Azerbaijan’s leaders may not be aware that some of their incompetent underlings are causing great harm to the interests and reputation of their own country. President Aliyev should take a short break from issuing daily threats to Armenians and pay a little more attention to “enemies” within his own government.
To begin with, Azeri officials cannot count. Azerbaijan’s Foreign Ministry recently issued a “Black List,” disclosing the names of 335 individuals from 41 countries who had visited Karabagh (Artsakh) since 2005, “without Baku’s permission.” The list of persona non grata banned from visiting Azerbaijan includes parliament members, businessmen, journalists, entertainers, and other celebrities. They are all accused of violating Azerbaijan’s borders and disrespecting “the national sovereignty and territorial unity” of the country. The Ministry’s website sheepishly acknowledges that “Nagorno-Karabagh” is “temporarily out of the control of the Republic of Azerbaijan.”
Here are the number of visitors from each of the 41 countries who traveled to Artsakh “illegally,” according to Azerbaijan’s Foreign Ministry website:
Argentina (6), Australia (12), Austria (8), Belarus (1), Belgium (6), Bulgaria (5), Canada (6), Cyprus (3), Czech Republic (2), Denmark (2), Estonia (1), France (22), Georgia (11), Germany (22), Greece (2), Hungary (1), Iran (3), Ireland (2), Israel (1), Italy (24), Japan (1), Jordan (1), Latvia (2), Lebanon (1), Lithuania (6), Moldova (3), Netherlands (4), Poland (6), Russia (91), Romania (3), Serbia (2), Singapore (1), Slovakia (2), Spain (1), Sweden (1), Switzerland (7), Turkey (1), Ukraine (8), UK (13), Uruguay (5), and U.S. (36)
The Azeri count of 335 visitors to Artsakh since 2005 is way off. More than 16,000 tourists from 86 countries visited Artsakh in 2012 alone. The Azeri bureaucrats who prepared the “Black List” not only can’t count, but also can’t find publicly available information. While the name of every single tourist entering Artsakh is not known, Azerbaijan’s intelligence agents must be sleeping on the job. Surprisingly, none of Armenia’s leaders appears on Azerbaijan’s “Black List,” even though they make no secret of their periodic trips to Artsakh. Could it be that Azeri officials consider Artsakh to be a part of Armenia, and that’s why they do not blacklist Armenian citizens who go there?
Faulty mathematics and shoddy intelligence create additional problems for Azerbaijan. In the list of 335 names, there are people who have never been to Artsakh; others, like Jonas Hollander from Germany, have visited Artsakh and yet, their names are left off the “Black List.” Hollander posted the following sarcastic comment on his Facebook page, displaying a photocopy of his entry visa for “The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic”:
“Dear Azerbaijan, recently you have published a list of people who are not allowed to enter your country. I am fully offended and frustrated that my name was not included in your list. Please find attached evidence of my stay in Karabagh and correct the mistake as soon as possible. [Signed] Jonas Hollander, feeling sad and unimportant.”
To ridicule the ban on future travels to Azerbaijan, Armenians have set up a Facebook page titled, “I have been to Artsakh without permission.”
Here are some critical responses from prominent individuals who have been unfairly blacklisted:
– Marcelo Catelmi, chief editor of international policy at the prominent Argentine newspaper Clarin: “Publishing a blacklist is a despicable and barbaric act. It is a discriminatory method, historically used by dictators and tyrants who intend to punish divergent opinions in a brutal manner.”
– E. Wayne Merry, senior fellow for Europe and Eurasia at the American Foreign Policy Council, Washington, D.C.: “Azerbaijan harms only itself with its ‘black list’ of persons who have visited Karabagh. An intelligent policy for Baku would be to invite to Azerbaijan, immediately, every person from a third country who visits Karabagh.”
After it was revealed that the “Black List” had inadvertently left out the names of tens of thousands of Artsakh visitors over the years, Elman Abdullayev, chief of the press service of Azerbaijan’s Foreign Ministry, embarrassingly announced that the list would be updated and expanded. Hopefully, he does not forget to add my name to the “Black List,” especially since I wrote a column describing my memorable visit to Artsakh.
Armenian officials should help the Azeris by making public the names of everyone who’s had the good fortune of visiting Artsakh in the past 20 years, so that they will all be banned from entering Azerbaijan—leaving that country with fewer visitors, and isolating it from the rest of the civilized world!
Harut Sassounian
There is nothing funny about this list. The Azeri government, wisely, is making it costly for foreigners to visit Karabak. You want to go there? Fine. But don’t count on coming here. See, for people who are friends of Armenia, this prohibition indeed is useless. They did not like us Azeris anyways. The prohibition however will work on some, who do not care too much about Armenians or Azeris, but will weigh things like this: “Hmm, if I go give a concert in this tiny region and make $1m, later on I will be forgoing an opportunity at a much better deal in Baku.” The intent is to isolate Karbaak, like any good enemy would do to each other. Isolate and suffocate. E.g., where is the new airline service by the way? There is an airport but not airplane. O, wait, could it be that there is no functioning Armenian airline to begin with? The truth is, you did win in 1990s, but we are winning now. We are contributing to the depopulation of Armenia, its poor public finances due to an expensive arms race, and we are driving it into Russia’s orbit. We will make you a pay a very stiff price for your temporary victory, and will wipe it as soon as we somehow manage to convince Russia to stand aside, at least for a couple of months while we put to use our fancy Israeli toys, and some cool Russian ones too. Did you by the way hear about Putin’s high-profile visit to Baku? Which by the way came within weeks of Armenia’s deal with European Union. Is this a new beginning in Russia-Azeri relations? Will you be able to negotiate your fate with them, your true masters? Time will show. In the meantime, do please laugh off this list … it is just one element in our multi-pronged campaign to defeat the aggressor that has taken over 20% of our land.
Mr. karim, Azeris would be better off if Aliev the dictator spends those dollars on providing it’s people with food and shelter instead of wasting all these billions, which the Russians are milking from the azeris, on weapons which won’t do them any good because eventually these weapons will be used by the different sects in Azerbaijan in their quest for freedom and independence. Azerbaijan will have the same fate as those Arabic countries since dictatorships have no place in this world anymore.
karim, you have the same words as your Sultan dictating and preaching to his faithful oil Sheikhdom people every day!!Axerbaijan has nothing to offer to civilization, but destruction of others civilization…Armenia and Artsakh is part of European civilization!!
ttp://commonspace.eu/eng/news/6/id515
http://www.Artsakh.Org.UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_cemetery_in_Julfa
Karim
You are losing time “making us pay a very stiff price! for our temporary victory”. Wake up, stop day-dreaming about Artsakh and get a bit realistic. Artsakh is never going to be “Azeri territory”. It has never been. As for the celebrities who would weigh where they could make more money, Artsakh doesn’t need them, you may keep them for yourself. As of relations with Russia and the EU, Armenia is persuing a complimentary foreign policy using its unique strategic position and has developed exemplary relations with Russia, EU and Iran. On the internal front, yes, there are shortcomings in the area of governance, but our civil society has become much more active and change will come in due course. On the human rights issue Azerbaijan has a much worse record and ranks among the worst in the world.
