Sassounian: Genocide Is the Right Word, Justice Is the Ultimate Goal
By Harut Sassounian // Posted on February 12, 2013 in Harut Sassounian // 387 Comments // 
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President Serge Sarkisian’s comments on Feb. 5 generated much controversy when he reportedly stated at a campaign stop in Yerevan that “tseghasbanoutyoun” (genocide) and “yeghern” (atrocity) are synonymous. He asserted that President Barack Obama, without uttering the word “genocide,” had said “everything.” The Armenian head of state was referring to Obama’s use of the term “Medz Yeghern” (Great Atrocity) rather than “Armenian Genocide” in his annual April 24 commemorative statements.
Raphael Lemkin
The words yeghern and Medz Yeghern were used by Armenians mostly before Raphael Lemkin coined the term “genocide” in 1943 to describe the organized mass killings of Armenians during the 1915-23 period. Before 1943, Armenians used various expressions to refer to those killings, such as chart (massacre), medz vojir (great crime), aghed (disaster), deghahanoutyoun (deportation), and aksor (exile). However, none of these words have the legal connotation of tseghasbanoutyoun or genocide under international law.
Since 1943, Armenians have spent much time and effort convincing the world that they were the victims of genocide, and are now seeking justice from Turkey under international law. This is the fundamental reason why Armenians demand genocide recognition, not massacres, atrocities, or deportations.
The only reason Obama has used the term Medz Yeghern in his annual statements is to avoid the words Armenian Genocide, in acquiescence to Turkish pressure. If Medz Yeghern and genocide have the same meaning, why doesn’t Obama use the term genocide instead of Medz Yeghern? After all, then-presidential candidate Obama did not promise Armenian-American voters that, if elected, he would recognize the Medz Yeghern; he pledged to recognize the Armenian Genocide.
Thus, all who allege that Medz Yeghern and genocide are synonymous are simply giving Obama a free pass and allowing him not to keep his solemn pledge. They are also undermining several decades of extensive lobbying efforts for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide!
Those who claim equivalence between Medz Yeghern and genocide do it not out of ignorance of Armenian terminology. They know full well that the two words don’t have the same meaning. Their real reason is to declare victory by making people believe that the president of the United States did after all acknowledge the validity of the Armenian Genocide.
There are a couple of fallacies in this approach. First, regardless of what Medz Yeghern means to Armenians, it is a meaningless term to all those who do not speak Armenian. Second, equating Medz Yeghern and genocide to claim success on genocide recognition is a futile exercise. It is really unnecessary to twist the meaning of Obama’s words. The United States recognized the Armenian Genocide as far back as 1951, when the government submitted an official document to the International Court of Justice (World Court) acknowledging the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide as examples of genocide. Another U.S. president, Ronald Reagan, issued a Presidential Proclamation on April 22, 1981, in which he mentioned the Armenian Genocide. Moreover, the House of Representatives acknowledged the Armenian Genocide by adopting two resolutions in 1975 and 1984.
Consequently, there is no longer a pressing need to pursue further acknowledgment of the Armenian Genocide by passing repeated congressional resolutions or demanding that Obama utter the words Armenian Genocide. Nor is there a need to reinterpret Obama’s statements, claiming that by using the term Medz Yeghern he has automatically acknowledged the Armenian Genocide. The only reason Obama should recognize the genocide is to be a man of his word.
It is imperative for Armenians and their supporters to concentrate their efforts on the eve of the centennial of the genocide not on gaining further recognition—an already accomplished fact—but on securing justice for the massive crimes committed against their ancestors a hundred years ago.
Rather than demanding that the U.S. or even Turkey acknowledge the genocide, which would not result in any concrete benefit, Armenians should focus their energies on more meaningful steps, such as filing lawsuits against the Turkish government in national and international courts.
Once Armenians regain their territories and properties from Turkey through legal action or as a result of unexpected geopolitical developments, the Turkish government can go on denying the genocide as long as it wants!
Related Articles:
Sassounian: Mr. President, Armenian Americans Reject Your Offensive Word Games on Genocide
Sassounian: Genocide Recognition and a Quest for Justice
Sassounian: Sarkozy Says ‘Tseghasbanoutyoun,’ a Word Obama Has Yet to Utter
Sassounian: Roadmap to Nowhere or New Delay Tactic: Genocide Recognition in 2015?
Gaytzag Palandian,
the name is Norwegian. I have been intermittently in this debate forum for quite some time. I have never done any extensive research on Andranik Toros Azanian. As far as I understand he was the leader of the four Armenian volunteer units formed by the Russians in late 1914, and fought the Ottoman general Halil at Dilman in late april shortly after the fighting at Van erupted. Then he was operative in the Russian conquest of Van in May 1915, and later in the Russian advance towards Malazgirt and towards Bitlis in june. Now there are narratives of massacres of Turks in Van when the Russian and Armenian units took the city in May. These are from missionaries that is neutral or pro-Armenian sources. The Venezuelan Nogales who served with Halil and returned with him from the fighting at Dilman, tells that “neither Armenians nor Turks gave any quarter” and killed each other indiscriminately without taking any prisoners. Peter Holquist cites Russian sources in his article in “A Question of Genocide” which also confirm massacres of Turks, to an extent that whole valleys were depopulated. The monument we visited outside Erzurum was about Turkish civilians, mainly women and children who allegedly were locked in a mosque and burned alive by Armenian units who had failed to take Erzurum some days before. But my concern in this situation was the onesidedness of the Turkish spokesmen on this occasion, a conference on “Turkish-Armenian relations”. I believe all parties appeared both in the role of victim and perpetrators in this terrible catastrophy, but of course these killings, if they really took place, came after the considerably bigger mass killings of Armenians in 1915-16. In my debates in the WATS listserve some Armenians scholars referred to these killings as the acts of “avengers”. So from my scant knowledge I doubt that it is true that Andranik never organized or refrained from hindering massacres of Turks. But of course I may be wrong
Maxime, what was the reason for the disbanding of the Armenian units in late 1915? .
I explain the reasons in my article on the Armenian volunteers, published by the “International Review of Turkish Studies” a bit more than one year ago.
You will find my e-mail address in my article for the “European Journal of International Law”. I have lost yours, I will tell you why.
GAUIN: “Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918.”
Where exactly were these “thousands of skeletons of Muslims” found?
Alaca (Erzurum), Yesilyayla (Erzurum), Timar (Erzurum), Oba (Igdir), Hak Mehmed (Igdir), Subatan (Kars), Zeve (Van)…
All the mass graves found in Turkey & they total more than 300 are the mass graves of Armenians.What the mercenary says is the Turkish version that these are non Armenian mass graves & as usual to cover up.Where are the skeletons of the 1.5 million Armenians perished?Where are the skeletons of my massacred family?
The locals know the TRUTH very well as it had passed from father to son.They know it very well.
Again read this book.
About Armenian mass graves in the Varto region,read: Rebel Land: Among Turkey’s Forgotten Peoples by Christopher de Bellaigue,p111 valley of Newala Ask.
where exacty is this plaque that commemorates the mass murder of turk civilians? How far from Erzurum is it? what is the name of the village? were they primarily Turks living in that village? Is it just a small plaque or is it a major memorial?
Out of curiousity, how do you distinguish Muslim skeletons from Christian ones?
If there are small Kurans close to the skeletons, you can assume that the people were Muslims. If, in addition, you make blind DNA tests with the supposed grand-children of the victims, and if the tests are positive, you can say without doubt that the victims were Muslims.
Look at the audacity of this dirty mercenary.
I am ready for a DNA test & let us see.
{“you can say without doubt that the victims were Muslims.”}
So how is a DNA test supposed to determine one’s religion ?
And this guy is supposed to be some kind of a scholar ?
Does any real scholar out there know of a DNA test that can determine one’s religion ?
“So how is a DNA test supposed to determine one’s religion ?”
Who are you trying to convince with that?
I repeat: “you make blind DNA tests with the supposed grand-children of the victims.”
No need to repeat your nonsense. go and read your own post.
don’t change the wording.
you wrote: {“…..were Muslims”}
admit you don’t know what you are talking about.
The name of the village is Cinis (today ortaköy) in the Aşkale Ilçe, approxoimately where the West-going road from Erzurum bifurcates in the roads to bayburt and Erzincan. There is a whole monument to the memory of the killed ones, close to the village, across the road near an old Turkısh cemetery. The visit of the scholars of the Conference in early may 2012 was reported in newspapers, see http://www.dha.com.tr/erzurumda-toplu-mezar-ziyareti_307934.html
There is even a photo of us standing in front of the memorial. The placque is in a building which is part of the memorial, and in which we had lunch.
From the information I found through a google search, it appears the killings took place in april 1918. Kazim Karabekir’s troops arrived a short time afterwards, it is said, and witnessed the bodies/ the remains of the people burned.
Boyajian; here is the Turkish method of distinguishing an Armenian skull from a Turk one.
A couple of years ago, I was walking with a group of scholars down Queen St in Toronto Canada. Queen St has small art galleries, boutique stores. We saw a store selling carpets and we went in to look at them. I am always alert to Armenian patterns being passed off as Turk, so when the owner asserted a carpet with a woven cross in the corner was a genuine Turkey pattern, hand made by Turks, I questioned him. In the course of our conversation, he told us that the carpet came from an area where they had found thousands of skulls of murdered Turks. I asked how he knew they were Turks and not Armenians. With an absolutely straight face, this man stood in front of us and said that it was very easy to know if a skull was Armenian or Turkish. They simply measured the circumference. He said it is well known, documented research that Armenians have smaller skulls than Turks because they are less intelligent and therefore have less grey matter in smaller skulls,. The scholars I was with were all “odars” with PhD degrees behind them. We all left the store convulsed with laughter. It was simply impossible to stop laughing at this empty-headed, idiot Turk’s comments.
