Latest:

Bedrosyan: Searching for Lost Armenian Churches and Schools in Turkey

click for more

(Armenian Weekly)—On July 21, the U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee overwhelmingly adopted the Berman-Cicilline Amendment based upon the Return of Churches resolution spearheaded by Representatives Ed Royce and Howard Berman, with a vote of 43 to 1, calling on Turkey to return stolen Armenian and other Christian churches, and to end the repression of its Christian minorities.

Armenian churches in Turkey before 1915

Where are these lost or stolen Armenian churches in Turkey? How many were there before 1915, the turning point in the Armenians’ world, when they were uprooted and wiped out from their homeland of more than 3,000 years? How many churches are there now? Considering that every Armenian community invariably strove to build a school beside its church, how many Armenian schools were there in Turkey before 1915, and how many are there now? How many Armenian churches and schools are left standing now in Turkey is the easier part of the issue: There are only 34 churches and 18 schools left in Turkey today, mostly in Istanbul, with about less than 3,000 students in these schools. The challenging and frustrating issue is how many were there in the past.

Recent research pegs the number of Armenian churches in Turkey before 1915 at around 2,300. The number of schools before 1915 is estimated at nearly 700, with 82,000 students. These numbers are only for churches and schools under the jurisdiction of the Istanbul Armenian Patriarchate and the Apostolic Church, and therefore do not include the numerous churches and schools belonging to the Protestant and Catholic Armenian parishes. The American colleges and missionary schools, mostly attended by Armenian youth, are also excluded from these numbers. The number of Armenian students attending Turkish schools or small schools at homes in the villages are unknown and not included. Finally, these numbers do not include the churches and schools in Kars and Ardahan provinces, which were not part of Turkey until 1920, and were part of Russia since 1878.

Armenian schools in Turkey before 1915

The two maps show the wide distribution of Armenian churches and schools in Turkey before 1915. The two lists for the Armenian churches and schools are by no means complete, but should be regarded as a preliminary study that can serve as foundation for further research. The place names are based on the old Ottoman administrative system, instead of that of modern Turkey. They are ably assembled by Zakarya Mildanoglu, from various sources such as the Ottoman Armenian National Council Annual reports, Echmiadzin Journal, Vienna Mkhitarists, and studies by Teotig, Kevorkian, and Nishanyan.

Lost Churches

Adana: Center and villages, Yureghir, Ceyhan, Tarsus, Silifke, Yumurtalik, Dortyol, Iskenderun, 25 churches

Amasya: Vezirkopru, Mecitozu, Merzifon, Havza, Gumushacikoy, Ladik, 15 churches

Ankara: Center, Haymana, Sincan, 5 churches

Antakya: Center, Samandagh, 7 churches

Antep: Center, Nizip, Halfeti, 4 churches

Arapkir (Malatya): Arapkir and Kemaliye villages, 19 churches

Arganimadeni (Elazig): Erganis, Siverek, Bulanik, Kahta, 10 churches

Armash (Akmeshe): 2 churches

Artvin: Center and villages, 11 churches

Balikesir: Balikesir, Mustafakemalpasha, Biga, Bandirma, 6 churches

Bayburt: Bayburt center and villages, 34 churches

Beshiri (Diyarbakir): Beshiri and villages, 14 churches

Bilecik (Bursa): Golpazar, 4 churches

Bingol (Genc): Center and villages, 11 churches

Bitlis: Center and villages, 30 churches

Bitlis: Tatvan, Ahlat, Mutki, Hizan, 66 churches

Bolu: Duzce, Akyazi, 5 churches

Bursa: Center, Orhangazi, 11 churches

Charsancak ( Tunceli): Mazgirt, pertek, Pulumur, Hozat, and villages, 93 churches

Chemishgezek (Tunceli): 20 churches

Chungush (Diyarbakir): Chungush center and villages, 2 churches

Dersim: Hozat, Pertek, 28 churches

Divrigi (Sivas) Center and villages, 25 churches

Diyadin (Erzurum): Diyadin and villages, 4 churches

Diyarbakir: Center and villages, 11 churches

Edirne: Center and villages, 4 churches

Egin (Erzincan): Kemaliye, Ilic, and villages, 17 churches

Egin: 3 churches

Eleshkirt (Erzurum): Eleshkirt and villages, 6 churches

Ergani: Ergani and villages, 11 churches

Erzincan: Erzincan center and villages, 52 churches

Erzurum: Center, Aziziye, Yakutiye, Ashkale, Narman, Ispir, Oltu, Shenkaya, Horasan, Pazaryolu, and villages, 65 churches

Giresun: Tirebolu, 1 church

Gumushane: Center, 4 churches

Gurun (Sivas): Center and villages, 5 churches

Harput (Elazig): Harput center and villages, Karakochan, Palu, Keban, 67 churches

Hinis (Erzurum): Hinis and villages, 19 churches

Hoshap: Hoshap and villages, 14 churches

Istanbul: European/Trachean region, 36 churches; Asian/Anatolian region, 8 churches; total 44 churches

Izmir: Center and villages, Manisa, Turgutlu, Akhisar, Bergama, Nazilli, Odemish, 23 churches

Izmit: Gebze, Kocaeli, Sakarya, Kandira, Geyve, Karamursel, 50 churches

Kastamonu: Tashkopru, Boyabat, Inebolu, 7 churches

Kayseri: Center and villages, Nigde, Aksaray, Bor, Nevshehir, Tomarza, Develi, Bunyan, Talas, 57 churches

Kemah (Erzincan): Kemah and villages, 14 churches

Kighi (Bingol): Kighi and villages, 58 churches

Konya: Center, Bor, Burdur, Nevshehir, 7 churches

Kutahya: Center, Tavshanli, 7 churches

Lice: Lice and villages, 19 churches

Mardin: Center and villages, 3 churches

Mush: Center and villages, Batman, Malazgirt, Bulanik, Varto, Hizan, 148 churches

Ordu: Karaduz, Ulubey, 3 churches

Palu (Elazig): Palu center, Kovancilar, Karakochan, and villages, 44 churches

Pasinler (Erzurum): Pasinler and villages, 4 churches

Pulumur (Tunceli): Pulumur and villages, 6 churches

Rize: Yolusti, 1 church

Samsun (Canik): Center and villages, 43 churches

Samsun: Ordu, 1 church

Shebin karahisar: Shebinkaya center, Giresun, and part of Sivas, 32 churches

Silvan (Diyarbakir): Silvan and villages, 34 churches

Sivas: Center and villages, Hafik, Zara, Ulash, Yildizeli, Sariz, Bunyan/Ekrek, Gemerek, 110 churches

Tercan (Erzincan): Erzincan and Tercan villages, 33 churches

Tokat: Center and villages, 32 churches

Trabzon: Center and villages, Of, Machka, Surmene, Akchaabat, Fatsa, Yorma, Arakli, 89 churches

Urfa: Center and villages, Birecik, Siverek, Suruch, Hikvan, Harran, Bozova, Halfeti, 17 churches

Van: Center and villages, Edremit, Gurpinar, Edremit, ozalp, Ercish, Timar, muradiye, Tatvan, Bashkale, Gevash, Bahchesaray, Chatak 322 churches

Yozgat: Center and villages, Bogazliyan, Sarikaya, Cayiralan, Sorgun, Shefaatli, and villages, 51 churches

Yusufeli (Artvin): Center and villages 4 churches

Zeytun (Marash): Center and villages 14 churches

 

Lost Schools

Adana: 25 schools, 1,947 boys, 808 girls, 2755 students, 40 male, 29 female, 69 teachers

Akhtamar: 32 schools, 1,106 boys, 132 girls, 1238 students, 36 male teachers

Amasya-Merzifon: 9 schools, 1,524 boys, 814 girls, 2,338 students, 54 teachers

Ankara: 7 schools, 895 boys,  395 girls, 1,290 students, 20 male, 9 female, 29 teachers

Antakya; 10 schools, 440 boys, 47 girls, 487 students, 10 male teachers

Antep: 9 schools, 898 boys, 798 girls, 1606 students, 31 male, 27 female, 58 teachers

Arapkir: 18 schools, 713 boys, 223 girls, 936 students, 23 male, 2 female, 25 teachers

Armash: 2 schools, 190 boys, 110 girls, 300 students, 5 male, 1 female, 6 teachers

Bandirma: 8 schools, 700 boys, 644 girls, 1,344 students, 22 male, 13 female, 35 teachers

Bayburt: 9 schools, 645 boys, 199 girls, 844 students, 27 male, 5 female, 32 teachers

Beyazit: 6 schools, 338 boys, 54 girls, 392 students, 11 male, 2 female, 13 teachers

Bilecik: 10 schools, 1,120 boys, 143 girls, 1,263 students, 18 male, 3 female, 21 teachers

Bitlis; 12 schools, 571 boys, 63 girls, 634 students, 20 male teachers

Bursa: 16 schools, 1345 boys, 733 girls, 2078 students, 34 male, 20 female, 54 teachers

Charsancak: 12 schools, 617 boys, 189 girls, 806 students, 16 male, 2 female, 18 teachers

Chemishgezek: 12 schools, 456 boys, 272 girls, 728 students, 14 male, 1 female, 15 teachers

Cyprus: 3 schools, 63 boys, 37 girls, 100 students, 8 male, 1 female, 9 teachers

Darende: 2 schools, 260 boys, 70 girls, 330 students, 4 male, 1 female, 5 teachers

Divrigi: 10 schools, 757 boys, 100 girls, 857 students, 18 male, 2 female, 20 teachers

Diyarbakir: 4 schools, 660 boys, 324 girls, 1014 students, 18 male, 9 female, 27 teachers

Egin: 4 schools, 541 boys, 215 girls, 756 students, 13 male, 9 female, 22 teachers

Erzincan: 22 schools, 1389 boys, 475 girls, 1864 students, 54 male, 9 female, 63 teachers

Erzurum: 12 schools, 485 boys, 10 girls, 495 students, 12 male teachers

Erzurum: 27 schools, 1,956 boys, 1,178 girls, 3134 students, 44 male, 41 female, 85 teachers

Gurun: 12 schools, 736 boys, 78 girls, 814 students, 18 male, 2 female, 20 teachers

Harput: 27 schools, 2,058 boys, 496 girls, 2,554 students, 49 male, 9 female, 58 teachers

Hinis: 8 schools, 352 boys, 15 girls, 367 students, 11 male, 1 female, 12 teachers

Ispir (artvin): 3 schools, 80 boys, 3 male teachers

Istanbul: 40 schools, 3,316 boys, 2,327 girls, 5,643 students.

Izmir: 27 schools, 1,640 boys, 1,295 girls, 2,935 students, 55 male, 54 female, 109 teachers

Izmit: 38 schools, 5,900 boys, 3,385 girls, 9,285 students, 142 male, 82 female, 224 teachers

Kastamonu; 3 schools, 110 boys, 50 girls, 160 students, 2 male teachers

Kayseri: 42 schools, 3,795 boys, 1140 girls, 4,935 students, 107 male, 18 female, 125 teachers

Kemah: 13 schools, 646 boys, 28 girls, 674 students, 16 male teachers

Kighi: 9 schools, 645 boys, 199 girls, 844 students, 27 male, 5 female, 32 teachers

Konya; 3 schools, 213 boys, 137 girls, 350 students, 6 male, 6 female, 12 teachers

Kutahya: 5 schools, 825 boys, 349 girls, 1174 students, 16 male, 7 female, 23 teaches

Lim and Gduts Islands, Van: 3 schools, 203 boys, 56 girls, 259 students, 5 male, 1 female 6 teachers

Malatya; 9 schools, 872 boys, 230 girls, 1,137 students, 16 male, 3 female, 19 teachers

Marash: 23 schools, 1,261 boys, 378 girls, 1,669 students, 34 male, 10 female, 44 teachers

Mush: 23 schools, 1,034 boys, 284 girls, 1318 students, 31 male, 4 female, 35 teachers

Palu: 8 schools, 505 boys, 50 girls, 555 students, 14 male, 1 female, 15 teachers

Pasen: 7 schools, 315 boys, 7 male teachers

Samsun (Canik): 27 schools, 1,361 boys, 344 girls, 1,705 students, 44 male, 15 female, 59 teachers

Shebinkarahisar: 27 schools, 2,040 boys,  105 girls, 2,145 students, 38 male, 4 female, 42 teachers

Siirt: 3 schools, 163 boys, 84 girls, 247 students, 9 male, 2 female, 11 teachers

Sis/Cilicia: 7 schools, 476 boys, 165 girls, 641 students, 15 male, 4 female, 19 teachers

Sivas: 46 schools, 4,072 boys, 459 girls, 4,531 students, 62 male, 11 female, 73 teachers

Tokat: 11 schools, 1,408 boys, 558 girls, 1,966 students, 37 male, 13 female, 50 teachers

Trabzon: 47 schools, 2,184 boys, 718 girls, 2,902 students, 72 male, 13 female, 85 teachers

Urfa: 8 schools, 1,091 boys, 571 girls, 1,662 students, 19 male, 7 female, 26 teachers

Van: 21 schools, 1,323 boys, 554 girls, 1,877 students, 47 male, 12 female, 59 teachers

Yozgat: 12 schools, 1,179 boys, 557 girls, 1,736 students, 30 male, 13 female, 43 teachers

Zeytun: 10 schools, 605 boys, 85 girls, 690 students, 14 male, 1 female, 15 teachers

These churches and schools were the lifeblood of the Armenians in Turkey. These buildings witnessed countless Armenians’ baptisms, weddings, and funerals; they served as learning centers where eager teachers transferred knowledge to the children; and these buildings became community gathering centers for happy times and sanctuaries during troubled times, until the bitter end at 1915. As the Armenian population got wiped out of Anatolia in 1915, so did these churches and schools. Along with the hundreds of thousands of homes, shops, farms, orchards, factories, warehouses, and mines belonging to the Armenians, the church and school buildings also disappeared or were converted to other uses. If not burnt and destroyed outright in 1915 or left to deteriorate by neglect, they became converted buildings for banks, radio stations, mosques, state schools, or state monopoly warehouses for tobacco, tea, sugar, etc., or simply private houses and stables for the Turks and Kurds.

At present, out of the 34 active Armenian churches in Turkey, only 6 are left standing in Anatolia. The biggest of these buildings is Surp Giragos Church in Dikranagerd/Diyarbakir, the largest Armenian church in the Middle East, which is now being reconstructed as an Armenian church, under the jurisdiction of the Istanbul Armenian Patriarchate. The process of re-claiming more than 200 deeds of lost lands and property belonging to this church has also been initiated. The project funding and construction is already two-thirds complete, with an expected church opening and first Holy Mass to be performed on Oct. 23, 2011. At present, pilgrimage tours are being organized for this historic occasion, along with visits to other historic sites in Eastern Turkey such as Akhtamar/Van and Ani/Kars, continuing to Armenia and Javakhk. There will be more announcements about these tours in the near future.

Sources:

Zakarya Mildanoglu, Agos newspaper April 22, 2011, Istanbul, Turkey

Ottoman Armenian National Council, annual reports 1910-1914, Istanbul, Turkey

Echmiadzin Journal, Yerevan, Armenia 1965-1966 all journals

Dr. H. Hamazasp, Armenian Monasteries in Anatolia, 9 volumes, Vienna Mkhitarist Union, 1940, Vienna, Austria

Raymond Kevorkian and Paul Paboudjian, Les Arméniens dans l’Empire ottoman à la veille du génocide (Armenians in the Ottoman Empire before the Genocide), Paris, 1992

Teotig Lapjinjian, Hayots Koghkota (Armenian Golgotha),  1923, Istanbul, Turkey

Vijagatsuyts, Kavaragan Azkayin Varjaranats Turkiyo, Dedr A-B, Vicag 1901 Darvo (Report on Armenian Schools in Anatolia, Turkey, Booklets 1 and 2, 1901 Status) Armenian National Education Commission Central Directorate, Istanbul, Turkey

Sevan Nishanyan, Adini Unutan Ulke (The Country That Forgot Its Name), Everest Press, 2010, Istanbul, Turkey

1401 Comments on Bedrosyan: Searching for Lost Armenian Churches and Schools in Turkey

  1. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 1, 2011 at 8:26 am // Reply

    Thank you for your article. What about art effects and rare manuscripts looted by French and British Governments?
     

  2. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // August 1, 2011 at 8:52 am // Reply

    It is well known that Ottoman’s abolished Christian Churches …Example is Famous Aya-Sofia 
    But they did not build even a mosque in the islamic states
    and they use to kill muslims in Arabia (Saudi Arabia…Yemen, Middle East, Egypt… )
    Al-Wahabia initiated because of them…
    They harmed every one from Yemen till Anatolia… Europe…were ever they occupied…
    So don’t mention only Christian homes but they are against Islam states as well…
    see what they are doing for Muslim Sunni Kurds… 
    We need an expert to write about the relation of the “Wahabia” and the Ottomans … 
     

  3. very nice, seems that there were more armenians in ottoman lands than turkish..strange why was it than called ottoman empire and not armenian increased numbers of churches and schools empire

  4. @Anadolu. The Ottoman Empire stretched over many lands in which Turks were a minority. Like Palestine, North Africa, the Balkans….
     
    Also, you’re claiming that the Armenians did not form a majority population anywhere in Anatolia. Fine. Let’s say they were a minority. How then could this minority, which was legally prohibited from bearing arms let’s remember, pose an existential threat to the Ottoman Empire which required extinction/relocation???
     
    Turkish denialists like to have it both ways: on the one hand, they say that Armenians were a small minority and thus have no territorial claims; yet at the same time, they claim that this small minority posed a grave threat to the empire which required genocide.
     
    Fantastic and meticulous article by Raffi Bedrosyan.

  5. And, a Turkey still insults the intelligence of so many peoples via their genocides, via so-called alliances, via all sorts of gyrations to distract and destroy great peoples/civilizations that exceed the ancient and advanced societies beyond that which Turks’ can never/ever offer and be capable to share with other nations, whether neighbors, whether on again/off again ANY alliances… ala Turkish style.

  6. avatar Darwin Jamgochian // August 1, 2011 at 1:05 pm // Reply

    I would love to have enhanced reproductions of these maps to put up in my living room.  Perhaps ALMA could provide assistance since they have the where with all for map reproductions. These maps should be displayed in every Armenian Church.   

  7. avatar Robert Kachadourian // August 1, 2011 at 1:19 pm // Reply

    Bravo!!!

  8. avatar Garo Kassabian // August 1, 2011 at 3:10 pm // Reply

    Thank you Raffi for highlighting this issue of Armenian Church and School properties in Ottoman Turkey prior to the 1915 – 1922 Armenian deportations and genocide.
    In addition to thousands of Armenian  churches and schools there were  also as many, centuries old, Armenian cemeteries  at every Armenian town and village and community.  Most of these cemeteries had their own small chapels and were surrounded by high stone-built walls.
    My father who was from Nigde  (born in 1890)  mentions in his written memoires  about the 
    Armenian Church, the Prelacy and the near-by Boys School  and also about the Armenian cemetery which had a two meters high stone wall built all around it and the benefactor’s name “Ghazarosian” displayed above the  main gate.  

  9. Dear Mr. Bedrosyan, Thank you for your article and your extensive research.  You did say that both Kars and Ardahan are excluded from the list.  Please be aware that Smyrna is also excluded from the list.  Since there were more than a 130,000 Armenians living in and around Smyrna region there must have been at least a few Armenian Churches and schools; but there was one very huge, majestic and a renovated Armenian Church and a school in the heart of Smyrna in 1922 before Ataturk’s entering and having the Armenian population annihilated. The Armenians in Smyrna have been present in Smyrna since the 10th century.  After the Lusinyan kingdom collapse in Cilicya a great many Armenians from Cilicya have also migrated to Smyrna as well as after Shah Abbas’ conquering the Armenian Highlands, to save themselves more than 25,000 Armenian families have migrated to Smyrna and to the Archipelagos islands.  In 1650 the SAINT STEPPANNOS CHURCH was built in the heart of Smyrna (Izmir) located in the southskirts of Pakos mountain.  This was an enormous monumental and a majestic Church when in 1845 it was burnt down, and it was then rebuilt by the great engineer Melkon Yeremian who was brought in from Gostantnoubolis to do the job.  St. Steppannos Church had an enormous majestic dome, with double towers.  The entrance had marble floors and inside the Church there was 24 marble pillars/columns with a height of 2,20 meters and 1,12 meters in width.  The Church had seven doors with a raised platform ascending by 40 steps.  The inner part of the Church was wondrous with 10 huge marble pillars; each with 5,50 meters height and 1,90 meters width.  From the entrance of St. Steppannos Church till the altar was 24 meters with a nine meter dome.  The grand senior altar was dedicated to Saint Steppannos, the right part of the altar was dedicated to Saint Hovhannou Garabed and the left part of the altar it was dedicated to Saint Mary, mother of God “Sourp Asdvadsadsin”.  On the two sides of this majestic Church there were additional extended small Churches.  On the right and the left side of the Church; the right “madour” was dedicated to Saint Bartholomew and the left “madour” was dedicated to Saint “Kelxatirin”.   Next to this enormous and beautiful Church of course there was the “Arachnortaran” where the prelate presided with it’s various rooms for the clerics as well as a grand room to receiving guests and the prelate’s bedroom.  This was built in 1858.

    Then the St. MESROBIAN SCHOOL for boys.  Smyrna had no schools until the beginning of the 18th century.  The  ST. HRIPSIME GIRLS SCHOOL  was built 25 years after the boys’ Mesrobian School was built.  But along with Saint Steppanos Church, St. Hripsime Girls School was burnt to ashes in 1845 and this school was also rebuilt in 1880.

    Along with the building of the Church and the schools, the national hospital was also built for the community and the vacinities of the Smyrna populace in 1879.

    All of these are taken from my grandfather Minas’ memoirs, who’s uncle was the Archpriest Der Haroutyoun, who was taken away by the gendarmes and killed and martyred in 1922 right after the burning of Smyrna.  Ironically he was the Archpriest and the right hand “deghabah” of the Archbishop Ghevont Tourian who was the Archbishop of the Armenians in Smyrna for 22 years.  Yet in 1922 Archbishop Ghevont Tourian escaped Smyrna all by himself wearing Latin priest’s clothes and migrated to the United States.  He did not even make an attempt to save the skin of his right hand Arpriest Der Haroutyoun nor the 130,000 Smyrna’s Armenian population.             

  10. My above post that was taken from my grandfather’s Memoirs written in Armenian, I have just translated into English.

    Seervart

  11. avatar ara zeibarian // August 1, 2011 at 3:58 pm // Reply

    i am glad of tigran’s reply! my uncle went to tarsus where my family is from, from time immemeorial. he went a decade or two back, and tried to photograph my grandfather’s house. he was terrified! the turks started gathering around him, they were menacing him is what i’m trying to say.it is unsafe for us to go back from where we came!
    we must have justice–not only for our lost family members who died in the genocide, but to humanize our turkish murderers.

  12. well said Tigran. 

    Paging all Turks and their Turkophile  friends: let’s see you find a way out of the logical dead end Tigran has presented to you Denialists.

  13. avatar Raffi Bedrosyan // August 1, 2011 at 4:30 pm // Reply

    Dear Seervart,
    Smyrna is shown as Izmir, the Turkish name of the city. Thanks for your comments.

  14. Very impressive and touchy story.
    God bless all of you all the times. Amen.
     

  15. Dear Raffi, You are right, I missed to see Izmir on the list while I was looking for Smyrna alone.  You are most welcomed my compatriot; but this overlook of Izmir gave me an incentive today to traslate Minas’ (my grandfather’s) memoirs into English, which gave the historical events of our fine peoples’ migration to Smirna and the existence of a majestic Armenian Saint Steppannos Church of Izmir, so that our generations would be proud today of it’s existence, thanks to the dedication and the ingenuity of our forefathers who have built it.
     
    Dear Bedros, Thanks for the well wishing, and may God bless you and all my compatriots alike!

  16. Excellent Article.. This should be in the chapters of all school history books… every one of them… i would also like to have those old maps if possible…

    Seervart jan- excellent post.. Got goosebumps when I read it.. wow. .your grandfathe is considers a hero in my book.. to witness and also write his memoir so future generation to study and be educated.. he is indeed a hero in my book…

    Tigran jan- WELL SAID.. you hit the nail on its head.. Turkish govt and denialists do EXACTLY that… blame Armenians for taking up arms and rebel against Ottoman Empire not recalling that Armenians were minority.. BUT when it comes to churches, culture, arts, schools, and everything else that was ours, they try to SHOVE the minority number in everyone’s throat.. such bastards.. but we all know how they operate so it does not come surprise to me when this so called Anadolu posted his comment…      

  17. Seervart: Note that Smyrna = Izmir = 23 churches, 27 schools

  18. Dear Gayane, Thank you.  Btw; my grandfather Minas was an educated man of his time.  He was a graduate from the Turkish mililtary school, then after two years he was obligated to serve in the Turkish army; but after the Armenian Genocide happened, he formed his troops and he lead it against the Turks as a “gamavor” Fedayi on the Cilicyan mountains for a year and a half.  Before he wrote his memoirs in a book of the fall of Izmir, he was a distinguished leader, a speaker and an orator amongst Armenians in the Diaspora.

    Halo, Yes I saw it under Izmir the 23 Armenian churches and the 27 Armenian schools, thank y

  19. Yes, it’s true…Armenians, in fact, were not a true ‘minority’, except in a technical sense. Of the 10 million people in Anatolia in 1914, roughly 2 million or somewhat more were idenified as Armenian, and approximately the same number were Turks, Greeks and Kurds. Others, like Assyrians or Jews were true minorities. Moreover, Armenians were the most numerous indigenous people in eastern Anatolia. As such, their history stretches back at least 4000+ years. The fact that they had a massive number of schools, hospitals and churches for hundreds of years should be no surprise to anyone. After such a long settled history, this is the result. It’s called civilization.  Without Armenian civilization, Turks would have nothing.    

  20. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // August 2, 2011 at 4:23 am // Reply

    The map is very painful to every educated culture person not all for Armenians…To know how we lost our educated people and culture…To start from scratch…
    This should be aveiable to ‘Human Rights’ group…congrats for Raffi and his group.
    As far as i can remember from my grandmother…That there was a collage in Diyarbakir
    where my grandfather Mihran Dabbaghian was graduated as well his brothers, cousins (Kazanjian, Simsarian…).Do you regard collages according to this article as schools?

    SP 

  21. Dear Tigran,

    right, as you have correctly mentioned in some areas Turks were not the majority. But Turks did not migrate to those places either, they mostly ruled it with garrison troops and with local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans. But as the Ottoman Empire stretched over vast lands it had also its own mainland with mainly Turkish citizens. And this is today’s Turkey.

    If you have an internal disorder, with rebellious organizations like the dashnak, hushnak or other underground organizations, who by the way attacked and killed peaceful Armenians as well because they stayed firm and allied themselves with the State (Ottoman empire). If you have such organization secretly and sneaky sabotaging, Ottoman army lines, while the state is attacked from everywhere (West, south front, allies – east front Russia,).This is a very critical point, this something which no government on earth would tolerate. Than one should not wonder why for the sake of internal state order, and for the sake of winning the war against the Allies and Russia, the Armenian population had to be relocated. Is it not strange while for centuries the Armenians were known to be loyal to the state, but due to foreign intervention und and underground organizations, this peaceful neighborhood came to an end. It maybe because of wrong politics. Please note war is a disaster for human mankind, while many Armenians lost their lifes, so too did other Ottoman citiziens lose their lifes and that was no less.

    And if you show here churches and school’s, one should also keep in mind, that most of these buildings were created during the peaceful coexistence between the various ethnic groups, while protected by the state.

  22. Slyva – in those days in Turkey, a ‘college’ was the term used for a high school, not a university. My grandfather attended Euphrates College, and learned English there. As such, he had a great education and was consdered to be a very well educated guy, even though he never attended university.

  23. Karekin-efendi:    Why do you refer to those days when a college was the term used for a high school? Those days are long gone. Step into the real world where the rubber meets the road. For the first time in many centuries, we have an azad Hayastan that’s survived more than just a few years, and you wallow in the past when your grandfather attended Euphrates College and learned English there. You are drowning in your own remembrances. Be fearful for the survival of the nation because of practical considerations on the ground, such as hostile neighbors. No need to drown in remembrances that the same hostile neighbors caused annihilation of your nation. Learn nothing from the past. Never look back. Keep your eye on the real prize, which lies in the future, which in your imaginary world exists without the past.

  24. avatar Robert Kachadourian // August 2, 2011 at 9:25 am // Reply

    Though the term “college” was technically a high school by today’s standards it is equivalent to today’s colleges.  Having studied the curriculum of those days of high schools in the US, their studies were more rigid than US colleges of today.

    So the broad use of the word college would be on the same level of a high school in that period of time.  However, the high school of that period had a more rigorous approach to studies than the colleges of today.

    Therefore,  the reference to Euphrates College as a college would be a correct term.

  25. Anadolu.. you sound THE EXACT SAME denialist and closed minded with misfit and misinformation like your comrads that we know very well..

    Your words ring loud and familiar.. it was a war, it was Armenian groups who rebelled, Armenian underground organized groups killed Armenians, both Turks and Armenians  lost lives..war is a disaster….. ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS???? are you listening to yourself? another one to the long list of arrogant,  lost denialist Turk..

    Avery, Karo, Armen, Boyajian, Seervart, Katia and my other well versed in history comrads, please please please educate this poor and lost soul about the TRUE history behind what happened in the Ottoman Empire time.. because he is giving me an ulcer when he speaks with such nonsense….     

    Gayane

  26. Anadolu,

    You have avoided my question, and contradicted yourself once again. Your logic: hunchaks and Dashnaks were rebelling and killing even peaceful Armenians, therefore “Armenian population” had to be relocated. I’m confused. Hunchaks and Dashnaks=Armenian population? Didn’t you just imply that these ‘rebellious’ groups were a minority (‘underground’), and the mainstream Armenians stayed loyal to the state? Keep trying to rationalize genocide, I’m enjoying pointing out your logical contradictions.

  27. this one is Tigran’s case , Gayane.
    Let him have some of the fun. Let’s wait a little. He’ll let us know if he’s busy and want us to take over. 

  28. “[…]in some areas Turks were not the majority. But Turks did not migrate to those places either.”

    Anadolu, they did. Before the establishment of the House of Osman, Seljuk Turks and Mongols—the ancestors of the Ottoman and modern-day Turks—did migrate from the steppes of Mongolia and Central Asia and the mountains of Altay.
     
    “[…]local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans.”
    Now the Turkish commentators changed the tune, huh? Now they tell us that native rulers were allied with the Ottomans. Alliance suggests a voluntary action, which historically it was not. Native peoples and their rulers were colonized by the Ottomans, and under restrictions imposed on them as millets had to maintain unhappy existence under the Turkish yoke.
     
    “If you have an internal disorder, with rebellious organizations like the dashnak, hushnak or other underground organizations[…]secretly and sneaky sabotaging Ottoman army lines, while the state is attacked from everywhere, […t]his is a very critical point, this is something which no government on earth would tolerate.”
    By the mid-19th-early 20th centuries, all colonized nations in the Ottoman empire—Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Albanians, Armenians, and even your fellow Muslim Arabs—wished to slough off colonial shackles and live as independent nations. From the perspective of these nations, it was nothing else than freedom-fighting, struggle for liberation. But let’s get to the point which you characterize as ‘critical’, i.e. no government on earth would tolerate [the struggle of the colonized peoples] which you call internal disorder. It is, indeed, critical, because if we forget for a second that those nations’ struggle was just, in civilized nations governments take into custody those few who stir unrest. Were there a few Armenians revolutionaries longing for freedom for their countrymen? You bet there were, as they were in any nation that ultimately seceded from the Ottomans. But the critical point is that Ottoman Turks preferred not to take into custody those few, but exterminate 2 million innocent people representing one of the most ancient civilizations inhabiting the Earth. On an individual level, if you’re a ‘criminal’, however righteous your motives are, and I’m a gendarme representing a state which, as you say, won’t tolerate unrest, what do you think would be my actions against you? Would I place you, as a perceived criminal, under arrest or I’d rape your mother and sister in front of you, mutilate your father, decapitate your brother, and rip off the womb of your pregnant little sister? This is not an horror movie, Anadolu. These are the barbarian methods of your granfathers.

    The concern of the Ottoman Turks with regard to Armenians was not the internal state order that a few Armenian revolutionaries couldn’t possibly disrupt. After all, there was no single organized mass violence by Armenians against the Turks before 1915. Put your hand on your heart and refer me to any such a mass disorder that Ottoman Armenians caused against the state, even in a Turkish source. You’ll find none. After all, Armenians lived in their majority in the areas fa-a-a-r removed from the frontlines of WWI. The major concern of your savage grandfathers was to secure as much lands from the crumbling Ottoman empire as possible. With the Balkans, Middle East, and Arabia gone, independent Armenians, residing for millennia in the eastern parts of the empire and Cilicia, could have meant the end of Turkish presence in eastern Anatolia. This is the critical point that, I’d dare to say, all of historians agree upon.

  29. Anadolu, even during the ottoman times Armenia was called ARMENIA in every document ,be it the European or Ottoman document!

  30. Avery.. you are right..:) Tigran did a great job and I am sure he would want to say something in regards to Anadolu’s comments.. so we will wait..

    However, I want to say Gor did an excellent job replying to Anadolu… well said Gor jan..

    Gayane  

  31. Dear Gor, Thank you for the good answers and the examples that you gave to Anadolu, I couldn’t have said it better.  I just wish to add that Dashnaktsutyun nor Henchagyans were not underground organizations but very dignified and respectful nationalistic organizations to save Armenians from the Turkish mobs; and they were created right around the Hamidian massacres when Abdul Al Hamid II annihilated 300,000 Armenians on the highlands of Armenia from 1895-1896.  Even then the Turks wanted to do away with the Armenians; all of them.  Henchagyans first then Dashnagtsutyun were created because Armenians were constantly and continuously were being targeted by the Turkish mob in Turkey.  Ever since the Mongolian Seljuk Ottoman Turks came from the middle of Asia in the 10th century, Armenians didn’t have peace.  The entire Armenian population were living in fear every day of their lives; the little boys were being stolen from their mothers, which the Turks made “yenicheris” out of them; which meant, the Turks created a huge Turkish army out of our little stolen boys.  Then our most beautiful women were targeted to be stolen either for the Turks’ harems or whatever their desires were at the time (to rape and kill them or to keep them as their wives in their harems).  Armenians were never safe in their lands living within the Turkish yoke and living next to the Turkish people.  That’s why Henchagyans and Dashnagtsuyun organizations were created to somehow bring safety and solace for the local Armenian people who only worried to go about their jobs, to mind the crops, the sheeps, build bridges, Monasteries, Churches and sing their songs.  When the Ittihadists (the jeneus Turks) came in 1908 they wanted to finish the job of Abdul Hamid, to completely do a thorough annihilation of the Armenians.  They realized that the Armenian question must be finished right then and there and with their bloody criminal bloodsoaked hands. 

  32. To finish my point above is this.  Why the jeunes Turks, the Ittihadists wanted to finish with the Armenian question and kill all the Armenians, perhaps most of us Armenians didn’t know it 50 or so years ago, in another words most of our anscestors probably didn’t know it either; but today most of us know the real reasons of the Armenian Genocide by the hands of the Ittihadists.  They were jealous of Armenians because they were hard working ingenius people and most were very rich, especially the ones who were in the trade business, they were jealous because they wanted their people to take over the businesses and the riches of the Armenians.  They wanted all of Western Armenian lands, but without Armenians.  It was all for money.  Yes lands too, but it was mostly for money.

  33. Let us all remember what Talaat Pasha asked to the U.S. ambassador Morgenthau in and around 1918, after he had most of the Armenians killed by that time and the women and the children were sent into the death marches of southern Arabia by his own orders.  “Do you know where all the insurance papers of the Armenians are”, Talaat asked to Morgenthau.  “They are all dead now, could you give me their insurance papers, so that I will collect their insurance monies?”  This is what Talaat asked to ambassador Morgenthau, and Morgenthau shook his head with disgust and didn’t give him any such insurance forms. 

  34. ANADOLU!
    I think you’d find better acceptance amongst other Turkish apologists and revisionists elsewhere rather than wasting your (and our) time staying in this forum.

  35. Dear Gayane,

    and you sound like the typical person who in his mind prefers an exaggerated adoration of anything that harms Turks. Fact is whoever did wrong did wrong, and God does not like people who do wrong indifferent to which ethnic group he belongs, but when you try to exaggerated things in order to win your case, than this is no help.

  36. Dear Gor,

    if you go back to the times before the Ottoman empire, yes of course Turks migrated from the Asian steps. But this kind of migrations is a human attitude and not merely something that only Turks have doneJ. Armenians maybe also connected to the Persians, before they migrated from Mesopotamia.
    “[…]local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans
    Yes some alliance were made by force some were voluntarily, see Algeria, Tunis, Libya
    Colonized? Please compare the colonization with France, Spain, Belgium, Britain and the Ottomans.
    In the European Parliament, a Greek deputy recently thanked the Ottomans for their fare treatment. As rightly remember, he said thank you that we still can speak our own language it is not normal to speak its own native language after 500 years Ottoman rule. If you keep in mind American or African natives. Anyway I need to continue work, otherwise I’ll get firedJ.
    We may have different perceptions, but I respect the Armenians since we are actually the same people from the same lands.

  37. The history is irrefutable, Armenians have lived in Anatolia since time immemorial. That cannot be denied. There have been many ups and downs during that history. That cannot be denied. But, just as contemporary Mayan or Incan Indians do not maintain a seething anger against the Spanish, despite their horribly low status in their own lands, it does not serve Armenians to stew in anger, either. The real question is, how long does it go on?  WHen does your focus turn from injuries of the past to securing our future?  History is fine, but it does not feed, clothe or heat people’s homes. Thousands upon thousands are leaving Armenia because there are no jobs there and they cannot survive. What is your answer for this situation?

    Robert – yes, I appreciate your assesment about the academic standards at places like Yeprad College. They were, in fact, very high.

       

  38. Anadolu:    Please don’t ‘Dear’ me as a typically Turkish cajolery. Thanks for admitting that Turks are a migrant nation. This must open your eyes to the fact that your forefathers never belonged in Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau. I understand that migrations are characteristic to many peoples, but we’re talking here about a Seljuk/Mongol migration that brought devastation and mass death to highly-developed civilizations inhabiting Asia Minor: Byzantine Greek, Assyrian, and Armenian. Do you appreciate the difference between a mere migration and a migration that was, in essence, a military invasion resulted in destruction of sedentary peoples and their cultural achievements? After invasion and throughout colonization of those peoples, they were physically annihilated in the early 20th century by the Turks. Can you find any mass of Greeks, Armenians, or Assyrians in modern-day Turkey? If migrations, as you said, are ‘human attitude’, are invasions, colonization, and mass physical extermination of indigenous peoples also a ‘human attitude’?
     
    BTW: There are many hypotheses of the origin of the Armenian people, but none mentions Mesopotamia as Armenian homeland. Whether Armenians originated in an area where they lived until being mass murdered by the Turks or not, there is no historical evidence that’d suggest that Armenians caused destruction on massive scale to any indigenous civilizations and then presented other peoples’ cultural edifices as their own, a widespread practice of modern-day Turks with regard to the remnants of the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian churches, monasteries, and cemeteries.
     
    Alliances and colonization.   I speak for Christian Armenians, and also for Greeks and Assyrians, if I may, not for Muslim nations. Some of them might have entered voluntary alliances with the Turks. However, most of the indigenous peoples that Seljuks invaded and Ottomans colonized didn’t invite your ancestors to do so. They fought. They resisted invasions. They were disgruntled by the fact of colonization, even your fellow Muslim Arabs, whose intelligentsia were hanged in Allepo. It was a sheer colonization that made native peoples miserable, voiceless millets under the Ottomans. I don’t have to compare Ottoman colonization with the colonization of the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British for one major reason. Beside grief and oppression, the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British also brought development and civilization to the nations they colonized. Ottoman Turks, descendants of uncivilized nomadic barbarians, brought nothing but grief and oppression which in the late 19th-early 20th centuries culminated into mass physical extermination of all Christian peoples in the Ottoman empire. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Assyrians were exterminated. Armenians suffered the most heinous form of extermination: the genocide and forced deportation of 2 million innocent human beings. Show me any such barbarism during the colonization by the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British? Can you?

    I don’t know what a Greek deputy said in the European Parliament, but the only two major rights that were allowed for Ottoman millets to have were language and restricted practice of religion. The Greek deputy must have forgotten that witness accounts of a Christian against a Turk were disregarded in Ottoman courts; that Christians were unbearably overtaxed as compared to Turks; that Christians were barred from carrying weapons; that Christian villages were subject to constant pillages, loot, and abductions by Muslim bands that always went unpunished; that the windows of a Christian house must not have overlooked the windows of a Turkish house; that Christians were not allowed to mount a horse in order not to be higher than a pedestrian Turk. This we know for sure. Is this called Turkish ‘civilization’?

    Lastly, Armenians and Turks are not ‘the same people from the same lands’. We are an Arian people, not barbarians.Our language belongs to the Indo-European family of language, not Turkic Oghuz family. We are a sedentary people, not nomads. Our lands traditionally were the Armenian Plateau in the easternmost part of Asia Minor, not in the Central Asian steppes and the Altay Mountains. We are the first nation to adopt Christianity as official religion, not Muslims. We’re known by our contributions to the world civilization in arts and sciences, business and trade, architecture, and military art, not by invasions, colonization, and genocide of other nations.
     

  39. Karekin-bey, borrowing from Avery, I refuted your mumblings in other threads, and, make no mistake, will do so whenever and wherever you pop off. Again, contemporary Mayan or Incan Indians, although seen colonization by Conquistadors, continue to live in their historic homeland. Armenians, in contrast, were mass murdered by the Turks and their historic homeland stolen from them as a result.
     
    When does our focus turn from injuries of the past to securing our future? Whenever the murderer apologizes to the victim.

    What is our answer for the situation where thousands are leaving Armenia because there are no jobs there? This situation has been created by what you think cannot feed, clothe or heat people’s homes: history. Landlocked modern-day Armenia is the consequence of the historical fact of theft of Western Armenia by the Turks. Struggling modern-day Armenia is the consequence of the historical fact of physical extermination of Western Armenians and theft of their property and bank accounts.
     
    Not to see this obvious historical link means either playing ostrich or tilting minds. The latter ain’t gonna happen…

  40. To Karekin
    The elderly go mostly to Russia  and accept citizenship to receive pension which Russia owes them since they’ve worked all they life for Soviet Union,and  Russia kept the funds.So it’s justified!And there is no requirement to live there,that’s why everyone returns after they do all the paperwork .I am an Armenian from Armenia,and i know this.

  41. Anadolu,

    FYI- I am not a man.. I am a woman..

    Second of all—–you said
     Fact is whoever did wrong did wrong, and God does not like people who do wrong indifferent to which ethnic group he belongs, but when you try to exaggerated things in order to win your case, than this is no help.
     You just described A TRUE, CODE RED TURKISH DENIALIST …. you hit the nail on its head.. now you understand how your govt is trying to do harm to Armenian people….BY EXAGGERATING their  lies and consequences of not following its orders to be SOOOOOOOOOO DAMAGING that no country especially USA would want to extend the wipping hand toward Turks…meaning having those countries to punish Turkey by any means and say Turkish govt YOU ARE GUILTY and YOU NEED TO CONFESS AND MAKE THINGS RIGHT….

    You speak of GOD???? YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUu??? now this is a first… but unfortunately you used our Lord Jesus Christ in a completly wrong way.. so instead of using GOD which I doubt your ancestors even remotely understood what HE stands for because my people were slaughtered just because they were Christians, you should not talk… but you should truly listen and read things that my friends provide to you.. information you might have never heard of.. So open your eyes and ears and pay attention.. You might be saved… i hope you will..

    Gayane  

  42. Seervart jan— apres.. loved it…:)

    Karekin- I hear you but i don’t get you.. how can you continue to preach the same thing again: history is history and we need to move on.. WE WILL NOT MOVE ON UNTIL JUSTICE IS SERVED my friend.. you do get that right?…

    No on on these pages want to neglect the fact that our country is getting smaller and smaller because alot of our sisters and brothers  leave.. and YES.. that is a problem… a problem that needs to be fixed immediately and no one is denying.. however, we can’t just leave what has been in the works for years and the struggle and the time and money and efforts we put in to accomplish what we started and DESERVE… and that is correcting the history TUrks rewrote about the ARmenians, get them recognize what their ancestors have done and give back what their ancestors have stolen…… without this, they will remain as the murderors who got away with murder.. tha is UNACCEPTABLE.. however, at the same time we need to work ongetting our country back on its feet with whatever means we have.. that is what I am doing.. but we can’t leave one and just concentrate on the other.. These two matters go hand in hand…

    Thank you

    Gayane      

  43. Gor jan… EXCELLENT.. loved reading your comments.. Avery was right.. you definintely are doing your part and I am sooooo glad… hopefully Anadolu and his pathetic friends and we all know who they (actually i am surprised none of them peeked their ugly heads in these thread but i have a feeling someone will pop up sooner or later)  are reading such posts and maybe learning something true…. i am just hoping…

  44. It is amazing that Turkish-trolls never tire of digging up and gloating over bad news from Armenia, yet never seem to be able to find any good news about Armenia in the same world-wide-web. “…maybe there are no good news from Armenia,” you ask innocently ?
    Au contrair, mon ami.
     
    Someone in another thread recently said, “…Read it and weep, folks….”, while linking to yet another article of woes of Armenia.
     
     
    Well, Armenian folks and  friends, read and rejoice. “Armenia registers second industrial growth among CIS states”. (News.am) 
    http://news.am/eng/news/69934.html   

    With all the roadblocks being thrown at RoA, they are able to achieve this much.
    Just imagine what our people could do with access to the Black Sea and the worlds oceans – to have low-cost, reliable trade and transportation routes.
    (BTW: that same somebody also asked what we, Armenians, would do when we get back Western Armenia (that’s right, I said when)). 

  45. AMEN to that Avery jan.. AMEN…

    If we only had the free trade and open borders and sound govt.. we will absolutely rule the area….Turks know this very well…they know that we were superior in education, trade, arts, and culture back then; which is why they attempted to destroy us and they know that now.. which is why they are doing EVERYTHING not to allow that to happen.. but WHEN that happens.. and yes Avery jan I am with you on this.. WHEN that happens, there is no stopping…

    Gayane   

  46. another piece of cheerful news from Turkey that Turkish-trolls somehow missed, and we cheerfully bring to your attention: ‘Turks lack knowledge, learn from television’ (source Hurriyet).

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=8216turks-lack–knowledge-learn-from–television8217-2011-08-02

     

  47. Gayane, although I sympathize with and understand your sentiments and where they come from, keep in mind…no country on earth has ever won a multi-front war, and that’s exactly what this is. So, you have to pick your battles carefully. We do not have alot of resources, so, I think the most important thing is to protect what we have, rather than spend time and energy on what we’ve lost. I know it sounds painful, but why risk what we have?  Why risk the lives of those living in Armenia now and worse, the viability of the entire country?  Someone who is always looking backwards will usually walk into a ditch or a wall, because they are not looking ahead. Sounds corny, but it’s a truism that is worth noting here. 

  48. Avery jan.. thank you for the link about the Turkish lack knowledge piece.. I read it and I also commented on the article…

    one section of the article nailed it:
    When asked whether or not they would be eager to attend an educational program that could help them with commonly encountered problems, between 57 and 65 percent of the families surveyed said it was “not necessary” and added that information from TV and newspapers was sufficient to solve their problems.

    This is why we have so many denialists such as Roberts, Anadolus, Murats, and alike…because they are not educated enough of what is true history, they don’t know their own history let alone try to understand others, they are oblivious, deprived from what every day man and woman needs to know to be independent.. i mean this is why Turkish govt wants though. because they can control them like puppets.. it is sad…

    Gayane   
       

  49. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 3, 2011 at 5:34 pm // Reply

    I agree! Every Armenian church must display historic Armenia as well. I would make sure, my church does display these maps. I expect you do the same.

  50. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 3, 2011 at 5:48 pm // Reply

    Theoritically, all interested parties in the region seek peace. It would be in interest of all these parties in the region to have a viable Armenian state. Without ARARAT and without access to the black see, there would not be peace in Armenia and in the region as well. Without ARARAT, Armenians are beings with lost soul. I cannot imagine Armenia without ARARAT. Legally, ARARAT belongs to Armenia. The reason for those unfortunate protocols were to legalize the current boarder between Turkey and Armenia which implies that the current boarder is not legal otherwise there would not have been any reason to include those provisions. Only way there would be peace between Turks and Armenians is that Turks return our Western Armenia pay punitive damages for their genocide against Armenians. Every Armenian is obligated to pursue these goals if he or she is proud to be called an Armenian.

  51. “I think the most important thing is to protect what we have, rather than spend time and energy on what we’ve lost.”   —-Following the same ‘logical’ magnum opus by Karekin-bey, Gayane, in 1988-1994 Armenians should have only protected the Republic, not freedom-fighting Artsakh that was lost to Azeristan as a result of Stalin’s transfer in the early 1920s. See, what Socrates-like ‘logic’ the guy has… Amazing logic!

  52. Asa eh Karo jan.. Asa.. bayts inch anem? Karekin just can’t get it.. i know where he is coming from, i understand it but the way he goes about it is all wrong… he is just concentrated on ONE thing.. and that ain’t happening with me. no way…well what can we do? that is the way he is I guess…

  53. Avery,

    Recntly you asked me for a source of my info about Armenia-German connection. I could not remember then, but today I coincidentally came across that again.
    If you go to armeniansworld.com and scroll down to “ARmenian God AR and Hayk Forefather” click on it then scroll down a bit you will find it.  
     

  54. AR:  I checked the link: an interesting site. ‘Stephanie Nazoyan from Canada’ is really beautiful.

    OK, on to more unpleasant stuff.

    re: “Thousands of years later, in the first century AD, another Armenian leader, bearing the sacred name of his kinsmen — Armen or Ar-Man, known Armin[ius] to the Romans and Herman [German]…” 

    I know of Arminius, but not as an Armenian. If he were Armenian, and  neither German nor Roman sources would reveal it –  would be no surprise. However, the citation in the link is weak: there are no precise dates, nor how he got to Germany from Armenia and such, with 30,000 Armenian horsemen: that’s a huge number in those days; there would be record of their travels.  Maybe the author did not have space, but I will have to check other Armenian historians. I don’t remember any other source that cites Arminius as Armenian, but one never knows. For now though, I have to assume he is not. Sorry.

    If I find other sources confirming it, I’ll post. 

  55. Gor, I welcome your intellectual inputs on these pages of AW and I appreciate your last post as well.  Thank you.

    @Anadolu,  I have never heard that Armenians migrated and or came from Mesopotamia.  More than 5,000 years ago Armenians were tribal people and some came from the Thrace region, while others came from today’s north-western Greece, the Hiasa’s, Nairi’s then migrated to the Armenian Highlands and were mixed  with the Urartians in

  56. Avery,
    One of the most valuable ARmenians alive, Alexander Varpetyan, also covers that topic.  I don’t remember where exactly he does, but he was my original source for ARmeno-German connection.

  57. Dear Tigran,
    The Huchnaks and Dashnaks, had their aims. And anything what stood against it had to be removed, why don’t you check the manifesto  of these groups.(see below one citation). It’s not much different than today’s terrorist groups, or the communist cells that killed through terrorist acts government staff and ordinary citizens. The Huchnak and Dashnaks were recruiting more Armenians, which were radicalized by their propaganda, but Armenians who lived in welfare were not interested in that.
    To create social chaos against which the Ottoman army would react and to thereby ensure the intervention of Western powers in the situation.
    All was very well planed, create chaos, attack muslim citizens (in oder to have revenge and killings), by that it would be blamed to the Ottoman State. Ask western countries for help because Armenians were killed, with the assistance of Western Consuls and it’s Christian missionaries assisting the Huchnak and Dashnak propaganda in transmitting it to western public opinion.

  58. One more example:
    The first move adopted on April 24, 1915 was to ban all Armenian committees and to arrest 2.345 leaders for crimes against the State. The date of April 24, commemorated by the Armenians abroad as the anniversary of genocide against Armenians, is the date of these arrests and has nothing to do with the replacement.
    The Etchmiasin Patriarch, a priest named Kevork, sent the following cable to the United States President upon this move:
    Mr. President, according to the latest news received from the Turkish Armenia, a massacre started there and an organised terror has put the Armenian lives in danger. In this precarious moment, I am addressing to the noble sentiments of the great American nation and ask you to intervene immediately through your Great Republic’s diplomatic representation for protecting my people left to the mercy of the violence of Turkish fanaticism, on behalf of humanity and Christian belief.
    Kevorg, Ecumenic Patriarch of all Armenians.
    This cable was followed by the Washington contacts of the Russian Ambassador.
    The incident here was merely the banning of Armenian committees and the arrest of the culprits. Yet, the Armenians endeavoured to display it as a massacre and to rally the United States and Russia into their ranks.

