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Hamparian: Confronting a Pre-Genocidal Turkey

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It’s sometimes said that the obstruction of truth and justice for the Armenian Genocide is the result of actions by the Turkish state, not a reflection of the values of Turkish society.

In modern Turkey, Hrant Dink's killer is treated like a hero, and those guilty of his assassination are let free.

On the surface, this explanation might have some superficial appeal.

But upon any meaningful examination, this formulation falls apart. It dramatically oversimplifies the complex reality on the ground in Turkey, at so many levels, and ignores the deep historical and societal roots of anti-Armenian racism and violence in modern Turkish culture.

An imperfect (but perhaps useful) analogy may help shed some light on this issue: America’s brutal treatment of African Americans and Native Americans was not simply the function of governmental policy driven from above, but rather a reflection and a direct result, sadly, of very toxic and hateful cultural attitudes on race. Attitudes that created the very basis for the horrors of slavery and the genocidal massacres and ethnic-cleansing of American Indian tribes from their ancient homelands. Reading our Declaration of Independence (and its reference to “merciless Indian Savages”) or our Constitution (and its inhuman description of African Americans as three-fifths of a human being) just scratches the surface of the untold terror visited upon these peoples.

Add to this intolerance the vast American wealth drawn from centuries of slave labor and the massive theft of native lands—a parallel to the foundation of the modern Turkish economy, built upon the wealth and properties of literally hundreds of thousands of Armenian families and businesses stolen during the Armenian Genocide era—and you compound racial discrimination with deeply rooted and highly influential economic interests. A powerful combination. Hard, but not impossible, to challenge.

To our credit, as Americans—after decades of denial, demonstrations and, eventually, dialogue—we are today openly struggling with these deeply intense issues that are so closely tied to our very foundation, growth, and future as a nation. In Turkey, it is still illegal to talk about them.

Imagine Birmingham or Montgomery, Ala., at the height of Jim Crow.

Imagine a time in American history, thankfully behind us now, when segregationists openly celebrated Klan lynchings, and school children were raised to revel in old-school Westerns that demonized American Indians and glorified their destruction.

Well, sadly, that is where Turkey stands today.

In modern Turkey, Hrant Dink’s killer is treated like a hero, and those guilty of his assassination are let free. Armenians are regularly threatened with renewed deportations, the remaining Christian heritage of Anatolia is being systematically erased, and the country’s most popular films and books are about scapegoating and striking down treasonous minorities.

There are, of course, Turks who line up on the side of the angels. Unfortunately, however, U.S. policy toward Ankara has long been to play to the lowest common denominator, backing demagogues who appeal to their population’s basest instincts, at the expense of the small but growing number of brave souls who are struggling and sacrificing for the simple freedom to speak and act in pursuit of their country’s highest aspirations.

Turkey today is not a post-genocidal state, but a pre-genocidal society, angrily lashing out at its imagined enemies and, it would seem, seeking out its next target. The remaining Armenians on the soil of present-day Turkey – reminders of the unfinished work of Turkey’s last genocide – are high on this list, as, of course, are the Kurds, the most likely victim of its next.

The bottom line is that what is needed is not simply a change in Turkey’s policies, but rather a profound, long-term movement driven by both international and domestic pressure to rehabilitate Turkey into a modern, tolerant, and pluralist society that—as proof of its reform—willingly forfeits the fruits of its genocidal crimes.

Any less would be a disservice to Turkey’s victims, to Turkey’s neighbors, and to Turkey’s own citizens.

58 Comments on Hamparian: Confronting a Pre-Genocidal Turkey

  1. I believe as Armenians we need to ignore trying to “change Turks” but rather create the most powerful united Armenia and diaspora possible..Only in that way will we be able to facilitate the change from the outside in..

    • This is exactly what I think also. Changing turks is wishful thinking. Truth seeking groups from both sides coming together and communicating and so on will always be a dream. For a very simple reason, as I’ve said on another site, the tide has changed and Islam is on the rise in Arabic and non-Arabic countries and Turkey is no exception to the rule. Elected people everywhere are a reflection of the people at the grassroots. Do we really think religious rise will mean increase in tolerance and understanding of minorities ? I don’t think so. We have to get financially stronger really quick. We have to get militarily powerful. Get united and get rid of our people who are on the take, and wish only the wholsale of Armenia’s wealth. Our challenge is to confront a “de facto” military occupation of our “de jure” lands.

