The battle lines are drawn. The next three years leading up to the 100thanniversary of the Armenian Genocide will witness a continued, steady, but firm advance of truth and justice in academic, legal, and political arenas on both sides of the Atlantic. The “Return of Churches” resolution in Congress; the lawsuits in the U.S. and Europe demanding the return of church properties stolen from the Armenians during and after the genocide; the bill criminalizing genocide denial in France; and the discussions in the Israeli Knesset—all within the last weeks of 2011—are a harbinger of things to come.
These successes of varying degree and significance were registered due to the unrelenting efforts of Armenian communities worldwide, an increasing awareness of the genocide by the world, and favorable political winds. They were not precipitated by an absence of counter-efforts by the Turkish state, but despite them. Threats of a diplomatic and economic nature, lawsuits, and the intimidation of scholars have become hallmarks of the official Turkish response. These policies will undoubtedly continue in the next few years.
Yet the more significant threat to the tidal wave of truth and justice is the Turkish government’s policy to undermine Armenian efforts by not mere denial and disengagement, but rather direct engagement with Armenia and the diaspora. Discussions in diplomatic circles and the Turkish press have increasingly focused on the search for innovative ways to deal with the “Armenian problem.” From the Turkey-Armenia protocols to talk of “engaging the Armenia Diaspora,” efforts by the Turkish political elite are focused on swaying Armenians and world public opinion towards a “middle ground.”
The ideas floating around in Turkey include granting descendants of genocide survivors Turkish citizenship, commemorating the “joint suffering” of Armenians and Turks during World War I, and normalizing relations with Armenia. Strikingly, even these meager steps—which fail to address the core issues of truth and justice—are being raised in the Turkish media as a means to impede Armenian efforts, and not as a genuine effort to provide a remedy for the crime of genocide.
On the other hand, there is a very small, yet vocal group of Turkish citizens (Turks, Kurds, Armenians, and others) who continue to adamantly criticize the country’s public discourse on the Armenian genocide.
As the pressure continues to mount on the Turkish state in the lead up to the 100thanniversary of the genocide in 2015, we must reemphasize our parameters for engagement: truth and justice. The rest is window-dressing.
All the peoples of the former Ottoman empire especially the Lebanese, Iraqis and Syrians feel with the Armenians because they have been also oppressed and in Lebanon there was also a less known genocide in which two thirds of Mount Lebanon’s population died out of hunger because the Ottoman troops took all their wheat and food.
Now the Turks are trying to help overthrowing the secular Syrian government by the hands of the Moslem Brothers, the Salfis, Al Qaeda and other extremists financed by Arab theocracies and supported by Western countries. If they are victorious, there will be the same ethnic and confessional cleansing as was done in Iraq and Turkey will be tempted to renew its Empire with the Arab new Isalamic countries from Damascus to Saudi Arabia and from Damacus to Morocco. Only Israel will be blocking its way, which will cause the next regional war between the two. With which of the two allies the West will stand?
Roger, thank you for your insightful comment. We are watching many deceitful things happening. Isn’t it strange, they once again all come down to faith?
It has nothing to do with faith and never has. It has always been about interests. Why else would Western countries support and finance Muslim theocracies? It obviously cannot be about faith.
Excellent editorial:
This paragraph { “Strikingly, ……for the crime of genocide.”} is worth re-reading.
Various Turcophile agents, posing as Armenians or friends of Armenians, use Armenian forums, including AW, to sow seeds of discord and confusion, by preaching the same things mentioned in the Editorial. Attempting to insert a wedge between RoA and Diaspora by painting Diaspora as uncompromising, or presumably harming RoA, by relentlessly conflating any and all human tragedies with the AG to dilute its significance and its ‘bite’, “Turks also suffered, even more than Armenians”, “There were Genocides all over the world, why are Armenians given special treatment”, and on and on.
The Turkish counteroffensive will intensify and become more subtle, sophisticated from now on, as their previous methods lose effectiveness.
Agreed 100% Avery jan..
Heads up and eyes open everyone!
One almost feels sorry for you people. You really don’t have a clue, do you? You are correct in that the countdown has already begun…but be prepared for an unpleasant surprise. If you remember anything, just remember this…not everything is as it always seems to appear. Remember Pandora’s Box?
We are deeply touched by your concern for Armenians,Turk-oglu Robert.
Maybe we have a clue, or maybe we don’t.
Just the same, why don’t you enlighten us anyway: tell us what are we missing..
Don’t be shy: you are amongst friends.
We’ll be gentle.
more bad news for you Denialists, Turk-oglu Robert.
Even Algerians themselves are not buying the false Algerian tie-in that everyone from your Pres Gül & PM Erdoğan down to Minister Bağış, to editorials in Turkish news media has been spewing at France.
{“Algerian Prime Minister Ahmed Ouyahia urged Turkey Saturday to stop trying to make political capital out of France’s killing of thousands of Algerians during the colonial period.”} (The Vancouver Sun – January 7, 2012)
{“Ouyahia noted that Turkey had been a member of NATO during the war in Algeria and as such had provided material support to France.”}
Ouch: that’s got to hurt.
Avery: I read the same article. From what I understood, the Algerian PM wanted his ” (Turkish) friends to stop making capital out of Algeria’s colonization”
He wants Turkey to stop using the massacres to attack France for being hypocrites, he made no comment on whether he believes it was genocide or not. Did you read the article?
Oh lookie here.. the liar is among us again.. Robert what we are clueless? are you going to tell us the same thing like .. oh prepare yourself.. there are projects in the pipe line that will come to light very soon.. and BS like that?? what are you denialists cooking? another Genocide????
Ohhh that burns Avery..
I sure would like to shake the Algerian Prime Minister’s hand…
RVDV:
Read my post again where I mentioned PM Ouyahia.
You can play games with words, so can I.
PM Ouyaha said what he said, without mentioning the word Genocide.
(Note specifically what words he used.)
And I wrote what I wrote without mentioning the word Genocide.
He also said this, which you failed to reproduce in your post, but conveniently reproduced the sentence with “(Turkish) friends”
{“Ouyahia noted that Turkey had been a member of NATO during the war in Algeria and as such had provided material support to France.”}
You understand what message PM Ouyahia was conveying to Pres Gül & PM Erdoğan in diplomatic language, Yes ?
I will reproduce here part of what Boyajian wrote, addressing you, RVDV.
She says it very well:
“….Or is it your love-hate relationship with Turks and Turkey and with Armenians? You do seem to harbor some contempt of Armenians….”
I mentioned this to you before: you are too intelligent not to know what you are doing. Be on the level with us, and we can do some work.
Please…Don’t get confused with Arabs
That they accept the turks because of their religion
As an Armenian grown up in Arab counties
They never support Turkish politics
So they know how much they suffered under Ottoman’s regime
Still it exist in their memories
Transmitted from from generation to generation…
Their painful stories
They suffered for 500 hundred years…
As Armenians did…
There is Arabic proverb which says,
A real man will not be knocked by enemies twice
To say, once is enough…
“That they accept the turks because of their religion”
What a relief. We were just DYING for their acceptance and approval.
RVDV, I think you misunderstand Sylva. I think she is saying that Arabs don’t automatically bond with Turks because they have the same religion. She is saying that Arabs remember their own mistreatment by the Ottomans and therefore have compassion for Armenians. Am I right Sylva.
To take the concluding line as a model, I think it is is wiser to say: We must sharpen the charge of Genocide against Turkey more with each passing day so that it has no way out by 2015. Anything else will be a resounding defeat. ANYTHING else. The ‘window dressing’, the talk of mutual calamity, the enlightened columns we see in Zaman and Hurriyet which are never read by the Turkish masses but which electrify so many Armenians in the West (yes, the government even allows them to say ‘genocide’! hurrah-hurrah), the ‘come let us reason together’ approach is all a sham and a trap. 2015 will come only once and Turkey knows it. Without the Turkish government’s orchestrated annihilation of the Ottoman Armenians the word genocide would never have come into existence. That is the word Turkey–of all the nations of the earth–must deal with.
