’d straightforwardly call by its proper name: ‘a premeditated terrorist act with intent to destroy humans and urban structures’ and not just a ‘massacre’, occurred in Norway, possibly the best country in the world in terms of living conditions and benefits for the socium. Even if in your case you still have no definite answer regarding the motives, the terrorist acts in Oslo and Utøya happened not 96 years ago in the era when telecommunications, Internet, street cameras, and high tech were non-existent, but a day before during our lives. As a ‘junior historian’, are you capable of determining, based on evidence at hand and speculations that were made known, what specific categorization the crime falls under? Even if you have no copy of a written statement of intent signed by the murderer(s), are you not able, as an intellectual, based on information that’s available in mainstream or online news throughout the globe and/or the results that the crime has produced, to ascertain what could have been the intent of the murderer(s)? You say: “[…] the suspect is an ethnic Norwegian with extreme rightist views. […] Islamophobic and opposes the transformation of Norwegian society to a multi-cultural society.” A question arises as to how you know he is Islamophobic and opposes the transformation of Norwegian society? From news coverage or his own statement of intent? If it is just an excerpt from news and not his own statement, then how can you state affirmatively that he committed a terrorist act because he opposed the transformation of Norwegian society to a multi-cultural society? On a separate note, you witness how being Islamophobic and opposed to the transformation of a society resulted in terrorism (again: not just a crime or a massacre, but a crime with name: ‘terrorism’). Can you now grasp, if a distant parallel is drawn with 1915, that being Armenophobic and opposed to losing eastern Armenian-populated parts of the Ottoman empire could have resulted in an intent for genocidal extermination even if no statement thereof could be found in Turkish archives (that most probably eliminated any such evidence) or world repositories?
     
    I send my genuine wishes of sympathy and support to the people of Norway at this sad times.

  276. Sounds like someone is just very pissed off that Armenian have lost, not only to the Seljuks, but to plenty of others, as well.  Gor’s interpretation is that the Spanish conquered the new world because they were superior in many ways….I guess you might think about making the same (painful) concession regarding those who have conquered Armenia since time immemorial, as well?  The list of our conquerors is long, very long. Were they all able to do it by waving feathers or by being incompetent warriors?  Maybe we should have been more warrior-like or at least, a bit more savvy in the strategy department?  Clearly, since we have major complaints about every era of history (oh, except the era of Tigran the Great), something was very wrong and has been for a very long time. 

    The syndrome being exhibited here is called ‘sour grapes’, or crying over spilt milk. As an Armenian, I can accept that we have been conquered, overtaken and massacred. It was not pretty. It was not fun. But perhaps if our ancestors were 1) more united instead of divided and 2) spent more time and money building fortifications instead of churches, they would have been better able to withstand such onslaughts. It’s one thing to recognize history, it’s another to continue to fight old, lost battles as if you can win them the second or third time around. That cannot happen. It never has and never will.  The Armenians are largely a diasporan people for this very reason…they have not been able to overcome their aggressors for many thousands of years. Yes, they endured, they hung on, and they made huge contributions to the development of those who conquered them, they even converted and blended into the societies of their overlords, in order to survive. The sum total of this over thousands of years is that we lost historic, western Armenia. Face it…that’s the bottom line. And, if you don’t wise up to these facts, you will lose the rest, as well. All the braggadocio in the world will not save anyone or anything, and neither will fantasy talk. Only practical, realistic steps can do it and the time for them is now, not later. 
     

  277. avatar Grish Begian // July 23, 2011 at 1:18 pm // Reply

    Yes Karekin,                      
                                This is what you wrote:
    “There is a lot of wisdom contained in the question about how many psychiatrists it takes to change a light bulb….and the answer is one, but of course, only if the lightbulb really wants to change”
    Don’t you think, that Turkish government until today lied to their population about AG??
    Don’t you think it is time to turn the light bulb “off” over penal code 301
    Don’t you want Turkish population live in a free society and have peacefully relationship with Armenians??
    I believe people like you are enemy of ordinary Turkish population….people like you run away from the truth and blame your disasters on Armenians, Americans, Israelis, or even Kurds…go ahead Karekin change that old light bulb with a newer much brighter “energy star” brand light bulb…new generation of Turkey needs to be changed…they lived in the dark for more than 96 years, people like you put hate seeds inside their hearts, to be against Armenians…same mistake by your cousin azerBYjanis.. training school kids with sniper weapon…for what??  because few evil people likes to hide the truth from their population…it is time to find real psychiatrists for people like you and those who are following your words blindly…I am sure those quiet people have their own judgements.. it is matter of a time to reject that old light bulb into new one, the newer light bulbs are brighter and won’t burn out easily and has an “energy star” symbol on it and above all they don’t need advise by a psychiatrist!!

  278. Seervart: Karekin advises you to go to Palu and buy land. I suggest that first of all you go on Wikipedia ,or one of many other sites, and find out just who can buy land, and where they can buy it. Unlesss someone is looking for “tourist spots on the water,” there are many regulations. Here are some excerpts from Wikipedia.

      “For the moment, all overseas nationals are subject to a clearance by the Turkish military
    authorities before being allowed to proceed with any purchase. This is to
    establish that the land/property is not in a militarily sensitive area, and
    that the individual is considered as suitable to own real estate in Turkey.
    Designation of land suitable for overseas purchasers is expected to be
    determined at a later stage by Land Registry Offices, based on information
    supplied by the military.
    Therefore, unlike many other European countries where most of the land area is privately owned,
    much of the land in Turkey is still held by the state.The property also has to be within a designated or zoned area in a municipality. Foreigners cannot buy in villages

  279. Ragnar,
     
    If you will, read carefully what particular terms Armenian foreign minister Edward Nalbandian used to express Armenian people’s condolences in connection with the crime in Norway (Source: Armenian News-NEWS.am):
     
    “We strongly condemn the terrorist acts, which occurred in Norway on Friday, and the organizers. We send our condolences and support to Norwegian people and the government. We are sure that the international community must struggle to eliminate such evils from our lives.”
     
    It is hardly feasible that Armenian foreign minister could have a chance to look at the statement of intent or be personally acquainted with organizers to name the crime by its name (terrorist acts) and blame the perpetrators (the organizers). Regadless, he stated that evils must be eliminated from our lives, genocide being the ugliest, for sure. For this, we must first and foremost call things by their names based on circumstantial evidence. If in the tragic case in Norway murderer(s) never accepted guilt and no written order was found to prove their evil intent, circumstantial evidence plays decisive role for criminologists, lawyers, judges or historians as evidence that, if ascertained, proves what had happened, what category the crime falls under, and which social group the perpetrators might belong to.

  280. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 24, 2011 at 6:03 am // Reply

    For every one to read …
    from famous Arab Historian Sibt ibn al-Gawzi;
    I wasn’t there…neither Servart
    Nor all my friends and our new invaders…
    Pretending friendship on our site…
    from Norway till Constantinople…

    Forcing us to forget our genocide…
    They should know…we suffered more than Christ
    Read what Honest Arab Historian wrote…
    Although he was Muslim but a real Arab-Muslim
    Not Islamatised to kill others and
    Throw innocents in valleys…rivers or far at Der-zor land… 

    From Wikipedia

    In 1064 a large Seljuk Turkish army, headed by Sultan Alp Arslan, with the help of the Caucasian Georgians headed by King Bagrat, attacked Ani and after a siege of 25 days they captured the city and slaughtered its population. An account of the sack and massacres in Ani is given by the Arab historian Sibt ibn al-Gawzi, who quotes an eyewitness saying:
    “The army entered the city, massacred its inhabitants, pillaged and burned it, leaving it in ruins and taking prisoner all those who remained alive . . . The dead bodies were so many that they blocked the streets; one could not go anywhere without stepping over them and the number of prisoners was not less than 50,000 souls. I was determined to enter city and see the destruction with my own eyes. I tried to find a street in which I would not have to walk over the corpses; but that was impossible.”

    SYlva-MD-Poetry 

  281. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those who died in the terror attacks in Norway. 

    mjm, thanks for your piercing light despite the fact that some still fail to benefit from its illumination.

  282. Karekin wrote:
    “I guess you might think about making the same (painful) concession regarding those who have conquered Armenia since time immemorial as well?  The list of our conquerors is long, very long.”

    Yes the list of our conquerors is long, because Armenian soil has been in the middle of two large continents; Asia, Europe and in the south the middle east; but you forget that the Seljuk / Osmanian Turks only came to Armenian soil within the past 1000 years.  You forget that Armenia is an anscient old country of about 5000 years.  Armenia had many conquerors; but fought and pushed out those who have tried to conquer her every single time.  Armenia had a very rich history, excellent warriors that would put to shame to a great many countries, otherwise she wouldn’t have lasted as much as 5000 years, would she?  Just because the Seljuk / Osmanian Turks today are sitting on her soil for the past 1000 years, of course only after massacring the defenseless vast population like a “genig abla” un-manly fashion; you cannot re-write the rich Armenian history by putting down her bravest and super intelligent warriors.  It is written in our history books, read the real Armenian history books about our vast and rich history.  You seem to put on a pedestal your Turkish ruthless conquerors just because they have sat on Armenian lands after killing the defenseless Armenian population in an un-manly fashion.  It was the Romans who sought that Armenia has become a very strong nation, then they conspired the Persians against us to weaken Armenia.  Our brave, intelligent warriors of 70,000 fought against the vast 300,000 Persian army in the battle of Vartanants.  They didn’t win the battle but they won the war by maintaining our Armenian Christian faith.  Do not, I repeat do not underestimate the Armenian brave and intelligent warriors.  Not to worry, the time will come again as it has during the Artsakh war when a few thousand Armenian fighters won the war against AzerBYjan.  I cannot imagine a braver and a more intelligent fighters than the Armenian men of arms who won Shushi that is situated up on a cliff.  Our men of arms found a way to climb up the cliffs and win Shushi back.  As an Armenian, I couldn’t be more proud of our men of arms and our brave intelligent warriors than today!!!!!

    Do not worry Karekin oghlu, the time will come when we shall have our Western Armenian lands again.  

  283. Perouz jan, Not to worry my dear I am not that naive.  If I listened to the likes of Karekin oghlu during my life span, I wouldn’t be alive and kicking today to write these few posts.  I didn’t even have to go and read Wikipedia kuyrig jan, to know that especially in Turkey one cannot purchase lands easily.  Is he kidding me? We would be lucky enough to visit anywhere in Turkey and come out of there alive, much less to purchase a land, and who would let you to purchase?  They’ll skin you alive before granting you the right to buy lands in Turkey as an Armenian living outside of Turkey.  Nothing has changed in 96 years, nothing. 

  284. Grish – you still don’t seem to understand and you insist on attributing words to me that I’ve never uttered – even once. For a start, why would I – an Armenian – blame Turkish disasters on Armenians? That’s total nonsense, so please stop. 

    And since you clearly don’t get it, the concept behind the metaphor of changing the lightbulb is that if you want to see changes in Turkish society, there will have to be a desire within Turkish society for that change.  So, I pose the question: what are YOU willing to do, in a pro-active, positive sense, to help generate that change? 

    We do not live in Turkey, we do not vote in Turkey, we have no control over anyone or anything withing the government of Turkey.  You seem to prefer screaming and expressing your anger at a blank wall that will not change. For me, that’s a waste of time.  Since the wall will not change, rather than throwing eggs at it,  I will plant flowers and trees in front of it, I will paint pictures on it, I will put lights on it and make it the best, most attractive wall anywhere. If it hides the truth of the wall’s ugliness, well, that’s all I can do, isn’t it?  None of my tools will allow me to break down the wall, because, as with the lightbulb, for that to happen, there has to be something going on inside of it that can grow and expand and slowly cause the wall to crumble. Maybe a seed from one of my plants will grow roots that will over time, create a crack, where water will seep in, and will freeze in winter and break open the wall.  

    This is the only way you will see things change in Turkey. It must come from witihin, because screaming at a wall never produces any results other than a sore throat.

       

      

       

      

         

         

  285. It is ironic that a cold-blooded killer, a soulless criminal, a militantly far-right ideologist, and a freemason Anders Behring Breivik has guts to accuse Ottoman Turks of genocide of the Armenians, the Orthodox Greeks, and the Assyrians in his 2083: A European Declaration of Independence manifesto, while a law-abiding citizen, a liberal, a human rights activist, and a junior historian Ragnar Naess staunchly avoids calling Turkish crimes by their proper name. Ironic, indeed…

  286. Karekin, I don’t often agree with your negative spin on things, but I found the following image quite pleasing:

    “Maybe a seed from one of my plants will grow roots that will over time, create a crack, where water will seep in, and will freeze in winter and break open the wall. ”

    Hope your plants bring down that wall, but I also wish you would stand out of the way while other Armenians write books, make movies, plaster posters on the wall or otherwise proactively chip away at that wall.  There should be room for all of us to work for Armenia’s best interest.  I don’t fear Turk’s negative opinions of Armenians which comes from ignorance of the truth.  It just tells me we have much work to do.

    In a previous post you refer to Armenians as suffering from sour grapes because we don’t want to accept that we ‘lost.’  I disagree with this criticism because I don’t think we lost the war yet, just a battle.  This inspires many to persevere for justice.  So go plant your flowers, and I may join you, but I will also pick up a shovel and pick axe and do some of the heavy lifting.

      Caution: Falling Rocks

  287. Karekin wrote:
    “For a start, why would I – an Armenian – blame Turkish disasters on Armenians?”

    After reading your posts one wouldn’t know it, would they?  I mean that you really are an Armenian man.  Why would an Armenian be very submissive, fawning and caressing to the extreme towards the Turks to forget that it was the Turks who practically annihilated an entire nation and the Armenians are the ones who have the upper hand to demand their rights from the Turks, whether they get their just demands now or later, but the fight must go on.  Your scrutinizing the Armenians rather than the Turks is not laughable anymore, but sad very sad – it is disgustingly sad.  Isn’t it obvious that all the harsh attitudes and the scrutinizing should be addressed to the Turks and not the Armenians?