  2. Article by Mr. Sassounian.
    Article by Mr. Akcam.

    And now one by Mr. Hamparian.
    “{Turkey today is not a post-genocidal state, but a pre-genocidal society, angrily lashing out at its imagined enemies and, it would seem, seeking out its next target”}

    Have Armenians who criticize those of us who are rough on the Denialists visiting @AW read any of the 3 ? All 3?
    Have you absorbed the message ?
    Do you understand what we are facing ?

    You still want to treat Denialists that ply their denialist Turcophile disinformation and propaganda on our Armenian site here with kid gloves ?
    You still want to spend your valuable time lecturing us instead of resolutely, even harshly, confronting the Denialists ?

    Or you want to give unchallenged platform to Denialists “.. to express themselves, hear their opinions and reevaluate if necessary ” ?

    “Lead, follow, or get out of the way.” — Thomas Paine

  3. USA:
    A Black man with the unusual name of Barak Hussein Obama, and whose father was born in Kenya, is elected President of the USA by wide margin.
    Note that Black Americans are only about 10% of the US electorate.
    TURKEY:
    President Gul is “accused” – that is correct “accused” – of having an Armenian mother by a Turk politician. Same politician demands that Gul undergo DNA tests to prove his mother is not Armenian (!). Gul sues a web site that repeated the story that he has an Armenian mother for defamation – and wins.

    USA:
    There are very harsh Federal laws protecting Native American sacred sites. People have been sentenced to long jail terms for damaging those sites.
    TURKEY:
    An Armenian place of worship is destroyed by the City officials of Malatya. That is correct, destroyed by the order of Turkish Government officials.
    Oh yeah, apparently “there was a miscommunication”.
    The estimated 2,300 Armenian churches prior to 1915 have been reduced to about 50 today – also because of miscommunication.

    • You have said it yourself, freedom of speech is not freedom to lie. If false news about Mr. Gul is being spread then he has the right to sue for defamation. As you know, being called an Armenian is considered an insult by some in Turkey, and that person who accused him meant it in a derogatory way.

    • Yes RVDV, the accusation to Gul was intended to be derogatory, but Gul exposed his own archaic prejudice by responding as if he had been grievously insulted.
      This from the leader of a country trying to be accepted into the EU and to convince everyone that the New Turkey is democratic and pluralistic. He had a choice. He could have simply objected and shown that there is nothing insulting about having Armenian lineage and treated it as the ridiculous non-issue that it is. However, what he showed us is that Hamparian is right: Turkey has a long way to go in confronting its deeply rooted anti-Armenianism. Let’s not whitewash it.

    • RVDV:

      What I have said is Denial of Armenian Genocide shall not be covered under the rubric of ‘freedom of speech’. Not personal insults or other piddly stuff.

      The very fact that being called an ‘Armenian’ is an insult in Turkey today confirms Mr. Hamparian’s article 100%. There is not much you can do with the ordinary people. We still have lots of people in USA who call President Obama the N-word.

      But a Turk leader, the President of all people, who wants reconciliation with Armenians could have said this:
      “No, my mother is not Armenian. But if she was, I would be proud. Armenians are part of our history.” ….something like that.
      Leaders of Turkey, in the year 2010, are acting as if having an Armenian mother is equivalent to having a non-human, simian, mother.

      And your post above, my friend, is why I am not sure where you stand.
      You write a letter to the editors of TZ complaining about something that has nothing to do with Armenians, and present it as if it is.
      You post @TZ, but defend your Alevi faith: you always should, good for you for standing up for your own; but how did that help counter AG denial or fight Anti-Armenianism @TZ ?

      If you were in my place, what would you think ?

    • Ok, I agree with you two that as the President he should not have sued, it makes him look bad and probably shows his true feelings, and voids his original comment on the issue which I found surprisingly level headed:
      “I respect the ethnic background, different beliefs and family ties of all my citizens and see this as a reality and also the wealth of our country with its imperial history. I also would like to emphasize that all my citizens are equal to one another regardless of any differences. No one has any superiority whatsoever over another one. Everybody has the equal and same rights under the guarantee of our Constitution.”

      On a number of issues I’m still not sure where I stand so I get why you may view some of my comments with suspicion and even anger. I get it, I really do.

      And Avery: Well you see on that article you saw I posted two comments, one defending my people, one defending yours. Only one got published, which is why I don’t like posting there.

    • {“And Avery: Well you see on that article you saw I posted two comments, one defending my people, one defending yours. Only one got published, which is why I don’t like posting there.”}

      fair enough RVDV: I believe you.