You may of course go on with your silly list and continue to make yourself the object of ridicule all over the world.
Your land? Oh silly me, facts get in the way.
Zave, yes, Karabak is part of Azerbaijan. It is not my opinion, it is a fact of international law, as recognized by international organizations and ALL the countries of the world. No one, not even Armenia itself, recognizes Karabak as an independent state, nor as part of Armenia. True, you ALLEGE and CLAIM it as an Armenian land, but in the meantime, unless you change these facts, it is an Azeri land in any sense of international law.
And it has been an Azeri land for at least 1000 years if not more. A brief history
1) 1502-1756 Karabak was ruled by Safavid empire, which was headed by the Azeris
2) Gajar took it over after that (the real Persians), but Karabak itself was a khanate ruled by local Azeri/Turkic tribes.
3) In 1805, Russian took over, signing the Treaty of Kurakchay with … the Azeri king called Ibrahim Khalil Khan! Now, why would Russians deal with the Azeris if it was an Armenian land?
4) After the Russian victory over Iran, they moved a lot of Armenians into the area as buffer against Iran. Just do a simple Google search on the Russian General at the time, Griboyedov, and you will find his memoirs mentioning the hassles of moving Armenians into “Muslim heartlands” in Karabak. Also, search youtube for Putin Armenia, and you will find a video where Putin says the same thing, with pride.
5) During World War I, British Troops occupied Karabak, and dealt, again, with the Azeris in signing contracts, recognizing Khosrov bey Sultanov as the Karabak government (again, not an Armenian one)
6) In 1920s, Soviet Union decided to let Karbaak CONTINUE to be part of Azerbaijan, despite Armenian petitions. In exchange, Azeris gave up Zangezur to Armenia as “symbol of friendship”
You might say, well how about before 1500s? Well, for sure, between 1000-1500, the area were ruled by various Mongol-Tatar and their Turkified local populations. And how about before 1000? Here the picture gets murky because of all the new ethnogenesis processes, and history of Albania. Now, let’s pause though. Let’s grant, for ARGUMENT’s sake, that was an Armenian-governed land. Would that mean that you have ownership rights to the land that has not been yours for over 1000 years! Who is to adjudge these claims? Would such claims give a right to countries in modern world today to wage wars against neighbors based on shaky claims?
Now, have there lived Armenians in Karabak? Sure, they had local 5 Armenian Meliks there for some time (mini-vassals of Iranians and Azeris) . Perhaps for a very very long time for 1000+ years Armenians have lived on that land. But the truth is, for the last 1000+ years it has NOT been Armenian, and no one really knows for sure who formally ruled the land before then.
So, next time, you claim Karbaak as yours, study a little history first please.
Karim:
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Do you remember the lie you manufactured a while back when we were discussing the Dadivanq Church (located on the forested base of Mt. Mrav, on the left side of the Tartar river) from the 5-13th century. In Kalvachar (Kelbajar, in Turkish) ?
Remember how you claimed it was allegedly “Caucasian Albanian”, and therefore “Azerbaijani” ?
Remember how our compatriot Sella caught you in the lie ?
Here:
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{By the way, the presence of an old Church there is not a proof of Armenian ownership. It is disgusting how you guys try to claim Albanian stuff to be Armenian, as if ALbania never existed. By definition, Albanians could not be ARmenian, because Armenians are Armenian. SO where did Albanians evaporate? The truth, denied by the invaders, is that they become the ancestors of the modern Azeris.} (Kerim // January 12, 2013 at 7:32 pm @AW)
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{Kerim,
Do you have any idea were Caucasian Albania was? Look at the map please and tell me if NKR is in C. Albania?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania
We should ask you where Caucasian Albania evaporated because it is you who live in their territory not us? In this age of internet you can not tell lies as you please. I know that Axeris have been entertaining the idea of Armenian churches being Albanian, but you as an individual, are free to educate yourself.
Non of Armenian churches are Albanian. Now that you have learned where C. Albania was tell us where Albanian churches are?] (Sella // January 12, 2013 at 9:59 pm //@AW)
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And here is how nomads manufacture history to ‘prove’ they were there all that time: destroy any evidence of the historic presence of the indigenous civilizations.
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[High-Resolution Satellite Imagery and the Destruction of Cultural Artifacts in Nakhchivan, Azerbaijan]
http://shr.aaas.org/geotech/azerbaijan/azerbaijan.shtml
[Tragedy on the Araxes]
http://archive.archaeology.org/online/features/djulfa/index.html
{ Adding to the controversy over Djulfa is the widespread belief in Azerbaijan, whose population is majority Muslim, that the Christian burial monuments were the work of the Caucasian Albanians (unrelated to the Albanians of the Balkans), and not the Armenians. Speaking to the BBC last December, Hasan Zeynalov, the permanent representative of Nakhichevan in the Azeri capital of Baku, strongly dismissed all concerns over Djulfa. “Armenians have never lived in Nakhichevan, which has been Azerbaijani land from time immemorial, and that’s why there are no Armenian cemeteries and monuments and have never been any,” he explained.}
.
Maybe you yourself need to study a little history first, Karim.
Empty reasoning is to justify self interest not history.
1. Putin visit:
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Below is the video of the signing of various documents between Russia and Azerbaijan during Putin visit. (@news.am link)
If you have time, watch the entire 18 minutes: very educational (….carefully observe the body language).
Watch Putin and Aliyev.
Observe the behaviour of Aliyev vs Putin when documents are being signed, and both are standing in the background: Aliyev is fidgeting like a nervous schoolboy, clearly uncomfortable being there. Putin is the Alpha-bear: completely dominating the little wolf-puppy.
Look at Aliyev’s face: he looks like cr___p: the stress, fatigue, and disappointment quite obvious on his face: Aliyev is only about 50, but looks much older than Putin. Look at the stress-bags under his eyes.
(behind closed doors, Putin must have read the riot-act to the little Sultan about something)
When Aliyev is speaking, Putin can hardly contain his annoyance and impatience with the endless droning on of the Aliyev BS.