    How can one change an entire society when the Turkish government continues to school their children with hatred towards the Armenians and their minorities in Turkey such as towards the Kurds, and school them the denyal of the Armenian Genocide that such a thing never happened? That yet the opposite happened, that it was the Armenians who were the perpetrators and blame the Balkanian wars and annihilations on the Armenians when the Armenian nation was wiped out by the Turkish government with a premeditated Genocide of the Armenians.  How can the Turkish child grow up anything normal when their government gives them military education in the primary schools and or in the high schools?  The children in Europe, Australia, Canada, Egypt, USA and elsewhere are never obligatorily educated to have and acquire military education while they’re children, trying to get primary education.  That’s up to the boys and girls when they leave their primary and their high school desks if they want to join the army, but it is never obligatory while getting primary education before college years.  And why has Turkey to this day and age has the penal code 301 set against anyone who utters the Armenian Genocide?  How can anyone with a sober mind and logic believe that the Turkish people can think on their own when they grow up after their initial education in Turkey, and not hate Armenians, Kurds and every minorities in Turkey, other than Turks?  I don’t think the Turkish child growing up in Turkey is given the right to think for himself/herself or to know the truths about their history when they live in a caged atmosphere.  I maintain that the Turkish people don’t have the freedoms that most of the rest of the world has it; freedom of speech, freedom of buying lands, freedom of thoughts and the expression of those thoughts, freedom of moving around without fear, freedom of knowing the true world history and finally the freedom of knowing the true Turkish history; their own history.  I truly feel sorry for the children of Turkey who don’t have the luxury what the children of the rest of the world has it; complete human freedom.  And how can anyone believe that these caged children and the population will be able to know the truths fo their history and act accordingly when they are fed the opposite?  The Turkish government belligerently know very well what they are doing; because their caged population will not change to be sympathetic nor understanding towards the Armenians nor to the Kurdish people in a thousand years.  Therefore Karekin oghlu, what you are saying is made up of plenty of rubbish and we are not buying it.

  288. My thoughts and prayers go to the families who died in the terror attacks in Norway.  It’s a sad day when one sick-minded person gives himself the right to kill so many innocent children and human beings.

  289. Seervart, Yes, the Turks educate their youth with lies… and yet, more and more Turks who, today,  are learning/learned the truths of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. More and more, as they mature and learn truths of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation… too, that Turk leaders today still attempt to eliminate evidences and sites of the Armenians from their own lands of nearly 4,000 years. Recognizing truths via nations and organizations/historical data and more is learned. Too, recognition and, too,   acknowledging the dishonesty of the lies of Ottoman muslim Turk mentality.

  290. Sireli Seervart: The AW cannot forward your email to me. I understand their position completely. I think we are all aware that wolves in sheep’s clothing read these columns. Turks pretend they are Armenians in order to gather information. Pseudo Armenians chat up people on-line in hopes of ensnaring them in their million dollar “investment” schemes. The internet is a place where we all have to excercise caution. While none of this applies to well-intentioned people like you and me, the AW has no way of separating the sheep from the wolves. God willing, we will run into each other in Palu one day. If your father’s family had any wealth or position in the community, the men would have been held in the jail. Many starved to death in that jail. It was so crowded that all of them could not  even sit. Think about normal human body functions happening in that confined space. One of the men was a ship’s captain and very intelligent. They were all axed to death in a field just outside of Palu. The women and young girls were either taken as servants, or were sent with the caravans that ended up in Diyarbekir. This is where all the caravans from this area ended. The Palu and Havav area is soaked with Armenian blood. It is a sacred place. The men in grey suits ordered me out of the area. I wonder if the Armenian church in Palu is one of those the USA govt is going to pressure Turkey to return to us.

  291. Came accross an interesting passage in the comment of a professor of criminal law at Oslo University regarding the recent shooting spree in Utoeya Island, Norway.

    “Prosecutors will consider whether Breivik’s acts fall under a 2008 law on crimes against humanity”, said Staale Eskeland, professor of criminal law at Oslo University. “To kill a group of civilians systematically is the basic criteria” for charges of crimes against humanity, he said, adding that the maximum penalty for this offence was 30 years in jail, rather than 21 years under the anti-terrorism law.”
    [Source: ‘Norwegian killer probably insane, his lawyer says’, Reuters]
     
    Interestingly, to kill a group of civilians systematically is considered in Norway the basic criteria for a crime to be qualified as a crime against humanity, not a written statement of intent disseminated by the perpetrators. That is: the circumstantial evidence of systematic killing is the basic criteria for a crime against humanity. I understand you and your co-nationals are in grief and, as a descendant of a victim of genocide, share your pain. But in case you’re still following this discussion, Ragnar, take a note of what Norwegian experts say, if you will.

  292. Boyajian….I am not and have no interest in being in the way of anyone. What I want to see is some Armenian success, in my lifetime and I certainly do not want to see Armenia or Karabagh fail. Now, if that means changing course and changing my mindset, then so be it. I’m very tired of the endless and needless rants….because I find them to be a waste of time and counterproductive, as well as depressing in their lack of accomplishment.  So yes, I’ve been to historic Armenia several times and have enjoyed every minute of it. Does it bother me that it is under Turkish control?  Not really. It has been under the control of many others along the way, but I was able to walk on historic Armenian land, smell the air and drink the water. The dziran in Malatya were not bad, either. I just think Armenians are making a huge mistake by turning their backs on what is rightfully theirs. Like I’ve said…go and enjoy it. You will be very happy that you did and believe me, you will regret for all your life if you don’t. That’s all. 

     

  293. “I’ve been to historic Armenia several times and have enjoyed every minute of it. Does it bother me that it is under Turkish control? Not really.”
    How can a true Armenian person be in Western Armenia and not be bothered that his grandparents’ ancestral lands are now under Turkish control? One should be a desensitized bust*** not to be bothered by that.
     
    “Armenians are making a huge mistake by turning their backs on what is rightfully theirs.”
    Trying to follow the ‘logic’ here… Visiting Western Armenian lands is not considered turning backs on what is rightfully ours, but demanding justice, advancing international recognition, political advocacy, organizing seminars, making academic contributions, and staging boycotts and demonstrations is considered turning backs on what is rightfully ours?!
     
    “I’m very tired of the endless and needless rants….because I find
    them to be a waste of time and counterproductive.”

    Then
    why pop off on the pages of the Armenian Weekly? Why, for once, not tell the
    Turks in Daily Zaman or Hurriyet that their endless and needless rants are a
    waste of time and counterproductive? Or theirs are not?

  294. avatar Grish Begian // July 26, 2011 at 10:33 pm // Reply

    Dear Karekin,
                                 You have reached a point, that you have no other choice, but to show your leadership to all of us …it is time for you to buy a property and let us know the location …I will be the first to join you around Ani ruins …make sure your property clearly written “karekin Inn” as I suggested you before…I am sure your Christian grand ma will tell you, where would be the best location to buy your property, as you told us that you will take her advise very seriously !!and of course, make sure that if you have a gold teeth pull them out, and leave with your friend Nekati, because tour beloved head won’t last more than a night…the very next morning local kurdish or turkish gangs will hand over your toothless head to a local Gendarme or Mufti for  “head prize”!! 
     The Road to America
     

  295. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 27, 2011 at 6:53 am // Reply

    Norwegian Massacres and The Armenian Genocide, Until Today…!
    (Norwegian Island of Utoeya in 2011 and Armenian Anatolia of 1915)
     
    I don’t know why…I strongly cried… 
    And how I cried… Today…
    Viewing videos of ‘Norwegian massacres’ 
    And remembering  ‘Our Armenian Genocide’
    Which was almost a century before
    I never saw …but heard from my granny 
    Still I can feel her tears…scolding my years  `
    I cried…for our unlucky nation 
    And the Norwegian youths
    Who didn’t cause harm to any soul
     
    I cried today…strongly cried 
    Feeling with their mothers, fathers, lovers, relatives, friends
    And everyone who lost loved-one, recently or long before
    Those who lost 1.5 million innocent armless humans 
    By slayers who refuse to recognize…our lost lives… 
    Our deep lanced caves of our heart valves…
    Still stay rive… can’t heal…
    Every human should recognize…our pain and every pain 
    As we are all humans… we belong to humanity 
    We should have faith…
    Before naming our religion, ethnicity, nationality or race 
    Faithful to every cause…that sears human lives
     
    Don’t execute this slayer…
    (I don’t want to give or remember his name) 
    But, let scientist study his slaying gene…
    His Y-chromosome from which DNA arrived 
    To vanish so many lives…!
     
    Might the souls of those honest victims
    Will guide the scientists 
    To discover the criminal-gene 
    Those who want to slay more 
    And continue to commit genocides…!
     
    Sylva-MD-Poetry
     July 25, 2011 

    ________________________
    Norway was very late to recognize our genocide…passed by one vote by Kurdish MP
    as far as I can remember…I need to go and investigate in detail…   

  296. Karekin,A famous Ottoman chronicler of the 17th century namely Kyatib Celebi in his “Jihan Numa” had a special chapter titled “About the Country Called Armenia” illustrates clearly;Quote:the Armenia vilayet consists of two parts -Greater & Lesser…Greater Armenia extends well into Iran and is known by the name of Tourman Akhlat.It borders the Lesser Armenia,Rum,Diyarbekir,Kurdistan,Azarbaijan & Aran.Its length covers the area from Erzen-el-Rum(Erzrum) to Salmas,while its width-from Aran to the end of Akhlat vilayet.Its capital is Akhlat.In my opinion Greater Armenia at present consists of the Van & Erzurum vilayets,whle Lesser Armenia-of Adana & Marash vilayets.In the Takvim-el-Bouldan(this is the Statistical Data book of Abul Fida,an Arab histiographer & geographer which served as a source book to Kyatib Celebi) the following cities are mentioned in Armenia:Elbistan(a town in Cilicia in the Zeytun caza of Marash province),Adana,Arjesh,Azarbaijan,Bitlis,Barda,Bilekan,Tiflis,akhlat,Debil,Sultaniye,Sis,Tarsus,Malatia,Van,Vostan,Erzen-elRum & Malazkert.Unquote
    I do hope that the above might put a stop to your historical falsifications.

  297. Why doesn’t it register that our historic Armenian lands fell under Turkish control a thousand years ago???  This is not new news!  And, to make things worse, we were never able to recover control over them. If those facts do not make sense to you, then something is very wrong. It is like the Navajo or Cherokee hoping to take back North America. Ain’t gonna happen…sorry. And, with people leaving today’s Hayastan in droves…you’re wasting your energies on western Armenia?  Please all – get a grip!  You are pouring a cup of water in a useless corner while the whole house is burning. Very sad, but your priorities are all wrong, and counterproductive as well. 

  298. Sireli Perouz, Same as to my compatriots in here, I also love and respect the editors of AW, they love us back and protect us and I know exactly where they’re coming from.  They are a bunch of very caring and smart people.  Perhaps we shall meet in our Western Armenian lands someday.

    During the AG, my father told me that plenty of the death marches used to come to Palu from Erzeroum and then to Kharpert Kaghak, and we know what happened to those poor souls from Leslie Davis’ writings when they reached Kharpert as the gendarmes took them about half hour to one hour walk from Kharpert to the wilderness and then killed them in ditches that the Turkish soldiers created beforehand to throw the Armenians in them.  Perouz, when they made the women and children walk the death marches from Palu to Diyarbekir, do you know if they killed the women and the children in and around Diyarbekir or made them walk to Der-el-Zor and then killed them?  Did you hear or read anything more about the Palutsi women that walked the death marches?  I just wish to know about my grandmother, my great grandmother, aunts and the children, and what happened to them.

  299. “[...]you’re wasting your energies on western Armenia.”  No, at this historical stage we are focusing our energies on recognition of Armenian genocide, advancement of Armenia, and security of Artsakh, collectively. All three represent ONE national cause in which the exclusion of one element will be to the detriment of the other.

  300. Nice try VTiger, but I highly doubt that anything will put an end to Karekin’s agenda of deterring Armenians from fighting for justice for our western Armenian lands.  I don’t think he is open to seeing things from different points of view.  Let’s not waste too much energy on such debates.
     
    But I appreciate the information you shared.  I am always happy to learn facts that can be used to support the Armenian Cause.  Some people want to gloss over Armenian history and pretend that our national rights ended with the Seljuk conquests.  But your citation above illustrates that we were seen as a separate nation by Turks as recently as the seventeenth century.  This is significant and other more recent examples exist as well. 

    We are a distinct people, we were recognized by Turkey as a distinct people right up to the time of the genocide, and we were targeted for elimination because of this distinction.   Today our historical remnants are still targeted for destruction and ‘conversion.’   Our genocide happened and its destructive forces reverberate still today.  We are a people with a just case against Turkey and any ‘Armenian’ who fails to recognize this is not looking at the whole picture honestly.  I don’t object to growing flowers in front of the wall of denial in hopes that their roots will slowly bring it down, but I don’t believe that flowers alone will achieve justice.   Handing Turks beautiful bouquets of the flowers we grow won’t help them open their eyes to the truth.  They will only smile and revel in the beauty of the ‘Turkish’ flowers.  They need to know the truth of our shared history in order to mature as a democracy and we must tell them with the confidence that comes from knowing we have a just case.

    The Treaty of Sevres remains a historical and legal document that we can draw inspiration from even if it can never be fully achieved.  At least it demonstrates to the world that less than a century ago, the world powers recognized the legitimacy of our national and territorial claims, even though they lacked the will to back it up.

  301. Boyajian, The Sevres Treaty is still a legal document and Armenia can pursue and demand it through international legal channels, through the Hague as a free country.  The Wilson Arbitration Award is another legal document in our favor. 

  302. re: but I highly doubt that anything will put an end to Karekin’s agenda of deterring Armenians from fighting for justice for our western Armenian lands. “
    (Nebuchadnezzar)
    Tank: I knew it. He’s the one.
    (Rooftop)
    Morpheus: Do you believe it now, Trinity?
     
    Well, do you believe it now, Boyajian, that ‘Karekin’ is the anti-one ? (an Agent): what ‘Armenian’ would constantly attempt to deter other Armenians from seeing that justice is done ? presumably because we are ‘wasting time’ on this or that ?
     
     
    re: I am always happy to learn facts that can be used to support the Armenian Cause.”
    Precisely: one of the little recognized benefits of exchanging comments here is that we learn new things from our fellow Armenian posters, and sometimes even non-Armenian posters. So thanks to ArmenianWeekly  for providing the facilities for us to learn from each other. And thanks to people like VTiger who provide little known, but crucial historical info.
     
     
    Right you are Karo: AG recognition effort is a potent weapon; Turks are terrified of it. It keeps them off-balance, forces them to devote time and energy to fight it, keeps them on the defensive, limits their options for mischief vis-à-vis Armenia+Artsakh, and also limits the options of Western Neocons as far as causing harm to Armenia.

  303. Well said Karo.  I agree completely.

  304. avatar Grish Begian // July 27, 2011 at 10:26 pm // Reply

    Did you guys notice that karekin changed his turkic voice again he keep telling us that Armenians have lost  their historical land to turks…now he is telling us that “we” have lost our historical land to turks!! Hey karekin are you sober now, or still needs some more raki from Nekati???I am expecting in your next comments to act like a  %100  Armenian Christian warrior, like “Vardan Zoravar”!!