  59. Anadolu – the Armenian political parties – which were working with the leaders of the CUP, were taking steps to 1) stop unfair taxation and reform land ownership issues 2) defend their towns and villages from government sponsored (Kurdish) raids and 2) move towards autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, what would bring the benfits of the millet system to a political level. Even though they had seen Greece and other territories gain independence earlier, that was not their original aim. It was not until they were betrayed by the leaders of the CUP did they become more emphatic in trying to protect the Armenian population. You may see this as ‘terrorist’ activity, but from the Armenian point of view, it was purely self-defense. The response by the CUP was a multi-year, murderous rampage designed to get rid of Armenians, steal everything they owned and had created, and open up space for Muslims who were leaving the Balkans and the Caucasus. It many ways, it was the precursor of the idea promoted by Hitler, to open more space for Germans. And, the result was the same…national disaster, not just for Armenians, but for Turks, Greeks and everyone else who had lived under the Ottoman umbrella. Most nations have their creation myths, and Ataturk, by erasing as much evidence as possible, sought to reprogram people’s minds. His propaganda effort…to elevate the word ‘Turk’, while demoting those who had actually built and supported the empire for centuries, the Armenians and Greeks, was racist to the core. It’s almost laughable, because he himself, was not a Turk at all…and he expanded the stain created by the Ittihadists. This, Turkey for the Turks (many of whom were never really Turks at all)….concept created misery and pain for millions of people for decades. You can’t blame Armenians for any of that….it was self-created by Turkey’s revered, if criminal, leaders, who by the way, ran the country with an iron fist.       

  60. It was indeed a massacre planned and carried out as such. The goal was to exterminate community leaders with the goal of drowning out those that might raise their voices to outside powers/publicize the continued deterioration of situation with regards to the Christian population in Turkey. And guess what happened to the vast majority of those 2,345 Armenians (the vast majority of whom were not involved in politics and none of whom called for the overthrow of the Ottoman state)? They were killed. No explanation, no trial, just taken from their families wholesale  and killed. Soon after the roundups and massacres of Armenians in the interior intensified (these had actually begun in late 1914) and now in areas nowhere near “the front”. 

    The Hunchak and Dashnaks will always be the red herring for Turks and used as an excuse. Again, the vast majority of Armenians were not involved in politics, were not party members, and were just trying to survive from day to day (an awful like the Kurds today–Turks never learn I guess. They de-populated and destroyed thousands of villages, made life miserable for the Kurdish population for decades in order to eliminate a few thousand members of the PKK but in the process have ensured that the PKK continues to gain new membership through their heavy-handed methods. How is that working for Turkey? And they Turks have the audacity to complain about the light of Palestinians, Uighurs, etc—-hypocrisy). While the Hunchaks were the more radical of the two– and also a very small membership, the Dashnaks were eager to work with the CUP but were eventually betrayed by the Pan-Turk elements that took charge. Some of those 2,345 were actually parliament members when they were killed. 

    That priest had every right to notify outside forces about the situation. Where else could he turn, the Ottoman authorities? The ones that were committing this crime? Would you trust a government that is terrorizing your people?

     

  61. Dear Gor,
    To Dear you is not a typically Turkish cajolery It’s a standard way of starting a correspondence with each other. And second it’s a form of respect nothing else. Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier some later. Some have fought battles for it and defended it successfully and some conquered lands. Before Turks arrived, there was War as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian wars over Anatolia. You exaggerate again, Byzantine Greek was so great so wonderful yes, and you forgot the heavy taxation of the Greeks and how badly they treated non Greek citizens. If after the Turks settled between Armenians and Kurds and all with it brought great devastation and mass death over centuries as you said, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?
    Armenian people, so if you are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accept the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians. Or mix marriages. But in your mind of course it would only forced mixes through harems and enslaving. In those days every nation enslaved other as a spoil of war, so don’t worry it was not a mere Turkish practice.
    Colonization, the French massacred almost 1 million Algerians this is only to mention so it was not only mere oppression and grief. Spaniards who destroyed and killed and totally annihilated South America in the early colonization British who murdered peaceful American Indians, Native African but no problem they were all uncivilized right? Where are the Indian American now, in reservation camps? What is left of Native American nothing, right nothing is left.
    Lastly, your comparison shows just how deep frustrated you have become with all this extreme stories about so called brutal Turks and innocent Armenians. Radical Armenians killed and massacred so many innocent Turkish and Kurdish citizens, and at this fact you won’t even look, but for you Turks and Kurds are uncivilized and barbarians. If you show such hatred, do not wonder why people take measures in order to protect themselves from hatred. I guess this ideological hatred against the Turks and Kurds, brought the actual war between the people of Ottoman Empire.

  62. Children gather around for tonight’s happy fairytale.
     
    There was this mythical paradise called Ottoman Empire, where Christians and Muslims lived happily as equals.
    Turks, whom the indigenous Armenians had invited to come in from their homeland near the Altai Mountains, treated their gracious hosts with great respect and love. Armenian boys, girls, and young women were lovingly abducted and subjected to …. lovemaking.
     
    Armenians were allowed to ride horses, same as Turks.
    Armenians were allowed to testify against Turks in court, same as other Muslims.
    Armenians were taxed at the same rate as Turks.
     
    In 1895,  300,000-500,000 Armenians were lovingly massacred by their caring Father, Sultan Hamid.
    In 1909, another 30,000 Armenians were lovingly massacred in Adana. 
    There were regular massacres to show Armenians how much they were loved and appreciated.
     
     
    All that love and harmony came to an abrupt  and tragic end in 1915. Evil foreigners from Salonika, who were not Turks, decided to disrupt the peace and harmony that existed between Armenians and Turks, the Christians and Muslims.  They were not Turks, they were not even Muslims – but presented themselves as such. They were of that “other” religion. They were, umm, ummm,…..,Jooos. Even their leader Mustafa Kemal was a Joo.
     
    So they succeeded in destroying the Ottoman Paradise, exterminated 1.5 million Armenians, several hundred thousand Greeks and Assyrians – and succeeded in blaming it all on Turks: a false, scurrilous accusation.
     
    Go to bed now children. Happy dreams.

  63. Avery jan.. you are the best.. can’t get enough of your posts… i swear you just make these discussion so much interesting.. i truely enjoyed your last post.. You just made Anadolu look so small with his nonsense that I hope he stops embarassing himself over and over again.. it does not seem like he gets the point that his comments sound sooo stupid because his notion of history is soooooooo distracted by what he was fed by the TUrkish govt that it is sickening…thank you..i was laughing… :)

    Gayane

  64. Anadolu- Please STOP… WOW.. i don’t know if you are truly ignorant about the facts of life and hstory or you just being intentionally ignorant and can’t stop yourself from writing soo much garbage?? i don’t get it..

    You said
    Armenian people, so if you are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accept the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians. Or mix marriages

    ok so you have lived thousands years ago and had a Mesopotamian family friend right? you know how they look like… well if you are that educated, why don’t you give us an example of how Mesopotamians look like because I have no idea… i have never seen one myself… obviously you have in your lifetime, otherwise you would not be so sure that we look like them…

    Why do we look like Turks??? We DONT look like TUrks.. .Turks look like US… unfortunately, indigenous Armenian race was fair skin and light eyes..  you know why this dynamic changed over?? ummmmmmm….welllll… knowing that your capacity of true history is limited or simply just not there, i would say because of rape, forceful marriages and adbuctions of beautiful Armenian women by your barbaric ancestors… your ancestors had a plan.. to mix their genes with Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians.. because these people were simply more beautiful…your race is pleaseant to look at  because of our beautiful women.. you should thank us for giving you good looking genes.. the mixed marriages you speak of is the product of Genocide and not because Armenians were dying to mix with your barbaric ancestors… I know it sounds harsh but reality and truth usually does…… so you stand corrected on this statement…….

    Many Armenian accepted Islam? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? if any of them who accepted Islam is ONLY because they had NO CHOICE.. NO CHOICE you hear me.. don’t act like Armenians were dying to join the Islam and accept that as their religion… They did that to survive from your barbaric ancestors… do you understand that much? No Armenian in their right mind will turn to Islam.. We are Christians and we will remain as such….So you stand corrected on this statement as well.. Where do you get this stuff?? Who provides you this nonsense???….      

    You said:  If after the Turks settled between Armenians and Kurds and all with it brought great devastation and mass death over centuries as you said, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?

    ummmmm because Armenians were already established before the barbarians arrived and it took some time before Turks realized Armenians are better than them and they can’t allow them to live or else … soooo Anadolu to answer your question… Armenians have ALWAYS been superior in their intellect, culture, arts, music, trade than Turks.. maybe after you realize this much, then you will understand why your ancestors attempted to wipe out a race tha they were intimidated of…so don’t act like the Ottomans allowed Armenians to be rich businessmen, or built churches and schools…. so you stand corrected on this statement ….

    I feel like this is a nonstop rollercoaster with your denalists… we turn one and another pops up… Do you mind letting us know where you received your education about Armenian history and GEocide??? I would like to understand where you are coming from and what sources you get your information… i would suggest though..turn to sources OUTSIDE OF your Turkish propaganda pages, and learn from Non-Turkish sources… the information you will learn will enlighten and astonish you… it may be hurtful because you will know the truth but nonetheless it will be very helpful…    who knows ????

    Gayane  
     

      
      

  65. Karekin–great post. Well done.

  66. Anadolu:    We’re not involved in the exchange of official correspondence so you must start your comments with a mandatory salutation ‘Dear’. I take it as a mockery. Please refrain. Least of all I need ‘respect ’ from a Turk whose ancestors buried my paternal relatives alive near Digranakert (Diyarbekir). You’ll soon get rebuttals to each and every historically distortive excuse that you offered for the Turkish mistreatment and genocide of Armenians. Until then, drink a cup of coffee and continue daydreaming about what highly-civilized, peaceful, and human life-respecting nation the Turks are.

  67. Anadol brought up an interesting point regarding genetics. The Turks were asiatic nomads in Central Asia, much more akin to physical attributes of Mongolians and more specifically Uighurs. Along there westward the Turks adopted Islam, mixed with the Persians, (adopted many Persian loan words and customs). During the time the Byzantines were in flux. Through warfare, kidnapping, rape etc, the Seljuks (and later the Osmalis) appropriated the bloodlines of Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks (Kurds also to a degree though at this time they were located in northern Persia what is now northern Iraq)This would be repeated in the Balkans. THe vast majority of Turks are now related more closely to the aforementioned peoples than their Central Asia forbearers. Some Turks (though few) have retained their Central Asia lineage- namely the Yuruks and some minor Turcoman family groups now living in Central Anatolia. These tribesmen followed a century or so after the initial Seljuk and Osman push. That being said, beyond language the all the trappings of Turkish culture, cuisine, architecture, etc come from Persians, Greek, Armenians, Assyrians, Slav. You cannot fault them for this. You can only fault them for trying to hide it 

  68. avatar Western Armenia (aka Avery) // August 4, 2011 at 1:30 pm // Reply

    Gayane:

    Thanks, but my fairytale was directed at someone that posts under an Armenian name.
    Read his  post in this thread carefully: there is a subtle message that has been proffered previously and to which I object to. If you are not familiar with his agenda, you need to take the time to read  his previous posts. He is not crude and obvious as most of the Turks posting here, but far more effective in spreading a defeatist and divisive message.

    Gor and Tigran are handling Anadolu: he/she is in good hands.

    (thanks again for the kind words)

     

  69. Of course, Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian, but they are not and have never been European or Greek or anything else. That is a fantasy imposed on them by the Americans and British to justify their incursion into Armenian territory and make Armenians feel ashamed at their own past and history. Armenians have been an indigenous people, probably since their arrival from the south (as per the legend of Hayk), perhaps 10,000 or more, years ago. 

    As for the myths that are part of today’s Turkish nationalist consciousness…let’s not forget that these lies have been pounded into the heads of Turkish children for several generations. It is not unlike the tradition in America that until relatively recently – the 1970s ? – always called the native American Indians ‘savages’…only because they fought to defend their homeland.  Those left in Turkey after 1923 were not even able or allowed to read anything of their past, because the Arabic script and Osmanli Turkish became not only foreign to them, but incomprehensible. History was not offered in translation, but reinvented thru the myths and racist fantasies of Ataturk and his cohorts.  As a result, several generations of modern Turks have no idea who really built their country…or that their cultural patrimony was developed, not by Turks, but by Armenians.  One small, but key example is Hampartzum Limondjian…who devised the musical notation for all classical Turkish music that is still in use today. Another is the Balyan family of architects, or Sinan…who designed and built some of the most beautiful mosques in the world. Armenians are an important part of Turkish history. No one should ever forget them or their contributions. And, if they need to be reminded…Armenians are more than willing to offer remedial education. 

     

  70. Avery jan.. I totally know what you are saying now.. I know exactly who the story was for.. I got it..:) and I agree with you.. but to my surprise, his last few comments were actually pro-Armenian.. :)

    I am confident Gor and Tigran will handle this matter very well..:)

    Gayane   

  71. “Of course, Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian, but they are not and have never been European[…]. Americans and British’[…] incursion into Armenian territory.”
     
    —-Six illiterate blunders in one sentence:
     
    (1)Of course.    Karekin-efendi the Historian has already determined—while international historians are still debating the origins of Armenians because origins of ancient peoples are hard to ascertain for sure—that of course Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian.
     
    (2)Armenians are Mesopotamians.   New magnum opus by Karekin-efendi the Historian never in any chronicle or scholarly publication existed before he popped off on these pages. The itinerary of the Noah’s Ark, i.e. where it was built and from where it came to the mountains of Ararat and landed are still hotly debated by true historians, but the newly-cooked ones already know that Haik, the grandson of one Noah’s sons, Japeth, came from the south.
     
    (3)Armenians are Anatolians.   What is Anatolia? Never has such a geographical toponym appeared in ancient chronicles until Turks started to name eastern parts of Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau as ‘Anatolia’ or in Turkish ‘Anadolu’ (also a pen name which a Turkish denialist uses in this thread). Armenians  have their own, unique geographical location called Armenian Plateau in eastern Asia Minor. There has never been ‘Anatolia’ involved in this in ancient history.
     
    (4)Armenians are Caucasian.   Only if related to race, but I don’t think Karekin-efendi the Historian meant race, but geographical affinity, rather. Armenians do not belong to Caucasian peoples because they have no access to the Caucasus mountain range, as Georgians and all those numerous mountainous peoples residing there. The greater part of the Armenian homeland is in eastern parts of Asia Minor, what are now eastern provinces of Turkey after they were savagely emptied of Armenians in 1915. Even during the Soviet times, the Russians called the region where the Armenian Soviet republic situated ‘Transcaucasia’, meaning: what lies beyond the Caucasus mountain range. This said, Georgians are much more Caucasian by nature than Armenians.
     
    (5)Armenians have never been European.   Only in as much as they have never been Mesopotamian or Anatolian or Caucasian. However, Armenians were the easternmost neighbors and sometimes parts of three great European empires: the Roman, the Byzantine Greek, and the Russian.
     
    (6)Americans and British’[…] incursion into Armenian territory.    I should like to see any evidence of the American and British’ incursion in to Armenia. Would be humbly grateful to Karekin-efendi the Historian for his enlightenment of this ‘Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian’ Armenian intellectual.

  72. Karekin,  Why don’t you read further into the history of the Armenians.  Part of the Armenians did migrate from Thrace as well as from what is north-eastern of today’s Greece as well as the indeginous people living in the Highlands of Armenia (the Haiasas and the Nairians), they were mixed with the Urartians who were located in the Van region within the Armenian Pltateau.

  73. Correction in my above post.  Other than Thrace, Armenians also came from of what is today’s north-western part of Greece before migrating to the Armenian Plateau, much before the Bronze Age.  As I said before and others too in here that we are at least 5,000 year old civilization if not more.

  74. Are you ready, Anadolu? Here I come.
     
    “Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier some later.”
    — Partly agree. There are also representatives of human race that originated in their unique environment.
     
    “Some have fought battles for it and defended it successfully and some conquered lands.”
    — Partly agree. Other conquered lands, scorched them, devastated structures and cultural edifices, and caused massive loss of human life.
     
    “Before Turks arrived, there was war as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian wars over Anatolia.”
    — Those wars didn’t bring destruction at a scale remotely reminiscent to what nomadic Turks brought to the region. Also, at those times there was no such a toponym as Anatolia. This is a Turkish creation to indicate a part of Asia Minor and, especially, replace the Armenian Highland (or Plateau) where Armenians have lived for millennia with this cooked-up term.
     
    “Byzantine Greek [levied] heavy taxation and […] badly treated non-Greek citizens.”
    — The major disagreement with the Greeks that Armenians had was bilateral misinterpretations of the nature of Jesus Christ. That is, murders, plots, and sometimes a few small-scale wars that were waged between the Byzantines and Armenians were in larger part related to a Christian doctrine that the Chalcedon Assembly adopted, but Armenians rejected. However, we know no such thing as humiliating treatment of non-Greeks in the Byzantine empire similar to the treatment of non-Turk millets in the Ottoman empire. In case you don’t know, be aware that several of Byzantine emperors were Armenians. Can you imagine such a thing in the Ottoman empire?
     
    “If after the Turks settled and with it they brought great devastation and mass death over centuries, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?”
    — The answer is very simple. Every metropolis tends to utilize to the best of its abilities the wealth, industrious talents, and cultural achievements of the peripheries. On this, I’d agree with you: Ottoman empire was no different from the Brits or the Spaniards. Churches and schools existed because, like I said, restricted practice of religion and teaching in national language were the only rights that were granted to Armenians. At the same time, Armenians were barred from all other basic civil rights: representation in legislatures, holding an office in the government, legal protection, equal taxes, equal representation in the courts, arms-carrying for self-protection from pillaging Muslim bands, etc. I never heard of Armenians working in the Ottoman government; for the government, yes, for example architects Balian who designed and constructed the Dolmabahçe Palace, but in the government – is a fantasy. Further, Armenians were rich tradesmen first and foremost because of their superior wit and industriousness as compared to Turks. Why were they allowed to function? For the same old imperialistic reason: to enrich the state, as unbearably higher taxes were imposed on Armenians than on Turks. All is very simple.
     
    “If Armenians are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accepted the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians.”
    —This is sheer rubbish. No hypothesis exists that’d suggest that Armenians came from Mesopotamia. I can understand why Armenians, Persians, or Greeks resemble each other, after all of these three nations are ones of the most ancient peoples inhabiting the Earth. But the fact that Turks appeared on the world map only in the 11-12th centuries suggests that it is you who look like Armenians, not the other way round. Do a simple chronology, please.
     
    “Colonization, the French massacred almost 1 million Algerians this is only to mention so it was not only mere oppression and grief. Spaniards who destroyed, killed, and totally annihilated South America, British who murdered peaceful American Indians.”
    — In the French case, it was a colonization war in which, sadly, the French army used force that led to killings of Algerians to repress popular demonstrations and armed rebellions against French domination. No such demonstrations or armed rebellions were registered on the part of unarmed, disorganized, and mostly rural Ottoman Armenians. In the Spanish Conquistadors’ case, the prevailing majority of South American natives became victims of contagious diseases that the Spaniards brought from Europe. Yes, there were killings, too, but a few Conquistadors couldn’t possibly kill hundreds of thousands of natives. Diseases and domestic civil wars were the primary reason. Likewise, in the case of American Indians: there were killings, but the bulk of victims had also died from diseases. Here, you conveniently forget one major difference in all these cases that Turks so love to bring in to justify their genocide of Armenians. Neither Algerians, nor Incas and Mayas, nor American Indians were citizens of the same country as their oppressors. The French were colonizing outsiders. The Spaniards were colonizing outsiders. The British were colonizing outsiders. In the case of Ottoman Armenians, 2-2.2 million people were savagely slaughtered by their own government. Do you appreciate this major difference?
     
    “Where are Indian Americans now, in reservation camps? What is left of Native American, nothing is left.”
    — With all due respect for the American Indians, they did not create structures, or educational, medical, and charitable facilities, or religious institutions, or cultural monuments, or developed pastures, or trade facilities, or business offices. Therefore, almost nothing, except for their villages that are now preserved in reservations, could have been left on Indian lands after the arrival of the British and French. Armenians, in contrast, had a whole ancient civilization developed on their lands. What’s left of it now?

    “Your comparison shows just how deep frustrated you’ve become with all extreme stories about so-called brutal Turks and innocent Armenians. Radical Armenians killed and massacred so many innocent Turkish and Kurdish citizens, and at this fact you won’t even look, but for you Turks and Kurds are uncivilized and barbarians.”
    — Have Armenians exterminated Turks as a nation? If yes, why are you 70 million now? How many Armenians are left in Turkey? 60,000? What happened to 2-2.2 million? If this is not an extreme reality, then what is it? For Armenians, these are not “stories”, these are survivor and witness accounts that were passed to us by our grandparents about the brutality and barbarism of the Ottoman Turks. One can go insane when he reads what indescribable tortures and mutilations your forefathers inflicted on women, girls, children, elders, and even the unborn. If this is not brutality and barbarism, then what is it? I can imagine there were inter-ethnic, inter-communal clashes between different ethnic groups in which Turks were killed, too. But you again conveniently miss the major point: Armenians were not the governing regime of the Ottoman empire and therefore wish not and could not commit the crime on the genocidal scale, as Turks did. No inter-ethnic clashes or grievances in a multi-ethnic empire can justify savage extermination of a whole people by the government. This is what Turks stubbornly fail to hear, because it’s not soothing their ears.
     
    “If you show such hatred, do not wonder why people take measures in order to protect themselves from hatred.”
    — I don’t hate you personally, or any ordinary modern Turk, for that matter. But I hate your unrepentant murderer-state and your denialist government. What would you expect me, a descendant of a genocide survivor, to do for the memory of millions of butchered people? Unconditionally love Turkey?!

  75. Seervart..the theory of ‘Thracian’ origins has been disproved. You need to study the newest history and particularly, the development of languages, especially proto-IndoEuropean. It shows that this entire tree of languages originated in the Armenian highlands, aka, the Armenian plateau, at least 7500 years ago, but possibly as much as 9000 years. If anything points to an indigenous, Armenian origin, this is it. Armenia is not called the cradle of civilization for nothing – it truly was! 

  76. Gor jan.. BRAVO.. absolutely excellent post.. wow… that post just shot all the room to wiggle but then knowing denialists like Anadolu, I am sure they will have something stupid to say EVEN after all that data provided…..thank you.. i truly learned alot..

    Gayane

  77. Seervart, there are several hypotheses on the origin of Armenians; Thracia as a point of migration of a part of proto-Armenians being one of them. Also, north-western part of Greece is where roughly Thracia was situated. Therefore, Thracia and north-western part of modern Greece are not two different locations from where a proto-Armenian tribe might have traveled to the Armenian Plateau. There are other theories, too, however I never heard of Mesopotamia as a migration point of Armenians. In general, a hypothesis cannot be disproved or approved because it is a hypothesis, but what’s becoming increasingly certain is that more international historians and anthropologists tend to agree that the Armenian Plateau might have been the indigenous birthplace of the Armenian nation, where Indo-European Armen and Haik tribes amalgamated with Urartian tribes of Hayasa, Nairi, etc. thus resulting in the modern Armenian nation. This hypothesis is the strongest because it reconfirms that Armenians are not a migrant, but an indigenous nation, a strong argument against Turkish allegations that, just like Turks, Armenians, too, have migrated from somewhere, even if several thousand years earlier than newly-popped up Turks.

  78. Hi Gor, Thank you for the explanation.  I as well have never heard that Armenians came from Mesopotamia. It was the Mitranis.  Of course we are the indigenous nation of the Armenian Plateau and have amalgamated with the Urartu tribes.  The Turks say many things; but history knows it that they came a 1000 years ago from the Mongolian stepes into Armenia and the Hellene territories.

  79.  Anadolu, During the CUP there was one brilliant Armenian statetsman in the Turkish parliament, and his name was Krikor Zohrab.  He was a great orator and respected by everyone in the parliament as he was an eloquent speaker and thought the Turkish people great many things as deputy in the Turkish parliament; but even that didn’t make him immune to be deported with the 300 Armenian intellectuals from Istanbul.  He was taken to Diyarbekir and killed on June 3, 1915.

  80. Gor…you might want to factor in Armenian legend, which says that Hayk came from the south, after he was expelled by Bel (perhaps, Baal?). This has yet to be disproven, but if true, I suspect this legend is one of creation and stretches back into the realm of human prehistory. It has now been shown, with the oldest shoe and oldest wine vats, that even at 5-6 thousand years ago, Armenians were cultivating grapes and tanning leather, which are two very sophisticated technologies. We also know that the petroglyphs at Metsamor have been dated to at least 10,000 years ago, but perhaps sa much as 40,000.

    And yes, while several Byzantine emperors were of Armenian origin, so were many Ottoman sultans, who always had non-Turkish mothers…often Armenian, or Greek, or Circassian. This is a known fact. So, quite a bit of Armenian blood ran thru the veins of those living in the Topkapi and Dolmabache palaces   And, just to put icing on the cake, the head eunuch who protected the harem…the aghassi…was always a super protective and loyal Armenian.  

  81. Having non-Turk mothers, as in the case of some Ottoman Sultans, pales in comparison with being 100% Armenian, as in the case of some Byzantine Emperors (e.g. Leo V, known as ‘The Armenian’). I only know that Bloody Assassin Abdulhamid II might have had an Armenian mother. Who are other Ottoman Sultans so that we might say that ‘quite a bit of Armenian blood’ ran thru the veins of those living in the Topkapi and Dolmabache palaces? Likewise, eunuchs protecting Turkish harems (big deal!) pale in comparison with army commanders, generals, and court merchants that Armenians produced in Byzantine Greece.

  82. It is interesting that individuals that try to convince other Armenians of the supposed benefits of the Ottoman Turk rule over Armenians, consider it a high achievement for Armenians that head eunuchs  were super protective, were loyal, and drum roll please – were always Armenian. Apparently in the twisted Turkophile universe this is considered some kind of high achievement for an Armenian. What is next, that the most famous harem madam was also Armenian ?
     
     
    It would also be interesting to juxtapose the list of famous, such as they are, Armenians under Turk Ottoman rule with  that of Armenians of high achievement under Russian Tsarist rule, and thence under Soviet/Russian rule: World famous Admirals, Marshalls, Generals, Scientists, Inventors, Painters, Artists, …….
     
     
    The same individuals who glorify the alleged benefits of Ottoman rule over Armenians, never tire in their campaign to convince us of the alleged damage Russians have caused to the Armenian nation and Armenians.

  83. Indeed, Avery.  A Turkophile non-Turk is oftentimes more harmful than a genuine Turk.
     
    P.S.  Just realized that I paraphrased Lenin, who once said: “Russified aliens are always much more Russian than the Russians themselves.”

  84. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 5, 2011 at 6:54 pm // Reply

    Seervart Jan, several years ago I happened to meet the Turkish Consulate in his office, Los Angeles California for taking care of their computer systems. I opened the issue of Armenians. His response was  ” everything is because of money,” I repeated myself just make sure he understood me. His response still was the same. You are right. But the problem with Turkish Genocide against Armenian is that they cannot redress Armenians by just paying money. That is why only way Armenians can agree to settle with Turks would be to returne our Wetern Armenia.

  85. Papken jan, The Ittihadist CUPs right after 1908 when they took over the government, the next year they attacked Adana.  Why did they attack and had the Armenian people of Adana annihilated?  Because Adana was the most richest community within the Turkish Republic.  That’s why the Ittihadists right away attacked Adana, for their riches and for their money.  The reason of the Armenian Genocide with the bloodsucking bloodthirsty hands of the Ittihadists was for money.

  86. Papken, Yes of course I more than agree with you.  The Turks must pay the blood money of our 2 million martyrs that they atrociously and mercilessly annihilated with the return of our anscestral homeland.  Reparations must be paid in full by the Turkish government with our Western Armenian Highlands.  We want reparations in the form of our Kars, Ardahan, Ararad Mountain, Erzerum, Erzinga, Van, Sassun, Moush, Bingoel, Palu, Kharpert and Dikranagerd.

  87. avatar ragnar naess // August 8, 2011 at 11:31 am // Reply

    Anadolu
    I feel that your initial condescending remarks on the lost Armenian churches and schools are out of place. You wrote: why was it then called “ottoman empire” and not “armenian increased numbers of churches and schools empire?” Don’t you know that the Armenians lost all these churches and schools in spite of the solemn promise in the decision of  deportation of may 27, 1915, that Armenian property would be respected?
    Regarding the arrests of april 24, 1915: As far as I know  it is claimed that the arrests on april 24, 1915, concerned  political leaders that the ittihadists wanted ut of the way as a potential illoyal group. If this was so their action is in line with much of the military thinking at the time and later (the US interned all Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbour) But here the analogy stops. What happened to these arrested Armenians later?  Kemal Cicek, the Turkish association of historians, claims that the arrested were  only were terrorists. In the paper of his that I have access to however he only names one, Komitas, thecomposer,  and Cicek claims he was a terrorist. Komitas was released, by the way. Obviously, the text of Cicek is very unsatisfactory and betrays the problems Turks have with encountering their past. On the other hand, it seems that all the arrested were not killed. Grigoris Balakian in the “Armenian Golgotha” provides the names of 131 Armenians who were arrested on april 24, based on the information he collected. Out of these 48 survived and 12 more returned to Istanbul, from where some of them were able to flee to country, and some simply stayed as part of the Istanbul Armenians who never were deported and survived the whole war. – But this is only a small part of the total picture. Armenian deportees were not fed, were massacred in thousands and tens of thousands, and died in the numbers of hundreds of thousands, if not more. Moreover, in spite of lots of constant reports sent to the authorities about massacres, those who massacred were hardly ever brought to justice. I can only find a handful examples of Muslims punished for atrocities against Armenians. What does this tell about the attitude and possible intentions of the government? This is is not a rhetorical question on my part. How do you interpret this, Anadolu?
        

  88. avatar Darwin Jamgochian // August 8, 2011 at 5:13 pm // Reply

    I don’t know of any moslem dominated country on this planet that treats christians as equals. Could someone enlighten me?

  89. The aftermath of 1915, into the post-1923 era, actually might tell us even more about the true intentions of the CUP…it was murder and theft, on a grand, unimaginable scale…and, it continued to put fear into the Armenians of Turkey for meny, many years.  The state appropirated all abandonned Armenian properties, handed them over to CUP and Ataturk loyalists and worked very hard to hide its actions, not only from its own population, but from international observers, as well. In their minds, this must be the perfect crime….and, there are lots of accomplices…including the US, the UK and others.

  90. You are correct in stating that Darwin jan.. i have not encountered any Muslim countries treating Christians as equals either.. on the contrary, they look down and simply void anyone who is not Muslim.. So i would love to be enlightened as well..

    Ragnar-if i did not know you personall and up close, i would say you may be leaning on our side.. even though your post to Anadolu was informative to him; i still don’t feel you are on the side of the truth…thank you nonetheless.. however a correction.. there were 2 million if not more innocent Armenians who were deported, murdered, raped and killed vs thousands upon thousands…  

  91. avatar Darwin Jamgochian // August 8, 2011 at 10:09 pm // Reply

    Gayane; That is why we must build those churches in Karabakh. In Turkey, just about the only vestige of our homeland that wasn’t covered up were our churches. Every Armenian on this planet sould understand that should Karabakh fall to Azerbaijan, another genocide will follow. I’ve lost count as to how many genocides we’ve suffered but I would say we’re well into double figures. The original home of the Armenians was in Nakichevan and thanks to ther Azerbaijanis all we have to show for it are a pile of broken cemetery stones.  

  92. avatar ragnar naess // August 9, 2011 at 3:21 am // Reply

    Gayane, let us not repeat our old discussions. For me it was natural to adress Anadolu since I feel he was onesided and because am seeking discussions with Turks or people upholding “the Turkish point of view”, not only with Armenians. But let me repeat one question which I have asked before. Why is so imperative to classify me as ONE OF US, rather than ONE OF THEM? Why not simply listen to arguments and make  up your mind? Second question: how will you find out anything about where I belong except by judging my opinions? third: havent you in your personal life come across people who partly agree, partly diagree with you? You revert again and again to the question of WHAT SIDE IS RAGNAR ON. Can this be an indication that you are not fully aware of the complexities of social life? Or do you think that the particular characteristics of the Armenian cause makes this question so pressing? Yes, maybe it is the last point. The feeling of betrayal and new betrayals are common to many Armenians, I believe. I am sorry for this.

  93. No one is glorifying anything, but your and my ancestors played a huge rold in the functioning of the Ottoman Empire, whether you like it or not, from the very top to the very bottom of the social ladder. you may not find it appealing, but it’s the truth. I say this to underscore Armenian ownership in the Ottoman Empire, not to denigrate it.  This is what you are trying to recapture, isn’t it?  If it belonged to us then, it makes no sense to trash it. When you compare how people were living in other societies around the world at that time in history, Armenians were actually doing quite well. Most people on earth lived as slaves or serfs, and did not even own land. THe Armenian case is totally different, and in fact, was better than the vast numbers of Slavs, Chinese, Africans and native Americans who were, in fact, slaves…living and dying in chains…for hundreds of years. Even with all its faults, of which there were many, the Ottoman Empire was better for Armenians than any of those other societies for their subjects and conquered peoples. As a result, Armenians were able to make significant and historic contributions that not only improved overall society, but their own place in it. Of course, by today’s standards of freedom it seems backward and oppressive, but when compared with the life of a serf in Russia or China…it was vastly different.  

  94. this one for the Turkophile agents who, while constantly digging up dirt on Armenia on these pages, conveniently ignore the filth that’s bubbling just below the surface in Turkey.

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-athlete-claims-she-was-hit-for-wearing-shorts-on-public-bus-2011-08-09

    this is how the allegedly tolerant Turks treat even one of their own co-religionists. 
    and this is in Constantinople (aka Istanbul) an arguably Europeanized city.
    as I have said before: the Kemalist experiment has  ended in failure.

    Turks are reverting to their core Islamic roots. Interesting times a’coming.

     

  95. Ragnar.. i really did not want on this path again but i have no choice but to repeat myself.. You know alot how i see you as a whole …and of course I am going to brng the past because the present has not changed since the past… so until there is change everything else remains the same my Norwegian friend…in addition, we had a long discussions on previous topics in the past…

    Here is the problem: anyone can have their own ways of thinking and i don’t have to agree with everyone and vice versa.. the only difference about your argument in regards to ” I don’t have to agree with you on everything” is this::::…… YOU CAN”T BE IN THE MIDDLE when it on ARmenian Genocide.. You CANT play both sides Ragnar which is what you are doing SIR…so stop this diplomatic BS … We are not dealing wth two major sports teams where you can change sides and cheer for one then change your mind and cheer for the other whenever you feel like….you can NOT be WISHY WASHY on this issue Ragnar…   We are dealing with murderes and murdered….. you can’t be friends with the murderer state and then turn around and pretend to be friends with the nation that almost got wiped out.. THAT AIN”T GOING TO FLY .. and that is what you are trying to do and it frustrates me out of my wits… it is not about trying to have a conversation with TUrks and trying to understand both sides.. THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED ALREADY.. and you working in TUrkey and writing your research paper gave you plenty of information about Turks and TUrkey I am sure… so i don’t get your diplomatic approach to Why not simply listen to arguments and make  up your mind  … WE already know what happened.. it is YOU who needs to make up your mind and stick to it.. and so far I have not seen it.. unless that happened and we don’t know about it…

    Can this be an indication that you are not fully aware of the complexities of social life– I not even even in my later 30s Ragnar so no i may not know all the complesities of social life… however, what i DO KNOW is this:.. a man at your age would appreciate the difference between siding with justice vs Turkish denialists who dine and wine you and of course throw the green paper at you.. the mighty dollar….sorry if this hurts but that is what I believe…

    Have a nice day sir..

    Gayane  

  96. Avery….do you mean to say you’d prefer hard boiled Kemalism, with its deep CUP and military undertones to something else?  Be careful what you wish for…because the republican period was anything but wonderful for Armenians, or any other minority in Turkey.   

  97. Avery jan… thanks for the link… I read the story…can’t say I am surprised…

    Interesting time a’coming indeed…

    Gayane  

  98. here is one more (via Asbarez.com): Turks becoming more and more tolerant every day.

    http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2011/08/05/feature-03

    take the time to read the survey in detail and contemplate the percentages: it’s very illuminating.
    this is what would have happened to Artsakhtsi had they lost, and will happen to Artsakhtsi if Azeris ever gain the upper hand. This is why Nakhichevan went from majority Armenian  to 0% Armenian.
     

  99. avatar ragnar naess // August 10, 2011 at 1:37 am // Reply

    Gayane, I did not want to go this path again since I never even got you to refer my points of view correctly. But I will repeat once more. Of course the case of the murders and the murdered are central. In addition the case of authorities who, as far as I can ascertain, almost never prosecuted those who committed massacres against your ancestors. This is terrible and unpardonable. And I have really used lot of time to tell Turks that they must relate honestly to their own past. But I stopped answering your posts because in a way you are not doing dialogue, you are doing a monologue. Certainly you cannot negotiate truth with money or negotiate morality with money. By the way my whole professional life I have worked for state money and always I have been criticizing my government regarding my field: immigration and refugees. Maybe you experience me as wishy washy beause you never cared to listen to what I actually say? Isnt that making it easy for yourself. But, my friend Gayane, maybe I am mistaken, both in my views,(in some aspects, I cannot imagine that I will ever change my opinion completely in your direction, as I know you) and maybe I am mistaken in my belief that you are unable to refer my views correctly. We should admit the possibility of mistake, shouldnt we? Only the future can show if we are willing to go on exchanging words.  

  100. Avery….so once again, do you prefer to see the Kemalists or the Erdoganists running Turkey? I’m curious. Neither is optimal, of course, but I think most people would opt for the lesser of two evils.

  101. Karekin, you again? Then lend me you ears.
     
    Re: “[…]your and my ancestors played a huge role in the functioning of the Ottoman Empire.”
    —-As if the Ottoman empire was an Eldorado land that all the native peoples who inhabited the Balkans, Asia Minor, Middle East, and the Arabian Peninsula were longing for millennia for the lousy Seljuk nomads and filthy Ottoman Turks to come invade and colonize them. Underscoring Armenian “ownership” in the Ottoman Empire, if it is your intention, creates a delusion that there was no millennia-old Armenian history or Armenian statehood before Armenia’s colonization by the Ottomans. It also creates a delusion that Armenians actually “owned” something in the Ottoman empire. Aside from small- and medium-size businesses whose revenues were unbearably taxed more than those of the Turks and apart of religious and educational facilities that functioned under restrictions, Armenians owned practically nothing in the Ottoman empire: no representation in the legislature, no representation in the government, no legal protection, no judiciary protection, no physical protection against the murderer government, no security against the maraudering Muslim bands in the rural areas, etc.
     
    Re: “When you compare how people were living in other societies at that time in history, Armenians were actually doing quite well. Most people on earth lived as slaves or serfs, and did not even own land. The Armenian case was better than the vast numbers of Slavs, Chinese, Africans and Native Americans who were, in fact, slaves.”
    —-If we imagine for a split second that “Armenians were doing quite well” despite the lack of physical protection and basic civil rights, it was the result of their wit, industriousness, and circumspection, not the genial treatment by Muslim Turks. All of the colonized peoples in the Ottoman empire—Slavs, Arabs, Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians—were, in fact, slaves and serfs. You cannot be anything other than slave or serf when you are colonized. As simple as that. The situation of Armenians was even worse, because not only were they annihilated as a race, but their historic lands were stolen as well. Although I mourn hundreds of thousands of Christians that were savagely slaughtered by the Turks, at least the bulk of the population was able to survive and major parts of their historic homelands remained intact. Since you so like to parrot (or advance?) the Turkish denialist clichés about the wonderful life of Armenians in the Ottoman empire and make comparisons with Native Americans, then compare the terrible fate Armenians have suffered with that of other nations. It is obvious to everyone, except for you as a Turkish lickspittle, that at least in almost all other cases, the bulk of the population survived and the bulk of their historic homelands remained intact.
     
    Re: “Even with all its faults, the Ottoman Empire was better for Armenians than any of those other societies for their subjects. As a result, Armenians were able to make significant and historic contributions that not only improved overall society, but their own place in it.”
    —-Dead wrong. Even an uneducated look at how imperial Russian and Soviet empires treated Armenians, what basic civil rights were endowed to them, and what major contributions Armenians were able to make in those years, proves that you’re either a complete dilettante or a blind-folded Turkophile.
     
    Re: “Of course, by today’s standards of freedom it seems backward and oppressive”
    —-Thank you for admitting the obvious.
     
    Re: “but when compared with the life of a serf in Russia or China…it was vastly different.”
    —-Of course, it was different. Russian and Chinese serfs, while enduring sufferings and physical abuses, largely preserved their physical existence and on their own homelands.

  102. Ragnar, rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?

  103. I’ll answer your question indirectly, Karekin.
     
     
    The reason I post the links that show the underside of Turkey is to prove that you have malice in your heart towards Armenia.
    In all of your posts I have yet to see one negative regardingTurkey. Even one or two mild rebukes are swamped by an avalanche of praise.
    At the same time, you never lose an opportunity to publicize bad news aboutArmenia, juxtaposed with never ending praise forTurkey.
    I have yet to see a positive sentiment from you towards Armenia. You even manage to put a negative spin on undeniably positive developments.
    That tells me all I need to know. Your posting  behaviour is your calling card. Occasional posts that do not deny the AG show that you are smarter than the other Agents. Read my fictional 30-point MIT guideline in this thread: I know most of the tricks of the trade of  enemy  Agents.
    I graduated with honors from the Armenian KGB’s (at the time) Directorate of Psychological Warfare, Psyops & Counter-Psyops, Disinformation & Counter-Disinformation School of Advanced Studies.
     
     
    Another reason I post negative news about Turkey is to counter you incessant attempts to divide and demoralize our side.
    I want our people to see the rot that exists in Turkey  just below the artificial sheen created by Turks, their friends, and their Agents.
    Many people read  sensationalist headlines  about Armenia and reach fantastic and false conclusions.
    The Forbes disinformation peace is a classic: I demonstrated in this thread, with hard Per-Capita-GDP numbers, obtained from CIA public site,  that their conclusion was bogus and rank disinformation. Why did they publish it ? A psyops campaign against Armenia. I have lived in the US long enough to know that most of mainstream media here serves the interests of the American version of the deep state. Demoralize and divide the world, so that Big Money boys can loot it’s wealth with no resistance and no accounting.
     
    Պղտոր ջրերում ձուկ որսալ:
     
    I know that on a piece of paper 1+1=2. However, human history is full of small groups of men and women overcoming impossible odds with belief in themselves and unshakable determination.
    When a man’s spirit is broken, the rest of body goes with it.
    When a man’s spirit soars, the body follows.
     
    Anyone that doubts this,  I invite to find and carefully study pictures of Astrasktsi warriors in 1988, 1989, 1990,… the years before the tide turned in their/our favour around 1993-1994. Study their faces: there is no hint of fear, or panic, or dejection, or demoralization. There is only calm, almost serene, determination. It is almost eerie. How can these guys be this fearless ? What kind of superhuman genes were planted in these ordinary looking men ? To appreciate what you are looking at, understand this: what is not shown in the pictures are masses of Azeri troops and tanks a couple of clicks away. Yet these guys are standing around and planning as if it’s a bunch of kids with toy guns that are over the hill. As if they are discussing a turkey  shoot (bird hunting). That’s the kind of self confidence and belief in ourselves that we need to propagate to all our people.
     
     
    Back to what I want forTurkey:
     
    I want Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces, so it no longer presents a clear and present danger to my homeland and my people, my brothers and sisters that are trying to live there in peace.
    So that  Turkey is no longer an existential threat to Armenia & Artsakh.
    I would very much like for the Turks to go back to their own homeland at the base of the Altai Mountains.
    They don’t belong in the Armenian Highlands. They don’t belong where they are sitting now.
    Their arrival has been an unmitigated disaster for the region at large and Humanity.
    They have done nothing but bring death, destruction and misery to the indigenous people.
    Even today, they go around threatening, threatening to invade, or invading their neighbors. It never stops.
     
     
    Ex: after having invaded the Greek Island of Cyprus 500 years ago and populating it with Turks, after invading it again in 1974, they are now threatening Cyprus again for daring to explore for oil and gas in their own (Cyprus) territorial waters.
     
     
    I realize of course  that 50 million or so ethnic Turks living in Turkey today cannot just vanish into thin air.
    However, a Turkey broken up into 3-4 pieces can be contained and can no longer present a threat to its neighbors, and most importantly to Armenia.
     
     
    So I don’t really care if it ends up being Islamist, Kemalist, Fascist, Communist, whatever.
    As long as it breaks up into manageable pieces. I wish no death or misery to the ordinary Turks and other ethnicities, and wish the breakup takes place with no harm to non-combatants.
     
     
    And contrary to your propaganda, the signs are there that the fissures inherent in that artificially created country are opening up wider.
    The signs are similar to the former Soviet Union. A few years before it disintegrated, the external image of it was a solid monolith, impervious to any force.
    It was an artificial country held together with duct tape: there was no inherent national cohesion, similar to say Germany or France, and of course Armenia.
    Different nationalities were being forced to live together at gunpoint. Same as in the Ottoman Empire. Same as in today’sTurkey.
     
     
    The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza can no longer be contained. The more rights they get the more they’ll demand. Independence is only a matter of time. In this day and age suppression will not work either. And of course they are too numerous to be wiped out like Armenians were.
    Once Kurds and Zaza break free, the breakup of Turkey will pick up pace.
    Turkey has many, many enemies. When they go down like the Ottoman Empire, the long knives will come out to carve it up.
    And there are no Germans and Bolsheviks to save the Turks this time from ending up with a rump state.

  104. Bravo, Avery.  You are a true patriot.

  105. It’s just a matter of time when Turkey will be carved up between Kurdistan, Greece, and Wilsonian Armenia. I have no doubt in my mind that this scenario is already at play. Turks benefitted inexcusably long from invading, looting, and mass murdering more civilized, cultured, and nobler peoples inhabiting Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Armenian Plateau. Time to pick up the tab.

  106. Boyajian:       I think we’ve known Ragnar long enough to foretell what he’d have to say even without having to gaze into a crystal ball. I’d venture into predicting his answer or a variation thereof. It was a colossal crime on the part of the Turks (note: no denomination of the crime). The result of forced deportations and mass murders was genocidal, but the genocidal intent of the central Ottoman Turkish authorities is hard to prove. Armenians need to engage in a dialogue with the Turks so Turks can admit the guilt (for what, if the crime is not denominated?) and apologize. Now let me extrapolate this possible response or a variation thereof on the recent killings on the Utoya Island. It was a colossal crime (omitting the name, which is, clearly a heinous terrorist act). The result was homicidal but the intent of Anders Behring Brevik is hard to prove. Instead of taking him to custody, the police and the Norwegian society needed to conduct dialogue with him so he could come forward and apologize for the crime (again, with no specific name). Such a standpoint is just another variation of postponing justice for Armenians, Can we ever imagine that as a result of a dialogue with largely brainwashed Turks on the ratio 10:70 (in millions, representing roughly the population of Armenians and Turks), and knowing too well that no criminal—on the state or individual level—will ever accept the guilt voluntarily, Turks can ever admit the guilt which will expose their nation as the nation of barbarians: mass murderers, torturers, mutilators, children-killers, rapists, looters, and thieves?! This is just another variation at delaying justice for us.

  107. mjm, it’s always good to read your comments.  You’re right of course, based on Ragnar’s previous writing, that he is likely to spare Turkey it’s full responsibility.  But let’s see if he offers anything new.

  108. MJM- We truly missed you…Always a pleasure reading your comments…Well said…:)

    Boyajian jan- Truly missed you too…Can’t get enough of your comments…Well said..:)

    Avery jan- Excellent post… xosq chunem aselu.. got goosebumps.. and I am with you 110%.. 

    It is like the good ol’ days when all three of us where in one of the longest discussion in the AW history involving Ragnar N… to be honest with you, he has not changed and I knew exactly what he would come back with.. he is singing his old song… no surprise there…     

    Ragnar-  actually it is more like YOU are having a monologue with us than me with you.. I don’t see any diologue between you and us.. do you???    oh and we know very well what you won’t agree with me on… according to you there was no Genocide… and I say there WAS a Genocide.. well until you make up your mind whether or not it was a Genocide you will remain the same culprit and denialist… sorry if that hurts…

    Gayane

  109. avatar ragnar naess // August 11, 2011 at 5:01 am // Reply

    Boyajian, yes, its a pleasure that you are with us. I was afraid that you would disappear after I told that I am working on a book. But Anahit I have not seen except that there was a “Anahit” in Daily Zaman some time ago. The new thing of course is that I write on a book and I want to say something about my dialogue with Turks and Armenians. Ideally I would like to cite “mjm”, “boyajian”, “gayane” and certainly “Karekin”, but as I said I would ask for your special permission to do so, even if you all have assumed names (maybe you some day will have the self confidence to use your real names….).
    Yes, Gayane maybe I engage in a monologue, too! I have certain ideas that I see no reason to change, I have found no good arguments. But I have other ideas that are changing or being more nuanced. But then of course you have some definite formulas that you want me to adhere to. I am not sure that I will ever comply with your wish. But surely you have met sometimes with people with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?
    Mjm, good to hear from you. Yes, you refer my opinions  reasonably  correctly. No,I am not  certain about what crime, even if we restrict ourself to Talaat’s “confession”. You know his posthumous autobiography in which he confesses that he for political reasons – not to antagonize Turks and Kurds who hated Armenians – abstained from prosecuting people who massacred Armenian deportees. If this is a true picture of his intentions, which it maybe is not. To my mind he here confesses to a crime. Regarding WHAT CRIME, this is a decision for which I have no competence. I am now reading both the Rwandan judgements and some judgements in the Srebrenitsa case, and this is complex. But I feel you want me to say: “Yes, it was genocide” without any qualifications. This is more like saying “I believe in God, but I know very little about him. It is a BELIEF…”. The alternatives are crime against humanity, genocide, war crime, and all divided into “crime”, “abetting crime”, “not hindering crime”, and so on.
    I participated here because I did not like Anadolu’s way of reasoning, so I answered. But if we can find something sensible to discuss, I am always interested.

  110. That’s it, Boyajian.        I mean Ragnar’s response. If through lengthy dialogues with us the guy still sticks to his guns, himself being a Nordmenn not a Turk, what could we expect from his proposed ‘dialogue’ with 70 mln brainwashed Turks representing a murderer unrepentant state about some ‘crime’ and some ‘intent’ or the lack of thereof or some apology for the Turkish crime against humanity (Allies’ term in 1915) and genocide (Lemkin’s and subsequently international term after 1943) that even a Nordmenn shies to admit?

  111. Ehhhh… Ragnar.. same ol’ Ragnar.. nothing has changed and you wonder why we can’t have a dialogue with you?

    You said:   maybe you some day will have the self confidence to use your real names….).
     For your own information.. how do you know if the posters here don’t use their real names, or their initials or abbreviations of their names.. why are you looking to rip some benefits from us for your book? I would not want to be part of your book… knowing you are trying tint and come up with your scientific reasons when you have no connection whats so ever with such subject..this matter is more emotional and common sense than scientific.. but you already know that….

    I have certain ideas that I see no reason to change, I have found no good argumentsThis one sentence tells me great deal.. that YOU definintely were and are engaged in monologue because my friend Avery and Boyajian gave you PLENTY of GOOD ARGUMENTS SIR .. PLENTY.. no denial there but yet you still play your old flute….

    But then of course you have some definite formulas that you want me to adhere to. I am not sure that I will ever comply with your wish. But surely you have met sometimes with people with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?  Yes of course I have a formula just like everyone here on these discussions… and the formula is, you ready? i am sure you NEVER heard of this or read about it.. but i am going to tell you again and again and again and again and again……

    Ottoman Empire= Genocide against my people, Armenians…. 1909-1924= Attempted and half way succeeded of the Annihiliation and Murder of my nation, the Armenian Nation   1915=OTTOMAN TURKISH GENOCIDE OF THE WESTERN AND EASTERN ARMENIANS…   THis is the formula that WILL NEVER CHANGE and as I said numerous times in my past posts.. YOU CAN”T BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD RagnarR.. YOu have to either AGREE OR DISAGREE.. so stop injecting this BS ” But surely you have met sometimes with peoplewith whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?  … This statement of yours does not imply to what we are discussing… There is no ” THERE WAS KIND OF GENOCIDE“…. and that is exactly what you are saying..  

    Gayane
     

  112. True to form.
     
    Ragnar you do not have permission to quote my comments. Not because you and I disagree, but because I view you as someone who has a preconceived agenda he is intent on supporting against any evidence to the contrary.  You long ago informed us that you were writing a book.  Your recent reassertion of this did not scare me away.   If I perceived you to be a fair and honest truth-seeker, I would gladly continue discourse, but since this is not the case, I simply feel we have gone as far as we two can go.
     
    You long ago informed us that you were writing a book.  Your recent assertion of this did not scare me away.  I do not hide behind aliases, I simply choose my confidants and associations judiciously.

  113. Likewise, Ragnar.    You do not have permission to quote my comments.

  114. avatar ragnar naess // August 11, 2011 at 12:57 pm // Reply

    No, I will not cite. About your comments, I get curious. But we have been through it so many times. Do you take the fact that I havent changed my mind as a sign that I am not an honest truth seeker, Boyajian? Is that fair? 

  115. My name, to my relief, was not mentioned in the list of potential referral sources that Ragnar Naess intends to use in his upcoming book, but just to be on the safe side…  Ragnar, I join others in not granting permission to use any of my viewpoints in AW in case you intended to do so.
     
    P.S.   BTW, Gor is my real, not pen, name.