“That they accept the turks because of their religion”
What a relief. We were just DYING for their acceptance and approval.
RVDV,
I sometimes have difficulty to understand who you are…..
I’ve said it before: I am ethnic Kurd and a proud Turkish citizen- who can see and apologize for the crimes of my forefathers.
Necati.. you still have the balls to post here without an apology to us for your obscene and rude comment???
You are absolutely right.. you do have a problem of understanding…
RVDV, I think it’s your love of sarcasm that confuses people. Or is it your love-hate relationship with Turks and Turkey and with Armenians? You do seem to harbor some contempt of Armenians. In any case, I am glad to accept your open-mindedness about Turkey’s need to apologize for the genocide.
Boyajian:
Or is it your love-hate relationship with Turks and Turkey and with Armenians? You do seem to harbor some contempt of Armenians.
True, I do have a love-hate relationship with Turks and Turkey. Even I’m not sure exactly how I feel so it’s really hard to explain it. As for Armenians- I have no ill feeling towards Armenians- I have no reason to hate or dislike them. What have Armenians ever done to me? Nothing. Turks? The oppressed my people and culture for decades and labeled us as Mountain Turks.
And I have no ill-will against Turks. I simply want justice for the Armenians. If you can face the truth and not disintegrate, and other Turkish citizens have as well, I am sure we will see justice done in the near future. It is a shame that the governments of Turkey have not faced the truth and issued an official apology to the Armenian nation, but more and more Turkish citizen’s eyes are opening everyday. It is only a matter of time before people realize how deceived they have been. And while there may be some backlash in Turkish attitudes toward Armenians because of laws criminalizing genocide denial like the one in France, I also believe that it will open the eyes of many Turks.
To point to Armenian uprisings, as many Turks do, as justification for instituting full-scale deportations as ‘necessary security measures’ is naive and fails to take into account the Hamidian massacres of the 1890’s and the Adana massacre of 1909 (which show a policy of violence against Armenians that was long standing before the genocide of 1915.) After so much oppression, who would blame Armenians for demanding rights and seeking self-determination?
Turks today, think of themselves and their nation as democratic, but that is far from the truth of what the Ottoman empire was before the establishment of the modern republic—which was built on the bones of countless innocent people. And Turkey today still has a long way to go before it is a nation of equal civil rights for all its citizens.
Yes I think that the attempt to deflect attention from the issue of Genocide recognition by the Prime Minister of Turkey, Mr Erdogan by equating it with the war in Algeria is absurd. This is an issue which France has to come to terms with. The actual law that is proposed in France is against denial of any Genocide. Why is this not a good thing? There are too many negationists out there
who want to deny the sufferings of others. It would not take much for the current Turkish government to apologize for the crimes of the Young Turks, it’s not as if they are the same government!! Their reluctance to do so and their continuing oppression of the Kurdish movement sends out a signal to the civilized world that they are not a truly democratic country but rather hide behind a sham illusion. The current party is silencing free speech.
The actual law that is proposed in France is against denial of any Genocide.
Tell that to the paranoid Turkish government. Apparently money and land mean more to the Turkish government than ending the suffering and indignity of a people who have waited nearly 100 years for justice. Turkey is a democracy- if you are a Sunni Turk, otherwise, not so much.
Well said Helen…
Roger talked about a less known genocide in which two thirds of Mount Lebanon’s population died out of hunger because the Ottoman troops took all their wheat and food.
During my research I discovered an unpublished memoir by an Armenian Turkish officer in charge of the 1915 labor battalions on the Amanus Range who “entertained” Talaat’s chief of the code returning from Lebanon on his way to Constantinople.
“Why the famine?” the Armenian Turkish officer asked.
The government,” he answered, “created the famine artificially. The government forbade the import of any kind of wheat or cereal from Aleppo, from Antioch, from anywhere. There is hunger, famine in Lebanon,” he said, “people are dying in the streets like dogs, like flies. So far a hundred thousand of them are dead already. “
The next morning when our guest was leaving, he shook hands with us, thanked us and handed me his calling card. I read his title, “Chief of the Code of the Minister of Interior.”
We, two Armenians, unwittingly, had given food and shelter to the right hand man of Talaat Pasha, the Minister of Interior, the butcher and the executioner of the Armenian race—our race.
We had entertained the man whose hand had written all the codes, all the secret correspondence, all the secret orders from the Minister of Interior to the governors of the states to exterminate our own people.
Doubtless, he was sent over to Lebanon to see with his own eyes and witness that the extermination order was carried through to the letter; to see and witness that they were dying like dogs and flies. And this man was inviting us into his office for a return visit. How polite! How thoughtful!
Where does intent play into this historical event?
Armenians should face their history.
Dear Armenians , please , please and please, just one time.
Face the actual history. See the facts. Do not be the followers of liers.
Gayane,
if you were grown up in MY country Turkey ; you ,as a young single girl, would never use that word “balls”. And i would never have to reply you in the same manner..
I am not accusing you but American culture which actually never existed..
the progeny of uncultured barbarian nomadic invading warrior Seljuk Tribes whose level of cultural achievement at the time was a well constructed Yurt, and who wantonly and with great relish destroyed a 4,000 year culture and civilization is not capable of understanding or judging the highly developed concept of culture.
A Turk who insults a person’s dead grandmother in such vile, disgusting language is not allowed to comment on the culture of Armenians, or another Armenian.
This is what you wrote Turk-oglu Necati, addressing it to an Armenian poster:
{necati , __________, whenever your grand mother opens her underwear in the tomb, then ATASE will open strategic archives of Turkish Army.}
(posted @ TZ, 26 December 2011)
Avery,
nothing is worse than getting happy on the death of 25 young boys…
remember that , my sweety hero ?
24 fully armed, uniformed TSK troops were Killed in Action in hours long, fair firefights with PKK guerrillas. That’s what happens in war: soldiers die.
Unlike your cowardly ancestors who murdered unarmed Armenian civilians, including pregnant women, children, babies.
Unlike your cowardly ancestors who were so afraid of fighting age armed Armenian men, that they disarmed all Armenian troops serving in the Ottoman Armed Forces before massacring them.
2 million of them. Which you and your Denialist buddies openly celebrate.
Here:
{necati says: July 15, 2011 at 4:48 am was not 1million killed by Turks, it was 10milyon…so what ?} (posted @ Asbarez)
You understand the difference between KIA and murder, Sweetie ?
This guy appears to be part of the Turkish counteroffensive.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-267656-false-use-of-genocide-may-haunt-israel-in-future.html
He’s essentially trying to justify massacres of civilians as part of self-defense.
Basically they want to emphasize the deportation aspects and minimize the outright massacres and make it appear that the Armenian population was in revolt and thus a threat.
This Tal Buenos is also playing a new angle where the Armenian genocide is not genocide because it was not like the Holocaust. A crime does not have be to like the Holocaust in order to be considered genocide.