It’s funny how Putin humiliated Aliyev publicly in his own country: Aliyev’s face clearly shows it.
Putin sold $1Billion of weaponry to Aliyev, and then told him: “…you cannot use it against Armenia.”.
(“…solving Karabakh conflict exclusively by political means…” Putin).
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Aliyev is going to buy $4Billion worth of Russian weaponry, supposedly, during next few years – so he can parade them in Baku every year and impress his sheeple.
Publicly, Armenia has to say it is ‘disappointed’. But the sales were known about by RoA leadership long before announced.
Russia is selling weapons to Azerbaijan which it cannot use against its #1 enemy. (yeah, according to Aliyev Armenians are their #1 enemy).
How many people think Russia will allow Azerbaijan to use those long range weapons it bought against RoA, while there is a Russian base in Gyumri with thousands of Russian troops ?
Last time a country launched a surprise attack and killed a dozen Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, the aggressor was savagely mauled and almost cut in half by the angry bear.
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And Azerbaijani leadership and their minions continue showing how stupid they are: publicly insulting the FM of Russia.
In case people have not heard, the fluent Russian speaking Azerbaijani announcer at the hall deliberately mispronounced Sergey Lavrov’s first name: he used the Turkish version of the F-word instead of ‘Sergey’ (start at the 04:50 in the video).
No secret that Lavrov is half Armenian.
Azerbaijani racists are so consumed with irrational Anti-Armenian hatred, that they cannot even control themselves during an official event.
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Video in article.
http://news.am/eng/news/167182.html
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2.Artsakh and the useless Azerbaijani Black List.
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Tourism to Artsakh has been growing by leaps and bounds, _despite_ the lack of air service between Yerevan and Stepanakert
http://asbarez.com/112779/karabakh-reports-further-growth-in-tourism/
The publicity of the vacuous Black List is actually helping NKR: more people in the world hear about a place called ‘Artsakh/Karabagh’, and more people visit every year.
“Thank you” Azerbaijani idiot leaders: more free publicity for our beautiful Artsakh, Please.
And the 300 hundred or so people on the list could not care less if they are on the list or not.
People that plan to visit Artsakh are told about the blacklist beforehand: they go anyway.
16,000 tourists visited Artsakh in 2012. Compare that to 300, and then tell us how effective ‘blacklisting’ has been in isolating Artsakh.
And European MPs who were blacklisted are furious at the insult: Azerbaijan will find out in due time how blacklisting European VIPs will blow up in its face.
[French lawmakers outraged at Azerbaijan’s black list]
http://news.am/eng/news/166397.html
http://www.lejdd.fr/Politique/Actualite/22-Francais-sur-la-liste-noire-d-Azerbaidjan-623346
{ L’Azerbaïdjan essaye de se donner une virginité mais c’est un écran de fumée. C’est un Etat criminel”, va même jusqu’à dire le député centriste.}
{Azerbaijan is trying to present itself as a virgin place, but this is only a smokescreen. This is a criminal state,” he said.} (Francois Rochbloine).
Yes, indeed: Azerbaijan is a Criminal and Terrorist state, in every sense of the word.
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3. “…… it is just one element in our multi-pronged campaign to defeat the aggressor that has taken over 20% of our land.” (Karim)
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That’s a good one coming from nomadic Turkic invaders: “our land”. Please show us a single historic proof that there were any Altaic Turkic tribes anywhere in or near Caucasus before about 1000 years ago.
Does 1000 year uninvited presence give you nomads some rights ?
Then surely 5000+ year indigenous presence of Armenians gives us 5X those rights, donnit ?
And are you an indigenous ethnos of the area now called fake ‘Azerbaijan’ ?
Are you a Lezgin, for example ?
The same indigenous Lezgins oppressed by the nomadic Altaic Turkic invaders ?
[UNPO: Lezgis Mistreated in Azerbaijan]
http://www.unpo.org/article/16277#sthash.YXwtaNbV.dpuf
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About that 20%: the mythical 20% includes the NKAO footprint itself. In the magical math of the AzeriTatarTurk invaders, indigenous Armenians ‘occupy’ their own lands in Artsakh. Not only nomadic Turkic tribes invaded _our_ lands and stole most of it, now they claim whatever is left as ‘theirs’.
The reality is that AzeriTatarTurk invaders still occupy historic Armenian lands in Lowlands Karabagh, up to the Kur river.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania
(not forgetting Nakhichevan on the other side, of course).
The reality is that AzeriTatarTurk invaders still occupy lands of other indigenous peoples, such as Lezgins, Tats, Talysh, etc.
We, indigenous peoples of the region will wait.
We will all get stronger together.
Time is on our side. Azerbaijan will fracture.
The indigenous minorities of the artificial creation called ‘Azerbaijan’ will have their own independence.
Hopefully Armenians can help them achieve it.
There will be peace and prosperity in the region for all peoples, after the warmongering nomadic Turkic invaders are defanged and rendered harmless.
God willing.
Thanks Avery For your unwavering,educational and factual response to mr.confused Karim.
Karim,
I once explained to you that in Arabic ‘Karim’ means honorable,kind, ethical,esteemed etc. What is going on with you? You stated sometime ago that your Grrrrrrand Father was or maybe he was an Armenian mechant in Artsakh(Karabagh)…Do you mean or suggest that the indigenous Armenians for many thousand years are the new comers in the area? Please Karim show us a map that shows “fake” Axerbajan country existed for 1,ooo years as you claim.
Kerim, you must be suffering from multiple personality disorder. Every day you sing a different tune about the same subject. Your true Azeri colors are starting to show. You are from the same stock so why should you be any different? The difference between you and the rest who post a single-line bumper-sticker remark is that you know where they stand. You, on the other hand, song and dance around your real intent and try to act civil but at the end you can’t help who you are and, like an onion with many layers, as each layer is removed you eventually get to the core of the person you really are.
It is so obvious from your remarks that Azeris are psychologically suffering tremendously from the humiliating defeat Armenians have handed to them. So much so that you people constantly make excuses by your ridiculous and juvenile remarks. Things like as you say and I quote “as soon as we somehow manage to convince Russia to stand aside, at least for a couple of months while we put to use our fancy Israeli toys”. You are such sore losers and your words are so “lady” like that you give real men bad name.