      TZ has strange posting policies. In general, they don’t like many posts from the same individual in a row. But there is a character there posting under name GeneralSherman (!) who has multiple comments under almost every article.
      Armenians ‘Jack Kalpakian’ and ‘Ararat’ also get published fairly often.
      Not all, but most of my posts get published as well
      TZ is a private enterprise: it’s their site, and their rules. Whatever get published in a bonus..

    • Avery: I honestly don’t get TZ. Are publish articles that make you think “oh they’re not denialists..” And then in the same article they’ll say so-called Armenian genocide. Regarding Turkish posters on there, I don’t know if this is the same with Armenians, but here is my observation. When we live outside Turkey, we become the most Turkish people there ever was and ever will be. Turkish people become the sworn protectors of the state- via internet.. I’m not saying people in Turkey are not like what you see on here, TZ, or Hurriyet, but the most nationalist people I have ever met have been from the Turkish diaspora.

  4. avatar SecularTurkishAMERICAN // February 9, 2012 at 3:15 pm // Reply

    Our conscience, our business. I truly do feel sympathy towards what happened to Armenian’s, however, the writer is speaking of Turks “with angels” however he forgets there are plenty of Armenians who are not “with angels” themselves. Murders who seek nothing but barbaric revenge, yet I’m sure a large percentage of Armenians in some way support or sympathize with them.

    Bottom line, we Turks have a very existential view on defending Turkey. And I myself am not proud of the actions of the few Turks, but am very afraid of the potential actions of the few militant Armenians.

    If Armenians want peace they need to learn to sympathize with us Turks and they need to stop conspiring with the rest of the world against Turks. HOPEFULLY one day I will feel that Armenians are sincerely not out for revenge anymore, that is the day Turkey can start to “officially” deal with its history. I may feel bad personally about what happened but I will never allow anyone to use our past misfortunes against us. This is the bottom line. If you do not accept this, than I accept the current status-quo of the antagonistic relationship between us.

    • .Please read Taner Akcam’s article before comparing Armenians and Turks.

    • Dear Secular…,

      This is not ‘your’ past misfortune—it is ‘our’ past misfortune!

      What a strange and sad way to look at things. Let’s look at the facts:

      We were almost eliminated as a group and one tenth of our historic territory became a soviet republic following the genocide….

      Your country got an independent republic for ‘all turks’ following the genocide and were able to maintain the majority of territories that were determined through binding arbitration to belong to Armenia…

      We lost 1.5 million souls…

      Your country lost about 50 souls through Asala targeted attacks on Turkish Diplomats; a tragedy that I don’t condone, but hardly a barbaric rampage of Armenians looking for revenge…

      We are still looking for justice after 97 years for the crimes committed against our ancestors who were citizens of the Ottoman empire, and which deprived us of our rightful heritage…

      Your country still denies responsibility while prospering from the confiscated wealth and property of murdered Armenians…

      We struggle to maintain our identity…

      Your country considers it an insult to be accused of having an Armenian grandparent and even upholds such a claim in court…

      Who has suffered and is still suffering a misfortune? Any misfortune that Turkey experiences due to this history can be ameliorated by admitting the truth and making reparations to her Armenian neighbors, and getting on with the business of normalization of diplomatic relations.

      .
      I understand that you have been raised to believe that Armenians are crazy terrorists out for Turkish blood, but the facts do not bear this out. Examine your preconceived ideas about Armenians. You are commenting out of prejudice that is not based on reality. Turks are not the poor, misunderstood, falsely accused victims here. Our complaint is not with everyday citizens of Turkey, but with a recalcitrant government, the heirs to the Ottoman Empire, which actively practices denial and negationism of our very real loss in an effort to avoid responsibility.

      BOO!

    • avatar SecularTurkishAMERICAN // February 9, 2012 at 6:54 pm //

      Boyajian – If that is your attitude I have no problem with the status-quo as I said. People have been talking bad about us for about 500 years now. Europeans, the French, etc, anyway we are doing fine. The reasons for Turcophobia are xenophobia and racism, and your people have been milking the evil attitudes of narrow minded westerners for too long. I 100% disagree with your proposition that going along with you guys will ameliorate anything. In fact it will only feed the fires of ethnic strife.