  116. Ragnar.. Here is some information from an article on AW written by Kurdish writer on why the Genocide happened… link is also provided for your information..and you tell me there is no scientific reasons for the Genocide to happen.. laughablet to say the least..

    http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/08/11/gunaysu-denial/
    Just to give a few statistics to remind the readers what the extermination of Christian trade and business people meant for the national economy of the Ottoman Empire, I will once more quote from Confiscation and Destruction: “Commerce in the interior was heavily Armenian in the east (and Greek in the west), even though Turks were also involved in domestic trade. For example, in 1884, of the 110 merchants in the north-eastern provincial capital Trabzon, for domestic and international trade a vital port city, 40 were Armenian and 42, Pontic Greek. According to a 1913 study on Anatolia by the Armenian parliamentarian and writer Krikor Zohrab, of the 166 importers, 141 were Armenians and 13, Turks. Of the 9,800 shopowners and craftsmen, 6,800 were Armenians and 2,550, Turks; of the 150 exporters, 127 were Armenians and 23 Turks; of the 153 industrialists, 130 were Armenians and 20 were Turks; and finally, of the 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians. In the six eastern provinces, 32 Armenian moneylenders plied their trade versus only 5 Turkish ones. On the eve of the genocide, in early 1915, of the 264 Ottoman industrial establishments, only 42 belonged to Muslims and 172 to non-Muslims.” 5
    These figures alone indicate the extent of economic destruction willfully carried out by the Ottoman government, which put the country’s development back a century—a fact overlooked by the heated antagonists of imperialism in Turkey who are, of course, against nationalism but are unable to look and see beyond the horizon of Turkish nationalism.

  117. Avery jan, Your post above to Karekin it’s not just a good post but an EXCELLENT ONE!!!!  You spoke exactly my heart and soul.  Throughout my life I have been saying the same things you said it above that we have to give heart, inspiration to our people for survival, for fighting for our country and for our lands that has been homelands for Armenians from time immemorial.  Do you know why those freedom fighters in Artsakh had a serene and content look on them?  Because they were fighting for a great cause; because they fought with their hearts and souls for their sweet lands that belonged to them as a legacy left from their forefathers.  They had that unafraid look upon themselves, because of national pride, because of a great cause (the cause of survival as a nation, for their wives pride, and for their children, the future generation of Armenians).  And because they knew their history very well and because they fought for what the enemy the Turks and the Azeris did to them, to their wives, their sisters and their children.  Unlike the Turks and the Azeris that gobbled other peoples’ lands *our lands* that didn’t belong to them, those lands were not theirs to begin with and they have no real cause to fight except for greed, for stealing, for looting and for annihilating for the sake of annihilation.  For us however, our lands is like “Neshxar”, the same way our Ararad Mountain is, «Մեր հողերէը Նշխարի նման սուրբ են մեզ համար, Մեր սուրբ Արարատ լեռան պէս».  Those freedom fighters fought to die happily; but for a great cause, that is the cause of both survival and for the right of their anscestral homeland, for the future of their children and the generations that will come after them, after us.  When you have a good cause and a reason to die, then you fight with all your might, with all your heart, and you are no longer afraid of dying to give your life for your rights, the right of your own homeland Armenia for Armenians.  That is why I more than agree with you as I have always thought out and said it to my compatriots all my life whenever I could, that we always have to give great heart and encouragement to our people and never discourage them of ourselves, of our great history and for what we have and still stand for.  NEVER.  Otherwise that person is not our friend but our enemy, and Karekin is a Turkophile and not the friend of Armenians.  I felt it and I knew that right away and the same time you did also.

    As for your second wish about Turkey my friend, you know that song, «Մօտ է գարունը շուտով կը բացուի»:

  118. Gayane, with all due respect I humbly suggest that you suspend this comment exchange business with Ragnar. I hoped that the ugly terrorist act in his homeland would somewhat shift his mind towards more understanding of our stance on the genocide and the premeditated intent of the murderers. I’m sorry to say it didn’t. Imagine if there were no video shootings of Anders Behring Brevik’s assassinations and no “2083: A European Declaration of Independence’ that he’d authored, what would the police determine after arrival at the site? Ragnar’s position is, unfortunately, a variation of Turkish denialism. He won’t change even if the Storting adopts recognition of the Armenian Genocide on behalf of the people of Norway. We’d better concentrate our efforts on more important events, activities, and individuals. Unless you still have hope, of course…

  119. Ragnar, it may or may not be fair.  Time will tell.  You are free to believe what you like.  I simply find it inconceivable that we could look at the same body of evidence and not conclude that a barbaric genocide was committed by Turks against Armenians that remains unpunished.   Turkey teaches false history to its students, carries racist laws on its books and fosters a distorted image of Armenians to its public.  These are present day continuations of the xenophobic mindset that fueled the genocide in the first place.   Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.  The fact that the powers that be find it convenient to look the other way for 96 years doesn’t change the magnitude of the original crime, nor Turkey’s culpability for it.  The fact that you persist in your campaign to spare Turkey the full weight of this crime, is suspect to me, and suggests that you are not fair, nor honest in your efforts.  No offense intended; just my opinion. 
     
     

  120. thank you Seervart for the kind words. 

  121. thanks Boyajian.
    thanks  gayane

    As I have said before: It is my pleasure.

  122. Dear Avery, Thanks to you it warms our hearts to have such a brilliant and a patriotic Armenian to have amongst us and when we need it most.  Thanks for being you and thanks for being here!

  123. Mjm jan.. I guess I did have hope…but.. I hate to say this but you are right.. Ragnar in his senior years continues his persuit of “Turkey good”  “Armenians are fool of hot air.. because who said there was Genocide”… Basically there is a saying in Armenian.. ” Inqa ira Eshna Qshum”…. I understand your point and I will not entertain Ragnar’s BS… He has plenty of factual data in detail to change his twisted mind.. It is up to him if he wants to step into the righteousness side of things…

    Gor jan- good idea..:) You are one of the most valuable contributor and i am sure Ragnar will get a sniff of that as well sooner or later…

  124. avatar ragnar naess // August 12, 2011 at 3:30 am // Reply

    Boyajian,
    as you maybe have noticed I have respect for your judgements , willingness to debate and willingsness to look at your own ideas with a critical perspective. However, sometimes you lapse into facile declarations – as we all do, myself included. However, I cannot take a “time will show” statement as relevant here. You said that you doubted that I was a sincere truth seeker, but that is something relating to me today, not for the future to show. I does not make sense. Of course I am hurt by this, of course I will wonder if it is true, as we all should. As one of you said, it is not easy to admit something which you have used years of your life to disprove. – About a barbaric genocide – we have been through this before. When I use loaded expressions like “racism” or “genocide” or “democracy”, I always add some qualifications. This is how we distinguish rhetorics from informed statements. In my drafts I very clearly say that genocide was perpetrated by the Turks against the Armenians, but this kind of statement never stands alone. (This by the way is why I feel you are doing monologue, Gayane, because you end up with the word “genocode” never botheri9ng to cite me on my qualifications. You make it too easy for yourself) If  you are doing a therapy you always ask for concretizations and clarifications. “Genocide” is a juridical term, a research term and a political term. I never say yes to slogans.  - And then it is very strange that  you should take my qualifications as a sign of untrustworthyness. In a way you tie yourself to the slogans, not the analysis. But I dismiss this as a facile expression on your part, maybe out of a feeling of loyalty to your fellow Armenians. That you do facile lapses is evident to me because you applaud Avery’s idea of the need to partition Turkey, while you expressed the wish to discuss with honest Turks when we discussed the demonstration the youths made in the Sourp Khatch. But if you and Avery broadcast your ideas on the partition of Turkey, and you get support among Armenians you can say good by to this kind of discussion with honest Turks. This was a lapse, wasnt it? I cannot interpret it in another way. 

  125. avatar ragnar naess // August 12, 2011 at 3:33 am // Reply

    can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism. 

  126. “Genocide” is a juridical term, a research term and a political term. I never say yes to slogans.”
     
    ‘Genocide’ is not a slogan. Does it remotely resemble Marx’s “Proletarians of all countries, unite!”? It is first and foremost a linguistic term coined to depict the essence of a deliberate killing of a race, which came about as a result of serious academic research. In 1933 Raphael Lemkin wrote a proposal on the ‘crime of barbarity’ to be presented to the Legal Council of the League of Nations in Madrid. This was his first formal attempt at creating a law against what he would later call ‘genocide’. The concept originated in his youth when he first heard of the Ottoman government’s mass killings of its Christian Armenian population during the WWI. Lemkin’s idea of genocide then developed from a linguistic term onto a definition of an offense against humanity and international law.

    “I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times. First to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action.” – Raphael Lemkin
     

  127. Ragnar, your criticism of me has validity: I am loyal to other Armenians and look disparagingly on those who would deprive Armenians even further of a long awaited compensation of what they suffered at the hands of Turks. 
    It may appear contradictory when I support those who dream of land reparation from Turkey, while also advocating dialogue with Turks.  To me this is not a lapse.  It comes from a deeply felt wish to ‘rebalance’ and find just resolution for the near annihilation of a people who wanted nothing more than to live with dignity as equals among their neighbors on the land their forefathers tended for thousands of years.  This may sound rhetorical and I may be naive, but I believe that one can hope for the former in the long run, while sincerely pursuing the latter in the present.  Dialogue with Turks is important as an avenue to confront prejudices and misinformation on both sides.  But dialogue alone is not the goal; it is a path along the road to justice.   And justice to me and you is understood quite differently.  That is the crux  of our problem.  I have an emotional investment in this dilemma, while you appear to be engaged in an historical research project.  I wish you luck and enlightenment on your path.
     
    As to this question:  can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism. 
     
    Perhaps this is overly simplistic and won’t satisfy your question, but I am not an historian or researcher, so will put it this way: 
     
    If you steal from me and hurt my family and never apologize or compensate my loss and on top of that deny your guilt and carry out a campaign that implies that I brought it all upon myself, than I will not trust you and will experience your lack of contrition as a potential future threat.  Then, when your cousin begins attacking my family members, and you stand by offering no assistance, only to later advocate for the cousin who attacked us, I will assume you want my complete destruction and to divide the spoils amongst yourself and your cousin.
     
    Finally, Gor has tried to broaden your understanding of the term genocide with his comment above.  I hope you will read it carefully.  Genocide was a term coined by a pioneering humanist amongst us to shed light on a barbaric act and to assist in the prosecution of such acts.  It was not coined simply to apathetically describe an event.

  128. I promised that I will not entertain you and I intend to do so…but to finish my thought….Ragnar.. like I said… you are not someone we can have dialogue with so I will not waste my time and energy to make you understand that you are fake.. no matter how much academic words you throw at us..

    By you using me as a bait for your conspiracy of words is not welcomed sorry.. you know very well that many of us including MJM, Avery, Boyajian and Gor provided you plenty of evidence or qualifications AS YOU put it.. you have enough of evidence to prove your thought process wrong… why you keep insisting on that same old broken radio… you can’t twist things .. you have been exposed already …. There is nothing else I can tell you to make you understand… have a wonderful dialogue with your TUrkish denialists.. I am sure they will love you …..if not already …..but don’t seek dialogue here when you can’t even express a simple fact: GENOCIDE did happen no matter how many qualitifications your Turkish denialists and yourself try to attach to the word… Aint’ going to work Ragnar.. 

    Take Care…

    Gayane     

  129. “Can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.”
     
    I can. For references, do a simple Google search using the key words highlighted in the black face below.
     
    Turkey remains a threat to Armenians because:
     
    (a)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that refuses to establish diplomatic and economic relations with Armenia. Non-establishment of diplomatic and economic relations with a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sign of threat;
    (b)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that imposed a blockade on the movement of people, services, and goods with Armenia. Imposition of a blockade of a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sheer demonstration of a threat;
    (c)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that refuses to open the borders with Armenia. Keeping the borders closed with a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sign of threat;
    (d)Turkey explicitly—militarily, politically, diplomatically, and through an economic blockade—supported its Turkic extension, newly-minted ‘Azerbaijan’, in waging war against Artsakh as in the early 1990s, thus posing a national security threat to Artsakh and Armenia. And continues to support Azerbaijan against Armenia and Artsakh politically, diplomatically, and through an economic blockade;
    (e)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region whose president in the early 1990s made an explicit threat to drop ‘a couple of bombs’ across the border (read: Armenia);
    (f)Turkey occupied almost half of the sovereign UN member-state of Cyprus as a result of an explicit military invasion in 1974 thus posing a threat to broader regional security;
    (g)Turkey violated state borders of the sovereign state of Iraq in the mid-2000s and advanced deep into the Iraqi territory until stopped by the US troops;
    (h)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that now threatens the sovereign state of Syria with a possibility of invasion;
    (i)Turkey continues to suppress and mass murder Kurds and Zaza thus violating human rights and the rights of the minorities;
    (j)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that has problems with virtually all of its neighbors, because of the earlier invasions of the Seljuks, colonization of indigenous native peoples by the Ottomans, and mass physical extermination of millions of native Christians and destruction or Turkification of their civilizational achievements;
    (k)Turkey continues to deny genocides of Greeks, Assyrians, and most heinously, the Armenians thus preventing the country’s transformation into an open society and establishment of good-neighborly relations with the surrounding nation-states;
    (l)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that kills, imprisons, or deports all those activists who dare to speak the truth about the Armenian genocide;
    (m)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region whose neurasthenic prime minister in the 21st century makes racist remarks about the restoring the past glories of the Ottoman empire and an aspiration to be a voice for the Middle Eastern region and the Balkans and Turkic Muslims.

  130. Avery….you’ve proven nothing! I am not writing propaganda, nor am I either antagonistic or showing any ‘malice’ towards Armenia or Armenians. Quite the contrary, if you can read the English language.  However, patting yourself on the back, blathering nationalistic slogans and unrealistic fantasies just so you can get accolades from the peanut gallery do not negate the realities on the ground. Almost every country within a few hundred miles of the Armenian border is in some sort of chaos, no doubt foreign inspired. If, for some reason, there is a conflagration that engulfs the region, the chances that Armenia will emerge either unscathed or intact are rather remote.  That is the real danger looming on the horizon. If you think anyone, whether it’s Turks, or Kurds or Azeris or Georgians or Russians or Americans are going to reach out and help Armenia, think again. None of them are helping now…and under duress, they will become even more unfriendly. So, blather on, but I prefer to stick to reality. 

     

  131. Gor, your answer is invaluable.  I could have never answered so thoroughly! 

  132. Karekin- you have crossed the line.. WHO ARE YOU to call us a peanut gallery??? You better bite your tongue or else you REALLY true colors are bursting out; hence validating Avery’s very well put description of you… yes we already know you are a realist and not a nationalist… you pretty much are worst than a denialist Turk if you ask me.. you are not promoting what is needed Karekin.. the way you are proposing is actually UNREALISTIC.. so i guess you are not really a realist… but a dreamer…

    Gor jan- BRILLIANT.. thank you for the post…

    Boyajian jan- welll thought out comment to Ragnar… 

    Gayane  

  133. re: ‘Avery….you’ve proven nothing! I am not writing propaganda, nor am I either antagonistic or showing any ‘malice’ towards Armenia or Armenians’
     Karekin: I have, you are, you are, and you are.
     
    re: ‘, if you can read the English language’
    I can read and understand the English language well enough to see through the fog of your propaganda.
     
    re: ‘, patting yourself on the back, blathering nationalistic slogans and unrealistic fantasies just so you can get accolades from the peanut gallery do not negate the realities on the ground.’
    None of my blathering has the aim of getting accolades from anyone.
    And when you say ‘peanut gallery’ , whom are you specifically referring to ? Why don’t you list the names  – so that they can stop giving me accolades.
     
     
    The rest of the blathering in your post has been answered multiple times by me and others on these pages.
     
     
    You asked a question above,
     
     [‘Karekin
    August 10, 2011
    Avery….so once again, do you prefer to see the Kemalists or the Erdoganists running Turkey? I’m curious. Neither is optimal, of course, but I think most people would opt for the lesser of two evils.’]
     
     
    And I answered. Your hysterical reaction to a well thought out , reasonable post is telling.

  134. Karekin,    —-I think the major reason (and I agree there may be others, as Avery alludes to) of your malice towards Armenia and Armenians is of psychological nature. I have no intention nor am I trained to pchycoanalyze you, but you must agree that comments of a poster tell us a bit about his or her character traits. I came to believe that your inner self is hen-hearted, obsequious, and self-depreciating. Hence, your incessant negatives regarding Armenia. In your mind, a smaller state must be subservient to mightier ones. In your mind an oppressed and nearly exterminated people must be hen-hearted in front of the mightier peoples. In your mind, a quest for justice by a smaller nation is an unrealistic fantasy because of the size of a mightier neighbor. These are not the traits of a brave person, I’m sorry to say. I can’t put it better than Avery: “When a man’s spirit is broken, the rest of body goes with it. When a man’s spirit soars, the body follows.” People are often pressured in order to succumb to the wills of mightier individuals or organizations. Although they suffer a lot, whoever manages not to give up, comes out victorious at the end. “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” – Eternally genius words by Mahatma Gandhi. Give them a thought…

  135. in my blatherings above, I made mention of  the superhuman demeanor of Armenian Men Warriors of Artsakh. What I did not mention is the secret ingredient.

    from Seervart’s post:

    “… for their wives pride, and for their children, …”

    What was the secret ingredient ? it was the Armenian Women standing 1 meter behind their men with their children.
    With their wives and children right behind them, no Armenian warrior could or would flinch.

    http://laviesouffrante.tumblr.com/post/4936642526/106-year-old-armenian-woman-guarding-her-house

    I have linked the famous picture of the Armenian grandmother with an AK-47.
    Please study her eyes. Soak in the fierce determination to live free.  And then tell me if these people have not earned the right, a thousand times over, to live in peace as Armenians on their ancestral land.
    Thousands of Armenian women in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s stood behind their men  with AK-47s and RPGs to take on the invaders when their men fell in battle.

    Is there anything more to be said about our people ?
    (Avery’s one-man-peanut-gallery dispensing unsolicited accolades to Armenian women.) 

  136. Avery jan… Bravo my friend….

    Karo jan-Excellent..

    I am part of the peanut gallery and I am PROUD… :) SO you don”t insult me with such names Karekin….. I rather be part of the peanut gallery then a Turkopile or a denialist…

    Gayane     

  137. Avery,

    Great picture! Massege to turks. 

  138. Bravo Gor, your post is very well thought out and brilliant!

    Bravo Boyajian, I was touched by your following sentence and it is the essence of your whole being, your whole psyche that a Ragnar would never understand it.
    “I have an emotional investment in this dilemma, while you appear to be engaged in an historical research project“.
    There are however other compassionate Turks that understand your comlete being, only if: A) they view the Armenian Genocide with the compassion of the human tragedy and the human waste that have occurred, and B) with the compassion and understanding that after such a magnitude of a tragedy some kind of reparation must be given back to the heirs of this wonderful race.

  139. Avery, I saved that wonderful Armenian mamig’s picture and I will print and post it on my wall.  If I had to die, I would rather die against the tatar mob exactly like her, holding an AK-47 in my arms.  I can’t get over her frightful but determined eyes.  Indeed our women don’t fall much behind our men.  We are made from the same ingredient my dear, aren’t we?  The very same Armenian women and children were also fighting next to their brave men in May 28, 1918.  How else we could have won a war against the huge armies of Turkey right after the Armenian Genocide of 1915?  The very same was repeated in the 1990′s Artsakh war.  We are made of the same fabric; our brave men, women and children, aren’t we Avery? 

    Thanks for your wonderful post and picture my compatriot.

  140. avatar ragnar naess // August 13, 2011 at 4:50 am // Reply

    Gor
    I agree with you that the term has a certain history, being coined by Lemkin and developed in his proposal for a juridical term based on his “Axis rule”. The general use of the term is “to kill or destroy a people”. So I was inaccurate. What I have in mind is that words acquire the characteristic of a slogan by a certain type of usage. It is a term that horrifies and indicts, and we sometimes use it in short sentences and without definition or clarification. We use language in this way all the time, and there is in itself nothing wrong with it, to my mind. But I feel that this usage has a problematic aspect if one does not take heed: if you use the word in this way (using the term without definition and clarification) you are very much dependent on how the receiver interprets it. For this reason this slogan-like usage stands in contrast to the usage one should have in therapies, research, law and the like. In this sense the term genocide is also a slogan WHEN USED IN A CERTAIN WAY. This is also my criticism of Gayane. She never noticed that I say “yes, it was genocide if you use the reasoning of the ICTJ as a yardstick, but is is much more uncertain if we imagine a court case in which the handling of ICC and the tribunals for Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, and apply the yardsticks used here to the Armenian case.
    (By the way, I am still wondering about ther juridical term presumption and the use of this term to assign the burden of proof to the Turks when they say that it was NOT genocide. I believe it was you that launched this idea?)
     

  141. Ragnar, I believe you are overly concerned with how Turkish receivers interpret our words.  Of course one should try to communicate in a way that helps others to more easily receive your message accurately.  But to sugar coat your words, at times, risks losing the essence of the message.  Some truths are just hard to swallow.  Genocide is a powerful word for a reason.  It is intended to convey the occurrence of a horrible event that humans collectively condemn.  We all abhor it; even the perpetrators.
     
    What is more important: dialogue or justice?   Yes, both are important, and the first can help lead to the second, but dialogue without the goal of fairness becomes an empty exercise. 

  142. Karo….it’s always interesting to see and read some people’s knee-jerk reactions and pop psychological analyses, because they are 1) entertaining and 2) always wrong in their interpretations. If you or anyone else has ever been in a court of law, you should know very well that it is rare for justice to be served and for truth to prevail.  In most cases, the final judgments rendered often have little to do with hard facts.  More usual, cases are decided based on who presents the best case and who offers the most coherent argument. My point, as always, is that while Armenians have the facts on their side, it is the delivery and presentation of these facts that gets in the way of getting a positive verdict. Now, Mark Geragos seems to do an amazing job and delivering facts and information that results in positive judgments for his clients. As I’ve been very blunt about before, if we want to have any hope in the future, it is not about blathering slogans or fantasies before a world audience, it must be about presenting the best argument on our own behalf, and frankly, Armenians have fallen short on that level. When you add to it the general anti-Armenian sentiment that seems to be all pervasive in diplomatic circles, Armenia cannot afford to have bungling idiots presenting its case, because that is not how to win. I want Armenia and Armenians to win, more than anything else, but what I’ve seen along the way leaves me underwhelmed and disappointed. So, in the face of such losses, Armenians clearly have to come up with a smarter strategy.  Whining and complaining is not enough to win, and neither is having all the facts. Presenting an argument that cannot fail is the way to go, and if that also entails negotiating a settlement, then do it. When you have zero after 95 years, then its better to get something….even if it’s not 100% of what you want…because it’s alot better than zero. 

  143. I have no clue what ‘idea’ you’re talking about, ragnar naess, therefore, it was not me who launched something I have no idea about.
     
    As for ‘slogan-not slogan’ dichotomy introduced by you, Boyajian gave you an exemplary and exhaustive reply. If you’re more concerned with definition and clarification than with the first-hand experiences of the survivors, witness accounts, official dispatches, courts martial verdicts, and the conclusions of the prevailing majority of the genocide scholars, historians, and professional associations, then re-read the definition as in the 1948 UN Convention.
     
    By the way, the general use of the term ‘genocide’ is not exactly “to kill or destroy a people”. It is “to kill a race: genos not demos, (Gr.)

  144. Ragnar- NICE TRY…..You think I forgot what you said and you did not say.. here is what you said many times over… IN DIFFERENT VERSIONS i might add but with the same meaning..after exhausting comment after comment… your thought process is this…”””””” There may be a Genocide BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTt….”” You see that big BUT… yes you represent that BIG BUT… i told you gazillions times… THERE IS NOT BUT… when it comes to Genocide… if you have not had any clarification and definition of what Genocide means and stands for, then obviously you are not doing a great job educating yourselves as you stated in the past….are you???  So your critizism about me really no skin off my nose sir…

  145. Karekin- YOU should not talk.. you said…
    In most cases, the final judgments rendered often have little to do with hard facts.  More usual, cases are decided based on who presents the best case and who offers the most coherent argument

    This is such a “makes sense” statement but if we HAVE YOU or people like you to present the case for the Armenian people, we FOR SURE will not win… so why don’t you do what you preach… arten im nerveri vra es azdum du gites che????

  146. Karekin- DU QO NUYN ESHNES QSHUM… Did we not give you a lengthy response about how far we came in the last few years BECAUSE OF OUR steadfeast fight, and perserverance??? You sound like a broken radio because you continue to write your BS about
    When you have zero after 95 years, then its better to get something….even if it’s not 100% of what you want…because it’s alot better than zero

    This statement is wrong in so many levels that I can’t express how embarassed I am for you and for your ill mannerism with everyone here… amota amot…

    Gayane

  147. avatar ragnar naess // August 14, 2011 at 4:17 am // Reply

     Boyajian, you say: Ragnar, your criticism of me has validity: I am loyal to other Armenians and look disparagingly on those who would deprive Armenians even further of a long awaited compensation of what they suffered at the hands of Turks. Comment: But your comment on Avery’s idea of partitioning of  Turkey was a kind of applause, of course very short (“you are a true patriot” wasn’t it?). And the case for a land reparation (which you mention now)  is very different from supporting the idea of PARTITION of Turkey. Now I spoke about getting in the position of discussing with Turks who really want to go into the question.  Possibly they will discuss land reparation, but partition? Hardly. About my motive you are very mistaken. The historical research is part of my wholistic endeavor which includes research and solidarity work and activism. If I was a mere researcher I would have worked at the University, publishing things, not distributing leaflets to Norwegian tourists going to Turkey or mobilizing Turks to go and listen to the lecture of the genocide researcher Bloxham. You are forgetting our earlier discussions and what I told about myself. I also have an emotional commitment and ethical commitment–otherwise I would not care – but of course is has an other basis than yours. – - Gayane, I see we are not understanding each other. I have not made myself understood, I will try again.

  148. Ragnar, you want me to acknowledge that partition and land reparation are not the same thing.  I do.
    But I also acknowledge that the thought of parts of present day Turkey being returned to various indigenous groups of Asia Minor is quite pleasing.  It is appalling to me that Turkey continues to benefit from murder and theft, denial and distortion of history, and manipulation of my government.  I don’t wish death and destruction on any Turks, but I do long for Mt. Ararat to bear her historic name on world maps, for hidden Armenians to come out of the shadows and for Turkey to admit the truth and offer compensation.
     
    Now, please stop dissecting my words.   I readily admit that emotion and loyalty to ‘my own kind’ come into play for me.  I am human after all.  But I am not the issue.  Justice is.  
     
    About your motives:   I don’t know you and don’t know your motives, but I develop an impression from what you write here and what I hear you say (your participation with known genocide denier Justin McCarthy in a forum he moderated in Utah).  You consistently offend me with your concern for Turkish sensibilities while glossing over the fact that Turkey has gotten away with murder!
     
    Leaflets to Norwegians, urging Turks to go hear Bloxham; these are good things.  Confusing, too.  I still don’t understand your goal in visiting this site.  If you are merely fishing for material for a book to feather your cap, I am not interested.  Because you are not the issue, either.
    Justice is.

  149. Ragnar

    I would love to exchange views and present the hard facts here on these pages but the editor removes the non Armenian comments very often. This is the Armenian freedom of expression but the same editor whines about freedom of expression constantly in turkey. By the way, you should feel absulately free to use any comments made on these pages. It sounds weird to ask for their permission and more peculiar one was the posters reply. If somebody makes a statemant on tv and if you want to use that statement, would you ask pemission? It is the same thing. They have already  publicized their statements So hard luck to them. If you had a private meeting or interview with these guys. Yes you must ask for their permission but not here

  150. This post is a retort to this:
    [“But if you and Avery broadcast your ideas on the partition of Turkey, and you get support among Armenians you can say good by to this kind of discussion with honest Turks.
     This was a lapse, wasnt it? I cannot interpret it in another way. 
    can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.]  (addressing Gayane)
     
    [“But your comment on Avery’s idea of partitioning of  Turkey was a kind of applause, of course very short (“you are a true patriot” wasn’t it?)”] (addressing  Boyajian)
     
    I have no desire to debate the Prof in an endless chain of vacuous posts, which essentially boil down to an overextended version of Clinton’s infamous “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”
     
    However, since two friends – Gayane and Boyajian – were criticized on my account, I will engage for this one occasion.
     
    On the partition of Turkey.
     
    Question: What’s wrong with Turkey breaking up into 3-4 pieces ?
    Don’t Kurds and Zaza have the God given right to live as Kurds, speak Kurdish without being jailed or killed ?
    Don’t the hidden-Armenians have the God given right to live openly  as Armenians  without the threat of being killed ?
    Don’t other ethnicities and religious minorities have the God given right not to be forced to call themselves ‘Turks’ and hide their true identity ?
    What’s so sacred about Turkey in your mind ? Is it because you have an acknowledged bias towards Turks ?
    You have visited/lived inTurkey, have many Turk friends ?
     
     
    Did you similarly lament when Yugoslavia was broken up?
    Did you similarly lament when USSR was broken up?
    Did you lament or celebrate the breakup of Sudan into 2 parts ? South Sudanese certainly celebrated.
    The artificial country of Czechoslovakia peacefully split into Czech Republic and Slovakia: Czecks and Slovaks are doing well and quite happy living separately as friendly neighbors.
    French Canadian minority in Quebec narrowly chose to remain part of Canada after a peaceful, popular referendum. That’s fine too.
    What about the breakup of the Ottoman Empire? How many of the nationalities that were under its yoke you think would want to go back to living as serfs and 2nd class citizens ?
     
     
    Ethnic Turks are only about 50% of Turkey: why should they have the right to tell other ethnicities how to live, what language to speak, what names to have?
    Why should invaders from far away lands have the right to tell the indigenous people what to call themselves, what language to speak, what God to worship ?
    The West broke-up Yugoslavia: why not Turkey? Who decided that  Turks are special ?
    Why shouldn’t Kurds, Zaza, and other minorities have the right to secede from Turks ?
     
    Who decided that territorial integrity is superior to self-determination of Human Beings ?

    Why should the State, a creation of arguably fallible humans, have superior rights to that of what God created – Human Beings ?
     
    And finally, in all my posts wishing for the breakup of Turkey never have I advocated for any violence by Armenians or RoA against Turks.
    My contention is that Turkey will break up due to its inherent internal pressures, the same mechanisms that break up all artificial countries held together at gunpoint. Not due to any action by of Armenians.
    And I have specifically stated I wish no harm to come to ordinary Turks – which seems to escape the notice of the same people that readily notice the word ‘breakup’.
     
     
    It has been said  the best thing that happened to Germany and Japan is that their nationalistic, aggressive, murderous regimes were massively defeated.
    Their peoples experienced a level of death and destruction unknown in their history.
    They realized for the first time in their respective histories what their insane predecessors had been doing to others.
    Both Germans and Japanese became completely changed peoples after WW2.
    Both Germany and Japan are peaceful, wealthy, happy nations now. Their industriousness and ingenuity – which was previously used to create death machines – is now used to create first rate consumer and industrial products admired and used throughout the world.
     
     
    When Turkey lets go of the peoples they are holding by force, ethnic Turks will be much  better off.
    Ethnic Turks will live happier lives devoid of aggression and violence.
    Kurds and Zaza will be happier in their own countries.
    Armenians living  in an Armenia with access to the Black Sea will be a lot wealthier and happier: wealthy, content, happy people don’t go looking for a fight.
    Turkey is a huge country, sparsely populated. Western Armenia (Eastern Turkey) has hardly been developed: Turks have practically abandoned it.  There is absolutely no need for them to hold on to occupied Western Armenia, other than hubris and hatred towards Armenia and Armenians. Their security will not be threatened by letting go.  On the contrary, a larger, more secure Armenia will enhance Turks’ security – for obvious reasons.
     
     
    The whole region will be transformed for the better. It will be no different than the peaceful, prosperous Western Europe. Maybe even better.
     
     
    And finally, Gor produced an extensive list of threats in his Aug 12 retort to the Prof.
    I will add just one item, that is quite appropriate, given that Turks and their Turkphile friends find fault in  my desire for Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces.
     

    Here is a passage from this hyperlink : http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/world/news/24018/
     
    ["Azerbaijan's joy is our joy, Azerbaijan's grief is our grief. Once, historical processes divided Azerbaijan and Turkey and there was a border between us. Now we have good possibilities and we should use them in toto. We are the architects of our future," Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in Baku.] (emphasis mine)
    What do you think that sentence means? Is it anything other than  “our (Turkish) goal is to re-unite the borders of Azerbaijan and Turkey”.
    Q: How do you unite the borders of Azerbaijan and Turkey with Armenia
    being in the way ?
    A: You don’t; you cut Armenia in half or eliminate it altogether.

     
     
     

  151. re: I would love to exchange views and present the hard facts here on these pages”
    Monastras, why don’t you and Mr. Ragnar Naess exchange views and present hard facts on the comments forum of TodaysZaman ?
    They have a very permissive policy towards Anti-Armenian posts, so you guys can have a hate-fest without interference from the moderator of AW. We can come and visit regularly and follow the debate there.
     
    re: This is the Armenian freedom of expression but the same editor whines about freedom of expression constantly in turkey.”
    Many Turks, including yourself, keep bringing the ‘freedom of expression’ canard over and over again, so I’ll try to explain again.
     
    Freedom of Expression, Censorship and such  are terms used for STATEs. There is no freedom of expression for a PRIVATE enterprise.
    They can allow or disallow any and all comments: you and I have no legal right to post. It’s a privilege extended to the public by the private owners of AW for whatever reason they have.
    They can withdraw that privilege anytime for any reason  without prior notice.
     
    I post @TodaysZaman and @Hurriyet frequently.
    Most of my posts to Zaman are published. Some are not.
    Some of my posts to Hurriyet are published. Most are not.
    (guess which posts do not get published)
     
     
    And finally, I asked  you (on these pages) about a certain post of yours  @ Hurriyet several times, which you ignored.
    One reason that AW moderators remove comments by some non-Armenians may be they do not wish to give a platform to Denialists to use an Armenian publication to spread Denialist, Anti-Armenian hate-speech. Is that unreasonable ?
     
    He is what you posted @Hurriyet:
     
    [Guest - Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust]

  152. Oh look… we have an attorney amongst us ladies and gentlemen.. Monastras… HOOORAYYYYYYYYYYYYY….

    Sir.. please don’t talk like everyone should act like Ottoman govt where they TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE without asking…..so your plead to Ragnar to take without asking is pretty much a barbaric mannerism.. but then again I am not surprised to hear something like that from a denialist such as yourself…

    these forums are public forums.. and everything here is for that purpose ONLY. for private matter such as for a research or for a book, that is another matter… no one has our consent to do so…..I did not know you have a law degree and you were ointed to be the leader of your pack to dictate Ragnar what to do.. laughable to say the least….

    Gayane

  153. avatar ragnar naess // August 14, 2011 at 1:44 pm // Reply

    Avery
    with all respect, you are very far from reality. first, of course anybody may hold the view that Turkey should be partitioned. I am for freedom of thought even the most farfetched ones. My point was that if you want to discuss with Turks, you’ll have to choose. Boyajian has earlier expressed the opinion that she wants to discuss with honest Turks. Then you musnt start by launching the idea that Turkey should be divided. That is  IF you want to discuss with Turks, but if you find a pleasure just in launching this idea in AW, what should I say? OK, go on!!– But what you suggest is extremely farfetched. To take the Turkish Kurds: the majority of them live outside the Kurdish core areas. Actually some of the right wing Turks suggested some years ago: YES, give them the south eastern vilayets (for which they will also compete with the Armenians), provinces that are very poor. Leave your shops and businesses in the cities! Of course the Kurds will say no to this, it was only in the first years of PKK’s existence that they had an independent Kurdistan in theor programme. The Zaza is a language group in rapid decline, they are not an ethnic group. the Alevis are spread over the whole country and are wise anough not to repeat the previous mistakes of the Armenians. These groups want a more democratic Turkey. Further you dont seem to realize that what Turkey did in invading Cyprus is from the perspective of international law the same as Armenia did when they invaded – or “freed” – Artsakh. The world community does not approve of it. The Turkish incursions into Irak in order to attack guerilla bases is condemned as a sake of form, but both Syria and Iran are tacitly agreeing. All cpoutries wpould do the same when a neioghbour country cannot protect its borders. So your opinions on Turkey are extremely unbalanced and far fetched. But you are free to voice them here. What I found surprising was that Boyajian applauded you as a patriot. But the she gives more or less a psychological explanation for it. It deals with one’s frustation at Turkish denialism, which I can understand very well. But that does not make this particular post more acceptable
      

  154. Avery, I need to point out a few things and make some corrections. You said etnic Turks are only about %50 in Turkey. You mentioned some 50 millions ethic Turks in your previous post which make some %70 of the total population of Turkey. The question is where did you put the %20 difference in your recent  post. I know that you can make 2×2=5 or even 6 when you want to. But this seems way forward from what we used to see in your comments. 

    back to reality, %85 of the population of Turkey are etnic Turks. Kurds are %11. Zaza are just over %1. So Turkey doesn’t look like  Czech Republic and Slovakia or USSR. Therefore it is unlikely to break up. Yes Some Kurds claim the south eastern Turkey to be Kurdistan which could be %10 to 15 of the country.However, they feel to moderate their demand as half the population of Kurds live in the western and the southern cities.Turkey will suffer from the Kurdish seperatists but that will not a fatal collision at any time in the future. I know that you dream about partition of Turkey but that is the situation.
    @Trust me Kurds and Zaza can speak and learn their languages in Turkey without being jailed or killed.
    @As I posted on these pages before, Hidden Armenians in Turkey are largely exaggerated by the Armenian media as a few of them have come forward and practised their religion but not killed or jailed.So millions of hidden Armenians could have done the same. At least we should have seen several thousand or hundred. Actualy, they weren’t hidden Armenians because they said their neighbours already knew that they are Armenians. So where are they hiding?

    I have a secret proposal about the partition of Turkey but that will remain secret.
     

  155. Avery,

    The answer to your question is I HATE TodaysZaman and I LOVE Armenian Weekly. I want to post many other things but they have been denied by the editor.  

  156. Ragnar,

    Just to remind you that The Alevi isn’t an etnic group but a religious group. Most of the Alevi are etnic Turks, and I support everthing they want. I think that very few people objected their demands in Turkey but the government still do not know what to do about it.

  157. re: ‘But you are free to voice them here.’

    Oh, gee Professor  Naess, I didn’t know I needed your permission to have the freedom to post @ArmenianWeekly. 

    Now I know. Thanks. 

  158. Ragnar,

    You have a tendency to present yourself as the know-it-all professor who is constantly enlightening Armenians.

    The Zaza is a language group in rapid decline, they are not an ethnic group.

    Absolutely not. Since when are you an expert in these matters? Zazas are an ethnic group of Iranian origin and they consider themselves an ethinc group. I don’t know what their aspirations are in terms of getting freedom for themselves but if it is correct that their language is quickly dying then they are basically being Turkified at a rapid pace. You suggest that the same is happening with the Alevis? Too sad and I wouldn’t call it wise even if they are trying not to make the same mistakes as the Armenians. 

    FYI, Kurds dream about a free Kurdistan every single day. I don’t know how realistic it is and I am sure they want a democratic Turkey but a democratic Turkey where they are a minority is not the top of their dreams.

    Further you dont seem to realize that what Turkey did in invading Cyprus is from the perspective of international law the same as Armenia did when they invaded – or “freed” – Artsakh.

    Not at all. Artsakh has been our ancestral land (read the article about excavating the ruins of Dikranakert) and was given as a gift to Azeris by Stalin. Armenians ARE the rightful owners of Artsakh. And YES, Artsakh has been LIBERATED from discriminating foreign rulers. In contrast, Cyprus has been Greeks’ ancestral land, never Turks’, and was INVADED by Turkey. Even when within Azerbaijan, Artsakh had the status of an autonomous republic and people living there had the right for self-determination. I don’t think there was ever Northern Cyprus as a separate entity before the Turkish invasion. There isn’t one even now except in the eyes of the Turks. 

    It is no news that you will do anything to twist facts and evidence to discount our rights and diminish the merits of our case.  
     
      

  159. Ragnar, I think it is time for me to ask my question from Aug. 10th again:  “…rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?”


    Avery, at the risk of offending our Norsk friend, I find myself lapsing into applause again.  I understand what you want for Turkey, I respect that you don’t advocate violence against Turks, I know that you are describing a dream for the future, and I like it.   Turkey needs to learn to coexist without the need to dominate.  They don’t have to pay the price that Germany and Japan paid to learn this lesson, but they may bring it upon themselves if they don’t start looking at history honestly.   In the meantime, I hope you keep on dreaming and encouraging others to dream.  Like a ship that never leaves a harbor, a dream that isn’t allowed to be voiced, is hardly worth having.  No matter how unrealistic to some.

  160. Thanks Boyajian.

  161. Monastras:

    re:  ['Avery, The answer to your question is I HATE TodaysZaman and I LOVE Armenian Weekly. I want to post many other things but they have been denied by the editor.']

    I am not sure if your  statement re  ArmenianWeekly is genuine or facetious.
    In any case, obviously you read my post which mentioned TodaysZaman.
    So obviously you saw and read the last part of it also.

    So please be kind enough to explain your post @Hurriyet to Armenians here.
    Don’t try to hide or avoid it: you know I will keep reminding you whenever you post here.
    And don’t slough it off to the moderators of AW.
    Don’t expect them to publish what you posted @Hurriyet.
    The audience  here is  largely Armenian, with quite a few who have had eyewitness blood-relatives who related what happened in 1915-1923 to their children and grandchildren.

    The eyewitness accounts are very traumatic for the descendants of AG survivors: don’t expect AW to assist Turks in their Denialist campaign.

    If you stand by your post @Hurriyet, then don’t expect any Armenian to have a civil debate with you here. Either  state  publicly  here  on record that  you  stand  by  it,  or  retract  it and apologize. But make a stand either way. 
     
    I will address the discrepancy in my numbers at  a later post. 

  162. Avery jan— APRES my friend… BRAVO…

    Gina- EXCELLENT post.. apres…

    Monastras- NEVER SAY NEVER….No one ever thought USSR will break up like that.. no one and guess what they did? So i would not be too sure and full of BS of yourself about Turkey… there is a chance that your beloved Turkey that was created due to looting, murder, rape and stealing from my people and other civilized nations will fall into the same fate… don’t be too quick to jump up and down from joy….Hey Monastras, here is the link about Hidden Armenians… and guess what??? It was not presented or showed by an ARMENIAN media but NON-ARMENIAN media.. so your statement is as dumb as your comments on other things…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h69Zz0sV0GY

  163. Monastras and Ragnar– maybe you should read this comment from an ordinary Turk who posted on Todays Zaman… It is unfortunate that we have very few heros like this man and few others who are brave enough to stand up against all odds and express their disgust with you denialists….I am going to post this where Necati can read again and again and again.. hope you two do the same… the End…

    Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi , 28 July 2011 , 05:34

    Necati…Do you honestly beleive that all of us Turks, should follow the denialist and reactionary attitude that you possess? What makes you a better Turk than I? So, with your logic, If I put Armenia and Armenians down, poke fun at them, and deny the Genocide committed by our esteemed Ottoman government, (the same Ottomans who wanted Ataturk killed) would that make me a better Turk than you? My grandfather was a direct witness to the Genocide, when he found the battered body of his best friend, a young Armenian kid, butchered and thrown like a dead dog. It affected him so much, that years later he asked my father and instructed us to Never forget the injustices done to the Armenians. Do you consider Orhan Pamuk a Turk? Here is a Turk who singlehandedly brought Turkey more positive recognition than all of our political and military leaders combine. Why is it that we are afraid of the truth? All I hear from denialist Turks is that..”..the Armenians betrayed us and allied themselves with Russia..” FYI, Armenians Never denied that, but what would you expect from a people whom we taxed heavily and called them all the names in the book, one being “kâfir”, treating them as a second class citizens and the list is long. So, to conclude, I consider Pamuk, Akcam, and thousands of other proud Turks whose only aim is to accept the happenings of 1915, and move on as good neighbors. Trust me, accepting the Truth (Genocide will set us all free from the long arms of murderers who until today assassinates journalists, does the assassination of Dink ring a bell? Stop hiding behind your weapons and guns..in the end, trust me the “pen is mightier than your sword.” My grandfather, father and brothers served with dignity and courage in the armed forces of our beloved Turkey, and just because I speak the truth and do Not agree with you, you’re trying to silence me? Nobody can take my Turkishness from me, let alone you.

  164. Hey Monastras.. you complain about AW but your own Turkish site (Todays Zaman) may NEVER publish any of comments all together because of such a message.. is it because they don’t want us to post our comments freely without any restrictions and have to use such BS as due to high volume of e-mails?? LOL but you don’t see us whining about it do you???? unlike you…..LOL.. too funny..

    Your comment will shortly be read by the Today’s Zaman Internet editorial team. If it is selected for publication it would normally appear on the site within the next few hours. Due to the high volume of emails received by us we cannot guarantee that your comments will be published

  165. avatar ragnar naess // August 15, 2011 at 2:42 am // Reply

    Monastras, thank you for your posts. I did field work with  Alevis  and published an article in 1985 (in Gerholm and Lithman: the new Islamic presence in Europe, title: “Being an Alevi Muslim in South West Anatolia and in Norway”). Now this is based on a prolonged relationship with people from one village and on literature, and I do not claim access to absolute knowledge, but I believe that Turkish Alevis on the whole fulfill the criteria of an ethnic group. One important criteria is that they fairly rarely intermarriage with Sunnis. But of course they regard themselves as Turks  and Muslims, indeed representatives of “true Islam”, so whether they should count as an ethnic group or not is a matter of definition.  

  166. avatar ragnar naess // August 15, 2011 at 3:09 am // Reply

    Gayane, I would not say that the crime committed towards the Armenians is a “kind of genocide”. I have in mind the same type of qualification that I present in my answer to Monastras regarding “ethnic group”. The truth of what we say in this case may depend not only on facts about the people whom we believe to constitute an ethnic group, but on how we define  the term “Ethnic group”. My point is that the words we use are tricky in the sense that people not only sometimes understand different things when they utter different words, but sometimes understand different things when they utter the same word. And this gives rise to misunderstandings. In the same way there is sometimes a need to explain more in detail what we mean by the word Genocide, not only use it as an expression that conveys our sorrow and anger at the unspeakable crime that was committed against the Armenians. As I have said the events clearly constitute genocide if you use the reasoning of the ICTJ, that is the agency to which the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission addressed themselves in 2002 to have a legal opinion. But if you ask the question “was it a genocide?” in a strictly juridical sense, that is according to the reasonings applied in the Convention and above all the verdicts regarding Rwanda and Bosnia and the legal opinions regarding e.g. Darfur, I am not sure and believe many Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide also according to this reasoning. But this should not stop us from fighting for justice for Armenians, and from trying to convince Turks that they must go honestly into this black spot of their past, which also means to fight for a more democratic Turkey. Now I may look ridiculous and pompous as a solitary Norwegian who does this, but then this is what I want to do, stupid or not, mistaken or not (I can give you the phone of my psychologist if you want, he can give an opinion on me, I hereby exempt him from his duty not to tell others about his clients).    

  167. Lemkin struggles for years to coin a word to describe what happened to Armenians and Jews and comes up with ‘genocide.’  Now we are second guessing the creator of the term about whether Armenian massacres qualify.  Does this make sense, Ragnar?  You are playing with words as if it were a game for a Saturday afternoon diversion.  You have gotten so lost in terms and definitions that you are losing sight of common sense.  You are defining yourself right into ridiculousness.  Perhaps you should take a step away and take a wide angle shot.  The details are confusing you.

  168. “Was it a genocide? I am not sure and believe many Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide[…]”

    For your information, this is maintained not only by ‘quick’ Armenians who lost 2 million of fellow nationals, two-thirds of their historic homeland, and all of their cultural and religious edifices and personal properties to murderer Ottoman Turks, but by a great number of non-Armenians, too. Amongst them are leading genocide scholars, historians, anthropologists, international lawyers, human rights activists, diplomats, politicians, and Nobel prize laureates. Against the backdrop of these experts, who are you to not be sure if it was a genocide? Who are you to place in question the premeditated crime committed against Armenians? “I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times. First to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action.” Do you consider yourself smarter than the inventor of the term, international lawyer and genocide scholar Raphael Lemkin? Has you psychologist ever told you that you might be suffering from Herostratos’ complex?
     
    The Alevis are spread over the whole country and are wise enough not to repeat the previous mistakes of the Armenians.”

    Should one conclude that not only are you a genocide denier, but an Armenophobe, as well? What are the ‘mistakes’ that Armenians have made? Quest for freedom was a mistake? Or the right to live as masters on their native lands was a mistake? Might it be that Armenians have in turn repeated the ‘mistakes’ of Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, Romanians, Greeks, Arabs who similarly aspired to throw off the yoke of the Turkish oppressors? Because they succeeded and Armenians were savagely slaughtered en masse, it means Armenians have made a ‘mistake’?

  169. ragnar naess    —-The more you post the more you expose yourself as a Turkish sympathizer. I have no problem with anyone being a sympathizer of something or someone per se, but to post biased comments (e.g. ‘not sure if it was a genocide’, ‘invading Cyprus is the same as invading Artsakh’, ‘Armenians made mistakes’, and many others in the past) while portraying yourself an advocate of peace and justice (with dubious motives) and a junior scholar (with dubious credentials), leads us to believe that you’re none other than a petty Turkish apologist.

  170. Gor jan, Very well said as you gave the true picture of Ragnar, who pretends that he is a non-denialist scholar but HE IS.

  171. EXACTLY dear Karo and Gor… That is what I, Boyajian, MJM exposed him of in our past experience with Ragnar… MJM/Boyajian jan.. what topic were we discussing with this man?  If any of you want more exposure to how Ragnar is, this discussion platform will give you plenty of evidence..

      …Actually Boyajian and MJM were more civil and professional with him than I had been.. However, when one continues to act like a fake promoter of justice and freedom of speech and understanding of what happened to Armenians by throwing us academic, dimplomatic or scientific BS truly shows who the person is.. and he is confused as to why we address him the way we do… Ragnar… may you ask your physocologist if you are fit to do such research because obviously you think you are but to general public, especially for Armenians, I am sorry but you are not qualified or you are able…

    Rangar- YES you would and did say ” that there was kind of Genocide”…  

    Apres Boyajian jan… apres…  

  172. avatar ragnar naess // August 15, 2011 at 1:39 pm // Reply

    boyajian, you write:
    “…rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?”. —
    Comment: Yes, I will try to answer and lets do what you propose. I started out in the discussion regarding this bedrosian article by commenting on “Anadolu”, partly on his condescending remarks on the Armenians’ fight for justice regarding Armenian churches and schools, partly on the arrests of april 24, 1915. There came no answers from “Anadolu”, but Gayane raised the old issue of “what side are you on”. Then you asked the question you repeated now. I must admit I overlooked your question then, and I’ll try to answer now.
    To advance justice it is necessary to continue to argue with Turks about what actually happened in 1915-16. I have posted several messages in “Daily Zaman” and “Daily Hurriyet” about this. It is important that all of us who care about the Armenian case try to find Turkish fora in which dialogues can be made. I will continue to do this, and also argue against those who belittle the catastrophy that befell the Armenians, and deny that what happened certainly is genocide according to the criteria of ICTJ. I will stick to this in the future. I see I ended up in another debate following Gayane’s lauching of the theme of “what side I am on”. I will not do it again.
    Second I hope to have Norwegians at large get interested in the issue. The problem now is that nobody is interested. Whether this is done by political means, by trying to mobilize Amnesty International or by other means is another matter. At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide, understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, is the most important.
    In order to convince Turks I will start with Talat’s admissions, which actually are admissions of a crime. I will ask what this tells us about his intentions and the intensions of the central ittihadists. I will point to the fact that perpetrators hardly ever were brought to justice. I will say that it is the Turks who have the burden of proof that it was not a case of genocidal intent on the part of the ruling people. I will do it mainly by asking questions, and criticizing the answers, not trying to advance my case by saying that “historians say that…” or “it has been proven that…”. This is unproductive.
    As you have seen I support the Armenian cause with certain qualifications. I will not support the arguments forwarded by genocide scholars and Armenian scholars when I experience them to be dubious or have been shown to be mistaken. It is important to correct these views because otherwise conservative Turks will pick them up to show that “the Armenians are mistaken” and this serves to slow down justice. To insist on the Turks’ having the burden of proof and corroborating it with god arguments will speed up justice.
    I wanted to write something in the discussion after Bedrosian’s article because I believe it is good strategy for Armenians – and myself – to address Turks in Turkey, and recovering churches is a good strategy. What the ARF says about not making genocide recognition the primary strategy, but to focus on reparations and reclaiming churches – not forgetting about what happened ion 1915 and still promote an iunderstanding of this-  is good strategy to my mind.
     At the same time I believe it is important to admit that there was a cycle of violence and that Turks – in revenge and fear – did to Armenians something that Bulgarians, Russians and Greeks had been doing to them, only on a much larger scale. To admit this must not make us deflect from the main aim which is to seek justice for the Armenians, but if challenged by Turks it must be admitted (see the Libaridian article I mentioned in earlier posts).
    I believe it was unwise of the Armenians to refuse to participate in the commission of historians proposed by the Turkish government in 2005. It was a tactical blunder which has given the reactionary part of Turkish society apparently good arguments against the Armenians. Secondly, a commission would properly organized have been an excellent platform for researchers who defend the Armenian cause, because Turkish researchers on the whole have very distorted views and this would be visible to the international audiences.
    You are asking a very big question. I hope I at least managed to give some elements of an answer.    

  173. avatar Necati Genis // August 15, 2011 at 2:08 pm // Reply

    Ragnar,

    I do not know your nationality but I must admit that You are one of best scholars i  have ever seen  with all open-mind , historical and philosophic bases you have.

    Unfortunately,   most of the  people here  have  no base or will to understand what you say.

    I know you are in preparation of a book.  And i want to  read your books  although  a few things i cant agree with you. I would be so glad if you can e-mail me your name so i can  look for your books.