Don’t be too harsh on the Turk carpet seller, Perouz: their demigod, Mustafa Kemal, actually commissioned ‘scientific’ experiments to measure skulls.
{With full official support, she began a countrywide campaign of “cephalometry” (measuring the skulls of living people), “craniometry” (measuring the skulls of dead people), and “phrenology” (inferring characteristics from skull features). A staggering 64,000 people are known to have been “measured” during this campaign — and many graves were opened, including that of Sinan.}
(article in Hurriyet. ‘she’ is Kemal’s adopted daughter Afet İnan)
Perouz,this skull measuring issue is a famous one.In1935 the Turks measured the skull of ‘Mimar Sinan’ to prove that he was not Armenian.Funny enough & since then his skull is not in his grave.
Of course they ignore a decree by Selim II dated Ramadan 7 981 (ca. Dec. 30, 1573), which grants Sinan’s request to forgive and spare his relatives from the general exile of Kayseri’s Armenian community to the island of Cyprus.
@ Avery and VTiger: I strongly recommend you the collection of “Hairenik” and “Hairenik Weekly” for the years 1935 and 1936.
Maxime and Maxime:
I strongly recommend TodaysZaman, March 30, 2012.
Deranged frustrated mercenary,”I strongly recommend you the collection of “Hairenik” and “Hairenik Weekly” for the years 1935 and 1936″, explains nothing.
Congratulations for your bold article.
I completely agree with you. “Céder sur les mots, c’est céder sur les choses” has said Freud. (I’ll let translate into appropriate english terms)
It has been a long time since I am firmly convinced that the only way out of all this mess for armenian people is to undertake legal action, that is to file lawsuits against the turkish government in national and international courts.
Too much time has been lost!
Who can believe half a minute hat Obama or any other government leader are men of their words?….
So true!
For the moment, the two court cases by Armenian Americans in U.S. were lost.
in some of the cases of mass graves there are also oral history that confirms it.
A good example of father to son passed oral history is:
Armenian mass graves in the Varto region,read: Rebel Land: Among Turkey’s Forgotten Peoples by Christopher de Bellaigue,p111 valley of Newala Ask.
{“…..there are also oral history that confirms it.”}
Please observe our sophisticated Denialist guest at work:
When it comes to Turks, it ‘confirms’ it: no doubt about it.
When it comes to Armenians, it is a source to ‘discover’ something, that may or may not be there: subtly inject doubt and uncertainty.
to wit…a trip to the memory lane:
{“ragnar naess April 28, 2012
oral history certainly is a very important source for discovering what happened in Eastern Anatolia and Syria in 1915-16.}” (@AW)
{“VTiger April 28, 2012 Hi Ragnar,hope you are well.Absolutely there’s no need to discover what happened.Discover?I should consider it as an insult …It’s a fact for us the Armenians & for the rest of the world.”} (@AW)
[above Public Service Announcement message was brought to you by your local Inbreeding Armenian. I am Avery the Inbreeding Armenian, and I approve this message.]
One example is the discovery in October 2006 of a mass burial site close to Kızıltepe in the province of Mardin in South-East Turkey. Villagers from the Kurdish village Xirabebaba – the official Turkish name is ”Kuru” – were digging graves for their own inhabitants, and found a cave full of skeletons. They explain that their parent- and grandparent generation had told them that Christian Armenians had been massacred in this place in 1915. David Gaunt ,them as partly Armenians, partly Assyrians and even provided a date 14 of july 1915. the turkish historian Halacoglu who was involved in an investigation however said that the skeletons probably were from Roman times. —-
In the same way old Turkish villagers in Zeve in the Van area identified the place where Armenians had killed villagers during WW1, and excavations were also made. — I think one has the main burden of proof if one holds that there are no mass graves of Turks massacred by Armenians from this terrible period, only mass graves of Armenians– In Cinis I spoke to an old man for whom these memories were alive because he had heard it from his parent and grandparent generation. He told that these events had been related to him as a child. Possibly because he was closer to these events, taken as personal tragedies, he agreed with me that one should also focus on massacres of Armenians. At least this is what he said.
There is no doubt that a massacre of Christians took place close to Mardin in July 1915. The date provided by David Gaunt is, not surprisingly, inaccurate, since the document mentioning this slaughter is date July 12, 1915: Hikmet Özdemir and Yusuf Sarinay, “Turkish-Armenian Conflict Documents,” Ankara, TBMM, 2007, p. 161). The slaughter is also mentioned in the field notes of Emory H. Niles and Arthur E. Sutherland, published by Brian Johnson in 2010 (I am speaking of the field notes, not the report published in 1990 by Justin McCarthy).
But the skeletons discovered in October 2006 were not the skeletons of these people.
1. Mercenary:
a)”There is no doubt that a massacre of Christians took place close to Mardin in July 1915″
Now,now,now…Who are those Christians other than the Armenians & Assyrians?Couldn’t you write down Armenians & Assyrians or it is forbidden by your master?
b)”Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918″
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=449&nID=20634&NewsCatID=396
Now,now,now again…How could you differentiate between a Muslim & Christian skeleton?
Answer:Depending on the aims & targets of the propaganda machine USAK that pays your French mercenary blood tainted salary.
2. Ragnar:
I totally do not accept your 2nd paragraph Turkish side story,nor the mercenary’s “Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918″.
Mainly & a very simple logic.Turks & Kurds were the ones left on my confiscated butchered homeland.And if there were any killings of Turks they would have given them a proper Muslim burial immediately afterwards.They would have very well known wherever the killings had taken place & please do not come up with contrary excuses as it is an insult to your French & Norwegian brains.
You both do not understand the mentality of Muslims & the Islam religion & local customs & taboos.
Both of you instead of being here trying as hard as you could & with whatever tricky methods & with whatever bits that you get hold of that suits your master’s aims & targets, trying to convince 2nd generation Genocide survivors who were brought up with the forever tears & sufferings of their parents GO & CONVINCE THE HONORABLE TURKS & KURDS INTELLIGENTSIA WHO HONORABLY APOLOGIZED FOR THE MASSACRES COMMITTED BY THEIR FOREFATHERS.
I have been to this complex of monuments and plaques. It may very well be the most shameful example of genocide denial ever erected in history. It stands as proof of the claim of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that when genocide is denied by the perpetrators, that genocide is perpetuated. I was there with a small group who were on pilgrimage to their villages. We wanted to hold in our hands the blood soaked soil where our ancestors had once lived. I am reprinting what is on one of the plaques so readers will know how low Turks have sunk in their efforts to deny the barbarism the world already knows about. Please note that they have shamelessly even used the April 24 date. Several pilgrims were overcome with grief as we stood in front of this monument of denial. There is no question as to the validity of scholarly research that documents the effects of genocide on succeeding generations. These Genocide deniers are supporting the actions of evil barbarians with their revisionist histories. They are doing it in order to not be held accountable for their actions – present and past. There can be no more reprehensible goal than this.
I have copied below exactly what is carved on just one of these free standing, large plaques. All spelling, punctuation, and grammar is exactly as shown on the plaque except I have not capitalized all font.
YOU TRAVELER !
This land piece, on you unintentionally step
Is a land where an age had passed,
Lean and carefully listen to this mass of land,
It is the crucial part, the heart of a motherland.
This monument is put up by the Kars Governorship on the 1992, in the memory of our innocent civilian people who had lost their lives during the Armenians’ trial of wiping the village of Subatan of the map.
At the end of the 1 st World War and after the Brest-Litovsk Agreement, while the Russians were drawing back from this region, the Armenians who had found the opportunity to do anything began a massacre in all the villages in the west of Arpacat.
It is still told in tears by our citizens, living in this region, that on 24 th of April 1918 Armenians entering the village called Subatan gathered the people and took their valuable belongings and jewelry, put the people together into the haylofts, poured kerosene, and set them to fire, cut the heads of some of the villagers with axes without separating child old woman or man cleaved the abdomens of our pregnant women, stick the bayonets into the unborn babiesleft the corpses around to be pulled and torn into pieces by the dogs.
And totally 570 Turkish had been murdered brutally and painfully.
Ragnar Ness: You wrote: “There is even a photo of us standing in front of the memorial. The placque is in a building which is part of the memorial, and in which we had lunch.”
If the text I have copied above is the plaque you are refering to, it is not inside a building. It is large, free standing, and outdoors, imbedded in gravel. I have a photo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79mXzUrxVHs
Yes, Harut, you are correct. It is called Genocide, the Armenian Genocide. And, it is being perpetuated by denialists. Yes, Justice is the Ultimate Goal. It will come.
What is Justice? A vague undefined demand! Justice according to whom?
The ultimate goal is Accountability. Genocide acknowledgment with accountability.
Accountability is land, reparation and restitution.
Frankly, the denialists on this post have won by cornering you exactly where they wanted; that is for Armenians to argue endlessly about the genocide, weeping and victimization, and not discussing accountability.
Sad but true.
Asking for “Justice”, sounds like the crying beauty queen speech who wishes for World Peace upon receiving her crown in the pageantry competition.