  305. I like your analysis Karo, very good indeed.

    And VTiger thanks for the historical facts.

  306. Ragnar,the here below article was written by Hasmik Hovhanisyan & published in December 2007.Probably you know about the subject “Bodil Bjorn”,but just in case you did not know,it might help you with your research work.Quote:
    When we finished shooting the film,” said Jussi Flemming Biorn, “The director, who had been an atheist all his life, said, ‘I now have no choice but to believe in God.’  I thought that it could not have been any other way – throughout the shoot there had been all sorts of lucky ‘coincidences’, even miracles, as if someone up above truly wanted this movie to be completed.  Throughout production, it seemed as if we always ended up in the right place at the right time.”
    Norwegian Jussi Flemming was in Armenia to select Armenian music for his movie entitled They Call Me Mother, about his grandmother Bodil Biorn.

    “There are people,” said Jussi, “Who have been real heroes, and whose mission has required more effort and courage than the first people to the North or South Poles.  One of them was Bodil Biorn, a person who embodied the ideals with which Norway has moved forward today.”

    In 1902, a Danish woman, Emsy Collet, founded a union called the Women’s Missionary Workers, located in Copenhagen.  Within this movement, schools were opened which preached the Bible, funds were raised for charitable purposes and – one of the main objectives of the union – missionaries were sent to Anatolia to work with the Christians there.  Of all the organizations operating in that region at the time, this stood out as the smallest and the only one consisting solely of women.

    Bodil Biorn was the only Norwegian of the twenty-two women sent to Western Armenia by the organization.  She was born in 1871 in the Norwegian city of Kragero, into a family of wealthy ship owners.  The building that is currently the Kragero City Hall used to be her family home.  Bodil was one of the few girls who went to school at that time.  Girls were simply refused an education then, but her paternal uncle was the principal of a school in Oslo and he admitted her there. 
    In 1909, after Bodil graduated from school, she was sent to Berlin to study music for two years.  She was then supposed to marry and start a family, like all girls of her time.  But Bodil chose a different destiny.  Bodil trained as a gynecological nurse, joined the Women’s Missionary Workers, and left for Western Armenia.  The living and working conditions there were very different from those in her native city of Kragero.  The Christians were living in conditions of constant oppression and persecution.  In those days, when women had only just received the right to vote, Bodil opened orphanages, schools and free hospitals in Western Armenia, gathering a staff consisting only of locals, whom she trained.  She spoke Armenian, Turkish, Arabic, German and English.  Bodil worked in the Near East for more than thirty years.
    She was in Western Armenia when the Armenians were massacred.  But in 1917, Bodil was forced to flee from Eastern Anatolia to escape the Ottomans.  She left for Norway, only to return just a year later to the newly independent Republic of Armenia.  Four years later, she was forced to flee once more, this time to escape the Soviet authorities.

    Bodil continued her missionary service in Syria.  She lived with her son until her death and was especially close to her grandson, Jussi Flemming Biorn.

    Bodil Biorn died in 1960, at the age of 90.  After her death, Jussi had come up with the idea of both a book and a movie based on his grandmother’s life.  The significance of Bodil’s work also lay in the fact that she had left journals and numerous photographs, which spoke in great detail not only of the massacres and the related tragedies – starving and emaciated orphans – but also of the daily life and culture of the people who lived in those times.

    Jussi left his job as an advisor in the energy sector, found a director who agreed to shoot the film and a producer who was willing to cover the costs, and began shooting in 2004.

    In the film, currently in post-production, Jussi facilitates a meeting between the past and the present.  He is sent along the footsteps of his grandmother to Syria (Aleppo and the desert of Der-Zor), many regions of Turkey and Western Armenia.  He tries to find the people who grew up as children in the orphanages established by Bodil, as well as other people she had mentioned in her journals.

    The film has a number of aims.  When Bodil fled from Western Armenia, she took with her to Norway an Armenian child, whom she said she had adopted in Mush.  She only mentioned that the child, whom she had named Fritjoff, had had brothers and sisters, and that his father’s name had been Petros Safaryan.  Bodil had refused to give other details, and rumors started going around that the child, who had fair skin and blue eyes – resembling Bodil greatly – was in fact her biological son and not adopted.  Fritjoff’s son Jussi has tried to find his real roots – were they Armenian, or Norwegian?

    “The other aim is to focus not only on the tragic events, which is often the case in movies related to the Genocide,” said Jussi, “I want to present the many cheerful stories with happy endings that Bodil had written about.”

    One of those stories was linked to an amazing coincidence which they had witnessed while shooting the movie.  Jussi was telling a story from Bodil’s journals to the Armenian community in Aleppo.  It was about a family who had escaped from the Turks during the massacres by hiding in a well for a few days, without food or water.  They had then managed to escape with the help of a Turkish officer and had fled to Syria.  The family consisted of four girls, their father and mother, who was pregnant with a fifth child.  After he completed the story, one of those present left and came back with someone else, who then told Jussi that that had been the story of his family and that he had been the unborn child at that time.

    A memorial stone to Bodil was made in Aleppo.  It now stands in her native Kragero, opposite City Hall.  “They knew of Bodil’s family in City Hall,” said Jussi, “But they didn’t know that their native city had borne a true heroine.  People know very little about Bodil in Norway.  She is buried in a very modest grave in Oslo.  A year after the installation of the memorial stone, City Hall recognized the Armenian Genocide as a historical fact.  This could be the first step for official recognition by Norway.”

    Another coincidence occurred when the crew were shooting in Gyumri.  In 1921, Bodil had set up an orphanage in Gyumri, then Alexandropol, which had then been closed down four years later by the Soviet authorities.  Jussi had used the photographs and journal descriptions to determine an approximate location of the orphanage.

    “At one point, I just felt that we were very close and I asked the driver to stop the car.  We stepped out and saw Ludwig.”

    Ninety-year old Ludwig knew the story of the orphanage well.  He had grown up in an American orphanage and remembered that the children of Bodil’s orphanage (around thirty people) had slept two to a bed, but had had no lack of food or clothing.

    In Western Armenia, their expensive camera broke down when they were shooting in Van.  “We had rented it in Oslo and didn’t know what to do.  If it had been in Istanbul, it wouldn’t have been a problem to find a similar camera.  But there was nothing we could do in this distant place.”

    The Kurd accompanying them came to the rescue.  He found a small recording company that worked to provide video coverage of weddings.  The company owner had a month ago coincidentally bought the same make of camera that the director had been using.  It was very expensive and too complicated to use for weddings, so the man was delighted to rent it out to the foreigners.

    “What was funny was that people would ask me in Western Armenia, ‘Are you looking for gold?’ as they would ask prospectors a hundred years ago.  They wanted to become partners in the deal.  I used to say, ‘Yes, I’m looking for gold, but this is a different kind of gold.'”

    They Call Me Mother will be shown as part of the upcoming Golden Apricot film festival.  An exhibition of Bodil’s photographs will also be organized simultaneously.

    Jussi Fleming also presented Bodil Biorn’s story in Yerevan, at a conference dedicated to the 40th anniversary of the establishment of Genocide Memorial.
    Unquote
     
     
     

  307. Karekin,yes we were occupied for a thousand years but we survived on our lands until the Genocide.Many other countries as well were occupied but were not massacred & ethnically cleansed as we were.As Christian millet we overpaid our taxes (records could be recovered from Ottoman archives in case they are not evaporated together with other…) & even in 1942 Armenians (Armenian muslims inclusive,yes very bizarre) together with other minorities of Greeks & Jews were subjected to the “Capital Gains Tax” & whoever that could not pay was deported to Askale (near Erzrum) & perished there.This law applied to all provinces in Turkey & not only the major cities.Taxes paid is a very important point in our struggle.
    Our land,wealth & properties were confiscated & this does not mean that we cannot claim these back as it has started with insurance companies or the American base…
    No the American Indians cannot take back north America but they have regained some rights like reservations & so on.Nor Armenians at present will be able to recover western Armenia but this does not mean that we cannot claim back our wealth,properties,churches,monastries & other.
    We do not need to wait for Turkey to recognise the Genocide to claim these back.The embargo imposed by Turkey on Armenia is one of the main reasons why Hayastan is in dire situation.Turkey objects the Gaza embargo but embargoes Armenia for almost 20 years.What is Turkey’s objective in doing so?Is it only because of the Artsakh issue or so many other?Turkey knows very well what our rights are & above all that we have started claiming what is ours.Oil pipelines,railtracks,airports run & are built through & on our properties.Shouldn’t we fight back?Is this wasting our energies on western Armenia or pouring a cup of water…?
    Our rights & claims are in trillions & whatever we can grab back will definitely help Armenia,Artsakh & our nation.Is this counterproductive?

  308. Avery, I have simply accepted that he, like Ragnar Naess, operates from a less than open agenda and I take everything with a grain of salt.  I also believe he is succeeding to distract us into debate with him which turns out to be no honest debate at all.  Just a derailing.

    Seervart, I didn’t mean to suggest that Sevres had no ‘punch’ left to it.  I agree with you.  Do you know of anyone who is working on pursuing the Treaty of Sevres and the Wilsonian Arbitration?

  309. OK blind people who touch an elephant and think it’s a tree, once you get western Armenia back, then what will you do with it?  Will you do something you can’t seem to do in today’s Armenia?  Come on now, be specific, be practical.  Tell us….since Armenia is such a huge success – despite not even recognizing Karabagh that our fedayees fought hard to reunite with – how do you plan to duplicate it in Anatolia?  THe reality you don’t want to face is that Turkey’s economy is 1000 time larger than Armenia’s and there is no sign that it is going to change or reverse. I wouldn’t mind if you were talking from strength, but you are talking from weakness, as if you are carrying a sledgehammer, when all you have is a plastic spoon in your hand.  

    The only way anyone on the planet can move a large stone is by employing physics….you would get a lever and use LEVERAGE to move that stone. Where is your leverage regarding Turkey? Please show me?  If you can, that would be very persuasive, but so far, no one here has shown me more than a plastic spoon. I’m on your side, but please folks…get real. As I’ve said before, stop living in fantasy….because in the meantime, the world is passing you by and Armenia’s situation becomes more desperate day by day. This is not a winning strategy, I’m sorry to point out to you.

      

      

         

  310. Avery, never saw the Matrix, and Karekin may or may not be the anti-one, or one of “our muslim brothers.”  Doesn’t really matter who he is as long as those who understand the Armenian Cause as a multifaceted issue (“recognition of Armenian genocide, advancement of Armenia, and security of Artsakh,”) continue the struggle from all possible angles and avoid spending too much time and energy futilely trying to change the minds of stubborn Turkophiles.  I agree with you that posters here can serve up valuable rebuttal to anti-Armenian diatribes and pro-Turkish propaganda, but we should keep our focus on the goal not the distracting side-skirmishes.

    But if he is an agent, that tells me that Turkey truly fears us, knows that we have a legitimate claim, and will go to any lengths to stop us from advancing our cause.  We can be encouraged by this and all the more active in the face of it. 

  311. sorry Boyajian, didn’t know you had not seen Matrix. The reference to the ‘one’ and the ‘Agent’ would make sense only if you’d seen it. (‘Agents’ were specific creatures: not the same sense as our everyday use of the word ‘agent’). You should see it. It’s a deep movie in its message. Will help you see the political world of machinations in a new light.

    And yes, Turks and Azeris truly fears us: you can tell by their hysterics and obsession with Armenia. The delusional public pronouncements of their leaders vs. those of ours. No self-confident nation  would act the way they do towards a tiny nation of 3-4 million that cannot remotely threaten them. They  sense that their castles are built on quicksand of lies and self-delusion. They sense that their paranoia is well founded: their enemies are out to get them.

    And no it’s not Armenia. Turkey’s inexorable  return to their Islamist roots will bring  it into a deadly clash with the Judeo-Christian West. Whether fair or not, the West, particularly Europe,  cannot tolerate a dangerous Islamic state at its doorsteps. It will be dismembered, just like the Ottoman Empire. Europeans have realized that allowing millions of Turks into their countries was a big mistake: Turks are a mortal danger to the existence of Europe as a Western Judeo-Christian civilization. 

    We Armenians have to make sure no harm comes to RoA+Artsakh, help develop the industry and human potential and….wait, and wait, and wait for the ripe fruit to fall into our lap.
     

  312. PART1
    The relentless Turkophile  Agitprop and Anti-Armenian disinformation continues unabated.
    We therefore have no choice but to relentlessly and cheerfully counter said disinformation. No, please, no need for thanks: it’s our pleasure.
     
     
    re:  “…. once you get western Armenia back, then what will you do with it? “
    Why do you care  what will we do with it ? Did you ask your Turk buddies why the occupied Western Armenia is mired in poverty, and stuck in the 1950s developmentally, and only the Western part ofTurkeyclose toEuropeis developed ?
    But since you asked, how does Armenian access to the Black Sea grab you ?
    Will it reduce RoAs trade transportation costs by at least 50 %, possibly up to 90% ? Yes.
    Will it remove RoA’s dependence on unreliableGeorgiafor transportation ? Yes.
    Will it reduce the costs of transportation access to rich Western markets ? Yes.
    Will that help develop trade and hence business opportunities in Armenia? You betcha.
    Will our people have beautiful Black Sea beaches to go to vacation ? Yes.
    Look around the world pal: see how landlocked countries compare to countries that have access to the world’s oceans.
     
     
    re: “Tell us….since Armenia is such a huge success – despite not even recognizing Karabagh that our fedayees fought hard to reunite with – how do you plan to duplicate it in Anatolia?”
    Oh gee, that’s so touching ‘….our fedayees’:  and how does that phrase gibe with ‘…Anatolia’  again ?
    See pal, you can’t fake true love. Every so often something slips thru that shows where your true sympathies and allegiance lie.
    Back to Artsakh: more than once I have answered why RoA is very wise NOT to recognize Artsakh.
    Turks and their Neocon masters would like nothing better than for RoA to make that mistake, so they can use it to cause massive problems.
    Atrsakh is de facto part of RoA. Absolutely NOTHING to be gained by de jure recognition: NOTHING. When the time is right, when EU, USA, etc recognize it, then RoA will follow suite. They don’t recognize it ? who cares. Artsakh is being developed every day: what’s the problem ? Security ? Since when recognition has prevented invasion ? Artsakh’s security is her battle hardened, very capable Defense Force, backed by RoAs very capable Defense Force. End of story.