You got billions of dollars worth of military “toys” and some, by your own admission, from the Russians themselves and you are still making excuses that your hands are tied and you can’t do anything because Russia is in the way. It is not the Russians who are in your way, it is the fact that you can’t grow a pair to do anything. All your military toys and parades are nothing but a dog and pony show for internal consumption. You have to continually second guess yourselves because physically defeated and psychologically beaten down people, no matter how much toys they got, are always in doubt and unsure of themselves and know what a second defeat will mean to them. It would mean nothing less than losing a little bit of manhood left in you.
Your empty rhetoric is very amusing I must say. Your words are the words of a desperate man who has hit a dead-end. Your days must be like hell to make statements like and I quote “We will make you a pay a very stiff price for your temporary victory”. Our victory is not temporary but a permanent one. You need to see a shrink to come to terms with that. Do you really think Armenians actively from all four corners of the world would pour billions of dollars into building infrastructure in Karabakh, deliberately neglected by Azeri SSR to force Armenians out just like they did in Nakhichevan, if they were not serious and thought our victory was temporary as you do? You are dreaming.
Putin’s visit to Baku does not mean anything in regards to the conflict. It is all wishful thinking on your part. It is like giving a glimmer of hope to a hallucinating man. The United States high ranking officials not only visit Arab countries but they also have military ties with them. Does that mean this relationship between the US and the Arabs should concern Israel? Hell No. Israel has been in constant state of war with the Arabs since its inception in 1948 and the US has been an ally of Arabs even before that. What detrimental effect has this relationship had on Israel? None.
Armenia and Russia have military alliance and the relationship between Armenia and EU is an economic one. There is NO conflict of interest here. All Armenia is doing is diversifying its economy. Azerbaijan, on the other hand, is a close ally of Turkey which is a NATO ally at Russia’s backyard and NATO is Russia’s number one adversary. Now you tell me if Russia should worry about what Armenia does or what Azerbaijan is doing? Georgia 2008 comes to mind. Besides, Armenia and Karabakh are getting so much military hardware from Russia, either free or at cost, that they don’t have enough warehouses to store them.
The Azeri blacklist does not mean a damn thing to anyone who knows the history of the region and is a proponent of people’s right to self-determination. Your statement that we are aggressors and have taken over 20% of your land is horse manure. Your country never existed in the history of mankind and it was artificially created in 1918 by a genocidal Central Asian tribe whose language you adopted and with whom you have no shared roots whatsoever. Your religion is Persian, all your customs are Persian. Your roots are to the south of the Aras River in Northern Iran. The entire territory north of Aras River is part of Armenia.
Furthermore, Karabakh, never was and will never be part of the artificial republic of Azerbaijan. Karabakh changed hands administratively within the Soviet Union which no longer exists. When Soviet Union ceased to exist, so did the Azerbaijani administrative and illegal rule over Karabakh. This is where the story should have ended. Of course you feel Karabakh is part of your artificial country because, after all, for 70 years it was under your illegal occupation and dictated by a third entity. That entity no longer exists and if you adhered to that very simple fact back in 1991, there would never have been a war between us but you acted as any artificial state would act and you were beaten and humiliated. It is time you people stop acting like 90 year old women with hallucinations and empty gossips.
Avery – Frankly, I am a bit surprised .. your reading comprehension skills are usually better than this. Here are some highlights of the deficiency in your response to me here:
– Albania debate … I had already granted for argument’s sake that you did own Karabak 1000+ years ago, while providing historical facts indicating that it has not been yours AT LEAST for the last 1000 years. Are you saying that allegedly owning a land 1000 years ago make it right to expel and kill the people who have been living there for countless generations since? Also note this. In today’s real estate market, people actually buy TITLE INSURACE on their homes, because it might get really tricky proving ownership in court. And that is about houses sold in the last 50 years. Are you laying ownership claims to a land based on 1000+ year old history? If this was taken to court, you’d be laughed out of it. I guess that is why tanks were used instead.
– Azeris are “nomads” … Again, you just keep parroting this line, discarding all scientific evidence based on DNA studies that I keep bringing up. You cannot just ignore science to talk nonsense. It is a SCIENTIFIC FACT that Azeris are a local people. There is absolute no material traces of Mongolian Tatar ancestry in neither the maternal line (mitochondria mappings) or paternal line (Y-Chromosome hyplogroup studies by National Geographic, science journals, etc). They all point to Azeris NOT being nomads but a local Caucasian/Middle Eastern people, who have adopted Turkic language through elite domination. And no, they WERE NOT Armenians. Ancient does not equal Armenian – I hate to break your illusions here. FYI, yes, Turkic language is an import in Caucasus. But guess what? So is Armenian language, which is a Persian-like Indo-European language, and not a local Caucasian language like Georgian, Chechen, etc. You are a Middle Eastern nation, in other words.
– About Putin being the alpha guy vs Aliyev. I am no big fan of Aliyev, but … who is the real Russian patsy? Sarkissian or Aliyev? Who has sold their country to Russia? Their energy infrastructure, their borders … and having Russian military base for over 50 years. Putting got NOTHING out of Aliyev during the trip. All Western media outlets highlighted this fact. It was a failure! I’d argue that Putin himself knew he would get nothing … it was rather a warning to Armenia in the context of the latter’s EU agreements (“we have choices, Arik”). But there was one important development in the trip. Rossneft is planning to get involved in Caspian. All the more reasons for Russia to restrain Armenia from retaliating against Baku in case of a war. By the way, do you really think Russia would ever let you do that? They can afford to let you lose Karabak in a localized war (you will become even MORE dependent on them for security) than risk a massive war. Yes, Putin did say the solution must be a political one. But then you forget … Unlike Sarkissian, Aliyev does not have to listen to the boss. Yes, it is risky to ignore Putin’s words, but he might be bluffing. Remember, Azerbaijan is not Georgia. Russia would be much more reluctant to take on Azerbaijan. There is a point at which Turkey will not be able to stay aside (at least out of its own national security interests), or even West, having learned its lesson in terms of the Russian reset thing. As for Aliyev-Putin body language, yes, it was not friendly. But what you take as a sign of nervousness in Aliyev, one can take as a sign of dislike and discomfort … the whole thing was BS, and obviously he deeply dislikes Putin, which is an ally of his enemy. Of course, they are not going to hug and smile. And that is a good thing. Being with Russia today is being on the wrong side of history. Even Armenia realizes this in some sense, seeking alliance with EU. The question is, can you have it both ways? And Putin is sending initial signals that perhaps, not.