Read the article Random Armenian.. thanks.. it is obvious the guy is no different than any other denialist.. Tal Buenos is Tal Malo.. Bad bad bad
I have a suggestion to all Armenian intellectuals, leaders be they churchmen or lay, writers , scholars etc: suspend any contacts with official circles in Turkey, suspend any scheme of co-operation and exchange of sugar coated niceties with them believing that such exchanges would change the attitude of the Turkish state vis-a-vis the Armenian Genocide or the fate of minorities actually living there. Instead concentrate on preparing and publishing briefs, research papers, articles , media instruments that illuminate the various apsects of the Genocide , its implications, its social, political and economic effects, the damage done to our cultural heritage in a language easily understood by all and common to all , that of justice, civil and human rights. We must avoid emotional outbursts no matter how deep the pain is, and most importantly things that are not based on facts because the other side will jum on it to show how ” Armenians exagerate their claims”. I am sure we all know that Turkey through its various agencies have been reading carefully what is published in Armenian or otherwise in the Diaspora. So let us in preparation of the 100 th anniversary commemoration of the Genocide put on a show od scholarship never seen before.
This makes sense to me.
Necati and Robert,
I question the sanity of a Turkish Nazi who trolls Armenian sites seeking attention. You seem wed to this bizarre pastime. You aren’t frightening anyone, either. This isn’t the wild steppe, and you aren’t Mongol horsemen.
I also question the utility of responding to Nazis, Genocide deniers and racists such as Necati and Robert. If you ignore them long enough they will go pick fights with Lebanese, Alewis, Kurds, Jews, Europeans, Maronites, Greeks, Bulgarians, Anatolian Greeks, Persians, Madeans, Zoroasters, Pontic Greeks, Kurds, Zazas, Assyrians,Nestorians, Turkish Liberals, and all the other groups their state has murdered and oppressed for centuries.
By responding to them, you are feeding their desires for attention. Its not as if the scales will fall from their eyes and they will convert to Christianity when you make some pithy point.
Plus, they can barely eke out something that looks like an English language sentence, sorry Necati, but in the time I have been seeing you hallucinatory English prose, you could have learned how to write to the level of a Japanese tourist. They even have software for that. Voice-activated software, no less.
You are obviously a poorly educated person, and while Robert can sling together the components of an English sentence, he appears to have been in the middle of his class at the nearest JC on his best day. My advice: read a lot, and learn something.
The hateful and inhuman ideas of these and other primitive Nazi-Turks are easily tackled. One does not need to reference Genghis Khan or medieval torture to focus on the inhumanity of Turkish society towards its minorioties and liberals today.
You actually thrill these goonish shut-ins when you do.
Best advice: ignore them. Second best advice: avoid the name calling, it only thrills them. They like to be seen as the conquerors of the wild steppe, even if they live over a garage and fume at the Carl’s Jr. ad with Ms.Turkey, who is also I am sure on their death list.
Yes! Enough time spent on them.
Necati, Necati Genis or …. a misplaced conception. It is now quite clear that this person or group of persons/agents under one name is/are carrying out a special goal here. A distinct aspect of his/their comments is to provoke, to enrage, to add injury to the wound, to divert the course of discussions and thus to prevent free exchange of ideas, not to engeage in meaningful debate. That is what the fascist governments are most afraid of. They are probably even afraid that their fellow Turks might visit these pages and get “infected” by the free and open discussions going on here. So, why not to prevent it with this “smart” method?. I suggest fellow commentators to disregard his/their “comments” as much as possible. The saying goes: “dogs will bark, but the caravan will go his way steadfastly”.
Necati,
You can have your turkey balls back, soon you stop drinking raki and commenting in AW!!!! For 97 years Turks played with European balls now, and yet they’ve got no results to hide the truth!! It is time for Turks to show the world, that they have real balls to recognize Christian Genocide of Turkey for the first and last time, and stop playing “bally- ball” with Armenians!!
Grish jan.. mera ..lol shat lav asetsir..lol apres..
Avery: “I mentioned this to you before: you are too intelligent not to know what you are doing. Be on the level with us, and we can do some work.”
I’ve said it before, I’m not here to divert the topic and make the Armenian genocide seem like less of a crime. I have no hidden motive. I am not here to insult or disrespect anyone’s ancestors- and I make a conscious effort to pick the right words so I won’t offend anyone. Am I always successful in this- maybe not, but you need to stop looking into and analyzing every word I say- we may not agree on a whole lot, but I AM in fact on your side. I would appreciate it if you stopped treating me like a typical Turkish denialist, because I can assure you I am not. If you could let your guard down a little bit we actually might be able to do some work.
RVDV,
We name the mood you are in as ” longing for home” …
You immigrated to the west for a kind of American dream but failed to make it true.
You have encountered many white racists.
You have understood that the worst people of Turkey is better than white racists.
You missed “Ezan” …
You missed Raki-Balik at Boshporus …
You missed belly dancer..
i can feel it…i was in same mood when i was out of Turkey. After got off the plain, i wanted to kiss the ground at Ataturk Airport…
Sorry, to tell you….but..things are not same as the time you left.. You and me are now enemy…thanks to PKK supported by imperialist west.
and it seems we cant be friend anymore….
Necati: I was a child when I left Turkey so it was not me that left for a dream. Yes, I miss Turkey- it is my home, in fact I was there just last week, I know exactly what’s going on in there. White racists?? I AM white, unless I tell people I am from Turkey they have no clue. Ezan? I’m an Alevi. Raki? I don’t drink. Even Erdogan and AK parti can differentiate between Kurds and PKK- even if it’s just for votes. We can’t be friends anymore? BIG loss, I don’t know how I’ll ever get over it.
Avery, The big Hero,
It is good you still can remember what you did 6 months ago.
yes, in the war field all soldiers must be ready to die.
But there is no declared war in my country..it is only some terrorist villains shoot my people in the darkness…
Your racist Fascist leadership has been waging undeclared war against Kurdish villages and civilians for 30 years. Your military and other Turk death squads have been killing Kurds and ethnically cleansing them in the darkness for 30 years.
Your government massacred 100,000 Kurds, Aveli, and converted Armenians at Dersim in 1937, 1938.
Just a week ago Turkish Air Force massacred 35 innocent Kurd civilians, about half of them children. Many Editorials @ TodaysZaman are questioning the Government version that it was just a mistake. Many believe it was done deliberately to teach Kurds a lesson.
Turks like you get upset when their victims fight back.
You prefer to slaughter them unarmed.
And later you will boast “was not 1million killed by Turks, it was 10milyon…so what ?”
When Turk garrisons leave Kurdistan, killing of TSK troops by PKK will stop.
Yo Necati the Tukish Pasha…you must be not only a denialist but a dellusional one…
No declared war in your country?? lol oh how hilliarious…
RVDV –
“What have Armenians ever done to me? Nothing.” True. But Kurds (if you’re one as you claim you are) did partake in large numbers in genocidal acts against the Armenians. To the credit of the Kurds and in contrast to the Turks, they found courage to apologize to the Armenians.
B
RVDV,
Avery is neither a spokesman for Armenians nor typical of any. Your ideas are welcome.
My family comes primarily from the District of Marash, where my great-great grandfather was a landowner and a civilian official of the Church. Over 500 years, our family had been diligent and frugal. All of our lands were lost, and all the men except my great grandfather were shot in the 1890’s by Gendarmes.
My grandmother came to America and started life over working in a factory in America with her mother.
She never complained, so I will not.
She was acutely aware of how the western powers betrayed the people of Armenia and Marash, by promising to protect them, and then failing to do so. Uppermost in her recollection was the senseless destruction of every Armenian peron and thing, a sense of loss so pervasive that as a child I wrongly assumed that every Armenian thing and person had been eliminated from the face of the earth. Most of us have a sense that Armenians are only a few generations away from extinction. The greatest stres on our survival as aq cultue is the Genocidal hatred of Turks, Turkey and Azerbaijan. When Turks are not killing us, they are pressuring our existence aws much as they can.
Being an Armenian today is like being a Jew in 1934 Germany. But I digress.