And demanding “accountability” when you have no plan to achieve it is not any better. So back to square one.
Mercenary & Ragnar,watch this clip provided by Perouz & pause exactly at 0.50 second & inspect the photograph properly & see this mass grave & ask yourselves the questions:Is this how Muslims bury their dead with the onlookers & diggers pausing for this photo shoot?Do you see an imam?Do you see anybody crying over the dead?Is there any shrouded corpse as how Muslims bury their dead?Don’t Muslims bury their dead individually?
Perouz
no, the text you copied is another text. The text I reacted to was different. And as your text says this was another village, Subatan in Kars vilayet, not Cinis in Erzurum.
RVDV
There is to my mind no fault in asking for justice even if you despair of how to achieve it. If the territories allotted to Armenia in 1920 in sevres is an expression of justice today, is another matter. But I note that president Özal considered goiving parts of Van vilayet to Armenia
[president Özal considered goiving parts of Van vilayet to Armenia]. –Really? Did he consider this before or after his threat to drop bombs on Armenia?
“But I note that president Özal considered goiving parts of Van vilayet to Armenia”
That’s just a rumor.
Vtiger
Well, your last message is of a kind I have seen many times in AW. I have made my statement earlier and even cited sources that are friendly to the Armenian cause.
Ragnar,I do not know to which of my comment you are referring,as you have started a new thread.
In summary all the mass graves that have been discovered & surely to be discovered in the future are the mass graves of Armenians & Assyrians.
Denialists keep on repeating:where are the mass graves when they have even confiscated our skeletons.
The denial complex at Subatan has many plaques, a very large sculpture of two armed soldiers. So, why are the Genocide deniers so hung up about Subatan that they would build monuments on this scale to a small village with about 570 inhabitants? This was not a Turk village as the Genocide deniers want you to believe. Its population was primarily Greek and Armenian. On the morning of November 2, 1920, a clear, cloudless day, in front of the Greek village of Subatan, Yerevan’s Tenth Reserve Regiment, assisted by Mourad of Tsronsk’s mounted group of Daron’s elite soldiers fought against Aghpapa’s Turks with great success, in spite of being greatly outnumbered by the enemy. The Turks lost 75 – 100 men; we lost 3. Could this be what is so difficult for the Turks to swallow that they put up plaques?
Vtiger
I answered the post where your message to me started with the words:Ragnar:
I totally do not accept your 2nd paragraph Turkish side story,nor the mercenary’s “Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918″
As I said I believe it is convincingly documented that Armenians massacred Turks, but this fact has really nothing to do with the Armenian cause strictly speaking. It is the Armenians who have asked for recognition of the Genocide and they should have a better answer. Whether Armenians massacres Turks or not is another question and – whether true or false – it has no relevance for the Armenian demand for recognition.
Ragnar,if you comment on my comments please continue the thread so that I & readers follow the thread line.Starting new thread is unprofessional.
Subject was the mass graves & all discovered & surely in future to be discovered mass graves are of Armenians & Assyrians.There are no Muslim mass graves.
Old Anatolian saying: When asked for proof the fox pointed at his own tail.
The following is a quotation from the preface of Yusul Halacoglu’s “The Story of 1915: What Happened To The Ottoman Armenians?”
“In point of fact every historical source shows that the Armenian gangs were engaged in plans for establishing an Armenian state and. . . . thus the Armenians were drawn into a disaster from which they could not emerge. This struggle made the Armenians see people whom they had lived alongside for centuries or even millennia as enemies and led ultimately to their leaving their lands.”
The Armenians left? They hated their neighbors and left? Every historical source shows. . . . .? This is what passes for serious scholarship at the “Turkish Historical Society”? But what about the infamous “deportations”? Oh, temporarily forgotten! And yet this is the source Gauin cites for a footnote supposedly disposing of the whole idea that there was genocidal intent on the part of the CUP.
And what documentation does Halacoglu offer? References to Ottoman documents that are inaccessible to any objective outside observer and can therefore be made to say whatever Halacoglu wants them to say. Where are the transcripts of the proceedings and what is their availability so that one can see whether the accused were actually tried for murdering innocent Armenians or rather for keeping the spoils taken from them in violation of the rules of the criminal enterprise that employed them?
1) Yusuf Halaçoglu relies also on British, U.S. and French documents, not only on Ottoman ones.
2) A significant part of the Ottoman documents used by Yusuf Halaçoglu are published since years.
3) The unpublished documents are available easily. Ara Sarafian, Hilmar Kaiser and Taner Akçam (among others) worked in the Ottoman archives. You missed Dr. Kaiser’s interview: http://khatchigmouradian.blogspot.com/2008/03/interview-with-hilmar-kaiser.html
{“A new bill criminalizing the “denial” of the unsubstantiated “Armenian genocide” claims was introduced in the French National Assembly with the barely implicit support of Mr. Sarkozy.”} (Gauin, Hurriyet, December/19/2011)
It is interesting that Gauin invokes Hilmar Kaiser.
His published works (from the blog):
“The Baghdad Railway and the Armenian Genocide, 1915-1916: A Case Study in German Resistance and Complicity,”: got that Gauin ? Genocide.
“1915-1916 Ermeni Soykirimi Sirasinda Ermeni Mulkleri, Osmanli Hukuku ve Milliyet Politikalari”: got that Gauin ? Genocide.
“Le genocide armenien: negation a ‘l’allemande’”: got that Gauin ? Genocide.
About Halacoglu:
{K.M.—How would you qualify Halacoglu’s scholarship…
H.K.—The book on the 16th century is very good…
K.M.—No, I mean his scholarship on the Armenian genocide…
H.K.—This is not so easy, you have to see who is he. He is the representative of the Turkish state. If there is a real debate between persons with intellect and command of sources, Halacoglu leads the Turkish team.}
He is the REPRESENTATIVE of the Turkish State. Clear ?
So how do you do a DNA test to determine who is or isn’t a Muslim, putative scholar Maxime Gauin ?
The General Staff Archives for Military History and the Strategic Studies Center (ATASE) are still closed.
http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-266585-1915-new-ethics-and-new-paradigm.html
Hilmar Kaiser:”Then you have the kind of politically well-connected third-rate academic creatures who are only interested in escalating the situation because they can only live on escalation, because they have nothing to offer.”
http://khatchigmouradian.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/interview-with-hilmar-kaiser.html
Hellloooooooooooooo! Doesn’t the above very well description remind you of the mercenary?
What gets lost in the whole argumentation/diatribes from denialists like Maxime Gauin and Ragnar Naess; so you believe the Turks were just taking precautions, that these were merely “deportations”, “unfortunate events”, Armenians were a “fifth column”, etc. Well then please explain what befell the Assyrians in Asia Minor during the same period.
The Assyrians were eradicated in almost equal numbers (and actually considering their pre-war numbers, suffered a proportionally larger genocide than the Armenians. Were the Assyrians held in same regards as Armenians? Werr they ungrateful, traitorous, backstabbing instruments of European powers (the same powers that kept the Sick Man alive for several decades prior to WWI yet is conveniently “forgotten” by the Turks).
In the case of the Assyrians and Armenians, it is actually overlooked that the genocide in earnest began in the Spring of 1914 ( though April 24, 1915 is the symbolic date based upon the arrest and murder of Armenian notables throughout Asia Minor) in Persian territory during the first Turkish offensive against Russian forces on the Russian-Armenian/Ottoman/Persian frontier. (lake Urmia, Khoy, etc.) These two populations (Armenian and Assyrian) were slaughtered wholesale by the Turkish Army with elements of Kurdish and Tatar bands in that locality- they were specifically targeted and this was the in the very beginning of the Ottoman Empires involvement in WWI. These peoples were not citizens of the Ottoman Empire, but they were indeed Christians and thus subjected to mass-murder.
@Maxime Gauin
Can you tell us please why do you refer to Hilmar Kaiser in all your posts and articles? As far as I know Kaiser is a genocide scholar and he only said some nice things about the Ottoman Archives and Turkish historians because he wanted to infiltrate the Turkish side. He always declared at our meetings in Boston that he is very critical of the ruling AKP, Islam and the Fetullah Gülen movement and that he will write a book about the denial industry in Turkey. And you forget that he showed new evidence that the Memoirs of Naim bey are true (http://asbarez.com/56524/is-a-long-overdue-controversy-finally-settled-aram-andonians-infamous-naim-beys-real-identity-is-now-considered-revealed/). Prof. Sarafian who holds the Dennis Papazian Chair in London always said that the Turks are hiding documents. So I think that you´re again wrong with your baseless claims!!!
1) I was replying about the access to the Ottoman archives. You refrain from replying to Hilmar Kaiser’s statements on the access to Ottoman documents.
2) Regarding Hilmar Kaiser’s publications, you may take a look at this article for… “The Armenian Weekly”: http://www.armenianweekly.com/wp-content/files/AW_Apr08.pdf#page=16 which is in perfect continuity with his interview to the same newspaper, some weeks before. And also: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14623528.2010.528999
3) I am not the spokesman of AKP or Gülen movement, so what could say or not Mr. Kaiser on these organizations is merely irrelevant. What he said on the Ottoman and Turkish archives is, however, relevant.
4) I know Ara Sarafian’s wrong statements in 1990s on the Ottoman archives, but the basic facts deny his allegations. He made 3,000 photocopies in the Ottoman archives (Hilmar Kaiser made 6,000 photocopies in the 1990s, plus countless photos in Ankara in the 2000s). Mr. Sarafian, however, is perfectly able to make more accurate remarks: http://www.reporter.am/go/article/2008-12-18-study-the-armenian-genocide-with-confidence-ara-sarafian-suggests (points 3, 4 and 5).