Kerim:
You cannot jump into a quick conclusion that it is a “scientific fact” that Azeris are a local people. From what I have read, the DNA testing suggests that the Azeris are at best a mixed population with relationships with Iranians but also with the Turkmen who are the descendants of nomadic Oghuz Turks from Mongolian steppes. This is what a passage from “Where West Meets East: The Complex mtDNA Landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian Corridor” by American Journal of Human Genetics, suggests. The same Journal, in the article “A Genetic Landscape Reshaped by Recent Events: Y-Chromosomal Insights into Central Asia”, suggests that in the Azeris “there is a genetic admixture derived from Central Asians (specifically Haplogroup H12), notably the Turkmen, that is higher than that of their neighbors, the Georgians and Armenians. Therefore, your statement that “there is absolutely no material traces of Mongolian Tatar ancestry” in the Azeris is nonsense.
Another nonsense is that the “Armenian language is an import in Caucasus”. Armenians are an ancient ethnic group native to the Armenian Highland and part of Asia Minor, not just the Caucasus. Thanscaucasus (Transcaucasia) or South Caucasus are artificially created toponyms to depict a subregion. There is a large percentage of loans from Iranian languages, which by no means are “an import” to the region. There are also Hurro-Urartian borrowings in Old Armenian, which are identified as a “Caucasian substratum” consisting of loans from the Kartvelian and Northeast Caucasian languages. Because Hurro-Urartian proto-Armenian peoples inhabited the Armenian homeland in the 2nd millennium BC, their language is by no means can be considered “an import” to the region. And further development of Armenian from Proto-Indo-European family of languages has occurred within the region, not been “imported” from somewhere else.
The fact remains that until 1918 no one heard about the “Azerbaijani people” (except for the inhabitants of ancient Iranian province of Azarbaijan-Atropatene which has nothing to do with the current Republic). People inhabiting the modern-day Republic of Azerbaijan before 1918 were called Caucasian Tatars or Caucasian Tartars or simply Muslims. Do not invent history for yourselves. Inventing history is one indication of the lack thereof.
Avery:
Thanks for the video link of the signing of documents between Russia and Azerbaijan during Putin’s visit. There is an explicitely made remark by the President of Russia on the 18th minute when he says: “we also discussed important international issues, of course, the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh…” Sultan Aliyev must have choked at “international”.
Laughable was the mention of “Azerbaijani sailors” by Putin.
Ararat, you are essentially calling us Azeris the sore losers who should get over the “permanent” (if you say so, I guess) loss. Well, it is funny coming from an Armenian. You guys cannot get over a loss that took place 1000 years ago with Turks taking over, and yet you expect us to forget Karabak after only 20 years, which we documentedly have had for at least 1000+ years? If Armenia did not think this victory to be a temporary one pending a permanent peace treaty, then you would not be selling your souls (and infrastructure) to Russian to protect you! It is plain and simple.
According to your logic, Urartu and Armenians have no historical continuity because the names are different. The same goes with the Azeris and the lands that have been called different things throughout history, from Turkic tribes to the subsequent co-ownership of the Persian empire till the times of Gajar.
You are right about our similarities with Persians. No, not because we did not exist before 1918, but because the Turkic Azeri kings rules the roost between 1000 and late 1700s, after which the real Persian Persians took over before Russians’ arrival. And here is where I really get puzzled by the otherwise educated Armenians’ willful ignorance of this fact: did Stalin invent the Iranian south Azeri nationhood too? Are you really not aware of the existence of the 16 million Azeris in Iran? Who invented them? Also, your claim that we at best belong to the south of Aras river, what historical basis do you have for this within the last 1000+ years? It is the other way around when it comes to the modern Armenians living in Karabak currently. Read Griboyedov’s notes from the time he was moving Armenians from Iran to Karabak to help create a buffer against Iran. There is even a monument there in Khankendi celebrating the 150 year anniversary of this relocation to karabak. I believe it is still standing there!
“You guys cannot get over a loss that took place 1000 years ago with Turks taking over, and yet you expect us to forget Karabak after only 20 years?”
The difference, Kerim, which you stubbornly deny to admit, is that the loss of the greater part of the Armenian sovereignty to the Seljuk and Ottoman Turks was the loss of our ancestral lands to the terrorizing nomadic warriors, the intruders from Central Asia. Whereas your loss of Artsakh was the correction of a historical mistake made in the early 1920s by Stalin who assigned the region and Nakhichevan to the never-before exiting nation of Azerbaijan.
“then you would not be selling your souls (and infrastructure) to Russia to protect you”
What you call “selling a soul” we call security guarantees for a land-locked ancient nation that’s seen genocidal extermination and the theft of lands by your Turkic brethren, as well as pogroms, killings, and other savage methods of murder by your own Azeri people. If you think that by inviting Turkish military advisers and selling your gas and oil resources is not another form of selling a soul, you’re gravely mistaken.
““the Azeris and the lands that they lived have been called different things throughout history.”
Would be interested to know how the lands on which Azeris (not the Persian Azarbaijanis, not the Christian Albanians, and not the invader Seljuk Turks) were called?
“No, not because we did not exist before 1918”
Show us where was Azerbaijan—on any map or in any chronicle—before 1918. Again, please refrain from referring us to Atropatene or Christian Caucasian Albania.
“Did Stalin invent the Iranian south Azeri nationhood too?”
No, he didn’t. But Iranian south Azeris are Turkified Persians of the originally Persian ancient Zoroastrian province of “Āzar Pāyegān”. What do the Turkic Azeris in the Republic have to do with them? If they existed as a separate entity, then why they stole the name of an Iranian province for themselves and turned into Azerbaijanis from Tartars virtually overnight in 1918?
“Read Griboyedov’s notes from the time he was moving Armenians from Iran to Karabak to help create a buffer against Iran.”
I hope you’re not seriously saying that before Griboyedov’s times there existed no Armenians in Artsakh? If you are, then please explain how Artsakh was a province of the Kingdom of Armenia from 2nd century BC until 4th century AD and an Armenian region of Caucasian Albania from the 4th century to the 7th century AD? Explain why one of the capitals of Armenian Emperor Tigran the Great is found there? Also explain how from the 7th to 9th centuries, Artsakh formed the Armenian principality of Khachen and then in the 11th to 14th centuries existed as the medieval Kingdom of Artsakh, maintaining autonomy even at the time of the Turkic invasions? Who lived on the land? Martians? Who left numerous traces of civilization—churches, monasteries, chronicles, frescos, etc? Martians? And might you know where the Azeris were at the time?
Karim, once again your words are a desperate man’s attempt to convince himself of the fallacy that his nation is righteous and superior to a nation that has defeated and demoralized them by making up fictions to put them down. This behavior is typical of a people who are frustrated, out of touch with reality and unable to deal with and accept its defeat like honorable people would.