    I  have now written here one more time knowing that  many will blame me with shamelessness …

    Oh well.. i only need your name ..i dont care others…

    my e-mail:  nec3@hotmail.com

  174. correction:

    “Ragnar”   >>>  would be     ” Dear Ragnar  Naess”

  175. avatar ragnar naess // August 15, 2011 at 2:17 pm // Reply

    Boyajian,
    no, I believe you are mistaken, such definitions are absolutely necessary. Read the verdicts from Rwanda and the Bosnia-Serbia case. The Bosniaks had a naive belief that what happened to them was genocide committed by the leadership of Yugoslavia/Montenegro. They lost. And the idea that BECAUSE Lemkin coined the term “genocide” the 1915 events MUST be a genocide according to the Convention, that is according not only to the definitions but according to the verdicts and treatment of the matter  in the trials after 1990 is a very strange idea, to my mind. But enough of this. Now you have an idea of how I will promote justice.

  176. Unfortunately, I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures that the (only) underlying reason they oppose the use of the word genocide, is that they feel they have a technicality on their side: that the word was not coined until AFTER 1923 ! and that it cannot be applied retroactively – even though the word came into existence to describe their own actions from 1915 – 23.  

    Perhaps this little tidbit provides some insight and explains, at least in part, why they feel they can play the genocide card in recent instances of much smaller massacres around the world, but they themselves feel immune to it when it comes to discussing Armenians. They clearly know the truth, despite all their protestations and attempts to blame Armenians for their own demise.  So, while I wholeheartedly agree that the real audience for any of this is actually in Turkey, by way of strategizing and using legal means, perhaps it would make sense to convey this key element of timing and the true history behind the term, to them?  

    Lemkin’s face and words have been recorded on videotape for posterity….translate them into Turkish and play them over and over again until they are understood by more and more people. Eventually, the message will get thru and the truth will rise to the top. Whether or not this offers any hard change on the ground, though, is open to debate. It could result in an apology from the government, but as we can read here…that clearly is not going to be enough. There will need to be more if this issue is to become settled history at some point in time. 

     

  177.  Necati.. Please read a message to you from your Turkish comrade from Today’s Zaman… Please read and soak what he is truly saying.. you, Ragnar and your pack no matter how many ways you say it or how many ways you try to twist the truth, anyone in their right mind and conscious knows the truth.. Even your brethren is telling you to SHUT UP and smell the reality… Take his word…

    Enjoy

    Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi , 28 July 2011 , 05:34
    Necati…Do you honestly beleive that all of us Turks, should follow the denialist and reactionary attitude that you possess? What makes you a better Turk than I? So, with your logic, If I put Armenia and Armenians down, poke fun at them, and deny the Genocide committed by our esteemed Ottoman government, (the same Ottomans who wanted Ataturk killed) would that make me a better Turk than you? My grandfather was a direct witness to the Genocide, when he found the battered body of his best friend, a young Armenian kid, butchered and thrown like a dead dog. It affected him so much, that years later he asked my father and instructed us to Never forget the injustices done to the Armenians. Do you consider Orhan Pamuk a Turk? Here is a Turk who singlehandedly brought Turkey more positive recognition than all of our political and military leaders combine. Why is it that we are afraid of the truth? All I hear from denialist Turks is that..”..the Armenians betrayed us and allied themselves with Russia..” FYI, Armenians Never denied that, but what would you expect from a people whom we taxed heavily and called them all the names in the book, one being “kâfir”, treating them as a second class citizens and the list is long. So, to conclude, I consider Pamuk, Akcam, and thousands of other proud Turks whose only aim is to accept the happenings of 1915, and move on as good neighbors. Trust me, accepting the Truth (Genocide will set us all free from the long arms of murderers who until today assassinates journalists, does the assassination of Dink ring a bell? Stop hiding behind your weapons and guns..in the end, trust me the “pen is mightier than your sword.” My grandfather, father and brothers served with dignity and courage in the armed forces of our beloved Turkey, and just because I speak the truth and do Not agree with you, you’re trying to silence me? Nobody can take my Turkishness from me, let alone you.

  178. Ragnar—- YOu said  “catastrophy that befell the Armenians”.. I beieve the true word for this catastrophy of yours is GENOCIDE… you are not fighting for ARmenians and I would not want you to fight for us… I don’t trust or rely on you to share the most accurate and NON BIASED message.. so thanks but no THANKS… appreciate the messed up thought that you think you are helping but in reality you are creating more confusion and denial… so get off this case and persue something tat you are more suited to do.. Sorry forthe harsh words but MJM was right.. no point of talking to you… you are NO poin of return… Good day sir….

  179. Armenian posters: read this sentence carefully.  

    ‘…Unfortunately, I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures…’ 

    Question: who among you talks regularly to certain high level Turkish figures
    (‘more than once’ implies regular contact with high level Turkish figures)

  180. well done Gayane. I am very proud. I can leave the scene now. One of our own has learned to use the tools of the trade very well, and wields them with expertise.
    Armenian Lady Samurai.

    (just kidding….I am not leaving: too much fun jousting with the Denialists) 

  181. ‘…you are creating more confusion…’

    Exactomundo: that’s their goal; no more, no less. 

  182. ragnar naess,   the idea is not that because Lemkin coined the term ‘genocide’ the 1915 events must be a genocide. You got it wrong again. It’s his studies of the Armenian case (along with the Jewish one) that led to coining the term ‘genocide’ to depict the essence of what happened: killing of a race. That is, he examined Allies’ definition in 1915: ‘crime against humanity and civilization’, then in the 1930s came up with ‘crime of barbarity’ to depict Turkish mass murders, and then, in 1943, with ‘genocide’. The premeditation of mass murders, their scale, and target on a particular racial, ethnic, and religious group awaited their semantic and legal definition. In other words, in 1915-1923 it was genocide that was called differently by individuals, media, diplomats, politicians, and world government, and the 1943 Lemkin’s definition reflected upon the crime by coining the term. In the Armenian case, there have been verdicts and treatment of the matter in the trials: Turkish courts martial of 1919-1920 that charged several top individuals representing the Turkish state of the massacres of both Armenians and Greeks, forming a key argument in the Treaty of Sèvres, which resulted in the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire.

  183. Avery…who said ‘regularly’?  No one, but you. However, even you can send an email to people in Turkey and you will, fairly often, get a response!  Try it sometime and you’ll probably get a note back, particularly if you send a sane, intelligent letter, or ask a topical question. They regularly publish their email addresses in the Turkish media when they write articles. Communication is a great way to learn new things. Try it. 

  184. Karekin, I’m afraid you gave yourself away by “I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures.”  I thought you said you were wandering in Kurdish villages in Western Armenia and also visiting the remaining Armenian churches in Constantinople.  But it looks like you also had high-level meetings with Turkish officials.  Hmmm, that sounds thought-provoking…

  185. To Ragnar, Necati, Robert the turk, and whom it may concern,

    You Turks have untill August 19 to respond to US federal court regarding the lawsuit filed by ARmenians regarding their lost property during AG. (it also includes Incirlik Military Base, for which USA pays around $10mil every year).

    AT LEAST UNTIL THEN YOU SHOULD DISAPPEAR FROM AW PAGES AND THINK ABOUT WHAT TO SUBMIT OR HOW TO RESPOND TO THAT LAWSUIT.  YOU SHOULD ONLY VISIT AW IF YOU SEEK AN ADVICE. GOOD LUCK>

  186. ….a yeah, I am sure Turks would leave an email trail like that. 
    (prove me wrong: reproduce the emails with their addresses here on these pages)
    (they are pubic, No ? you said so.) 
    (make sure they arefrom ‘high level Turkish figures,not some Joe Shmoe,)
    (because I will check the emails and the addresses for authenticity.)

    The phrase ‘high level Turkish figure’  implies a high level Turkish official.
    Why is it that it sounds and feels different than ‘people in Turkey’.

    the phrase “…have been told….” is more often than not used to denote conveyance of verbal communication: you slipped pal, and for a moment the mask came off for all to see who you really are. Too late. It’s on record.

    I knew it all along, but am I glad you inadvertently revealed yourself for all to see. 

  187. you AW  know what is happening? 

    I am turning to  a tiger  from a man like a  sheep day by day each time  i read you,

  188. Necati- Unfortunately, you have lost your mind.. I know it can affect someone when that someone finally realizes that they are indeed a denialist… that can be very hard on the person.. i know… your last post truly demonstrates your incoherence with your own self and words.. you made NO SENSE…. but reading and figuring out messed up in their head individuals very well.. I think I figured what you were TRYING to say… i am going ot take a wild guess here…

     You say after reading the post on AW (or posts from someone specific.. can’t tell from your writing) you turning into a  beast from a man is nothing unusual Necati.. That trait comes from your ancestors who demonstrated such beastly traits and acted upon them and almost destroyed an ancient civilization.. Armenians..Therefore, your argument that the posts here make you turn into a beast is inaccurate… it is your subconscious self dictating how dangerous you are to society and if there are people like you in Turkey (which I know for sure they are… the lost denialists) roaming around, then how do you expect peace loving Armenians to have a conversation with a violent beast like creatures…. Oh my goodness, I feel like I am in the horror movie “the warewolf”… might as well.. no difference when it comes to denialists…

    Have a good day

  189. Vay Avery jan..yes qez shat em sirum.. yes qez chem imanum bayts arten vorpes im expayrs shat em sirum…:) Armenian Lady Samurai.. :) that is great.. loved it.. but guess what??? I learned it from the best… and I thank you and everyone else..:)

    Karekin- Karekin— my friend lost in translation… see what happens??? this is a lesson to you and those denialists and Turkish sympathizers….. THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT SOONER OR LATER..

  190. Hi Avery, We finally caught Karekin.  Inkezink mechdegh hanets che?

    Thanks Gayane jan, I liked the article you put out from Mine Oszcelik Bagrationi.  There are sympathetic Turks, I know.  We wish there were more of them who would speak truthfully about the Armenian Genocide.

    Gor jan, You gave very good explanations to Ragnar about how Lemkin coined for the murder of the Armenian nation to call it a Genocide.

  191. avatar ragnar naess // August 16, 2011 at 2:56 am // Reply

     
    AR
    thank you for giving us this date of august 19. Indeed I will look for news because this will be an opportunity to launch the story in Norwegian papers, so that it will be possible to have norwegians think about the genocide and what Turks and Armenians are doing. But why this unfriendly message of DISAPPEARING from AW until then?
    Gor
    Of course you are right that the fact – that Lemkin coined this word based on what he knew about the events of 1915 – is not the only reason why we call the massacres and deportations of Armenians, the confiscation of property, the destruction of churches, the number of Armenians forced to convert to Islam – for genocide. My comment was based on what Boyajian wrote: quote: Lemkin struggles for years to coin a word to describe what happened to Armenians and Jews and comes up with ‘genocide.’  Now we are second guessing the creator of the term about whether Armenian massacres qualify.  Does this make sense, Ragnar? Unquote. I always try to comment on people’s exact words. But when I reread it now, I realize that I maybe misunderstood Boyajian. Sorry, Boyajian!
    Gayane, did what I said about clarifying what words mean make any sense for you?( By the way, my reference to my psychologist was a joke). I respect you as a persons who fights for what you believe in, but when you have no comments after I have tried to explain myself, you must again excuse me for feeling that you are engaging in a monologue, not a dialogue.
    Karekin, Avery, the official Turkish position as far as I know is that “genocide” is a juridical term, and hence when one uses it one must give heed to juridical nuances. I believe this is mistaken. The term is a juridical term, further a research term because genocide researchers made it very clear that for research purposes they need another concept than the juridical one. Third it is a moral term which conveys our anger and condemnation of a crime. Fourth it is obviously a political term. This characteristic it shares with words like “discrimination” which is used in everyday speech, but which also has a juridical meaning which leads to quite intricate and technical  reasonings in many cases (is it discrimination or isnt it?). So conservative Turks cannot simply reject the assertion that genocide happened by pointing to the fact that the law was made after the events.  The question whether given events before 1951 constitute genocide or not, taken as a juridical question, is not impossible to answer. This is the point made by ICTJ in 2002. I believe this is correct. That the perpetrators cannot be punished by a law getting into force in 1951 for something they did in 1915, apart from the fact that most of the perpetrators probably were dead, is another matter.  

  192. In a world where fantasy persists as reality, it should come as no suprise to me that you are all inventing new conspiracies and intrigues. Believe me….it’s not all that complicated or difficult. There is nothing mysterious or devious.  The fact that you are cannibals who will eat anyone – even an Armenian – who does not agree w/ you 1000% and challenges your fantasies, is what has been revealed, more than anything else. It seems that you would rather preserve your unshakable, and somewhat arrogant ideologies rather than do pro-active things that will support, preserve and grow Armenia. Please do not try to shift the focus here….this discussion is not about me….at the same time, do not sacrifice Armenia on the altar of ideology and for the lure of fantasy. You have no right to do that. Yes, you can read Jirayr’s article and scoff, but guess what? He too has put truth on the table…reject it at Armenia’s peril.   

  193. Gayane,

    Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?

    We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal. 

  194. Avery,

    I will ask you a simple question one more time. Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now? If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you. If they said it wasn’t a genocide you shut up.

    It appears that you seriously  think that you are an Armenian commander, jumping from this front to that front, fighting ferociously against the Turks, congratulating your little successes, giving orders to your soldiers as well as the enemy soldiers(probably by mistake). What you do not realize is we are actually all (including you) keyboard knights

  195. Ragnar

    I am not an ethnicity expert but a fairly good reader. As far as I am concern, Alevis aren’t an ethnic group. There are Zaza Alevis, Kurdish Alevis, and Turkish Alevis and recently I learned that even Albanian Alevis exist. Therefore, if there is no intermarriage we cannot class them as a different ethnicity as Kurds and Turks are different ethnicity but the intermarriage is common between those groups. 

  196. Monastras:  I will ask you a simple question one more time: do you or do you not stand by this post of yours

    [Guest - Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust]

    Yes or No ? 

  197. avatar ragnar naess // August 16, 2011 at 10:13 am // Reply

    Monastras
    I am not an expert either, and I believe there exist different definitions. But the Alevis I know intermarriage to some extent with kurdish alevi, incidentally mostly from Sivas, it appears. But marriages between them and local sunnis are extremely rare, unless there has been a change in the last years. So they satisfy one common criteria of being an ethnic group. But all such boundaries are fluid I believe, and Alevi practices in other places may be very different for all I know

  198. avatar ragnar naess // August 16, 2011 at 10:34 am // Reply

    monastras
    there is no need to go to any international court if the question  whether the horrible fate of Armenians in 1915 can legitimately be called genocide. The ICTJ answered this in the affirmative. The events can be called genocide. ICTJ gave a legal advice, not a verdict, (see my post above). If one looks at the way the ICTJ phrased it, the criteria they used,  it is by the way very hard to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria or the Circassians in the Caucasus also suffered genocide. But the Armenian debacle was much greater than the other one, so we rightly support the Armenians, also because they  actually have been knocking on all doors to have Turks go honestly into the dark aspects of their past. Many Turks seem only to bring up the catastrophy that befell the Turks when discussing with Armenians. But this equalizing is of course unacceptable. The Armenians have stated a case and should be answered properly. But I will not repeat and repeat the word genocide which obviously applies. If one reads the stories of the massacres, the rapes, the woman and children marched to death or slaughtered in 1915-16, only people with a heart of stone can fail to be moved to compassion and demands for justice.   

  199. Այո Seervart.

  200. “Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now?”
     
    Monastras, because Armenia (or, to be exact, what was left of her after the genocide and theft of lands and properties by Ottoman Turkish barbarians) has become the subject of international law merely 20 years ago after the break-up of the USSR. The new state had to deal with many problems: consequences of a devastating earthquake, the aggression of Aliyevstan against self-determining Artsakh, and the numerous problems at state-building. Everything will come at the right time and at the right place. ICJ included. But already we have the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) resolution that ruled that the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians fits into the internationally accepted definition of genocide. We also have International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) resolution that reaffirmed that the mass murder of Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to the statutes of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. As you may know, we also have the  increasing number of foreign parliaments, central and regional governments, EuropeanParliament, international organizations, professional associations, human rights groups, genocide scholars, historians, international lawyers, and Nobel prize winners attesting to the fact of genocide.
     
     
    “If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you.”
     
    Monastras, is this the limit of Turkish mental capabilities? I mean, if someone says something to you, then you will parrot? Are you not capable of doing a simple research in non-Turkish and non-Armenian sources to try to answer a question: was it a genocide? What happened to 2-2.2 million of Western (Ottoman) Armenians from 1915 to 1923? Could 2.2 million unarmed and disorganized people—amongst them women, children, and the elderly—be ‘collaborators’ with Ottoman empire’s enemies? How did they technically ‘collaborate’ if the bulk of them lived in rural areas far detached from the frontlines of the WWI? Where are those native inhabitants of their own lands now? Where are their churches, monasteries, schools, religious seminaries, houses, pastures, bank accounts, insurance indemnities, personal properties? How could the whole people be slaughtered en masse if their government was not involved? The answer, that the rest of the world except Turks knows, offers itself: it was a premeditated, planned, and centrally-executed mass murder directed against a particular national, ethnic, racial, and religious group — the Armenians. The same mass murder was executed, although at lesser death scale, against other Ottoman Christian groups: Greeks, Assyrians, and Syriacs. When you’ll learn this, answer to yourself what kind of a nation the Turks are.

  201. Monastras,you had asked Avery this question:
    Quote
    Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now? If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you. If they said it wasn’t a genocide you shut up.
    Unquote
    The Genocide is an accepted fact for Armenia & Armenians & it is not disputable.On top so many countries around the world have recognised the Armenian Genocide committed by the Ottomans.
    For Turkey as the inheritors of the Ottomans(who committed the Armenian Genocide) the Armenian genocide is disputable.Turkey has seriously studied in approaching the International Court of Justice & has put aside a budget of $25 million for this cause.However it has not done so far (by getting proper legal advice) for the simple fact that it will lose the case since so many countries have already recognised it.
    So it is the duty of people like you to push your own government to apply to the International Court of Justice.

  202. To all Turks and their sympathizers who bloviate about lawsuits and such.
    AR already mentioned the lawsuit  (Alex Bakalian et. al vs. Republic of Turkey, the Central Bank of Turkey, and T.C. Ziraat Bankasi et. al, Case Number 2:10-CV-09596, December 15, 2010) in his post above.
     
    But here is the interesting passage:
     
    [The plaintiffs have spent recent months attempting to serve all the defendants, and then to have the court affirm their service efforts. In the August 2 order, the court denied Central Bank of Turkey and Ziraat Bank‘s motion to dismiss the complaint for insufficient service of process. The court acknowledged that the plaintiffs presented “credible evidence that their process servers made several attempts to serve the bank defendants at addresses in “New York City… [and] were repeatedly denied access to the buildings and [were even]…misdirected as to Ziraat Bank’s actual location.”] (emphasis mine)
     
     
    Now we don’t if this particular lawsuit will be ultimately successful for the plaintiffs or not: time will tell. However, I have a question:
     
     
    If Turks have nothing to hide, why are they hiding ?

  203. Turks in Bulgaria [...] also suffered genocide” (?!)

    ragnar naess,    Turks in Bulgaria were occupiers and colonizers. I regret the loss of human life, but do please call things by their name: Ottoman Turks came to invade and colonize the Bulgarians, as well as several other indigenous Balkan peoples. Turks suffered losses when Bulgarians, as well as other Balkan and Middle Eastern peoples, stood up to throw off the yoke of the Turkish oppressors. By no account were the Turkish losses in the Balkans reminiscent to genocide. Their losses were the consequence of national liberation movements of the people Turks oppressed for centuries. This has no comparison whatsoever with the premeditated and centrally-planned and executed mass murder of Armenians by the Ottoman government. Besides, for the sake of objectivity, when you talk about Turks in Bulgaria, do you care to mention what atrocities Turks have committed against the Bulgarians, as well as Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, and Montenegrins? The key to understanding what happened to Turks in the Balkans is that they were colonizers. No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless. No serious genocide scholar or a historian—unless he or she is paid by the Turks or is a professor at a Turkish university—will accept that “Turks in Bulgaria suffered genocide.” Even if as a sign of utopia we admit that “Turks in Bulgaria suffered genocide”, how exactly that relates to the genocidal extermination of the Armenians, who were nowhere near the Balkans? Among other things, Turks were motivated by the desire to salvage as much land as possible for themselves, and Armenians, residing in eastern parts of Turkey, were seen as an obstacle towards achieving the goal. Genocide of Armenians by the Turks has no remote correlation with the losses Turks had suffered as a result of expulsions of Turkish occupiers from the Balkans. You keep making mistakes lately…

  204. Gor, VTiger

    Thank you for your reply. I think that either I couldn’t explain my point or it is hard for you guys to get the point. From Turkish point of view, Armenian question was resolved a century ago right. Armenians do not occupy any place in the turkish agenda except trying to stop the useless law in USA every year.I hope every country in the world recognize this. If turkey got advise that it will loose the case then it is good for you Armenians. Knowing that Turkey will loose the case must give you extra strenght to make your application. But again, Strangely you might say. Turkey shoudl do it. Yes If that court deliver a verdict in your favour or Turkey’s favour , I will repeat that like a parrot but If It is undisputable from Armenians point of view then why are you asking Turkey to accept that it was a genocide.My argumant is when that court delivers a verdict whatever it will be, We  have to accept the outcome and even Turkey might pay some monatary compansation.Please do not tell me again it is turkey’s responsibility to aply to the court. It is your problem not Turkey’s. In my opinion, you can not call this sort of events as genocide without the International court of Justice verdict. Because turks reject the label and they have very good arguments as well.If AW had allowed me to post what really happened you would see the turkish point of view about they call it propoganda and remove it

  205. avatar ragnar naess // August 16, 2011 at 1:52 pm // Reply

    Gor
    the Genocide convention does not distinguish between colonisers and indigenous people. It deals with “protected groups” (racial,ethnic, religious or national) and certain acts done with the aim of destroying “in whole, or in part” a  protected group “as such”.

  206. Gor jan- you hit the bull’s eye when you said “is this the limit of Turkish Mental capabilities”… That is EXACTLY what is going on here… These people have no extensive education. their daily news come from television.. what they hear is what they know.. They have NO BRAIN of theirs… THey are like catle and their govt is their pastor…. why do you think they repeat the same BS as their govt.. why do you think they deny everything that their govt denies.. they are fed this BS for such a long time, that their brain works not on intelligence, individuality, compassion, understanding but machine driven propaganda..they are like zumbies….

    It is sad truly sad…

    We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal.

    You should be very proud of this Monastras.. This demonstrate the primative and barbaric traits still present in your denialists…you and  Necati are prime candidates of that….  we are not making up these things.. you denialists openly confessing with your stupid comments… but we can’t expect more than that…

    Mina, a Turkish woman has more balls than you Monastras so no matter how much you try to put her down by saying she grabbed an Armenian as he husband, she remains a better person than you… 

    Gayane
     

  207. Ragnar- why don’t you just for once tell us what EXACTLY you want to accomplish here? Your confused, enigma presence on these pages does not benefit  anyone but yourself..I understand you are thirsty of information and you being here you gather material for your so called book.. us.. however, as a professor or a researcher (as you claim to be) you need to go to archives of NON-Turkish govts and individuals and not jump in into such discussions as this.. obviously there is alot of good data on these pages alone but unfortunately you can’t quote anyone on these pages for private research purposes.. so i don’t know why you are here… and please don’t tell me about such BS as oh i want to understand, i am working on mutual conversation.. i am doing this and that….

    You are as confused as a lost Turk living in Turkey… but at least they have an excuse.. i don’t know what is your excuse…..

    Thank you

    Gayane        

  208. Monastras,what is exactly your goal to achieve?If you couldn’t do it by Genocide…

  209. avatar ragnar naess // August 16, 2011 at 2:59 pm // Reply

    gayane
    I must admit I am frustrated by you. I tried to explan something when you asked, but you do not comment on my answer. In a discussion in working life or in a school, or in any other normal setting this would not work. But it apparently does work in AW? I tried to repeat something about words having different meanings which is a clue to my  point of view, but you make no comment to this. I am also wondering about monastras, Avery and gor. Are these the fights Turks and Armenians love to engage in on the pages of AW?

  210. Ragnar-  I am sorry… ohhh so sorry that I am frustrating you.. if you are frustrated then I am wayyyyyyyyyyyy past that but i don’t complain do i? :). we have asked you million times what  your intentions are on these pages and all we got was confused, messed up, two sided answers.. and frankly my dear I don’t give a damn that you are getting frustrated..all i care is for you to be honest with yourself and to others….

    Sorry for the blunt response Ragnar but you have overextended your stay … not that we don’t want you joining us, it is just we are tired of your games.. period…

    Have a good day sir..

    MJM is smart not to deal with you anymore… and he did warn me….

    Gayane       

  211. avatar Necati Genis // August 16, 2011 at 3:27 pm // Reply

     Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)
    Even though you mention my name  in your every other post, i will keep silence until You or AW invites me back to  commenthere in AW .

     You have recently, for the last 2-3 days seem so different again. Looks someone else is using your KB. I  am used to hear this jargon  like “More balls, no brain, zumbies”, from “someone” else , but  i am disappointed to hear from you. I would take the old Gayane if asked.
     This was good one for Vanoush: “i read the 300,000 Churches from an article written by a high ranking Armenian Apostolic priest.”   and made me smile for the first time after a looong boring day.  Thanks.

    Actually i had read it before and made a small math for not area but “church per Armenian”…However, the result  was not as funny as yours , Monastras.

    A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks.

  212. avatar ragnar naess // August 16, 2011 at 3:32 pm // Reply

    My friend Gayane, I feel sad if some Armenians cannot say more to the cruel ethnic cleansing of Turks than “these things happen”. It plays right into the hands of the nationalist Turks who will love to depict the Armenians as people who do not care about humanism but only about themselves. These Turks are also shrugging their shoulders at the Armenian genocide and saying “these things happen”. It is sad when peoples who experienced so much awful suffering belittle the sufferings of each others. But the clue lies in the undignified competition for victim status behind the idea of  the “worst possible crime”. Then it becomes imperative to deny Turks the status of victims of genocide. My point is that one must recognise the suffering of others, even criminals and colonisers, otherwise one dilutes the humanistic message which is universal. Inncent Turkish villagers did not deserve to die in 1877-78. When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder. And he holds that “this has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide”. Well, the theme was the criteria for genocide, which gor apparenlty is not able to remeber….   Lastly:Why am I here? To learn about Armenians, how you think. If I didnt I would miss a very important ingredient in my understanding of the situation.But will you ever understand me, Gayane, if you are not able to comment on anything I say!
     

  213. Ragnar you said the following: obviously there is no winning with you….

    I tried to repeat something about words having different meanings which is a clue to my  point of view,– NO EXTRA, DIFFERENT or ALIEN MEANING WHEN IT COMES TO THE WORD GENOCIDE… RAGNAR… do you appreciate the fact that Genocide is Genocide? and THIS IS what we have been repeating over and over and apparently you are not getting it… save me your logistics and scientific explanations.. i honestly do not find them attractive nor useful… only to you they are.. who are you representing ..??? who are you to discredit all those who already said it was a Genocide… Go think about that.. don’t ask someone who had family members who directly were impacted by this Genocide, who had family members who devoted THEIR ENTIRE ORPHAN LIFE to find and reunite all the other orphans left behind after this Genocide….you are asking me to give a better meaning or some other explanation of the word??? ARE YOU SERIOUS???? 

    I am also wondering about monastras, Avery and gor. Are these the fights Turks and Armenians love to engage in on the pages of AW?

    Please do not mix and match my friends, Avery and Gor with likes like Monastras and Turks who are likeminded..I see him very primative and barbaric minded… and he does not deserve to be limped alongside with such intelligent and educated people such as Avery and Gor.. You better think twice before you write something.. because obviously you are not reading what Avery and Gor are saying and why they are saying it… I know this may sound weird to you Ragnar but we are not fighting…. we are debating and discussing and shutting up the denialists from their continued distraction of the truth.. HUGEEEEEEE difference between fighting and discussing/ debating and challenging.. Hopefully that helped to clearify some matters.. 

  214. Yeah, ragnar naess.   Armenians have no just cause to fight for. Didn’t you know? They just ‘love’ to engage in a fight with the Turks just for a fun of it.  How about you? Why do you raise in these pages? Because you love ‘dialogues’ that supply ideas for your book or because you love doing linguistic gymnastics with the word ‘genocide’? Or both?

  215. Mr. Naess:
     
    People here are very polite towards you (except me), and they indulge you out of respect – despite your transparent attempts to deceive and divide, under the ridiculous cloak of ‘discussion’. Others more sophisticated and subtle than you have tried: it is not working – it will never work.
     
     
    Myself and my fellow Armenians are not engaged in a, quote, ‘fight’.
    And we don’t  ‘love engaging in’  fights. All of us have much better things to do with our lives and time.
    But as I have said before: it is like going to the dentist; not pleasant, but necessary.
     
     
    Read the level of discourse on these pages, the deep knowledge and high-level of intellect  of Armenian posters here (except yours truly: I am a dirty, low-brow street fighter from a rough neighborhood in Yerevan  called  Կոնդ), and compare that to Turk posters @TodaysZaman and @Hurriyet.
     
     
    What myself, Gor, and many of  our compatriots  are engaged in is information warfare: Turks, Azeri-Tatars, and their Turcophile friends and Agents are engaged in a relentless campaign of dissemination of Anti-Armenian disinformation throughout the blogosphere. As long as they do that, we have no choice but to counter. All of us have other things to do, most of us have full time jobs, bills to pay, etc.
    But our brothers and sisters in Armenia and Artsakh are in danger: we have to be on watch  watch their back.
    It is somewhat similar to a courtroom trial: allegations and falsehoods presented by the opposing side – if left  unchallenged – give the impression to the “Jury” that they are truths. You can guess who the “Jury” might be in our case.
     
     
    You guys keep insulting our intelligence by your juvenile attempts to convince us to engage in debates, dialogues, discussions, blah, blah, blah,…
    Read the posts again: NOBODY here is buying it.
     
    Are we supposed to just get along with Anti-Armenian Denialists here ?
    Are you kidding ?

  216. avatar ragnar naess // August 16, 2011 at 4:05 pm // Reply

    well, Avery, gor and Gayane, I wish you luck as ambassadors of the Armenian cause, but….

  217. ragnar naess,   first and foremost, the genocide convention does not apply to the expulsion and atrocities against Turks in Bulgaria and the Balkans so it can distinguish between colonizers and indigenous people. The genocide convention cannot apply to each and every human atrocity. If it could, we would have ‘genocides’ all over the globe irrespective whether killings of the people occurred as a result of just or unjust wars, invasions, occupations, colonization campaigns, or a murder on a street. There is also no such thing in the definition of genocide, as per 1948 UN Convention, as “protected groups”. Article II clearly states that genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. No “protected groups”, sorry. Atrocities against indigenous peoples throughout centuries by the Turks and atrocities against Turks during their expulsion from the Balkans, which Turks invaded and colonized, and the government-planned and executed campaign of deliberate physical extermination of Armenians as a race are two divergently different instances. Nazi Germans suffered great loss of life during the Stalingrad and Kursk campaigns on the Russian soil that they occupied in WWII. Go ahead and characterize this as ‘genocide’ and see what Russians and Allies will say in response. Don’t you get the point?

  218. “When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder.” 
     
    ragnar naess,   you owe me an apology. I never uttered such words. If you refer me to any such words in my comments, I’ll take my words to you back. If you won’t, then you’ll apologize for misrepresenting my comments. Fair deal?

  219. Necati Genis:      —-“Hayturks” is a product of your Turkish imagination or you might have smoked something really strong in a third-class bazaar in Constantinople to come up with such idiotic mix? When Hays were on the world map creating Indo-European civilization, Turks were non-existent. Only in the 11th century AD Seljuk Turks abandoned their sh**holes in Mongolian steppes and around the mountains of Altay and emerged as nomadic conquerors (not builders or creators) on the maps. Therefore, my simple question to you: how the name of a noble people can merge in some made-up term with a barbarian one?

  220. NEcati— obviously you people are very very slow to understand..but not blaming you.. it is not yourfault.. it is just the genetics.. you know.. too sad..

    You said..
    Necati Genis
    August 16, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)
    Even though you mention my name  in your every other post, i will keep silence until You or AW invites me back to  commenthere in AW .
    You have recently, for the last 2-3 days seem so different again. Looks someone else is using your KB. I  am used to hear this jargon  like “More balls, no brain, zumbies”, from “someone” else , but  i am disappointed to hear from you. I would take the old Gayane if asked.
      This was good one for Vanoush: “i read the 300,000 Churches from an article written by a high ranking Armenian Apostolic priest.”   and made me smile for the first time after a looong boring day.  Thanks.
    Actually i had read it before and made a small math for not area but “church per Armenian”…However, the result  was not as funny as yours , Monastras.
    A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks.

    We told YOU many times to dissapear did we not??? Why are you still here?? So why are not silent?? You posting does not tell me that.. is it because your Turkish friends on Turkish sites are not as welcomed and responsive to you?/ Do you have disorder where you NEED or WANT attention??? 

    And you by calling us HyeTurks tells us nothing but hatred toward us..  how primative of you…lol I laugh at your comments…LOL

    Gayane      

     

  221. WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.. Ragnar I thought you being a researcher and a professor, you would be much more in keen with the information provided to you on these pages… vs Necati or Monastras but you are on the same boat..

    YOU keep repeating the same thing over and over and Gor and Avery gave you specifics and detailed information WHY your below argument is without grounds…you said

    My point is that one must recognise the suffering of others, even criminals and colonisers, otherwise one dilutes the humanistic message which is universal.

    I say you have missed, you are absolutely missing and no doubt, you WILL miss the point.. give it up…

  222. Asa Karo jan.. asa.. apres.. shat siretsi qo gratsa…:)

    Gor jan- Xosq chka .. brilliant…

    Avery jan- Excellent… Qefs galisa vor kartum em qo gratsnera..:)

    I guess I have been dirty and rude and bad to our guests… :( what shall we do??? .. i hope they forgive us (tear coming down my eye)…  

    Ragnar- you are leaving already?? not again!!!!!.. you always do this sir.. you come in here with your blown up attitude then once we put a hole in your bubble, you leave… is that how you work??? ehhhh.. Ragnar Ragnar.. it is soooo obvious that there is no winning when it comes to the truth and justice will alwas prevail… and in your case, we always find holes in your logic and when you see there is no where o run anymore, you leave the pages.. hope you got more material for your book but i doubt even the world’s material will not change you…  

    Gayane

  223. Ms/Mr  KARO,

    Hayturk is not a race i created in my mind. It is a result of a survey proven with  scintific searches. 

    And what is wrong with being brothers rather than enemies ?  Karo, My brother .

    Ms Gayane,

    You know, i like you Armenians very much ,no matter which hysteric feelings you have for us Turks. And i know you Hays also like Us Turks appearently  because many of you visit Turkish news papers everday. NO?  

    or is it a Stockholm syndome ?
     

  224. Necati- you trying to be a smart a*($(#*$(*#(*(#*$(#*$ with your sarcastic tone makes no difference… what Karo said was legit.. what you say is not legit… so keep mumbling your sarcastic posts.. no one cares.. and do you mind sharing that survey of yours that proven the Hayturk is a race with scientific searches please… ohhhh can’t wait.. sooo excited…

    Oh Necati- It is not the love for you denialists that we visit the Turkish sites, it is because we need to stop your denialists spreading lies and mis information… so keep dreaming…  but know this: WE WILL CONTINUE to visit your sites just to make sure we shut denialist up right on their track… you can count on that… oh you are speaking of hysteric feelings?? LOL you should not talk… you are border line hysteric…you can’t leave this dicussion because you are obsessed.. you can’t handle the truth and all you want to do is inject your ugly truth but guess what??? ain’t working… .. so first look at yourself and then call my friends hysteric people….

  225. Necati Genis, mr or mrs, doesn’t matter…

    What survey? The one that speculates that because of mass rape, forced marriages, enslavement in filthy Turkish harems, forced conversion to Islam, or Turkification out of fear, some segment of modern-day Turks might have noble Armenian genes? And you think there’s nothing wrong in such distasteful deeds of your forefathers?
     
    I’m not your ‘brother’, don’t give me this cheap Turkish flattery. Your brothers are tribes residing in Central Asian steppes and on the mountains of Altay in Mongolia. By the way, how do Turks understand brotherhood? Is mass murdering innocent people, torturing and mutilating them, raping their women, daughters, and sisters, burning and burying them alive considered a ‘brotherly’ attitude with the Turks?
     
    You don’t want us to be enemies? Fine. Then offer apologies for the genocide of Armenians!

  226. Monastaras,

    Let me hepl you to understand why so far we have not gone to international court.
    What’s the rush? Are we in a hurry?? Absolutle not.

    The longer it takes the bigger our demands will get. MAybe 50 years ago Turkey could have get away by just appologizing for Genocide.  Not anymore Monastras.  It is not about recognizing or oppologizing anymore.  It is about WESTERN ARMENIA. 

    Do yo get it??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

  227. Necati,

    re.  Hayturk is not a race i created in my mind. It is a result of a survey proven with  scintific searches. 

    You must have a hell of a stomach for such an appetite. 
    Wouldn’t it solve all the problems Necati? Think about it. HAYturks.

    Finaly some Turks found a way to legitimize not only their existence but also their birthcertificates by calling themselves “Hayturks”.  

    I guess next step should be claiming that TORK ANGEGH and TARKU belong to pantheon of ancient turkish gods.   

    Wouldn’t you Necati wish to recognize ARmenian Genocide in return for being recognized as HAYturk by us??  Keep on dreaming amigo.
     

  228. Ms.  Gayane, I will keep dreaming.

    Karo, I will find the link  to the search.

    AR, What do you mean ” western Armenia” ?  Oktemberyan, Artashat  and Yerevan ?

  229. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 16, 2011 at 6:32 pm // Reply

    “And i know you Hays also like Us.”
    necati, history is part of current reality. Those
    who ignore their history are not living in the real world. See definition of
    the word “Turk” in Webster Dictionary. It describes Turks as a cruel, brutal and domineering person. Cruelty and… are built in your DNA. Once upon of the time, an Armenian boy was sitting on the one of
    the sidewalks of Istanbul [islombol] learning Armenian language. Red Sultan noticed him. Approached
    the young boy and asked him, what he was up to? The Armenian boy responded that
    he is learning Armenian Language. The Red Sultan asked the boy why he needs to
    learn Armenian Language? No one has right to speak any other language except
    Turkish. The boy responded that he is devoted Christian and he might go to haven
    after his death. The Red Sultan told the boy, you might go to hell then what?
    the boy responded that if that happens, he knows already how to speak Turkish! So
    my friend now you know your destiny. Keep practicing Turkish Language. Believe
    it or not I am learning Turkish because I believe one must know his brother’s language!

  230. ” Believe it or not I am learning Turkish because I believe one must know his brother’s language!”

    Papken,

    Why not come to Turkey? We are happy here with our Armenian brothers.And they are doing pretty good  . you can see many journalist, Artist, composer and so on  in Istanbul.
    Dont care  all hatred here in AW.You will see there is no problem here in Turkey for Hays.. And you will find many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest.

    About that Red one, i do not want to make comment because in the past there happened some  bad things not only in Ottoman Empire but also in other countries.

    You are always Welcome to Turkey.

    Note: I made a search in AW for the DNA link…but…for some reason it is lost..maybe i missed. I will find it tomorrow. Now it is too late My brothers..Have a nice day/night.

  231. Before i go  to bed,

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/turk?show=0&t=1313539014

    Could you give me your link ?

  232. Necati,

    re.   AR, What do you mean ” western Armenia” ?  Oktemberyan, Artashat  and Yerevan ?

    Nope!  Oktemberyan, ARtashat and Yerevan are in CENTRAL ARMENIA.  

    You have any other questions? Don’t hesitate, bring them on!
     

  233. Necati-  Are you someone living in Turkey??  What is the  level of your education? I am sorry but how you put your thoughts and sentences together are simply childlike.. it reads just like if it was a child who wrote it.. very incoherent…I wonder sometimes how people with your mental capability has the audacity to come here and teach Armenians something… Your best bet is to continue to dream like you agreed.. because besides that I doubt you will get anywhere….sorry for being to abrupt…

    I am sorry Necati– would you give us some statistics where you claim

     And you will find many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest

    Are you trying to lie to yourself or are you completely in ignorance about Armenians being pretty good in Turkey.. You must have been smoking the hookah too long “my brother”.. (i put that in quotes because i don’t see you as my brother… i am just pointing out how ridiculeous you sound when you use such words …

    You and gazillion of you don’t measure up to one Avery.. thank your lucky stars that you even have the honor to be on the same pages and reading his own written comments………p

    Gayane

  234. avatar ragnar naess // August 17, 2011 at 2:42 am // Reply

    Gor: I wrote yesterday:  If one looks at the way the ICTJ phrased it, the criteria they used,  it is by the way very hard to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria or the Circassians in the Caucasus also suffered genocide. Unquote.
    Gor, true what you said was: No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless.unquote.

    But i believe ,my challenge to you is still there. the reactionary Turks, when asked about the Armenian fate will say: No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless.unquote. Now the situation has some differences if we talk about a comparison of Armenians and Turkish Bulgarians/bulgarian Turks. However, remember that we are talking about the suffering of innocent civilians. If the Cossacks, the Russian army and the Bulgarian bands had simply been concerned with the Ottoman army, I could understand you. By the way, maybe you forgot to comment on the Circassians?
    And please do not answer except by looking at the reasoning in the ICTJ and try to fit in other names of groups that were killed or destroyed in another way, not  necessarily the whole group, as you knwo very well.

  235. avatar ragnar naess // August 17, 2011 at 2:49 am // Reply

    No Gayane, I am not leaving the AW, but possibly I may leave you as a discussant because I see nowhere that you relate to what I actually say. As you see, gor relates to someting I said and he was right in correcting me. This is my idea of dialogue, and the idea of dialogue in the civilized world. I am not critical of all you say, just as Boyajian once said: Gayane, sometimes you can be so funny. I agree. But I’d like you to be more discussant ans less cheer-leader from time to time. Best wishes from your friend Ragnar. I will concentrate on following up Boyajian’s invitation about what to DO to obtain justioce for Armenians. I already presented some points….. 

  236. avatar Necati Genis // August 17, 2011 at 7:47 am // Reply

    AR,

    I checked all the maps in internet but all says what i say..Could you please give me an official link ?

    Anyway, i found more interesting one , written by a group of  Armenian  scientists.

    Here :

    Thursday, December 24, 2009

    Cansu ÇAMLIBEL
    YEREVAN – Hürriyet
    Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities. European politicians, who have supported the recent normalization efforts, will also back the project, they say

    While Ankara and Yerevan struggle to ease long-standing tension that has divided the two neighbors for years, a discovery about genes appears to remind everyone how close the two nations actually are.

    Armenian scientists said they observed high genetic matching between the two nations during their research on leukemia.

    “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other.” Savak Avagian, director of Armenia’s bone marrow bank, said in an interview with daily Hürriyet.
    Calling on his Turkish colleagues to examine the genetic similarities of the two nations in addition to asking for funds from the European Union, Avagian said he believes European politicians, who have supported the recent normalization efforts between Turkey and Armenia, would also back the project.
    Genetic research in 1998 also supported the Armenian scientists’ findings. A project titled “The Genetic Relations between Mediterranean Communities,” prepared by three Spanish scholars from the molecular biology division of Complutense University in Madrid, defines the Turks and Armenians as two branches with the same genetic origin.
    However, Avagian said few people know the genetic similarities between Turks and Armenians. “The high ratio that we observed in bone marrow matching supports our thesis. I am sure everybody will be surprised when they hear this scientific truth.”
    Marrow cooperation
    The Armenian Marrow Bank has 15,000 Armenian donors in its records and is cooperating with 59 other banks through the World Marrow Donor Association.
    Mihran Nazeretian, chief doctor of the bank, defined the institution’s mission as trying to “discover whether there is an equivalence of cells between Armenian donors and a patient living elsewhere in the world.”
    “The patient’s ethnic background, citizenship, or political and religious views are not important at all,” Nazeretian said, signaling his willingness to cooperate with Turkish marrow banks.
    Avagian said he visited Turkey in 2005 and met with the executives of marrow banks in both Ankara and Istanbul with an offer of a joint project. But Turkish officials were not interested in Avagian’s offer and applied alone for EU funds on marrow research. In the end, their request was rejected.
    Noting the more convenient atmosphere between Turkey and Armenia, Avagian said: “If we knock on the doors of the European Union together, they would consider our request twice. Now, there is a political motivation, too. The bloc has already voiced support for the normalization talks between the two nations and I bet many politicians would support such medical research.”
    Nazeretian said they would provide marrow without question if a Turkish patient would match with one of their Armenian donors.
    The doctor told of his experience with Turkish patients, saying: “From Armenia, we found 43 matches with the bank in Istanbul and five with the one in Ankara and we made immediate inquiries. However, nobody responded. Unfortunately none of those matching results led to a marrow transplant.”
    Nazeretian said there might be various reasons for the failure. “Maybe the patient found another donor in Turkey or the patient was lost before our response,” he said.
    He also said there have been Armenian matches for Turks living in Germany as well but that no matches had resulted in transplants. “My only wish is for a transplant between an Armenian donor and a Turkish patient to happen one day,” he said.

    Now all i can say is : sometimes brothers make fight eachother at home..but still brothers.The next day they will forget it. Dont you think so my Hayturk brothers ?

  237. Gayane,

    I know we have time difference .So you must have been  sleeping  at this time. But when ever i write some here in AW you reply in 1 min.

    You never sleep ?  Sleep is good for women.dont forget to sleep 8 hours a day.

  238. oh..My Education ?

    Not too high.I am one of the most uneducated people in Turkey.

     You know my teacher in first school was getting almost crazy everyday because of me.Fortunately  She was appointed to somewhere else…

  239. Monastras,read the treaty of Sevres:
    Quote
    The punishment of the crime of genocide – whether called exterminations, evacuations, mass atrocities, annihilation, liquidations or massacres – as well as the obligation to make restitution to the survivors of the victims, were envisaged by the victorious Allies of the First World War and included in the text of the Peace Treaty of Sèvres of 10 August 1920 between the Allies and the Ottoman Empire (2). This Treaty contained not only a commitment to try Turkish officials for war crimes committed by Ottoman Turkey against Allied nationals (3) , but also for crimes committed by Turkish authorities against subjects of the Ottoman Empire of different ethnic origin, in particular the Armenians, crimes which today would be termed genocide, and would also fall under the more broadly generic term “crimes against humanity”.Unquote
    Already Turkey is charged.

  240. Gayane, thanks for watching my back.

    Don’t worry though: when  certain Turks, hysterical and foaming at the mouth, call me ‘radical extremist’, I feel a great sense of accomplishment. 

    “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Barry Goldwater 1964.
     

  241. ragnar naess,   I will readily refute your artificially cooked-up ‘comparison’ between the expulsion of and associated atrocities against the occupying Bulgarian Turks (there is no such a thing as ‘Turkish Bulgarians’) and the premeditated, government-planned and executed campaign of race annihilation of Armenians, whenever you accept that you misrepresented me by putting in my mouth the words I never uttered, namely: “Gor says:these things happen’”.  I missed the Circassians by accident, I admit, because I concentrated on Bulgarian Turks, but you conveniently avoided an apology for ascribing to me the words I never said.  Whenever you take them back, we’ll go on.

  242. VTiger, I agree with your thinking on the Treaty of Sevres.  It clearly indicts the Turks of crimes against humanity and intended to extract a punishment/reparation from Turkey.  Whether or not it was ratified, the historical record of a determination of guilt exists. 

  243. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 17, 2011 at 9:37 am // Reply

     ..many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest.”

    Necati, you missed my points. First of all, the reason Avery and all real Armenians, including me, feel to you and your so called “many Armenians” is that we have determined to fight for
    justice. We know for sure that justice is our side. One day we would have our day. People like Avery live forever. Our future generations will read these comments and they will discover themselves who they are. I am planning to return to my Western Armenia not Turkey.
    See you in Western Armenia!

  244. Hi Boyajian, The Sevres Treaty not only it still exists, but it is a very legitimate highly regarded document, because it was signed by the most advanced and powerful European nations as well as Russia and most importantly it was also signed by Turkey.

  245. Hi Papken, Avery has the blood of our powerful, highly intelligent and legendary forefather and the leaders of our past; mind you we bear the same blood in our veins as well.  Something we could all be proud of in the memory of our grand past and until today my friend. 

    Tell my Papken, someone by the name of Vanoush jested with me recently, because I mentioned on a few of my posts earlier that we have had in the Turkish Republic a great many Churches, say about 300,000 of them.  I went along trusting the numbers with a high ranked priest’s writings on the web.  Then afterwards I checked the numbers with the above mentioned Churches and it was only in the thousands.  Do you or anyone in here kow the real number of the Armenian Churches plus the Monasteries in Turkey on or before 1915, or could it be that perhaps the high ranking priest was quoting the numbers of all the Christian Churches in Turkey before 1915 (including the Syriacs, Greeks, Pontiacs, Armenians and Assyrians)?  I’ll appreciate knowing the true facts so that I’ll know for sure.  Thanks.

  246. I made a typo above.  I meant to start with my post saying “Tell me Papken“.

  247. Hi Seervart, if you hear of any news or research related to the Treaty of Sevres please post it here.  I will do the same.  I would love to read any comments regarding its power and significance from a legal and historical perspective.  As I said above, the determination of Turkey’s guilt has already been made.  We need now to use every avenue available to us to receive our just compensation which I believe will strenghthen RA in the long run.  Turkey has an obligation to meet.

    I think it is fair to suggest that the Nuremburg Trials were built on the foundations first developed with the drafting of the Treaty of Sevres.

  248. thank you Papken.
    thank you Seervart (again).

    It’s an honor.  the same genes handed down to us all from our ancestors imperceptibly compel us all to do what  we do for our people. Some of us have more time to contribute than others;  some of us have more funds to contribute  than others: most important thing is that  we all participate in the effort to the best of our abilities.

    Just the same, I don’t consider what I do worthy of notice by my compatriots here: I am not on the LOC facing death every day from Azeri snipers, like our  Artsakhtsi men.

  249. VTiger

    Yes most poweful nations tried to impose this treaty on the Turks but The treaty of Sevres was the death warrant of the Turkish nation. That’s why the Turks screwed this pieces of paper and threw in the dust bin. Some posters in the Armenian media regularly quote this dead treaty. Bu they do not realize that this baby was dead  when born 

  250. Monastras,
    Remember that we are discussing International Court of Justice…Even if the Treaty of Sevres was not ratified it does not mean that the Ottomans did not commit the Genocide.
    Furthermore there are the court cases of the new Turkish republic against the Young Turks… the list goes on & on & I can carry on for pages & page… but I’m working to make a living at the same time… you google & read & it is enlightning if it interests you.
    As said before for us the Genocide is a fact & indisputable.If you have a problem with it you just push your government to apply to the ICJ.

  251. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 17, 2011 at 12:25 pm // Reply

    “..mind you we bear the same blood in our veins as well.
    Dear Seervart, of course I don’t mind. All of us who care about our national interests are real Armenians. I wrote “like Avery” not just Avery. All of you have the real Armenian blood. Yes Mernem jes ameneen hamar! Tser chave tough yes tanem. As to exact number of churches,
    I don’t know and I don’t know if any one knows yet. Soon a Ph.D. student will
    come up to correct answer. I am also looking for exact number and the name of
    our soldiers who died in World War I and II. My dream is to built a monument
    for them in every Armenian church. If any one of you are interested to work on
    this project let me know. As to Treaty of Severs, it is true that it is not
    part of international law, however, the crime against humanity committed by
    Ottomans has been admitted in this document. It is a confession of a criminal witnessed
    by very credible people. We need a national movement to create a core to
    enforce the charges brought against Turks. Eight years ago, I went to law
    school just to pursue this goal.

  252. Yes Boyajian, I will let you know if I hear anything about our rights of the Sevres Treaty of course.  You know a while ago, but not too long ago there was an article right in here in the AW about both the Sevres Treaty and I believe about the Wilson Arbitration Award as well.  I feel that there is a good possiblity that our leaders or at least some of our leaders they may be in the process of pursuing it.  I pray and hope that this would be right.  If it so, then surely in time we’ll hear about it.

    You are quite right, I mean when finally we do receive our just compensation from the Turks, it can only help a great deal and certainly not hurt both Armenia proper and Artsakh; as it is all interconnected and meshed together for our just cause.

  253. “That’s why the Turks screwed this piece of paper and threw in the dust bin.”
     
    Yes, otherwise Turks would have been held responsible for occupying the lands of native peoples and physically exterminating them in the last years of the Ottoman empire and during the first years of the Republican Turkey. By a sheer luck, namely: the emergence of the Bolshevik Russia in the early 1920s, to whom Mustafa Kemal first pledged allegiance and then screwed them in a typically Turkish sly way, Turks could preserve as much lands as possible from the crumbled Ottoman empire, already emptied from Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians in the acts of genocide. However, Woodrow Wilson’s Mandate on Armenia still exists and the 1923 Lausanne Treaty that was signed after the Treaty of Sèvres, has no Republic of Armenia as a signatory. After the demise in 1991 of the Soviet Union, which signed the Lausanne Treaty, the only treaty that bears official signatures of both Turkey and the Republic of Armenia is the Treaty of Sèvres. Therefore, by no means is this treaty “in the dust bin”. Unless you’re daydreaming, of course…

  254. Ragnar- you said this

    Gayane, sometimes you can be so funny. I agree. But I’d like you to be more discussant ans less cheer-leader from time to time.

    Of course I can be funny.. I deal with you clowns who clown yourselves on these pages and pretend you knowit all.. and I can’t help but be funny…:) Guess what??? Know it alls will get ridiculed if their arguments are ridiculeous to the core.. and you Ragnar present some outrageous and ridiculous arguments..Sometimes I wonder about you…especially when you give me advice..LOL . I am sorry and who are you to tell me what I can and can’t do??? I believe I am on OUR OWN ARMENIAN pages… it does say Armenian Weekly right?   Thanks for the advice but I would say stick to what you know best..and that is  ” How much can I confuse Armenians with my messed up ideas, throught processes, data…ect…ect..” 