Armenians, like most Christians of this era wrote down their family trees going back many generations in their family bibles. She told me that Turks and Kurds burned Armenians alive in their Churches, and that all Bibles were lost. She could not tell me who her great grandparents were. Even into her 90’s she was bewildered and like a lost child, imploring me to explain to her this inexplicable cruelty.
Chechens complained the same way about Russians who destroyed them and their belongings for no reason in the 19th Century.
In the era before killings began, Armenians and Turks did get along better, but they were by no means equal. Armenian landowners were subjected to government approved raids by Kurds at harvest time. As Christians, Armenians had to pay the jizzya tax. Your Turkish lobby groups in the USA today defend these practices.
You should visit an Armenian Church. Meet the people, see their faces, hear their stories.
But what you must do is confront the Turkish lobby in this country. Nowhere is there a single organized Turkish voice that speaks against the Nazi images and rhetoric of groups such as the ATAA ot TCA. While there are such liberal voices in Turkey, there are none here. Because they are absent here, the American media thinks that these groups represent all Turks.
Will you let Ergun Kirlikovali speak for you?
JDA: It’s funny how Avery only replies to my comments when she sees an opportunity to twist my words into something that was clearly not the intention. Apparently her zeal to attack anyone not sharing her exact opinion overshadows the fact that I have said on several occasions that my government continues to commit a crime against humanity by denying the Armenian genocide.
Your right, the Turkish government continues to try and oppress Armenians. But I guess what doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger- which considering recent events in favor of genocide recognition, seems to be true. When my family first moved to the United States we first stayed with some Assyrian friends of my of parents, and I can remember them telling stories how their everything was taken from them in the genocide. I’ve heard the stories, and my own ancestors were killed in Dersim. Believe me, I DO understand.
“Avery is neither a spokesman for Armenians nor typical of any.”
neither are you, ‘jda’.
Avery,
I agree with you. The salient difference is that I don’t imply or pretend to be a spokesman.
‘jda’:
show me proof where I imply or pretend to be a spokesman.
JDA.. i don’t understand the hostility toward Avery or anyone here who tries to rebuttel these denialists scums… why such anger? and if I were you, i would be very proud to have someone like Avery amongts us… and i personally can say Avery is not pretending or acting to be the spokeperson.. to be honest with you.. iam glad he speaks out.. and with such force that everyone one of us she be proud…
RVDV,
An Alevi can not be a kurd. Alevis are Turkmen. I think you (your family) are kurdified . Remember what Kamer Genc said.
or, you are an ermeni originally whose ancesters converted to islam in order to stay in Anatolia by hiding their identity .
“The Alevi-Bektaşi are ethnically TURKISH or KURDISH, while the Alawi are ethnically Arab.”
Straight from wikipedia. It took me all of 17 seconds to discredit you. I think I broke my own record. Thank you for being so blissfully ignorant.
Most Alevis are ethnic and linguistic Turks, mainly of Turkmen descent from Central and Eastern Anatolia. Some 20% of Alevis are KURDS (though most Kurds are Sunnis), and some 25% of KURDS IN TURKEY ARE ALEVI (Kurmanji and Zaza speakers).” —David Zeidan.
I win.
I love it when these denialists scums get busted for their lies.. yet they speak sooooooooooooooooooooooo large and grand but they are so small…Necati even your countryman discredited you.. you must be sooo ashamed by now but then again i doubt you know what shame is…
“Your government massacred 100,000 Kurds, Aveli, and converted Armenians at Dersim in 1937, 1938.”
Avery,
i know you are an ex-KGB .i know your job is black propaganda . But it seems you did not study your lesson well.
Even for propaganda, claims must be reasonable.
Do you have evidence for what you say?
if not, again , you are a bad LIER.
http://www.pen-kurd.org/almani/haydar/Dersim-PresseerklC3A4rungEnglish.pdf
“According to the people of Dersim 70 thousand people were massacred.”
http://news.am/eng/news/83017.html
“Various sources claim that about 100,000 people were killed in the slaughters. Armenians who escaped from the 1915 Genocide and sheltered in Dersim villages, underwent double genocide in 1938.”
Naturally, I don’t believe a word of Official Turkey: anyone who claims AG did not happen – is a LIER.
And just a naturally, I take the higher estimates: again, because anything Official Turkey says is a LIE.
oh look.. disrespectful and disgusting denialist is calling one of us who has shut him down many times by providing SOLID proof a bad liar.. (of course misspelling the word too)..
Avery, thanks for the link re: Dersim genocide. Very interesting article showing that the culture of genocide was passed down from the Ottomans to the modern Turkish republic. Turkey must face its past.
To Hamasdegh,
1. Scholarhsip -solo- won´t do.How many people in the U.S. and Canada (N.America) do you think Armenian press,books ,magazines etc.,?
2. Benevolent , spiritual,sportive ,compatriotic clubs neither….
Above two is what we have on the Diaspora scene.
Let us not be inappreciative.they have done (en lo que cabe) good spanish phrase,meaning ,more or less whatever might fit in there…
At this 11th hour we need a real Mobilization,not above that hardly touch a few percent of the 6/7 million Diaspora,mainly and mostly (say half) formed from recent TWO waves of immigrants .
A. those who left their 2nd adopted countries in the Middle East and ex-soviet countries (which include the Balkans) beginning 1960´s.And then the
B. Second wave, from Armenia/Azerbaijan.
These constitute actually(my guesstimate may be wrong) more than the older Armenian Diaspora, that began leaving Western Armenia beginning in the 1890´s. Whatever.LATTER, LET US BE HONEST AND TRUTHFULL.
These will not leave the N.American ,S.American countries and/or France or Russia. All just mentioned are woven tightly into the local fabric,so t´say.
Hence ,we must rely only rely on their kind SUPPORT,when we show to them that we have re-organized the Diaspora(s) the 40/50 yr old one.
Then at htis juncture that we ALL NEED TO BE MOBILIZED,employ other methods.OTHER THAN WHAT you suggest.I ´m not against that ,but please consider what % of people you are going to gather around that!!!!
Mine is different it relies ON THE HUGE COLLECTIVITIES OF THE WORKING PROFESSIONALS,nowadasy very much advanced all over and their ECONOMIC MIGHT. Gahter thse people in ¨Professional Colleagues Associations¨wrodlwide in their own townships/consituencies,then through their 3-person delegates ,join up with the political parties and spiritual fathers leader(one from ea denomination) ,form Centreal counciuls in all community country ,then on to s Supreme Council of the Armenian Diaspora with 5 Departments. Please go to http://www.armeniannews.info and read the rest.
thank in advance.
G.P.
My above post has nothing to do with Hairenik´s above article. Thence,this one:-
The French response to above counter offensive did not DELAY ITSELF.
PRESDIENT Sarkozy of France, has just declared that he will try to introduce same Bill in ALL EUROPEAN COUNTRIES….
France,plus Germany have the capability to introduce that …
Erdogan’s references to colonial-era killings in Algeria prompted criticism from Algerian Prime Minister Ahmed Ouyahia.
He said on January 7 that “nobody has the right to make the blood of Algerians their business.”
Ouyahia noted that Turkey was a member of NATO during the independence war in Algeria and as such provided material support to France.
“We say to our [Turkish] friends: Stop making capital out of Algeria’s colonization,” AFP quoted him as saying.
Necati the sub-Genius:
Why don’t you go annoy your fellow cretins?
Nobody here cares what you think or how wretched your thought processes. You are truly the thing propaganda creates.
Necati –
Don’t you feel that by your comments you make yourself and the nation you belong to a laughingstock? Come on, show us you have some brains. You must have some.