You are suffering from inferiority complex and that’s why you need to bring in the Russians into your conversations to rationalize your defeat. I’m sure that’s very therapeutic. The reality is far from your fictional world. It is comical to think such honorable people would spend millions of dollars to hire North Caucasian terrorists, Turkish fascists, filthy Middle Eastern Islamists and mercenaries from former Soviet Republics, who would sell their mothers for a buck, to do the fighting for them by dropping bombs on innocent civilians. Not to mention forcing the ethnic minorities, such as the Talysh, into the front lines while “brave” Azeri soldiers and commanders were hiding behind them.
Armenians have not lost their souls as you falsely claim. This is a misconception on your part. In a state of animosity, every country has to prioritize its actions based on what is important for the welfare of the country and act accordingly. This is what Armenia is doing and not what you claim. As an analogy, look at what’s happening in the United States for that last 15 years. The freest country in the world threw the freedom out the door and implemented the Patriot Act to defend the country. I have heard so much lies and propaganda nonsense from Azeris that nothing surprises me anymore. You country even has a special department assigned and dedicated to spreading misinformation about the Armenians. In one occasion, I read from the Azeri sources that not only Armenian Genocide is a lie but five million Turks and two million Azeris were killed by the Armenians. Imagine that! Such behavior speaks volumes about your lack of morality and you could care less what is and what is not fact as long as you get to portray us in a light that suits your racist intents.
As far as the Azeris in Northern Iran are concerned, they were not invented but they are nothing other than Turkified ethnic Persians. If you talk to most Azeris from Iran you will find out they consider themselves Iranians. They want to have nothing to do with the Azeris who are trying to cause trouble. There is a minority of them, influenced by the separatist Azeris to the north, who claim to be a different people. These are the remnants of those who attempted to secede from Iran in 1945, with help from the Soviet Union primarily for oil reserves, when there was a temporary power vacuum in Iran and they failed. Today, they are paying for their separatist acts. To further prove my point that you people are making things up, is to say I have read so many different figures as to how many Azeris, aka Turkified ethnic Persians, live in Northern Iran that one can only conclude the numbers are fabricated. You say 16 million, which is probably closer to reality, yet other anti-Iranian separatists claim the number to be as high as 35 million.
You could not be any more wrong in regards to the fallacy that 150 years ago Armenians from Iran were moved to Karabakh region to create a buffer zone between Russia and Iran. For your information, the Armenians of Iran are the descendants of the those who were forced out of their homelands from Nakhichevan and Karabakh regions by the Persian Shah Abbas in 1603 as a result of a war between the Persian and the Ottoman empires. Therefore, Armenians from Iran were not planted in the region to create a buffer zone as you falsely claim but rather they repatriated back to their homelands from where they had previously been uprooted.
You can make up stories, spread misinformation and use every means at your disposal to falsify history. One thing you can never change is the reality and we know the reality very well and can smell fallacy from miles away.
Karim khan,
I know history of Persia (Iran) please don’t dictate your personal comments in AW, when you are not aware of all details …either you deliberately give us wrong information or you have been brain washed by your regime propaganda machine, or taking some information form internet.
You are trying to show that Ghajar Persian Turkic dynasty Sultans, as Azeri Sultans, and that is not true, but I believe, that you have a permanent Axeri Sultan in your newly crowned oil Sheikhdom!!
Read below Aleksander_Griboyedov bio, and you will find, there is no mention of Azerbaijan, but Persia, East Armenia, and Russian Empire!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Griboyedov
Ararat, I am not surprised that you are switching to ad hominem, instead of responding to the historical facts from me. And here are more facts, indicating that Armenians were moved to Karabak in large numbers in late 1700s to early 1800s, by Russians. See these quotes from the Russian and American sources. These are not opinions, but are per documents from Russian archives and Western scholars. Show me any documents and proves that Iran was just “returning” Armenians to Karabak, having removed them from there? E.g., why would they have removed them from Point A to Point B in their own empire before Russians took over Caucasus? With Russians, there is a clear and documented motivation by Russians, to create a buffer against Iran an. And there is a 1978 monument in Karabak celebrating these events. Note that it is not like Jews being allowed to return to Jerusalem. Karabak has never been such a “motherland” for Armenia to which to return. Mount Ararat, yes. But Karabak never shows up in history as an Armenian heartland. It could have been during sporadic periods a part of ancient Armenian kingdoms for limited amount of time, but territories switch empires all the time. What is documented is that at least for the last 1000 year, Karabak was not an Armenian land. Just see these quotes, and, next time, instead of calling me names and questioning my morality, please stick to the facts, if you can find any.
– Article XV of “Treaty of Turkmenchay” signed on February 10, 1828 envisaged resettlement of the Armenians. From Article XV: “The King Excellency… grant the full pardon to all the people of the region and officials of province named Azerbaijan… In addition, those officials and residents, together with his families, starting from today is given a time of one year for free leaving of Iranian province to Russia, not imposing any customs duty and taxes by the government and any local authority on their goods or property and allowing to take it without any hindrance. Regarding immovable property the period of five years is granted for its sale or voluntary disposal on it.”
As Griboyedov wrote at the time: “… from all regions occupied by the Russian army, Tabriz, Khoy, Salmas, Maraga all the Armenians should be moved to Nakhichevan, Yerevan and Garabagh provinces….” Griboyedov’s this recommendation was executed properly. Lateron, N. Shavrov wrote: “The Armenians were accommodated in the best lands of Yelizavetpol and Erivan provinces where the Armenian population was in small number….the mountainous part of province Yelizavetpol (Nagorno-Garabagh) and coasts of Goycha Lake was settled by the Armenians.”
Under the terms of the Turkmanchai Treaty, 40,000 Armenians were resettled in Azerbaijan. Following the conclusion in 1829 of the Peace Agreement in Edirne, 90,000 Armenians who had been living in the Ottoman Empire were also resettled in Azerbaijan. The Russian authorities resettled the Armenians primarily on the territory of the Nakhchivan, Iravan and Garabagh khanates.
