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Why do you guys feel so celebratory when congressmen beholden to your votes and money say and do what you want them to say? It is like celebrating that the government official I have bribed does as asked. Lobbysts like ANCA is a living proof of the kind of deficiencies American democracy has: a small vocal minority hijacking a government policy on a topic of interest to that minority, at the cost of the majority. True, Karabak has little value to an American either way, but it is no secret that if not Armenian lobby US would be all over Azerbaijan in terms of overall national interests, because of European energy security, common interest vis-a-vis Iran, countering Russian influence in Caucasus, etc. What does Armenia have to offer to US? Nothing. And please don’t waste your breath on “Because Armenia is a demoracy, is a superior moral country etc.” In international politics, there are only common interests. And regarding Caucasus, the Armenian lobby in the US has distorted the Congresses clear view to what is more imporant to US national interests.
Sour grapes Kerim:
You cannot stand the fact that Azerbaijan’s US$ billions are being blunted by our grassroots efforts at very low cost.
US has no national interests in South Caucasus. If it did, it wouldn’t stand by and watch as their ‘ally’ Georgia – under the leadership of their own neocon plant Saakashvili – was crushed by Russia.
And now Georgia is gradually returning to its normal, traditional relationship with Russia.
Soon Azerbaijan will be completely isolated from its big brother Turkey. And Russia and Iran will dismember Azerbaijan the minute it allows an attack on Iran from its bases. Georgia will block any help to Azeris through its territory under Ivanishvili.
Azerbaijan has no value to the West other than oil, which peaked around 2010 or so and is running out. It is nothing more than a petrol station disguised as a country. Azeri leadership is already in panic. Remember the hysterical attack Aliyev launched on BP ? Natural gas cannot replace oil: the world runs on oil.
Bias, bias, bias
Why? Because US congressmen are among the most powerful and influential politicians (if not individuals) in the world. That’s why dozens of foreign nations and diaspora members spend so much money lobbying.
kerim does not understand or conveniently overlooks that Armenian MAIN ISSUE IS NOT NAGORNYI KARABAGH(<ARTSAKH)but…..GENOCIDE RECOGNITION BY GREAT TURKEY…
restitutions/compensations for blood SHED…Artsakh is for 25 yrs already Independent Republic. We want above issue to be resolved….
The world owes Justic e to armenians-yes including great Turkey…
so don´t get disturbed when NK is sue is discussed in D.C. or anywhere else.
Tryu to get over the wrong assumption that Armenian-Turkish protocols will be excersized leaving aside OUR HUGE LOSSES in Western Armenia….
We were brutally EVICTED FROM ANCESTRAL HOMES,LANDS from VAN,Bitlis, Ezinchan, kars, Ardahan, igidir mava………so think in that diorection.
Nakhijevan is also my MOTHERLAND and hundreds of thousands as well.
prepare yourself for above.NK is ¨¨eliminiziman getti¨¨¨my turkish ,please excuses me is very weak,i speak iranian turkish which the MODERN EUROPEAN TURKS DO NOT APPROVE OF.Sorry for that..that means went out of our hands………
So take it easy you have plenty of LAND ,OIL GO ENJOY IT…. .
Avery, you say Azerbaijan has no national intersts concerns for US other than oil. Well, true, but that is one big “Other than.” Oil and energy security are big factors in international politics. Dimissing that glibly is rather naitve. Of course, US cares very little about Azerbaijan “otherwise.”
I like this kind of conversation on politics (versus name-calling), and do welcome your comments back… Now, for Georgia. I would not say Georgia means zero to US. Instead it is worth much less than what the silly Saakashvili thought. Russia called US bluff. But Russia did not go all the way. Why? Because that was a red line for US.
As for Azb, I think it is worth much more to the US than Georgia is. Energy security, again, is no small thing. Azb can help Europe reduce its dependence on Russian energy, which can be used to blackmail Europe into not following the US suit on matters important to US.
As for Iran, yes, if the war started, things CAN turn out very badly for Azb. But, ironically enought, Russia can actually be more of a protection for Azb in that regard than Turkey/West. There are still post-Soviet solidarity, plus the last thing Russia would want is to have Iranian Islamism at its doorstep in Dagestan (i.e., letting Iran take over Azerbaijan).
The point is, yes, Iran war can hurt Azb badly. But we won’t have a choice to be neutral. One, Iran is an existential threat to Azb (and its regime). Average Iranian thinks Azb to be stolen by Russia and want it back. By the way, they feel the same way about Armenia too. Other reasons too why we won’t stay neutral. they will bomb us, fine. But don’t overestimate Iran too much. people thought the same thing about Iraq before it fell apart like dominos. And remember that there are about 25m Azeris in Iran, which will be more than happy if Iran fell apart.