You wrote: “you are an ermeni originally whose ancestors converted to islam in order to stay in Anatolia by hiding their identity.” Several deficiencies in one sentence. How is it possible with a representative of a nation that I bet considers itself “intellectually progressed” and “civilized”? First, why would Armenians (I guess ‘ermeni’ stand for Armenian?), an ancient people who adopted Christianity as an official religion in 301 AD convert to Islam? Is it not understood that some of them would only if they were forced to do so. And those who forced religious conversion were turker. Second, why would Armenians wish to stay in Anatolia (is it a new Turkish name for historically known Asia Minor?) under the Turks if they originated and lived in Asia Minor for millennia? Third, why would these indigenous inhabitants hide their identity. What and who would persecute them for their true identity?
You appear to be suffering from either or all the following complexes: a complex of guilt for the mass murder of millions of Christians of Asia Minor; an inferiority complex knowing that your ancestors, in contrast to the Assyrians, Greeks, and Armenians, were breeding sheep in the steppes of Central Asia; or just sheer Armenophobia without regard to any rationale that Armenian posters provide on regular basis. Pick one, Necati… Or all three.
I wonder why we engage in futile and useless arguments with one segment of the readership that seems more interested in taunting Armenians rather than exchanging views on which we can build a mutually open and trustful relationship. Perhaps I am wrong to attach any importance to such posted comments but I am an eternal optimist.
More specifically, I believe the article raises an important point. In our ongoing struggle to establish justice and human rights with regard to the Armenian Genocide the Turkish government is way ahead of us not only strategizing its future course of action, but taking steps to implement counter offensive measures ahead of the 100 anniversary of the Armenian Genocide. Expect low blows, threats, gimmicks, false promises of “regrets” , any deceptive measures that can delay and derail our quest for justice, settlement and compensation. And mind you there are gullible people among Armenians who are more willing to swallow the sugar coated pills others prepare for us for their own comfort.
In fact, we should not limit ourselves in this long term struggle just reacting to measures and initiatives that Turkey can come up with. Our strategy should be multi faceted, broad, aggressive , comprehensive and of leading edge character. We need to marshall the necessary professional talent, money,organization that a tough adversary such as Turkey would demand. Let us not fool ourselves that our current successes are enough and are harbingers for others to follow with this level of engagement . I salute those engaged in these efforts and I am thankful to day as an Armenian who has paid a heavy price for the murderous acts of a genocidal state. However, MORE, MORE and MORE effort before justice can be established.
RVDV,
It is impossible for a KURT to be an alevi. Alevi is a mix of islam and shamanism which was the religion of Turkmens before adopting islam. You can see signs of shamanism in your religious ritiuels.
Kurds are shafi’i no alevi … speaking kurdish doesn mean you are a kürt.
There are some places to know your ethnicity. Go to one of them and have them check your DNA. i am sure you are TÜRK OĞLU TÜRK. same as me.
Necati:
“The Alevis (usually considered adharents of a branch of Shia Islam) are another religious minority among the KURDS. They are mainly living in Tunceli, Erzincan, eastern Sivas….”
Straight from wikipedia- which should give you an idea as to how weak your argument is. I am a Kurdish Alevi, and I am from eastern Sivas, which, incidentally, is mentioned in the excerpt.
Berch,
i agree with you on that Turks were forced to convert to islam. But i am still shaman. i believe in Gök Tengri. i suggest you all convert to shamanism which is best. You know abrahamic religions brought us only blood…
“Grish jan.. mera ..lol shat lav asetsir..lol apres..”
how do you write this in Armenian letters ?
what’s the matter pal, can’t use the Google translate ?
can’t crack the secret code that Gayane uses ?
want to see what she wrote, so you can harass her some more ?
Here I’ll help buddy. In Armenian letters what she wrote is this:
Պայքար, Պայքար Մինչեվ Վերջ
Thank you Avery jan.. AMEN .. :)
Necati,
Being an imbecile is not enough to be entertaining. .
I am pleased to hear that shamanism is working for you. It was a religion without books or learning. Don’t let all your Gulen pals find out, or they’ll burn you aalive.
Oh now we are talking JDA..
JDA: don’t resort to insulting Necati. You are on the moral and intellectual high ground, keep it that way. Lowering yourself to his level will only make you look bad, because we all know what he is. I don’t know you, but I do know people like Necati- don’t sink as low as he is, please.
To Mardiros
Of course great Turkey will not sit put and pull all the Ottoman turkish tricks ,plus news ones out of their bag to neutralize our quest for JUSTICE and compensation. What else did you expect.
As to your multi-faceted efforts-permit me to say-it sounds like a dozen or more so desired and expressed phrases.they never stop.Especially if you read our own press,whether in Diaspora or in Homeland it is the same old style.Talk and words….
When someone actually SETS FORTH a PLAN, a new strategy -like you stae- all become silent….
So let´s see ¨tsuge wourdeghen ´HODI????
MEANING, OUR OTTOMAN INHERITED HARD HEADEDNESS AS TO NON COOPERATIVESNESS…individualism is there as yet to grasp and unaimously accept one Novelty PLAN.All like to repat like parrots and I quote¨
we should make our efforts to do this that…..¨Oh for God´s sake…
Turks must be having time of their life reading our press,with such nonesense!!!
the other day a new edition with a man writing ,nay filling up the half paper with his prompting …we must make all efforts ,but that ina thousand words….NO PLAN NO NOTHING N A D A !!!!
i´M GETTING TIRED OF NOT HEARING FROM ONE ,yes just one of those here that what I modestly suggst is or may be of future USE…
This I have put in various articles and will invite all of those really interested in ACTION to read an d them comment…Did i say comment? i doubt it …most keep silence…
WE SIMPLY CANNO ACHIEVE MJUCH IF WE DO NOT GET RID OF TWO M A J O R ARMENIAN TRAITS WITHIN OUR CHARACTER. JEALOUSNESS AND BEING NON-COOPERATIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Enter site denominated http://www.armeniannews.info please and then????let us see at the very least NEGATIVE COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dear Gaytzag:
Who says that Armenians have not changed. Look at our new generation and you will realize they think differently ,speak differently and act differently. And this is not only in USA but wherever Armenians live in great number. The comments expressed here are part of an effort to move past what you are describing. And this process started in/around 1965 and is constantly developing. No one can guarantee that masses will sit up, listen and follow but ideas travel and have been travelling. It is unfortunate that our traditional leadership ,whether lay or clerical, think small, act small and in almost all cases impede the development of the new potential that can take us in newer directions. But I assure you things have changed in the diaspora, a new leadership has emerged, and things are happening. You may not be aware of such developments but they are there .
JDA,
Good. Being so much rude shows your real face . Or you are too much angry because you lost the leadership against Avery ?
Turkey is a secular country unlike Armenia. I can believe in anything . so, i chose Shamanism… it is on the rise among us Turks.
Avery,
You are getting old.. you already forgot your mother tounge.
what Gayane wrote is NOT Պայքար, Պայքար Մինչեվ Վերջ —>Payk’ar, Payk’ar Minch’yev Verj
i suggest you to consume foods rich of Omega3 , B2 . especially fish cought by Turkish fishers.
Proud Turk-oglu Necati, remember the time you trapped yourself in the Google translate trick I setup for you ?
You really don’t get what I did, do you ?
This is where Necati falls into the intelligencia of Avery .. the man who always get these scums on their tails.. and Necati fell right into it..lol love love love..:)
Necati you are too slow buddy.. and hence why your posts on these pages are nothing but nonsense…
Avery jan.. he does not have the level of intelligence to know what just happened…:) you did great my friend.. bravo.. always admire your drive and your wits.. you ARE my hero.. :)
It seems somebody has forgotten his origins of being Hamshin from Riza.Everybody here & in Turkey know very well who the Hamshins are.