Griboyedov has written, “the Armenians have for the most part been settled on the lands of Muslim landowners… The settlers… are forcing out the Muslims… We also discussed at some length the work of persuasion to be done with the Muslims in order to reconcile them to their present hardships, which would not continue for a long time, and to rid them of the fear that the Armenians would maintain permanent possession of the lands to which they had once been allowed to move.”‘
And here is more:
In the work of the American scholar, Justin McCarthy, “over two million Muslims were forcibly exiled and an unknown number of them were killed… On two occasions, in 1828 and 1854, the Russians invaded Eastern Anatolia… and on both occasions they were forced to retreat, taking 100,000 Armenians with them to the Caucasus, where they were resettled in place of the Turks (Azerbaijanis) who had emigrated or perished. … In the war of 1877-1878, Russia seized the Kars-Ardagan district, forced out the Muslims and settled 70,000 Armenians there… During the events of 1895-1896, approximately 60,000 Armenians were resettled in the Caucasus… Migration during the First World War was fairly balanced ¬ 400,000 Armenians from Eastern Anatolia were exchanged for 400,000 Muslims from the Caucasus.”‘
Any responses, Ararat? Facts, please. Not ad hominem.
GB, you say you know Persian history. I don’t think so. To believe that 16m+ Azeris in Iran are not really Azeris … well, that just shows how much you know about Persia. Somehow the rest of the world, including Iranians themselves, recognize this. There are actually large states/districts called Azerbaijan. And, to quote your friend Ararat, calling Azeris not a different nation, but just the Persians who speak Turkic … that just takes the cake of ignorance or distortion. The fact in the meantime remains, there are 16 million Azeris South of Aras, and 9 million North. 25 million Azeris. If you add 75m Turks, and you have 100 million Turks/Azeris, versus 2 million Armenians, and shrinking. 100 vs 2. I don’t have an inferiority complext at all. We may have lost Karabak, but, if you are right about losing as much territory as you think you have, then you should be the one suffering from such complexes.
@Ararat, to stare at a mountain that is not yours and call it yours … that must be a source of great psychological anquish. I would never want to be in your shoes.
Kerim, in your earlier remark you acknowledged, and I am paraphrasing, that Mount Ararat is part of the Armenian Motherland and you were absolutely correct about that. The remark you made here and I quote “to stare at a mountain that is not yours and call it yours … that must be a source of great psychological anquish.” is more like a cheap shot from a frustrated man and you could not be any farther from the truth in your remark. Once again, for your information, Ararat is the Biblical name and a reference to the Armenian heartland and the Armenian nation. Unlike what you are imagining, starring at Mount Ararat across the border under Turkish occupation is not a source of great psychological anguish for me or any other Armenian. It is a source of energy that feeds us and gives us strength and reminds us every day that our work is far from over. It nourishes our souls and our spirits and it solidifies our collective determination to accomplish our national goals.
Another reminder and source of strength and absolute determination for us are the denigration of the memories of our dead and buried ancestors and the dumping into the Aras River of all the broken and bulldozed sacred Armenian stone-crosses in the occupied Armenian province of Nakhichevan by the sadistic Azerbaijani army. Now, it is this racist and barbaric act by the Azerbaijanis that qualifies to be labeled as psychological anguish. An inhumane act to remove any sign of the indigenous Armenians of the land by an artificial nation that takes out its frustration on dead and buried Armenians and their 1,300 year old cemeteries to compensate for what it could not accomplish in the battlefield. Only sadistic people are capable of such acts. It shows a tremendous amount of psychological anguish on your part and so much so that you could not even leave our dead people in peace. You have to be an Armenian to comprehend what the punishment for such an act is and I sure would not want to be in your shoes when the day of reckoning arrives.
Specially for you, Kerim. Note that none of these scholars writing on the origin of Persian Azerbaijanis is Armenian.
“Azeri material culture, a result of this multi-secular symbiosis, is thus a subtle combination of indigenous elements and nomadic contributions…. It is a Turkish language learned and spoken by Iranian peasants”. ~Xavier de Planhol
“The mass of the Oghuz Turkic tribes who crossed the Amu Darya towards the west left the Iranian plateau, which remained Persian, and established themselves more to the west, in Anatolia. Here they divided into Ottomans, who were Sunni and settled, and Turkmens, who were nomads and in part Shiite (or, rather, Alevi). The latter were to keep the name “Turkmen” for a long time: from the 13th century onwards they “Turkised” the Iranian populations of Azerbaijan (who spoke west Iranian languages such as Tat, which is still found in residual forms), thus creating a new identity based on Shiism and the use of Turkish. These are the people today known as Azeris.” ~Olivier Roy
“The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers, several pockets of whom still exist in the region.” ~Richard Frye
“Speaking of the Azerbaijan culture originating at that time, in the XIV-XVcc., one must bear in mind, first of all, literature and other parts of culture organically connected with the language. As for the material culture, it remained traditional even after the Turkicization of the local population. However, the presence of a massive layer of Iranians that took part in the formation of the Azerbaijani ethnos, have imposed its imprint, primarily on the lexicon of the Azerbaijani language which contains a great number of Iranian and Arabic words. The latter entered both the Azerbaijani and the Turkish language mainly through the Iranian intermediary. Having become independent, the Azerbaijani culture retained close connections with the Iranian and Arab cultures. They were reinforced by common religion and common cultural-historical traditions.” ~Rostislav Rybakov
Karim
It is a well established fact that the language of the population in the north-east of Iran, which from the time of ancient Iranian empires was called Atropatakan or Atrpatakan, started to change since the invasion of Iran by the Seljuks and went on during the centuries of different Turkish dynasties ruling (parts) of Iran, untill it became complete at the time of the Safavids. This was due to the fact the Turkish, Monghol, Tatar invaders setteld themselves in the area and in the process intermingled with the local population and spread their language among them.
Though there were Turkish tribes in the Caucusus even before Ottoman empire was established, for instance fighting in the ranks of Sasanid armies, it is a myth to claim that Azeri language was the language spoken in the areas called Azerbaijan a thousand years ago. It is therefore correct to say that Iranian Azeris are Iranians speaking Azeri and as such they are of course entitled to speak and write the languge that is their mother tongue for centuries.
But, Such changes and transformations in language and demography are not uncommon in history and are caused by different factors such as wars, forced or voluntary migration ect.
At the turn of 16th centurey, Shah Abbas Safavid of Persia, who was himself a Qizilbash, moved large numbers of Armenians from Armenia to the centre of Iran, Isfahan. Historical records mention 300000 to 350000 were moved. As a result of this large areas of Armenia were made vacant and filled later with Moslim population both under the Ottomans and Persians. Then at the time of Irano-Russian wars some 50000 Armenians moved from north Iran to South Caucusus, and their villages were filled with Azeri speaking people. The story of Nakhijevan is another example of change of demograpy from 1920’s up to our times due to deliberate, discriminatory policy of Soviet Azerbaijani authorities to force Armeninas out of the area.