What it means for Armenia. There is 50/50 change that the war with Iran will greatly benefit Azerbaijan, even putting it in a position to get Karabak back as a pay-back for its contribution with Iran. I know some Armenian political analysts are worried about this possibility. The potential savior for Armenia, again ironically enough, would be Russia. But the question is, when things get really really messy, with US, israel part of the equation, plus even Turkey, would Russia want to get involved on your side? True, they wont let Armenia disappear (and that is not on the agenda so to speak anyways), but it won’t kill Russia to stand by and let the chips fall wherever they may in Karabak.
Why would mostly Sunni Dagestanis welcome Iran when the mostly Shia Azerbaijanis won’t even do so? You’re right though that Azerbaijan has always been a buffer state for the Russian/Soviet government, just like Belarus was back in the early 20th century. And both were largely made into “nations” through Soviet nationality policies, which is why Belarus can’t separate their nationhood from its Soviet origins and why Azerbaijan has produced laughable propaganda about everything from primordial Azerbaijani Caucasian Albanians to Azerbaijani “national poet” Nezami.
“but it won’t kill Russia to stand by and let the chips fall wherever they may in Karabak.”
I thought that’s what they were doing in the early 1990s, when they were telling Armenians not to advance further east of Karabagh?
Gaytzag, I understand that your big beef is with Turkey. Then take it with them. Hating us Azeris over Genocide is like hating Guatemala over what Mexico may have done. I know that Turkey is too strong for you to confront. So Azb has been, to some extent, a proxy for you, which explain, some not all of, the viciousness of the Azeri-Armenian conflict.
As for Karabak is gone, of course you would say that. But just think about it … In the same very paragraph you talk about the desire to get Western Armenia back from Turkey. Can I say the same thing to you then? “Forget it, it is gone. Get over it.” Of course, not.
Kerim Khan,
There are some donkeys left over since 1994 war, in Karabakh. Why don’t you get a visa from Artsakhi government, for a friendly visit!!
Avery,
This man Kerim,really likes to take conjectures and divide, unite, destroy , ally countreis to ea other.he should go teach diplomacy in Baki(sorry Baku).
How you wish to mislead others8not me9 that azeris could ber our friends again.Tell that to yours and other non Armenians.Armenians and iranians hav e very important thing in common.They know Turks,whether from Baku or from istanbulla. After the 2nd third time over, of Armneian massacres by axeris,no any Armenian in his her right mind will ever believe in your sermons.We are good as it is nowaway from ea other.You go grind your oxydated axe elsewhere(not referring to Safar(oghlu) axe here.Excuse the reference but it is true.Here few would believe in any kind of rapprochement with you people.
Why go far? see how Cypress Greeks broke off with Turkey…
Anyhow, keep imagining wars…there will not be any as long as the oil flows..when it stops,what in twenty yrs then by then We shall have seen a NEW COUNTRY between armenia and great Turkey called K U R D I S T A N andthat is not a prophecy ,it is in the press,North American press..
Witness Mousoul Oil in already near independent smaller kurdistan—-
So mucnh for now.Takle it easy, who knows maybe a MANTASHEV (MANTASHIAN) HEIR will come and claim the Baki Oilfields and few others(this is my hypothetic) go at it….WE don´t forget <THAT EASILY THAT FIVE FAMILIES THERE STARTED THE EXPLORATION AND PRODUCTION OF OIL IN LAST CENTURY WITH ref. to said you can look up in Oil magazines old ,rather very old…but there!!!!
Addendum,
Since many here do not have Sattelite T.V. and watch what goes on in BAku,Axerbaiojan,
A recent short documentary shows how CHILDREN IN AXERBAIJAN SCHOOLS ARE TAUGHT TO HATE ARMENIANS AND KILL THEM????????
tHIS OPENLY VERY OPENLY…….
I trust the T.v. channel in Ra will repeat that to show to our countrymen(those who are in slumber) to see what is being taught in neighbouring axerbaijan!!!
Hagop, if Stalin essentially created the Azeri nation, as you claim, then how about the ~20m Azeris living in Iran? Did he create their ethnicity too? Or how about the fact that prior to Soviets coming, there was actually a republic called Azerbaijan. Of course, don’t let facts get in the way …
As for your point about Albania, again, what do you you think happened to them? Did they dissipate into air? Obviously, they were not Armenian, because there was already a separate nation called Armenia at the time. Given that the DNA tests show that Azeri are a local Caucasian people speaking Turkic due to historical elite language domination, it is the more probable thing that they were Turkified.
You Armenians must finally come around and accept science as science when it comes to dreaming up the myth that Azeris are nomads from Mongolia (which I guess justifies in your minds their ethnic cleansing from their ancestral homes).