  313. PART2
    re: “…reality you don’t want to face is that Turkey’s economy is 1000 time larger than Armenia’s and there is no sign that it is going to change or reverse.”
    Nope: not reality;  another piece of pro-Turkish, anti-Armenian disinformation, easily refuted.
    2010 Armenia GDP about US$17 Billion. (Est)
    2010 Turkey GDP about US$960 Billion. (Est)
    960/17=56. Let’s round it up to 60. Not even 100; so where did you get 1000 from ?
     
    OK so this still looks pretty bleak for Armenia, doesn’t it ?
    Nope: it looks great. Here is why.
     
    ARMENIA
    Progeny  of corrupt and inefficient Soviet economic system.
    Landlocked.
    One friendly neighbor to the South.
    One questionable neighbor to the North.
    Two hostile neighbors to West and East bent on its extermination.
    No reliable transportation routes.
    No reliable access to Western markets.
    Devastating earthquake.
    Independent only 20 years.
    Devastating war. Massive shock to people’s psyche.
    Huge percentage of scarce national resources expended annually  to prevent national extermination.
     
     
    TURKEY
    Darling of the West due to being adopted by the West for their Cold War against the Soviet block.
    Beneficiary of 100s of Billions, possibly approaching Trillion (in today’s dollars) of
    accumulated wealth of Armenians, who were simply ‘disappeared’, and their wealth stolen.
    Stolen liquid and illiquid wealth was then used to develop industry and commerce.
    Long unrestricted  shoreline to Black Sea and Mediterranean Sea.
    No hostile neighbors threatening its existence (they threaten others).
    Independent 90+ years.
    Has received 100s of US$ Billions in assistance from the wealthy West and USA.
    Military budget subsidized by the wealthy West for being part of NATO.
    Brand new modern factories designed and built in Turkey by Europeans (Germany) that produce consumer and white goods for the European, US, and Middle Eastern markets.
    Unrestricted, tariff-free access to the rich markets of the West.
     
     
    I could go on for several pages, but it’s enough to make the point.
     
     
    Now let’s look at a couple of other numbers (2010 Estimates)
     
    Armenia Per Capita GDP:  $5,700.
    Turkey   Per Capita GDP: $12,300.
    Bulgaria Per Capita GDP: $13,500.
    Greece  Per Capita GDP: $29,600.
     
    Why Bulgaria? because they are in the same neighborhood.
    They were under the inefficient Soviet system until about 20 years ago,
    same as Armenia.
    Yet their Per Capita GDP is higher than the Turks’: any questions ?
    Tell me again how great the Turks are: in 20 years Bulgarians caught up and surpassed the Turks.
     
     
    Why Greece? because they are in the same neighborhood.
    They were under the efficient Capitalist system.
    Their Per Capita GDP is 3 times that of Turkey: any questions ?
    Tell me again how great the Turks are: Greeks and Turks have been the beneficiaries of West’s largess.
    Yet Greeks are doing 3 times better: any questions ?
    And Greeks are great people, but we all know they like the good life and are not particularly hard working, right ? 
     
     (all the stats above are from CIA Factbook available online)
     
     
    With all the stuff being thrown at us, we are doing OK, not great, but OK.
    Just imagine of what we could do with just a little more favourable conditions.
    Can anyone NOT believe that we’ll do really, really GREAT  in 10, 20, 50 years ?
    Anyone ?

  314. Karekin, Turkey is  not a ‘large stone’ but a wannabe power that is better described as a pile of rock fragments collected from the destruction of homes, institutions and churches of the peoples indigenous to the region.  We can move those rocks one at a time if we must, by coordinating our plastic spoons and by passing out more spoons to Turks who want to see what lies under these rocks. 

    Your glass is always half empty isn’t it?  How glum.

  315. The fact is, territory is not what makes any state or nation successful and there are plenty of examples on hand, such as Switzerland, Hong Kong, Lichtenshtein, Malta, Denmark, etc.  The point is that Armenia (yes, w/ Karabagh) can and should be successful as it is. Perhaps if it was a booming success, the issue of historic territories would be solved more easily, or could be more accepted as they are, at least for now.  But, to keep putting this on the table as if it will solve Armenia’s problems is just a false equivilency and a waste of time. You all need to remember that historic Armenia was not conquered and taken over as a remote colony, as was the Congo for Belgium or Cuba for Spain, where the conquerors lived halfway around the globe. The Turksih conquerors set up shop in the heart of Anatolia and then in Constantinople. To think that you will get them to abdicate at this date is pure fantasy. We could not stop it then, we cannot stop or change it now. Of course, you might WISH for that to come true, but the reality is very, very different. 

    The end of imperial empires allowed many colonized nations to regain independence, but note….they also maintained strong ties with their conquerors on the economic, political and social levels.  The demise of the Ottoman Empire was quite different, as you know. Ties with most of its former territories were cut. Western Armenia was absorbed, while eastern Armenia came out of the Soviet Union, not Turkey. 

    And while I am very happy to celebrate the past and our history, I feel that the real key today is to take steps to secure our future. The only way to do that is for Armenia to be strong and self-sufficient and secure.  If, after all this time Karabagh, with an Armenian majority continues to be elusive on the issue of reunification, then even talking about reuniting with the other 4/5 ths of Armenia that are now part of Turkey is total lunacy. 
        

      

      
           

  316. before you spew out more propaganda and disinformation, why don’t you explain to the audience here why you deliberately manufactured a piece of pro-Turkish anti-Armenian lie “Turkey’s economy is 1000 time larger than Armenia’s “ , were caught at the lie, and continue spewing misinformation as if nobody notices.

  317. avatar Grish Begian // July 29, 2011 at 4:46 pm // Reply

    Avery,
                        You absolutely right about Karekin….what he is trying to tell us “Armenians must forget about Genocide and Western Armenia” everything else will be fine in the future and Turks will open their border!! This is exactly what Turkish foreign Ministry politically forcing Armenia “drop the claim” and forget about AG!!

  318. Just looking for rightful compensation and reparations for the massive crime committed against Armenia by the nation of Turkey.  These would go a long way to securing Armenia’s future.  Turkey may always be bigger, stronger and have a larger economy than ours, due in large part to what was stolen from us.  So what?  All the more reason to pressure Turkey to face its responsibility toward Armenia.  Open minded and peace loving Turks are always welcome to join us.

  319. Avery, thanks for those informative posts.

  320. avatar Marguerite // July 29, 2011 at 6:31 pm // Reply

    I am a pure armenian and very proud to be one.I am not apostolic.
    It is a heresy to say that a true armenian is apostolic.Heresy.Heresy

  321. Boyajian, No I don’t know of anyone who is working on pursuing the Treaty of Sevres nor the Wilson Arbitration Award.

  322. Karekin,since you agreed with Mr. Israel Charny…here below is the ’12 Ways how to Deny Genocide’ prepared by same honourable Mr. Charny:
    Quote
    Twelve Ways To Deny A Genocide
    By Israel Charny
    These 12 methods were originally called “Templates for Gross Denial of a Known Genocide: A Manual” in The Encyclopedia of Genocide, volume 1, page 168. These 12 tactics have all been followed (or perhaps more the more accurate word is pioneered) by the Turkish Government, in its Genocide denial campaign.
    1. Question and minimize the statistics.
    This is one of the biggest distractions to the main issue itself. By claiming that the numbers are exaggerated or inflated, and that only a few hundred thousand were killed, not over a million, they try to completely side-track the entire issue. As if a few hundred thousand would not have been a genocide as well.
    2. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers.
    The claim that Armenians cannot be trusted because they may want reparations is like saying no victim should ever be heard, because they are biased in their pursuit of justice.
    3. Claim that the deaths were inadvertent.
    As a result of famine, migration, or disease, not because of willful murder. Also mention that Turks/Muslims died too at that time – without mentioning that they died on the battlefield, not at the hands of their very own government.
    4. Emphasize the strangeness of the victims.
    The victims were infidels (Christians), a fifth-column, and not “good” Ottoman Turks.
    5. Rationalize the deaths as the result of tribal conflict, coming to the victims out of the inevitability of their history of relationships.
    Check. Armenians and Turks could not share that land anymore since some Armenians might prefer independence to being second class citizens.
    6. Blame “out of control” forces for committing the killings.
    They often blame the very Kurds they later struggled to keep down.
    7. Avoid antagonizing the genocidists, who might walk out of “the peace process.”
    Turkey refuses to even open diplomatic relations with Armenia because it talks about the Armenian Genocide.
    8. Justify denial in favor of current economic interests.
    Undoubtedly Turkey’s number one weapon in denying the Armenian Genocide. Constant threats to the west the military contracts worth billions will be canceled have worked wonders in legislatures considering the issue. In fact, the debate over whether to officially recognize the genocide in the west is clearly not about whether it happened or not – since it very clearly did – but on just what economic/diplomatic repercussions Turkey has threatened or might retaliate with if they do recognize a 90 year old truth.
    9. Claim that the victims are receiving good treatment, while baldly denying the charges of genocide outright.
    Show how a few thousand Armenians were not killed in Istanbul as evidence that 2.5 million were not killed/driven out in Anatolia.
    10. Claim that what is going on doesn’t fit the definition of genocide. At the time of writing (September 2004), the European Union, the Secretary General of the United Nations and even Amnesty International still avoid calling the crimes in Darfur by their proper name. There are three reasons for such reluctance:
    A. Another misconception is the “all or none” concept of genocide. The all-or-none school considers killings to be genocide only if their intent is to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group “in whole.” Their model is the Holocaust. They ignore the “in part” in the definition in the Genocide Convention, which they often haven’t read.
    B. Since the 1990’s, a new obstacle to calling genocide by its proper name has been the distinction between genocide and “ethnic cleansing,” a term originally invented as a euphemism for genocide in the Balkans. Genocide and “ethnic cleansing” are sometimes portrayed as mutually exclusive crimes, but they are not. Prof. Schabas, for example, says that the intent of “ethnic cleansing” is expulsion of a group, whereas the intent of “genocide” is its destruction, in whole or in part. He illustrates with a simplistic distinction: in “ethnic cleansing,” borders are left open and a group is driven out; in “genocide,” borders are closed and a group is killed.
    C. Claim that the “intent” of the perpetrator is merely “ethnic cleansing” not “genocide,” which requires the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. The U.N. Commission of Experts report of 2005 took this way out. It confused motive with intent. (Ironically, the U.N. Commission report even included a paragraph saying motive and intent should not be confused, an exhortation the Commission promptly violated, itself.) Even if the motive of a perpetrator is to drive a group off its land (“ethnic cleansing”), killing members of the group and other acts enumerated in the Genocide Convention may still have the specific intent to destroy the group, in whole or in part. That’s genocide.
    11. Blame the victims.
    Perhaps the most insulting tactic of all. Saying that actually it was the Armenians who were massacring and wiping out Turks.
    12. Say that peace and reconciliation are more important that blaming people for genocide.
    This is often heard from Turks, American government officials and others who have clearly never been victims of genocide. Much like telling a man whose mother was raped and murdered by the next door neighbor that it is more important to get along with your neighbors, this will never be accepted by Armenians who deserve and need an apology and reparations. They need an apology from Turkey now not only for the genocide, but for the nearly century long denial and miseducation campaign that took place, the continued mistreatment of Armenians in Turkey, the blockade of Armenia since the early 1990s and the post-genocidal war taking even more Armenian land.
    Unquote
     

  323. Karekin,since you agree with Mr. Israel Charny then please google him & read about his ‘Twelve Ways To Deny Genocide’.AW seems does not let me copy & paste.THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT DOCUMENT FOR US TO REFER TO EACH TIME TURKS DENY THE GENOCIDE.

  324. Great news from your favourite country, Karekin-Bey:
     
    Hurriyet March 2011: Gap between rich and poor widens in Turkey. A total of 13 million people living in poverty in 2009, up from 12.58 million in 2008.
    (my note: this is official Turkish statistic, which are invariably distorted to conceal (in Turkey’s favour) the true nature of everything in Turkey.)
     
     
    Hurriyet July 29,  2011:Turkey’s imports increased 41.1 percent over the same period of last year and reached $22 billion.
    (when you import more than export, country’s  standard of living gradually goes down)
     
     
    TodaysZaman Jul 29, 2011: “Foreign trade deficit soars by 79.2 percent in June”
    (when you import more than export, country’s  standard of living gradually goes down)
     
     
    Hurriyet Jul 29, 2011: “Turkey’s military command echelon resigned late Friday from their posts amid an ongoing spat with the government over the growing number of arrested generals. The mass resignations, which marked a first in the country’s history, immediately caused a state crisis.”
    (this is wonderful news: the Kemalist vs Islamist clash is getting ripe. Coming up –  a military coup or civil war: either way would be great for Armenia)
    (the long awaited breakup of the artificial state of Turkey may be finally starting: the fruit is ripening faster than I thought)
     
     
     
    That’s all for now.
    From time to time we’ll bring you more cheerful news from your homeland, “you know”, to kinda-sorta balance the bad news from our homeland you keep throwing at our face.

  325. Boyajian, it is my pleasure.

  326. Sireli
    VTiger: you wrote, “They need an apology from Turkey now not only for the
    genocide, but for the nearly century long denial and miseducation campaign that
    took place, the continued mistreatment of Armenians in Turkey, the blockade of
    Armenia since the early 1990s and the post-genocidal war taking even more
    Armenian land.”
    For those who continue to think that the effects of genocide have ended, read Seevart’s
    heart-breaking plea for more information about what happened to the victims of
    her family. She is desperately trying to find out if everyone was murdered when
    they reached Diyarbakir, or if the caravan was sent out from there to the
    desert. She is looking for an invisible thread of hope that at least one of
    them somehow escaped. Seervart knows, as do all Diaspora Armenians, that we did
    not grow up surrounded by the warmth of a large extended family. We grew up
    with our families lying butchered and naked in deserts and on mountain roads
    with vultures picking out their eyes and cleaning the flesh of our children
    from their bones. And this generation, and the next, and the next, and the
    next, ad infinitum, wants the butchers brought to the international courts of
    justice. And they will be. The likes of Karekin can babble on and on about
    moving on, but every day the Diaspora is stronger than the day before. And
    every day we are more determined. We are a growing tide of strength and
    determination to seek justice in the courts. And the world is listening.