As appreciate the editorial for its analytic value. Yet I don’t understand why did you have to use that lage turkish flag!!!! It is very insulting to me, and painfully, I can read a lot into that.
Dear Mardiros,
Your above post-coinciding with my new article to be posted at http://www.aremaniannews.info shortly-dos give me stamina and hope to carry on with my ¨suggestions¨. Alas,not many of my age or even the middle aged are interested in CHANGE,LIKE YOU WRITE .THEY STICK TO WHATEVER IS THERE ,AS an example the more than 160 years old ¨Sahmanatrutyun¨drawn up in conmstantinople by our Celrgy and Amiras (under harsh Ottoman rule).
Said constitution has nothing in common with the STATUTE that i project and it may only serve the old timers and those very conservative elements of our ¨multitutdes¨,mark my word-this last one-since that Sahmanatrutyun is an isntrument -and was-to rule over ,then peasantry in the Provinces of the ottoman Empire and later,VERY UNFORTUNATELY HAS BEEN ADAPTED AND IS STILL IN USE NOW!!!!!
No, I´m not that simple as to think my Projected NEW Statute will immediately take over theirs…rather it will creep up alongside for the NEW Generation of which i´m proud.Just please wait and by next week my other article will appear at above site and then yet another .
best
http://www.sofiaecho.com/2012/01/11/1742599_bulgarias-parliament-turns-down-resolution-on-armenian-genocide
The Bulgarian government has, again, turned down the Armenian genocide resolution bill. This was their reasoning:
“It was not the function of Parliament to decide historical truth, senior MRF MP Lyutvi Mestan said. The draft resolution was intended to force a mandatory way of thinking, he said.”
I am very very dissapointed in Bulgarian Parliament.. how can they turn down such act when they WERE also victims of the Genocide.. i wonder what Turkey is threatening Bulgaria with…??
I want to thank the Bulgarian Group who brought forth this action… May God protect you..
Gayane, don’t feel too bad.
There are about 700,000 ethnic Turks in Bulgaria. (about 10% of population)
Very few Armenians. Bulgaria cannot afford the headache with their neighbor Turkey at this time.
Right now Bulgaria is weak. Wait till they join EU. Also, they may be setting up a power play against Turkey, when they have all their pieces in place.
The apology for the mistreatment of Turks is smart. they may even pay some token compensation. For a reason.
Bulgaria has an outstanding claim against Turkey for US$20 Billion for losses they suffered around WW1 at the hands of Turks.
The fact that Bulgarian nationalists were able to bring AG discussion to their Parliament with almost no Armenian presence in Bulgaria shows that Turkey has much to worry about.
Have faith sister. Not everything is what it seems on the surface.
Makes sense Avery jan.. thank you for the feedback.
faith I will always have.. we have to….:)
Avery: “Right now Bulgaria is weak. Wait till they join EU”
Not sure if you were aware, but Bulgaria joined the EU in 2007.
As for WW1. I do believe Bulgaria joined the Central Powers in 1915. The same Central Powers that included the Ottoman Empire.
I stand corrected RVDV.
Bulgaria did indeed join EU in 2007.
Then their loss of nerve needs more study by me.
There may be other factors that I am not familiar with at this time.
“As for WW1. I do believe Bulgaria joined the Central Powers in 1915. The same Central Powers that included the Ottoman Empire.”
RVDV: read this from your own TodaysZaman:
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-197686-102-davutoglu-warns-bulgaria-over-compensation-demands.html
“putting a price of $20 billion (€14 billion) on the settlement.”
(I wrote “around WW1”: I was not sure of the exact date)
Avery: Ahh yes, I missed the “around” part. Sorry about that- jumped to conclusions.
I’m not very informed on Turkey-Bulgaria history so it I’m going to take your word on it. The last decade of Ottoman history did a whole lot of damage, I’m sure everyone (Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Assyrians, Bulgarians) has a legitimate claim for compensation for the wrongs done to them. I believe it may one of the reasons for continued denial of the Armenian genocide. If compensation is paid to Armenians, other minorities will rightfully seek compensation for their ancestors. I think the Erdogan administration has shown that honor, dignity, and justice is not very high on their priority list. They may believe in Allah, but they worship money.
Considerable portion of Bulgaria’s population are ethnic Turks. We understand. Many Bulgarians despise Turks because, like Armenians and others, they suffered immensely under the Ottoman yoke. With France and, possibly, the EU, enacting criminalization into law Bulgaria and others will be a part of chain reaction. Matter of time…
Bulgarians very recently apologized for their treatment of Turks during the communist regime. Funny, all Armenians want is essentially the same thing. I have a lot more respect for Bulgaria now- what they did was an honorable move. We could learn a thing or two from our neighbors.
Oh that is funny because Turks have nt apologized to Bulgarians.. hmmmmm what kind of twisted game is this that Turkey is doing with Bulgaria?? I know for a fact Bulgarians can’t stand Turks living in Bulgaria.. it is not easy to live side by side with those who remind them of their ancestors’ sad and brutal faith… so i wonder why Bulgaria so sooo nice to Turkey …but yet TUrkey is such a bully toward Bulgaria
RDVD,
In today’s world of politics, unfortunately Armenian Genocide become a political soccer ball, especially for small nations where their economy and wealth is more important than moral values…Bulgars do not care for Turks, they love to see the flow of Lira in Sofia much faster rate, but in reality Bulgarians like Romanians know how those “terrible Turks” slaughter their Christian nations during Ottomans time…I am sure they are much happier than Armenians, after all they thrown Turks out of their land!!
Dear all,
Please dont consider i am so rude not to reply you. nor do i not have an answer.
But f***ing AW editors always censor me no matter how polite i write.
AW is not a newspaper. it is a fascist propaganda site.
In that case don’t read it…
LOL.. oh lookie here.. the genocidal, disgusting scum is putting down our newspaper.. have you checked yourself in the mirror Necati?? please do then come here and complain.. because like your country.. whiners, complainers and liars PLUS absolutely rude and disrespectful people are not welcome here.. ESPECIALLY here…but yet we allow you to write your twisted ugly scum comments don’t we??
SO man up and move forward..
the Gentleman needs serious help from a dedicated group of specialists.
A short trip to the memory lane:
{necati August 20, 2011
editor: i know you think i am a fascist, racist .
you know that i was full of humanity until i met you Gaymenians in this f______ AW?} (F word spelled out fully)
{necati August 20, 2011
and i am sorry for my bad words about editors of AW.
Please accept my apologies.}
http://armenianweekly.com/2011/08/19/new-armenian-church-in-iraqi-kurdistan/#comments
ohhh Avery jan.. you are being too generous here.. you should have posted everything this innocent man who is complaining have said and wrote….it seems like he is suffering from major memory loss don’t you think Avery jan??.
but the way Necati and all the denialists.. here is the nth times.. just because your posts don’t come through it does not mean there is a conspirancy going on against you.. ALL posters have experienced such an event.. get over it and if you are smart enough, you can find a way to go around this type of system issues.. Necati i don’t know about you..though..
I wonder if the Turks have ever apologized for the massacres of tens of thousands of Bulgarian peasants in 1876? Or for Turks apology is below their national dignity? What kind of people are they?
And no, all Armenians want is not essentially the same thing. Armenians and the civilized world demand an apology from Turks for genocide.
Berch: Want, demand, deserve, words are just words. Don’t look into it so much- I hope you know what I meant. I’m not making veiled remarks, you are right though, DEMAND would have been a better choice of words.