      What are your goals Boyajian? If it is simply admitting that what happened in 1915 was morally wrong than I agree. But I know just like you know, that it is also about reparations and taking land. Why should we go along with you guys when your goals are to hurt us? If you want Turkey to “officially” admit what happened was genocide then you must remove the punitive factors behind this. Again, I morally accept what happened was wrong but I will never allow foreign entities to try and exercise retribution against us. This is why we can not admit to anything. An admission would open up more attacks against Turks (in the courts) we are not stupid.

      What I would like to see happen…
      1) From Armenia and Armenians – For them to truly accept the current Turkish-Armenian border, to arrest anyone out there who wants to hurt Turks, give up on reparations.

      2)From Turkey – A declaration that what happened was morally wrong. Laws that help protect Armenians. Social programs to help Armenians in Turkey, and most importantly we should allow Armenian’s to move back to Turkey and we should provide subsidized housing, education, health care for them. We should rebuild and restore old Armenian buildings.

      As you can see my ideas are all about the future. If all you can do is dwell on the past, well don’t expect me to go along with you.

    • Secular,

      Many Turks who disparage the AG thesis acknowledge nonetheless the murder of hundreds of thousands of unarmed Armenian civilians. How do you accont for the murder of many scores of thousands of women and children?

      Who did it? How was it done?

      When pushed, many who deny the Genocide make vague reference to massacre as a spontaneous event by vague groups. If that’s your opinion, isn’t that as bad or worse than a centrally planned government slaughter?

      If i were a Turk i think i would be more ashamed of the universal massacre scenario because it implies a greater chance that great grandfather murdered pregnant women and great auntie plundered their property.

      So how did it happen? Who killed my grandparents’ families and stole their lands?

      Please don’t float the mutual combat thesis. Even Guenter Lewy ridicules this idea.

    • avatar Random Armenian // February 10, 2012 at 1:24 am //

      SecularTurkish,

      I know you’re trying to figure things out and even try to reach out to Armenians somehow, but it’s hard not to be cynical based on the things you have said.

      Couple of things:

      Turkey is the one who needs to make the first steps of substance because Turkey has a much, much, much deeper hole to dig out of. The Republic of Turkey decided officially to suppress, hide and deny history. It chose to not face the Armenian survivors and make amends. Turkey brushed its history under the rug thinking it was over and made allies not talk about it anymore. They just left a mess for future generations instead. And the nationalism and the attitude this generated since 1923 has also affected, with blood, other minorities such as Kurds and Alevis.

      Turkey itself was built by taking lands. And this is in part the root of Turkey’s own xenophobia and paranoia about its minorities.

      I’m not surprised that you are happy with the status quo because Turkey has benefited from 1915. And this leads to reparations because through the death and destruction of Armenians, their property and wealth were transferred to Turks and eventually Turkey.

      This is what upsets me so much. Our existence on those lands came to an end in 1915. The survivors had to rebuild their lives elsewhere and make the world remember again what used to be on newspaper headlines, and yet it’s us who have to reach out a hand to Turks in a submissive manner? Why? Because Turkish sensibilities are more important?

      “Dwelling on the past.” is such a patronizing phrase. I lost family in the genocide. It would be at the very least disrespectful to forget my history. But Armenians made new lives in their adoptive countries and moved into the future along with them. And against all odds, there is still a country named Armenia, however small.

    • History is the sum total of the things that could have been avoided. ~Konrad Adenauer

      You speak of the future because you wish to avoid the past. Why the hell would Armenians want to live in Turkey? We will refuse reparations, get off with a “our bad,” and offer Armenians the “privilege” to live on the lands their ancestors, while the flag of their murderers proudly waves in front of them. No one needs Turkey to state that what happened was morally wrong, who needs a reinstatement of the obvious? Armenia for Armenians? Yeah, Armenians could have Armenia for Armenians… except… you know, half their homeland is in our control. You mention people “talking bad about us” for 500 years. Uhmmm… the Ottoman Empire terrorized Europeans for centuries, as in had Vienna fallen in 1529 things could have been very different. Historically speaking, they have every reason to dislike us. Today, things are different. Europe does not hate us, they are our allies. Some of them genuinely want Turkey to join the EU. This IS NOT a personal attack. I repeat, NOT a personal attack. There’s this crazy thing called NATO, yeah, those Europeans that hate us… They’re our allies. So if someone attacked Turkey tomorrow, France would send military aid to Turkey.

    • Secular, it is hard to discuss this with someone whose world view is so different than mine. Let me show you how different we think:

      I list truthful historic facts and you think that I am ‘talking bad about Turkey.’ Armenians rightfully seek justice and you think we are ‘trying to hurt Turkey.’