    But I will take you advice and sleep on it because you took the time to write it…now a bit of advice from me…..take it or leave it…

    “Please make sure you use less google to educate yourself about my people, Genocide and Armenian History, and spend less time with your Turkish friends to gather up data for your book but spend more time in NON-Turkish govt offices and their archives, eye witnesses accounts, other publications written by NON- Turkish denialists..” you will see that it is a whole different world.. … … 

      I am sorry the Ambassador of Turkey, did not know we are required to have discussions with you..but do you mind telling my friends and everyone what you thought they were doing all this time??? (I won’t include myself because apparently I am not having a discussion with you)?? I guess they were just sitting around  dwindling their fingers right?? WRONG. You know what they were doing Ragnar??? They were trying to EDUCATE YOU… you yourself said you are not an expert and don’t know much about Armenians… but obviously you turned out to be a  bad guest.. because you have ignored, overlooked, mistook my friends attempts to give you PLENTY OF DETAILED and VERY ACCURATE information… and now YOU are telling ME and rejecting EVERYONE ELSE who DID give you GREAT discussions to be more discussant??? LOL  guess I have to turn the tables and tell you sir that you are hillarious…lol

    Ragnar… you do leave the pages once you feel defeated because every attempt you make you are shot down …and instead of embarassing yourself more, you feel it is necessary to bail out with such excuses… i need more time because i have so many projects going on.. i am working on a leaflet, I am having a hard time discussing with Gayane because she i just TOOOOOOOOOOO CHEERY and not discussant…. aggghhh.. so tired of your games Ragnar….but unlike you, I will not give up… even with my Cheerleader self….:)

    Have a good day sir…

    Gayane      

      

  255. Ragnar-  my friend asked you for an apology.. and yet to receive it… please be a man and apologize…

    ………When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder.”
     
    ragnar naess,   you owe me an apology. I never uttered such words. If you refer me to any such words in my comments, I’ll take my words to you back. If you won’t, then you’ll apologize for misrepresenting my comments. Fair deal?

  256. Apres Papken jan… I am absolutely interested in your project.. even though I work hard and not make enough money, I am always ready for my country… I would love to get yours, Avery, Seervart, Gor e-mail.. not sure what is the best to do that…

    Gor jan and Avery jan- thank you for sticking it to them… shat lav zgatsi…. 

    Seervart jan and Boyajian jan- yes dzes shat em sirum..:)    

    Gayane  

  257. You are welcomed Avery. You are well regarded here, not only by myself but many oterhs as well, because you are intelligent, patriotic, vigilant and you devote a great deal of your time setting the records straight with denialist Turks that lurks around on these columns.  And I must say I find our Gayane to be on the same page as you!

    Avery, You and I do not necessarily have to go and fight as our wonderful men of arms are doing it every day of their precious lives for the sake of our Artsakhian lands.  But enlightening people with your wisdom and your words, (Turks or otherwise) is a powerful thing too.  Don’t forget the power of words and of the mind.  Enthusing other Armenians and other people from various nationalities is a work of, «Հայապահպանում» as we say it in Armenian, and that is vitally important.

  258. Necati- thank you for thinking of my well being…but i have my family and my friends both on and off of these pages to do that.. so instead of writing dumb comments, why don’t you think about how you can apologize for you represent.. the biggest denialist…and acknolwedge that what your barbaric ancestors did was crime against humanity.. especially against my people….. maybe then I would think you truly care about me.. otherwise go back to your dream….. 

  259. I should also give as I have in the past great credit to our Gor and Boyajian also.

  260. VTiger

     I wonder why only two people answered my very crucial question. You and the other guy answered half heartedly and your answer was unconvincing and probably you didn’t believe what you said to me. Why will I push the turkish goverment to take the issu to the court while it isn’t my interest. It is your interest. Let me tell you an example right. I was working for a company in Turkey and was sacked unfairly. The company who sacked me didn’t take me to court to find out whether or not they are responsible for my dismissal. I had to go to court and made the company to  pay me for my  unfair dismissal.If you still pretend not to understand what I am saying. I can not help you 

  261.  Monastras—it is a mute point of explaining anything to you and your peanut gallery….

    But your crucial (but in reality a nonsense question) was answered many times.. you people are just tooo slow to understand and get something huh?  You must be because i don’t know how many times one need to repeat himself or herself… when you are a denialist, it is hard to get anything through the denialists head.. instead of playing a little sneak, why don’t you admit that deep down, you know the truth..you know everything that you currently have and enjoy are ALL DUE to those who were raped, barbarically murdered and marched to their own death… if your barbaric ancestors did not attempt to wipe out an entire race (Unlucky to them, their attempt failed even though we lost a great deal of human life), you woulld not have a tongue 10 ft long.. it is because you sit on other’s wealth and riches… if we took all that away, what will remain is what your ancestors started with.. NOTHING of their own…jus nomadic and poor group of humans…. now you get it??? 

    It is time for your denialists and your ugly govt to man up and fess up and pay up and move on…..

    Gayane

  262. Necati and all other denialists— just yet another example to show how much love and friendship your Turkish brethren illustrate?? Pay attention to the bolded sections… I say you denialists are all without a doubt danger to society especially Armenians.. you will take the first chance to do the same as your ancestors did to mine… oh another note… guess your denialists posts do get published.. but I have yet to see mine on your anti-Armenian Turkish sites.. .guess AW is more open minded, and freedom of speech advocate than yours.. read and divulge yourself in your brethren sub-tribunal way of thinking… not too ar off than yours..

    Mark
    August 16, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    I know this will never make it up to your commnet box, but i try anyways,
    You Armenians should go one and get a life and move on, this issue is a loosing battle for Amenians and if you are looking to future saying Turks have enemies and one day the whole World unite and do things to Turks as they do to Iraq, Libya and other places and once more us Armenians will get an other chance to stab the Turks from back and revolt inside like 1914 this time join other forces to claim land, you are dreaming,no conventional weapons would break the will of the Turkish people, as you will see very soon PKK and its suporters will be put to test and if it creates street by street figthing PKK suporters in Turkey will be marched to north Iraq or Syria like Armenians in 1915, and if you think that neclear stand off will put Turkey in termoil think again Turkey has nuclear weapons, and if lets say your dream will show his ugly head, then when you put the mouse in the corner you know what he does to cat, total nuclear blow up , so cut the this non sense and be truthful, and balme your grandperents for starting the figth by taking arms against the host nation with its enemies and doomd the rest of the innocent armenians, take responsibility no nation will denger their national unity and if you do not belive me go watch in Netfelix, Gellipollu, and see how Turks fight for more than a year defated England,French new zeland and Australia and african asian mercineries under what conditions, than you will understand what will become of your young generation of incase of new war starts,
    please get over this and stop forming your fragile union under the hatred of Turks and making ANCA employed with this non sense will get you nothing but more distruction
    Thank you and 4 Armenian young wonderful students works for me and I love every single one of them, but this issue is wrong to fight over   

  263. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 17, 2011 at 2:42 pm // Reply

    “..The company who sacked me didn’t take me to court ..
    Monastras, If you had defamed your company, it would have a valid cause of action against you. Here, according to Turks, Armenians are accusing whole nation for a heinous crime who claim in fact there were Turks that were murdered by Armenians. If it is false accusation, then Turks can take Armenians to court for defamation. Now, if you cannot understand what I am talking about, then I cannot help you.

  264. Necati,

    Instead of cheking out maps on the internet, you should ckeck out Mongolians and find out about their looks and appearances.  Then you should ask yourself: How did the Turks, the descendants of asiatic Mongolians, turned out to look like ARmenians?

    re.  Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities.

    Necati, pay attention please.  The ARmenian scientist was trying to be not only academicaly correct but also ethicaly.  But if you want to be correct both academicaly and historicaly, then the only correct way of saying it is: Turks are geneticaly linked to ARmenians.  That will leave us with no unaswered qustions.  

    ARmenians look almost the same as we were in 10,000 BC  ;)

    ALSO,

    If you so like researching maps on the internet I will attach a link for your enlightenment.  Make sure you watch it all and again pay attention at the end to the oldest map that has been unearthed so far. (from 600 BC).  
    Oh yeah, also, ENJOY THE MUSIC Necati.

    http://youtu.be/Rws5YxPc16Y

      

  265. Necati,

    Instead of cheking out maps on the internet, you should ckeck out Mongolians and find out about their looks and appearances.  Then you should ask yourself: How did the Turks, the descendants of asiatic Mongolians, turned out to look like ARmenians?

    re.  Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities.

    Necati, pay attention please.  The ARmenian scientist was trying to be not only academicaly correct but also ethicaly.  But if you want to be correct both academicaly and historicaly, then the only correct way of saying it is: Turks are geneticaly linked to ARmenians.  That will leave us with no unaswered qustions.  

    ARmenians look almost the same as we in 10,000 BC  ;)

    ALSO,

    If you so like researching maps on the internet I will attach a link for your enlightenment.  Make sure you watch it all and again pay attention at the end to the oldest map that has been unearthed. (from 600 BC).  
    Oh yeah, also, ENJOY THE MUSIC Necati.

    http://youtu.be/Rws5YxPc16Y

  266. @Mark, No this issue of pursuing our rights to have the Turkish belligerent government to accept their wrongs of denying the Armenian Genocide and subsequently pay reparations to Armenians that it is due to them; it will never be over.  Armenians all over the world will see to it that our rights are paid in full.   Don’t you ever forget that.

  267. Boyajian,   there is an interesting discussion about the Treaty of Sèvres posted on Youtube, but it’s in Eastern Armenian. The discussants are Dr. Ashot Melkonian, Director of the History Department, National Academy of Sciences of Armenia and political analyst Ara Papian. Here’s the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePtr5_vrtlc&feature=related

  268. Papken: ‘…. If any one of you are interested to work on this project let me know.’
    Count me in. I’ll contribute time, effort, funds (…most of the available funds go to Armenia and Artsakh, but I can usually scrounge up some more for a good cause)
    I have asked Admin to give you my email.
     
    Gayane: … I would love to get yours, Avery, Seervart, Gor e-mail..’
    I have asked Admin to give you my email.

  269. Avery jan-  I got it .. Thank you :)  I have asked mine to be given to you and Papken, Gor and Seervart as well..

    Good one AR.. Apres.. Yes Monastras loves to use the internet for his purposes.. like translating Armenian into English, looking up maps that he still can’t find… so not surprised that he is lost in the whole information technology world…lol thank you for providing the links……
    I would also love to have your e-mail as well…

    Astvats mer het…

    Gayane     

  270. Thank you Gor.  I will find someone to help me understand what I miss.

  271. Gor jan, Fortunately I understand Eastern Armenian as well and I am now listening to it.  Thank you very much for the info.

  272. Avery jan, Yes kezi e-mail ghergetsi ays yerego verevi Gayaneyi hartsov khentrem.

  273. Papken Hartunian,

    Count me in!

    GAYANE jan, you will have it shortly. 

  274. Gayane jan, Averyn kez gugharge shudov jan.

  275. Dears Gor and Boyajian,

    Here’s a link of the entire document of the “Treaty of Peace Between The Allied & Associated Powers and Turkey Signed at Sevres – August 10 , 1920
    Note
    : Includes Peace Treaty of Versailles 28 June, 1919.

    http://groong.usc.edu/treaties/sevres.html

    You’ll find more sites in here:

    Section I, Articles 1 – 260 – World War I Document Archive

    Section II, Annex II, and Articles 261 – 433 – World War I Document archive.

  276. Boyajian, Pay special attention of the Sevres Treaty Link of Articles 88 to 93 and also to Article 145. 

    It is noteworthy that although the Sevres Treaty hasn’t been legally imposed on Turkey, nevertheless all the trio major powers: England, France and Italy acknowledged the calamities that befell Armenians during 1915 and beyond by the turkish CUP and that’s why all three imposed onto the US and hence the Wilson Arbitration Award by President Woodraw Wilson was implemented, but unfortunately the Senate didn’t verify it.  However, the Turkish government accepted the borders of Armenia and Turkey of the Wilsonian Armenia at that time.  furthermore, until today the USA hasn’t and still does not accept Turkey’s borders as it stands today.  That is also a fact.

  277. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 17, 2011 at 10:48 pm // Reply

    “…no conventional weapons would break the will of the Turkish people,..

    Mark, remmber we are living in cyber age not in a conventional age. I promise you, one day when you open your laptop, it would blow up in your face following a message “I am an Armenian.”

       
      

  278. Boyajian jan.. if you don’t mind.. I would love to have your e-mail as well…

    Et dzevi menq bolorov karox enq irar het kapnvenq….

    AR jan- mersi.. looking forward to it..:)

    Gayane

  279. avatar Edward Demiraiakian // August 18, 2011 at 1:06 am // Reply

    Raffi
    I appreciate your enthusiasm and your efforts. Good luck with your endeavor.  I think that the church, schools and property documentation has been done already. However,  one issue has not been documented; and here it is: As you know, for hundreds of years, the Armenians were not alowed to bear arms. So when the new constitution was approved, and the wwI started the Armenians were instructed to register for the draft and inducted into the Turkish armed forces. The Armenian male population joined  with enthusiasm. All the military age men were in uniform.  Then, the CUP was able to take over and orderred the disarming and murder of the Armenian men in the military. I am sure that the archives, pay records, training rosters, are all available. If you want to compile a list, consider composing one of all the patriotic Armenians that had enrolled in the Ottoman military, that were subsequently murdered by their officers. That should be about the whole of draft age Armenian male population.  This dastardly act  alone should be a source of shame to the Turkish military. As a veteran, I am outraged by this cowardly crime.

  280. avatar ragnar naess // August 18, 2011 at 1:07 am // Reply

    gor, I apologize for mistakenly saying that you had said that “these things happen”. But you still fail to relate to the way ICTJ handled the question. If some people are invaders who came 500 years earlier is not relevant for the application of the Cenocide convention. Regarding subgroups, if the Bosniaks of Srebrenitsa and environs constitute part of a protected group, the Turks in bulgaria also does it. But I will not pester you with this if you are not interested.

  281. avatar ragnar naess // August 18, 2011 at 1:15 am // Reply

    gayane
    necati is trying to be nice and you answer in the most negative way. What kind of manners do you have? just pouring out negative characterizations….

  282. avatar ragnar naess // August 18, 2011 at 1:21 am // Reply

    Boyajian
    you suggested I should not focus on the quality of dialogue but insted talk about what to do to further justice. “Then lets take if from there” you said. I produced a long text. By the way I am wondering about the strategy of reclaiming churches. I now see that the main Armenian church in Diyarbakir/Dikranagert is being restored, but apparently not with Turkish money as was the case with Sourp Khatch. Do you know anything about it? Is the aim simply to restore churches or to have the Turkish government initiate a restoration campaign which they really should do?

  283. Monastras,from your given example what I understood is that yoiur ex-company = Turkey & you = Armenia/Armenian.I’m touched,you have grasped what it means to be a victim.

  284. Thanks Seervart and Gayane for your kindness.
     
    Ragnar, I see you offered an answer to my question.  You sure enjoy to argue!  You want Armenians to argue with Turks some more.   And you can be sure we will.   
     
    But as many here have tried to say to you before, Armenians feel insulted, irked at the suggestion that an historic fact has to be proven to the perpetrator nation.  It is admitting that Turks have succeeded at their game of diversion and denial and have turned a once known fact into a question.  It is more proof that evil abounds and dominates rather than goodness and fairness.  It is discouraging and we have a knee-jerk reaction against playing this denial game and giving credence to the unscrupulous liars.  And yet we do what we must, because we have no other choice.  But don’t expect to make friends with Armenians when we see you admiring this cheap Turkish carpet of lies and denial as if it even compares to the Armenian one woven of eye-witness accounts, Talaat’s and Ataturk’s own admissions, and internationally arbitrated determinations of guilt and punishment.  
     
    Your comment about the ‘cycle of violence’ is a odd.  It doesn’t support anything other than the idea that Turks were so bothered by losses in the Balkans that as a whole nation, they succumbed to mob mentality and savagely sought revenge upon innocent, unarmed people.  Usually it is the duty of government to prevent mob rule, but of course in this case, the government was the mob leader trying to win a ‘turf war.’  Is that what you meant, Ragnar?

  285. re:  gayane
    necati is trying to be nice and you answer in the most negative way. What kind of manners do you have? just pouring out negative characterizations….’

     
    By your leave, Gayane, I’ll retort to this post by Mr. Naess, since I am a little more familiar with the poster Necati Genis.
     
    Mr. Genis deserves no consideration  from any Armenian poster here.
    Mr. Genis:
    Has  insulted (personal  attack)  the honorable  editor of ArmenianWeekly on these pages.
    Has libeled Ms. Nanore Barsoumian of AW by falsely accusing her of things she has not written.
    Posts Anti-Armenian comments @TodaysZaman, e.g. advocating invasion of Artsakh aka Nagorno-Karabagh.
     
    Posts derogatory comments against Armenians @TodaysZaman, e.g. [(Necati@J.L Bonham Oh well, he is an Armenian. need to say more ?)
    (J.L Bonham , 10 August 2011 , 00:13
    I find the article very interesting….Mr. Esayan seems to be making a case to move Turkey back toward a religious based governing system, ie a Kalif)] (In reference to TodaysZaman columnist Mr. Markar Esayan.)
     
    Deliberately cuts-and-pastes small portions of posts – mine in particular – here and @TodaysZaman to create a false image of posters, the aim being to paint Armenians as bigots, and stir up hatred towards Armenians.
    There is a long list of his transgressions, but this is sufficient for now.
     
    So before you guys lecture us on anything, do your homework.
    We don’t get nasty with people for no reason. We are usually very polite and accommodating.  
    But if you guys keep pushing us, we gonna push back. Hard.

  286. Ragnar, patience is a virtue.  We Armenians are developing quite an art out of it.   But we have an advantage by virtue of the fact that we are such an ancient civilization.
     
    Also please read all of Necati’s comments and you will understand why Gayane does not read kindness in his words.  Sarcasm, racism, Turkish ‘politeness’, maybe.  Experience is the best teacher, wouldn’t you agree? 

  287. I saw necati’s comment on Today’s Zaman & what a cry baby he is.If he cannot stand the heat he should not participate.Be a man necati & face the consequences of your rhetorics.

  288. Avery, we are on the same wavelength again, but of course you are more thorough than me. As usual!

  289. ragnar naess,   I’d agree that if some people are invaders who came 500 years ago is not relevant for the application of the Genocide convention. Historically, the Turks in Bulgaria were descendants of Turkic invaders who came from Mongolian steppes through Asia Minor across the narrows of the Dardanelles and the Bosporus following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the early 15th century. What you appear to be missing is whether this people were subjected to deliberate extermination as a group or they became victims of atrocities during a war. In other words, as per the 1948 Genocide convention, whether it was a “deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.” You conveniently forget that atrocities against Bulgarian Turks were committed during the wars (Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 and Balkan Wars of 1912-1913) in which ethnic Turks were a warring side. As Russian forces and Bulgarian volunteers advanced in 1878 against the Ottoman Turks, they inflicted atrocities on the segments of local Turk population. Bear in mind that the Ottoman Turks have devastated Stara Zagora and the surrounding region, which provoked atrocities against ethnic Turks. The Ottoman army has also attacked Turk non-combatants and usied Turk refugees to shield their retreat. Even the infamous Justin McCarthy, who is known as having a pro-Turkish bias, admits that most of the ethnic Turks became victims of battle casualties and only then murders by Bulgarian and Russian troops. And, certainly, many Turks perished of hardship during their flight in war conditions. Balkan Wars of 1912-13, likewise, were wars during which the Balkan nations, Bulgarians included, carried out national liberation struggles against the Turks for the re-possession of the European territories of the Ottoman Empire that were invaded and colonized by the Turks. The wars resulted in war atrocities and the speedy expulsion of the Turks from occupied lands in Europe. Compare the atrocities against Turks who represented a warring side in the Russo-Turkish War and the Balkan Wars with the atrocities against Armenians who were not involved in any war, nor were anywhere near the war zones, and represented no warring side. In which instance, in your view, the “infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part” was deliberate and in which instance the infliction was not deliberate, i.e. war-related? Answer to this question will provide you with an understanding as to why the Genocide convention cannot be applied to Balkan Turks.

  290. Well said Gor jan.. Well said…

    Avery jan- thank you for replying to Ragnar..I will always be happy if you reply on behalf of me than someon like Karekin.. (sorry Karekin.. you yourself made yourself such)…Thank you for providing examples to demonstrate Necati’s just loving humility…(THE FRIENDLY and LOVING NECATI).. LOL I was laughing when I read Ragnar’s comment to me….

    Necati- i hope you get the point now.. Avery did a great job providing you examples.. maybe you are very bad reading between lines because Necati’s messages always have some sort of poison toward us ARmenians.. here are few other things he said.. maybe you can see the sarcasm in them.. or accordig to you.. he is trying to be genuine and nice… LOL funny indeed Ragnar.. I should suggest you be less funny and more real Ragnar…(took this line from you.. remember when you old me to be less Cheerleadry and more discussant?? Yeahh…

    1. Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)

    2. A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks

    3. You know, i like you Armenians very much ,no matter which hysteric feelings
    you have for us Turks. And i know you Hays also like Us Turks appearently
    because many of you visit Turkish news papers everday. NO? or is it a Stockholm syndome ?

    4.  Dont care all hatred here in AW.You will see there is no
    problem here in Turkey for Hays.. And you will find many Armenians naming “most
    of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest

    5. You never sleep ? Sleep is good for women.dont forget to sleep 8 hours a day

    These are JUST from these pages.. so please spare me Ragnar .. it is really cute that you are looking after your buddy but don’t baby him for the wrong reason.. i know he acts like a baby.. and you feel you have to act like his daddy.. hopefully the e-mail swap between you two happened maybe you can teach him how to communicate properly and with valid points vs with sarcasm, Anti-Armenian lingo, and just plain ” i am smarter than you people even with my primitative thinking” because if he does and if any one of you denialists do, as Avery said..we will push back and hard… hope you understand why i write the way i do now..  

    and to add extra bonus to the list of loving, caring, thoughtful that our Turkish posters love to indulge us is this from our own Monastras..

    Monastras
    Comment:
    Gayane,

    Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?

    We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal. 

     

         

  291. VTiger jan- you said it right.. I also read Necati’s comments on Turkish sites.. and they ain’t loving and nice … but then Ragnar does not know this much because he only visits our sites…right Ragnar?????

    Gayane

  292. Turkish war planes , tonight again,started  bombing  PKK camps in  Northern  Iraq..

  293. Necatik  —-Is there anything else that Turkey can do, except for bombing and mass murdering other nations?

  294. necati the cry baby,my innocent massacred forefathers spirits in heaven are smiling.Their curses before being butchered are coming true.

  295. My apologies– want to correct a name error.. In my above comment where i provided examples of Necati’s niceness, I meant to put Ragnar (addressing it to Ragnar and not Necati).. As Necati already knows what he said…

    Karo jan- exellent question…

    Gayane
     

  296. this time  with the support of long range artillary in Turkish side of Border..No sleep for PKK terrorists tonight…same as last…OMG..so noisy!

  297. Typical Turkish (mis)behaviour: PKK guerillas kill Turk troops in uniform who are out in the field hunting  for them (Kurds), and Turks respond by mass-bombing quote ‘PKK Camps’. If  Turks know where the PKK camps are, why don’t they helicopter-in special forces troops and do battle with PKK guerrillas right there ?
     
     
    The answer is they don’t know where PKK camps are. They are just blindly bombing areas where Kurds generally  live and probably just killing Kurd civilians. They’ll later claim they killed X number of ‘PKK terrorists’. They  will also claim the retaliation was total success. Same song and dance they’ve been doing for 30 years.
     
     
    On a side note: an interesting item not discussed widely. As the Hurriyet reported, the Turks that  were killed were special forces troops – the best of the best in any army. Here is the quote from Hurriyet: [“The soldiers were killed as a result of four mine explosions targeting special forces teams at two different points along the Hakkari-Çukurca road, the Hakkari Governor’s Office said in a statement. The attack also wounded 15 soldiers.”]
     
     
     I don’t know what kind of  troops were the previous 13 that were ambushed killed in battle with PKK a couple of weeks ago.
    The interesting item is that PKK had accurate intelligence that these guys (SF troops) were coming, they had intelligence which route they would most likely take, so they laid anti-personnel mines right there and set up a classic ambush. Maybe my prediction that long knives would come out is happening sooner than I expected.
     
     
    So who are the long-knives ? It is highly unlikely that Kurds would have been able to penetrate Turkish military command, so the intel must have come from people who have the ability to penetrate Turkish MIT and/or military leadership – most likely Israel/Mossad. Could also be US NSA sigint passed to PKK via Israel. US and Israel are not happy at all with ascendant Islamism in Turkey and particularly Islamist AKP Party’s massive popularity in Turkey.
     
     
    Things are getting “Curiouser and curiouser”, said Alice in the Wonderland.

  298. be my friend, i can die for you
    be my enemy, get ready to die

  299. LOL Avery- Loved it…

    Necati- when you send links, be so smart enough to send it in english.. not a big fan of Turkish media nor i understand the language.. so f you to send a message, do it in a way that everyone can understand .. if not, then don’t waste our pages with nonsense links…

    Thank you
    Gayane     

  300. Avery, You are right.  Israel and probably the US don’t particularly like the Islamist regime in turkey.  I think they prefer the Kemalist regime much more.  Let’s see what’s going to happen.

  301. VTiger, Btw, I like your name.  What you justly said above about our martyrs’ spirits stands true.

    You know, when Krikor Zohrab was taken into the interior of turkey to be butchered in 1915, he knew about his fate, then he told the gendarme who was assigned to kill him that if he kills him, after his death “Krikor Zohrab’s” spirit won’t leave him alone.  Indeed after Zohrab was butchered, the mighty Krikor Zohrab’s spirit haunted that turkish gendarme until his death and he died soon after he has killed Krikor Zohrab.

  302. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 18, 2011 at 7:42 pm // Reply

    Turks used Kurds in murdering Armenians. Now, Turks cannot murder Armenian anymore. They are murdering Kurds. This is a partial justice. Islam, Kurds and Armenians are going to tear Turkey apart. When Western Armenia is liberated and Republic of Kurdistan has established, Turks might have peace in the region.

  303. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 18, 2011 at 7:55 pm // Reply

    FRIENDS, please use the word “murder,” instead  of “kill”, when you are talking about our martyrs destinies. Because, some killings could be justified, for example self-defense. Thank you.

  304. And all this, is happening in the holy month of ramadan.
    Those lands are haunted with the spirits of my butchered unburied forefathers & they will remain haunted until the day of reckoning.

  305. Ragnar, regarding the reclaiming of Christian churches, I know only what I read in our papers.  But after the ‘museumization’ of Sourp Khatch, do you really wonder that those in charge of the restoration of the church in Dikrangerd would prefer to find private funding for this project. 

  306. avatar ragnar naess // August 19, 2011 at 2:12 pm // Reply

    boyajian
    Yes, the Sourp Khatch seems to have been envisaged as a compromise by the Turkish government, in order to meet critique that the Armenian heritage is not taken care of and at the same time giving it status as a museum, because this is how the TC government sees it, and to appease their own anti-armenians nationalists. After the criticism from many quarters a religious ceremony – one day – was allowed, and after still more debate a cross was reinstated in the church. Taken as an attempt to make good the confiscation and neglect of Armenian churches, what the TC government hasd done is meagre indeed, and I can very well understand Armenians that prefer to make a similar restoration of the church in Dikranagert/Diyarbakir a private enterprise. However, the Sourp Khatch may be a beginning. But the drawback of a private project is that the moral and pecuniary debt of the Turkish government is not adressed. The aim should be to have the Turkish government finance the restoration of Armenian churches and then hand them over to the Armenian community. — In Bosnia the international community rebuilt houses on a grand scale in muslim areas in respublika srpska (the serbian part of bosnia), in order to honour the memory of the muslims killed in the genocidal Serb campaign. This area was also the site of some of the most widespread Serb campaigns to rape Bosniak women to have them bear “serb” children. Actually very few Bosniaks have returned to these houses –  the memories seem to be too traumatic and they still fear the Serb neighbours – I saw this area  when I was engaged in a project on the situation of children returning to Bosnia after having spent several years in Europa in families who applied for asylum. It was a very uncanny sight, lots of nice houses completely derserted, with bushes and high grass growing around them in a wilderness, but still a monument to preserve memory about the atrocities committed. – So even if the Armenians in Diyarbakir only count a handful people today – if any at all, an official restoration of the church would be a monument to the remembrance of the near total extermination of the Armenians in the city in late may 1915, as this is described in the books of Ugur Ungor and Maurice Kevorkian, to a great extent based on the writings of Tomas Mgrditchian, employed in the British consulate at the time. He escaped to Egypt. – As you maybe remember I wrote more than one year ago, I organized a course in English for human rights activists in Diyarbakir, and I brought up the fate of the Armenians to the Kurds participating in the course. “Yes, we know they were mistreated!” one of them said and all looked down, but they were very unwilling to pursue the theme. So it makes sense to my mind to ask the Turkish government to finance a restoration and then hand the restored church over to the Armenian patriarch in Istanbul which I believe is the demand regarding Sourp Khatch.
       
          

  307. Ragnar, you and I have changed roles.  Now you are the dreamer.  Of course Turkey should pay to restore and return countless churches and other institutions to the Armenian nation, even if only to serve as a monument to what was taken, what was lost.  Setting the historical record straight is the ideal many hope for.   The Sourp Giragos church in Dikranagerd will do the same through its reconstruction and will also serve as an example of what can be accomplished through Kurdish and Armenian cooperation. 

  308. “So it makes sense to my mind to ask the Turkish government to finance a restoration and then hand the restored church over to the Armenian patriarch in Istanbul…”
     
    Armenians don’t have to ask anything, ragnar naess, this is another blunder of yours. Turkish government has assumed an obligation to provide care for all Christian monuments, structures, cemeteries, and edifices according to the provisions of both the Sevres and Lausanne treaties. As you might have witnessed, Turks don’t spare efforts to provide care for Christian structures. Out of 3000 Armenians churches and monasteries only several exist, and mostly in Constantinople. Scores of churches and monasteries have been desecrated, destructed, used as tank targets during military maneuvers, transformed to ‘museums’, mosques, sheepcots or barn toilets. And you suggest asking Turks to restore anything? They will only do something good for non-Turks if (1)they’re compelled to or (2)as a buffoonery staged for Europe to show off what religiously ‘tolerant’  the Turkish nation is. They are Turks, ragnar, we know them well…

  309. avatar ragnar naess // August 19, 2011 at 4:39 pm // Reply

    gor
    you say:
    Armenians don’t have to ask anything, ragnar naess, this is another blunder of yours. Turkish government has assumed an obligation to provide care for all Christian monuments, structures, cemeteries, and edifices according to the provisions of both the Sevres and Lausanne treaties.
     comment: the world of signed treaties is not the same as the world of practical politics, Gor! This is another examples of your lack of understanding of the world you live in. We are talking about politics. The theme launched by Boyajian was how to work towards justice given the world we actually live in. How can we influence the Turks, if at all? Is it right of the ARF not to put so much emphasis on the recognition of genocide, but focus on preserving the Armenian cultural heritage in Turkey? These are natural and inevitable questions. To repeat the text of sevre and lausanne will not help. The question is what we can do. If nothing then drop the theme  

  310. avatar ragnar naess // August 19, 2011 at 5:00 pm // Reply

    gor
    thank you for your admission that the distinction between invaders and indigenous people s not essential for the Convention. By the way, the Bulgarians were also to a certain extent descendants of Turkic tribes from the East. Regarding the turks of Bulgaria in 1877-78, they were to a large extent driven out of their villages by attacks from Cossacks and Bulgarian bands, after part of the inhabitants were massacred. This is what McCarthy relates. They were civilians, not soldiers. By being sent on the road in the autumn and winter they were clearly put in life endangering situations. 250.000 died. They were targeted as such. The intention was evidently to bring about a large mortalityand to prevent their return to reclaim their rights. They were a subgroup like the Bosniaks of Srebrenica and environs. “the most reasonable conclusion is that the perpetrators were aware of the effects of their actions and that some of them strove towards this result”. This is more or less what ICTJ says regarding “the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia”.  substitute “Turks in bulgaria” for “Armenian of eastern anatolia” and keep the wording of ICTJ identical. Yes, according to this reasoning both were genocides. This is my opinion, but of course I may be wrong.

  311. avatar ragnar naess // August 20, 2011 at 1:12 am // Reply

    Boyajian
    it is interesting that you say I am a dreamer and that you were the dreamer before. Have you changed your attitude and beliefs lately? 

  312. avatar ragnar naess // August 20, 2011 at 4:47 am // Reply

    gayane
    you say that GENOCIDE IS GENOCIDE and that the point that words can have different meanings does not apply to the word genocide. It is the first time I have heard this argument. are you sure of this? If this is so why do both jurists and genocide researchers bother so much with definitions? 

  313. avatar ragnar naess // August 20, 2011 at 5:02 am // Reply

    monastras
    I have not heard from you for a while. Possibly you are not comfortable with the style of the discussions. Then I have to say that I have also been very uncomfortable with discussions. But I guess that you are here because you believe that something must be done to adress the relationsship between Armenians and Turks. I can only guess at the resons for your belief, but I guess that you – like many Turks, and immeasurably more today that 20 years ago – realize that Turks must answer the accusations from Armenians and also from an important  part of the world’s historians and representative bodies. I dont know your reactions to the debates, but I imagine that you feel it hard to encounter something  that has to do not only with being contradicted, but also being ridiculed and verbally attacked. This is very much the reaction I myself had from 2007 and onwards when I started to engage in debates with Armenians. I was feeling hurt, I was wondering if there was something wrong with me, I was disgusted with the debate which did not correspond to standards that I was used to. But I realized that there is no way except dialogue. And one must have faith in dialogue, especially when it seems not to lead anywhere. I have learned a lot about how the memory of the genocide stays with Armenians, something I knew intellectually from before, but something that gets much more pointed and clear if you actually argue with people. So I ask you to join the debate again, and not leave us  

  314. mjm, you posted a thought provoking thought-experiment on ‘intent’ using Breivik’s actions as a case study (…don’t recall the thread).

    Did Norwegians debate it adequately in a sober and detached manner, or is  the event too traumatic and personal  for them to be discussed and debated in a clinically detached manner ?

    Please give us an update if you would. Thank you. 

  315. No.

  316. I perfectly understand that the world of signed treaties is not the same as the world of practical politics, ragnar naess. What I also seem to understand, in contrast to you, that signed treaties are a part of the world of Realpolitik. My comment targeted the embarrassing wording you used re: asking the Turkish government to finance a restoration. How lovely! First Turks destroy, desecrate, transform Armenian religious sites to ‘museums’, mosques, sheepcots, and barn toilets, and then Armenians are required to ask the same destructive Turks to restore them. Why is it that most of your comments are directed at Armenians, not at condemning the uncivilized Turkish behavior?

  317. You are wrong, ragnar naess.  As is notorious genocide denier, Turkish henchman McCarthy.  In my comment about Turks in Bulgaria I gave you a perfect reasoning as to why substituting “Turks in Bulgaria” for “Armenians of Eastern Anatolia” will not be appropriate for the application of the identical wording of ICTJ. You conveniently avoided my focal point: ethnic Turks (Ottoman or Bulgarian notwithstanding) represented one of the warring sides in 1877-78 and in 1912-13, thus they suffered atrocities. Armenians did not represent a warring side but suffered genocidal extermination, regardless. During any war civilians suffer, but their sufferings, in most cases, do not normally fall under the category of premeditated genocide. As a result of atrocities against Bulgarian Turks during the wars they were expelled from lands they earlier occupied. Armenians were forcibly deported from their ancestral lands. There are many peculiarities, but one indeed needs to be an unbiased observer to understand them. You, clearly, don’t seem to be one.

  318. Ragnar

    I am not leaving AW. Some discussions may be fruitless but I will keep trying to present my view and learn from others. The problem with Armenian weekly is they do not post my comments very often as they find them the propaganda of Turks. Verbal attack or being ridiculed is okay as long as I can present my view. I  asked a clear question to the readers but haven’t received a proper answer.What is your opinion about my question?
    By the way, Turks aren’t scared of the Armenian claims. they can also face their history without any problem. The same must be done by Armenians by not pretending nothing was done on their side. If we believe them, Their grandparents were all angels. They didn’t revolt but the Turks misunderstood them delibrately.

  319. Furthermore, ragnar naess.

    “’The most reasonable conclusion is that the perpetrators were aware of the effects of their actions [against Bulgarian Turks] and that some of them strove towards this result’. This is more or less what ICTJ says regarding ‘the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia’”
    .
     
    ICTJ Report states, in particular, that the crime of genocide has four elements: (1) the perpetrator killed one or more persons; (2) such person or persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; (3) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and (4) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction. ICTJ established that three of the elements listed above were instantaneously met: (1) one or more persons were killed; (2) such persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; and (4) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group. As for (3), ICTJ established that the most reasonable conclusion to draw of the events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent. Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention.
     
    Out of four elements mentioned above, the atrocities against the Turks of Bulgaria, in my view, do not meet three, namely: (1), (3), and (4).
     
    Re: (1). Russian army and Bulgarian freedom-fighters were not perpetrators per se; together with the Turks they represented one of the warring sides. Neither side involved in a military action at a formally proclaimed war can be perceived as perpetrator. Again, Russians won a decisive victory at Stalingrad in 1942 destroying a great number of Nazi Germans. Can it be said that Russians were, actually, perpetrators of the atrocities?
     
    Re: (3). It can’t be said that Russian army and Bulgarian freedom-fighters intended to destroy, in whole or in part, Bulgarian Turks as a group. Even your BFF Justin McCarthy, with whom I had a revulsion watching you at a University of Utah discussion, admitted that ethnic Turks became victims of battle casualties more than murders by Bulgarian units and Russian troops [“Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922”, pp.66-67]. The Ottoman army has also attacked Bulgarian Turk non-combatants and used Bulgarian Turk civilians to shield their retreat. Did Turks intended to destroy their own ethnic group?
     
    Re: (4). The conduct of Russian army and Bulgarian liberators didn’t take place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against the Bulgarian Turks. The only major instances of their encounter with the Turks were wars, and not a pattern of destruction. The manifest pattern of a destructive conduct refers to the Turks because they were the oppressor group during the Ottoman centuries, not the Bulgarians, or the Armenians, or the Serbs, or the Albanians, or the Romanians, or the Arabs, or the Greeks, for that matter. In the case of the Armenians, there clearly was a manifest pattern of similar conduct: the 1894-1896 massacres of Armenians under the Bloody Assassin Abdulhamid II—the 1909 massacres of Armenians in Adana—the 1915-1923 genocide of Armenians in the Ottoman empire.

  320. Monastras, sorry that you feel mistreated by the moderators.
    As to your comment above:  Armenians did revolt!  Rightfully!  But it was a minority of the population.  We face this squarely.   Are you suggesting that the great majority of an ancient nation consisting of primarily innocent elderly, women and children deserved genocide because of the actions of those who fought for freedom?  I must not understand you correctly.

  321. Monastras:     —-If Turks aren’t scared of Armenian claims and can face their history without problem, then why won’t they accept their forefathers’ guilt in history? Amused at “the same must be done by Armenians by not pretending nothing was done on their side.” Exactly what was done on Armenians’ side, please? All of the Turkish population of Asia Minor was savagely slaughtered by Armenians or Turkish homeland in the Altay mountains was stolen from them? Also, would be glad to enlighten myself as to what “revolt” of Armenians led to misunderstanding by poor Turks? Don’t forget to add, as to, if there was a “revolt”, why the group of a few revolutionaries was not brought to custody, but millions of innocent men, women, elders, children, and even the unborn ripped off their mothers’ wombs, were barbarously slaughtered by the Turks?  Curiously,  K.

  322. ‘I  asked a clear question to the readers but haven’t received a proper answer.’

    We also asked a clear question and have not received an answer – proper or improper.
    We’ll ask again:

    {Avery August 16, 2011 
    Monastras:  I will ask you a simple question one more time: do you or do you not stand by this post of yours
    [Guest - Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust] (posted   @Hurriyet) 
    Yes or No ? }

    And yes Mr. Ragnar, when you render an opinion re Monastras’s question ‘What is your opinion about my question?’, you might consider rendering an opinion about our question also.
     

  323. Monastras, It is an insult to our 2 Million martyrs’ annihilation by the hands of the CUP of the then the Turkish gov’t of 1915 to say that it is a fabrication.  HOW DARE YOU!  You Monastras.

  324. avatar Darwin Jamgochian // August 20, 2011 at 8:29 pm // Reply

    What nonsense!!! Apparently the poster is dumber than Hitler. Hundreds of stories out of hundreds of villages and scattered to the 4 corners of the earth could concoct those tragic stories? Was it a genocide? It deosn’t even deserve an answer.

  325. Boyajian,
    Revolutionaries are always the minorities of the societies compare to the rest of the population. This isn’t valid only in the Armenian case but all the similar cases. But they can cause havoc. The support for the Russian enemy was widespread among the Armenians. Nearly, 20,000 Armenians crossed the Russian border and formed voluntary units (This is from the Armenian sources). Moreover, The Armenian insurgency also caused problems for the Government such as cutting the supplies line, telegraph lines of the army, raiding the Turkish villages etc. Imagine, having the MP’s of the Ottoman parliament as the commander of the voluntary Armenian units made the matter worse in the eyes of the Turks. The Armenians actually captured the city of Van and handed over to the Russian Army. Turks were also fighting in many fronts at that time. The Armenian leaders were warned many times by the CUP but warnings fell on deaf ears. This issue has been contaminated by the distorted books, nationalist approach etc. For example, I read an article of Murat Bardakci, an Ottoman Historian/Journalist in the daily Haberturk, He was furious with Ara Sarafian, Talat Pasha’s wife had given him the memoirs of Talat Pasha in the past and he published this in Turkish recently. According to him, Ara Sarafian distorted so many things as he likes and published this in English as the Talat Pasha’s confession. His lawyer(I think in England) made this issue a court case. But what you will read when you buy this book is Talat Pasha’s confession of the genocide.

    With regards to   innocent elderly, women and children deserved genocide because of the actions of those who fought for freedom? Nobody deserves such a treatment. I guess, it wouldn’t be wise to separate families. We cannot also rule that the CUP leaders were the perfect decision makers. If it was today, nobody would die on the road as there is no bus without air-conditioning. They also hardly thought about their own soldiers. They even didn’t bring back the soldiers fought in Yemen after the war I know  one of them is my close relative. He had to walk on his own all the way from Yemen to Mersin. Bear in mind, we are judging something with today’s logic that happened a century ago. During the deportations, Armenians were able to buy train tickets in the Adana region and travelled by train. The deportation was carried out depending on the local facilities and the actions of the local administration. There is no evidence discovered so far to suggest that this was a premeditated action of the government. Their action was reactionary rather than premeditated. If a new genuine evidence is discovered tomorrow that it was premeditated . I am sure Turkey will say. We are very sorry that we thought that this wasn’t a premeditated action but it turned out other way around. We deeply share the great pain of the Armenians.

    I am sure Armenians will say that they resisted in Van against the deportation or heavy taxation elsewhere or the revolutionaries were only a handful  people why on earth they did this to us?  My argument is if all the evidences suggest that it was a genocide , Armenians must have taken this issue to the International Court of Justice long time ago. You will have the best lawyers to present your case. You will have the opportunity to tell the calamity that befell on you in front of the world audience.  Imagine, you have a very strong and a solid case but stay away from the court and say Turkey should apply to the court and make some other stupid comments like Armenians blame the whole Turkish nation etc. Who is going to benefit from the verdict? Armenians, who is complaining about the denialist policy of Turkey? Armenians, who is going to stop the distortion and the twisted fact of the Turks? Armenians. If you aren’t doing this then please do not complain if somebody says exactly the opposite. I know you have an emotional investment in this Boyajian, but I am sorry emotional investments cannot be counted in the legal case. 
    Another subject,
    Imagine; you Armenians can go back to the beginning of the century and nothing happened, no deportation, no revolution. What would have been the picture of the Armenian community as of today?  Would you prefer to coexist with the conservative and extreme nationalist Turks in the harsh environment in the eastern Turkey or live in the USA or elsewhere? 

  326. avatar ragnar naess // August 21, 2011 at 12:58 pm // Reply

    gor
    thank you for your post on the ICTJ and the Turks in Bulgaria. Now I am not a jurist, but I sketched my following reasoning to Morten Bergsmo, who works as a UN specialist on these matters, at a seminar some years ago, and he said that my reasoning was interesting and that I should follow it up. – I disagree with you for several reasons. First, the Turks killed and driven out were civilians, men women, children, sick, old, they were not warring parties. Civilians are not part of the “warring parties”. As far as I know the laws of war make a point that civilians should not be targeted if it is possible to avoid it. So also your mentioning of German soldiers (not “Nazis”) killed after the debacle of Stalingrad is irrelevant 1) because they do not constitute a”protected group” according to the Convention and 2) because they were soldiers.It was matter of how to treat prisoners in war- And the pattern described by McCarthy, and confirmed by an overwhelming evidence including protests from a great number of Western journalists at the time, was a pattern of targeting ethnic Turks – and also jews by the way – as such.  Further: the word “Freedom fighter” is not a juridical term and irrelevant in this context.The question is if there was an intent on the part of Russians, Cossacks and Bulgarian bands which can be covered by the wording of the ICTJ when it deals with the Armenian case. –Further, the number of Turks murdered is not the only relevant point here. Murdering people (killing people) is only one of the acts described by the Convention. One of the acts described in the Convention is DELIBERATELY INFLICTING ON THE GROUP CONDITIONS OF LIFE CALCULATED TO BRING ABOUT  ITS PHYSICAL DESTRUCTION IN WHOLE OR IN PART. In the ICTJ text this is hinted at by the words “…the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction(my emphasis)”.  By killing some Turkish other Turks were induced to flee in panic for their lives, and in these conditions (no food, winter conditions) this meant putting them in a life threatening condition. The mortality was very high, and a considerable part of the Turks of Bulgaria died. the carefully expressed conclusion of the ICTJ is as yoiu say:”….that the most reasonable conclusion to draw of the events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.” Unquote. Given the reasoning of ICTJ I find it very difficult to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria were subjected to genocide. But of course I may be wrong. From your arguments I see points that I have not been thinking of.  However, I am surprised that you indirectly describe women, children and old people as representatives of the “warring parties”.
     
     
      
     
     
     

     

  327. Monastras, Although it has been said in here on AW columns numerous times, but apparently you didn’t make an attempt to read them nor read hundreds and more of the books about the Armenian Genocide and about the vast Armenian population in the Republic of Turkey on or before 1915 and what truly transpired.  The Armenian freedom fighters were trying to protect the Armenian unarmed population since the Hamidian massacres of 1895-1896 when Abdul Hamid had 300 thousand Armenian unarmed civilians murdered on the Armenian Highlands that was at the time and till today it is called Eastern Turkey.  The Armenian population ever since the Seljuk Turks came from the Mongolian steppes of the Altay mountain to the Armenian Highlands, were never left alone in peace as they were constantly being murdered and barbarically butchered just because they were Christian Armenians living in their own anscestral homeland over 5000 years that was their own homeland.  They were living in sheer fear even though they were constant workers, inventors, builders, scientists, educators, lawyers, and tradesmen.  The A.R.F. organization that created their freedom fighters stemmed from within the heart of the Armenian people who wanted to protect the unarmed civilian Armenian population from constant attacks, murders, rapes, kidnapping, persecution, theft of property & belongings, etc. etc. by both the Turkish gendarmes and the Turkish people.  They never had peace.  Not to mention under the Turkish yoke Armenians were also taxed three times more than the Turkish population.   The Armenians were 2 1/2 – 3 Million population in 1915.  The A.R.F. Freedom Fighters were only a few trying to protect the population here and there whenever the majority unarmed people were murdered in thousands, such as in Van area and other places too in the Eastern Turkey towns and cities.  Then in 1908 a new gov’t came to the throne of Turkey in the name of the Ittihadist CUPs claiming that they were progressive government and things were going to get better in the country as well as for the Armenians.  the ARF Organization in desperation after the Hamidian massacres of their people wished to believe in them and for a very short while they even collaborated with the newly formed Ittihadist CUPs until 1909 when the CUPs deceived them and murdered 30,000 Adana’s unarmed civilian Armenian population as they premeditated the murder of the Armenian nation to finish the bloody murders of Abdul Hamid and to put the final nails on the coffins of 2 million Armenians by first murdering the 250 unarmed civilian intellegentsia, then they had all the Armenian unarmed civilian males in the country murdered.  Then after that they had the unarmed civilian women and children walk the death marches down to Mesopotamian deserts all while the CUP gov’t. freed the convicted murderers from their jails to go and attack those poor women and children that were walking by foot in the name of relocation but without food and without water, and all the while they were constantly being attacked by the criminals, by the local Kurds and Turks; only in the end to be throw in Der-El-Zor, a huge ditch called Saaddin in the deserts of Syria to burn them in a blazing fire after throwing them in that huge ditch.  Whoever survived after that, they only survived by a miracle.  Out of 3 Million Armenians in 1915-1923 only 700 thousand orphaned children and few women survived.  Thus in the Diaspora today scattered all around the world, we are the remnants of the martyred 2 Million Armenians who were murdered premeditatedly by the Ittihadist CUP government of Turkey from 1915 through 1923 which is called the Armenian Genocide that until today the Turkish government does not want to accept it and they are denying it for 96 years living in a lye and plus lying to their population and paying millions of dollars to governments all around the world, especially to the US gov’t. senators and congressmen to lie about it and they are driving an enormous campaign all around the world to scare government officials to not accept the Armenian Genocide.  Thus the Armenian Genocide is still ongoing because of the Turkish govenrment’s denials until today.   

  328. Most genocides, like the Armenian genocide, have an underlying economic component, which many scholars have shown, overrides most other variables, like race, ethnicity or religion. The Ottoman Empire, fighting several wars of choice on several fronts, was bankrupt and using its minority citizens to finance its adventures and its support of Germany. When the Armenians refused to cooperate further by withholding tax payments, they were deemed as ‘traitors and revolutionaries’, even though they had warned the CUP not to enter into the war at all. Let’s not forget, the minorities were the bank account for the empire…all the wealth amassed by the empire came from the toil of the millet peoples, not from the ruling class. So, yes, the Armenians reacted in self-defense….some may call this a ‘revolt’, but in light of what was happening to them across the empire, on their own land by the way….they were fully justified in trying to secure their towns and villages from endless raids and pillaging by the authorities. When the Armenians refused to cooperate, they were accused of treason, rounded up and murdered or expelled. Their properties and businesses were later handed over to those who were close associates of the CUP. Their stolen gold and bank accounts were transferred to the Bank of England, where it remains. When backed into a corner, rats will fight like rats and eat each others’ heads off….the CUP ate its own citizens in an effort to stay afloat, and just like Hitler, they went down the drain as genocidal murderers and thieves.  This is established history….not a fantasy invented by Armenians, who by the way, never had an army, a tank or a battalion, as did the empire. To accuse them of such is like accusing a mosquito of threatening an elephant. 

  329. avatar ragnar naess // August 21, 2011 at 2:03 pm // Reply

    monastras
    there have been people here in AW who have been complaining of being  censored by the AW staff. There has been at least one case where an Armenian has complained of this, it does not only happen to Turks. If I were you I would send a letter to the editor with the post that was rejected, and ask for an explanation.
    Then you write: By the way, Turks aren’t scared of the Armenian claims. they can also face their history without any problem. Unquote.
    I have read quite a number of books and booklets in which Turkish historians have commented on the accusations regarding the Armenian fate in 1915-16. Here in Norway many of these are sent out by the Turkish Embassy. But – according to my reading – these contributions cannot be said really to go into the question. One thing is to disagree, but the Turkish contributions as a rule do not refer to the more specific points of the genocide scholars and Armenian scholars. they dont refer the arguments, but only repeat assertions known from Turkish conservatives. This looks to me like unwillingness to face the past. I am not talking about you, but about the general Turkish reaction. To take one example, the Turkish author  Enver Zia Karal describes the collection of materials “The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”, published in 1916 as “onesided British propaganda” and “not worth dwelling upon” (Sarafian, Ara: The archival trail” in Hovannisian (ed)(1999):  remembrance and denial. The case of the Armenian genocide. Wayne state University press, p. 52). While it is true that the book was published for propaganda purposes, the majority of the contributors were resident foreigners, many of whom also published their experiences after WW1. While they hardly were in a position to know about the intents and decisions of the Ittihadist government, they saw the facts on the ground, and I cannot conclude anything other than this is a sourcebook which gives a very good, and gruesome, picture of the deportations and killing of Armenians.   So the description by Karal is misleading and seems to show an unwillingness to go into the question of what happened to the Armenians. The words “not worth dwelling upon” sounds to me as unwillingness. A more recent contribution, that of Haluk Selvi of Sakarya University (2007) is better in that the assertions of genocide scholars are much more throughly referred to, but when he starts providing his own ideas, he does not refer to the literature he initially presented. He gives what for many years was the standard official Turkish version.
     