Gauin:
before throwing up more smoke and mirrors, and flooding the posts with selective links, answer this:
How do you propose testing whether a skeleton is ‘Muslim’ via DNA, as you asserted above.
Why don’t you provide a link to the scientific paper, presumably written @USAK, which shows that DNA testing can be used to determine a skeleton’s religion.
Also, when are you going to sue TodaysZaman for outing you as an intelligence agent ?
@Avery
Turks and denialists like Gauin try to use Kaiser against us. But Kaiser always said genocide – despite his last article about Jamal Pasha. [1]That is the main reason why Gauin celebrates his name and findings and interviews. But denialist Gauin ignores that serious scholars responded to Kaiser´s article and proved that Kaiser is wrong with his thesis that no genocide occured in greater Syria.[2]
[1.] Kaiser, Hilmar: Regional resistance to central government policies: Ahmed Djemal Pasha, the governors of Aleppo, and Armenian deportees in the spring and summer of 1915, in: Journal of Genocide Research, Volume 12, Issue 3-4 (2010), p. 173- 218.
[2.] Gust, Wolfgang: The Question of an Armenian Revolution and the Radicalization of the Committee of Union and Progress toward the Armenian Genocide, in: Genocide Studies and Prevention, Volume 7, Issue 2-3 (2012), p.251- 264. ( Gust declared: However, facts showing the extent of the genocide have been overlooked. This article will use archival documents from the Foreign Office of the German Empire, the Ottoman Empire’s wartime ally, to demonstrate the shortcomings of Kaiser’s evidence and arguments.)
The turks can put away their tape measures. The following is documentation of witnessed events during forced deportation from a village in Moush.
“The second day after they took the men in our caravan to the mountain, the sheep-milking women of Oghnout came down from the mountain and told us that our men had been massacred in a valley of the Khundili Mountain called Merguzur. They said there were wounded men still alive under the corpses. When night fell, Moushegh Malikian crawled out from under the pile of dead men and dragged himself to the Armenian shepherds.”
The following is from the same writer on the death caravan route. This caravan ended in Diyarbakir. Anyone left was murdered on the bridge there.
“We went through Khoshmat in the morning. This village, whose inhabitants had all been Armenian, was now an empty ruin. Everyone had been deported a week before our arrival. There was a horrible stench in the streets. Fifteen to twenty corpses lying under the burning sun had turned the color of ash. Three or four women had somehow managed to remain in one of the houses in the gardens of Khoshmat. They begged for permission from the caravan’s tchavoush to bring baskets of fruit to us. These women told us that 1300 Armenian youths were brought from Kghi two days earlier to be taken to Palu. Turkish soldiers had massacred them at the bottom of Nbeshi.
We came out of the gardens of Khoshmat and walked on a long road from where a narrow path climbed up to Nbeshi. The massacre had started on that path. The bodies of those 1300 unarmed Armenian youths lay before us. Those lying on the path had been killed with axes. Many had fled to the field of wheat further up the road, where bullets had then killed them. Corpses completely covered the field. Many Turks still toured around them like black vultures, flipping the corpses this way and that, taking their clothing and valuables off them. Heartbroken and lamenting, we passed from this hideous place and went toward the hills of Amarad, where we saw the bodies of 500-600 youths at the bottom of a road, all of them massacred with axes. Their bodies were piled on top of each other in a pit. They were from the villages of Palu, mostly of Havav. Walking in a slow funeral procession, everyone weeping, we reached the city of Palu at noon, where we stayed in front of the fortress.”
Thank you for your input dear Perouz.
Dear Berge Jololian, You put it perfectly well and to the point. These Turks in here, being ragnar naess or Maxime Gauin, have successfully cornered the Armenians by endlessly trying to prove their stand that an entire nation was indeed murdered. Whereas it has already been proved by the world since the 1920′s when President Woodraw Wilson drew the map of Armenia all the way up to the Black Sea to give back Armenians their lands after the Turks annihilated the entire Armenian race and drenched their own lands with their own blood, all over the Armenian Highlands (Western Armenia). It wasn’t just 1,5 Million but more than 2 Million Armenians were murdered mercilessly by the Turkish government. President Woodraw Wilson well knew as well as the entire world knew it, that’s why Wilson wanted to give back part of our lands for the very same reason:
ACCOUNTABILITY FOR OUR LANDS, REPARATION AND RESTITUTION.
WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR IT FOR 98 LONG YEARS…. IT’S ABOUT HIGH TIME.
Siroun:
Mr. Naess is Norwegian, who has professed to being in love with and infatuated with Turkey.
Mr. Gauin is French, although he is currently working in Turkey @USAK.
Both are highly polished, highly intelligent, sophisticated AG Denialists.
And although some Armenians have fallen and continue falling into their trap of attempting to endlessly convince them of this or that, rest assured they haven’t cornered most of us. Their sophisticated denial methods have been studied extensively. Many of us old-timers know them well.
There are very effective methods of ‘working’ with Denialist Turks and Turkophiles. They are very simple really, but there has to be a mental attitude change in the person to use those methods. I cannot reveal them here for obvious reasons, but we can observe how Jews deal with JH denialists and copy their methods, with necessary modifications to suit our unique situation.
Most Armenians are just too nice and too quick to forgive.
Jews have a motto: “Never forget, Never forgive”.
And they practice it. Armenians should start emulating Jews in that regard.
Regarding the discussion of the archives … There are several archives and not all of them are fully open. There have indeed been visits to the archives by Armenian Genocide scholars but again, not all of them, specially the most relevant and critical ones, are not open or very hard to access.
Below is a wikileak that discusses known and possibly still ongoing cases of destruction of archives. I’m sorry but there really is no trust with the Turkish government regarding the archives, or that matter and honest and open look at the countries history:
http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/09/10/wikileaks-stepping-out/
The thing with Maxime Gauin is that he has studied well enough so that he can obfuscate with facts and red herrings.
VTiger,
You write: Ragnar,if you comment on my comments….unquote. I am sorry abut the sequence of messages, sometimes these are jumbled by the way. I see that you deny that Armenians performed mass killings of Turks. I cannot se that we get any further in this question. I produced some sources , so if we are to discuss it I suggest you look these up. But would’nt it be natural – according to human nature – that if you have killings you aso have revenge killings?
My part in this discussion started with my reporting my reaction to the one sided Turkish memorial. But I see no reason to deny that Armenians also killed innocent Turks, as Turks and Kurds killed innocent Armenians on a much larger scale, I believe.
Ragnar,just to explain to you how to continue & comment on the same thread you go to ‘Reply’ under your name & press that.
Now please do not put issues in my mouth that I did not write or discuss similar to ‘Armenians performed mass killings…’
The subject was the ‘mass graves’ & I will repeat again that all mass graves found & surely in the future that will be found will be of Armenian & Assyrian mass graves.I explained to you the logic behind this conclusion.Finito,basta.
M. Gauin: Your 1, 2, 3 answer is no answer.
1) What other sources Mr. Halacoglu may consult is not the issue, although he is to be complimented on his versatility in languages.
2) “A significant part” of Ottoman documents does not address whether that includes the documents used in the footnotes on pages 82-86 of Halacoglu’s book. If those have been published why did you not refer to them?
3. It is well known that Sarafian and Kaiser had tremendous difficulties completing their work in the Ottoman archives and were denied further access at the point they were just getting their wheels on the ground in terms of research.
One further point, I did not miss the Kaiser interview. I am still not aware of any publication by either Kaiser or Halacoglu of their material on the prosecution of war criminals during the war. Do you have that information?
Joseph,
You write: What gets lost in the whole argumentation/diatribes from denialists like Maxime Gauin and Ragnar Naess; so you believe the Turks were just taking precautions, that these were merely “deportations”, “unfortunate events”, Armenians were a “fifth column”, etc. Well then please explain what befell the Assyrians in Asia Minor during the same period. Comment: I believe you and I have never discussed before. I never said that the Ottomans only started “deportations”, that there were “unfortunate events”, etc. To my mind a great crime was committed against the Armenians and also against the other Christian minorities. This is the bottom line, and Turkey must assume more responsibilities for this, apologize and make reparations. Since Turkey has been asked to do this for decades and has given unsatisfactory answers – even if there is some progress – the whole issue boils down to a Turkish responsibility and liability.—- But this does not mean that the term “genocide” is necessarily appropriate, or WISE, to use. And it certainly does not mean that because Turkey is something to answer for, that Armenians do not have anything to answer for. Regarding the Assyrians, I am not able to say much, but agree that they seem to have been victims of a pervasive suspicion of the itthadists, who, not unreasonably given their previous experiences with Christian Ottoman groups, possibly decided to make a pre-emptive attack on them to forstall any future difficulties. —But then of course the Nestorians in Haskkari received weapons from the Russians and were fighting the Ottomans in the Van area in early 1915. The cause for justice is badly served by insisting that the Ottoman Chruistians were 100% innocent and the Muslims 100% guilty. It is a recipe for defeat.
another polished denialist gem from our dear Denialist guest.
{“But this does not mean that the term “genocide” is necessarily appropriate, or WISE, to use”}
Oh yes it is appropriate.
Oh yes it is very wise.