  327. Avery,you forgot to mention the unemployment rate of approx. 12% + inflation rate of approx. 15%.In today’s hurriyet Yusuf Kanli writes;
    Quote
    Since the absolute ruler decided so,(he means Erdogan the fascist/comments by me VT) all the economists of the country joined in hailing the strong Turkish economy and ruling out any fallout of a new global economic-financial crisis on the Turkish economy. No one of course would wish Turkey suffers from a crisis, but perhaps it might be wiser to consider some measures further than an assertion that this time the crisis will not even pass Turkey tangentially.
    Anyhow, since the absolute ruler says there is no crisis and Turkey will not be affected from a new global crisis even tangentially, let’s look at another crisis which has been one of the factors feeding growing conservatism in the country for some time…
    Unquote
    Let us also do not forget that 10-12 years ago Turkey went bankrupt & begged for IMF’s help without which God knows what would have happened.

  328. Sireli Groong Avery; thanks for bring us  “news from the homeland.” Gives Karekin something to chew on along with the complimentary kebab and melon in Istanbul, where he goes  to have a “good time.” The rest of us go to the homeland as pilgrims, not good-time Charlies. We go like Seervart would go – looking for answers, looking for a thread of hope for our  families. We go thoughtfully, meditatively, prayerfully. And… sigh… unwanted, unloved, unlike Karekin.

  329. Karekin,what will I do with western Armenian once it’s given back?Well,to start with I’ll pamper myself by having a shave, may be even have manicure & pedicure.What is with you?As long as it is given back to its righteous people it’s to us what we do with it.The call of the land & the spirits of our massacred ancestors live in us.This is nature & you want to change nature?All migrating birds return to their birthplace to give birth.

  330. While Nero fiddled, Rome burned. Again, while it might make you feel good and boost your pride to continue talking about lost Armenia, the fact is, we still have not secured Karabagh in any official way that is recognized as legitimate by the international community. When will that happen?  I’m waiting. Of course, I want Karabagh to reunite with Armenia, but if that cannot happen, why on earth do you think such a thing can or will happen with the lost provinces in Turkey?  There is absolutely no support for that in the international community anywhere. So again…you are talking about fantasy. Where are the adults in this discussion?  

    The other thing you need to remember is this…while you can go after an individual, a politician or a ruler, unless there’s a world war and one side loses decisively, you can’t go after a country. Again…it’s a fantasy. Now, I’m not saying Turkey is innocent of anything or that it should not offer an apology, reparations or more, but no one here has shown me how any of that will happen. When atrocities are committed anywhere in the world or when there are human rights abuses, you will notice that the world goes after individuals and holds them responsible. Please tell me which living individual can be held responsible for the genocide?  Please, I beg you to tell me, and then we together can file a lawsuit, have a trial and see them punished. 

     

  331. Who cares about international community?Abkhazia,South Ossetia,Artsakh or even western Armenia?Do you think that we’ll give back Artsakh after so much bloodshed & the sacrificed lives of our children?Naturally we’re going after the inheritors of the Ottomans.Who else do you think when those criminal individuals are dead or rightfully assasinated by our heroes.It seems you have not read the 12 points of Mr. Charn(that you admired/agreed) & specially points 2 & 12.Lawsuits have started & they will not stop as long as Turkey wants to be considered as a member of the international society.So many individual cases at the European high courts have already been won & this will not stop.Floodgates have been opened.Do you think that Turkey itself will survive with its Kurdish 25 millions plus the 15 millions of Alevis?Aspirations of liberty,freedom & independence can be supressed by killings for a limited time only.It is inconceivable that the Kurds will not get their independence.Impossible.

  332. Dears Avery and VTiger, Thank you for your more than justified and informative essays as you meticulously pointed out to Karekin and also to the world to see what is going on with Turkey who is still conspiring against all Armenians, because of her belligerent premeditated Genocide during and beyond 1915 that they still deny it vehemently for 96 long years.

    Perouz jan, I believe I said it in here before that I read a book written by two Paloutsi sisters who survived the death marches while the whole Caravan of women and children from Palou probably at Shaaddin in Der-el-Zor in the Arabian deserts were thrown in the Shaaddin huge ditch and were burned to death by Turkish genbdarmes.  I wished to know that perhaps one or two of my great uncle’s children were spared from it and perhaps they were adopted in Dikranagert or (Diyarbekir) by the local Kurdish or Turkish families.  I also wished to know where my kins died, so that when I go to Western Armenia one day, I’ll go their place of death and light a candle and pray for their souls as well as for the souls of our entire nation who parished like innocent angels not knowing why they were killed.  You see, my family were attractive people and there is a possibility that at least one or two of the children were adopted.  Anyhow Perouz jan, you wet my eyes while reading and writing all of this, it is certainly heartwrenching.

  333. Karekin-Bey:

    before you spew out more propaganda and disinformation, why don’t you explain to the audience here why you deliberately manufactured a piece of pro-Turkish anti-Armenian lie “Turkey’s economy is 1000 time larger than Armenia’s “ , were caught at the lie, and continue spewing misinformation as if nobody notices.

  334. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // July 31, 2011 at 6:16 am // Reply

    Every one should read what turks write to us …this is their standard he is 47 years old
    Read the their English language…He live outside still want to kill us… 

    im not live in turkey but for nationalist and fashist like you when it happend war betwween greeks or armenians i wil be in first rows of front against you trust me they are many turks kazaks azerbaijans turkmens who want to destroy your armenia caled country ….PRAY TO MOTHER RUSSIA TAHT YOUR STATE IS STEEL LIVE!!!
     
     

  335. Sylva jan, who is this 47 year old Turk who is uttering these hateful words against Armenians and Greeks?

  336. Sylva jan, Did you see the video “Aghet” created by the German officials in Germany?  In it there was Turkish mobs that went into a museum and pulled and tear down all the Armenian Genocide posters from the walls in an angry rant.  Furthermore, there was very angry mobs on the streets that were ranting and yelling against the Armenian Genocide.  It doesn’t matter who this guy is, I have since  begun to now it as you have found out about that unfortunately there is a great deal hatred and intolerance that still exist till today in Turkey against Christian Armenians and Christian Greeks; but not from the intellectuals nor the educated Turks.  The ones that are acting in a deragotary fashion are obviously the ones that have been schooled against Armenians and Greeks from their initial school desks and years.  It is both frightening and very sad for them and for everyone.

  337. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // July 31, 2011 at 4:10 pm // Reply

    Dear Servart…
    We should read middle and lower class peoples’ mind…As they are 99%.
    If we hear elites and educated group…they represent may be less than 1% of the population…In Turkey even less than 0.5%…If you open videos you can see what they write
    Go and read…you will get shocked…They are the same as they were…Be aware…
    I want to teach them…But they answer you the way, they were brought at in their homes…
    I can send as many letters as you want…They call us gowers..Kuffar…words starts by F*** and so on…Those are the real turkish populace and not what some here speak about them …the educated group left, like many writers and Mr. Orhan Pamuk…They are untrustful will remain what they are…

    SP 
     

  338. Have you ever heard of a typo?  I meant to say 100 times, but whatever it is, the scale is huge. Please stop ignoring the extreme poverty that exists all over Armenia…the vacant factories, the empty villages, our compatriots living in shacks with no heat in the winter and no real bathrooms, or clean running water. Your rants about Turkey are a total distraction and do nothing to solve the real problems on the ground in Armenia – which are severe and unable to be solved with cheap sloganeering or tough fantasy talk. My point is not to defend Turkey, but to point out to you that it is a collosal waste of time and energy…there are bigger fish to fry in our own backyard.  I prefer to spend my time helping Armenia and Armenians, rather than on something I have no control to fix or correct or change.

  339. Yeah I have heard of typo. How come your typos always endeavor to show Armenia in a bad light ? How come you didn’t typo in the other direction ? say 10 ?
    You did mean to say ‘1000’, because of your innate disdain and contempt for Armenia and Armenians. You can’t help it: it shows through the false screen you have created – every time.
    You got caught with hard evidence, so are trying to slough it off to ‘typo’: nice try pal, but no cigar.
     
     
    And your rants about Armenia are a total distraction, are disingenuous, destructive, denigrating, and disgusting disinformation.
    But we are not distracted.
    Out love for our Nation, for our People pierces  through all the Anti-Armenian Turkophile fog being thrown up by you and your pals like a 10 million candlepower searchlight.
    Always has, always will.

  340.  Avery; Karekin tells us that he has been to yergir “many times,” yet he writes about the lack of clean running water and toilets in Armenia but not in Turkey!!  Go outside of the major cities, and they charge 50 cents to use a hole in the ground with flies buzzing around. At the entrance of Ani, you pay $1 to use the “toilet.” I never flushed a toilet in Turkey outside of a hotel. You pay to straddle a hole. The better places have water swirling around the hole.  As for running water – go into any of the villages and the only running water I ever saw was running in a creek or a river. I have seen groups of women down at the shore washing their clothes in a branch of the Euphrates River. I have seen women washing dishes in creeks. I never saw that in Armenia. This may be another typo.

  341. Dear Avery, I have felt the same as you did.  It’s both amusing and also very sad Karekin’s ways.  Like Boyajian once said it to Karekin: “Your glass is always empty, isn’t it, pal?  How glum”.  She put it well, didn’t she?

  342. I meant to say above; “Your glass is half empty”.

  343. DEAR Marguerite
     
     I WORK,SO RARELY I READ REGULARLY THE COMMENTS,I AM ARMENIAN AND APOSTOLIC,FOR THAT MATTER,I WANT TO COMPLIMENT WITH YOU,YOU ARE RIGHT,
    AS IN MY FAMILY,THERE ARE 3 EX “ODAR”, EVEN NOT ORIGINALLY ARMENIANS OR HEARD OF US!!! (A CATHOLIC,PROTESTANT AND ORTHODOX, ALL EX FOR NOW),BUT WHAT IS IMPORTANT,THEY ARE NOW AND FEEL ARMENIANS,AND YOU HAVE TO SEE THEM HOW THEY DEFEND US.

  344. thanks for the eyewitness testimony  Perouz: although I have seen stuff on video, nothing beats seeing it with your own eyes. And Seervart, I remember quite well what Boyajian said. I have to say she is being very nice and understanding towards Karekin-Bey, probably the only one on these pages. Even that didn’t stop the mean-one from insulting her on this thread a few posts above.

    She did put it well with “Your glass is half empty”. However, she’s being a lady with this guy. He doesn’t deserve it; just the same we need people like Boyajian to calm things and take an opposing view for balance sometimes.

    My own view is that it is far more sinister than just half-empty: there is a conscious, deliberate Anti-Armenian agenda on his part.

  345. This is very interesting and small changes are only now beginning in Turkey after nearly 100 years because the main issue WHICH HAS NOT REALLY CHANGED is that the military fascists took over in 1913 and are still in control.  From that angle, everything that followed makes complete sense if you are a militant fascist.  Also, Wilson’s Armenia did not happen not because it was unreal or unjust but because the genocide was a success because THERE WERE FEW ADULT MALE Armenians left to run and live in the Armenia in the Sevres treaty, which was because of the Genocide which was carried out for that EXACT reason.  They needed to kill the fighting age males, and who cares about the others, let them die in the desert.  It is not a coincidence that the majority of the survivors were children, because they were targeted for conversion and to be a new crop of janissaries, NOT because the CUP fascists were concerned about kids, and as Turkey started to LOSE the war, they eased some restriction AFTER 90% of the Genocide was complete in order to pay a ‘lower price’ for their crime.  The CUP of 1913 and the three Pashas NEVER stopped running Turkey, they just created new names and identities but the underlying beliefs were the exact same.  So the Armenia that was left was setup to fail without massive external support, because simple economic theory will tell you that no country or person can succeed in isolation and closed borders and hostile neighbors.  Israel does well not because they are inherently gifted but because of massive US Support and access to the Sea.

    Enver, deputy commander-in-chief, 23 Kanun-i Evvel, 1331 [Jan. 5, 1916].:

    “1. It is important to change into Turkish all names of provinces, regions, villages, mountains and rivers belonging to Armenian, Greek, Bulgarian and other non-Muslim peoples. Making use swiftly of this favorable moment, we beseech your help in carrying out this order. “

    2. Cooperating with military commanders and administrative personnel within the boundaries of your jurisdiction, respective lists of name changes should be formed of provinces, regions, villages, etc. and be forwarded to military headquarters as soon as possible. After being studied and approved, these lists of proposed changes should be sent to the Interior Ministry and the Communications Ministry for generalization and implementation. “

    3. It is imperative that the new names reflect the history of our hardworking, exemplary and praiseworthy military. The glorified events of our present and past war experiences should, by all means, be mentioned. If this is not possible, the names of those who had high moral principles and who fell rendering invaluable services to their country should be remembered; or names should be found that are appropriate to the given area’s specific crop, product, trade or geographical situation. “Last but not least, teachers at schools in different parts of our Fatherland should find appropriate topics to teach about the given territory’s glorious history, climate, crop, trade and culture. It should be borne in mind that any sudden change of a conventional name into an inconvenient or improper one may bring about the continuation of using the old name by the population. Therefore, new names should be chosen taking all this into consideration. If such principles cannot be observed, then Ereghli, for example, should be turned into Erikli or Erakli, Gallipoli into Veliboli in order to maintain the roots of old names. Enver, deputy commander-in-chief, 23 Kanun-i Evvel, 1331 [Jan. 5, 1916].”

  346. @Karekin,

    I share your pain and often, even as descendants of victims of such terrible crimes, it is hard to believe and easier to move on especially after 90 years, but the easier choice is often wrong, and while we may be able to move on in an individual level and share a drink with a Turkish intellectual, that would be impossible in terms of the Armenian government and people as a whole, because there is NO justice.  A female rape victim may get married to a man at some point, but she will always feel raped if there is no justice against the criminal.  

    Who can you ‘blame’ individually now and collectively?  The source of the Genocide is the same as it as always been and the same policies are in place because it is the same group who benefitted and that is the fascist elements of the Turkish military (which increases as you go higher up), and they are the ones in charge and they are the ones who continue the same policies started in 1913, because it is their religion, namely Ataturk and fascism is their actual religion, and until the military changes, Turkey will not change, because the current military elite is the descendant of the CUP in 1913 either physically or in ideology which is why it takes massive effort to open an Armenian church for 1 day, because whoever in Turkey is fighting for even minor things has to overcome the massive opposition of the military who stand to lose the most if things change.  Armenia, from a purely economic view, can ONLY change if they have open borders and neighbors who are not out to destroy it.  Since Armenia is smaller and less powerful than Turkey and it is so mainly because of Turkey’s policies (i.e. it is the rape victim), it is NOT up to the rape victim to reach out and comfort the rapist, but for the rapist to somehow, at some point, recognize the truth, and once the truth is genuinely recognized, all the other issues WILL easily fall into place, because similar to a criminal, once they recognize and truly repent for their crime, they dramatically change their behaivor without anyone telling them how or why, but if the criminal is in denial or too weak to change, then the crime will always continue.  The victim, of course, will always seek to improve herself, but it is up to the criminal to repent, not the victim.  Armenia is weak BECAUSE of Turkey and that was planned and the expected outcome of their actions in the Armenian Genocide and thereafter, it did not happen by accident and it was not a natural disaster like an earthquake.