Just go back to 2003 ;
I wonder if Bulgarians apologized for massacres and assimilations they have done;
Check site ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Bulgaria
Official Recognition of Ethnic Cleansing
The Bulgarian Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights and Religious Freedom approved in February 2010 a declaration, condemning the Communist regime’s attempt to forcefully assimilate the country’s ethnic Turkish population. The Committee declared the forceful expulsion of 360 000 Turks in 1989 as a form of ethnic cleansing. The committee requested the Bulgarian judiciary and the Chief Prosecutor to renew the case against the architects of the Revival Process.[113][114]
Sorry , but be careful and truthful when you write about any nation, community , because there mothers, children , fathers behind these nations, not only politics but truthful politics .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Bulgaria
To neurotic Necati – Then why won’t you leave this site?
P.S. For fascist propaganda please visit Hurriyet and Today’s Zaman.
TWO MAJOR FASCIST PROPAGANDA MACHINES right there Berch jan.. both Turkish on-line publications.. hands down…
Well done AW. By publishing the absurdities of this lunatic you are making him contradict himself.
Correction:
My word “f***** AW editors” is not said to Ladies.
I used that word for “MEN” , if any…
Thank you for the clarification. That makes it ALL better.
Man, you seriously need help.
What is this: you are throwing a “man” challenge to Armenian men ?
Are you that far gone ?
You even call an ethic Turk woman – Ms. Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi – who is married to an Armenian man an ‘Armenian agent’.
{necati , 12 January 2012 , 15:20 Mine hanım, You can NOT be a Turkish woman.. i think you are an armenian agent…if you were really a Turk, …..}(redacted, posted @ TodaysZaman)
You call a respected ethnic Turk columnist of TodaysZaman – Mr. Orhan Kemal CENGİZ – an Armenian agent.
Orhan Pamuk is Orhan Pamukyan.
Even TodaysZaman is suspect: they always censor your comments, but allow Armenian ‘propaganda’ (like mine): right ?
Read and absorb these words of wisdom of a Turk woman (Ms. Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi):
{“…I want to respect the memory of my loving Turkish parents and grandparents, they thaught us to LOVE everyone, and so I cannot join your chorus of hatred. Did your mother Ever teach you to hurl slurs to others, be they Turkish or Armenian? Where do you get that poisonous and self hurting attitude? I’m sure you have a beautiful and loving mother, I doubt your mother hates Armenians, let alone Greeks or Kurds. My point is: If you have an issue, write in a sensible and civilized manner, that way you bring “love and eternal honor” for our Turkish people…”} (addressed to Necati, redacted post @ TodaysZaman Jan 12, 2012 by Ms. Bagrationi)
Necati,
I gave you advise to get out of that bloody Turkish raki, melon, and cheese, you are killing yourself to death…I wonder if you are always high or doped with Turkish opium…get out of that terrible habits and seek for medical help, after all you may think brighter and less stressful life, try to be like an ordinary civilized Turk, who comment regularly, here in AW..
Grish I am with you…this poor guy …NG
I think he has mixed origin… he is lost
He needs help and urgently…
He is definitely brain washed…
He needs very mature Turkish psychiatrist
To treat him to recover from something
That gave him sever shock in his life…
I really petty him…
What he needs is many months of treatment…
Worse than any disease… because he is smashing
His brain cells by a strong hummer called HATE …!
Sylva
Well,
On the other hand,Sylva-MD,
Necati is so democratic and open and is giving his opinions, sharing them with us. And ,you are personalizing his opinions and judgeing him with “Hate” and with insulting.
This site is democratic, politic and open.
What actually needs to be proven is to the historians and international organizations.
I am not judgeing any side and giving them chance to prove the things they speak.
Again, both sides should question their, so told, history.
What do you think, should they question their history or not ?
Should we question our history or not ?
Should we believe blindly ?
Should we all go back to the dark ages of Europe ?
We all do respect TESTER? what is that mean anyway?
Historians and international organizations already proved what happened and that it was GENOCIDE.. i am not sure if you even read anything about what it is truthful and what is genocidal outrage like necati’s outrage.. if you do not see how ridiculeous and absolutely hateful Necati’s posts are then I am sorry.. you must be either blind or very oblivious of the history…
there is plenty to read on this thread alone.. you will have all your proof Tester…
thanks… and Sylva is RIGHT ON THE DOT.. NEcati is not being open and sharing his opinions.. he is stating facts on how physcopath he is.. he is the His God’s given gift to humanity but Christians are not worth to address him.. his moon is in the sky.. that is what he said.. he said many other things..all you have to do is read the posts…
have a nice day…
Well gayane,
If you are talking about the BB as a proof then I would suggest you read the writers comment about the “war time stories” .
Thanks for the reading advice, I am not a historian , but since you advised,
Arnold Toynbee confessed in a later work, The Western Question in Greece and Turkey (1922, p. 50), that the “Blue Book” was a piece of war propaganda.
http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/WesternQuestion.pdf
This is an excerpt from the pdf , please verify if It was wrong, as I said I am not a historian and if I have a mistake let me know I’ll apologize deeply.
….
The Turks were at war with them; offers previously made to Greece at
Turkey’s expense had been declined and withdrawn; the Armenians had got
themselves massacred by the Turks for helping the Allies without getting the
Allies committed in return to doing anything for them. …
I am just proposing to be open. If you take it , bravo.
Again, none of us should accept everything we have been told, we should question.
Right ?
To those who have kept saying Turkey is falling apart blah, blah (e.g, Avery, Gayane) while I kept saying Turkey is ascendent, here is an invitation to quit wishful-thinking and read a New York Times article on the reality:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/opinion/sunday/the-empires-strike-back.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
And please don’t accuse THE leading newspaper in the US and even the world of being bought by Turks and Azeris.
Kerim Bey.. here is a reality check.. ANY NEWSPAPER in US can be bought if it has the highest bidder or money giver.. are you that ignorant or blinded by your manipulative government…
and i still believe Turkey will come down to her knees sooner or later…
Hey Kerim Bey.. here is one sentence out of the whole “Turkish” leaned article that tells you the whole truth…
“And if Turkey plays its cards right, it could match France’s influence or even become the dominant power in the region”.
Turkey has not played her cards so far and she will never play her cards right… on top of all that .. Turkey WILL NEVER become the dominant power in the region if Erdogan and Davotoglu throw a tantrum everytime a country utters Genocide, or murder innocent people in daylight like Hrant Dink, or imprison journalists and free thinkers of justice like many Kurdish intellectuals.. you are in your messed up dream Kerim.. WAKE UP.. your country will never be civilized to join the democratic and powerful countries…
Not any time soon and if it goes the way it does, never…
AzeriTurk Turk-oglu Kerim-bey:
glad you recognize my and Gayane’s contributions to bringing to light the decrepit state of falling apart Turkey blah, blah, blah.
I will not accuse a (not THE) leading newspaper in the US of being bought by Turks or Azeris.
However, observe please:
{Soner Cagaptay Director, Turkish Research Program}.
That is the author of the article. Check this out: {A historian by training, Dr. Cagaptay wrote his doctoral dissertation at Yale University (2003) on Turkish nationalism. }
What does “Turkish nationalism” mean to you, Kerim-bey ? Does it mean unbiased ? or Pro-Turkish perhaps ?
If you still don’t get it: the article in a US newspaper was written by a wishful-thinking Turk-American, who is a Turk Nationalist, imagining something about Turkey and France that is as realistic as FM Davutoglu’s “No Problems” policy.
OK now that we have dispensed with your alleged THE, allow me to present for the viewing audience just one example in the series of “falling apart Turkey blah, blah, blah”.
Read this paragraph carefully Kerim-bey:
{paint a grim picture of the situation for children in Turkey living beneath the breadline. One in every four children in Turkey lives in poverty and despite the fact that Turkey has the 16th largest economy in the world, the country ranks bottom amongst the 34 member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).}
Did you catch the one that says “one in every four children in Turkey lives in poverty”
Did you catch the one that says “the country ranks bottom…..” as in BOTTOM. As in ROCK BOTTOM.