And Mr. Naess, do you honestly believe we Armenians are going to take advice from a Turkophile Norwegian AG denialist who has called many of us posters here @AW “inbreeding Armenians”, and has insulted the sacred remains of our murdered ancestors (“disposed of”) ?
And who is also a good friend and frequent guest speaker of the notorious Denialist Justin McCarthy ?
Do you really, actually believe Armenians are that dumb ?
ragnar naess,
You wrote to Avery: “Turks and Kurds killed innocent Armenians on a much larger scale, I believe”. I believe? I believe????? First off, they didn’t just killed, but they murdered, and Secondly, the word believe is a Number One Denialist word and MUST NOT BE TOLERATED IN THESE COLUMNS, where an entire race has been uprooted from their OWN anscestral lands and mercilessly murdered premeditated by the Turkish Ittihadist government.
You wrote to Joseph: “This does not mean that the term “genocide” is necessarily appropriate, or WISE, to use.” Of course it is. GENOCIDE is the only APPROPRIATE word to use.”
Yes Armenians were 100% INNOCENENT during, before and after the GENOCIDE. If you don’t know it, now know it that much before the 1915 – 1923 the Armenian GENOCIDE, Armenians were constantly targeted, mercilessly annihilated and tongues were cut out if they only uttered the Armenian language. The Red Sultan Hamid II annihilated 300,000 Armenians from 1895-1896. And in-between Armenians were never free or unafraid in their own lands. The pretty girls and women and the little boys were constantly kidnapped, raped and killed by both the Turks and the Kurds. It was a constant chaos in Turkey for the past 1,000,000 years ever since the Osman Turks set foot on Armenian Highlands.
Ragnar and Maxime, as an Azeri, by default I used to think the Armenian genocide to be a false claim. Then, after reading on it very briefly, I concluded that it really happened. Frankly, I had not paid enough attention to it to try to see both sides of it. But it seems that there are some “foreign” scholars like yourselves who have a more nunanced take on those events. Of course, as Azeri I must have some kind of a bias for wishing that it was a falsity (since Armenia is our enemy). Still, I am now curious to read a bit more on what you guys have to say. As for the Armenians blankly rejecting anything and everything you have to say, it is understandable but to be discounted by a non-Armenian. As for bias, it is more likely that an Armenians is biased than a Norwegiian scholar. Of course, the latter can be boughts. But still, it is still more likely that you are more objective than an average Armenian who has nothing to gain from such objectivity.
But I have one question for you. Why do you care? I could understand if you were trying to prove it to have happened, because so many civilians died and you’d be wanting recognition and justice. But denial? Why spend so much energy on it? Personally, if it is uncertain I would give the benefit of the doube to he plaintiff than to the defendant. What if you are wrong? How unjust would that be to the memories of the victim? And if you are right? Not a big deal. So what, ok, Turks did kill a lot of people but it was not a genocide. I mean it is so anti-climactic. Why do you care? If you say, that is because you care about truth. Well, there are so many truths in the world to chase? What is consciousness? Why did Big Bang happen? Chase those truths, instead of digging in the archives of a defunct empire.
avery
you wrote: another polished denialist gem…..and so on. Comment. Yes, we disagree. We have been through this before. You believe in repetition and warning others to take my word seriously. Are you sure this is a good strategy? And I insist on remebering that you said you graduated with honours on “pstychological warfare” from a KGB academy in Baku. If you deny it I have to look through all my shelved texts from our discussions, and they run into thousands of pages by now….
Siroun, you wrote:
ragnar naess, You wrote to Avery: “Turks and Kurds killed…comment. : If you want to be informed about my views, you might read the debate after “Bedrosian, in search of lost churches”. I take it you express disagreement with me, which of course is legitimate. But maybe you have noted that I reacted to the one-sided messages of the Turks while I was in Erzurum in a conference. I also hand out leaflets to Norwegain tourists going to Turkey, asking them to ask about the fate of the Armenians. Last time was on february 9 for the ones going with the Norwegian Air Shuttle DY1262 to Antalya. However with the self service book-in it has become more difficult to reach these tourists. Earlier they were standing in long lines. I do this because I believe indifference is our main enemy. Many of these tourists would probably agree with you, but they are very passive and they know very little, so if they are convinced it will mostly be simply because of our general anti-Turkishness which I see in many Norwegians. This is not good enough. Anti-Turkishness produce no good results.
Kerim
I care because I always cared about human rights, and I worked for ten years as a volunteer in Amnesty International Norway with a specialty on Turkey. My turkish friend was arrested in 1984 and tortured and I helped him to Norway. So I have a very close relationship to Turkey, and Turkey cannot be fully democratic if it doesnt come to terms with its own past.
{“Are you sure this is a good strategy?”}
You betcha. (that’s how we says it out here in the American West).
{“And I insist on remembering that you said you graduated with honours on “pstychological warfare” from a KGB academy in Baku.”}
You can insist until you are blue in the face.
I know what I said about KGB: retrieve the post, and read between the lines.
And if you are so sure I said ‘Baku’, show me the post. It is highly improbable for me to have said Baku, because I was born in Yerevan: never been to Baku. (Oh, btw: what if I did in fact graduate from KGB academy in Yerevan. Problem with that ?)
I’ll make you a deal, Denialist: you prove I said ‘Baku’ and I will stop reminding my compatriots that you called some of us “inbreeding”.
If you fail to prove I said ‘Baku’, you will publicly apologize to readers of AW for calling some of us “inbreeding” AND for using the phrase “disposed of”. (no weasel words, like you did before e.g hurt feelings and such nonsense: you will write “I, Rangar Naess, apologize for calling Armenian posters @AW inbreeding….”: we will negotiate the exact wording later).
Deal ?
From Naess: “The cause for justice is badly served by insisting that the Ottoman Chruistians were 100% innocent and the Muslims 100% guilty.”
So saying, Naess finally–finally!– gets to his real point.
I would say this in response: In a question of international law and historical truth, the cause of justice is poorly served by superficially dwelling on the supposed moral characteristics of two different groups of people. The factuality of the Armenian Genocide does not rest on the supposed moral purity of the Ottoman Armenians, nor is it undermined by their moral imperfections. That idea is a complete fallacy and red herring. The question is one of history and state policy.
Exactly what Diran said. The Naess quote is a strawman argument. The Armenian Genocide is not about Muslims being 100% guilty.
And this is also how many nationalistic Turks who have a problem facing their history react. They try to show that Armenians were not all good. It’s a childish argument and reaction. Naess is accusing Armenians of making the opposite of what Turkish nationalist do.
The Armenian Genocide is not a judgment for or against groups of people as a whole. That would be racist. That’s the thing about genocides, it targets people on a superficial trait such as one’s ethnic association.
The other subtle argument Naess is making is that somehow the Armenian Genocide is about hate towards Turks. It’s an attempt at undermining credibility by painting Armenians with judgement corrupted by hate. Thus our story, what happened to us should not be taken seriously.
Diran
you write:
From Naess: “The cause for justice is badly served by insisting that the Ottoman Christians were 100% innocent and the Muslims 100% guilty.”
So saying, Naess finally–finally!– gets to his real point.
Comment: You are too quick in determining my real point. My point is that when for instance VTiger says that “I will repeat again that all mass graves found & surely in the future that will be found will be of Armenian & Assyrian mass graves” this reveals an illegitimate reluctance to admit that Armenians also committed mass killings. Even Taner Akcam writes in his “A Shameful act” that “attacks on Muslim villages had become commonplace even before the Van uprising”(p.216 in the paperback edition). I mentioned other sources. How can one be sure about empirical findings in the future? For me this attitude is disquieting, similar to the attitude of Turks that, in spite of some exceptions, was typical in Erzurum when I was there.
You write:
I would say this in response: In a question of international law and historical truth, the cause of justice is poorly served by superficially dwelling on the supposed moral characteristics of two different groups of people.
Comment: I never said anything about moral characteristics of peoples (or did I?), and I dont hold that one meaningfully can assert anythoing about this
you write.
comment:
The factuality of the Armenian Genocide does not rest on the supposed moral purity of the Ottoman Armenians, nor is it undermined by their moral imperfections.
comment: Yes, of course I agree. My comment was directed at the apparent reluctance of several participants here who appear to have a great reluctance to admitting that Armenians also committed mass murder in these years.
you write:
That idea is a complete fallacy and red herring. The question is one of history and state policy.
comment:
Yes, of course! Only for curiosity’s sake: what did I say that indicated to you that I wantede to reduce the question of fact and legal justice to a question of something like who are the “good” and the “bad” guys?
By the way, my whole preoccupatuion with this styarted with my being disgusted with the ones who arranged a conference on Erzurum. We may disagree on many things, but let us not invent disagreements where there are none.
but let me add, in fairness, that the argument “surely the Turks would have buried any Turkish victims of massacres. So we dont expect to see any mass graves of Turks” is a valid one. I cannot give an answer. And unless there is a commission of neutral researchers that dig up the remains from this terrible period, we cannot know if what is portrayed as Turkish skeletons are not in reality Armenian or Assyrian skeletons.
Maxime
you mention that one can identify skeletons by comparing DNA with alleged relatives. But has this ever been done in actual practice?
Regarding mass graves,Turkey has been the finder,judge & executioner.Armenians nor international neutral bodies were ever permitted to participate in these excavations.NEVER!