  330. Monastras, How could 700 half dead, half alive skeletons and orphaned hungry children who miraculously escaped from blazing fires, swords and guns from the Turkish gendarmes be able to go to the international courts to claim their rights of their race being murdered?  They were hungry orphaned children and some skeleton of women that the American orphanages took them in and also thanks to the Syrian gov’t. who saved them as well as Greece who opened their doors to the Armenian survivors.  Talaat Pasha of the CUP admitted himself that the Armenians after being murdered en masse about 2 million of them; will not be able to raise their heads to even compalin about it.  Talaat said that it will take the Armenians 50 years to be able to start talking about it, complain and be able to try to claim their rights.  Yes Talaat Pasha of the Ittihadist CUPs who was the mastermind of the Armenian Genocide said the above statement.  And it did come true, the newer generation Armenians who’s parents were the orphaned children that miraculously survived the Armenian Genocide started commemorating and speaking about it exactly after 50 years in 1965.  For your information there has been international historians working on the veracity of the Armenian Genocide for 30 years.  The Armenian Genocide that was premeditated by the 1915 Ittihadist CUP government of the Turkish Republic cannot be disputed.  As Hitler said on or about 1939 before annihilating the Jews in Europe, he said, “let us annihilate the Jews, because today who remembers the Armenian Genocide?”

  331. Monastras, do you really need proof of ‘premeditation’ before you can offer an apology and “deeply share in the great pain of the Armenian people.”  Where is your humanity?    An ancient nation is virtually wiped from its historical homeland, leaving villages, churches, shops, homes to the looters,  thousands of orphans in the Syrian desert and scattering survivors across the globe and you need to see the smoking gun before you can feel basic human compassion! 
     
    I will never understand Turks like you.  Your great-grandparents probably witnessed these ‘deportations’ and may have even wept as they saw the pitiable caravans of starving Christians being driven through the streets.  They may even have convinced themselves that the government was doing what it had to do for the good of the empire.  But when the war ended and the dust settled and they did not see their former neighbors returning to their homes to claim their belongings, didn’t they know what happened?  Didn’t they lament the loss of the baker, the banker, the tailor, the teacher and ask themselves how did we let this happen? 
     
    You and I disagree on premeditation, but can’t we agree on the tragedy?  Do you really deny that the actions of the government directly led to this tragedy?  Do you not understand what price was paid for you to claim Turkish pride today?  Do you not see the blood that was shed so that a blue-eyed savior could lead your people to a new and modern Turkey for all Turks?  Why do we need courts and commissions for Turks to acknowledge the Armenian loss and simply say sorry? 
     
    You have been denied the full truth by your own government and greed and desire for power is standing in the way of doing what is right.

  332. ragnar naess,   I’m not a jurist, either, but our reading into the same provisions of the relevant juridical documents, obviously, differ. I may say it is because of your pro-Turkish tilt, you may say it is because of my ethnic affinity. The fact, which I hope you’ll have wisdom not to dispute, is that the ICTJ resolution dealt with the genocide of Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, not the genocide of Turks in Bulgaria. The fact is that the 1948 Genocide Convention was based on Lemkin’s study and invention of the term ‘genocide’ based on the race annihilation of the Armenians, not the Bulgarian Turks.
     
    Now, I didn’t say “civilians were part of the warring parties”. I said ethnically Bulgarian Turks represented one of the warring parties: the Ottoman Turks. And, unfortunately, even though the laws of war make a point that civilians shouldn’t be targeted, Bulgarian Turks were targeted in an ongoing war because ethnically they represented a warring side, the Turks. I brought this argument for you to make a distinction between an ethnic group that was at war with the other(s) and an ethnic group (Armenians) that was not at war with anyone, but was slaughtered en masse regardless and on a grand scale and level of barbarity.
     
    About the “protected group” that you keep repeating. Do please refer me to an excerpt where the “protected group” is mentioned in the Convention in the context that you’re referring to. If you think the Stalingrad paradigm is irrelevant, I can provide you with hundreds of facts of atrocities against the civilian German population when the Red Army entered Germany. But Russians will laugh in your face if you dare to tell them that “the laws of war make a point that civilians should not be targeted.” Most probably Russians will say: ‘Germans killed innocent Russian civilians in the first place, and we retaliated by doing the same to the German civilians.’
     
    I didn’t put “freedom fighter” in a juridical context. By using the correct denomination for the Bulgarian paramilitaries (freedom-fighters, liberators, etc., and not ‘bands’), I tried to demonstrate to you that these people were fighting for a just cause, however non-juridical it may sound: liberation of their lands from Turkic invaders and colonizers. You sound like saying: some uncivilized nomads invaded my dwelling, kept its inhabitants at awe by constantly massacring, raping, and humiliating them, made the legitimate home-owners their slaves for centuries, but now when the suitable moment came the home-owners must refrain from liberating their home because in a juridical context it will mean inflicting pain on the invaders. Does this make sense?
     
    Because there were wars in which the oppressed rose against the oppressors, I don’t think it was the deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part in the sense that the Convention implies. Atrocities were committed against the Turks as were they committed by the Turks against Bulgarians, Russians, and even their own civilian Turks. Compare the war situation in the Balkans with a no-war situation in Eastern Anatolia, and you’ll most likely come to no other conclusion that these two situations in terms of a deliberate infliction are incomparable.
     
    I categorically disagree with the application of the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction to the Bulgarian Turks’ case. Fleeing in panic for their lives, no food, winter conditions, etc. is the weakest argument you came up with. If these are understood by you as putting people in a life-threatening condition, then you can in a risk-free manner apply them to any war waged by human civilizations from the times of Sumer until now.
     
    Also noted is how easily you used the term ‘genocide’ with regard to the Turks in Bulgaria (“Given the reasoning of ICTJ I find it very difficult to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria were subjected to genocide.”) and how excruciatingly reluctant you are in using the term in the case of Armenians, the term that was coined based on the study of race annihilation of Armenians. Do you now see how Turkic-centric you are?
     
    For the record: Since I noticed that you have a tendency to ascribe to the posters something they didn’t actually say. Neither directly nor indirectly have I “described women, children and old people as representatives of the ‘warring parties’”. I now copy and paste what I actually said in one of my posts above: “Ethnic Turks (Ottoman or Bulgarian notwithstanding) represented one of the warring sides in 1877-78 and in 1912-13, thus they suffered atrocities.” You directly deny that the Armenian genocide was premeditated, ragnar naess, nonetheless you concentrate your attention on what others might have indirectly in your imagination said about the Turks. Does this make sense? Turkocentrism?

  333. avatar ragnar naess // August 21, 2011 at 11:41 pm // Reply

    Gor
    with all respect, I cannot follow your line of arguments. I am also surprised at your arguments. to give one example: you write: Now, I didn’t say “civilians were part of the warring parties”. I said ethnically Bulgarian Turks represented one of the warring parties: the Ottoman Turks.unquote. No, but they were IN FACT  civilians. This is one of my premises, and it is historically accurate, and it is in line with other examples where the genocide concept has been applied. The males murdered at Srebrenitsa were 1) not soldiers killed in military operations, 2) targeted because of their ethnicity. This formes an important part of the reasoning why the genocide concept applies to the case. The idea that “Bulgarian Turks ehnically represented one of the warring parties” makes no sense.

  334. The premise is wrong: these are not merely Armenian ‘claims’, they are a bona fide part of world history. It is only among certain circles in Turkey and small pockets – either allied with or bought by Turkey that dispute the veracity of the genocide.  Nationalist Turks seem to think that repeating a lie 10,000 times miraculously turns it into truth. Well, nothing could be further from truth, my friends, than the lies promulgated by them and their paid surrogates, particularly in the US. We all know who they are…disreputable, discredited and artificial ‘scholars’, who peddle propaganda as history. Does Turkey or anyone else really think the world was deaf, dumb and blind in 1915, or any year since?  There is enough objective, non-Armenian eyewitness documentation to fill many libraries, so attempts to redefine historical truth will not go far. It might fly inside Turkey, but that’s about the extent of it.

       

  335. avatar ragnar naess // August 21, 2011 at 11:50 pm // Reply

    monastras
    I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.   

  336. avatar ragnar naess // August 22, 2011 at 12:04 am // Reply

    gor
    one more point: I never denied that the Armenians suffered genocide PROVIDED THE REASONING IN THE ICTJ. Obviously it is so. My point is that because of the wording of the ICTJ verdict – taken as a reasoning applying a general procedure that can also be applied to other cases – it is highly problematic to deny that genocide occurred against the Turks in Bulgaria. The ICTJ  is then read as providing a way of reasoning or method, providing criteria that can be applied in other cases. This is how the law operates. But maybe we do not adress each other or understand each other on this point. As I say I may be wrong but this is how it seems to me
    To emphasize: to my mind it is obvious that the Armenians suffered genocide in the sense provided by the ICTJ in 2002.  but note that nothing here is said about the kind of perpetrator. Whereas the genocide scholars make it a point that the perpetrators were in the government and that genocide was an adopted policy.

  337. I am impressed with Ragnar’s persistance and his speech to Monastras… wow… we have a public speaker amongst us ladies and gents..

    Ragnar, why don’t you use your talents to convince the Denialists Turks and yourself of course on: yes, Genocide is a Genocide(Gor jan.. excellent observation about Ragnar having NO problem labeling Bulgarian Turks unfortunate encounter with such event as Genocide but very very very very very very very reluctunt of labeling the Armenian Genocide, (even though we gave him plenty of reasons as to the definition of such a word and of course, about the father of the word Genocide..Rafael Lemkin who coined that word mainly because of the Genocide of our ancestors). it is very odd right? ABSOLUTELY NOT… Gor jan.. you may not know who Rangar is (even though I am sure you already figured it out) but I have known Ragnar for a very long time and I know his character.. He WILL NOT admit that Ottoman Turks Genocide of Eastern and Western Armenians WERE, IS AND WILL remain as Genocide no matter how many times he goes around it… no matter how many times we point out his reasons are not realistic, very confusing and very bias, no matter how many times we provide hard facts.. he will NOT budge…because he is tooooooo attached to the Turkish Denialist’s hip.. unfortunately.. even after his efforts to try to create communication between Armenians and Turks as if he is the moderator of all European Union… as if he has some sort of importance amongst us…sometimes I wonder .. DID HE REALLY SAY OR ASK THAT? especially after his long long lists of credentials and experience and trials and such.,…sometimes i laugh at some of the things he says because as if his word will b taken under consideration in the higher courts..NO WHERE in his posts does he condemn Turks for what they been doing to our history and what it is left of our ancient civilization, even after their ancestors annihiliated almost an entire ethnic group.. no where does he tells Turks to do what he wants Armenians to do.. no where does he refer to Genocide…. calls every name of the book but NEVER a GENOCIDE…it is amazing… and

    in addition, his calling for Monastras to come back on these pages.. his ploy and the reasons he used to bring his buddy back on these pages is just too touching…in so much so, that  i would suggest Ragnar to use the same tactic, same passion, same compassion, same desire to call upon Turkish govt to do the right thing, and your Turkish denilast to stop the whitewashing the truth and manipulating the facts… can you do that??? I doubt you can.. actually, i know you are capable of doing it.. you are just as a denialists as those we know for sure are….

    Ragnar- no matter how much BS you put on these pages, we know you the person is behind the pompeous self portrait…stop trying because you won’t succeed.. and your call to continue that you were hurt, that you were this and that but you promised yourself you are going to annoy the heck of out us was very touching but guess what sir??? you brought that all on to yourself. be fortunate and lucky that we are entertaining you and have entertain your nonsense and confusing self for so long… try doing this with Turks and see how far you will get… i meant on Turkish site…. oh wait.. but you don’t go much on Turkish site do you?? no you do not.. i only saw few posts related to you on  Zaman or Daily Harriyet…how do you explain that sir?????

    Gayane

  338. Gor jan- excellent work pushing back on Ragnar and his buddies…

    Boyajian jan and Seervart jan- brilliant… thank you

    Karo jan and Avery jan- xosq chunem.. apreq…

    Darwin jan- de dmbo piti linen to post such dumb comments.. we have seen and read everything…..yes qez het hamamit em…

  339. There is no confusion….Armenian ‘guerilla’ or fedayee actions were acts of self-defense and self-preservation. WIthout an army or an empire to defend themselves from government-hired thugs, what other options were available?   

  340. Ragnar,you wrote to monastras,
    Quote
    I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.  
    Unquote
    If we apply your logic then because of the PKK the whole Kurdish population should be subjected to Genocide,ethnic cleansing & disposal as you say which is very insulting. Your logic is very absurd.

  341. Ragnar
    In those years tentions between Armenians and Turks in eastern Anatolia had reached a dangerous point. Armenian revolutionaries were active in all of the provinces, while Turkish authorities were displaying increased severity. There were mass arrests and new reports of the use of torture in the prisons. 

  342. Ragnar—-your statement below..really????? really Ragnar???? you really actually typed those sentences??? REALLLYYYYY???

     this one post tells a great volume how unaware you are about history.. and the implications of what one group does to protect themselves from being wiped out.. this comment alone puts you in the “extreme “i have no idea why I even speak when I know nothing…”…. so not sure why you keep posting comments.. you are digging your own sorry hole my friend.. the more you open your mouth, the more you embarass yourself…

    naess
    August 21, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    monastras
    I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.  

    Vtiger jan- exactly… you nailed it…

    Gayane   

  343. ragnar naess,   please refer me to a single case of a war in human experience in which civilians representing the ethnicity of a warring party suffered no atrocities. I, in turn, cannot follow your line of arguments. Turks waged wars against Russians and the Balkan peoples. Atrocities against civilians during any war are inevitable. A situation of the civilians representing a warring side in a war and a situation of the civilians in no-war conditions cannot be juxtaposed. The idea that Bulgarian Turks ethnically represented one of the warring parties makes a perfect sense, if you compare their situation with the situation of Armenians who neither represented a warring side nor were anywhere near the war frontlines. Therefore, the deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part applies to Armenians, as addressed by ICTJ.

  344. well done Gayane.   Հինգ:

    if you patiently wait and watch  long enough, sooner or later the deep Anti-Armenian hate being concealed beneath  the flowery, soothing  prose bursts through: they can’t help it.

    and don’t you love that phrase   ‘…. a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population’. As if you are getting rid of garbage.

    and in case anyone forgot, this same individual called the Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’ a while ago.

  345. Boyajian

    Well some times smoking gun may not be the proof of a crime.I totaly understand where  you are coming from. Yes it was a great tragedy for a community that lived on this land for a few millenium. I am sure it was a sad day that close neighbours were seperated forever. I sometimes come a cross an Armenian song on Turkish Tv while the sad song goes on, we see an old Armenian house with a trembling kerosine light. That picture tells us the sad story of Armenians.

    As you know we have a similar problem at the moment. Yes the revolutionaries are also minorities at the moment but causing great destruction. I urge people to go out and stop this nonsence. They might enjoy to kill a few soldiers but The end result will be devastating for the community. I do not think anybody listens these sort of warnings. When they hit the wall they will understand but it will be too late. If we have primitive laws . Let’s change them. If we have other problems lets take action together but if they say this region is Kurdish area. This region  is  Armenian area. We want authonomy or independence. That won’t be the case. I believe that at the personel level and the national level, people decide their own destiny. You take the chance with your best ability then you accept the result. 

    Why doesn’t Turkey make a statement about the Armenian tragedy? Well,  Armenians are doing whatever they can do to harm Turkey. They will use every statement that Turkey makes against Turkey in order to make territorial claim in the future. Armenians are exremely nationalist people. If they had power that Turkey has now. They would wipe out Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia and South Africa. Armenina invaded Azerbaijan and there is no garantee that they will not invade Turkey when they get a chance. 

  346. Monastras, There was no freedom fighters before the Hamidian massacres, and for centuries before it the Armenians were always being targeted by both the government hired thugs, by the Turks and by the Kurds.  The Armenian freedom fighters were not in great numbers whatsoever, they certainly didn’t have an army as the Turkish government had it nor any tanks.  They were very minimal in quantity and they only wished to save the helpless population from being targeted, attacked, raped, pillaged, kidnapped and murdered continuously.  They were not the 3 Million Armenian population and they wouldn’t have been there in the first place if the entire Armenian population of Turkey was not being targeted for murder and destruction by the Ottoman Turkish government for centuries much before the Hamidian massacres and the 1915 Armenian Genocide.

  347. I will let our Boyajian, to give her answers to Monastras, but in the interim I will say this.  Armenians have been waiting for 96 plus years for Turkey to come to her senses and accept the Turkish Genocide to Armenians when all of Eastern Turkey of today has been Armenian Highlands for more than 5000 years, much before the Seljuk Turks who came from the steppes of Mongolia by the Altai mountains within the past 900 years.  You call Armenians nationalistic, and what do you call the Turks who wish to get control all of Europe if given the chance today.  Armenians were the indigenous people of Western Armenia, Eastern Armenia as well as Artsakh and Javakhk.  Armenians were targeted by your turkish millet since the turks colonized our country and then killed practically all of them and then pushed them all out.  Now ask yourself, why do you Turks want to get control of all Europe?  Do you call that being solely nationalistic or simply having more than life appetites to get control and colonyze all the countries on the globe?

  348. This statement below is the most dumbest statement I have ever read..

    Why doesn’t Turkey make a statement about the Armenian tragedy? Well,  Armenians are doing whatever they can do to harm Turkey. They will use every statement that Turkey makes against Turkey in order to make territorial claim in the future. Armenians are exremely nationalist people. If they had power that Turkey has now. They would wipe out Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia and South Africa. Armenina invaded Azerbaijan and there is no garantee that they will not invade Turkey when they get a chance. 

    a true indicator that the poster has so much insecurity of himself, of his land and of his culture that he is turning the rightful owners, the Armenians who had NO trail in history a shred of INTENTIONAL pain and killings upon othe people except during an actual battle or war, into barbarians.. cold blooded killers when in reality it is his ancestors who possess such traits and demonstrated such actions many times over… what are you afraid of Monastras??? Is it because your land does not belong to you??? is it because your govt does EVERYTHING in her power to hang on to it by denying on all accounts? Is it because your govt is afraid if they admit to the truth, they will left homeless and without identity??? The answers are obvious by your post… 

    But slight correction.. Armenians dont’ wipe out people MONASTRAS.. you got us confused with your ancestors….   

    I have a suggestion Monastras…below is your comment.. why don’t you use this and make it a rule.. because Turkey is in dire need of change….
     
    I urge people to go out and stop this nonsence. They might enjoy to kill a few soldiers but The end result will be devastating for the community. I do not think anybody listens these sort of warnings. When they hit the wall they will understand but it will be too late. If we have primitive laws . Let’s change them

      

  349. Monastras, the tragedy is also an international crime.   And crimes have punishments.
     
    You say Armenians are doing all they can do to harm Turkey.  I say Turkey has done and continues to do all that it can do to harm Armenia.  What is worse than elimination of a nation from its homeland and denial of this fact?
     
    You say Armenians invaded Azerbaijan.  I say Armenians defended Artsakh from another genocide by Turks.
     
    You say Armenians are extreme nationalists who will wipe out Turkey and Azerbaijan if they have the chance.  I say Armenians have the right to defend themselves when attacked.  It is the Armenians who are maintaining the ceasefire with Azerbaijan despite several provocations by Azerbaijan.  Does this seem like a nation bent on its neighbors destruction?
     
    Nationalism to you is a dirty word.  To us, it is fighting for survival against destructive forces who want you to fade away quietly like so many forgotten people.
     
    Peace is easier than you think.  It begins with recognizing the right of all people to self-determination.  Those who impose their power on others, invite rebellion.
     
    You believe that Armenian wants to take what belongs to Turkey.  I say Armenians wants what was ours by virtue of history and acknowledged as ours by arbitration in the Treaty Sevres.  
     
     

  350. My sister Gayane,  This is for you.  You are the direct descendants of these women.

     http://jdemirdjian.com/Armenians/armenian_women.html

  351. Gayane jan, The above address is right but unfortunately it didn’t work now when I tried it.

    When you google, try it under: Armenian Women  

  352. Monastras,if fighting for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide committed by your forefathers,or seeking justice for my innocent murdered family & compatriots,or dreaming of our lost lands grabbed from us by murder & ethnic cleansing or defending Artsakh in this case is being a nationalist, then I am the father of all nationalists.
    Scattered around the four corners of the world,being brought up with so many different languages & cultures how come that all Armenians are so unified when it concerns the Armenian Genocide?Could so many millions of people be brain washed?What type of organisation do you need to achieve that when we hardly can agree about a simple bbq picnic?
    Firstly try to convince the honourable Turkish intellectuals including Mr. Orhan Pamuk & then us.
    Don’t you think that you are the result of the famous facsist Turkish education?Don’t you think that you are brainwashed?Repetition is very tiring.Question yourself a bit.

  353. Seervart jan-…what is the story about? i tried to google Armenian Women but i get a great deal of links and don’t know what to look at… I really want to read what you proposed..:)

    Mersi my sister…

    Boyajian jan- apres quyrs.. well said 

    Gayane

  354. Gayane jan, It is too bad you couldn’t find the site.  It is about our very brave heroic women of the past as Sultan Simian, Serpouhi Yanekian-Asdghig, Mariam Chilingirian, Yeghisapeth Najarian-Yotneghparian, Khanem Ketenjian and Sose Mayrig who fought with her husband Serop aghpur and her gorunner (Hagop and Samson).  These women were our rare and our very brave women who joined the Fedayi men to save the Armenian population from slaughter by the Turkish thugs and the Kurds.  In the past and until today our women are not afraid to send their very young sons to fight the enemy for our nation’s survival.  Gayane you remind me of our rare but very brave women of the past and of present who stood behind their men and their sons in the Artsakh war as well.  You seem to me to have the same heart and vigor of these brave and dedicated women for our nation, for our national pride and for our great cause. 

    The site is put out it seems

  355. Gayane jan, The site is put out by Demirdjian, The Armenian Women.

  356. well said Seervart:  Turks definitely want to take control of Europe.

    well said  Boyajian:  for Turks,  others’  Nationalism is bad; Turkish Nationalist is good.

  357. avatar Darwin Jamgochian // August 22, 2011 at 8:08 pm // Reply

    Am I reading some of these posts correctly? Armenians are doing harm to Turkey?
    !
    1. Just who closed the border?
    2. Just who confiscated Armenian properties?
    3. Just who dictates the Armenian Church in Turkey?
    4. Who refuses to follow through on the protocols?
    5. Who will not open their archives?
    6. Who spends more on lobbying in America over genocide issues?

  358. VTiger, Abris! Very well said.  How true, we don’t agree about the parties and the organizations we belong to or what to cook on the bbq day; but when the talk comes about the Armenian Genocide there is no Armenian that doesn’t agee the horrible faith that befell our nation in 1915 and beyond, thanks to the Turkish government’s premeditated murders and atrocities.  And like Boyajian said it also, shouldn’t we be patriotic and nationalistic after all that?  Especially when the Genocide is still ongoing because of the Turks’ denials.

  359. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 22, 2011 at 10:28 pm // Reply

    Seervart jan, I drink to that. It takes a person like Gayane to appreciate Gayane.

  360. Seervart jan…i am truly touched.. shnorakalutyun… bayts gitem vor du yev bolor mer hayuhiner@ unenq nuyn uj yev karoxutyunna.. menq bolors el nuynnenq… Astvats pahi mez bolorin vor karoxananq pahel mer hayreniq@… yes hpart em qezanov yev bolorov vor mer het en…

    Darwin jan- BINGOOOOOOOOO.. well said…

    Gayane

  361. Papken jan, Thank you my friend you touched me.  It seems to me that yourself and many of our fine compatriots in here are made from the very same mold “gaghabar”.  I appreciate and I love all of you like my kin brothers and sisters.  Poloret shad abrik!

  362. Gayane jan, Vochinch, iraganutioun en polor esadsneres!

    Darwin, Thank you for your comment, you put it well my friend!

  363. Boyajian

    Why do you think that  tragedy is an international crime? For example If I walk on the verge of a cliff and fall over, this is would be my tragedy. Is this an international crime?  

    By the way, I want to go back to Mongolia but I have no money. Would you be kind enough to organise my removel? So I am sure this will be the beginning. So many people will follow me 

  364. Monastras— you said:

    Why do you think that  tragedy is an international crime? For example If I walk on the verge of a cliff and fall over, this is would be my tragedy. Is this an international crime? 

    Well the truth of this statement is this: it is absurt to begin with but not surprised.. Second, if you do fall of a cliff, it would not be tragedy..no.. it would be sad though… so go for it if you feel like it….. however, when Turkish thugs and soldiers push thousands of innocent people off clifsf or those thousands innocent Armenian women with their children threw themselves off the cliff in order to die in more humane way than under your blood sucking and blood thirsty barbarian ancestors’ fangs.. now that IS A HUGE TRAGEDY..that is what we call a precursor to the premeditated GENOCIDE…  and YES it is an international crime.. NOW you get it?

    You said:   
    By the way, I want to go back to Mongolia but I have no money. Would you be kind enough to organise my removel? So I am sure this will be the beginning. So many people will follow me

    Your barbarian ancestors did not have money, nor clothes on their back or the concept of what civilization is, so why do you need money to go back to where your ancestors came from? if you start walking now, you will probably end up where your geneological pool started and we will all be great and dandy.. we will all be on our own righfully owned lands… don’t you think??…   

  365. avatar ragnar naess // August 23, 2011 at 4:41 pm // Reply

    I believe you misunderstand what  I about motive. my point is that if the Armenian guerilla was dangerous from a military point, it gave th ittihadiswts a motive for getting rid of armenians. This is an argument that the ittihadists har genocidal intent, they had a clear motive. In investigations of crime if a suspect has motive, the case qagainst this suspect is strenghtened.
    Monastras a catasrophy can also be a crime. One example: when Talat Pasha admts that he did not prosecutes many ofthose those who massacred Armenians, and did this for political reasons not to antagonise the kurds, what he admits is a crime of omission. This is covered in criminal law, especially if superiors fail to punish criminals.
    Gayane I admire your spirit and fight fr what you believe it, but you still are not able to relate to what I say  

  366.  
    Monastras, your comment contains a hint of sarcasm which suggests your question is insincere.  I have to assume you are kidding when you ask how was the tragedy that befell the Ottoman Armenians an international crime.  Like the Ambassador to Turkey, Mr. Ricchiardone, I say either you are lacking in education, or you must be joking.  
     
    But,  I will answer you according to my understanding of basic human rights and crimes against humanity:  Any government that removes an entire ethnic group from their homes without providing any supplies for their care or shelter, nor protection of women, children and elderly from the attacks of marauding thieves, rapists and murderers, and knowingly neglects to take actions to prosecute those who brutalize the innocent, is at the very least guilty of part C.) of the genocide convention:
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;


    You can’t possibly make a case that the government’s order to deport an entire ethnic population (primarily from interior villages that were nowhere near the war fronts) didn’t constitute a deliberate act of malicious neglect that resulted in the death of over a million peopleThe marches were ordered by the government, who willingly chose to neglect the needs of the innocent Armenian women, children and elderly that they deported.  The magnitude of these deaths and the lack of action to prevent them, points to intent to destroy in whole or in part….


    These people did not choose to walk along that cliff (literally or figuratively),  but some, after finding themselves forced beside it, willingly chose that death rather than the indignities that awaited them.  You may choose to walk beside a cliff of you own choice, and if you slip and fall it will be a tragedy, but no government put you there or endangered your nation, so, no, it is not an international crime.


    You will have to finance your own trip to Mongolia.  I will not try to stop you, but I am not asking you to go either.  I am simply asking you to face up to the evil that was done in your name and from which you benefit on a daily basis.  I am asking you to deal responsibly with the crime that your nation committed against my nation and other Christians, to show remorse for these crimes and to make proper restitution.

     

  367. ooohhh Gayane, that was so mean…you shouldn’t have asked Ms. Monastras to walk back. I will make the down payment for a horse. It’s more comfortable and she will get there a lot quicker. We Armenians are compassionate people.
     

    Seriously though, Monastras Khanum, how about hitting all the wealthy Turk industrialists for the money ? You know that  the original source of their wealth is the stolen wealth of exterminated Armenians. You didn’t know ? Well then, here are a couple of excerpts from an article @TodaysZaman:
     
    [‘Once the new regime did away with its Greeks and Armenians, transferring their assets to Turkish (Sunni) Muslim and Kurdish (Sunni) Muslim communities,…’] (emphasis mine)

    [‘In fact, today, the source of the Turkish bourgeoisie’s wealth is Armenian and Greek property, although books on Turkish economic history never mention this,” he said.’] (emphasis mine)   

    You can read the rest of the article at TodaysZaman. Title is: “Armenian, Syriac and Kurdish questions should be taken as a whole” (22 May 2011, Sunday / E. BARIŞ ALTINTAŞ, İSTANBUL )
     
    For guests who are not familiar with the poster Monastras may get the impression that we  Armenians  are being mean to her.
     
    This is who this person is: {[Guest - Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust] (posted   @Hurriyet)}
     
     
    Anyone who insults us by insulting our murdered ancestors will get no consideration here.

     

  368. Monastras, that first answer was my long answer.
     
    My second answer is much shorter:  A normal human being would never need to ask such a question.  You are demonstrating the effects of the unexamined dark side of Turkish society and genocide denial which has hampered your ability to feel compassion for the loss of others and the humility to admit your (nation’s) faults.  But it is not too late.

  369. Monastras, back to the cliff.   In a way your government has placed you beside a metaphorical ‘valley of idiocy’ which you are already slipping into every time you choose to repeat the nonsense which blames the victims for their own demise.  If the CUP had simply arrested and detained those Armenians who actively rebelled against the government, most people would  say, they were within their rights.  But the CUP turned their wrath on an innocent population and sent them to the desert to die.  How do you deny this?  Where are the Armenians who were in the millions until 1915?  Don’t let foolish Turkish pride leave you blind.

  370. Ragnar- we all due respect.. but you are not someone any of us can relate to.. in any case, as I pointed out in my last comment to you on this discussion..: what you said below was absolutely Anti-Armenian and harsh… are you saying your motive was not to instigate such a matter??????  Are you denying that you are a closet Turkish denialist friend????
    naess
    August 21, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    monastras
    I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important

  371. Avery jan-  you are soo right.. I am sorry.. I was a bit harsh.. 

      My apologies Monastras.. I am willing to finance your trip to Mongolia as well… ohhhhhhhhhhhh but wait.. the money i could have had if my ancestors wealth, i could have helped you.. but all that was stripped from my ancestors by your ancestors and your current govt Monastras.. that wealth is being used to its fullest extent by the descendents of those robbers and murderors… so guess you have to go see your President Monastras.. Hey but i was willing to give a hand….Guess youhave to walk unless Avery is nice enough to give you a horse…

    Gayane

  372. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 23, 2011 at 7:51 pm // Reply

     
    “In investigations of crime if a suspect has motive, the case qagainst [against] this suspect is strengthened [strengthened].”

    Ranger Naness, in the civilized nation’ criminal laws. motive is not one of the elements of the
    crimes. Prosecution does not have to prove motive of defendant. A suspect is not a defendant. Turks are the defendants of their crime of genocide against Armenian children, who no human being has right to treat them like an enemy. If he or she does, then he or she would have lost his or her privilege to be called by his or her kinds, a human being. Turk Nation has lost its privilege to be called a nation. Likewise, a police officer on duty who has committed a crime; he would lose his status as officer because he or she has committed a crime under color of law.
    Only reason that the Republic of Turkey is member of the United Nation is that UN is not the union of nations, it is union of states. Furthermore, we are not at the stage of investigation of the genocide against Armenian children, we are at the stage of sentencing and punitive sanctions of state of Republic of Turkey and et al.

  373. Avery jan- wanted to add another post to your list……this is just too important not to mention.I would ask everyone to pay attention to the last sentence (underlined)
    Monastras says:
    Comment:
    Gayane,
    Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?
    We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal.

  374. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 23, 2011 at 8:07 pm // Reply

    “…our fine compatriots in here are made from the very same mold “gaghabar”. ”

    Seervart jan, I wanted to make sure you and all other Armenians to know that there is no more powerful weapon than idealogy!   That is why victory belong to us!

  375. Papken:  I believe Seervart meant ‘made from the same mold’ as in pouring molten metal into a mold, Կաղապար, not Գաղափար.
    Just the same, you are right: no more powerful weapon than ideology.

    Gayane: although underlining is shown as an option @AW post-entry, it gets discarded after you submit.

  376. Papken jan,
    “Seervart jan, there is no more powerful weapon than ideology!”

    How true Papken, how true!  Ever since that I could remember, I have always been that person who lived all her life with an ideology.  The great cause to save the world and with it our one and only Armenia !!!!!

  377. Papken jan, You know, when our Fedayis were fighting in Artsakh, they were all fighting with the greatest belief that they were doing the right thing as their country belonged to them from time immemorial, it was part of their blood and it was and is part of their existence.  That’s why they won.   They won with that same ideology that you and I are speaking about, and the outcome as history knows it…. We Won and we shall Win Again!!!!!

  378. ԿՓԱՓԱԳԻՄ ՀԱՅԵՐԵՆ ԿԱՐԴԱԼ ԱՅՍ ՀՈԴՎԱԾԸ

  379. The party line is showing its hand here in a rather obvious way…blame the victim…this ‘tragedy’, aka, the genocide, was the fault of the murdered people, not of those who weilded the bayonets and swords. There seems to be no acknowledgment of the massive power of the Ottoman empire’s army and its ability to mobilize paid surrogates (aka, Kurds), to carry out raids against Armenians. In an unstable situation, where a government or ruling group feels threatened and is bankrupt, it is rather easy for almost anyone to be lured into participating in the evil deeds that comprise genocide. Propaganda aimed at the targets is on the rise and the masses of uneducated, poor people are then convinced that they themselves are the victims…it is called transference and can be very convincing and successful as a strategy. 

    Almost 100 years later, we, as Armenians, if we want to change hearts and minds in Turkey, need to realize that several generations there have been fed a steady stream of anti-Armenian propaganda, that includes ignoring the (overall positive) Armenian contribution to their country’s history and culture, and focusing on the tiny fraction of Armenians who justifiably took up arms in self-defense after years of abuse, massacre and oppressive taxation. The only way to do this is with honest education, facts and discussion, because hard truth is much stronger than any threat or insult you can throw in their direction.  Like young Arabs across the Muslim world who want to throw off the shackles of dictatorship, many young Turks are hungry for and want the truth – not the set of lies put forth by the inheritors of the CUP.

     

  380. I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth. I can  understand that you want to impose your ideas on to the other people. I get the impression that you aren’t ready to coexist with Turks in the eastern Anatolia. As far as I can understand from your words either you will remove the Turks or other way around.Would you prefer to live with Turks in Turkey or live in USA which is a free country? Would you prefer to  speak Turkish which is a primitive language or speak an international language? Would you prefer to earn $400 in Turkey or $1500 a month in USA? 

    I was joking when I said please finance my removal. Thank you for your offer anyway. I will buy a donkey to ride. 

  381. There was this mythical
    paradise called Ottoman Empire, where Christians and Muslims lived happily as
    equals.

    Turks, whom the indigenous Armenians had invited to come in from their homeland
    near the Altai Mountains, treated their gracious hosts with great respect and
    love. Armenian boys, girls, and young women were lovingly abducted and
    subjected to …. lovemaking.

     

    Avery, we don’t need
    nonsense hate and discrimination stories, fact is that  peaceful times were available for centuries.
    Turks respected Armenians and treated them well and Armenians respected the
    Turks as well. When Anatolia became home to the Turks, the Armenians benefited
    from the just, humane, tolerant and unifying traditions and beliefs of their
    new Turkish neighbors, it can even be called the golden age of Armenians. You
    should read also none biased and none hatred books, blogs, you should read
    books and reports that tell the truth. Only this will give peace, to all of us.
    Of course there were bad and horrible times, but for both communities it was
    horrible, both sides did wrong things, that you can’t deny. But just don’t try to
    exaggerate and distort the facts and stories please, this is no help. Otherwise
    it’s seems to me through demonizing the Turks you try to gather support until
    you have the means to get what you want, I SAY a BIG NO to IT. Through manipulation
    you will get nothing but only more unnecessary hatred, a nice future that you
    guys are planting. In fact I would like to see a peaceful good neighborly future, but how when so many radicals hate Turks.

  382. Why do we look like Turks??? We DONT look like TUrks.. .Turks look like US… unfortunately, indigenous Armenian race was fair skin and light eyes..  you know why this dynamic changed over?? ummmmmmm….welllll… knowing that your capacity of true history is limited or simply just not there, i would say because of rape, forceful marriages and adbuctions of beautiful Armenian women by your barbaric ancestors…

    Madam Gayane,  
    The only barbaric things I see are ugly hatred, nothing else. But we are not surprised, growing up with manipulated and exaggerates stories about Turks some finding pleasure by it (Avery,Gayane), one should not wonder. I wished you had more humanity in yourself. Our ancestors the Seljuk’s were more successful than Byzantine that is all; you don’t need to call others barbaric because you had no good history (Before controlled by others, not independent for centuries). At least for centuries we lived in peace, go through proper history. Calling Seljuk’s as
    barbaric and uncivilized is just hatred and ignorance, the Seljuk empire was a vast empire and with high civilization, and with strong military power.

  383. Your personal feelings have no bearing on facts.  Your personal doubt or conviction has no factual value. Obviously you did not read the article @TodaysZaman by İsmail Beşikçi (an ethnic Turk BTW).
     
    Just the same, I’ll refer you to an article right here: http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/08/11/gunaysu-denial/
     
    Here is the relevant paragraph:
     
    [ I once more quote from Confiscation and Destruction: “Commerce in the interior was heavily Armenian in the east (and Greek in the west), even though Turks were also involved in domestic trade. For example, in 1884, of the 110 merchants in the north-eastern provincial capital Trabzon, for domestic and international trade a vital port city, 40 were Armenian and 42, Pontic Greek. According to a 1913 study on Anatolia by the Armenian parliamentarian and writer Krikor Zohrab, of the 166 importers, 141 were Armenians and 13, Turks. Of the 9,800 shopowners and craftsmen, 6,800 were Armenians and 2,550, Turks; of the 150 exporters, 127 were Armenians and 23 Turks; of the 153 industrialists, 130 were Armenians and 20 were Turks; and finally, of the 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians. In the six eastern provinces, 32 Armenian moneylenders plied their trade versus only 5 Turkish ones. On the eve of the genocide, in early 1915, of the 264 Ottoman industrial establishments, only 42 belonged to Muslims and 172 to non-Muslims. 5  ]  (emphasis mine)
     
     
    Your blind hatred for Armenians and your belief in the  Turks’  inherent (alleged) genetic superiority clearly shows in this sentence: I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth.’ Obviously, uneducated Armenian peasants, who were eking out a sustenance existence under the benevolent gaze and tutelage of their intellectually superior Turk masters could not possibly have been anything but farm animals on two legs. And clearly the delusion that those things could possibly have had accumulated any wealth at all is a ‘fabrication by defeated Armenians’. (don’t you like that phrase ?)

  384. Armenians have ALWAYS been superior in their intellect, culture, arts,
    music, trade than Turks.. maybe after you realize this much, then you will understand why your ancestors attempted to wipe out a race tha they were intimidated of…so don’t act like the Ottomans allowed Armenians to be rich businessmen, or built churches and schools…. so you stand corrected on this statement ….
    I’ll try to help and advice you, no one is superior then the other. Have a good character be a good person and live in peace with your environment that makes someone superior not the things
    you are claiming. Second, anyone who studies and is devoted to education will
    get knowledge, because God / Allah gave humans the capability to learn and to
    read. So you should stop, being purely nationalistic. Further intellectuals from the Armenian side were available no one denies that, and we appreciate that as well, but they  don’t need to be
    used and hijacked by you in order to make yourself superior as the so called ‘True Armenian’, you don’t respect even moderate and friendly thinking Armenians. Even though you live maybe in the US or other places it seems that you have not received the basic modern attitude and education in today’s World. That is respect for all people. A barbaric attitude is displayed here against Turks
    but of course I know where the fault lies , not by you but by the barbaric Turks.
    Thanks for remindingJ I guess the bad weather is also because of the barbaric Turks

  385. avatar Armenian Highlands (aka Avery) // August 24, 2011 at 10:10 am // Reply

    Anadolu: one of my capable compatriots will respond to your post forthwith, by my leave. 
    I need to take a short break.

  386. Joseph,
    A mixed culture brings more traditions together, no one will deny that and of course Armenians same as Greeks have a nice cuisine culture. I once ate the rice from Kazakhs and East
    Turkistan people; they had almost the same food as in today’s Turkey. Rice prepared with butter, but they use definitely more butter than we use in Turkey. Or Izgara/Grill very famous in Turkey, they made the same things, so it seems that we still have the same cuisines as our ancestors. Please don’t forget the Tatars and Khazars, (Khazars adopted in the 5 or 6th century Judaism)
    which were the only Turkish tripe to adopt Judaism, I guess. And don’t forget also the Turks who migrated to today’s Hungary. So what we learn from this, migration is a human attitude. Some did it before some later.

  387. That priest had every right to notify outside forces about the situation. Where else could he turn, the Ottoman authorities? The ones that were committing this crime? Would you trust
    a government that is terrorizing your people?
    Dear Joseph
    From that report I tried to show that the priest exaggerated a lot and thereby he tried to manipulate the authorities in order to get support against the Ottoman government. We all know the falsified and untrue stories and how dangerous they can be for a country, for instance the attack on Iraq 2003, the so called WMD were never found, WMD were a pretext in order to invade Iraq.

  388. Andolu, please.  You are confusing long periods where minorities ‘accepted’ a life as second class citizens  as periods of ‘peace’ in the Ottoman empire.  There is a difference between true respect between equals and what is mistaken as respect between superiors and their subordinates who do what they must to protect themselves and their families from retribution.  If there was true respect between Turks and the ‘minorities’ in the empire, there would have been equal laws and equal opportunities.  There wasn’t.
     
    When subordinated people become enlightened to their basic human rights and begin to aspire to live as equal citizens within their society, the dominant group has two choices:  to adapt their attitudes and their laws and mores to accept this change; or to increase repression even to the point of violence.  It is clear which choice the CUP government made.  
     
    Andolu, you believe a myth of a golden period which falsely glorifies the Ottoman empire.  This myth does not honestly acknowledge the abuse of minority groups in the empire.  How can you ignore the many massacres against Armenians other minorities and claim a ‘golden period.’  Armenians had a “golden period” in the 5th century, while Turks were still marauding in the Altai mountains.  We were building architectural marvels while your ancestors were living in tents and caves.  You need to read history from non-Turk, independent sources to understand what your people destroyed, what you claimed for yourselves, who built your empire,  and who you subjugated.  
     
    There is a reason that Turks feel they are being denigrated and criticized.  You are.  You are because you fail to face the truth about your history of abuse of power and unwillingness to let people choose their own identities.    You want to be accepted by pluralistic societies but are intolerant of pluralism in your own land and unwilling to pay for the abuses against others.  Hrant Dink died trying to teach you this and Orhan Pamuk has been forced to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life rather than be exalted as a great writer in his homeland.
     
    I don’t know if there ever was a true golden period anywhere, but I don’t think that the years when Ottomans subjugated Christian minorities was golden, nor do I think this modern republican period in which Turks tried to artificially assert that these lands belonged to Turks is golden.  Far from it.
     

  389. Karekin,I’m touched & you’ve expressed it beautifully.Hope that our Turkish commentators grasp what you’ve written & question themselves.Their position is not easy.

  390. Anadolu,occupation & slavery was not our golden age.We always lived as 2nd class citizens,with fear & were always scapegoats…Comparatively this period of time was heaven compared with the Genocide.So before & after Genocide.Since we are in the period of after Genocide we are still awaiting for justice & instead we only get denial & this is considered as another Genocide.

  391. avatar ragnar naess // August 24, 2011 at 12:30 pm // Reply

    I think it is fair to say that Armenians on the  whole during the Ottoman centuries led a faitly good existence if you compare with other groups. It was also characterised by what you call status incongruity, I berlieve. While Muslims were regarding as the ruling class (millet.i hakimiye, wasnt it? )the Armenians were overrepresenated among the richers layers of the society

  392. Aweeeeeeeeeeeee. so much brotherly and sisterly love is shared from Anadolu and Monastras.. oh my… too much to handle.. truly…. we are touched by your kindness and your love…

    Anadolu– you said
    but for both communities it was horrible, both sides did wrong things, that you can’t deny

    I am sorry, I must have misread or gotten the wrong information about the history because no where it said Armenians did wrong to Turks  INTENTIONALLY!!!!.. Please do provide sources where it specifically states that the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population took arms against Turks, where women, children and elderly organized secret organizations to go after ordinary Turks, where Armenians took all the wealth, property and made them theirs.. please do provide… i am curious to read this myself…please make sure to name the authors and the books..

    You said: When Anatolia became home to the Turks, the Armenians benefited
    from the just, humane, tolerant and unifying traditions and beliefs of their
    new Turkish neighbors

    Please provide a source where it specifically says Armenians benefited from the group of people who had no identity, no culture, no civilization, no wealth, and no place among more advanced nations…. you do know where your ancestors came from right?? either you know it but act dumb or you don’t know it;  which makes it even worst because if one has no idea yet comments anyway, he or she truly puts a HUGE spotlight on how much he or she lacks in knowledge..either way… until you produce something where it shows Turks brought what Armenians did not have before Turks arrival to our lands and created such paradise for Armenians that no other nation saw or experienced, I would suggest you keep your mouth shot…Thank you very much……

    You said:
    But just don’t try to
    exaggerate and distort the facts and stories please, this is no help. Otherwise
    it’s seems to me through demonizing the Turks you try to gather support until
    you have the means to get what you want, I SAY a BIG NO to IT.

    That is right Anadolu.. you are absolutely right.. Your govt shoved lies in your heads for so long that you can’t distinguish between what is right and what is wrong. to the degree where you blame the victims for your ancestors bloody deeds.. to the degree where you can’t wake up from your amnesia.. so yes i say STOP demonizing ARmenians to try to make them bunch of liars to cover up for the murder of 1.5-2 million innocent people, so yes I say STOP exaggerating and distorting history to fit into your govt cover ups..one day everything will burst open..so why not come out of your closets??? only guilty will do everything in their power such as paying millions and millions of dollars to politicians and threatens others in order to keep the lies and the skeleton in the closet (aka TUrkish govt plus their denialists followers).. how do you explain that???? i bet you can’t.. so instead of preaching to those who know WHAT HAPPENED.. why don’t you preach to your other denialists close Neo-Ottoman mentality friends…

    Until Armenians get justice for all the innocent souls your barbaric ancestors took as well as our property and wealth, you can’t and will not be living amongst us who know what true humanity is… and know what it means love thy neighbor….

    Gayane       
      

  393. Please explain your point, Ragnar?  So some Armenians learned how to be successful despite the circumstance of being second class citizens.  And some Armenians lived well.  Does this negate the lack of equal rights and protections under the law of the minorities?  Does this invalidate the aspirations for self-determination that emerged among Armenians as it had in other nation groups in the empire?  Does this on some level excuse any of the brutality that was employed to “quiet” their demands.
     

  394. Monastras:

    You said:
    I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth. I can  understand that you want to impose your ideas on to the other people. I get the impression that you aren’t ready to coexist with Turks in the eastern Anatolia.

    I guess if Armenians were peasants when your babarian ancestors did not even know how to build an actual home, then why did the Ottomans (if they were such rich, and mighty Empire) systematically murder, rape, mutilate and deporte 1.5-2 million innocent people??? It would not be for the Armenians’ poor, broken down homes, or for their poor pocket books or for the dry and unproductive lands, or for their ugly and crumbling churches or for their lack of education/intelligence…..would it??? hmmmmm if that is the case, i can’t IMAGINE why your barbarian ancestors would go in so much trouble carrying out a Genocide if they had nothing to gain by disposing of the Armenians. you making such a statement really shows your lack of education and understanding… can you say “huhh???? what?? who am I? where am I? MOnastras…   

    You said:
    I was joking when I said please finance my removal. Thank you for your offer anyway. I will buy a donkey to ride.
     
    nooooooooooooooooooo reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy???? bummer.. and i thought you were serious…oh well…

    Monastras.. you can’t be riding a donkey.. you are worth more than that… are not you?? you are someone who is worthy of a horse and Avery was nice enough to offer a down payment for it.. we can’t let you suffer like that…donkey’s are cute and dandy but the trip would be too rough.. it is not cool… no.. can’t have that.. sorry…

    Gayane     

  395. Abris Boyajian, Very well said and I couldn’t agree with you more!!!

  396. Ragnar: really??? really?? you really know this because you lived in those times and you were friends with my ancestors?? did you have Armenian coffee and byorek with my great great grandparents and they told you all about the beautiful lives amongst the barbarians??? MINUS the ordinary and innocent Turks who were actually there to help the massacred Armenians.. wecan’t bow our heads to them because some risked their lives to protect Armenians and I am forever thankful to them… OR you have a HUGE bias when it comes to ARmenians and Turks… your statement below is YET ANOTHER perfect example how you view the Turkish side: loving, caring, humane, proper, always willing to help the poor minorities…this is why i believe you will never be a neutral party on these pages.. you are too lovey dovey toward Turks…..

    ragnar naess
    August 24, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    I think it is fair to say that Armenians on the  whole during the Ottoman centuries led a faitly good existence if you compare with other groups. It was also characterised by what you call status incongruity, I berlieve. While Muslims were regarding as the ruling class (millet.i hakimiye, wasnt it? )the Armenians were overrepresenated among the richers layers of the society

  397. avatar Papken Hartunian // August 24, 2011 at 3:55 pm // Reply

    Bedrosyan: Որոնվում է Lost հայերեն Եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցների Թուրքիայում

    Dear ՀԵՐՄԻՆԷ, this is Armenian translation of this article as you wished!
    By: Րաֆֆի Bedrosyan
    (Հայերեն շաբաթաթերթ) – Հուլիսի 21 – ին ԱՄՆ Ներկայացուցիչների պալատի Արտաքին գործերի կոմիտեն ընդունել է ճնշող մեծամասնությունը Բերմանը – Cicilline փոփոխությունը հիման վրա վերադարձը եկեղեցիների ներկայացուցիչների կողմից բանաձեւի spearheaded Ed Royce ու Հովարդ Բերմանը, որի համար 43 – ից մինչեւ 1 – ին, կոչ անելով Թուրքիային վերադառնալ գողացել հայերեն եւ այլ քրիստոնեական եկեղեցիներ, եւ վերջ ռեպրեսիաների իր քրիստոնյա փոքրամասնությունների.

    Հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915 թ.

    Որտեղ են այդ կորած կամ գողացված հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում. Ինչպես շատերն էին այնտեղ մինչեւ 1915 թ շրջադարձային հայերի աշխարհը, երբ նրանք էին uprooted եւ wiped դուրս իրենց հայրենիքում ավելի քան 3000 տարի. Քանի եկեղեցի կա հիմա. Հաշվի առնելով, որ յուրաքանչյուր համայնք հայերեն invariably strove է կառուցել դպրոցի կողքին իր եկեղեցին, թե շատ հայերեն դպրոցներ կան Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915, եւ թե շատ կան հիմա? Քանի հայերեն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են մնացել կանգնած այժմ Թուրքիայում ավելի հեշտ է մի հարցի `ընդամենը 34 եկեղեցի եւ 18 դպրոցներում այսօր մեկնել է Թուրքիա, հիմնականում Ստամբուլում, մոտ քիչ, քան 3000 ուսանողների շրջանում այդ դպրոցներում: Որ դժվարին ու ողջ դառնությունն այն է, թե հարցը շատ կային նախկինում.

    Վերջին ուսումնասիրությունները ցցիկներ թիվը հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայի առաջ 1915 – ին, ժամը մոտ 2,300. Այդ դպրոցների թիվը մինչեւ 1915 – ը գնահատվում է մոտ 700, իսկ 82,000 ուսանողների. Այս թվերը են միայն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ իրավասության տակ Ստամբուլի հայերեն պատրիարքարանի եւ առաքելական սուրբ եկեղեցու, եւ, հետեւաբար, չեն ներառում է բազմաթիվ եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ պատկանող բողոքական եւ կաթոլիկ հայերեն parishes. Ամերիկյան քոլեջների եւ դպրոցների միսիոներ, հիմնականում մասնակցում են երիտասարդները հայերեն են նաեւ բացառեց այդ թվերը. Թիվը հայերեն յաճախող ուսանողներու թուրքական դպրոցները, կամ փոքր դպրոցներ են տները գյուղերում անհայտ են, եւ ներառված չէ: Վերջապես, այդ թվերը չեն ներառում եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են Կարսի եւ Արդահանի մարզերում, որոնք չեն կազմում Թուրքիայի մինչեւ 1920, եւ մի մասը Ռուսաստանին, քանի որ 1878 թ.

    Հայերեն դպրոցների Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915 թ.

    Երկու քարտեզները ցույց են տալիս լայն տարածում հայերեն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ Թուրքիայի առաջ 1915 թ. Երկու ցուցակները համար հայերեն եկեղեցիներն ու դպրոցները ոչ մի կերպ ամբողջական, բայց պետք է համարվեն որպես նախնական ուսումնասիրությունը, որը կարող է ծառայել որպես հիմք հետագա հետազոտություններ: Տեղը անունները հիմնված են հին օսմանյան վարչական համակարգում, փոխարեն որ ժամանակակից Թուրքիան. Նրանք հավաքվել են վարպետորեն Zakarya Mildanoglu, տարբեր աղբյուրներից, ինչպես օրինակ `Օսմանյան հայերեն ազգային խորհրդի տարեկան հաշվետվություններ, Էջմիածին ամսագրի Վիեննայի Mkhitarists, եւ ուսումնասիրություններ են Teotig, Գեւորգյան, եւ Nishanyan.