    So the focus on Turkey is because a positive change in Turkey will have, by far and a factor of 100, the largest impact on Armenia, because as you have pointed out, Turkey’s GDP is 960 Billion, and all the financial aid of Armenians in the Diaspora and ‘friendly’ foreign countries can not even come close to approaching that value, and note that Turkey’s GDP is based and founded on the criminal theft and exploitation of all the non-Christians including Armenians and Greeks which started in 1913 and continues.  Just like robbing a bank and becoming wealthy does not mean you are a self made hard working man, it is the same for countries. 

  347. Armen, everything you have written here is true. No question about it. My point is (despite what some others have insinuated), that it is unnecessary and unproductive to focus our energies on Turkey in an effort to demean it, tear it down, etc. The truth of the genocide stands on its own. It does not need to be embellished.  The other truth is, if/when Turkey collapses on itself – which is entirely possible at some point – then Armenia needs to have the strength and wherewithal to take advantage of that. Again, putting aside all fantasies, this isn’t even remotely possible at this point, or anytime in the near future. This is what strengthening Armenia should be all about…the future – not the past. 

  348. Right before my above post that was unfortunately erased by my tiny labtop, I have questioned Karekin that is it logical or a fare comparison to put down our little landlocked newly formed Armenian Republic of 20 years, yet to put it on a pedestal the Turkish Republic that after 96 years when they have gobbled and devoured all the riches of the Armenians after annihilating them en masse, and yet in their Eastern Turkey which they call it Anatolia, the Turkish government until today do not take care of their people to have them live like the nomadic Seljuk/Mongolvian tribes who lived in tents in the center of Asia a thousand years ago.

  349. re: “…is it logical or a fare comparison to put down…”
    It is neither logical nor fair,  Seervart. So, only one conclusion to be reached: the person who is doing that has malintent. Is Anti-Armenian, and is a  rabid Turkophile.
     

    re: “….Turkish Republic that after 96 years when they have gobbled and devoured all the riches of the Armenians…” 
    Add to that 100s of US$ Billions the wealthy West has pumped into the bankrupt, decrepit Turkey to keep it afloat as a base against the former Soviet Union (now Russia).
    Add to that the tariff-free access Turks were generously given by the wealthy Christian West to their wealthy markets.
    Add to that the brand new factories Europeans built in Turkey to produce consumer and industrial goods.
    Add to that…..

    Well you get the picture. If Armenia got 1/100th of what Turkey  is getting, say US$1 Billion a year (no typo Karekin-bey),  RoA’s standard of living would be 3 times that of Turkey (no typo Karekin-bey)

  350. “This is what strengthening Armenia should be all about…the the future – not the past”.  There is no future without the past.

  351. re: “….that it is unnecessary and unproductive to focus our energies on Turkey in an effort to demean it, tear it down, etc…..”
    It is unnecessary and unproductive to focus ‘our’ energies on Armenia in an effort to demean it, tear it down, etc., as some Turks and their agents do constantly on these pages.
     
     
    Not only is it necessary, but it is imperative to focus our energies on Turkey in an effort to demean it, tear it down, etc – as a counter balance to the vicious, hate-filled Anti-Armenian efforts of Turks and their agents on these pages.
     
     
     
    Not only is Turkey in its present form a mortal danger – read Existential Danger – to Armenia and Artsakh, but it is a threat to all countries that have the misfortune to be neighbors with it.
    However, it is this writer’s humble opinion that  the artificial country of Turkey is ripe for disintegration. 
    Latest promising news:[ "Three soldiers dead, four wounded, including governor, in PKK ambush" (TodaysZaman Aug 1, 2011).]
    With Turkey on an inexorable march back to its Islamist roots, the West will finally come out of its hibernation and withdraw its massive support of the Genocidal State.
    Without massive support from the West,Turkey will continue its disintegration which was arrested by massive support from the West (and Bolshevik Russia) during 1915-1923. The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza will tear it apart from inside. Ethnic Turks have more enemies that they can deal with.
    Payback time you Genocidal psychopaths. 

  352. “This is what strengthening Armenia should be all about…the future – not the past.” 

    I’d take up the call to forget the past for a second, but guess what we see in the present, Karekin?
     
    Refusal to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia happens in the present.
     
    Closing of the Turkish border with Armenia happens in the present.
     
    Turkey’s economic blockade of Armenia happens in the present.
     
    Turgut Ozal’s insolent threat to drop bombs on Armenia happened in the present.

    Dispatch of Turkish military advisers to support the Azeri army shelling Stepanakert and emptying Armenian villages in and around Artsakh happened in the present.
     
    Murders of Hrant Dink and his lawyer happen in the present.
     
    Constant threats of their psychopathic prime minister happen in the present.
     
    You wanna talk about the present and future, not the past? Then try me, explain why all the above are happening in the present if we distance ourselves from the past? I’m pretty gullible…

  353. Dear Avery, Thank you for all your constructive posts above in response to the Karekins and likes and elsewhere too.  BTW; I have read your post on the Editorial “Can Life Imitate Chess” and I liked it.

    Coming back to Turkey, yes it was in the news that they’re starting to tear each other apart; the Ataturk believers and their army vs. the Islamist fundamentalists.  And then, like you said there is the 20-30 Million Turks that have been and are still being continuously persecuted by the Turkish government.  Let them disintegrate from within.  We’ll watch and when the ripe time comes then we’ll see.  If only the Christian West were more Christian-like and smart, from Khrimian Hayrig’s time, if the West supported us Armenians and gave us back our lands then, by now we would have been a huge Armenian Republic, the Western and the   

  354. thanks for the reminder Karo.

    re: “……the Azeri army shelling Stepanakert….”
    Lest people forget, let’s remind people of what ‘….shelling Stepanakert….’ really meant.

    The terror bombing of Stepanakert went on for close to a year, by Azeri GRADs, long-range artillery, and fighter-bombers flown by Ukrainian and Russian mercenary pilots.
    About 2,000 Armenian civilians were murdered: a war crime by any definition of the term.
    About 200 Azeri civilians  were killed @ Khojali (Azeris claim 800): they call that ‘Genocide’ (yeah, yeah right). But 2,000 murdered Armenians @ Stepanakert is not even mentioned by anyone other than Armenians.
    Thousands more were wounded, crippled, maimed – including children.
    Half the city  was destroyed or leveled.
    People were reduced to eating scraps of food and drinking rainwater.

    I remember a female Azeri member of their Parliament expressing disbelief that Armenians were holding on for that long in the face of the massive bombardment.

      

  355. Correcton on my post above; obviously I was trying to say that it is the Turkish government who have been in the past and are still persecuting the 20-30 Million Kurds living in their country today.

    As my tiny labtop is continuing to give me a hard time to input my posts, I will make another attempt to finish my above post.  If the Christian West around Khrimian Hayrig’s time listened to him and our pleas of supporting us; today both the Western world and the entire world would have been saved from belligerentness of Turkey et al, and the West would have been eternally set in peace having an ingenius, a civilized, a sane, a powerful yet a very peaceful Christian nation on their side in Western and Eastern Armenia and the Caucasus region.   We Armenians would have saved the whole world from the calamities that befell them and all the Genocides and the Haulocosts would not have occurred, if only the Western world would have been intelligent enough to foresee the future, to having been Christian enough and if they had more humanity traits in them.  The West and the whole world would have been living better times today if the West supported Armenians when Khrimian Hayrig went to them on behalf of Armenians.

  356. Look – saying ‘if’ this happened or if that happened or if only so and so did something differently… does not work, either as a strategy or as a way of viewing history. History is what it is, not what you would wish it could be. I’m not saying to forget our past…we know our past and the truth quite well, but wallowing in it endlessly means that you will, at some point, drown in your own remembrances. Any one of us only has the power to change our own circumstances in the present and to work for the best for the future. A wall lined with history books is a great thing, but….at some point, you need to leave the ivory-tower security of the library and step into the real world, because that’s where the rubber meets the road. I’m writing because, for the first time in many centuries, we have an azad Hayastan that’s survived more than just a few years, but I am fearful for its survival because of practical considerations on the ground, such as an economy that is struggling, at best and the economic rise of hostile, resource-rich neighbors. Only strength (academic, economic, physical) will allow Armenia to take advantage of the future, and in that strength, hopefully it can recapture and claim its rightful past, but until that moment, survival has to be paramount. The idea is to keep your eye on the real prize – which lies in the future…rather than to focusing on past laurels or pains. This might seem like a motivational pep talk…because that’s exactly what it is.

      

        

  357. the last thing Armenians need is quote ‘motivational pep talk’ from Turks or their Turkophile agents. I am sure that denigrating Armenia at every opportunity is considered ‘pep talk’ in the hallways of Milli İstihbarat Teşkilatı. 

    Use you motivational pep talk on yourselves: you need it, we don’t.
    Our motivational pep talk is our 5,000 year history of survival against all odds.
    Our 5,000 year history of creation, of human advancement, of civilization, of building  –  instead of destruction that your nomadic tribes unleashed on peaceful civilizations.

    In other news that might interest your nomadic tribes:
    ["British parliamentarians warn EU against Turkish membership" TodaysZaman Aug 1, 2011] Here is the quote: ["A panel of UK lawmakers said it's concerned about risks to the European Union from organized crime and illegal immigration if Turkey joins...]

    A British diplomatic way of saying “…we don’t want your Muslim Turk hordes invading our Western Christian Civilizations any more”. Maybe you guys need to start planning a trip back home – to the Altai Mountains and Mongolian Steppes, your native homeland ?

     

  358. Read it and weep, folks – ignore at our peril:  
    http://hetq.am/eng/opinion/3362/
     
     

  359. old news.

    Proves my point though: what ‘Armenian’ trolls the web to constantly dig up bad news
    about Armenia and Artsakh ? 

    I proudly  troll the web for bad news about Turks and Azeris: enjoy it as a
    matter of fact: no surprise, I never made a secret of my dislike of the Fascist Turkish and Azeri States, pray daily in fact for their dissolution.

    Some, quote, ‘Armenian’ trolls all day  for bad news, nothing but bad news, about Armenia while at the same time constantly praising Türkiye: what’s wrong  with this picture ? 

  360. The problem exists, but we don’t weep and you shouldn’t gloat. Scarred with the emigration problem, Armenia now is much stronger than in the early 1990s. Some arguments in the article are undeniable. However, some others are highly arguable. Even laughable, as this one: “With respect to emigration, at least one resounding difference separates the first and subsequent administrations: while we thought of emigration as a problem that had to be resolved, subsequent administrations seem to think of it as a solution to one or more problems.” Few in the early 1990s believed that first administration ‘thought of emigration as a problem that had to be resolved’. Many believed it was the first administration that opened the doors for emigration.

  361. avatar Grish Begian // August 2, 2011 at 6:36 pm // Reply

    We should follow Israelis policy, how Jews and Israelis around the world are co operating, even in military services I can see some American or Russian born Jews in IDF…why not Armenians!!we need to modernize our beloved country and replace older generation of politicians slowly and effectively with newer ones with the help of Diaspora Armenians…we should be involved with Armenia’s every day of life and bring their standard of living and democracy level as same as other European or American standard…   

  362. Dear Avery, Isn’t it something that a Karekin has to preach us what to say or not to say about our precious history, when he does not has it in his heart what it is in our hearts?  Ours, yours and mine are for our little and sacred Armenia and Artsakh, but his?  You and I and many others in here feel it in our guts and in our intelligence that it isn’t what he is trying very hard to convey or make us believe that it is for our sacred lands and for our people; but we know it only too well that his heart and soul is only for our number one enemy (the Turks).  Before I wrote about the Westerners and our beloved Khrimian Hayrig on my above post, I also read it in Today’s Zaman that how the Brits are pretty much frightened not to have the EU to accept any Turkish people in Europse.  Oh yes they are scared now, especially after they have pressed Germany to receive Turks and they are making a whole lot of trouble to the Germans today.  That’s exactly why I wrote my above post about the West; because the Westerners didn’t have any heart, Christianity, humanity nor forsightedness for us when a little over 100 years ago when our Khrimian Hayrig pleaded with them on behalf of our Western Armenia/Eastern Armenia and our civilized people to regard us and support us; but did the West listen to us?  Did they open their hearts or their minds for us? The anser is “NO”.  Yes my dear Avery, we Armenians got hurt plenty and a lot; we have lost our lands and most importantly, even more than our lands, we lost our precious people (and they were the cream of the crop of all humanities), yet very selfishly the West didn’t listen to us at all.  And today they are hurting, aren’t they?  They certainly are; and I am a Christian, but for a very good reason, today I am not touched by their hurt, because they let my people get hurt a great deal without having any regards for us the Christian Armenians.  The entire West looked the other way when our wonderful people were atrociously and savagely were massacred by those barbaric Turks in 1915 and beyond.  And till today, Britain and America continue not to accept nor call it by it’s right name that a Genocide of the 20th century to the Armenians occurred by the barbaric, savage man eating Turkish government the Ittihadists.  And till today they still pay them the Turks zillion of $$$$$$ and even assist the barbaric murderous mobs, the Azeris, because of the oil.  All they think about is $$$$$$ and more $$$$$.  Not Christianity, not humanity and not even for the safety or the future children of people and mankind.  If only they assisted us then and helped us to get our lands back and gain strength and support from them, today the West would’ve had much peace of mind and a much more help from us, because unlike the Turks, we Armenians don’t speak from both ends of our mouhts.  When we give our words, we mean it.  If for instance, they wanted our lands for Americans to land their army, we would have let them and not play games with them as the Turks have done and stil do it.  Now let the West boil in hot water, as they did it to us for more than a hundred years.  I am not sympathizing with the West and I don’t think any Armenian who know their history would either.

  363. No one is gloating Gor, far from it. It’s a dose of reality, and being aware of it and yes, fearful is probably more accurate. The situation is deadly serious. I think Libaridian is trying to make that point. You can reject it if you want, make jest or attack the messenger, but none of that will change the painful facts on the ground. Only a serious, multifaceted policy approach can do that, but few here seem capable. Everyone is self-satisfied to throw insults, empty slogans and fantasy talk. Good luck. As they say, this is no way to run an airline.