As you saw the mercenary immediately mentioned that these were Muslim mass graves by naming few…laca (Erzurum), Yesilyayla (Erzurum), Timar (Erzurum), Oba (Igdir), Hak Mehmed (Igdir), Subatan (Kars), Zeve (Van)…
Of course Turkey with this kind of actions further humiliates itself.The locals where these mass graves are found know very well the history & the stories behind it.
These mass graves are the Armenian Auschwitz.
Don’t add anything Denialist: we have more than enough of your denialist drivel.
First and foremost apologize to the progeny of Armenian Genocide survivors @AW for insulting them on the pages of ArmenianWeekly.
ARMENIAN Weekly. ARMENIAN, ARMENIAN, ARMENIAN: got that Turcophile Norwegian Denialist ?
You think we are going to forget you called us “inbreeding” ?
You think we are going to forget you insulting the sacred remains of our ancestors ? Like Hell we are.
Never Forget, Never Forgive.
(thanks to my Jewish buddies for teaching me how to deal with Denialists)
In reply to Kerim. It is good that you have taken an interest to learn more about the Armenian Genocide and “reading on it very briefly”. You must seek the truth, educate yourself then you will understand why Armenians care so much. DENIAL HURTS!!! The very fact that you can be so indifferent brings tears to my eyes and deep pain to my heart. You can not understand it because it did not happen to you. I wish that there could be a doubt, that we could possibly be wrong, that it there were just massacres. My ancestors, great, great grandparents come from Turkish Armenia. We have an ancient history with western Armenia. My grandmother told me that there were good Turks that tried to help, even though to do so meant they would be killed. But there is no exaggeration about the well planned barbaric destruction of a race of people. There is no doubt. It really, really happened! And to say it didn’t, or maybe it wasn’t as bad as it was, is truly grossly insulting and damaging to me personally and to those were slaughtered. Germany was wise and intelligent enough to accept what they did during WWII. Why is it so hard for Turkey to accept what happened and not deny the genocide? Then the healing process will begin. Live and let live. What’s so hard about that? You stated, “Armenia is our enemy”. At one time during the Soviet period, Armenians and Azeris were friendly neighbors. Extreme nationalist fervor took over and look where we are today. History is repeating itself with countless genocides taking place. When will it stop?
Naess: “Comment: You are too quick in determining my real point.”
Diran: Mr. Naess, you were much too late in making it.
dear mr. Diran (if that is your name),
I believe we have not discussed earlier person to person (I dont know if you are a man or a woman, my knowledge of armenian names is weak), so I am a little uncertain about what to say.
yes, I am often too late in making my main points. I prefer to line up a number of facts I believe in and then – implicitly – ask my interlocutor to draw the consequences. But certainly – I sometimes overdo it….
but on the other hand, if you focus too much on main points – either in your intepretation of others or in your own messages, you run the risk of excessive repetition, which is the best way to kill any fruitful debate
Diran
I am sorry for the way I answered you. I must have had a bad day
But Avery,
I answered your point about “inbreeding” and “dispose of” several times. For me your accusations and demands for apologies on this point seem almost childish.
And since you only deny to have received this KGB education in Baku, I conclude that you received it in Yerevan. Of course this does not make any big difference regarding my advice to you, that your way of arguing sometimes seems to be a reflection of the poorest kind of AD HOMINEM arguments used in the Soviet period. But then of course your access to and use of factual arguments is something else. In these cases I have no criticism
but Ragnar, you wrote this, did you not ?
{“And I insist on remembering that you said you graduated with honours on “pstychological warfare” from a KGB academy in Baku.”}
prove I said that: don’t try to weasel out of it.
and your answers about “inbreeding” and “disposed of” are unsatisfactory.
you were given many chances to come clean and apologize.
Like my Jewish buddies keep telling me:
“Never forget, Never forgive”.
Shalom. See you at the next post, Norwegian Turcophile Denialist friend.
When Turks and Azeris want to use the word, genocide, to describe a horrific act that took the lives of several hundred in the midst of war (Khojaly), we know they can use the word, but clearly don’t understand it at all. This gives me hope, because we now know the word is actually in their vocabulary. They just need to learn how to use it honestly and accurately, and not just for anti-Armenian propaganda purposes. The eradication of an entire ethnic group on land they have inhabited for 4000+ years, by a criminal government, was clearly genocide. How or why there can be any discussion about this is kind of ridiculous. It is a false issue that they’ve created to put doubt into the minds of people, as if those people are deaf, dumb and blind to historical reality. Grow up Turkey. Grow up Azerbaijan. A lie repeated a thousand times does not become the truth, no matter what anyone says.
There are some mysteries regarding the posts here. Khatchig Mouradian said to me a couple of years ago that the AW is understaffed and maybe there are some different people that run intermittently to see to the posts sent in, decide if some of them use abusive language or prevent them from being presented officially for somew reason or other. But it is strange that posts sometimes comes in a different order than the one they were sent in. My comment to Avery was – to take an example – sent in earlier than my excuse to Diran. But here it comes afterwards. Possibly the editor might explan a little about the practice.
The editor of AW or anybody else that works @AW owes neither you nor me nor anybody else an explanation about anything they do or how they do it.
We have discussed this before many times: you yourself admitted, if I recall correctly, that AW provides the best Comments forum. That is one reason you do not post @Hurriyet or @TodaysZaman as much as you post @AW: Correct ?
I rarely see you post at either of those two Turkish sites, yet you are here @AW regularly and are complaining ?
Are you paying for anything that you expect a, quote, ‘explanation’ ?
I vaguely remember you complaining about the poor Comments capability of HDN and TZ: am I correct ?
Isn’t it strange for someone who is a Turcophile, who has publicly professed his love and infatuation for Turkey, and who visits and posts @AW for the sole purpose of Denying the AG – in a very sophisticated way – to ask for explanations from ArmenianWeekly ?
You get a free forum to spew out your disgusting Armenian Genocide denialist venom at a site called ArmenianWeekly – and you have the gall to ask for an explanation ?
You don’t like it, start your own blog and run it the way you want it.
Don’t complain about ANYTHING Armenian – dear Turkophile Denialist guest.
Karekin,
I lectured on semantics and the use of words for new students in weekly courses over 6-10 weeks for almost six years. It was neither in Baku nor in Yerevan, but in Oslo and other Norwegian cities.
The main difference is between rhetorics and what we call scientific language which is also the language of democracy taken as informed consent and dialogue to reach consensus. The Armenians adopted the word genocide in the 1940-ies if I am not mistaken – I refer to Khatchig’s lecture in Oslo in 2008. And God knows you had good reason to. For you it expresses your terrible trauma and the crimes committed against you. But when the word is used without any qualification or explanation the listeners will hear different things. I note that the group of more than twenty Turkish-born historians and intellectuals made a joint statement to the Royal Liberary of Copenhagen in january this year regarding their plans to let the Turkish Embassy arrange an “answer” exhibition to the exhibition on the Armenian Genocide made by the Armenian representative. This is a startingly new phenomenon because many of the undersigned disagree on many matters, for instance if the word “genocide” is appropriate to use. But in this declaration they are unanimous and they do not use the word “genocide”. I take it that this is the reality of the rhetorical situation today. A tacit common understanding between Armenian and Turkish activist to downplay the use of the term “genocide” is emerging, albeit in various forms, for instance in the fdorm of a policy of “making a priority of reparations rather than genocide recognition”. I see the whole thing as a debate which all the time has been more concerned with rhetorics and politics than with clarificatrion. Now some will say that clarification ois for the pedants. But I will hold 1) that the work to clarify if what happened to the Armenians was genocoide in the sense that the ittihadist leaders committed genocide according to the Conventions and recent “precedences”, must go on. Turkey and Armenia must bering the case to the ICJ. 2) a politicised “solution” by way of compromise will leave a lot of people angry and let down in both camps. I have contact with Turks who bitterly complain about Erdogan, Baskin Oran and Kemal Cicek together orchestrating a rotten compromise. Nobody will be served by a “solution” which simply means that some peoiple in high places have decided what to do. Without genuine argumentation – answering all objections – not simply clubbing people down with political realities or opprobria – there will be no real closure and no real reconciliation.
Ragnar,
When the term Genocide is used the whole world understands the Armenian Genocide first & foremost.
The Armenian Genocide is absolutely not for Turkish bazaar bargain & if this is a new phenomenon for you it is not for us.It has been an insult & it continues to be an insult.
Simply denial of THE GENOCIDE is the continuation of the Genocide.
@ VTiger: a reading for you.
http://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/conseil-constitutionnel/francais/les-decisions/acces-par-date/decisions-depuis-1959/2012/2012-647-dc/version-en-anglais.114649.html
why don’t read up on how to do DNA analysis that determine a victim’s religion ?
no need to provide links for you: you are supposed to be a scholar; you can Goole.fr it: Yes ?
also, haven’t your read TodaysZaman enough already ? When are you going to sue them for outing you as an Intelligence Agent, which you claim is allegedly a false accusation.
Mercenary,you never see the big picture as we do.For us this is just a small hick up,spilled milk.From being Genocided,refugee,we are fighting in the highest echelons.How much was this issue got covered in the international media let alone the Turkish media?How many millions of Turks who were unaware & became aware of it?
In a very short period of time we transferred our struggle inside Turkey.At present & every single day that passes the Genocide & Armenian issues are written & discussed in the Turkish media.
We need people like you.It is helping our cause even if you’re a 3rd rated academic.The more you oppose us the more coverage & recognition we get.