    Կորսված Եկեղեցիներ

    Ադանա: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Yureghir, Ջեյհան, Tarsus, Silifke, Yumurtalik, Dortyol, Iskenderun, 25 եկեղեցի

    Amasya: Vezirkopru, Mecitozu, Merzifon, Havza, Gumushacikoy, Ladik, 15 եկեղեցի

    Անկարա. Կենտրոն, Haymana, Sincan, 5 եկեղեցիների

    Antakya. Կենտրոն, Samandagh, 7 եկեղեցի

    Antep. Կենտրոն, Nizip, Halfeti, 4 եկեղեցի

    Arapkir (Մալաթիա) Arapkir եւ Kemaliye գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

    Arganimadeni (Elazig) Erganis, Siverek, Bulanik, Kahta, 10 եկեղեցի

    Արմաշի (Akmeshe): 2 եկեղեցիները

    Artvin: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

    Բալըքեսիր: Բալըքեսիր, Mustafakemalpasha, Biga, Bandirma, 6 եկեղեցիների

    Bayburt: Bayburt կենտրոն ու գյուղերում, 34 եկեղեցի

    Beshiri (Դիարբեքիր) Beshiri ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

    Bilecik (Բուրսա) Golpazar, 4 եկեղեցի

    Bingol (Genc): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

    Բիթլիս: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 30 եկեղեցի

    Բիթլիս: Tatvan, Ahlat, Mutki, Hizan, 66 եկեղեցի

    Բոլու: Duzce, Akyazi, 5 եկեղեցիների

    Բուրսա. Կենտրոն, Orhangazi, 11 եկեղեցի

    Charsancak (Թունջելին) Mazgirt, pertek, Pulumur, Hozat, եւ գյուղեր, 93 եկեղեցի

    Chemishgezek (Թունջելին): 20 եկեղեցիները

    Chungush (Դիարբեքիր) Chungush կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, 2 եկեղեցի

    Դերսիմի: Hozat, Pertek, 28 եկեղեցի

    Divrigi (Sivas) կենտրոնի ու գյուղեր, 25 եկեղեցի

    Diyadin (Էրզրում): Diyadin ու գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

    Դիարբեքիրի `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

    Էդիրն: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

    Egin (Erzincan) Kemaliye, Ilic, եւ գյուղեր, 17 եկեղեցի

    Egin: 3 եկեղեցիները

    Eleshkirt (Էրզրում): Eleshkirt ու գյուղեր, 6 եկեղեցիների

    Ergani: Ergani ու գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

    Erzincan: Erzincan կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, 52 եկեղեցի

    Էրզրում. Կենտրոն, Aziziye, Yakutiye, Ashkale, Narman, Ispir, Oltu, Shenkaya, Horasan, Pazaryolu, եւ գյուղեր, 65 եկեղեցի

    Giresun: Tirebolu, 1 եկեղեցի

    Gumushane. Կենտրոն, 4 եկեղեցի

    Gurun (Sivas): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, եկեղեցիներ 5

    Harput (Elazig) Harput կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, Karakochan, Palu, Keban, 67 եկեղեցի

    Hinis (Էրզրում): Hinis ու գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

    Hoshap: Hoshap ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

    Ստամբուլում: Եվրոպական / Trachean մարզի 36 եկեղեցիներ, ասիական / Անատոլիական շրջանում, 8 եկեղեցիներ, ընդհանուր 44 եկեղեցի

    Իզմիր: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Manisa, Turgutlu, Akhisar, Bergama, Nazilli, Odemish, 23 եկեղեցի

    Izmit: Gebze, Kocaeli, Sakarya, Kandira, Geyve, Karamursel, 50 եկեղեցի

    Kastamonu: Tashkopru, Boyabat, Inebolu, 7 եկեղեցի

    Կայսրի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Nigde, Aksaray, ԲՈՐ, Nevshehir, Tomarza, Develi, Bunyan, Talas, 57 եկեղեցի

    Kemah (Erzincan) Kemah ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

    Kighi (Bingol) Kighi ու գյուղեր, 58 եկեղեցի

    Կոնիա: կենտրոն, ԲՈՐ, Burdur, Nevshehir, 7 եկեղեցի

    Kutahya. Կենտրոն, Tavshanli, 7 եկեղեցի

    Lice: Lice ու գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

    Մարդին: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 3 եկեղեցի

    Մուշում: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, սպասավոր, Malazgirt, Bulanik, Varto, Hizan, 148 եկեղեցի

    Ordu: Karaduz, Ulubey, 3 եկեղեցի

    Palu (Elazig) Palu կենտրոն, Kovancilar, Karakochan, եւ գյուղեր, 44 եկեղեցի

    Pasinler (Էրզրում): Pasinler ու գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

    Pulumur (Թունջելին) Pulumur ու գյուղեր, 6 եկեղեցիների

    Ռիզե: Yolusti, 1 եկեղեցի

    Սամսուն (Canik): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 43 եկեղեցի

    Սամսունում: Ordu, 1 եկեղեցի

    Shebin karahisar: Shebinkaya կենտրոն, Giresun, եւ մի մասը Sivas, 32 եկեղեցի

    Սիլվան (Դիարբեքիր): Սիլվան ու գյուղերում, 34 եկեղեցի

    Sivas: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Hafik, Զառա, Ulash, Yildizeli, Sariz, Bunyan / Ekrek, Gemerek, 110 եկեղեցի

    Tercan (Erzincan) եւ Erzincan Tercan գյուղեր, 33 եկեղեցի

    Tokat: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 32 եկեղեցի

    Տրապիզոնի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, եւ, Machka, Surmene, Akchaabat, Fatsa, Yorma, Arakli, 89 եկեղեցի

    Ուրֆայի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Birecik, Siverek, Suruch, Hikvan, Harran, Bozova, Halfeti, 17 եկեղեցի

    Վան `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Edremit, Gurpinar, Edremit, ozalp, Ercish, Timar, muradiye, Tatvan, Bashkale, Gevash, Bahchesaray, Chatak 322 եկեղեցի

    Yozgat: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Bogazliyan, Sarikaya, Cayiralan, Sorgun, Shefaatli, եւ գյուղեր, 51 եկեղեցի

    Yusufeli (Artvin): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերի եկեղեցիները: 4

    Զեյթուն (Մարաշ) `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում եկեղեցիներ 14

    Կորսված Դպրոցներ

    Ադանա: 25 դպրոցներ, 1.947 տղաները, 808 աղջիկներ, 2755 ուսանողներ, 40 արական, 29 իգական, 69 ուսուցիչներ

    Ախթամար: 32 դպրոցներ, 1.106 տղաները, 132 աղջիկներ, 1238 ուսանողներ, 36 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

    Amasya – Merzifon: 9 դպրոցներ, 1.524 տղաները, 814 աղջիկներ, 2.338 աշակերտներ, 54 ուսուցիչներ

    Անկարան: 7 դպրոցներում, 895 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 395, 1,290 ուսանողներ, 20 արական, իգական 9, 29 ուսուցիչներ

    Antakya, 10 դպրոց, 440 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 47, 487 աշակերտներ, 10 ուսուցիչներ արական

    Antep: 9 դպրոց, 898 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 798, 1606 ուսանողներ, 31 արական, 27 իգական, 58 ուսուցիչներ

    Arapkir: 18 դպրոց, 713 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 223, 936 ուսանողներ, 23 արական, իգական 2, 25 ուսուցիչներ

    Արմաշի: 2 դպրոց, 190 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 110, 300 ուսանողներ, 5 արական, 1 իգական, 6 ուսուցիչներ

    Bandirma: 8 դպրոցներում, 700 տղաներ, 644 աղջիկներ, 1.344 ուսանողներ, 22 արական, 13 իգական, 35 ուսուցիչներ

    Bayburt: 9 դպրոց, 645 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 199, 844 ուսանողներ, 27 արական, իգական 5, 32 ուսուցիչներ

    Beyazit: 6 դպրոցներ, 338 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 54, 392 ուսանողներ, 11 արական, իգական, 2, 13 ուսուցիչներ

    Bilecik `10 դպրոց, 1.120 տղաները, 143 աղջիկներ, 1.263 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, 3 իգական, 21 ուսուցիչներ

    Բիթլիս, 12 դպրոց, 571 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 63, 634 աշակերտներ, 20 ուսուցիչներ արական

    Բուրսա `16 դպրոց, 1345 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 733, 2078 ուսանողներ, 34 արական, 20 իգական, 54 ուսուցիչներ

    Charsancak `12 դպրոց, 617 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 189, 806 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, իգական 2, 18 ուսուցիչներ

    Chemishgezek `12 դպրոց, 456 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 272, 728 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

    Կիպրոս: 3 դպրոց, տղաների 63, 37 աղջիկ, 100 ուսանողներ, 8 արական, 1 իգական, 9 ուսուցիչ

    Darende: 2 դպրոց, 260 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 70, 330 ուսանողներ, 4 արական, 1 իգական, 5 ուսուցիչներ

    Divrigi `10 դպրոց, 757 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 100, 857 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 2, 20 ուսուցիչներ

    Դիարբեքիրում: 4 դպրոցների, 660 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 324, 1014 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 9, 27 ուսուցիչներ

    Egin: 4 դպրոցների, 541 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 215, 756 ուսանողներ, 13 արական, իգական 9, 22 ուսուցիչներ

    Erzincan: 22 դպրոցներ, 1389 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 475, 1864 ուսանողներ, 54 արական, իգական 9, 63 ուսուցիչներ

    Էրզրում `12 դպրոց, 485 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 10, 495 աշակերտներ, 12 ուսուցիչներ արական

    Էրզրում: 27 դպրոցներ, 1.956 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1.178, 3134 ուսանողներ, 44 արական, 41 իգական, 85 ուսուցիչներ

    Gurun `12 դպրոց, 736 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 78, 814 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 2, 20 ուսուցիչներ

    Harput: 27 դպրոցներ, 2.058 տղաները, 496 աղջիկներ, 2.554 ուսանողներ, 49 արական, իգական 9, 58 ուսուցիչներ

    Hinis: 8 դպրոցներում, 352 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 15, 367 ուսանողներ, 11 արական, 1 իգական, 12 ուսուցիչներ

    Ispir (artvin): 3 դպրոցներ, 80 տղաներ, 3 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

    Ստամբուլի: 40 դպրոցներ, 3.316 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 2.327, 5.643 ուսանողներ:

    Իզմիր: 27 դպրոցներ, 1.640 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1.295, 2.935 ուսանողներ, 55 արական, 54 իգական, 109 ուսուցիչներ

    Izmit: 38 դպրոցներ, 5,900 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 3.385, 9.285 ուսանողներ, 142 Արական, 82 իգական, 224 ուսուցիչներ

    Kastamonu, 3 դպրոց, 110 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 50, 160 ուսանողներ, 2 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

    Կայսրի: 42 դպրոցներ, 3.795 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1140, 4.935 ուսանողներ, 107 արական, 18 իգական, 125 ուսուցիչներ

    Kemah: 13 դպրոց, 646 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 28, 674 աշակերտներ, 16 ուսուցիչներ արական

    Kighi: 9 դպրոց, 645 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 199, 844 ուսանողներ, 27 արական, իգական 5, 32 ուսուցիչներ

    Կոնիա, 3 դպրոց, 213 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 137, 350 ուսանողներ, 6 արական, իգական 6, 12 ուսուցիչներ

    Kutahya `5 դպրոց, տղաների 825, 349 աղջիկներ, 1174 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, իգական 7, 23 ուսուցանում

    Լիմ եւ Gduts կղզիներ, Վան: 3 դպրոցների, 203 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 56, 259 ուսանողներ, 5 արական, 1 իգական 6 ուսուցիչների համար

    Մալաթիա, 9 դպրոց, տղաների 872, 230 աղջիկներ, 1.137 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, 3 իգական, 19 ուսուցիչներ

    Մարաշ: 23 դպրոցներ, 1.261 տղաները, 378 աղջիկներ, 1.669 ուսանողներ, 34 արական, 10 իգական, 44 ուսուցիչներ

    Մուշ: 23 դպրոցներ, 1.034 տղաները, 284 աղջիկներ, 1318 ուսանողներ, 31 արական, իգական 4, 35 ուսուցիչներ

    Palu: 8 դպրոցներում, 505 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 50, 555 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

    Pasen: 7 դպրոցներում, 315 տղաներ, 7 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

    Սամսուն (Canik) 27 դպրոցներ, 1.361 տղաները, 344 աղջիկներ, 1.705 ուսանողներ, 44 արական, 15 իգական, 59 ուսուցիչներ

    Shebinkarahisar: 27 դպրոցներ, 2.040 տղաները, 105 աղջիկներ, 2.145 ուսանողներ, 38 արական, իգական 4, 42 ուսուցիչներ

    Siirt: 3 դպրոցների, 163 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 84, 247 ուսանողներ, 9 արական, իգական 2, 11 ուսուցիչներ

    Սիս / Կիլիկիայում: 7 դպրոցներում, 476 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 165, 641 ուսանողներ, 15 արական, իգական 4, 19 ուսուցիչներ

    Sivas: 46 դպրոցներ, 4.072 տղաները, 459 աղջիկներ, 4.531 ուսանողներ, 62 արական, 11 իգական, 73 ուսուցիչներ

    Tokat: 11 դպրոցներ, 1.408 տղաները, 558 աղջիկներ, 1.966 ուսանողներ, 37 արական, 13 իգական, 50 ուսուցիչներ

    Տրապիզոն: 47 դպրոցներ, 2.184 տղաները, 718 աղջիկներ, 2.902 ուսանողներ, 72 արական, 13 իգական, 85 ուսուցիչներ

    Ուրֆայի: 8 դպրոցներում, 1.091 տղաները, 571 աղջիկներ, 1.662 ուսանողներ, 19 արական, իգական 7, 26 ուսուցիչներ

    Վան `21 դպրոցներ, 1.323 տղաները, 554 աղջիկներ, 1.877 ուսանողներ, 47 արական, 12 իգական, 59 ուսուցիչներ

    Yozgat: 12 դպրոցներ, 1.179 տղաները, 557 աղջիկներ, 1.736 ուսանողներ, 30 արական, 13 իգական, 43 ուսուցիչներ

    Զեյթուն `10 դպրոց, 605 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 85, 690 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

    Այս եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են կենդանի էակի արյուն էր Թուրքիայում: Այս շենքերը ականատես բազմաթիվ հայերի մկրտություններ, հարսանիքներից, թաղումներից եւ, նրանք ծառայել են որպես կրթական կենտրոններում, որտեղ ցանկանում տեղափոխվել ուսուցիչների գիտելիքներն են երեխաներին, եւ այդ շենքերի դարձան համայնքի հավաքը կենտրոններ ուրախ անգամ եւ սրբատեղիներ ընթացքում անհանգիստ ժամանակներում, մինչեւ դառը ավարտվելու է 1915 թ. Ինչպես հայերեն բնակչության ստացել wiped դուրս Անատոլիայի 1915 թվականին, այնպես էլ այդ եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ: Հետ միասին հարյուր հազարավոր տներ, խանութներ, տնտեսություն, պտղատու այգիներ, գործարանները, պահեստների, եւ հանքերի պատկանող հայերի, եկեղեցու եւ դպրոցների շենքերը նույնպես անհետացել են փոխարկվում կամ այլ օգտագործում. Եթե ​​այրված եւ ավերվել է 1915 թ. Բացահայտ կամ մնացել է վատթարանալ կողմից անփութության, նրանք դարձան փոխարկվում շենքերի բանկերի, ռադիոկայաններ, մզկիթներ, պետական ​​դպրոցների, կամ պետական ​​մենաշնորհ պահեստների համար ծխախոտի, թեյ, շաքար, եւ այլն, կամ պարզապես առանձնատներով եւ ախոռներ համար թուրքերի եւ քրդերի:

    Ներկայումս, դուրս է 34 ակտիվ հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում, միայն 6 մնացել են կանգնած են Անատոլիայում. Ամենամեծ Սուրբ Կիրակոս եկեղեցու այդ շենքերի Dikranagerd / Դիարբեքիրում, ամենամեծ հայերեն եկեղեցին Մերձավոր Արեւելքում, որն այժմ վերանորոգվում են որպես հայերեն եկեղեցին, իրավասության տակ Ստամբուլի պատրիարքարանի հայերեն. Գործընթացը կրկին պնդելով, ավելի քան 200 գործերի Կորցրած հողերի եւ գույքի պատկանող այս եկեղեցին նույնպես սկսվել. Նախագծի ֆինանսավորումը եւ շինարարական արդեն երկու – երրորդը ամբողջական, որի սպասվող եկեղեցու բացման եւ առաջին անգամ Սուրբ Պատարագ է, կատարվում է հոկտեմբերի 23, 2011 թ. Ներկայումս, ուխտագնացության շրջագայություններ են կազմակերպվում համար այս պատմական առիթով հետ մեկտեղ, այցելություններ այլ պատմական վայրերի Արեւելյան Թուրքիայում, օրինակ, Աղթամարի / Վան եւ Անի / Կարս, շարունակելով Հայաստան եւ Ջավախք: Ավելի շատ կլինեն այդ հայտարարությունները տուրեր մոտ ապագայում:

    Աղբյուրը `

    Zakarya Mildanoglu, Ակոս թերթի ապրիլի 22 – ին, 2011, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

    Օսմանյան հայերեն Ազգային խորհրդի տարեկան հաշվետվություններ 1910-1914, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

    Էջմիածին Journal, Երեւան, Հայաստան 1965-1966 բոլոր ամսագրերի

    Դոկտոր Հ. Համազասպ, հայերեն վանքեր Անատոլիայում, 9 ծավալները, Վիեննայի Մխիթարյան միությունը, 1940, Վիեննա, Ավստրիա

    Ռայմոնդ Գեւորգյանի եւ Փոլ Paboudjian, Les Arméniens dans L’կայսրության Օսմանյան à la veille du Հայոց ցեղասպանության (Հայերն Օսմանյան կայսրությունում Հայոց ցեղասպանության համար), Փարիզ, 1992 թ.

    Teotig Lapjinjian, Հայոց Koghkota (հայերեն Գողգոթա), 1923, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

    Vijagatsuyts, Kavaragan Azkayin Varjaranats Turkiyo, Dedr AB, Vicag 1901 Darvo (զեկույցը հայերեն դպրոցների Անատոլիայում (Թուրքիա), Բուկլետներ 1 – ին եւ 2, 1901 կարգավիճակից) հայերեն ազգային կրթության հանձնաժողովի Կենտրոնական տնօրինություն, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

    Սեւան Nishanyan, Adini Unutan Ulke (The երկիրն է, որ Մորացել իր անվանումը), Everest Press, 2010, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

  398. ragnar naess,  I always wondered what literature—primary or secondary—you, as (nominally) a third party observer, read to make the following irresponsible statement:  “it is fair to say that Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence.”  Do your readings into the subject include any other works than the ones by infamous McCarthy or Turkish distortionists? Or you read only a few dubious accounts that are in tune with your viewpoints? For instance, how can one interested in the subject not familiarize himself with Viscount Bryce’s A Summary of Armenian History up to and including the Year 1915? Bryce describes Armenians’ existence throughout the Ottoman centuries as follows: “They were not treated as citizens, because they were not even treated as men.” He states that “insecurity was the chronic condition of [Ottoman] Armenia”, that throughout centuries Armenians were considered rayah (‘cattle’, Tur.). Even when in the 19th century there occurred transformation from rayah to millet, Armenians, according to Bryce, have become “not yoke-oxen, but unshackled herds.” In all seriousness, whenever you read into the subject without prejudice (or even with prejudice knowing your favoritism towards the Turks), do you not come across this point repeated incessantly in many important foreign accounts?

  399. Once again….Armenians were still living on their own land after 5 – 6000 years!  If Armenians were ‘wealthy’, it was from the land, not from conquest. There is a big difference. Yes, Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule for quite a long time…no dispute there. They lived better than most subjugated peoples in other parts of the world. The question is….what happened in 1915?  Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?  Why did they turn against their most productive and loyal citizens?  This is the real question. Even the sultans didn’t go beserk in such a genocidal way, because they were smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication. But, the goons of the CUP did…tell us, why?  All the excuses offered really do not add up. They make no sense. I’m certain that intelligent Turks know this. Somehow, paid agents of the state keep pushing the same lame storyline in the western press, which shows that they will do anything for money – even lie about other people’s history and tragedy. These middlemen really need to be shamed for their dishonest behavior. Get rid of the ones carrying water for Turkey and this whole farce will dry up rather quickly.      

  400. “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule for quite a long time…no dispute there.” Well, there is dispute there, Karekin. Living well and be treated well are two different things. First of all, Armenians’ “well-being” was highly disproportional: while many urban Armenians were well-to-do, most of rural Armenians lived in poverty. When we say Turks appropriated our wealth by mass murdering and forcibly deporting our ancestors, we mean not only the actual wealth of the urban Armenians, but the properties of the rural population: their houses, their pastures, their cattle, their personal belongings, etc. But to say that “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule” is distorting. Those who lived “well”, mostly in the urban areas, secured their well-being not by the grace of Turks, but by their hard work, intrinsic wit, and industriousness. Nonetheless, for the Turks they were rayah and then millet: unprotected, voiceless, unrepresentative, and insecure. “Living well under the Ottoman empire” presupposes that the empire created favorable conditions for Armenians to live well. This is far from being the case. The only two “privileges” that Armenians had, were national language and restricted practice of religion. That Armenians were allowed to run businesses cannot be considered a favorable condition that Turks created for them, because, as you rightly stated, Turks were “smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication.” You forgot to add unbearably high taxes from the revenues of Armenian businesses.
     
    Re: “the question is what happened in 1915?” Well, it happened earlier, before the CUP. I hate it when some commentators here covertly or openly allude to ethnic composition of the CUP and put the blame on Ittihadists, conveniently forgetting that first mass murders of the Armenians, in which up to 300,000 Armenians perished, happened during the Sultan rule, not the CUP regime. This effectively explains that the genocidal insanity started earlier than 1915 and is not connected with the CUP only, but with the Turkish ghastly attitude towards the Armenians, in general.

  401. Sometimes the most obvious and simple answer is the right one.  You have heard it a million times already.

  402. DearGor, Iam glad you brought out Viscount Bryce’s notes.  Do you know the for instnace the famous “Khanasor Expedition” in Van, when the Arm. Revolutionary Federation left Van who were only there to protect the people from annihilations because the premediated murdering of the nation and the deportations has already started.  The Armenagans and the Henchagyans left the city to go to Persia and 800 unarmed civilians followed and went with them.  Although Tashnagtsoutyoun weren’t going to leave the city unarmed, but knowing the mind of the deceitful Seljuk Turks they send Bedo and 25 Fedayi      

  403. Gor jan, As my labtop is giving me problems to type, here goes the remainder of the “Khanasor Expedition” “Khanasori Arshavanke”:

    Tashnagtsoutyoun for protection they send Bedo with 25 Fedayis to run after the 800 unarmed civilian souls for protection when they were migrating to Persia to be able to save themselves from annihilations.  The Turkish Chieftain Sharaf Bey with his huge troops surrounded to attack Bedo and his 25 Fedayis who were in Saint Partholemeos Monastery, they fought and killed them.  Then they ran after the 800 unarmed Armenian civilians and murdered and annihilated everyone of them.

  404. avatar ragnar naess // August 25, 2011 at 6:37 am // Reply

    gor
    I would like to return the question to you. What do you read? Bryce, which you mentioned, is hardly ever referred to in the historical literature, except for the fact that he worked with Arnold Toynbee in publishing the documents on the deportations and massacres in 1915-16. All documentation, handling of the material in that book is also the responsibility of Toynbee, not of Bryce. the chapter on history you mention, is that written by Bryce? Is it this one you are referring to? But if one reads the last comprehensive history of the Ottoman Empire, that of Caroline Finkel. which has received almost unanimous praise, I believe my characterization is correct, especially if you heed my qualification COMPARED TO OTHERS AT THE TIME and certainlyif one compares with the life of a reasonably well to do Norwegain or US citizen.  Jason Goodwin’s (1999)”Lords of the Horizons” I have not read for some time, but it gives about the same picture. Other general recent histories could be mentioned. But older European histories have often a general anti-turkish bias which is corrected today. This is not to deny that Armenians had problems. But we are then talking about the whole Ottoman period, arent we? Of course the end of the Armenian existence in Anatolia, the Armenian genocide, is quite something else. As I have repeated and repeated here, the Armenians have a just cause, but it is mistaken, although understandable, to see  the whole Ottoman Armenian history through the lens of the events of 1915-16 and the expusion from and fleeing of Armenians from Anatolia?   

  405. If I were alive from say, 1500 – 1860, I think I would have much preferred to live life as an Ottoman Armenian instead of as a Russian or Chinese serf, a west African (who very well might have been sold into slavery and lived in chains) or a native American.  During that period of history, probably more than 75% of the population around the world lived as true slaves.  For most of those 450 years (double the age of today’s US), there was no democracy as we know it anywhere in the world - let’s not forget, even in the US, women couldn’t vote and only white men could own land.  Despite its flaws, Armenians were living in one of the most cosmopolitan and sophisticated societies on earth, and had been thriving under the Ottoman system, which offered protection. They were also the inheritors of the previous Urartian, Arab, Greek, Persian and to a degree, Roman legacies. Armenia/Anatolia was not a backward part of the world – it was the center of it for a very long time.  Armenia was on the silk route and goods, services and people from all cultures passed thru on a daily basis. If the Ottoman empire had not gone down the costly road of multiple wars, which bled the treasury into bankruptcy and causing pain which rippled across all the provinces, I suspect Abdul Hamid’s terror and the CUP’s insanity might have not happened.  The minorities, who actually did all the real work, felt the brunt of this more than anyone, as they, as always, were expected to solve the massive financial problems created by their rulers. The rulers decided to resort to theft, pillage and expropriation, in addition to mass murder, as a solution. It was a complete and total disaster for Armenians, Greeks and others, and to a lesser extent, those who identified themselves as ‘Turks’.  Survivors lost their family names, their written language, their native dress, their religion and even their traditional forms of music – and none of that was due to anything Armenians did !  So, in reality, Armenians cannot be blamed for any of it. It was all self-created by the Ottoman state, no matter who was running the show.

  406. Returning questions is not a very polite manner, ragnar naess, but I’ll answer, nonetheless. Yes, I meant Arnold Toynbee, “A Summary of Armenian History up to and Including the Year 1915,” in Viscount Bryce, preface, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-16: Documents presented to Viscount Grey of Fallodon, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs By Viscount Bryce (New York and London: G.P.Putnam’s Sons, for His Majesty’s Stationary Office, London, 1916). Note the year of the publication: 1916.  Bryce, a prominent British academic, jurist, historian, and politician, strongly condemned the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turks in 1915. Bryce was the first to speak on that subject in the House of Lords in July 1915 (note the date), and later–with the assistance of Arnold J. Toynbee–produced a documentary record of the massacres, published by the British government in 1916 as the Blue Book, one of the most objective and internationally acclaimed secondary source on the treatment of Armenian in the Ottoman empire and on the Armenian genocide of 1915.

    You dare to compare the Blue Book with a 2005 book Osman’s Dream, History of the Ottoman Empire 1300-1923 by Turkey-based author Caroline Finkel? For the record: Caroline Finkel has not received “almost unanimous praise” for her book. The only praise she has received was the 2006 “Woman of Distinction Award” from a group called “Daughters of Atatürk”, an annual title bestowed by this Turkish group on those who have “demonstrated vision, leadership, innovation and professionalism” in “giving their talents to the international Turkish community”, read: produced a Turkic-centric account. Smells rather fishy, doesn’t it?
     
    Re: “It is mistaken to see the whole Ottoman Armenian history through the lens of the events of 1915-16.” Two blunders in one sentence. The mistreatment of Armenians and other Christian groups in the Ottoman empire was not a single event, it was a process that resulted in their near-total physical extermination by the Turks. Turkophiles often conveniently forget that before, as you say, the “events” of 1915-1916 (incorrect: genocide of Armenians lasted from 1915 up until 1923 after the last pocket of Armenians in Smyrna has been annihilated in 1922), there were several instances that preceded the genocide, namely: the Hamidian massacres of 1894-96 and massacres of Adana of 1909. These massacres unmistakably show the pattern. Armenian genocide was not a single crime taken out of the context of the life of Armenians under the Turkish yoke, it was the culmination of centuries-long mistreatment by the Turks.

    I have an advantage as compared to Turkophiles. My grandfather whose family left a village in Sasoun after the Hamidian massacres for Ardahan, then a Russian province, use to describe in length what hard, miserable, and insecure life they lived in their village fearing Muslim bands’ pogroms and thefts. No Turkophile will ever convince me in the opposite, because in addition to many scholarly accounts on the subject, I have a survivor account, recorded and documented as such.
     
    If Turkophiles prefer to “live life as an Ottoman Armenian” it’s not late, I believe. Let them go a Western Armenian village, now inhabited by Kurds and Turks, declare that they’re Armenians and see what luxury and secure life they’ll be living there even today.

  407. Karekin,   would you like to explain to the readers as to why you keep stressing the CUP regime that perpetrated the genocide of Armenians (who otherwise “lived well under Ottoman rule”), while conveniently omitting  the Hamidian massacres and distorting the historical truth with phrase such as: “Even the sultans didn’t go berserk in such a genocidal way.” Do you know anything about the Hamidian massacres in which up to 300,000 Armenians were subjected to a genocidal extermination? Then, I guess, the question is not “What happened in 1915? Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?” The question is “What happened earlier in 1894-96? Why did the Turkish Sultan Abdul Hamid II’s regime fall into genocidal insanity?”
     
    P.S.  Russian or Chinese serfs, living on their ancestral lands, were not made millets by some dominant ethnic group, were not subjected to pillages, murders, and abductions by a third ethnic/religious group, and were not in several instances methodically exterminated as a race by a third ethnic group. Huge difference in case someone doesn’t see the obvious.

    To Seervart:   Thanks for your addition. Of course, I know about the “Khanasor Expedition”.

  408. After a brief interlude, and softening of the targets, the  siren song of the alleged  golden age of Ottoman Empire returns. The allegations in this most recent post are no different than the previous ones. And said allegations were answered extensively and convincingly multiple times by multiple posters on multiple threads. One of the examples given was the intellectual and high-office achievements of Armenians in their relatively  short period  in the Russian Tsarist Empire, compared to Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
     
     
    The magnificence of  the  ancient Armenian city of Ani and the fact that it rivaled Constantinople in its day should be enough to disabuse  anyone who thinks Armenians needed Ottoman Turk overlords to achieve anything.
     
     
    Armenians did relatively well, such as it is, in the Ottoman Empire  not because of  it, but despite of it.
    We can’t rewind time, so we cannot definitively know what would have happened if Seljuk Turks had stayed in their original homeland, and Armenia and Armenians had had the luxury of uninterrupted  natural progression.
     
     
    But we can extrapolate. Turks had a run of the country without Armenians and other Christians since about 1920s.Turkey was known as the sick man of Europe for decades. Even with massive help from the wealthy West since Turkey joined NATO, it was mired in poverty and backwardness for decades.
    Even today, aside from the parts near Christian Europe, rest of it is stuck where it was decades ago. Large areas are not much better than medieval times.
     
     
    Any development and advancement that Turks naturally ascribe to themselves is thanks to their  close proximity to wealthy, advanced, benevolent Europe.
    Most of the modern industrial factories that produce industrial and consumer goods in Turkey were designed and built by Europeans, mostly Germans.
    Turks have unfettered access to the wealthy markets of Europe, and the rest of  wealthy West. Turks have unfettered access to the advanced technology of the West.
     
     
    When Armenia was part of the  Soviet Union, Armenian SSR was one of the most advanced and  prosperous of 15 republics, despite all 15 republics being treated more or less equally by the Soviet authorities. The education system was second to none.  The leaders, scientists, industrialists, artists, businessmen Armenia produced were way out of proportion to their share of the population of USSR.
     
     
    Even with the devastation of the massive earthquake with the loss of anywhere from 25,000 (official) to 50,000 (unofficial) population base, the devastating war for survival that consumed enormous human and materiel resources of the tiny republic, even with the transportation blockade, even with enormous resources being expended today to ward off invasion by Azeris, Armenia is doing remarkably well for its short 20 year life.
     
     
    Is there any doubt that if left alone, historic Armenia would not rival Europe in advancement and prosperity ?

  409. Ragnar Naess:    —-You state: “Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence if you compare with other groups.”  Please enlighten as to what “other groups” led a worse life than Armenians during the Ottoman centuries? Humiliating millet regulations were roughly identical for all religious minorities: Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, and Armenians. So, what “other groups” lived worse than Armenians?  Curiously,  K

  410. Sireli hayrenagitses Gor,now I see where you got that dzour damar of yours.I am Sassountsi as well & from both sides.Our family history is quite similar to yours.The majority of my family(both sides)were massacred & some of the remnant survivors ended up in Russian Armenia where they still live on the slopes of mount Aragats & the other survivors ended up in Syria.
    In our Shgharshig village in Armenia our family still bury their dead overlooking towards our Yergir.

  411. Look, no argument about the Hamidian massacres…my family suffered under that as well. Of course, we know what caused him to go off the cliff, and it was nationalist activity and the sense that Armenians would go the down the same road as the Greeks. Yes, it was horrible and started the exodus from the empire in a big way…people got the message…however, by 1914, all the Armenian political parties were actually working with and negotiating with the CUP, to some degree. The CUP is brought up because they were the ones who decided to rid Turkey of its Armenians…completely. Yes, Abdul Hamid murdered several hundred thousand…no small thing, but it pales in comparison to the genocide. Think of the apparatus that was needed to carry out their plan?  This wasn’t some random, spur of the moment action…it was very well thought out and planned. As sinister as Abdul Hamid was, the CUP was evil to the core. That’s why I bring it up, and…many of their accomplices were rewarded during the republican period, right up to today. It is their legacy that still haunts Turkey and Armenians, not Abdul Hamid’s.  They changed Turkey for the worst…in a very big way.  

  412. Oh Avery jan.. EXCELLENT post.. EXCELLENT.. Your question “is there any doubt that if left alone, historic Armenia would nt rival Europe in advancement and prosperity? is absolutely right on the money.. because we ALL know (including the world’s notorious denialists like Murat, Anodolu, Necati, Monastras and a like who believe in their sick heads that Turks were send to this planet from God to be Armenians’ saviours) that the answer to your question is a HUGE YES

    This is why Turkey is running like a chicken with its head cut off trying to do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING (literally) to stop any recognition, any awareness, any advancement in exposing what happened and how Turkey got to be where she is now.. When one does not feel what they have was obtained by an honest way, when one feels threatened by simple truth, one allows the world to see the insecurity and fear in them.. and that is exactly what Turks are doing and it is getting more and more obvious.. they are afraid of losing whats NOT THEIRS… who would not right???

    Avery you are absolutely right.. if the Ottomans did not commit the Genocide (and thank you Gor for pointing out the pattern started not just in 1915 but from 1894-1909 until 1923) Armenia not only would have been as great and powerful as Europe but it would have turned Turkey’s existance to almost non-existance…

    and NO Monastras Khanum, not by killing off all the Turks as you suggested in one of your posts…where you said you FEEL we would do that if we had our lands back (such a dramatization on your part.. especially on your part..)  but with our intellect, wealth, position and everything else we possessed and would have multiplied 10 times over if we were left alone…PLUS Turks back then did not even have a country but their lonely mountains..

    So I say try your hardest to change history, or make up your own history, try to smir the names of all who were brutally murdered by your ancestors by belittling and lying through your teeth.. nothing will change the fact that Turks are hiding in their dark closets away from the truth…. Turks can’t provide facts, and examples what Turkey as a whole and on individual level contributed to society back in the days and now days even if…but guess what??? there ARE PLENTY OF facts and enourmous list showing the contirbutions of ARmenians around the world …nothing will change the fact that Turks were and are still guilty of Red Genocide and White Genocide..  So stop this cry me a river BS and get with the program because to be honest with you it is getting old.. hence, why the annoyance… but never the violence.. Armenians are not violent people.. even though you denialists would like to MAKE US as such.. but guess what??? ain’t going to work..  

    Peace…

    Gayane   

  413. Murat you said:

    Murat
    August 25, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Sometimes the most obvious and simple answer is the right one.  You have heard it a million times already.

    So why are you denialists keep repeating the same thing over and over.. You have heard the truth million times over already… the obvious and simple answer is the right one indeed… The Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians is the right answer…recognition, and repayment is another of them right answers..very simple.. 

      It is too bad that my ancestors are not here to speak for themselves…but i know they won’t rest and they will hunt those who belittle their existance and their death forever… and I for one will never stop speaking on behalf of them.. so keep on fighting the battle you will never win Murat and the rest of you denialists…  

  414. Karekin- Gor is not saying 1915 was less important than 1894-1896 or 1909.. He was pointing out that ALL massacres NEED TO BE MENTIONED to show progression, a pattern of these horrible Turkish tribes.. it was not JUST 1915…evil was their middle name no matter how small or big their job was.. period…

  415. Sassoun.. such a powerful word.. You sure can feel the strength and patriotism pouring out of it.. word.. it project mightiness, Godly…and that is how our warriors were… mernem yes irants janin….

  416. Then I believe things must be called by their correct names. The 1915 genocide of Armenians was not a sole episode in the ghastly history of Western Armenians, nor was the CUP regime the only Turkish regime that fell into genocidal insanity. A pattern of deliberate physical extermination of Armenians must be always made crystal clear, just as the ICTJ resolution did. One who sees the pattern and who’s aware of the insecure and miserable lives of most of the Ottoman Armenians (especially in rural areas) must think twice before making irresponsible statements, such as: “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule” or “Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence.”

  417. I sometimes feel that you are about to touch what the real problem was but you carry on talking  Hamidiye, CUP etc. The nationalism age started in the 17. century and gradualy engulfed the entire region. Turks never thought that we couldn’t think about this what a lovely idea. They fought every inches in the vast areas they lost. Armenians was no different. But they didn’t realize that they have a special position. They shared the same homeland. Obviously, Whoever run the management, whoever numerous and stronger kicked the other one out. If the same argument is still valid today, the same arguments will be repeated again and again

     

  418. Don’t dance around the issue writing in riddles so you can weasel out of it later. It’s B&W. Do you affirm or do you retract – with apology  - your post below:

    {Guest – Monastras 
    2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
    (posted @Hurriyet)

    Yes or No ?
     
     

  419. Monastras….you made no sense whats so ever.. please try to put your thoughts in a more coeherent manner so we know what you are talking about, what you are referring to.. ect.. throwing words just to throw words is not beneficial….. 

    in any case: this sentence written by you says:  “Obviously, Whoever run the management, whoever numerous and stronger kicked the other one out”….. you know that by this sentence ALONE you just admitted that your barbaric ancestors committed the Genocide toward the less numerous, less stronger in arms, and less powerful to manage the empire …..Greeks Assyrians and especially Armenians…thank you…

    But the truth of the matter is and a VERY VERY VERY  embarassing for you and all your denialists population is that your ancestors were cowards and low lives to murder almost an entire population by stripped them of everything before they did it….. they did not fight like real men.. they were chicken s*(*%(*$#(*$(#* for doing what they did…. having weakened the ARmenians to the extent where no men were kept alive, every weapon confiscated and women, children and elderly driven to the dessert with only their clothes on their back.. such cowardace act on your ancestors part….they knew very well that Armenians would have fought until the end…but they did not want to face them like real men against men…which is why they organized such a large compaigne to break down the Armenians before murdering, raping, mutilating, and burning them….. your coward ancestors did everything to disarm and disperse the ARmenian communities because that way it was easier to control and kill… if I was a Turk i would be embarassed… i would bury my face in shame knowing my blood line is attached to not only barbarians but coward barbarians…sad..  

    Gayane

  420. Avery jan- have you noticed that when you put their own words right back in their mouth and in front of their face, they come back with nothing… no reaction … it is like what we presented is not their own words… typical of them… not surprised…

    Monastras will continue to ignore the question because just like her own govt who for years continued to ignore the BIG FAT ELEPHANT in the room, the acknolwedgement of the Genocide, she would do the same.. not to fess up and stand behind her words..  

  421. Dear Gor, I am not surprised that you know about Khanasor Expedition as Armenians from our Motherland are usually very well read indeed and you certainly are a very good specimen of the intelligent and the well read individuals.  Of course several others in here as well make me much proud to be Armenian; bunch of well read and superbly intelligent people you are.  I am sorry for your family and VTiger’s family.  What Armenian doesn’t have similar heartbreaking stories after the Armenian Genocide?  We all do unfortunately.  Indeed before the Armenian Genocide my father told me that in Palu where he was brought up, they used to call “Meds Charte” for the Hamidian Massacres when the Red Sultan Abdul Hamid annihilated 300,000 Armenian civilians from 1894-1896.  As you and I know my dear that even much before 1894 the annihilations, the pillaging and the persecutions were constant and ongoing; that’s why our great writers and poets used to cry in their literature and wish to see the freedom of Armenia so that the people would start breathing air and not death nor live in sheer fright of dying every day of their lives.  Writers such as Raffi (Hagop Melik Hagopian) and Khatchadour Abovian in his “Verk Hayasdani”.   I would also like to remind or tell Karekin, that ever since the Seljuk Mongolian tribes came from the Mongolian steppes of the Altai mountains to our Westermn Armenian Highlands since the 1050′s, the pillaging, the murdering, the persecutions and the annihilations never stopped.  They were constant and ongoing against all the Armenian people in Western Armenia.

  422. That’s right Gayane.  Ms Monastas pretends that whatever I posted is not there.
    It’s OK. I don’t mind. I have infinite patience. A couple of other Denialists tried that to on me: didn’t work. (No  need to mention  any names, but you know who they are.)
     
    As long as my fingers can press a key on my keyboard, I’ll keep reminding
    Ms. Monastras. If I am away,  you will remind her, or one of  our other compatriots will.
     
    Best thing for her to do is make a stand right here @AW: either post “Yes, I wrote it and have no regrets”, or “Yes, I wrote it, but I regret it, I apologize”.
     

    We can then have a Reset: she can thereafter debate to her heart’s content with other Armenian or guest posters. She has stated she loves AW, so it should be an easy choice for her. (I am guessing she appreciates the excellent commenting platform AW provides, and not necessarily Armenian-centric articles).
     
    Otherwise – no deal: I’ll keep re-posting her @Hurriyet comment for all to see.

  423. Monastras, I have to admit that I have some trouble with your English above.  I think you are trying to say that Turks were also feeling the pangs of nationalism just as others of the time, and unfortunately for Armenians they wanted the same land that Armenians wanted; and since they were in charge, more numerous and had a stronger militia, the Turks won the battle for the land.  Is that what you meant?
     
    Perhaps, you and many Turks tell yourselves this as a way of suggesting that Armenians and Turks were mere combatants on opposite sides of a war.  Maybe it makes it easier to think that we were just having a  fair and square fight and the Armenians lost.   Maybe it makes it seem less awful than to acknowledge that the CUP/Turks systematically disarmed the Armenian men, separated them from the their families, forced them into work battalions (or worse) where most died, then ordered all the women, children and elderly to abandon their homes and to go on foot marches to the Syrian desert where they also perished.  Maybe you overlook the fact that innocent women and children, who were no threat to the Turks, (especially those from villages nowhere near the battlefronts), were cruelly starved, raped and murdered.  Maybe you look at these facts and feel proud of the shrewdness of those who won Anatolia for the Turks.  Maybe you concede that it is sad that the Armenians lost, but tell yourself that all is fair in war.  And besides, the Armenians gave the Turks no choice since some Armenians near the borders were siding with the enemy.  Armenians should just accept their defeat and move on.  Is this what you think?
     
    Well, if you do, you have much in common with genocide deniers who justify the inhuman acts organized and carried out by the CUP against the Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire.  But these were not acts of war.  They were acts carried out under the cover of war.  They were an extension of a long standing policy of suppression and aggression against Armenians who had begun to assert their right to self-determination and express demands to be treated equally under the law as the CUP had promised.  They were  acts of pan-turkic fanaticism.  And they were ultimately acts that would later be named ‘genocide’ by Raphael Lemkin and condemned by the nations of the world.
     
     
     

  424. avatar ragnar naess // August 26, 2011 at 3:05 am // Reply

    gor
    No, the praise on the backside of Finkels book is much broader than a praise of turkophiles. And you go on talking about the situation of Armenians after the brakedown of the Kurdish amira system, which of course created problems in the traditional armenian lands and all over the area covered by the Kurds, whereas the theme was Armenian life in the Ottoman Empire more general. The brakedown of the Kurdisk system, due to centralization efforts on the part of the Ottoman government, created by the way problems for everybody except the powerful, rule of law diminished and the road was opened to the predators. But will you not say anything about the time before 1850 and about the situation of Armenians in cities before 1895? 

  425. Earlier by Gor
     Are you ready, Anadolu? Here I come. 

    “Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier
    some “Before Turks arrived, there was war as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian
    wars over Anatolia.”  — Those wars didn’t bring destruction at a scale remotely reminiscent to what nomadic Turks brought to the region. Also, at those times there was no such a
    toponym as Anatolia. This is a Turkish creation to indicate a part of Asia Minor and, especially, replace the Armenian Highland (or Plateau) where Armenians have lived for millennia with this cooked-up term.
    Gor
    What a nonsense, war’s bring always destruction. Radical anti Turks claim that nomadic Turks brought devastation. First of all the Seljuk’s were not nomadic, but a highly civilized and through Arabian and Persian culture mixed vast empire. After the Seljuk’s won the battle against the Byzantines in Manazkirt 1071. This defeat was not a military disaster for Byzantine but a political disaster with the capture of the emperor, his testimony by Doukas and civil war that follows. It is this civil war that squandered the financial and military resources of the empire, leaving Asia
    Minor defenseless against continual incursions of Turks. Here also a short story to the captured Greek emperor. When he was brought to Alparslan, he was asked what his fate would be and the Greek emperor replied as it’s custom, I might get killed or be imprisoned. But for his surprise he was set free and to be returned to Istanbul (Constantinople), after arriving in Costantinople the Greek emperor was at once killed. (either through a mob or through his political rivals). So please see some different history about the Turks, though its not pleasant for Turk haters. And further to your claim of Turkish devastation see also following historical facts.

    1022 : Basileios II annexed Armenian
    territories in the Byzantine Empire and 40.000 Armenians were deported to
    Anatolia. (Armenians being deported by Byzantines, I ask myself why?)

    1046: The Armenian sovereigns were killed by Byzantine
    Emperor Constantine IX. ( I guess it was because of the so called alien barbaric turks )

    1054: Seljukian Sultan Tugrul Bey gave the Armenians autonomy. (no can’t be
    true, it’s to barbaric)

    1098: The Armenians collaborated with the Crusaders (ok, never mind that’s
    normal due to same religion)

    1461: Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror invited Armenian Bishop Hovakim to
    Istanbul and he was honoured by the title of “Patriarch”. Later some privileges
    were given to the Armenians.(no, no please that’s just to barbaric )

    Stop you hatred against Turks.

  426. oh boy, oh boy: can’t wait for the broadside from Gor.

  427. Anadolu, you have made some interesting points, but your final comment reveals a problem. 
    You are confusing anger and frustration with hatred.  I do not hate Turks and I teach my children not to hate Turks.  I know few Armenians who claim to hate Turks.  In my circle, most Armenians easily express the understanding that modern day Turks know only bits and pieces of the truth, some tainted by government propaganda.  We do not blame everyday Turks for the actions that eliminated the Armenians from over 80% of their homeland. 
     
    But ask us how it feels to know that our ancestors who once flourished in the Armenian Highlands were systematically and forceably deported, massacred and left to die in a desert or be scattered all around the world.  Ask us how it feels to know your ancestors were forced to abandon their homes, lands, crops, livestock, businesses, school and churches to Turkish and Kurdish looters and squatters.  And not just from a village or two, or even ten, but an entire homeland… Ask us how it feels that a population of over 3 million Armenians in 1914 now number only a fraction of that when natural growth patterns of the last century would have predicted multiple doublings by now.   Ask how it feels to have architectural marvels built by your ancestors, which are admired round the world, denied their proper names and designated as Turkish wonders for tourists to enjoy.   Your history is denied, your culture usurped, your identity trampled.
     
    Then ask yourself how it must feel to know all of this and then hear the government of Turkey deny it and to imprison, fine and even kill those who speak the truth.   How would you feel?
     

  428. “No, the praise on the backside of Finkel’s book is much broader than a praise of turkophiles.” Please support your argument, ragnar naess.  The only praise for Osman’s Dream, History of the Ottoman Empire 1300-1923 (whose author, Caroline Finkel, is actually based in Turkey) I was able to find was the 2006 “Woman of Distinction Award” from a group called “Daughters of Atatürk.” It’s a Turkish group not a group of Turkophiles. Turkish to the bones. I don’t know, for a common observer this fact alone would speak volumes as to why a Turkish group would praise a non-Turkish author.
     
    I said no word in any of my comments above about the situation of Armenians after the breakdown of the Kurdish amira system. Please refrain from ascribing something that was never said by an author.

    “But will you not say anything about the time before 1850 and about the situation of Armenians in cities before 1895?”   What exactly would you like me to say? Be precise, please. I guess you want me to say that if Armenians were not exterminated en masse before 1894 it means they might have “led a fairly good life”? Is this the amplitude that your intellectual abilities fit into? If Armenians were not exterminated en masse then they might have lived fairly well? Is this it? Shall I remind here about the humiliating rayah and millet serfdoms under which Christians and Jews lived after their colonization by Turks beginning the 15th century onwards?

  429. I admit that my comment seemed a little bit incoherent but I guess It has been understood by most people. Remember, we aren’t equal here.There are restrictions for us.So I am planning to code my posts in the future for this reason, however, I managed to express my opinion comprehensively in the past. over all, It is a good site to exchange various opinions.
    I am tempted to release all my poison about the ancient civilizations in the ME but It will attract   hundreds of more comments So I will refrain from doing it.

    Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. 

  430. I’ll start from the end, Anadolu, from your false accusation that I’m filled with hatred against Turks.  I don’t hate Turks. I believe my mental abilities allow me to differentiate between modern-day Turks and their Ottoman/CUP predecessors. You’re confusing righteous indignation for the genocide against a whole nation with hatred. Or you’re accusing Armenians of hatred deliberately in an attempt to open Armenians up to condemnation. Whatever your motives are, remember this once and for all: we don’t hate modern-day Turks. We may despise your denialist state and your distortionist governments, but not ordinary Turkish citizens. By the way, stating historical facts and calling things by their names, for instance, that Seljuks were originally nomadic tribes or that Ottoman Turks brought destruction to the vast geographic area up to the gates of Vienna, must not be taken as an expression of hate. In order to justify savage annihilation of unarmed men, women, children, and elders, modern Turkish government and scholars accuse all Armenians—defenseless, rural, unorganized, and even the unborn whom Turks ripped off the wombs of their mothers–with collaborating with the Russians, but we don’t take this as a demonstration of hatred. We take it as a result of methodical brainwashing so successfully achieved by your government propaganda and school textbooks.
     
    Let me now move on to your historical “facts”.
     
    First of all, re: “Seljuk’s were not nomadic, but a highly civilized and through Arabian and Persian culture mixed vast empire.” I don’t know what they teach you at schools, but in this age of the Internet and sophisticated communications technology it shouldn’t be so hard to conduct an independent research to know that the origins of the Seljuks were, in fact, nomadic. They roamed as nomads over a vast region, which today lies in the Altay mountains and Mongolian steppes. Prior to the 9th century AD, hordes of Turks had crossed the Volga River into the Black Sea steppes. Then, in the 9th century, they lived north of the Caspian and Aral seas, in the Kazakh steppe of Central Asia. In the 10th century, the Seljuks migrated from their ancestral homeland into mainland Persia, in the province of Khurasan, where they mixed with the local population and adopted the Persian culture and language in the following decades, since, as tent-living nomads, they had no culture of their own. It is an offense to the mainstream historiography to claim that Seljuks were “highly civilized” people. For your knowledge, “highly civilized” people leave traces in history, such as structures, writings, laws, artifacts, etc., as did the Sumerians, Egyptians, Indians, the Chinese, etc. What did the Seljuks leave behind them? Nothing. Only blood and destruction brought upon sedentary peoples. Seljuks started gaining remotely civilized traits only after intermingling with the Persians and Arabs and after stealing cultural achievements of these peoples, mostly in language, architecture, cuisine, social customs, etc.
     
    Wars always bring devastation, but for the civilized Western world the 1071 Battle of Manzikert, waged between the Byzantine Empire and Seljuk Turks led by Alp Arslan, was not just another war. It was a defense attempt against Seljuk intruders, whose homeland was nowhere near Asia Minor. The defeat of the Byzantine army and the capture of the Emperor Romanos IV Diogenes played a tragic role in undermining Byzantine authority in Asia Minor and Armenia that allowed alien Turks to gradually populate the region bringing destruction, population changes, religious conversions, and cultural thefts to the native peoples and, later on, paved the way for the emergence of Ottoman Turks that led to the  fall of the Christian capital of the world, Constantinople, and colonization of the indigenous peoples into millets. Therefore, you’re wrong in that the Battle of Manzikert “was not a military disaster for Byzantine.” Not only was it a military disaster, but it soon proved to be a grand disaster for the whole Western world. Thank you, at least, for admitting that there actually were “continual incursions of Turks.” I hope you’ll understand the major point of concern of indigenous peoples of Asia Minor: Turks never belonged in the region.
     
    Some of the historical facts that you brought are known, others are just rubbish. But all of them don’t essentially disprove that it were Seljuk and Ottoman Turks who, in fact, brought major grief and devastation to the natives of Asia Minor.
     
    That there occasionally were tensions between the Byzantines and Armenians (mostly around a religious interpretation issue) leading to plots, riots, and assassinations on both sides, we know. But we also know that several of the Byzantine Emperors were genuine ethnic Armenians; that the armies of the two states often cooperated in fending off invaders; and that the two ancient nations abundantly enriched each other’s culture.
     