  364. I said the problem exists and some points in the article are undeniable. Therefore, no need to give me ‘you can reject it if you want’ when I said I admit the problem exists. I think strengthening of Armenia, safety of Artsakh, and recognition of genocide, as Karo rightly put, represent the multifaceted policy approach for the nation in contrast to one-dimensional, lop-sided ‘forget the genocide concentrate on Armenia only’ approach of yours. I also said that some arguments made by Libaridian were strongly arguable. One being, if I had to ask him, what was the result of not putting the genocide issue on Armenia’s foreign policy agenda? Did Turkey open the border and establish diplomatic relations with Armenia during the first administration?

  365. Criticism & discussing our woes is always beneficial.I had read Libaridian’s article,counter articles & comments.I do hope that our government reads & listens to our woes as well.However when Libaridian discusses emigration…what is he doing in US?Shouldn’t he at least follow his own advice?

  366. I am not certain, but I think he is a bona fide diasporan (possibly Syrian-Armenian?). 

  367. nothing stops a bona fide disaporan (what is that ?) from immigrating to Armenia.
    My father and mother, Syrian-Armenian and Lebanese-Armenian, respectively, immigrated to Armenia SSR.

    So VTiger is right: anyone that is not happy with the state of emigration from Armenia should do their patriotic duty and immigrate to Armenia, instead of writing about it.

    Agree with his politics or not, Raffi Hovanessian left his comfortable life in the US, and moved to Armenia, where he lives with his wife and 5 children. 

  368. Karekin —    Holding such defeatist, self-depreciative, and oftentimes explicitly anti-diasporan views, do you consider yourself a bona fide diasporan? Is it your newest invention: bona fide diasporan? And who is a counterfeit diasporan? You, perhaps?

  369. The real point is that denigrating someone like Libaridian – a bona fide intellectual – who has alot of on-the-ground experience, instead of evaluating his ideas in an intelligent way, is counterproductive. When it comes to Turkey, the endless denigration, in an attempt to elevate yourselves, is equally unproductive. When children throw mud at a neighbor’s house, they are just mudslingers, no matter who lives in the house. When someone insists on stomping his shoe onto dog poop, there is a very good chance some of it will end up on his pants. Libaridian is not denigrating anyone, but is suggesting that if we want to see Armenia survive, that there needs to be a major change in our approach to issues that do not directly help Armenia to survive and thrive. For a country of 3 million or less (a fraction of the population of Istanbul), to attempt any kind of arm twisting with a well armed, well funded and populous neighbor, aka Turkey, is a bit ridiculous, no matter if it thinks it has Russia’s backing. It is not serving to built Armenia…just the opposite. Put your pride aside for a moment and think in practical terms, if you truly want Armenia to survive. He is raising his voice, sounding the alarm. For once, please pay attention.

  370. “When it comes to Turkey, the endless denigration, in an attempt to elevate yourselves, is equally unproductive.”
    When it comes to Armenia, the endless denigration, in an attempt to elevate yourselves, is equally unproductive. 

    “For a country of 3 million or less (a fraction of the population of Istanbul), to attempt any kind of arm twisting with a well armed, well funded and populous neighbor,” 

    ‘For an Armenian population of 200,000 or less of Artsakh to attempt any kind of arm twisting (aka self-defense) with a well armed, well funded and populous neighbor, aka Azerbaijan, is a bit ridiculous…’

    Thank God Artsakh’s heroic people and Warriors were not reading posts @ArmenianWeekly in 1988-1994, otherwise they would have given up and  been exterminated, and there would be no Artsakh (maybe even Armenia) today. 

  371. Nobody is denigrating Libaridian & on the contrary self criticism is always beneficial as long as we can lessons.Emigration & economic difficulties are being discussed for the last 50 years & more urgently for the last 5 years.Please read the here below article(11/07/1961) written by Mr. Simon Simonian editor of Spurk weekly in Beirut:
    50 ՏԱՐԻ ԱՌԱՋ ( 11 ՅՈՒԼԻՍ 1961 )
     
    ՈՒՐԻՇՆԵՐՈՒ ԿԱՐԾԻՔԸ
    ՀԱՅԱՍՏԱՆ ԴՐԱԿԱՆ
    ԵՒ ԲԱՑԱՍԱԿԱՆ ԵՐԵՍՆԵՐՈՎ
    Պէյրութի «Սփիւռք» շաբաթաթերթը «Երեք հայաստաններ եւ երկու հայութիւն» խորագրեալ խմբագրականներու Ե. մասին մէջ, ի մէջ այլոց կու տայ ներկայ Հայաստանը իր դրական եւ բացասական կողմերով ներկայացնող պատկեր մը, զոր կը ներկայացնենք մեր ընթերցողներուն.-
    Հայաստանի մէջ կան անառարկելիօրէն հետեւեալ դրական եւ ժխտական երեւոյթները.-
    ԴՐԱԿԱՆ`
    ա.- Գիտութիւն
    բ.- Ճարտարապետութիւն
    գ.- Երաժշտութիւն
    դ.- Պատմաբանասիրութիւն, որոնք Հայաստանի վերնախաւին – մտաւորականութեան – շնորհներն ու բարիքներն են: Իսկ ժողովուրդին – զան- գուածին կամ կոճղին իրագործած դրական երկու յաջողութիւններն են.-
    ե.- Շինարարութիւն
    զ.- Արտաքին սահմաններու ապահովութիւն
    Ժխտական երեւոյթներն են, որոնց մասին արտայայտուելու ազատութեան շրջանը թեւակոխած ենք այլեւս:
    ա.- Ներքին արտագաղթ կամ Հայաստանի բնակչութեան ամրահիմ չարմատաւորուիլը իր հայրենի հողին վրայ:
    բ.- Խորհրդային Միութեան այլ հանրապետութիւններու մէջ գտնուող հայութեան ազգային
    անկազմակերպ վիճակը եւ անոնց հետզհետէ կտրուիլը եւ ուծանալը հայ արմատէն:
    գ.- Հայկական շրջաններու (յատկապէս Ղարաբաղի եւ Նախիջեւանի) անջատումը եւ վերամիաւորման յետաձգումը:
    դ.- «Խուլիգանութիւն» կամ հայկական Ենիչերիութեան տիրապետութիւնը, հովանաւորութեամբ մարքսիստ ֆէոտալներու:
    ե.- Ռուսերէնի տարածումը ի վնաս հայերէնի. ռուսական դպրոցներ եւ հաստատութիւններ Հայաստանի մէջ (կը մնայ ճշդել ռուսերու թիւը Հայաստանի մէջ):
    զ.- Հայոց հաւատքին եւ Էջմիածնի հայրապետական աթոռի իրական զօրացման հնարաւորութենէ զրկուիլը:
    Է.- Հայութեան հարազատ դիմագիծի աղարտման նշաններ:
    ը.- Անցեալի, յատկապէս ստալինեան շրջանի աղիտալի երեւոյթներէն ոմանց վերապրուկները:
     

  372. Some probable good news…
    Western Investor To Look For Shale Gas In Armenia
    03.08.2011
    Emil Danielyan
    A Western offshore-registered company pledged on Wednesday to explore Armenia’s untapped deposits of shale gas, a new and increasingly important source of energy, and possibly attract foreign investment in their commercial exploitation.
    A top executive of the company, International Minerals and Mines (IMM), signed a relevant memorandum of understanding with Energy Minister Armen Movsisian in Yerevan.

    The development came two months after a similar agreement signed by the Armenian and U.S. governments. It calls for a “cooperative assessment and technical studies” of Armenia’s shale gas resources to be conducted by Movsisian’s ministry and the U.S. Geological Survey, a government agency.

    In a written statement, the Armenian government said IMM plans to “fully explore and develop shale fuel reserves existing in our country.” It said the company will do that through a recently established subsidiary called IMM Energy Armenia.

    The statement did not specify any time frames or other details of the exploratory work. Prime Minister Tigran Sarkisian, who was present at the signing ceremony, was cited as stressing the importance of the deal.

    According to corporate records available on the Internet, both IMM and IMM Energy Armenia were registered in the Isle of Man, a British-run tax haven, as recently as on June 16.
    Armenia – Energy Minister Armen Movsisian and U.S. Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch sign an agreement on shale gas exploration, 2Jun2011.

    The U.S.-Armenian memorandum on shale exploration was also signed in June. The Armenian Ministry of Energy and Natural Resources said at the time that the two sides will not only gauge the feasibility of shale mining in Armenia but possibly devise “investment projects” for that purpose.

    The ministry added that the agreement is the result of an international conference on shale gas that was hosted by the U.S. State Department in August 2010. It said U.S. officials offered exploration grants to government representatives from Armenia and about two dozen other countries that attended the three-day forum.

    “The organizers … noted the readiness of the U.S. government and companies to make investments in those countries,” read a ministry statement issued on June 2.

    Shale has become an increasingly important source of natural gas in the United States over the past decade. Shale gas industries have also emerged in Europe and China.

    The world’s vast reserves of the sedimentary rock have led some analysts to suggest that shale gas will eventually become a real alternative to depleting energy resources such as conventional gas and oil.
     

  373. If you have any concerns about pollution and the environment in Armenia, shale gas is not something that is good for the country or our people. Money is not everything!  The process of getting gas out of shale poisons the water supply and the companies that engage in it are notorious for avoiding their responsibilities. Armenia does not need this kind of environmental disaster. 

    If you’re concerned about Artzakh, then you should be demanding that it officially be reunited with Armenia, instead of floating around as an unrecognized and illegitimate territory, not unlike Turkish controlled Cyprus. Face the fact that Russia is preventing this from happening, and perhaps the US and Turkey, as well. If you are as pro-Armenia as you say, then the status quo cannot be supported.  

    When it comes to history, we all have to realize that Armenia has been invaded, occupied and invaded again, many times. There have been persecutions, population transfers, massacres, genocides and wars. Somehow, each time, Armenians were able to hang on and recover. While they might have lamented their past and their fates, it did not stop them in their tracks. They didn’t waste their time demanding that the last conqueror be vanquished. They kept going. They did not look back.  

    At some point, we all need to realize that 3 million souls in Armenia are living in a very dangerous situation. If you think dwelling on the past, whether it be the genocide or Stalin or the Mongols, will help lift Armenia out of its current, dire circumstances, then you need a good dose of reality. We don’t have a million man army or very much else to protect us….so, what do you suggest?  More articles on the genocide?  How does that protect and save Armenia???  That the genocide is well known is not a mystery…go to Dzidzernagapert… remembering is fine, but focusing on it cannot help Armenia – if you think it can, tell us how and why.  This is the real question that remains unanswered. 

     

     

  374. Everything haa side effect.Nevertheless this project is underway & lessons learnt in drilling & excavations in the US will be implemented in Armenia to avoid disasters or to minimise the side effects.There will be minimum of water,air & noise pollution using the latest new-generation rigs, low-emission engines, & advanced water management systems.This will create jobs & give us some room to breathe.finally,hope that Haig nahabed had settled on the right space with little gas & oil on the sideline.The whole of Baku & its surrounding is polluted, similarly the Caspian Lake.Istanbul?My God how it is polluted.I know very well as I visit it often.The whole sewage of Istanbul is dumped into the Bosphorus.
    Artsakh has been liberated at worse conditions than the present circumstances.Whether it joins Armenia or not is secondary.It is free & independent.Compared to the past at least we’ve regained back Artsakh,which we had almost lost it as Nakhichevan.I for one do not trust the Turks nor the Azeris & their motives are very clear to me.Better be free than kiss the backsides of Turks.Up till now we’ve survived the Soviet system,the earthquake,the Artsakh independence war,the embargo & still nobody starved of hunger.Under the current conditions yes we are not prosperous but on the bright side we did not need the humanitarian aid of the UN.We are survivors & it is not ‘somehow’ as you say.We work to survive & it is in our blood.Turks failed as after the Genocide we did not disappear & fade away.
    Quote
    From a conflict resolution point of view, I have a different take. I interpret this sentence from the point of view of Burton’s basic human needs theory and Volkan’s chosen trauma and glories. According to the basic human needs theory, humans all have the basic needs of identity, security, recognition and development as well as basic physiological and physical needs. If humans are prevented from satisfying their needs because of a perception of conflicting or incompatible goals, then they will fight to eliminate the frustration in order to satisfy their needs. One of the most important elements influencing the conflicts among Turkey, Azerbaijan and Armenia is the issue of ethno-national identity among the conflicting parties.
    As a result, identity as a basic human need is pursued regardless of the cost. When ethnic groups’ identities are threatened and felt to be victimized, it leads to what Vamik Volkan calls the egoism of victimization. As a result, one ethnic group has no empathy for another ethnic group because they emphasize their chosen traumas. By this psycho-analytical process, a victim can become a terrorist, committing violence with little guilt. When ethnic groups are badly victimized, they become obsessive about the trauma and justify their unjustifiable acts. So how can we combine these theoretical backgrounds to a single sentence?
    President Sargsyan is a representative of one ethnic group: Armenians. Armenians have always and will always have aspirations to the territory of Turkey and Azerbaijan. The explanation is simple: they think that their basic human needs have been threatened for more than 100 years. Also, they are like many other ethnic groups who have been victimized by a great power. Their chosen trauma, the Armenian Genocide, has been and will always be real in their perceptions and group psyches. Also, their group psychology leads to no empathy for the other side, namely Turks and Azerbaijanis.
    Unquote
    The above is from an interview with Dr. Sezai Ozcelik, head of the International Relations Department at Cankiri Karatekin University.
    The above inteview is very self illuminating & it explains a lot aboutus  people that have passed through terrible trauma.
    On the other hand have you read the Armenian article?If you cannot read Armenian have it translated.

  375. well said VTiger:

    the relentless negative propaganda and psyops continues by Turks and their agents.
    Milli İstihbarat Teşkilat posting guidelines:

    “any good news about Armenia, just has to have some bad news in it: make sure you ignore the good news, and emphasize the bad news ”
    “any bad news about Armenia, just has to have even worse news in it: make sure you emphasize that” 

    Artsakh is free of Azeri-Tatar-Turk domination.
    Artsakh is free and Independent.
    Artsakh and Armenia have finally succeeded in giving the Armenian Nation crucial strategic depth.
    Artsakh is a fully functioning, democratic state.
    Many states that are UN recognized are in fact failed states. Ex: Somalia, Libya, Azerbaijan….
    It is the fervent wish of Turks and their agents that Armenia recognize Artsakh, so that it can be used to damage both Armenia and Artsakh. They have instructed their agents to plant that meme into Armenian blogosphere. Armenian sentinels routinely detect and counter the spread of this  viral meme.