      You worry about fueling ethnic strife. Who started the ethnic strife by turning indigenous people into second class ‘millets’ and perpetuates it by ruling in a court of law that to be accused of having an Armenian mother is derogatory and a punishable offense? Who chooses to side against Armenians in their struggle for self-determination in Karabagh, when they could choose to remain a neutral peace maker among neighbors? Who threatens to deport Armenians because France, a third party nation, wants to pass a bill to prohibit historical negationism?

      Foreign entities? Turks were the original foreign entities. We, the indigenous people, were forced to submit to your rule. Then we, citizens of the empire, were forced to march to Der Zor and now we, the victims, having been forced out of our homeland, are treated as foreign entities. Do you have any clue how twisted this thinking is?

      What is my goal? For your nation to pay its debt to mine. Yes reparations. Yes land. Why not? Why shouldn’t Turkey pay a price for its crime? Isn’t this the way justice works? The goal of justice isn’t to hurt the guilty, but to restore the innocent. The goal was never to ‘hurt’ Turkey, but for the wrong that was done to Armenians to be made right.

      I disagree that this is about the past. The effects of the genocide are with us today. The need for justice is a need in the present. This is about a post-genocide future for Armenians and Turks.

      How do you propose to make things right? Do you think that almost murdering an entire nation doesn’t require restitution beyond an apology? Do you believe that Turkey owes us nothing but words? Do you think that Turkish national pride should trump the responsibility to repay Armenians for their stolen heritage, land and wealth. What about the villages and communities and traditions that you now claim as your own, that were created over thousands of years? What is their worth? How can you replace the thousands of treasured Armenian churches that have been destroyed, turned into sheepfolds and museums since 1915? And what about the people, the future poets, scientists, musicians, artists, writers, teachers, farmers, craftsman, etc., that were stolen from the world? What are they worth?

      Do you think subsidized housing in the land where it is an insult to call someone Armenian is enough? Are we dogs that you can throw a bone to in order to distract us?

      Special laws? Go ahead. It is tantamount to admitting your systemic Armenophobia.

      You fear Armenian militancy? That’s comical. The aggressor sees itself as the victim! The truth is your society fears retribution for the crime that you have tried to push out of your collective consciousness. Like the fugitive criminal who spends his life looking over his shoulder wondering when justice will catch up with him; it makes one a bit paranoid.

      What you propose may be a sincere effort to atone for what your ancestors did, but to me it is not much better than if you had killed my grandmother and now propose that you will cook dinner for me as repayment as long as I don’t mention what happened to grandma or ask you to return her jewelry.

      Turkey is a sick society in need of a cure that can’t happen without facing justice.

    • RVDV, thank you for stepping outside of the Turkish perspective and expressing things to Secular from the point of view of others looking at Turkey.

      Statements like Secular’s always make me wonder how we will ever penetrate the deep seated denial and wounded pride of Turkish nationals like him/her. I don’t hold much hope for this. This rigid lack of empathy and belief that Turkey should suffer nothing for having deliberately, illegally and brutally purged itself of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc., is the very reason that Armenians have turned their efforts toward garnering support from ‘foreign entities’ in hopes that international pressure might bring us justice.

      I am always grateful to encounter Turks who understand the bigger picture. It gives me hope. Even so, winning the hearts and minds of the average brain-washed Turk doesn’t seem the most efficient path to justice. After all, genocide is an international crime, a crime against all humanity, and therefore, all nations should take their part in holding Turkey accountable.

      Sorry Secular, if my quest for justice seems vengeful to you. Turkey wants to play ball with the big boys now and has to play by the rules. Big boys face the consequences of their actions, and when they don’t, others hold them responsible.
      No special rules for Turkey.

    • Holly Mother of Jesus.. Is this guy Secular for real?? Did he just say he is not afraid of Nationalist Turks but he is afraid of the potential actions of the few militant Armenians??

      Oh this is going to be good…

    • Boyajian jan.. wow.. bravo.. now we are talking.. :)

      I have further to say your Honor..:)

      Boyajian covered it all..