The excerpts are from an article in a leading Turkish newspaper TodaysZaman. Date January 15, 2012. Look it up. (it was written by a Turk)
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-268594-biting-back-against-child–poverty-begins-in-school-cafeterias.html
Over to you, Kerim-bey,.
What say you now about “falling apart Turkey blah, blah, blah”.?
Make sure you come back now and say hello to me and Gayne, you hear ? (just practicing my Southern).
Avery jan ..superb job…
Case closed..
Next…..
I was browsing for something on Amazon when I came across this title. Do the people working on reparations issues know about this research? I hope that the Editors at Armenian Weekly will pass this on
http://www.amazon.com/Confiscation-Destruction-Seizure-Armenian-Property/dp/1441135782/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1326745793&sr=8-20
Confiscation and Destruction: The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property
Jerry, I sincerely hope you do get the money you want from the Turks. Why do I hope so? Because I am intellectually curious to see what the world would turn into if the descendant of all the atrocities from 100s of years ago cannot get over the past and SUCCESSFULLY go after modern countries? What an interesting mess the world would be? Tibetians suing China. Azeri’s suing Iran, Russia, etc. Indian Americans suing Washington. Indians in India going after the English? No? Why? What makes your tragedy of 100 years ago any more special than others?
Kerim,
In the past, I have brought a similar point in the past regarding bringing the Armenian genocide to court under the UN convention, even though the AG predates the signing of the convention. Major powers have their own dirty and bloody histories.
But what you’re pointing out is not a lack of moral justification for reparations but the realpolitik where major powers could intervene to stop a precedent from being set. A precedent which in turn could bite them.
“What makes your tragedy of 100 years ago any more special than others?”
I don’t like playing such games but there is one aspect that that is specially ugly. Turkey attempted to deliberately bury, hide and erase 1915, as well as Armenian history itself. They used every influence they had to get their allies to hush up and forget, and also suppressed it domestically. And this was done before WWII.
Recently, there was a lawsuit where a Native American group sued the US government and won. I believe they were suing for money owed from use of natural resources on their land. Unfortunately, I can’t remember much about it. This was within the past year or two and the US government fought against it in the courts.
Sylvia,
You have at least one Arab relative , dont you?
Sylvia must be hailing from Beirut or Aleppo. I heard most Armenian diasporans in that area of the region support that murderous thug Bashar Al-Assad. Same with Alevis (which that murderous thug Assad is an Alevi himself).
And who do YOU support, S.Y.? Al-Qaeda? Or the murderous thug Taleat? What is your problem with Alevis?
SY: Don’t know the difference between an Alawi and an Alevi do we?
Necati.. disgusting notorious denialist
you have the devil as your relative don’t you?
Avery, a lot of what you say is true. Yes, Turkey is not a perfect country and it has a lot of problems. But … you would have failed a reading comrehension test in which my post was the test paragraph and the following was the question:
“What is the meaniing of the original paragaraph?”
A) Turkey is a perfect country
B) Turkey’s economy has no problems.
C) Turkey is ascendant economically and politically
D) Turkey has no racism problems
E) Turks are better than Armenians.
Answer: (C).
Well if it is true Kerim Bey, then i would suggest you keep yourself within brackets of what you know for sure and not gloat on something you know deep down is not true..
The end..
Gayane
Kerim,
“Jerry, I sincerely hope you do get the money you want from the Turks. Why do I hope so? Because I am intellectually curious to see what the world would turn into if the descendant of all the atrocities from 100s of years ago cannot get over the past and SUCCESSFULLY go after modern countries? What an interesting mess the world would be? Tibetians suing China. Azeri’s suing Iran, Russia, etc. Indian Americans suing Washington. Indians in India going after the English? No? Why? What makes your tragedy of 100 years ago any more special than others?”
The world did not become ” an interesting mess” after Jews got compensation from Germans for subjecting them to genocide, did it?
In the meanwhile, as a nation, just pretend it is OK to live in the houses that your ancestors got through murder or use the revenuers from the lands that belonged to Armenians. After all, that is all that so many of you are good about.
I can very well question your point (C) & of course the devil is in the details:
-Official unemployment 11,5%.
-Unofficial unemployment 30%.
-Official inflation 12%.
-Unofficial inflation 20-25%.
-Current account deficit is 10% of its GDP which is financed by central bank reserves sales.
-A property market bubble which in the West under similar circumstances burst the bubble.
I can go on & on.Read this article from the FT of August the 3rd:Turkey: trade figures mask deeper problems.
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2012/08/03/turkey-trade-figures-mask-deeper-problems/#axzz22fGKqyBy
more than one true… C,D,E
Gayane,
Unless Necati, who is in his dream world to become an Altai warrior, kerim Agha is going to graduate from his first year of university. At least he knows multiple questions in today’s educational system!!
Kerim Agha forgot to add most important question, I don’t believe he will get high grade mark from his professor, unless his university located in Turkey, and protected by penal code 301!!
(f) Turkey will reject the truth of Armenian Genocide at any cost!!
Shat lav asetsir Grish jan… hamamit em qo het…:)
As an armenian of the fourth generation, i don’t understand why are you talking about the century ? does it means that after 2015, everything will be over, it means that we have lost ?
I disagree this fact, and as an armenian of France, the struggle is just beginning, the century mustn’t stop us…. we still have lots of goals and we are going to achieve it. I don’t even know how many years we need ! it is just the beginning dear brothers and sisters….
Turkey is trying to change its tactics, after protocols, it wants to attacks directly the diaspora, but more than a diaspora, we are citizen of different countries, we are french, canadians, americans, english, spanish.
In my country, i just feel better because i know that no one will be permit to insult my familly, my grandparents, and of course me !
Together we will win, 97 years, is just a number…. everything is just beginning
AMEN TO THAT KARINE JAN.. AMEN TO THAT..
Well said Karine:
2015 is just a number. Round numbers, such as 100 years and such, have significance for humans. But like you said, it is just a number. 2015 will come an go. We continue: until Ararat returns to her people. .
2015 is the 100th anniversary of the Battle of Gallipoli. You can be sure it will be remembered and celebrated by Turks and others properly. Grandpa fought there while his own hometown in the East was being raveged by Armenian insurgents. Yes, there will be some remembering.
Oh,same old Turkish denial tactics.In another argument,this man’s grandparents were from the Greek islands & suddenly now they are from the Armenian highlands.Changes color according to the subject as long as it is anti Armenian.
Your ancestors’ hometown is about 3,000 kilometers East of the Armenian Highlands.
Go look up what your FM Davutoglu said when he was visiting Uygurs of China in 2010.
‘Insurgents’ ?
The original insurgents were your Seljuk Turk ancestors who invaded the homeland of my ancestors. It is no insurgency to fight invaders of one’ own homeland. It is one’s sacred and honorable duty.
There were no Turkic tribes in Asia Minor prior to about 1000 A.D.
None.
Armenians did not travel 3,000 kilometers to Central and East Asia and invade the original homeland of Turkic tribes.
Murat has been and wil always be one of denialists from the peanut gallery that includes Kerim, Robert the Turks, Necati, etc… so anything he comes up at the spur of a moment is what he will blurt it out.. we are all used to his nonsense…
It is absolutely hillarious how these people who have no shred of intelligence in their brains come here and pretend they understand history… it is absolutely embarassing for them and they don’t even realize it…
Avery I will have to disagree with your definition of “insurgency”. What the Seljuks did was an invasion with imperial ambitions. An insurgency is a home-grown phenomenon and not something that comes in from the outside.
uummm, yeah: I am sure I wouldn’t know what an ‘insurgent’ is.