And here is science on Y-chromosome frequency (passed from father to son):
– Azeris: H (26%) and U (20%), followed by T (11%), J (11%), and HV (10%).
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/azeris.html
– Mongolians: C3 (38%), N3a (13%), O3el (11%), all of the above Azeri Y chromosomes (0%)
Source: Male Demography in East Asia: A North–South Contrast in Human Population Expansion Times (Genetics Society of America)
http://www.genetics.org/content/172/4/2431.full.pdf
As for Azerb being a buffer state for Russia, that actually could be more accurately said of Armenia than us. As part of the Turkmenchay agreement with Persia in 1828, Armenians were brought from Iran into Karabak. From the words of Griboyedov, the Russian general/diplomat overseeing the Iran affairs: “the Armenians have for the most part been settled on the lands of Muslim landowners… The settlers… are forcing out the Muslims… We also discussed at some length the work of persuasion to be done with the Muslims in order to reconcile them to their present hardships, which would not continue for a long time, and to rid them of the fear that the Armenians would maintain permanent possession of the lands to which they had once been allowed to move.”‘ Russian did the same with the war with Ottomons, settling the area with Armenians. Just listen to Putin giving speech in Armenia proudly confirming this historical fact: “Didn’t we say we will settle Armenians in Caucasus? Well, we did!” Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-1FK57LSik
All this does not mean there had been no Armenians before all this in Caucasus. There were, but in much smaller numbers. True, you may or may not have ruled the roost for 50-60 years 2000 years ago. But at least since the Karakoyunlu 14th century, that is, for the last 700 years, it has not been our ancestors’. As for what was happening before then, Persians had been the kind for a long time, not Armenians.
By the way, wasn’t there a monument in Karabak, celebrating the 150th year of their migration to Karabak. I am sure it is gone now.
In my exchanges with you on this website, I have never referred to Azerbaijanis as being from Mongolia. Not once.
Now let me begin by addressing your points. The Azerbaijani nation (as it is now understood by people living within Azerbaijan) was certainly created and nurtured by the Soviet government. Before then, the level of national consciousness among them was extremely low, which is why I compared them to Belarusians.
After several centuries of Perso-Turkic (mis)rule, it’s not too surprising that Armenia and Karabagh were emptied out of its Armenian population (especially the Shah Abbas’ violent deportations of Armenians from the Nakhichevan/Yerevan area. Their descendants still live in modern Iran, in a community within Isfahan known as New Julfa). Armenia can’t be a buffer state of Russia (it does not border Russia), but during the Soviet period that was certainly the job of Azerbaijan (as the Soviets even had plans to take over northern Iran). As for the Armenians who returned to their historic homelands once they were liberated by the Russians… can you blame them?
I did not say that Caucasian Albanians disappeared into thin air. What I said was that Azerbaijanis have produced laughable propaganda about them and this is true. The bitter truth is that the Caucasian Albanians were extremely Armenized; their alphabet was created by an Armenian, their religion was close to Armenian Apostolic Christianity, etc. Azerbaijan simply attempts to distort and misrepresent anything vaguely non-“Azerbaijani” within their territory as Caucasian Albanian. They even said the Georgian Davit Gareja monastery was Caucasian Albanian. These mechanisms were developed and perfected during the Soviet period. That is what I am trying to say.
“By the way, wasn’t there a monument in Karabak, celebrating the 150th year of their migration to Karabak. I am sure it is gone now.”
I’m not sure why Kerim hans are allowed to post their Azeri propaganda lies day after day. It would be OK for them to bring something new freshly developed in Sultan’s Aliyev’s “Ministry of Truth” but it is not OK to keep reposting the same lies after they were proven lies.
The lie about the monument is one of such examples. Yes, the monument is still there. The Azeri Turks just twist the truth a bit. The monument is dedicated to 150 years since Armenians of that village RETURNED to the homes built by their ancestors.
Azeri Turk propagandists know that very well but keep posting this nonsense conveniently replacing the word RETURN with “migration” and than applying it to entire Artsakh when in fact the monument sign talks ONLY about that particular village.
See, this is not about genetics. It is about a conflict between a nomadic Turkic civilization and native peoples of the lands they now occupy. For a Turk, migration is the only way known to them. For Armenians a return to their ancestors graves is the only way. When these two civilizations try to talk to each other or explain to the rest of the word they think that the other side thinks about the same (and the only way known to them) thing.
Nomadic ancestors of different Turkic tribes now commonly referred to as Azeri Turks had no graves. They could not maintain graves or any memories/emotional attachments to places. They were weak and constantly moving. They were in conflict with other nomadic tribes and had to escape bad climate changes in Central Asia. That’s what brought them to Armenia and Caucasian Albania.