  5. avatar john the turk // February 9, 2012 at 4:31 pm // Reply

    Let me tell you a short story. I visited my father and mother many year ago. We were watching a program on TV about the Armenian deportation. One historian said. The Jonturk Government made an agreement with Armenians.My father said haw can you make an agreement with Armenians? I said Why not? He stared at me and said Are you joking?(possibly, implying that they aren’t trustworthy)
    I thought that this guy must be stupid as I didn’t know who Armenians were
    I have been reading and making comments on AW for a while.I am know thinking that he was spot on.I know for a fact that the society has a very good reason for this past down generation after generation

    • Unfortunately children learn from their parents.. and when a parent who does not raise his or her children by instilling such things as be true to yourself and others.. don’t simply trust our words alone but do your research/ make your own decisions, by simply lying to the children creates a whole lot of confusion, hillucinations, made up stories, ridiculeous comments and slew of lies as we can see on our pages day in and day out…….

      Very unfortunate…J. the Turk’s life got ruined because of that day when his father said to him… ” ARE YOU JOKING”” implying that Armenians are not trustworthy…

      I feel sorry for you J. The Turk.. Truly do..

    • John the Turk, this is a lovely story of the formation and perpetuation of prejudice.

  6. Boyajian made some very good points. Armenians are still targeted for murder and harassment in Turkey even today. Its hard to sympathize with people who have murdered with impunity and then want those calling for justice to cease and desist lest we hurt their feelings. In many ways, the genocide never really ended.

  7. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 9, 2012 at 6:34 pm // Reply

    Boyajian´s above two posts are very much to the point and commendable.
    Really nothing else to add, except my following bit:-
    If his adressees do not conform with what he has very clearly and truthfullyu explained ..then there certainly is something wrong with their Genes, Psychs and raisons de etres…REASON OF BEING!!!
    One more small touch to my bit…like Bakistan ande India, like Israel and palestine the Armenian Turkish relationships may stay as is , A BIG STATUS QUO, until THIRD PARTIES STEP IN AND TRY TO PERSUADE GREAT TURKEY THAT IT IS TIME FOR REPENTENCE AND COMPROMISE…

  8. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 9, 2012 at 6:58 pm // Reply

    Boyajian´s above two posts are very much to the point and commendable.
    Really nothing else to add, except my following bit:-
    If his adressees do not conform with what he has very clearly and truthfullyu explained ..then there certainly is something wrong with their Genes, Psychs and raisons de etres…REASON OF BEING!!!
    One more small touch to my bit…like Bakistan ande India, like Israel and palestine the Armenian Turkish relationships may stay as is , A BIG STATUS QUO, until THIRD PARTIES STEP IN AND TRY TO PERSUADE GREAT TURKEY THAT IT IS TIME FOR REPENTENCE AND COMPENSATIONS

  9. avatar john the turk // February 9, 2012 at 7:47 pm // Reply

    The deafening drumbeat of the propaganda, and the sheer lack of sophistication in argument which comes from preaching decade after decade to a convinced and emotionally committed audience, are the major handicaps of Armenian historiography of the diaspora today.

  10. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 10, 2012 at 12:41 am // Reply

    I regret to see such absurdity on this site.Ref.is to J.the turk above few lines..
    he imagines himself as a prophet or a psycho-analyst , trying to analyze our articles here.he won´t get far in his ploy either of trying to distract us from our MAIN OBJECTIVE,that of un relentingly struggling along to gain Worldwide recognition of the Genocide perpetrated omn our forfathers and reclaiming what was theris from userpers…
    You may rest assured that very soon, we shall attain our objectives and it will be very hard for the like of you to swallow defeat…
    Like little brother AZerbaboon has not been able to,so far.Nonetheless ,very recent events in France and CH show some change of attitude in their mode.

    • Mr. Palandjian.. did I hear you make a funny comment??? Yes you did sir and I LOVE ITTTTTTTT…

      AZerbaboon… sooooooo approrpriate.. learning new words every day..:)

      Thank you

  11. avatar Random Armenian // February 10, 2012 at 1:25 am // Reply

    JTT:

    “The deafening drumbeat of the propaganda, and the sheer lack of sophistication in argument which comes from preaching decade after decade to a convinced and emotionally committed audience, ”

    Projecting much?

  12. avatar Random Armenian // February 10, 2012 at 1:25 am // Reply

    I don’t think I’m going to post for a while. It’s just too draining.

    • RA don’t give up… . this is how they try to get us.. to work us up so that we get tired of repeating the things they already know.. they play stupid to make us angry.. ….

      Unfortunate for them sick minds, there are plenty of us out there.. let them try.. and end result will be very dissapointing..