Watch out for your post & position as without it you’ll starve.
dear Avery,
my points about the AW are made to make it even better as a forum. It would be even better with a more active moderator function, to my mind. Regarding discussions with Turks I now have several timeconsuming and interesting discussions. So I have made the Turkish papers a lower priority. When posts switches places I am confused. Regarding your points regarding “inbred” and “disposed of”, se my earlier explanation
respectfully
Ragnar
and Avery, whether it was in Baku or Yerevan cannot be so important, can it? Of course I said it. The main point is if you were educated in psychological watrfare or not. This is a comment on your style as you SOMETIMES show it. But I admire your up to date accounts of factual matters.
VTiger
you write:
When the term Genocide is used the whole world understands the Armenian Genocide first & foremost
comment: I know this is your view and I respect it. My point is that there is a movement in quite wide circles to relegate the politics of genocide recognition to a second place in the quest for justice for Armenians. I see the problems in this.
Ragnar,you have become the muezzin of that ‘wide circle’ which is only a Turkish government one.If you see problems for the Armenians then what are you doing except for jumping on two ropes & further muddying the waters?
We know very well how to remember,respect & sing the praises of your Norwegian compatriots similar to Dr. Fridtjof Nansen & Mrs. Bodil Biorn.
However you will be forgotten.
As said before the Armenian Genocide is absolutely not for Turkish bazaar bargain & if this is a new phenomenon for you it is not for us.It has been an insult & it continues to be an insult.
Simply denial of THE GENOCIDE is the continuation of the Genocide.
Avery
I cite from Maxime Gauin’s post of february 21:
If there are small Kurans close to the skeletons, you can assume that the people were Muslims. If, in addition, you make blind DNA tests with the supposed grand-children of the victims, and if the tests are positive, you can say without doubt that the victims were Muslims. unquote.
Read the last phraze. it is not a case of determining religion from skeletons, is it?
What’s going on here, Avery? Are they no longer using their scientific method of measuring the diameter of the skull? Do you know who the “supposed grandchildren” are that naess is writing about? If you don’t have positive identity of a person, how do you “suppose” who their children are, let alone suppose who their grandchildren are?. They should go back to using the tape measure. Do they mean that the DNA of Armenians who were forced into conversion has now been changed into Muslim DNA? What about all those little Armenian orphan children whose mothers and fathers they murdered? After the Turks converted them, did those children then have Muslim DNA? Do their “supposed grandchildren” now also have Muslim DNA?
There is another thing I don’t understand here, Avery, – how can “small Kurans” not have disintegrated after so many years? What were they written on? I make hand-made paper. I am extremely careful about my choice of plant material. I make sure everything in the vat is ph neutral. I size my paper with great care. I do everything possible to ensure longevity, but no matter what I do, I know it won’t last buried in the ground, or “scattered close to skeletons.” It will decay, just as mortal flesh will. I write on this paper with the best quality inks modern science can produce, and yet, I know that my words will not survive. It’s why we preserve works on paper in tightly controlled archives. We don’t scatter them close to skeletons and expect to dig them up 100 years later.
And, about the comment: “My point is that there is a movement in quite wide circles to relegate the politics of genocide recognition to a second place in the quest for justice for Armenians. I see the problems in this.”
Avery, do you know of any person who gives a damn about the problem any Genocide denier might have with how we choose to deal with recognition and accountability? Please bring me up-to-date on this. I somehow thought it was none of his business.
Right you are Perouz: excellent observations.
VTiger already discussed the implausibility of the supposed Kurans being found next to the supposed Muslim skeletons on religious grounds.
Also, if I recall correctly, VTiger had links to some photographs where the supposed ‘Muslim’ skeletons were found, with diggers standing around.
And you also correctly bring up the implausibility of Kurans surviving buried underground and to be ‘discovered’ more or less identifiable as Qurans decades later.
This is from above posts: { “Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918.” } (Gauin, originally in HDN 5/16/2012)
So these supposed Qurans were buried in soil for about 70 years or more. The victims were reduced to skeletons. But the Qurans somehow survived.
Plastics were not invented at that time, so everything was made from natural, biodegradable material. Qurans printed on plastic stock could survive buried for centuries in fact.
But old paper ? Really ?
And, yeah, everything these two denialists are building their skeleton-castle on is based on ‘supposed’. Let us take a look at what the definition of ‘supposed’ is:
Supposed: adjective
1a : pretended
b : alleged
2a : held as an opinion : believed; also : mistakenly believed : imagined
b : considered probable.
Merriam Webster
Supposed: adj
1. (prenominal) presumed to be true without certain knowledge.
2. (prenominal) believed to be true on slight grounds; highly doubtful.
Online dictionary by Farlex
Ragnar:
{“. If, in addition, you make blind DNA tests with the supposed grand-children of the victims, and if the tests are positive, you can say without doubt that the victims were Muslims”}
No, you cannot. All you can say is that the supposed grand-children were the supposed grandchildren of the supposed victims. Understand ?
You cannot tell by DNA tests a person’s religion. You are assuming they have the same religion as their parents or grand-parents. But a DNA test is scientifically unable to determine one’s religion. I know the subtlety is lost on you, but it’s OK: as I have written before, Denialitis has very serious mental side affects on those who suffer from it.
There is no medicinal cure at this time. There is the ‘Ernst Zundel cure’, but it is still in development, not ready for distribution.
And I have a pretty good idea why your French denialist buddy chose to use the term ‘Muslim’ in his construct: he knew if he based his manufactured discovery and supposed proof on ethnos, he would immediately run into a conundrum. It should be clear even to you what that conundrum would be, since you are an educated, intelligent man.
Regarding the Qurans that were supposedly discovered on supposed Muslim skeletons: let us see what publicly available information says about handling the Quran. (if Muslim practitioners find this to be incorrect, please let us know).
[A. Etiquettes of handling the Noble Qur'an
The classical scholars of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l Jama'at (The Four Schools of Thought) are unanimous in their interpretation of the above verses that a person has to be spiritually and physically clean (a Muslim in a state of ritual puity, i.e. in wudu) in order to handle the Arabic book of the Qur'an (mushaf).
What follows is the thoughts of Imam Muhammad ibn Ahmad Qurtubi (Rehmatullahi alaih) who was a great Qur'an Scholar and renowned exegisate of the Qur'an al-kareem.
3. It is unlawful (haraam) for someone not in the state of ablution to carry a Qur'an, even by a trap or in a box , or touch it, whether its writing, the spaces between its lines, its margins, binding, the carrying strap attached to it, or the bag or box it is in. States Allah the Supreme in “None may touch it, except with ablution.” [Waqiah -79] It is however permissible to carry books of Sacred Law (Shari’ah), Hadith, or Qur’anic tafsir, provided that most of their text is not Qur’an. ]
Now, I am not a Muslim, so don’t really know if Muslims go about their lives carrying little Qurans on their persons.
But the admonition above clearly forbids it, unless in the state of ablution.
Are practicing Muslims always in a state of ablution while going about in their normal lives ? I didn’t think so.
So why would Armenians who supposedly massacred the supposed Muslims bother to bury little Qurans with the supposed victims ?
There are many instances where the children of Armenian families who perished in the genocide were taken in by the local Turkish and Kurdish families and raised as Muslims. I suppose it’s possible for the graves be those of Armenians and a DNA match made by a descendent of an Armenian orphan. All it would take is a somewhat of a match of one person and declare the graves as those of Muslims. I suppose we would need to see the DNA test results to be sure. That’s assuming we can trust those who made the tests.
We know from 3rd parties that there were massacres of Armenians. Does anyone really think that the Turkish government will openly admit and acknowledge the existence of Armenian mass graves from 1915? Based on how the Turkish government has lied about Armenian history, the answer would be no.
Random Armenian,I had commented about the mass graves few times…”Turks & Kurds were the ones left on my confiscated butchered homeland.And if there were any killings of Turks they would have given them a proper Muslim burial immediately afterwards.They would have very well known wherever the killings had taken place”.
Avery,the here below is the site that Perouz herself had provided & my comments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79mXzUrxVHs
Mercenary & Ragnar,watch this clip provided by Perouz & pause exactly at 0.50 second & inspect the photograph properly & see this mass grave & ask yourselves the questions:Is this how Muslims bury their dead with the onlookers & diggers pausing for this photo shoot?Do you see an imam?Do you see anybody crying over the dead?Is there any shrouded corpse as how Muslims bury their dead?Don’t Muslims bury their dead individually?
You Armenian fundamentalists just have to stick to a certain version and that makes it very difficult for you to reconsider a thesis which is demanded by your bosses and your internal loyalties in the flock (joke: I only try to ape you!)
Congratulations!
You have raised serious doubts in me about Muslim mass graves. Of course I am hampered by my denialist psyche, but with your assistance I hope to overcome it, but still:
- it is hardly credible that Korans would last that long if the bodies were reduced to skeletons.
- Avery has provided Koran citations that indicate trhat muslims did not carry small Korans about with them, BUT. the actual practices may often deviate quite a lot, som more needs to be known on this point
-if Turks were massacred by Armenians in the last stages of Armenian resistance in 1918 to the troups of Karabekir, and the Turks immidiately afterwards retook the area in question, isn’t it very strange that the Muslims did not bury these dead in the ordinary way.(Or was there a fear of contamination which actually played a role in these matters?) This should be answered by the Muslims in Cinis and neighbouring villages because they allegedly personally knew those who allegedly were killed by Andranik in march 1918(BUT if Muslims were indiscriminately killed as part of the Russian offensive in January 1916, (read Holquist) and the bodies dumped in mass graves and the Turks only retook it in 1918, isn’t it more conceivable that these bodies would not be dug up again? In Erzurum I was told that the victims were unearthed only in the 1970-ies.