The only way for them to stay in such areas inhabited by more technologically advanced sedentary civilizations was to destroy them with their “know-how” – genocide. They didn’t start it in 1915 – they started it right after they were forced out of their steppe comfort zone a thousand years ago. This is why you cannot find Albanians – they were massacred and forcibly assimilated.
On the other hand, Iranian civilization was able to resist for a long time and maintained its autonomy. Northern parts of Iran were ruled by Turks and only recently switched to Turkic language. These territories are called Iranian Azerbaijan. This is just a name for several provinces. Iranians who speak Turkic live there. They are different from the artificially created “Azerbaijanis” of Soviet Socialist Republic of Azerbaijan created by Stalin on the lands cleared from their native populations by Turkish expeditionary corps under the command of Nuri Pasha, brother of Enver Pasha.
First, many thanks again to the AW moderators for posting my “anti-Armenian” posts :) It is the best forum out there … although not really dedicated to Azeri-Armenian-Turkish relations per se, it is the best place for having conversations with “the other side.”
Hagop, thanks for the nuanced response to my comments. Right off the bat, I will concede these points:
– Yes, Soviets encouraged Azeri national identity in contradistinction to “Mulsim” or Turkic. But this did not mean the identity had not existed before; it just had had other salient points to it (e.g., Mulsim vs. Chrisian Caucasians, etc). Also, this does not mean that the ancestors of modern Azeris are newcomers. It is just that their identity has evolved, which is not a bad thing (a case in point, Germany).
– Yes, Azeris do sometimes go overboard in tagging Armenian churches as Albanian. The truth is, for a very long time, Azeris and Armenians have lived side-by-side in other people’s empires, Persian, Russian, etc. So they were intermingled. One village was Azeri/Muslim, the next Christian. In the past, I have confronted the sillines of some Azeri friends when they called ruined churches as Albanian (“look, it is unlikely that these bricks would still be where they are for over 1500 years. More likely, they are Armenian, from mere 100 years ago or so.) What happened with these Churches was that after the 1915-20 Armenian-Mulsim wars, these villages got consolidated, a lot of Armenians moved together in Stepanakert, while the Azeris there moved closer to their own majority to avoid mutual slaughter.
If you ask me, nothing that happened over 150 years ago should matter to the lives of people living today. Regardless of whether Karabak proper was Azeri or not, it has been Armenian for multiple generations. So let it be independent. But at the same time, the same dignity need to be granted to the people who lived in their adjacent districts. No family’s ancestral home should be occupied as a buffer zone.
Unfortunately, neither side will comprimise, and a second stage of the war will happen. And my other point that I have been driving here is that it is mistaken of Armenians to think that Stage 2 is going to be just a repeat of Stage 1. It will be a totally differnt beast. We may lose again, or may be not. What is for sure, it will a totally different ball game.
kerim,
You are trying hard to make the point that -to begin with now-the muslim and chritian …
First of all change that to read Moussavatist-Armenian!!!
For that is what it was….begining 1905 Tatar-Armenian skirmishes,rather tatars azeris Mousavatists going on a rampage agaisnt the Armenians there.
Then pick it up from there….
Karim Khan,
All your messages ended up with 2-nd stage war!! a typical Turkish empty threat like your corrupted Sultan!! I wonder how much you get paid, for dictating the oil man messages here!! Read below article before preparing, for 2-nd stage war with Artsakhi army!!
Iran’s homemade destroyer: Tehran launches 1400-ton battleship
@ GB, don’t flatter yourself … No one paying is anything to anyone to convince you of anything. Aliyev could not care less about what you or I believe. It is just a friendly (or I guess unfriendly) conversation. Just relax.
@Gaytzag, I personally find it repulsive to my own intellectual integrity to even assume that my side at a war was completely free of atrocity or guitl. In war, a lot of bad things happen. People like you on the other hand find it apparently very easy to think that your side was 100% the angels, and the other side devil. I find such simple-minded black-and-white worldview utterly repulsive, regardless of whether one is Armenian, Azeri, or Bulgarian.
Kerim,
You still try to evade the issue of (your) making it believe that the animosity is /was between Muslim and christian population….
Not true .It was and is between azeri-Musavatist and the Armenians…
indeed, armenians side was then led by the then ARF…and why not.
So one cannot generalize the war then and recent one as you wish to paint!!!
Karim Khan,
You already open you hand, that you are part of Sultan’s circle!! I have never mention Aliyev’s name here!! Are you looking for a 2-nd stage mental help from Artsakhi Armenians?? May be your Kurdish leader is smarter than you are…at least he knows how to fool Axeri people and rob billions with his Mehriban, and leave poor Axeris with empty high rise buildings in Baku!!