    • interesting you developed the drainage problem right now.
      A Turk unambiguously insults an Armenian lady, and all I hear is crickets from the posters with high degree of sensitivity. Apparently the sensitivity is reserved for Turk posters, who are perceived, only perceived mind you, to have been allegedly – but not actually – insulted.

      here is the insult in case you missed it:
      {“Boyajian……… I will slap you in the face with no mercy”}

      No wander we get no respect: Armenians are busy attacking other Armenians, while a Turk promises to slap an Armenian lady, and nobody says a word.

  13. avatar john the turk // February 10, 2012 at 10:32 am // Reply

    Boyajian
    I will grant you Armenians eastern Turkey with the existing population.But if I hear that you complain about having eastern Turkey. I will slap you in the face with no mercy

    • Be more specific, John.

    • Boyajian: I think he is saying that Eastern Turkey is the least populated, poorest, coldest, and all around not somewhere many Turks want to live. All around, pretty miserable.

    • My post to J The Turk did not come through so I will try again..

      J The TURK.. you ignorant and racist denialist… are you threatening Boyajian with your ” I will slap you in the face with no mercy? is that all you can do? Hurt women?? Of course..you are good for nothing pathetic individual..

      I feel sorry for you…

  14. Secular
    you write:
    What are your goals Boyajian? If it is simply admitting that what happened in 1915 was morally wrong than I agree. But I know just like you know, that it is also about reparations and taking land. Why should we go along with you guys when your goals are to hurt us? If you want Turkey to “officially” admit what happened was genocide then you must remove the punitive factors behind this.
    comment:
    Reparations of the kind Armenians are asking for are part of international ethics. If you admit that what happened was morally wrong, how can you refuse reparions and say that reparations are made to “hurt you”? Does this give sense? Regarding changing the borders this has been asked in many instances, how can se see the wish for border changes as simply somthing done to “hurt” Turks?

    • I got emotional and wordy above. You put it succinctly. Thanks for the support, Ragnar.

    • Right, thanks for the support “inbred Armenians” Mr. Naess.
      Thanks for the support “disposed of bodies of AG victims” Mr. Naess.

      We need more support like this:
      “{ “…what the ittihadists did by deporting close to one million Armenians before they could support the Russian army with more volunteers, food and so one, with catastrophic results for the Armenians. “} (@AW January 21, 2012)

      If only we had more support like yours.
      All our problems would be solved.

    • ain’t that the truth Avery…

      because the support of those who think like Ragnar is IMMENSLY NEEDED.. Oh yeahhhh….. i mean who does not need the support of those who after many many many many posts to understand the purpose of their existance on our pages, then finally getting a word GENOCIDE out of their mouth (of course very relunctuntly) but yet not believing it was state organized… of course we need such people’s support who are confused, but determined to convince us otherwise.. that it was a catastrophy not done by the state.. that using science overwrites facts/eye witness stories/documents/telegrams/etc……

      Oh we can’t wait for Ragnar and his ilk to support us.. yeahhh….

      Side note: this post is drenched in sarcasm of course…

    • Gayane:

      Naess did NOT actually admit to ‘Genocide’.
      He was quoting what the Denialist ‘SecularTurkishAMERICAN’ wrote.

      What ‘Secular’ wrote is a well qualified If-Then-Else construct.
      Sort of like what PM Erdogan said about Dersim: “If it was massacre, then….” (IF !)

      Denialists are smoother than the best Oriental Silk: you gotta be on your toes at all times – otherwise I cannot take you along on my next secret mission.

  15. Secular,

    How would you like it if I can to your home, killed your brothers, uncles and father, raped your sisters and cut your pregnant wifes belly open and fucked everything up in your home and took all your valuables and decide to call your home mine. You survive after this incident, then start creating commotion so everyone around you realizes that I’m a real piece of shit that needs to be hung and everything be stripped of me and returned to its rightful owner. But just because, with your riches, I have hired and army and created an entourage no one wants to deal with me because I’m the cow with a lot of milk because of you.

    What you are saying is that I should apologize to you, fix the bullets in the walls of your home and rent you one of the rooms and ensure your security.

    • forgot to add this Tigran jan—-then bring dinner every night on a golden platter..

      This is why we have a saying ” freaks of nature”… i get dumbfounded that such ignorance and stupidity and denialism exist in the world..humanity in people like Robert the Turk, Murat, Secular, J The Turk, Necati and more unimportant individuals like them seems nonexistance…

    • Well said Tigran:

      A little too colorful for my taste, but the sentiment is my kind of sentiment.