-No doubt there exists a true version about this.
Maxime -
I believe you should say something
Ragnar,watch this clip provided by Perouz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79mXzUrxVHs
& pause exactly at 0.50 second & inspect the photograph properly & see this mass grave & ask yourselves the questions:Is this how Muslims bury their dead with the onlookers & diggers pausing for this photo shoot?Do you see an imam?Do you see anybody crying over the dead?Is there any shrouded corpse as how Muslims bury their dead?Don’t Muslims bury their dead individually?
Also pause at 05.20 & 07.11 & inspect.However better for you is to watch the whole clip in its entirety.
Contamination?Watch the whole video & you’ll get your question’s answer.
Your quote:(BUT if Muslims were indiscriminately killed as part of the Russian offensive in January 1916, (read Holquist) and the bodies dumped in mass graves and the Turks only retook it in 1918, isn’t it more conceivable that these bodies would not be dug up again?
No it is not conceivable as every relative wants to find his lost one & give him a proper burial and the Muslims have done that as they stayed behind in our homeland.
Contamination?Give me a break 21st century fully fed living in comfort Ragnar.Put yourself in the shoes of the ones who have lost their loved ones & see what you’d do.
Have you heard about the photo collection of John Elder?Go to this site
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_elder_view.html?photo=graveyard2.jpg&collection=elder&caption=Graveyard+at+Igdir
& check & there you will see photos of Igdir where the deranged mercenary says it is Muslim mass grave.Can you see what the mercenary & his masters are trying to do?Something that is photographed & archived ages ago as Armenian mass graves claiming it as Muslim?
See the 3rd grade academic/mercenary’s comment in this same article which I have copied it for you here below:
Maxime Gauin
February 21, 2013 Alaca (Erzurum), Yesilyayla (Erzurum), Timar (Erzurum), Oba (Igdir), Hak Mehmed (Igdir), Subatan (Kars), Zeve (Van)…
Also see Armin T. Wegner’s photo collection with many Armenian mass graves & James Nazer’s book, “The First Genocide of the 20th Century: The story of the Armenian Massacres in text and pictures” .Go to this site:
http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_Photos
VTiger
I see a number of bodies in a row in white garments. There are some people standig close to them to the left, and a number of people in the background. The other photos are pictures of terrible suffering, dead people and emaciated people. What did you expect me to conclude from this photo? You must explain more
Maxime,
maybe you are offended because they call you mercenary, and do not want to answer for this reason. You have been silent quite some time. I think you have to make a choice whether you believe dialogues like these have a value or not. For my own sake I believe they have.
{“I see a number of bodies in a row in white garments. “}
No you don’t: I will try to be respectful in explaining why is it that you see ‘white garments’, and not what is actually there.
Because of the age of the picture and the photographic technology at the time, the contrast between white and black and shades of grey is not as sharp as in today’s photography. If you look carefully, you should be able to see light colored and dark colored clothing.
Plus uncovered heads of the dead: a No-No for Muslims (as I understand it).
I will post a link to what Muslim dead prepared for burial look like (it is NOT graphic).
http://www.rferl.org/content/syria-killings-houla-un-ban-ki-moon-annan/24594389.html
If AW decides to flush it, just search for pics on Google of Muslims prepared for burial.
According to my understanding of the ritual, they must be completely shrouded in clean cloth, preferably white.
Since you know so much about Turks and profess love and infatuation for Turkey, I am surprised you do not know.
Ragnar,read again my comment & your questions are already explained there.
I’m the one who calls him deranged,3rd class academic/mercenary as he is.
Avery,
The mass grave photo is from 1895 massacres of Armenians in Erzrum.
The here below is the site:
http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/hamidian.php
The following is written under the photo:
Erzerum, Armenian
highlands in eastern Anatolia. Burial of the victims of the October 30, 1895 massacres of the Armenians during the region of Sultan Abdul Hamid II.
These massacres from 1894 to 1896 took the lives of over 200.000 to 300.000 victims.
(Informations and Dokumentationszentrum Armenien, Berlin)
AGBU, April 1999, p. 24
Here is more information about Palu. I was given this by the writer himself, so, it is primary documentation, written and published in the early 1930s. iI will be republished in English later this year.
“Onnig asked for news of what came and went in the outside world. I told him that a caravan of women and children arrived in Palu almost every day. The sick and elderly were murdered on the Euphrates River bridge, their bodies thrown into the river. The rest of the caravan was exiled to Diyarbakir.
“Which regions are the Armenians being brought here from?” asked Onnig.
“Most of the caravans are coming from Kghi and Garin, but I have also seen small caravans coming from the villages of Palu.”
“Are there any Armenians left in the city?”
“There are no Armenian men left in the city. Countless corpses are spread out all over the city, as well as on the shores of the Euphrates River. All the Turks in the city, without exception, have taken one or two boys or women into their homes as servants. There are about 100 Armenian women and children staying in the churchyard. One or two of them die every day. Their bodies rot in the yard with a horrible stench. Himet tchavoush, Shavulat, and Onbashiand polis have all married Armenian girls they keep subject to themselves. As well as these three houses, there are another ten families.”
VTiger
Thank you for your information. I will go to the Elder Collection, and I agree with you that one must look out for frauds. The alleged mass graves of Muslims and the other mass graves found should be investigated by independent experts like Halacoglu and David Gaunt planned to do with the case of Xirabebaba village in Mardin, but the project was in all probability stopped by local jandarma and Turkish authorities.
About the fear of contamination, see what Yervant Odian writes about people throwing sick relatives into the mass grave for fear of contamination of typhus. Possibly you are the one who is living comfortably in the 21 century and project your ideas of honour into the situation of people who were just desperate to survive and got demoralized to the extent that they committed acts completely contrary to accepted morality.
Ragnar,Halacoglu an independent expert?Please do not drink & comment.
As for contamination look at the photos at the sites that I earlier provided.Put yourself in the shoes of the ones who have lost their loved ones & see what you’d do.
Ragnar,your part comment:
“he alleged mass graves of Muslims and the other mass graves found should be investigated by independent experts like Halacoglu and David Gaunt planned to do with the case of Xirabebaba village in Mardin, but the project was in all probability stopped by local jandarma and Turkish authorities.”
“independent experts like Halacoglu”????
The former head of Turkish Historical Society an infamous Genocide denialist an independent expert?
Enough of your mockery.This is far too far insulting.
Ragnar,this is my 3rd reminder to you & you’ve gone silent.I’m still waiting for your clarification about your here below quote:
“mass graves found should be investigated by independent experts like Halacoglu and David Gaunt”
I repeat my question for the 3rd time:
“independent experts like Halacoglu”????
The former head of Turkish Historical Society an infamous Genocide denialist an independent expert?
Can there be independent Armenian experts?
I’m waiting for your clarification & if I do not get it I will throw this comment around you.
Regarding Armenian mass grave of Xibalba(notXirabebaba) read the here below:
Mass Burial of Possible Armenian Genocide Victims Discovered in Turkey
November 4, 2006 – 16:18 AMT
PanARMENIAN.Net – Turkish Gendarmerie has instructed local villagers of a southeastern region to keep silence about a mass grave, discovered on October 17, that might contain remains of Armenian Genocide victims. According to a Kurdish newspaper published in Turkish Ulkede Ozgur Gundem, villagers from Xirabebaba (Kuru) were digging a grave for one of their relatives when they came across to a cave full of skulls and bones of reportedly 40 people. The Xirabebaba residents assumed they had uncovered a mass grave of 300 Armenian villagers massacred during the Genocide of 1915. They informed Akarsu Gendarmerie headquarters, the local military unit, about the discovered remains. Turkish army officers, according to the Kurdish newspaper, instructed the villagers to block the cave entrance and make no mention of the remains buried in it. The officers said an investigation would take place. The newspaper reported on the developments and the Turkish military’s attempt to hide the news. Journalists, who had arrived to obtain more information, were denied access to the cave.
As the mass burial made news, local Gendarmerie made another visit to the villagers. The latter were pressed to report the name of the person who leaked the mass burial discovery to the press. The villagers were warned not to show anyone directions to the cave. The victims of the mass grave, according to Sodertorn University History Professor David Gaunt, are most likely the 150 Armenian and 120 Assyrian males from the nearby town of Dara (now Oguz) killed on June 14, 1915, reports Asbarez.
http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/world/news/19883
Can you see what they do to our mass graves?
Now compare the 3rd class supposed academic/mercenary’s comment of “there no Armenian mass graves”.Shame on you!
I am going to a print exhibition opening this weekend. The works of two professors in printmaking will be on display. Printmakers have a deep interest in the paper they work on. If they don’t make it themselves, they want to know the fibre, ph, sizing used, country of origin etc. And always, they are interested in the permanence of the dyes or inks used on them.
I am going to tell them all about “kurans” being found scattered around skeletons as reported on this site. I think these professors might want to let their print making students know about the comments made about Muslim buried books, or the claimed survival of paper that is exposed to the elements in the presence of rotting flesh. A student may decide to write on this nonsense in a final essay as powerful evidence of how the inherent properties of paper can even expose the deceit of genocide denying countries. I will refer them to this site for additional information. This is an A+ essay topic. Of course, nothing will ever beat the tape measurement science.