    That the period of Seljuk invasions of Armenia was one of chaos, accompanied by widespread destruction of human life and property, we know. What we don’t seem to know is that a Seljuk invader Tughril Bey gave the Armenians autonomy(?!). In 1040 two Seljuk Oghuz brothers, Tughril Bey and Chagri Bey, conquered the Ghaznavid kingdom of Iran and established the Seljuk empire. In 1047, Tughril formed an army of 100,000 Turkmens from Persian Khurasan to invade Armenia. Thus from the mid-1040s to about 1063, detachments of Turks, controlled by Seljuk sultans, penetrated deeper into Armenia, destroying numerous cities and devastating entire districts. What we didn’t know is that, based on Turkish mentality, an army was formed by Tughril Bey not to invade Armenia, but to generously bring Armenians an autonomy. If Armenians were given autonomy by the Seljuk Turks in 1054, as you claim, why then ungrateful Armenians organized resistance to Seljuk invasions in Baiburt in 1054, Malatia and Colonea in 1057, and in Sebastia (Sivas) in 1059 before Tughril was succeeded by his nephew Alp Arslan who would then capture ancient Armenian city of Ani in 1064?

    That Alp Arslan set the Byzantine Emperor Romanos IV Diogenes free, we know. But we also know the motives for such an unusual Turkish “mercy.” After the Battle of Manzikert,  Arslan at first had difficulty believing the dusty and tattered warrior broughtbefore him was Emperor. He then stepped down from his seat and placed his foot on Romanos’ neck. After this sign of ritual Turkish humiliation, Arslan released him in exchange for a peace treaty and the promise of a hefty ransom of 10,000,000 nomismata.
     
    That Sultan Mehmed II brought Hovagim I from Bursa to Constantinople in 1461, we know. But in addition to this seemingly “generous” Turkish act we also know that after Constantinople fell to Ottoman Turks in 1453, the Armenian Patriarchate came to care more directly for all Orthodox Christians living in the Ottoman empire. Hovagim I was brought to Constantinople solely with a political purpose: Mehmed II wanted Armenian-Greek separation as Constantinople had become the center of their ecclesiastical and national life. As part of Mehmed’s ploy, he wanted the Armenian patriarch of Constantinople, and not the Catholicos of Mother Church Etchmiadzin, to be the Armenians’ most important national dignitary. Because the largest Armenian community in the world lived in Constantinople at the time, the civil-ecclesiastical authority of the Armenian patriarch would have made the Sultan practically the most powerful official among the Armenians at large.
     
    You know why you have such a linear viewpoint about Seljuk destruction and Ottoman colonization of native peoples of Asia Minor? Because you simply copy and paste distortions from Turkish Internet sites. No effort is made at doing your own research.
     
    Lastly, you seem to be offended by the word “barbarian” that some Armenians use when describing Turkish behavior. It is not directed at modern-day Turks. But the ghastly behavior of your Ottoman and Ittihadist predecessors towards non-Turk human beings is, without doubt, nothing less than barbarism. Visit the websites depicting the horrors of Turkish mass murders and humiliations of Greeks, Assyrians, and especially Armenians, and I hope you’ll understand what I mean.

  431. ragnar naess,   normally, we find praises on the backside of virtually any book, not just Frinkel’s. Their main goal being to make a profitable sale. However, praises on the backside of any book do not necessarily imply that the book has actually “received almost unanimous (emphasis mine) praise,” as you claim.

  432. For Gor and Ragnar, here are a couple of reviews of Finkel’s book, Osman’s Dream, which are easily obtained from the Amazon website and may be of interest to potential Armenian readers:
     
    “…While this book provides a rather quick paced narrative for a large span of history, its divergence from established historical fact regarding the Armenian Genocide is so blatant as to border on propaganda. While the author spends a short amount of time on the issue, admitting that “some” atrocity took place, her views completely run counter to a vast amount if well established research. Given the significance of mass murder and her attempts to belittle the issue, I cannot in good conscience recommend this book.”
     
    and this one:
     
    “…Eyebrows may be raised by her treatment of the Armenian genocide. She seems to say there may have been some atrocities but maybe not as extensive as alleged. But her explanation of what happened to the victims is very brief. Sure she covers over 500 years of history in 550 pages. But if she is going to write something long, she ought to go even longer, as the topic of a genocide is one that demands more explanation. “
     
    The book has received mixed reviews.  I plan to read Finkel’s book despite the mixed reviews.  I am sure I will learn something about the Ottoman period and perhaps I will also learn something more about the current blend of pseudo-objective Turkish Ottoman scholarship.   As an Armenian, I am aware of the need to be careful not to read books about the Ottoman period with too parochial an eye, but given Finkel’s close ties with Turkey I will also have my propaganda radar turned on. 

  433. Unfortunately, this discourse has become one of extremes with extremes. There’s no need for this. We are, like it or not, all Anatolians.  Armenians have lived under many political systems and configurations since time immemorial, but as an indigenous people with thousands of years of settle history in one place, they developed a multitude of skill sets that were used and appreciated by their conquerors. Let’s not forget – Armenian stonemasons designed and built every single Seljuk masterpiece known in Anatolia – most of which are magnificent. Armenians also gave the Ottoman Empire geniuses like Sinan, whose work is among the most beautiful in the world and the Balyans, who built palaces and mosques for the sultans.

    Armenians did this work because they had the depth of knowledge and the skill that comes from many centuries of experience, from well before the Urartian period right until the late 19th C. (As a comparison, think of the US….it would be like having a native American design and build the capitol building in Washington, DC. But, we know that could have never happened.)  In between, they built cities like Ani, which was on the silk road, and Dikranagert (Diyarbekir) and they prospered as a result.  Yes, they lived under a system that would not seem fair, moral or righteous today, but we must and should compare apples with apples, not with bananas. For most of history, Armenians were not a minority at all in Turkey, in fact, they outnumbered Turks. They did well because it was, in fact, their country…they were not living in a foreign land. They may not have been running the state or the army, but they were living on their own soil, and provided the practical intelligence that allowed society to function. All their rulers knew this and took advantage of it. 

    But, that’s all part of history.  Above all, if todays Turks want Armenians to respect them, they must also give respect to those who gave their lives to build their empire over many centuries. This is what’s missing.  They must acknowledge Armenian contributions, not hide them.  Whatever they have today is directly connected – not just to the theft and genocide that took place in 1915, but to what happened in 915, 615 and well before. Just a little bit of gratitude, and yes, an apology, for what was appropriated just 95 years ago, would go a very long way and would open the door to a more civilized discussion.  I believe that it is possible, but can only happen if people can pull back from their extreme positions and thus allow other avenues of thought to develop.

      

  434. Hi Karekin, I’ve found myself agreeing with a lot more of your comments recently, but I would like to ask you to be more specific regarding the ‘extremes’ you feel people are falling into.

  435. Anatolian?  Not if that means second class millet Turkt.  Yes, if that means indigenous inhabitant of Asia Minor and Armenian Plateau.

  436. Nope, we are not Anatolians. We are Armenian Highlanders- Armenians who have existed on Armenian Highlands for about 5,000 years. Seljuk Turks invaded from Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains regions about 1,000 years ago.

    We are Armenian Highlanders. We are not Anatolians.

    Seljuk Turks are and their progeny are nothing like us. 

  437. 30-gun broadside signed, sealed, and delivered.

  438. Monastras, who are you kidding?  A little bit incoherent? 
    It looks like the work of two completely different Monastras.

  439. Monastras, I missed this earlier:
     
    “Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. “
     
    Again a bit hard to understand.  Are you asking why the German general public escapes being called uncivilized barbarians, but Turkish general public does not?
    First, no one thinks that the general Turkish public is barbarian.  There is no hatred toward an everyday Mehmet.  There is anger at the general Turkish ignorance and the government’s deliberate distortion and denial of the truth.  Germans admitted their guilt and paid reparation and regained there status among nations.  That is the simple difference.  Turks should stop feeling so insulted by the truth and take an honest look at history and the crime their nation has yet to come to terms with.  It really is that simple.  
    Thanks for the chance to say this again.  I am happy to repeat it every time a Turk suggests Armenians are “haters.”   How much more hateful is it to deport, massacre and murder innocent people just because they happen to share a certain nationality with some freedom fighters who are giving the government trouble?  The vast majority of Armenians were loyal Ottomans.  They had to be or risk their families safety.

  440. Avery jan you are hillarious.. I LOVED YOUR PAST COMMENT because I agree 100%..:)  Oh by the way Avery jan.. you bet your brillant self, I will remind Monastras.. Her brilliant blunder will never be forgotten and will always be reminded…

    Gor jan..JAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN….- xosq chunem… yes apshats em miaym… thank you…

    no denialist on these pages nor around the world can stand against your intellect and knowledge…. if  I was one of them denialists, i would feel sooooooooooo dumb and embarassed right now that i would not dare to open my stupid mouth again..lol. truly an excellent post… apres.. du im herosnes…  

    Boyajian jan- as always you are definintely a great writer… love your style..:)

    Anadolu Pasha- so how does it feel to know that what you try to throw up on these pages will NEVER be allowed… lies and distortion on our pages WILL NEVER be allowed…  

    Ragnar- give it up my man.. please do find yourself another hobby because obviously Armenian history is not working for ya… thank you.. have a great life…

    Monastras- i would suggest you talk with Robert (he is a Turk as well) who was as notoriously deniar as yoursel but recently relized (and I am very happy for him..truly appreciate it) that living in a lie and being cruel and continue denial is not a way to treat Armenians…. it is better to admit and move on.. Khanum jan….      

  441. ‘…Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. ‘

    WHAT ? Germans ? Turks ?  

  442. lol.. Avery .. i can’t stop laughing …that is what I felt when I read Monastras comment about Germans… Turks.. barbarians.. ect.. totally confused..lool

  443. How/why would Seljuk Turks, the newest arrivals be Anatolians?  We all know they originated elsewhere. The Armenian highlands are part of Anatolia/Asia Minor…..yes…but, I disagree wholeheartedly that the Seljuks had anything to do w/ Anatolia, except to conquer it and the people who were there originally.  If anything WE are the original Anatolians!

  444. Karekin, As Boyajian, I also agree with her that lately I am in agreement in most of your posts, excepting the one that you said that we were better off than most during 1500-1600′s in the Ottoman regime.  I directed my conversation to Gor but I also mentioned that we were in constant attacks by the Seljuk Ottoman Turks in the region.  Other than that I am in agreement with your past several posts.

    Gor, You certainly did your research about how and when both the Seljuk Turks and the Ottoman Turks stepped into our homeland.  Good for you Gor jan.

  445. My Ladies— i have to say I am a bit surprised about Karekin because I have gotten to know him on these pages for a while now… He sure is one of them people who you can’t figure out… because he is or should I say WAS(but could not hiding) more favorable toward Turks than his own then he would switch Amos (his style).. his preaching was always directed to us and his comments and yes many of them were absolutely harsh toward Armenians… we hardly ever heard him preach, accuse, and descipline Turks but he had plenty to say to us… so i would be cautious about him and would not get too comfortable with his comments because he can drop a bomb anytime… it has happened before..

    But that aside…I have to say.. i am happy to see Karekin is actually changing tides and sharing thoughts, and feelings that an Armenian who lost his or her family during Genocide would truly share, and expresses a bit of annoyance with the denialists… lets just see how long this will last.. i have faith in him….

    Sincerely,

    Gayane

  446. avatar ragnar naess // August 27, 2011 at 3:30 am // Reply

    gor

    I agree that my words of “almost unanimous praise” was mistaken. On the back page of the paperback we find “The New York Sun”, Jason Goodwin in the “Literary Review” (UK) and Orhan Pamuk. on the first page (“Praise for Osman’s Dream”) we find praise from “Booklist – Starred review”, “Library journal”, “Kirkus Reviews”, Publisher’s weekly and “the Scotsman, William Dalrymple”. I find it particularly interesting that Pamuk and Dalrymple, that both have raised the issue of the Armenian genocide (even if they do not necessarily use the word), are among those who praise the book. The Armenian genocide is mention in the pages 533-536. The Amazon comments you have mentioned, Boyajian, are made by people whom we do not know the credentials of. That many will disagree with her treatment of the deportaitions and massacres of the  Armenians, particularly Armenians, is not surprising. But our theme was the general appraisal of the book. Apart from that out theme was THE SITUATION OF ARMENIANS ALSO AT EARLIER DATES THAN THE TIME OF CATASTROPHY. Honestly, gor, I feel that you have a strange reluctance to go into the earlier situation of Armenians compared with other at the time. So you must excuse me for still experiencing you as seeing the situation of Armenians too much through the lense of the Armenian Genocide  

  447. The word Anatolia is of Greek origin variously defined as “dawn” or “the start of day.”  In other words, the east. 

  448. “The Amazon comments you have mentioned, Boyajian, are made by people whom we do not know the credentials of.”

    Ragnar, credentials! Really? This site is full of ‘uncredentialed’ comments; just ordinary peoples’ opinions which generate much worthy discussion. We are fortunate to have such a diverse mix here. The comments from Amazon were just ‘opinions’ and I posted them here because I thought (as I wrote) that they would be of interest to Armenian readers. Loosen up a bit.

  449. Well, let’s get history straight….by the 15 – 1600′s, the Seljuks were gone as a ruling force and had been displaced by the Ottomans. The few Seljuks who had arrived most likely blended in (via marriage) with the native Armenians. This started the DNA mixing we know of today and explains why there are very few ‘pure’ Turks in Turkey. We should also remember that there is a huge gap between those known as ‘white’/European Turks and ‘black’/Anatolian Turks. The racism shown towards Armenians comes largely from the white Turk community, which was mostly imported from the Balkans and have no historical connection to Asia Minor. These people were all converts from the last 400 years, and most took refuge in Turkey only after WWI. Their sense of superiority overrides everything else and they have little respect for those who preceded them. This is a bit odd, considering that they are living in homes built by the original natives, but this divide is real and goes a long way in explaining the underlying roots of Turkish racism in the Turkish military and among the political elites.  

  450. I object to the use of Anatolian in reference to Western Armenians, because Turks and their Denialist cadres have been using the term ‘Anatolian’ to deliberately co-mingle the original inhabitants of Western Armenia and Eastern Byzantium with the progeny of Seljuk Turk invaders. Its purpose is to obfuscate their origins over time and convince the world they have been there all along: original, native inhabitants of the lands, and not invaders who stole those lands form the true original, native, sedentary, peaceful inhabitants and builders of those lands – after exterminating them en masse.
     
    I am aware of  the historic Greek origins of the word ‘Anatolia’. However, it has acquired a sinister tone and purpose in modern use.
     
    I will continue using ‘Armenian Highlands’, ‘Armenian Plateau’, ‘Eastern Byzantium’, ‘Greek Byzantium’, ‘Asia Minor’ – to keep to reminding Turks and their Denialist cadres of who was there first and who invaded and exterminated the original inhabitants.  And I will continue objecting to the term ‘Anatolian’  when referring to Armenians.
     
    The Denialist posting under the name ‘Anadolu’ should disabuse anyone of what the term implies in current usage for Turks.
     
    We are not Anatolians: we are Armenian Highlanders – Armenians from the Armenian Highlands, the Armenian Plateau.
    We are not Anatolians.

  451. Point taken, Avery. 

  452. Ragnar, the comment by Orhan Pamuk on the back of Finkel’s book is one short sentence:
     
    “Caroline Finkel effortlessly conveys the high drama of Ottoman history.”
     
    Nice words of praise, but I can’t help wondering what else this man of letters might have said that did not make the back of the book.

  453. Well, we can agree to disagree, but…true Turks have no real claim or right to anything Anatolian, including the moniker, except, as I said, by conquest. Even by applying the Greek term for a piece of geography is very revealing.  There are plenty of honestly Turkish parts of the world on the other side of the Caspian, but Anatolia, the Armenian plateau or Asia Minor are not part of that grouping. Denialists might want to use the term, but by what right?  It doesn’t belong to them anymore than Ararat does. 

  454. ragnar naess,   I think to diminish the importance of Arnold Toynbee and Viscount Bryce’s Blue Book, an internationally acclaimed account on the treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman empire until and in the year 1915, published in 1916, i.e. when the genocide was still ongoing (a secondary source that’s often is considered primary given the year of publication) with an 2005 account of a Turkey-stationed author Finkel who was presented with an award by ‘Daughters of Atatürk’ is, to me, an affront to the mainstream historiography.

    karekin,   parts of the area at all times in ancient history until the invasion of Seljuks and colonization by Ottoman Turks was known as Asia Minor, Eastern Byzantium, Eastern Asia Minor, Armenian Highlands, Armenian Plateau. ‘Anatolia’ is a deliberately cooked-up toponym in an attempt to erase these ancient names of the area where the Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, and Armenians lived. It is unacceptable to say that Armenians are ‘Anatolians’. We have lived in the area for so long that historically the plateau was named after us: the Armenian Plateau. Avery is absolutely right: we are Armenian Highlanders.

    P.S. VTiger, I’m glad to have a descendent of a Sasountsi on these pages. The spirit of Sassoun/Moush Armenians is known to be unbreakable.

  455. Gor…yes, to us the eastern end of Anatolia is, in fact, the Armenian plateau, but let me ask….when is the last time you looked at a map?  I’ve not seen ‘Armenian plateau’ on any map of recent vintage. Moreover, since the term came from the ancient Greeks – easily thousands of years before the Turks arrived…and includes everything east of Istanbul, what is your beef? If anyone should be upset that they appropriated the term, it should be the Greeks, not us, not you.

  456. avatar ragnar naess // August 28, 2011 at 2:31 am // Reply

    gor

    I am not diminishing the value of the “Blue Book”, on the contrary I have used some 50 hours reading it in detail and making notes quite recently. The 150+ letters and notes, mainly provided by bystanders, are obviously a very important material of documentation. As ICTJ says the most reasonable conclusion is that there were perpetrators around who targeted and killed Armenians “as such”. But the introduction and the history of Armenians appended is something else. To my mind these texts are much more marked by the propaganda purposes of  the British government. They amount to a demonization of Turks and the Ottoman Empire. Further, the texts have very little relevance for solution of the question of the role of the central CUP cadres. Some of those who testify have opinions on this, but needless to say the value of the documents, as Ara Sarafian says, lies in the eyewitness testimonies. But the reading of what went on is terrible and points to the responsibility of the government at the time.

  457. avatar ragnar naess // August 28, 2011 at 2:35 am // Reply

    Gayane

    thank you for your remark that is it easy to go along with what Turkish spokesmen say when one sits at their table and drink their wine. I was recently in Istanbul and Ankara and spoke with Turkish historians, NGOs and officials, and I thought about your remark several times. The flesh is weak as I believe is said in the Bible, so thank you 

  458. ragnar naess,   devaluation of the Blue Book is the sense I got from this passage of yours: “Bryce is hardly ever referred to in the historical literature, except for the fact that he worked with Arnold Toynbee in publishing the documents on the deportations and massacres in 1915-16. But if one reads the last comprehensive history of the Ottoman empire, that of Caroline Finkel, which has received almost unanimous praise, I believe my characterization [‘Armenians led a fairly good life during the Ottoman centuries’] is correct, especially if you heed my qualification compared to others at the time[…].”
     
    Now you’re saying that the “150+ letters and notes, mainly provided by bystanders, are obviously a very important material of documentation” in the Blue Book and that you “used some 50 hours reading it in detail and making notes quite recently.”  You are certainly inconsistent. If the account is “hardly ever referred to in the historical literature”, then why you now think it is “obviously a very important material of documentation”? If you think Finkel’s account has received “almost unanimous praise”, why have you “used some 50 hours reading [the Blue Book] in detail and making notes quite recently”?
     
    Also, the Blue Book does not refer solely to the deportations and massacres of Armenians in 1915-16; it deals in great length with the history of Armenians and their treatment in the Ottoman centuries. To your mind, the texts are marked by the propaganda purposes of the British government. To our mind, the texts are marked by an honest attempt to depict the treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman empire. The undeniable historical fact that Armenians, as well as other Christians and Jews, were treated by the Turks as rayah and second-class millets, is not “a demonization of Turks and the Ottoman empire.” It is a reiteration of the sad actuality that existed throughout those centuries when non-Turks and non-Muslims were generally treated inadequately as compared to the dominant group: voiceless, un- or underrepresented, lacking basic civil rights, physically unsecured, legally unprotected, and oppressed.
     
    karekin,    I can speak for Armenians, not Greeks. The map of recent vintage were revised by the Turks: historical names changed, geographical toponyms changed, anthropological and demographic facts distorted. What do you expect to see on the current maps? But if we parrot the Turkish bosh that the easternmost part of ‘Anatolia’ is ‘Eastern Anatolia’ and not the Armenian Plateau, then it will become Eastern Anatolia, and the original name will be forgotten. Exactly what Turks desire. That’s my beef. Also, the recorded history of the mankind is not determined by the “current maps.” Our existence is not limited by the current day alone nor by the emergence of invading Seljuk Turks in the 11th century AD. Our existence is a continuum. If you look at the first map of the world Imago Mundi, dated to the 6th century BC, you’ll find Urartu. If you look at the Eratosthenes map (276-194 BC), Posidonius map (c. 150-130 BC), Pomponius Mela map (c. 43 AD), and Ptolemy map (c. 150 AD), you will find ‘Armenia’, not some ‘Anatolia’.

  459. Part2 (re ‘Anatolia’)
    When Turks deliberately use the term Mount Ağrı’ (sic)  referring to Mount Ararat, while everybody else in the world calls it Mount Ararat.
    When the Turkish Airlines ad running in the Los Angeles county area refers to quote “thousands of years of Turkish culture “ (say what ?).
    When every original toponym in the occupied Armenian and Greek lands has been and is being Turkified.
    When Artsakh’s historic Armenian names were completely Turkified.
    When Turkish Culture and Tourism Ministry Hakan Doganay, says “Urartians, Seljuks and Ottomans lived in Ani,” (deliberately) forgetting (omitting) to mention that Ani is an Armenian city and was a capital of Armenia in the 10th century.
     (“Turkish official denies Armenian origin of Ani” http://news.am/eng/news/70987.html )
     
     
    Then that’s the beef  everyone of us should have and constantly and relentlessly counter.
    Every little ‘innocent’ remark, ‘slip’, ‘mistake’, ‘omission’ is part of the deliberate, calculated campaign to erase any traces of Armenians from our ancestral lands.
     
     
    Given all that, I see no reason to assist Turks in their campaign of White Genocide, after their  (almost completely) successful Red Genocide.
     
    In fact  I will henceforth start referring to the historic toponyms in the occupied lands by their original names, as in Constantinople  (aka Istanbul); Smyrna  (aka Izmir)…..they sound more civilized and noble anyway. If Turks can  call Mount Ararat by the corrupted insulting name of Mount Ağrı’ (sic), then I see no reason not to refer to Constantinople by its original, historic,  beautiful name.

     

  460. avatar ragnar naess // August 28, 2011 at 1:55 pm // Reply

    please, gor, read what I wrote again. The material is important, the preface/introduction and the historical sketch is not, to my mind

  461. the insulting and false statement   ‘The few Seljuks who had arrived most likely blended in (via marriage) with the native Armenians.’ has been noticed and noted  Karekin. 

    You made a similar claim in another thread a while back. 
    At that time I provided a reference to a source – an expert on Seljuk Turk migrations – which showed that there were in fact several million Seljuk Turks who migrated to the Armenian Highlands behind the  vanguard of the Seljuk Turk shock troops.

    I will re-post the reference at a later time. 

  462. Gor
    Did Armenians evolved from ape to human being in eastern Turkey?
    Were the first man and woman on earth Armenian? 
    Thank you for your answers in advance 

  463. please, ragnar naess,   why is it that a contemporary historical sketch that shows Turks’ true colors is, to your mind, less important than a newly-published account for which a Turkey-stationed author has, to your mind, received ‘almost unanimous praise’? Might it be that the reason lies not in an account, but in your general favoritism and preferential treatment of the Turks? Unto-thyself-type honest…

  464. John (if this Christian name is your real name at all),   it’s been a long time already that the theory of evolving from ape to human being has no validity, in case you missed this. Your sarcasm is so primordial. What science does know, however, is that some peoples are autochthonous (indigenous), others are originally alien. Although several theories on the origin of Armenians exist, many scholars come to agree that the Armenian Plateau, in fact, might have been their original birthplace. At the time Armenians had originated there was no such a toponym as ‘eastern Turkey’ because Turkey on the whole had emerged only in 1923, for your knowledge. Also, in case you missed it in the history class (if you’ve ever taken one at all), first man on Earth had, obviously, no ethnicity, but some peoples had originated and formed into nations much earlier than others, for instance, Turks who popped up on the maps only around 10th century AD. Thank you for educating yourself in advance.

  465. when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land

  466. The so called ‘so called’  stolen lands were in fact definitely, unambiguously, factually stolen. Even Turks themselves boast of their origins in the mythical Turan/Turania around Altai Mountains (another theft by Turks: Turanian is an Iranian word). Turks glowingly boast of their martial prowess re the Battle of Manzikert. Why was there a battle there ? Was it because Byzantium  was attempting to invade the homeland of Seljuk Turks ?
     
     
    Even Turks can’t change the massive historical record of Seljuk Turks having travelled thousands of miles, and having invaded the Armenian Highlands from the region of Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains.
     
     
    Star Trek Transporter was not invented at the time, so they must have travelled by land – massacring anyone  who stood in their way.
     
     
    Is there a record of Seljuk Turks having purchased the lands of indigenous inhabitants in a voluntary value-for-value transaction ?
    Was Armenian  real estate exchanged for something valuable ? Massive herds of cattle, horses ? Silver ? Gold ? What ?
    On the other hand there are copious records of Seljuk Turks having taken those lands by fire and sword – that’s why it’s called theft, or ‘stolen’.

  467. John (is that your real name or you are hiding your Turkishness behind a Christian name as Gor stated?  It is just absolutely ridiculeous to use a name that does not belong to you..but then again what does to a Turk right??? 

    You said

     when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land

    HUHHHHHHHHHHHh?????

  468. Karekin– here is a link that may be helpful to you .. it shares the maps and Armenia in relation to each map…….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKjl9lLlisA

    And to all you denialists and Turkophiles… please pay attention to the LAST segment of the clip… but then again, why don’t I include it here.. just in case you miss it…

    ARMENIA:
    A Land that has been torn between the East and the West
    Trampled by all of the fiercest empires in history
    Victim to the most autrocious persecutions
    And yet,
    It has stood the test of time
    From the oldest maps to the latest
    Armenia still exists…..and will exist (emphasis mine)….

    Gayane

  469. Gor jan- you basically said what we have discovered about Ragnar a long long long long long time ago… you are absolutely right in stating the following:

    Might it be that the reason lies not in an account, but in your general favoritism and preferential treatment of the Turks? 

    No question about it my friend.. no question about it.. Ragnar is just that.. he has not fessed up about that but he sure shows through his writing..

  470. avatar ragnar naess // August 29, 2011 at 3:36 am // Reply

    Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages, my critical solidarity with both parties certainly must appear as general favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks

  471. Gayane…thank you for the video…it was excellent. Of course, it’s ridiculous for Turkey to continue to ignore the facts of the historical record that Armenians originated and lived in the eastern half of their current territory for many thousands of years…probably since well into pre-history. As you probably know, some of the oldest human remains have been found in what is now Georgia…just north of the current Armenian border….it is 1.5 million years old. To get there, they clearly came up from the south, meaning they spent time in Armenia. And yes, the political overlay also has a story to tell.  Across history, as you can see from the maps, borders change, populations change, kingdoms…and unfortunately, sadly, once you’ve lost political control of territory, it is very hard to maintain nomenclature. I wish more than anything that Armenians could have hung on in their historical lands west of the Arax, but at this point and as a historian, I can only observe the path of history in an objective way. If your love is truly for the land of Sepastia, or Mush or Van, then you love it no matter what kind of political overlay there might be at any point in history.  It doesn’t mean you like those governments or rulers, but at the same time, don’t turn your back on historical Armenia…and do your best to maintain the one we have now. Wishing and wanting something you can’t have only leads to frustration and stress. Ask any 5 year old.

      

       

  472. great vid Gayane.

  473. Ragnar, it depends on what you have solidarity for.  If your solidarity is with truth and fairness for both sides, I’m sure no one can fault you for this.  But your apparent solidarity with those Turks (not all) and others (McCarthy, etal) who distort the truth, denigrate the Armenians, and deny them justice, casts a shadow on you.  You can see this, can’t you? 
     
    You attack known, established, contemporaneous eye-witness accounts in support of what?    You support modern-day, manufactured versions, skewed toward a Turkish revisionist viewpoint, because…?
    Your goal is a book, not justice, and this puts you at odds with many here.   This is not a personal attack against you, but what you do is a personal slap against the children of the victims.

  474. ‘Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages’
     
     
    The correct term should be demonization of Anti-Armenian Denialist Turks: there is no demonization of ordinary Turks on these pages.
     
     
    And compared  to  someone who referred to Armenian posters here as ‘inbreds’ ,  and who has referred to our murdered, tortured, mutilated ancestors, which included children and babies (born & unborn) in terms reserved for garbage – ‘disposed of’ –  the civility maintained by Armenian writers here, many of whom have blood relatives that were exterminated by Turks, many of whom having heard first-hand eyewitness accounts of the massacres from their own blood relatives – is astonishing, and quite becoming of the high culture passed down to us from our highly civilized and majestic ancestors. 

  475. Well put Avery!

  476. Loved the video, Gayane.  Thanks for sharing.

  477. John,the real problem is the Genocide & as well the stolen lost lands which is much worse, as we’ve been uprooted from our natural habitat of thousand of years & thrown away to the different corners of the earth.With this kind of living we’ve come to understand what we’re missing & that is our HOME.The spirit of the massacred continues on living in us until the day of justice & our return back to our lands.

  478. “when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land”


    No John.  Be careful not to allow yourself to be misled by one particular thread of comments.  Any particular thread will tend  to have its own particular focus, while another will follow another related theme.   It’s like conversation.  And sometimes it’s just the theme of the day.
     
    The current ‘conversation’ between Turks and Armenians will always be about both these issues, and then some (churches, Artsakh, Nakhichevan, Treaty of Sevres, etc,.)  The genocide and stolen land and property are inextricably bound togetherI know most Turks are less nervous at the idea of admitting to genocide than they are about Armenians wanting to reclaim land.   But you can’t really talk about genocide without the question of theft and murder coming up.  And you can’t talk about theft and murder without the question of punishment and compensation coming up.  It is by nature a very complex problem, created by the Turks themselves, and it is high time that Turkey deals with it.   The modern Turkish republic has a debt to pay.  

  479. Boyajian

    I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious. 

  480. Yes indeed..ypu are absolutely correct Boyajian jan in stating.. The Modern Turkish republic has a debt to pay..

    Turkey…..Enough of hiding behind the mightly dollar which by the way was stolen from my ancestors… one day the true ugly face will finally emerge and the rosey colored glasses will break once and for all…. 

  481. Well said Avery jan

    You welcome Boyajian jan…

    VTiger jan-well said… but we know John is confusd as any of his denialists buddies..he does not know what he is talking about.. complete mess..  

    Ragnar—- you should not talk mister…absolutely should not talk about  

    Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages, my critical solidarity with both parties certainly must appear as general favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks

    But you DO show favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks… Do you want me to compile everything that supports my statement?? I can absolutely do it even if it takes me two days to do so.. I did the same thing to show how messed up Robert The Turk is.. so please stop this BS that we demonize the Turks (again. for the GAZILLIONTH, TRILLIONTH, times.. we do not demonize or hate ordinary Turks..it is toward the denialists Turks and the Turkish govt)  and you show no favouritism…

    Boyajian hit the nail with the hammer about your intentions here:   Your goal is a book, not justice, and this puts you at odds with many here.. 

    Gayane
       

  482. John- you said..

    I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious

    You mean Turkish govt has a claim that is very serious?????

    do you mind sharing what their claim is??? I am curious to know.. IF their claim is Armenians did this or Armenians sided with the enemy, Armenians took arms and rebelled against Ottoman Empire.. if Genocide was not Genocide but casualties of the war.. I AM NOT INTERESTED… what other claims would they have besides those???  I am curious to know…

    Please share..

    Thank you

    Gayane      

  483. If you are not interested, They are probably not interested as well. 

  484. What’s their ‘very serious’ claim, John?  Enlighten us, and let’s look into it point by point jointly, if you will, unless you believe, of course, that Turks evolved from apes to humans in eastern Turkey and that the first human on earth was Turk.
     
    Re: interest.  A disinterested government would not finance lobbying groups worldwide, bribe scholars to produce Turkic-centric dubious accounts, and disseminate cheap, unsubstantiated propaganda.

  485. John- of course they should be interested… because the possible claims I provided to you are just another dirty game Turkish govt is playing to create doubt, create illusion of false history…it is better if they start recognizing the claims we brought forth sooner or later….. because the more Turkey tries to hide the more they are called out.. .

      YOU obviously think they have CLAIMS and SERIOUS CLAIMS.. so why don’t you share it with us and as Gor stated we can go point by point.. 

      We know Turkish govt very well and what they claim is nonsense as I stated in my last post.. they are lies to stir everyone away from the real truth; which holds no ground in the realm of what THEIR ancestor did to my ancestors.  So just cut this BS of serious claims John.

    Come to the table with some examples sir but if you do not, I would suggest to keep your posts to yourself….because then those posts turn into just empty nonsense bunch of words….

    Go ahead sir.. we are all ears…

    Gayane    

  486. avatar ragnar naess // August 30, 2011 at 1:35 am // Reply

     Avery,
    about demonization: On august 25 you said: Armenians did relatively well, such
    as it is, in the Ottoman Empire not because of
    it, but despite of it. Compare what
    Walker says: “The millet system has sometimes been praised as a model of just
    administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic. Certainly, as a
    method for administration of conquered people, it was morally ahead of anything
    to come out of Europe at the time or for some time after” (“Armenia, the
    survival of a nation”. Routledge 1980, page 87). These are no small words by an
    author who generally is not favourable to neither Turks nor Turkish government.
    If you go to the ordinary, truth seeking Turk and say: “I respect you
    personally but all your governments have only created havoc and massacred
    people since you came from Central Asia”, see how far you get in your efforts
    to convince him. Will he believe that you respect Turks? Not if you utter
    vilifications which also are completely out of line with what historical research says. Then
    on august 25 you say: “well said Seervart: Turks definitely want to take control of Europe”. This is fantastic, more in line with the sick ideas of the killer we witnessed in Norway on july 22, than with
    any responsible attitude and objective appraisal of Turkey and the European Union. And you also praised Seervard even if he forgot to say “the Turkish government”, but just “Turks”. But let us
    return to the Ottoman Empire.To take the Balkans, Peter Sugar, who wrote a
    history which has been reprinted as a textbook for the University of Washington
    and many other places, being one of the standard book of the history of the
    Ottoman Balkans for more than 20 years. Peter Sugar says: “The rights of
    landlords were strictly regulated in the Ottoman empire and therefore this
    change of overlords usually pleased the peasantry…..this principle safeguarded
    the lowly on the social scale so long as the system worked properly. And made
    ottoman rule preferable to that of unprincipal nobles to the Balkan peasants”.(p.19)
    , and: While the muslim was obviously superior to the non-muslim by definition,
    in practice during the early centuries of the empire people of different creeds
    were often treated almost as equals, in accordance with their profession…….later
    the religious difference became crucial (p.31).Sugar, Peter
    (1977/1966): Southeastern Europe under Ottoman Rule, 1354-1804. A history of
    East Central Europe. University of Washington Press. Seattle and London. – Now, this was the Balkans and not Eastern Anatolia or the Armenian highlands. But it characterises the Ottoman Empire at its best. I cannot see that vilifying the  Ottoman Empire helps Armenians in their fight for their just cause

  487. avatar ragnar naess // August 30, 2011 at 1:46 am // Reply

    Karekin, you write: “The question is….what happened in 1915?  Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?  Why did they turn against their most productive and loyal citizens?  This is the real question. Even the sultans didn’t go beserk in such a genocidal way, because they were smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication. But, the goons of the CUP did…tell us, why?”. Comment: I am not in the position to give a comprehensive answer, but the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the  combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made them attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns. There was undoubtedly an element of paranoia in this, which shows itself in the fury unleached on completely innocent people. But if you ask for an explanation of a horrible  policy which targeted Armenians as such, I would look at these factors. It is not unexplainable, but certainly inexcusable.

  488. Robert Melson’s book, Revolution & Genocide, paints a very clear,  unbiased picture of the CUP’s insanity…and while paranoia might have played a part, the cost of war, loss of territory and the idea that outright theft would solve their problems are probably more essential. I don’t believe the genocide had a religious basis, though the CUP goons certainly used religion as a helpful cudgel, much as it’s being used in the US today to wage wars around the world. I think it was, at its core, economic.  Just like Hitler, and in anticipation of him, they were power hungry and thought they were invincible.  As many of us have seen play out in US courts, and then upheld in courts around the world, according to most common law practice, stolen property can be restored to its proper owners (or their descendants) even long after they are are gone.  I think Erdogan’s intent to return confiscated properties is something of a start, but does not go far enough and is not nearly historically inclusive enough. At the least, it should be retroactive to 1923, or even earlier, to 1915, if he really wants to make amends that actually begin to address minority concerns. 

    And by the way, as I see it, the sultans were synonymous with imperialism….they and their armies are what expanded the empire over the centuries. They can’t be separated.   

  489. What a nonsense is your comment, rangar naess:    “[…]the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns.”
     
    In terms of experiences of targeted massacres, for Armenians the times of imperialism were not essentially different from the times of the Sultans in that Armenians have seen mass murders during the Ittihadists as have they seen mass murders earlier, during the reign of Sultan Abdulhamid II.
     
    Turkish nationalism began with the Turanian Society founded in 1839 (note the year), followed in 1908 with the Turkish Society, which later expanded into the Turkish Hearth and eventually expanded to include ideologies such as pan-Turanism and pan-Turkism. In 1839, Ottoman Armenians were still considered millet-i-sadika (loyal millet).
     
    Combined threat of the powers to the Ottoman empire was dealt not only by the ethnic Turks. Tens of thousands of Ottoman Armenians fought bravely at the fronts defending the empire.
     
    Aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population were not a uniquely Armenian phenomenon. All the colonized peoples of the empire stood up for their self-determination rights, including the Turks’ fellow Muslims, Arabs. However, only Armenians were deliberately exterminated as a race.
     
    The experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 occurred because Turks waged wars in those years in which atrocities occur to all warring parties and their civil population. Ethnic Turks represented a warring party. Hence, they suffered atrocities. Conversely, Armenians were not a party to any war, nor were the majority of their provinces anywhere near the frontlines. Regardless the fact, they were subjected to genocidal extermination.
     
    [All the above] “created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians.” There’s hardly any evidence of the Armenians’ involvement, except for aspirations for independence of a few Armenian revolutionaries that could have created “a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians”. Armenians did not figure in any of the delirious arguments (except for their revolutionaries’ independence aspirations) that could have invited the Turks’ ‘siege mentality’ to them. Only sick mentality could have made Turks attack Armenians who were by any measure the reason of their woes.
     
    As for “[…]attack Armenians, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns”, one may be chagrined as to how a human rights defender can so primitively explain the savage extermination of innocent people whose only desire was to live peacefully and securely on their lands, and who didn’t even realize that they had “rights in the eyes of the powers”.

  490. The whole “treatment of Armenians” in the Ottoman Empire brings up an interesting topic.

    Take for instance the treatment of Jews in both the Russian Empire and compare it the situation of Jews in German/ Austro-Hungarian domains prior to WWI.

    In Russia, the Jews lived under many restrictions, forced to live in the Pale of Settlement, not allowed to own land, subject to random pogroms, openly reviled by non-Jews, taxed almost into oblivion, etc. Russian society was especially backward at this time and Jews were particularly vulnerable.

    In German/ Austro-Hungarian territories (there was no unified Germany until after the Franco-Prussian War), Jews accumulated great wealth (perhaps the wealthiest segment in German society), served in high positions in the military and government, were allowed to flourish and made great advancements to modern science, commerce, etc. In contrast to Russia, these lands were increasingly cosmopolitan and progressive.

    Now which society committed the holocaust?

    What is my point?  When the chips are down, the hard-working minority with wealth will be slaughtered, will be scapegoated for the failures and defeats of the majority (often reviled and blamed problems the majority actually created for themselves). The majority will focus their negative energies not on the government but on the vulnerable minority that seemingly live carefree lives. The minority will be demonized, they will be subject to abuse, they will be robbed, and for having the audacity to defend themselves from such abuses, will be branded traitors.

    This happened in the Ottoman Empire/Turkey before and during WWI and Germany after WWI and during WWII

  491. Ragnar. Don’t bother filling endless paragraphs with endless quotes from an endless list of authors: I couldn’t care less.
     
    I don’t engage in high-brow discourse with people who call Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’  and refer to our exterminated ancestors using terms reserved for garbage – ‘disposed of’.  People who pretend to be fair and balanced, but who invariably slip, like you did, and show their true colors and attitude for Armenians get no quarter from me. You hate Armenians with a passion. My job is to shout-down people like you. Every time you want to say something to me, you’ll get the same treatment and response.
     
     
    As to my praise for  Seervart: not only I stand by what I wrote to her, but I will proudly reaffirm it here: “well said Seervart: Turks definitely want to take control of Europe”.  How do I know this to be true ?
     
    Here: ["Erdogan urges German Turks not to integrate"
    “At the meeting last month, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan urged Turks living in foreign countries to take out citizenship of the new homelands – not to integrate, but rather to become more politically active, according to the website of news magazine Der Spiegel.”]  http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100317-25933.html  (17 Mar 10 14:49 CET)
     
     
    Not to integrate, but rather become more politically active: I call that taking over. Case closed.

  492. “[…]vilifications which also are completely out of line with what historical research says [re: orgins of Turks in Central Asia].”    ragnar naess, since you clearly are under the delusion that only your ‘historical research’ is refined, do please lay out your ratiocinations as to where else the Turks might have come from, how they appeared in Asia Minor, and what happened to the indigenous peoples inhabiting the area for millennia after the Turks’ invasions?

  493. John, writes:

    “Boyajian, I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious.”


    What is this claim, John?  What claim could Turkey have that takes precedence over Turkey paying a debt for the death of nearly 2 million people and the elimination of an indigenous people from its homeland? 
     
    This is a game that Turkey plays to avoid facing their guilt:  pretending that they had a proper justification for the criminal acts against their Christian minorities.   It will be a dark day for mankind when a government can claim ‘justification’ for such crimes against its own citizens.

  494. ragnar naess,   I’d like to address your citation from Christopher Walker’s Armenia: The Survival of a Nation  (Avery,  I hope you don’t mind, since the comment was addressed to you).
     
    On page 87 Walker, indeed, states that “the millet system has sometimes been praised as a model of just administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic. Certainly, as a method for administration of conquered people, it was morally ahead of anything to come out of Europe at the time or for some time after.”  You claim that these are no small words by an author who generally is not favorable to either Turks or Turkish government, but you forgot to tell the posters that you conveniently omitted the rest of Walker’s paragraph. Here’s what follows “for some time after” after a colon:
     
    […] : compare the Spanish conquest of South America, or the behaviour of the Portuguese conqueror D’Albuquerque who, during his expedition of 1507 along the shores of the Persian Gulf, mutilated Muslim prisoners of both sexes with the object of inspiring terror.”

    In other words, the millet system was certainly better than physical annihilation and mutilations of a people. Even in the fraction that you chose to cite Walker doesn’t state univocally that the millet system was favorable for the conquered, colonized people. He says: “the millet system has sometimes been praised [by whom? Turks and Turkophiles?] as a model of just administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic [again, by whom? – G].”  However, on pages 88 and 89, Walker demonstrates that although Armenians didn’t suffer the fate of the South American aborigines or Muslim prisoners of D’Albuquerque (only until 1894-96, 1909, and 1915-23 — G), the millet system was discriminatory and unbearable.
     
    Here’s a passage in its entirety that follows the paragraph from which you selectively chose a fragment:
     
    “In terms of results, too, it was a cleverly contrived system, since the ruler soon drew the benefits[...], while waiting for the districts to become profitable. Even at the early stage there were flaws in the Ottoman system, which were later to make the position of Armenians quite intolerable. Besides this enormous general disadvantage, Armenians suffered from certain specific discriminations. As Christians, they were not permitted to bear arms, which laid them open to their predatory neighbours. Their religion did give them the benefit of exemption from military service (although it also meant that no officer class could emerge among them), since only a Muslim might draw his sword in the defence of Islam. Nevertheless Christians were subjected to the devshirme, or boy-collection, whereby officials used to take children from the Christian communities, educate them as Muslims and put them into the Ottoman civil service. By the end of the 16th century devshirme was an established practice in certain Armenian localities. As regards taxation, all Christians were required to pay poll-tax and, where relevant, property tax. These taxes were not collected in an orderly manner; more often it was a question of officials just extorting as much as they could from the people, who had no redress. One disability which the Armenians alone of the Christian peoples of the empire had to bear, and one that was resented most especially, was the obligation to provide free winter quarters (kishlak) to the nomadic Kurds and to their flocks, often for four to six months each year. Besides the disagreeable presence of squatters, they ran up large expenses in providing food and animal foodstuffs.”
     
    And then, on page 89, Walker concludes:
     
    “The [millet] system was a degrading humiliation. All these factors led to the steady impoverishment of the Armenians. In every sphere they were reminded that they were inferior to Muslims, and were consequently reduced to frightened subservience.”
     
    No further comments…

  495. ragnar naess,   about what happened in 1915. Your interpretation:  “[…]the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made them attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns.”
     
    Compare what Lewis says:
     
    “For the Turks, the Armenian movement was the deadliest of all threats. From the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very heart of the Turkish homeland—and to renounce these lands would have meant not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state.”
     
    These are no small words by an author who generally is not favorable to either Armenians or the Armenian Diaspora or the Armenian government.
     
    Bernard Lewis, The Emergence of Modern Turkey

  496. CAN SOMEONE SAY…. GOR just won his Case and RAGNAR lost his in a very embarassing way…in people’s court.. Case closed….I say I CAN….

    Gor and Avery JAN.. yes dzer tsav@ tanem… yes dzezanov hpart em… HPART…:)  

  497. I would never mind one of my compatriots responding on my behalf Gor: all for one, one for all. We are one team battling Denialists.  I admire your patience with certain posters. 

     

  498. Gor

    Bernard Lewis is spot on. I have just finished a book called ” Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey& A Disputed Genocide” writen by Guenter Lewy. He tells the details of the Armenian Indipendence movement which is exactly the opposite of what you try to portray here. The economic reasons are virtialy nil as Greeks stayed in the Western Turkey untill the end of the WW1 and they weren’t deported. I haven’t read the book of Bernard lewis but Guenter Lewy and Bernard Lewis seem to point  out the Armenian Independence movement therefore either they or you must be wrong.

    It is amazing to see how some Armenians interpret the subjects exactly the opposite way. Erdogan didn’t say ” do not integrate” He did say ” Please integrate but do not allow to be assimilate . What is wrong with it? Avery, You are a loss case. I am not hopeful that you will see the light at the end of the tunnel

  499. Monastras— I believe my friend Avery asked you this question numerous times, and yet to receive a response…

    Please be so kind to answer a direct question TO YOU before you continue asking your own questions.. Understood????

    {Guest – Monastras
    2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
    (posted @Hurriyet)

    Yes or No ?

    We are all ears…

    Gayane  
     
     

  500. Do you affirm or do you retract – with apologies  - your post below:
    {Guest – Monastras 
    2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
    (posted @Hurriyet)

    Yes or No ?

    In case you haven’t figured it out by now, Madam, every one of your posts addressed to me on any thread will be answered with a re-paste of your Denialist post from Hurriyet.

    Affirm it proudly for all to see here @AW, or deny and withdraw it with shame and apologies: we can take it from there. 

  501. you beat me to it, sister Gayane. I am honored and proud. Very proud indeed of our Armenian Lady Samurai. A lightening flash of high-carbon layered steel……and another one bites the dust.

  502. Avery jan-it is a pleasure to be o the same side as you… always…I watch your back and you do the same for me..and as promised I will remind Monastras and Robert the same thing over and over… and I intend to keep my promise..:)

    Always an honor

    Gayane
    Aka… Armenian Lady Samurai

  503. Hello John,

    Did you ever get the list of the SERIOUS CLAIMS you suggest Turkey has?? because we are still waiting… please don’t delay….we are eager to hear what you have to say…

    John
    August 29, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Boyajian
    I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious.

      

  504. monastras,    I understand you have an insulting post which you’re required to affirm or retract. Until you do that, I won’t respond to your bloviations re: Lewy’s book or how Lewy was amply rewarded by Turkish authorities through the launching of a campaign to distribute his distortionist book free of charge to libraries and to select groups of diplomats.

    P.S. Have you ever read any account written by a scholar who’s not a genocide denialist, by any chance? Or you only read what soothes your ears? Genocide scholars’ accounts massively outnumber a few accounts by the denialists, did you know that?

  505. I did read the Taner Akcam book which is in my library. I asked him to answer my questions but he hasn’t replied. I haven’t seen any answer to my questions in his writings as well.

  506. BTW, I have a a first edition of the “Emergence of Modern Turkey” by Bernard Lewis. It was my father’s from college. You would be interested to know that he called it the “Armenian holocaust” and did a pretty good job of laying out the environment that lead to the holocaust/genocide. He also did a thorough breakdown of various CUP members and their roles in the holocaust. 

    In subsequent editions of the book the term Armenian Holocaust was omitted.

    This occurred largely because Lewis was going to be denied access to Turkish archives if he did not submit to their official directives not too mention a large donation to Princeton from the Turkish government for the Middle East Dept.  This is not just my opinion but holds sway amongst his academic peers as well.

    At the time, he one of the few Middle East scholars of any renown. He desperately wanted to remain in the good graces of Turkish authorities and so essentially made a deal with the devil. Additionally, Lewis began to develop Neo-conservative tendencies before it became so widespread, meaning that his views were pro-Israel, pro- Zionist, and mirrors Lewy’s views:

    1. As long as Israel and Turkey get along, we will advocate for Turkey
    2. There WAS, IS, AND WILL ONLY EVER BE be one genocide and it happened to the Jews full-stop. 
     

  507. Gor jan… I am sure Monastras does not..unfortunately….it would have been nice to see her convert into he righteous side of the path but the way she is going, hmmmm.. who knows???

    Gayane

  508. Joseph- Thank you for your post.. it gives a clear picture who this loser Lewis is.. another bought individual by the Turkish govt.. not surprised…

    Gayane

  509. Joseph,this is a very important observation which I did not know about.Very enlightening.Could you please give the details of this 1st edition(print date/publishing house etc) together with the page numbers where ‘Armenian Holocaust’ is mentioned?Many thanks in advance.

  510. avatar ragnar naess // August 31, 2011 at 3:37 am // Reply

    gor
    youwrite: [All the above] “created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians.” There’s hardly any evidence of the Armenians’ involvement, except for aspirations for independence of a few Armenian revolutionaries that could have created “a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians”.
    Comment . you get me wrong. the siege mentality didnt need much Armenian involvement to lead to a targeting of the Armenians, it was in the main produced by the experiences of 1877-78 and 1912-13, not by the Armenians, but of course armenian revolutionaries contributed to the siege mentality and paranoia. As I say this was a paranoia, and paranoic people overeact, they may even murder. I was not commenting on the Armenian involvement in this section of my text. But may be you only read in my comments what you already have decided is meant by me?

  511. avatar ragnar naess // August 31, 2011 at 4:08 am // Reply

    avery
    I feel you are a bit hard on Monastras. We should rather discuss. Monastras, the opinion that the deportations and massacres of Ottoman Armenians in 1915-16 constitutes genocide is not only shared by Armenians. It is shared by the majority of relevant historians, right or wrong, and the general opinion in the West. As you probably have noticed I agree with most of the parties in some, but not in all, but I disagree that the whole issue is some Armenian construction. Do you really mean this?

  512. Bernard Lewis is an old man who has been anti-Armenian and anti-genocide for his entire career, and appears to be well connected the micro-community of those who subscribe to such views. Yes, he is a scholar and an academic, but let’s remember that does not mean his work is honest, truthful or even objective. He promotes a stilted point of view as academic research, but does not reveal his filters.  He promotes a very specific angle that gets him accolades in certain, micro communities who - very lemming-like – stand in awe, rather than level any honest critique of his assertions. While not a complete fraud like Lewy or McCarthy, he is another in a long line of opportunists who suck at the teat of the Turkish propaganda machine and got a big head in the process.   

  513. I cited Bernard Lewis to demonstrate that even a notorious genocide denier like him concludes in The Emergence of Modern Turkey that Armenians represented the deadliest of threats for the Turks not because, as ragnar naess wrongly claims, the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans or because nationalism, augmented by the threat of the Powers, Ottoman Christians’ aspirations for independence, and the experiences of massacres of Turks in the wars of 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians, even women and children, but because Turks wished to keep for themselves as much land and properties at the expense of the Armenians. Turks understood that renouncing the Armenian lands would have meant the dissolution of the Turkish state. This is the major reason of perpetrating the genocide against Armenians who otherwise—except their few revolutionaries’ aspirations for independence that were common to all of the oppressed peoples of the Ottoman empire–posed no real threat to the Turks. As much as I despise sell-out Lewis, I think his conclusion has some validity. Lewis, to me, is pettier wormling than McCarthy and Lewy. At least these two stuck to their guns as genocide deniers at all times. Lewis, on the other hand, at first described the Armenian massacres as “the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a million and a half Armenians perished” in the first two editions of The Emergence of Modern Turkey (1961 and 1968), but then altered the text to: “the terrible slaughter of 1915, when, according to estimates, more than a million Armenians perished, as well as an unknown number of Turks.”