      You have to be careful with your language though: there are some Armenian posters who are very sensitive towards the feelings of Turks (but only Turks).

      You can’t be too rough on Denialists: the Sensitivity Police might issue you a citation.

  16. avatar john the turk // February 11, 2012 at 9:47 am // Reply

    Gayane
    You still didn’t understand what I was talking about. I can assure that I wasn’t told anything about Armenians during my childhood by my parents.The story I told you is about 5-7 years old and I wasn’t interested in Armenians at that time.

  17. So how is the “dialoguing ” going ?

    So far we have the usual circular dialogue developing with the Denialist ‘SecularTurkishAMERICAN.’, who has been most magnanimous to admit that what happened in 1915 is, “morally wrong”.

    Everybody bow. Great progress has been made “dialoguing”. Keep “dialoguing”. Some day Turks like him might agree to throw a couple bucks your way.

  18. Thanks, Avery. You are most gallant. Honestly, I just laughed when I read the ‘slap’ comment from John the Turk above and laughed even harder picturing how quickly I’d ‘slap’ him with a lawsuit for thinking that in the 21st century a Turk can still get away with assaulting an Armenian. Quite an evolved gentleman!

    Also, I see that your ‘cyber knife’ is in top form!

  19. Secular and john the turk
    Sadly, many Turks like you suffer from the megalomania about the “Superior Turkish race”. This is what prevents you from putting things in the right perspective. You are not used to speak to Armenians as equals, but would rather have them as submissive partners. The time may come when you would have to learn it the hard way.

  20. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 11, 2012 at 2:40 pm // Reply

    Gayane,dear
    I did not make up that wrd.An Armenian lady here om this forum did.I never steal

    • Mr. Palandjian.. I hope you did not think I was implying that you stole the word… hopefully not.. but it was absolutely brilliant nonethe less..:) Thank you…

  21. The best weapon we posses is to continue isolating Turkey. We should continue our work on creating a sanitarian civilization belt around Turkey including Serbia, Greece, Armenia, Iran, Syria, and lately Israel. That would include a very strong “NO” to Turkey in EU and continued justified humiliation of so-called Turkish republic and Turkish democracy.

  22. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 11, 2012 at 5:21 pm // Reply

    Dear Gayane,
    That word Azerbaboon, is not coined by me,I never steal others´,it was used by an Armenian lady here on AW sometime ago…
    So it suddenly came back to me…
    But she must have thought it very appropriate,since those Azeris are likely to resume war/attack on our Artsakh.They cannot(their governing elite or party people) accept that they lost.they have been known to crush , loot, corner and kill Armenians (unarmed,of course) for ovder a century….
    This time over arms against arms will be a horrible one if they rekindle it.
    I can assure you our boys and the elderly will give it to them in a very harsh way.

  23. When I read this article I tented to agree with Grant Izmirlian’s comment of Feb 8. But when I saw “Falcon’s” Feb 9 comment, I re-read Akcam’s article and even went to the original Turkish version (just in case something went fuzzy in the translation), and I must re-affirm that, despite the correct emotions expressed by Akcam in this article, I cannot see how one can make the link Akcam is proposing.
    This is at best a very dubious correlation and/or assumption. Unlike Akcam’s research in general, in this case he goes on a limb and plays detective, without any shred of evidence.

    I also agree totally with Alain and Boyajian, very well put indeed.

    Finally, I must agree with Murat when s/he says “Where is the Armenian Akcam?”. Indeed where is s/he? I hope that one day we will have someone better than Akcam.

  24. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 12, 2012 at 2:25 pm // Reply

    I like what gamavor writes above.I just put in my two penny worth below Ken HACHIKIAN’s very well comosed letter to Secretary of
    State Hillay Clinton.In brief,I conveyed an idea that you touch upon in another format.
    That the US ought to think of Republics of Armenia and Georgia (jointly) taking over what greart Turkey now supposedly does.That of an all in Nato in the area.ndeed ,then other third country or countries like Greece and IRAN(this latter could be very friendly )would als join in,neutralizing great Turke.
    Already yesterday one important high ranking Greek person was hinting of ousting Turkey out of the Nato alliance….

  25. If the barbarian puts suit on himself it won’t make him civilized….

    I disagree that Turkey is a pre-genocidal or post-genocidal state. Turkey is in genocidal state, it was well hidden since Ataturk took the power.

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