    Armenia’s and Arstaskh’s leaders have wisely stayed the course: continue building and strengthening Artsakh. Ignore calls by enemy agents to recognize Artsakh.
     

  376. Avery how true.

  377. A question, if someone can help, thanks in advance.
      When?, the Central Bank of Turkey, will cancel 6 (000,000) from the new lira,introducing the New of the New lira?
     As it done in 2005,changing the old lira with the new lira   YTL.

     A  person, who, in seventies, invested an equivailent of 10000 USD , in Turkish Lira denominated bonds, (at that time could buy a good home in USA), with a medium yield of 8 percent/per annum, in compound interest rate, in  2005 he got, the sum of  1 USD and 12 cents in new turkish lira.

     Shall we invest in YTL ? 

  378. VTiger….I certainly hope you are right and I am wrong, but….facts on the ground tell me otherwise. Maybe over time things will change. But…in reality, until Artzakh is reunited with Armenia, it is no different than Turkish-occpuied Cyprus in the minds of world leaders, the UN and other international political entities. This means that it and the people there, are at risk. Yes, Armenia won Artzakh but at that time, Azerbaijan was in a very weakened state, the oil industry was in shambles, deals with Turkey and Israel had not yet happened, pipelines had not been built and US military aid had not yet reached Baku.  So, Armenia may have missed its chance, despite what Sarkisyan says. Karabagh was won, yes, but it is not yet reunited with Armenia, though supporting and protecting it is costing Armenia a pretty penny. The formal reunification should have taken place a long time ago, because as it is now, there is not one international agency that either recognizes its independence or its reconnection to Armenia. Add to that the fact that it cannot survive on its own economically, and you can see why reunification is imperative.   

  379. Karekin,Artsakh’s official unification with Armenia can wait for the proper & right political circumstances.There is no rush whatsoever.Practically it is united as the currency,car plate numbers & others used are same as Armenia.For us it is already united & under the current conditions our first & last objective is to keep it free & independent from slavery.This is final & no way back whatsoever.We lost Nakhichevan (I always wonder why still the Azeris keep its Armenian name…) & learnt a very harsh lesson.Until mid 1960s almost 40% of the population was Armenian.There is not a single household in Artsakh that has not suffered a loss of family member.Do you think that they will give up their hard won independence after so much sacrifice & suffering?Just go to Artsakh & talk with the locals.The Artsakhis consider all occupied territories as part of Artsakh & they dream about regaining the Azeri occupied Shahumyan region.The last say is theirs.Turkish Cyprus is not recognised by anybody except for Turkey & what is its outcome?Even Aleyivistan is not recognising it & you know very well why.Tell me who has recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?Do the Jews give a damn about it?How about South Ossetia & Abkhazia?Do the Armenians give a damn if Artsakh is recognised by any international agency?NO!
    US military aid to Baku?This is news & new to me.Please clarify & verify.Do you mean Israeli miltary hardware sales?We saw what happened in Georgia with the US,NATO & Israeli military aid.
    More than 90% of Aleyivistan’s economy is based on the oil industry.Its income is very vulnerable to this industry whether it is oil price fluctuations,decrease in production or capability of export.Oil & its pipelines will be the first to be hit in the first event of war & more territories will be occupied & as a result the super corrupt Aliyev & its Nakhichevan mafia will fall similar to Mubarak,Ben Ali,Kaddafi & others on their way out…Don’t you think that the sultan knows that?Aleyivistan was & still is very weak economically.All its gained wealth is being siphonned by the corrupt ruling clan,being spent on huge imports(including weapons),being spent on bread & petrol subsidies(so that the sultan survives) & it will be an net oil importer by 2030.
    Quote
    Azerbaijan could become net oil importer by 2030, state report says
    Declining oil reserves starting in 2013 combined with falling commodity prices could throw the Azeri economy and government budget into a tailspin.
    While the Azeri government’s own Center for Economic and Social Development says that the country is in the midst of an oil boom as it develops huge reserves in the Caspian Sea, government forecasts call for oil revenues to peak in 2012 and reserves to peak in the following year. The rate of decline, the government says, could turn the country into a net oil importer as soon as 2030.
    Oil production is already running below last year’s pace. For the first six months of this year, Azerbaijan produced 23.8 million metric tons (174.5 million barrels) of oil, a drop of 1.445 million metric tons (10.596 million barrels), or 5.6%, from last year’s production to date. Natural gas production is also off. The 12.91 billion cubic meters produced in the first six months of 2011 is 238 million cubic meters, or 2.1%, below the figure for the same period last year. That figure casts some doubt on Azeri government forecasts that call for the country to produce 29.13 billion cubic meters of gas this year, 7.8% more than was produced last year.
    Combined with falling commodity prices for oil and gas, the production declines spell trouble in the long run for the Azeri economy and government budget. Azerbaijan has relied on oil exports to power its economy, and a sustained fall in those would drive up government budget deficits and interest rates thanks to declining tax revenue.
    The hit to the economy and government budget could even affect the ongoing dispute over Nagorno-Karabakh, a majority Armenian region within Azerbaijans borders. The inhabitants of the region have waged a fight for autonomy dating back to the late 1980s in which neighboring Armenia has taken interest. Azerbaijan has used oil revenues to suppress the autonomy movement and hold off on any negotiations or moves that might result in autonomy for the region. A severe falloff in revenues could force the government to the bargaining table with the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh.
    http://www.huliq.com/8738/azerbaijan-could-become-net-oil-importer-2030-state-report-says
    Unquote
    You explain to me what will be the benefits of unification & why it is imperative.Why are you always so pessimistic?What are your positive suggestions if there are any?

  380. excellent retort VTiger:
     
    a couple of corrections if I may.
     
    re: ‘The Artsakhis consider all occupied territories as part of Artsakh & they dream about regaining the Azeri occupied Shahumyan region.
    The lands beyond the territory of lines delineated for Nagorno-Karabagh ASSR were not occupied, they were  liberated. The lands are historic Armenian lands.
    When Azeris consider Yerevan ‘occupied Azerbaijani lands’, we shouldn’t be shy about calling what is historically Armenian lands – liberated lands.
     
    re: ‘in the first event of war & more territories will be occupied- ….more historic Armenian lands will be liberated ifArmenia or Artsakh are attacked.

  381. Avery,I apologise you are right & I should have used ‘liberated’ instead of ‘occupied’.

  382. VTiger…for the record, I think Armenia has won Karabagh fair and square after Azeri aggression and hostilities towards Armenians, and that not one inch should ever go back under Azeri control. Why Azeris want to keep Nakhichevan is a mystery to me, but the issue of military cooperation is not, because there is oil involved. Very sad to see our tax dollars used this way:

    United States
    Section 907 of the United States Freedom Support Act bans any kind of direct United States aid to the Azerbaijani government. Despite this law there is extensive U.S. military cooperation with Azerbaijan. This has included Special Forces and naval aid, consultations with United States European Command, and linkages through the U.S. National Guard State Partnership Program.
    On 19 May 2006, Azerbaijani Defense Minister Safar Abiyev and the then commander of United States Air Forces in Europe General Tom Hobbins met in Baku to discuss military cooperation. He said the objective of his visit was to become familiar with the state of Azerbaijani armed forces.[59] Hobbins pointed to the progress made in the NATO-Azerbaijan relations, saying that the successful implementation of the NATO Partnership for Peace program in Azerbaijan has brought the country even closer to the alliance. He said that the two countries’ air forces will expand cooperation.[60]
    The U.S. state of Oklahoma is linked with Azerbaijan through the U.S. National Guard State Partnership Program (SPP)). Oklahoma National Guard troops have been sent on training and humanitarian missions to Baku.
     

  383. Karekin,I’ve read your quoted 2 paragraphs.Please verify its source.There are similar programs & cooperation between Armenia,US & NATO to the extent of Armenian forces’ existence in Afghanistan.I vaguely know that Baku is used as a hub for transporting military goods to Kabul.
    Yes not a single centimeter should be given back of our liberated sacred lands.However I’m waiting for your input regarding ‘ what will be the benefits of unification & why it is imperative’.

  384. Well, there would be many benefits of a formal, legal, re-unification, both for Armenia and for the residents of Karabagh/Artsakh. For one, the people who live there would become citizens of a real country and have real passports. Citizenship confers many benefits, but it might also encourage people to move there because they would feel they were under the official umbrella of Armenia. At this point, what are the Karabaghtsis – stateless people?  citizens of Azerbaijan?  They deserve better than that. 

    For Armenia, there are many potential benefits, from water resrouces to the ability to source anything there legally. In many ways, this would probably encourage investment, because as things stand now, investors probably find the current situation too risky.  Another would be the official cessation of hostilities, which is expensive and another threat that would diminish. 

    In the US, many territories were, over time, folded into the federal system, including Hawaii and even Puerto Rico, neither of which would ever survive on their own.  We also need to recognize that Azerbaijan annexed Nakhichevan…and so there is a legal precedent. But, above all, Armenia should reunite with Karabagh so the Karabaghtsis can become legal citizens of Armenia.

  385. avatar Grish Begian // August 16, 2011 at 11:22 pm // Reply

    That fertile land of Artsakh can feed not only Armenians but entire Russian population…Armenian Diaspora should get involved with Artsakh agriculture industries and invest money there as much as they can!!

  386. Karekin,whatever you say is true in peace time.Artsakhis travel with Armenian or Russian passports & not Azeri & they are not stateless.However when you are in a state of war as we are our main concentration is keeping what is ours & what the enemies want to take from us by force.

  387. True, but this just underscores my point….that a legal reunification to Armenia is paramount. As I understand it, the Armenian government has always wanted to work within international legal frameworks on Karabagh.  For any country, a ‘state of war’ is an expensive enterprise that can drain all kinds of valuable resources.  For Armenia, which is already in difficult economic straits and should be focusing on rebuilding their economy, maintaining its population and generating income, it is imperative. It would not surprise me if Armenia’s enemies are actually prolonging the status quo in order to weaken Armenia.

  388. The status quo is involuntary.Golan Heights are occupied since 1967 & Northern Cyprus since 1974.State of war applies to both Armenia & the sultanate & all that you refer applies to both countries.Our main concentration is to keep what is ours for eternity.Practically Artsakh & Armenia are unified.We do know our weaknesses very well & as I’ve mentioned in my earlier comments sultanate’s woes are much worse & Aliyev knows what will happen to his hereditary rule together with his mafia in case he follows Saakasvhili’s gamble.In case the peace process does not result into an agreement & the war starts then it will be right time to declare unification.

  389. Yes, you might be right. Of course, none of us know for sure. The concern, however, is really about the ongoing militarization of Azerbaijan, which has deep pockets and lots of money to spend with willing allies and suppliers.  A small spark could create a large fire…but, I sincerely hope it doesn’t get to that point. 

  390. Karekin,obviously non of us want war.But it does not mean that we are not ready for it.Personally I believe it is good for us that Aliyev is in power & sticks to his chair as long as Kaddafi & Mubarak.

  391. The RANT of the Armenian genocide will never end will it???
    Obviously it did happen maybe with exaggerations now.. maybe with alterations, BUT ARMENIA isnt the only place they happend ALOT throughtout the world especially durring that time period.
    Even before. look at Italian Columbus arriving in the Americas and hurting so many Natives, do you see a majority of the latin population mad? no they have learned to get along. yes some loons are still racist but not the most part.

    Look at the jews removing arabs from thier own land.

    in Africa there is  a genocide right now.

    Common look at the Nazis and the germans. NOT ALL GERMANS wanted to kill jews/ gays/ jehova winess etc. OR wanted to be nazis, yes THE this bad thing happend to many jews its a pity but they remember there holocost in a much more “LESS HATEFUL” way than armenians remember their genocide.

    You do no good just being racist. really if you say TURKEY is bad your saying the armenians who live there the kurds etc, this happend durring OTTOMAN times not turkish, the president removed Islam basically, and Turkey helps many counties out.  SO Understand If YOUR ARMENIAN then  amazing cause i love their food and music! haha but the WORLD is made up of Latin, Arab, Asian, European people too… i like every culture they have there own food, money, history, and getting along is much better than ugly feeelings of resentment and hate. OF course im not saying FORGET that it happend, We cannot forget every terrible thing BUT we must remember in a educational manner to help all societies improve themselves and to Never repeat such harm again :)

  392. ZaaraJamil,it is not your parents that were butchered,raped,killed.It is not you who has lost everything,including homeland of thousands of years & have been scattered homel;ess.
    Once you’ve passed through this process then come & preach us.Easy for you to preach.

  393. avatar Boyajian to ZaaraJamil // November 30, 2011 at 12:22 pm // Reply

    ZaaraJamil, you seem to ignore the big difference between the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide.  The Germans apologized before the world and are paying reparations to this day.  Because of the ongoing efforts to reconcile and compensate, the Jewish anger has modulated and they, as a people, can properly mourn and move forward.  Because of the denial and lack of contrition on the part of the Turks, the Armenians still struggle for a just resolution against the evil wall of distorted history that stands in the way of our right to mourn our dead and reclaim what is ours.

    Big difference in the two situations.  You need to contemplate this before criticizing Armenian’s so-called hateful ways.  What we hate is the lying and denigration of our nation by an unrepentant Turkey.  You are poorly informed and lack compassion for those who suffered greatly the loss of home and nation and have awaited justice for almost 100 years.   Yes genocides and massacres have happened before and are happening today.  This is no excuse for Turkey failing to face her responsibility; especially if she insists to comment on the human rights affairs in other nations.

  394. Mr. Astarjian, I fully agree with your father’s statement that true Armenians are Apostolic since the adoption of Christianity as the official state religion of Armenia. Having said that, I still consider the Armenians of different Christian denominations, such as Catholics and Protestants, as our brothers and sisters. If they have Armenian blood in their veins then they are Armenians but I totally reject the idea of so-called Muslim Armenians because not only Islam and Christianity are opposing religions but also because the Muslim religion of our racial Turkish enemies played a major role in the extermination of our people. Not only anti-Armenian sentiments were used by the genocidal Turkish leaders but also anti-Christian sentiments were used by Turkish and Kurdish Muslim clerics to help expedite the extermination of our people. The term “Muslim Armenian” is an oxymoron and it should never be allowed to exist. I reject every and all Armenians who profess to Islam and they can only be accepted back into the Armenian society if they renounce Islam altogether. Islam has no place in the Armenian society and makeup and it must be eradicated by all means. What Christian denomination they choose to adopt is totally up to them even though I would prefer if they adopted the Apostolic Christian faith thus becoming full Armenians as your father so thoughtfully stated.

Leave a comment

Your email address will not be published.

*