You boast that “… there are 16 million Azeris South of Aras, and 9 million North. 25 million Azeris. If you add 75m Turks, and you have 100 million Turks/Azeris versus 2 million Armenians .. ”. Numbers, though not unimportant, do not always count. How many Israelis are there versus 300 million or so Arabs in the Middle East. Secondly, your frequent reference to McCarthy, among others, a disreputable scholar, notorious for his denialist views on Armenian Genocide, already shows the real face and intent of your ‘historical research’.
And the last thing you should beware is implicating Iranian-Azeris in your pan-Azeri, pan-Turkish designs. True, Iranian-Azeris, speak the same language (approximately) as you do, but they have nothing in common with your racist, expansionist hallucinations.
Karim Khan, have you ever asked from the Sultan of oil, that why he never put the names of Iranian visitors in his black book?? Thousands of fun loving Azeris from South, visiting Ghareh Bagh, every year!!
Karim
It is a well established fact that the language of the population in the north-east of Iran, which from the time of ancient Iranian empires was called Atropatakan or Atrpatakan, started to change since the invasion of Iran by the Seljuks and went on during the centuries of different Turkish dynasties ruling (parts) of Iran, untill it became complete at the time of the Safavids. This was due to the fact the Turkish, Monghol, Tatar invaders setteld themselves in the area and in the process intermingled with the local population and spread their language among them.
Though there were Turkish tribes in the Caucusus even before Ottoman empire was established, for instance fighting in the ranks of Sasanid armies, it is a myth to claim that Azeri language was the language spoken in the areas called Azerbaijan a thousand years ago. It is therefore correct to say that Iranian Azeris are Iranians speaking Azeri and as such they are of course entitled to speak and write the languge that is their mother tongue for centuries.
But, Such changes and transformations in language and demography are not uncommon in history and are caused by different factors such as wars, forced or voluntary migration ect.
At the turn of 16th centurey, Shah Abbas Safavid of Persia, who was himself a Qizilbash, moved large numbers of Armenians from Armenia to the centre of Iran, Isfahan. Historical records mention 300000 to 350000 were moved. As a result of this large areas of Armenia were made vacant and filled later with Moslim population both under the Ottomans and Persians. Then at the time of Irano-Russian wars some 50000 Armenians moved from north Iran to South Caucusus, and their villages were filled with Azeri speaking people. The story of Nakhijevan is another example of change of demograpy from 1920’s up to our times due to deliberate, discriminatory policy of Soviet Azerbaijani authorities to force Armeninas out of the area.
You boast that “… there are 16 million Azeris South of Aras, and 9 million North. 25 million Azeris. If you add 75m Turks, and you have 100 million Turks/Azeris versus 2 million Armenians .. ”. Numbers, though not unimportant, do not always count. How many Israelis are there versus 300 million or so Arabs in the Middle East. Secondly, your frequent reference to McCarthy, among others, a disreputable scholar, notorious for his denialist views on Armenian Genocide, already shows the real face and intent of your ‘historical research’.
And the last thing you should beware is implicating Iranian-Azeris in your pan-Azeri, pan-Turkish designs. True, Iranian-Azeris, speak the same language (approximately) as you do, but they have nothing in common with your racist, expansionist hallucinations.
Aarshag
Good background info debunking Azerbaijani myths of who was there first, who came later, who invaded, and who was _returning_ to their own lands from where they were forced out before.
But let us not affirm, by inference, the misinformation and disinformation being disseminated by our Turkic guests.
(e.g. “Numbers, though not unimportant, do not always count.”)
“Do not always count” is right: but the fake figures need to be corrected, lest they gel into “facts” like many other Turkic myths. (such as the 20%).
The alleged number of ‘Turks’ cited are the usual Turkic myths and exaggerations
Azerbaijan:
There are no “9 million North” of Arax river.
For one thing, the Turkic invaders of the area now called ‘Azerbaijan’ falsely label everyone there Turkic.
There reality is the indigenous non-Turkic, Iranian/Persian peoples – e.g. Talysh, Lezgin, Avars – are estimated to be around 2-2.5 million in Azerbaijan.
Nobody really knows what the actual number of Turkic stock in Azerbaijan is.
The Aliyev clan itself is reputed to be of Kurdish ancestry.
Certain Anti-Armenian Azerbaijanis like to present the country as a homogenous, solid block of ‘Azeris’: it is in fact a patchworks of various ethnicities, some of whom are chafing under the yoke of others, and not only are not part of the whole, but are working to liberate themselves.
Another little problem with the “9 million” is that there are no 9 million persons living in Azerbaijan.
It is a well known fact that there are about 2-3 million Azerbaijanis living in Russia, more or less permanently.
Recently MIR24 TV channel had an interesting program about Azerbaijan.
Apparently about 4 million people in Azerbaijan do not live where they are supposed to, per official records: nobody really knows where they are.
And the discrepancy between those eligible to vote and voter rolls shows a difference of about 1.5 million people.
So the actual number of people living in Azerbaijan is probably 6-7 million.
And despite the expectation, very few of those who live there are willing to die for their Turkic or Kurd masters.
During the last war, the leadership of Azerbaijan forcibly rounded up and sent 1000s of unwilling poor minorities, such as Talysh, Lezgi, etc., to the front.
Their reluctance to fight for land not their own and for somebody else’s glory was evident on the battlefields.
Turkey:
There are no 75 million ‘Turks’ in Turkey.
At the minimum, by official figures, there are about 15 million ethnic Kurds.
Kurds claim their numbers to be 30 million in Turkey.
Their claims cannot be easily dismissed.
By official TurkStat figures, Kurds in the East are multiplying at a rate about 3X those in the West of Turkey.
In some parts of the Turkey’s West, the non-Kurdish population has negative growth rate.
A couple of years ago, PM Erdogan said that at this rate, by 2038, there will be a “catastrophe”.
What he meant was that by that time, if trends continue, Kurds will become majority in Turkey.
One reason he is running around telling Turks to have at least 3 children.
And the Azerbaijani hallucinations about some mythical “100 million Turks/Azeris” facing “2 million” Armenians conveniently erases from the equation 115 million ethnic Russians of Russia: you think Russians are going to let Turkey get anywhere near South Caucasus ?
And it will not be against “2 million” Armenians of RoA, but 3 million.
And if we are counting everybody, then let us not forget the approx 9 million Diaspora Armenians also, Karim.
AzeriTatarTurks: don’t expect Turkey to help you; if you attack NKR, you will be facing NKR+RoA alone.
Russia will not get involved in the NKR war, but she will not let any outsiders get involved either.
Correction to my last comment:
“North-east of Iran” should be North-west..”