English
Հայերէն
Akcam to Mouradian: Your Frustration with Turkish Intellectuals Exploded in Cemal’s Face
I have to confess that when I read Khatchig Mouradian’s editorial (Armenian Weekly, Nov. 21, 2009; available online at http://www.armenianweekly.com/2009/11/18/editorial-historic-indeed-cemal-pashas-grandson-in-watertown/) I was saddened, but at the same time I saw that there was something positive in it also. His article had the effect of “lancing a boil” and I think it was necessary that it be done so. I believe that the lines he wrote were the product of long lasting frustration, but still his response to Hasan Cemal could have been much different. At the very least, Hasan didn’t deserve the things that were hinted at between the lines. And it would be better if his appearance in Watertown were discussed in relation with his Harvard event.
Taner Akcam
Khatchig’s built up frustration appears to have exploded in Hasan Cemal’s face. My dear friend Hasan ended up paying for the behavior of all those Turkish intellectuals who came before him.
As I said, dialogue is a very difficult art and Khatchig does have some valid points. But out of frustration and anger he stated things that Hasan Cemal didn’t deserve.
I want to illustrate just how hard dialogue is through a detail that on first glance seems rather trivial. Khatchig made this angry barb: “Cemal also repeatedly advised Armenians to be patient (read: It has only been 94 years, folks. Be patient!).” Sadly, it showed how Khatchig had himself stopped listening and reacted with a bit of anger. First, he tacitly places an “equals” sign between Hasan and the Turkish government and makes Hasan a representative of 94 years of denial politics. Secondly, when Hasan was talking about “being patient” he was not referring to the Turkish government’s policy of denial. Hasan was speaking about the birth of a new civil society in Turkey. Hasan was trying to explain how this civil society is just beginning and just starting to discover some things. “We don’t know the history,” he was saying. “We will learn it from you. We are in a learning process. We are coming out from darkness.” And he was requesting “a little patience” towards this newly burgeoning civil society. What Khatchig wrote was taken out of context. As I said, this otherwise trivial comment shows how difficult dialogue is when both sides are so invested to their existing positions that they can’t hear the other.
There is a lot Khatchig wrote that rings true, and I wish he had brought them up during the meeting. Not only would he have seen that Hasan’s ears were open and listening to him, but it would have also started an interesting debate. Hasan is someone who is ready to listen and capable of understanding what is being said. He is someone who can accept criticism if he has said something wrong and is ready to make the changes necessary to correct himself.
The proof of this is very simple. Below, is an email exchange between Hasan and myself. I wrote to Hasan without knowing about Khatchig’s article, and Hasan Cemal’s response is true also. You make the decision where the problem lies and where its solution can be found.
Before doing so, however, I would like to present my own self-critique. The day before the Watertown event, Hasan spoke to a mixed Turkish-Armenian audience at Harvard. His message was forceful and the event went very well. For the Watertown event, I informed him that it would be a mostly Armenian audience and we spoke a bit about what would be meaningful and important for that audience. I expected Hasan to speak about his grandfather, his family, and how his heart and mind have opened over the years—as he had at Harvard. I expected that he would end the speech with the words that he “had come here to listen to Armenians and that he would bring back their messages.” I’m not sure why, but he didn’t conduct the talk that way. He started his speech with what was supposed to be its ending and repeated Hrant’s statement regarding pain and understanding each other’s pain.
It seems as if it was one of those “wrong audience, wrong message” situations. The result was a dialogue of deaf, and maybe people misunderstood what he was really trying to say. I take some responsibility for the fact that the message didn’t come across the right way.
And that is precisely why I wrote to him. Below is that email exchange, which occurred after the talk. For your information the “Armenian friend” in the letter is a fictional character; I made him up.
***
Dear Hasan,
I’ve been thinking for a few days now. About how hard it is to talk, to engage in dialogue… After the Watertown meeting, I’ve been such a mess of emotions. There are some confusing issues, and while wondering how to sort these out, an Armenian friend came to me and we started talking… It was an interesting talk.
In summary he said this:
“I’m disappointed,” he said to me. When I asked “Why?” he said, “Why did Hasan Cemal tell me the things that he should be telling Turkish people? I don’t get it.” Two things stuck in my Armenian friend’s mind. “First” he said, “For us Armenians, the issue is this: The Ottoman government in 1915 annihilated almost 1.5 million of its own citizens. We want this recognized and at the moment we’re discussing how to talk about this with democratic, open-minded people like Hasan Cemal.” He continued, “What I’ve noticed is that they seem to insist that as a pre-condition for speaking about and denouncing this chapter in history, we need to understand the pain experienced by Muslims in the Balkans and the Caucasus.” My friend then added, “Don’t you think this is kind of a strange? First of all, Armenians didn’t deport the Muslims out of the Balkans or the Caucasus. What they experienced is tragic also, but shouldn’t that be taken up with the Greeks and the Russians? Why push this argument of ‘You need to understand this history too’ making it a kind of pre-condition for accepting the annihilation of the Armenians?” “I just don’t get it,” he continued. “I mean, is Hasan Cemal incapable of understanding my pain, unless I’m able to understand the pain experienced by Muslims in the Balkans and Caucasus? Let’s just say that as someone who supports human rights, I declare that I understand Hasan Cemal,” he went on, “how am I supposed to explain to the average Armenian the argument that ‘the pre-condition to having the destruction of our people acknowledged and understood is that those same victims understand what has happened to others in other parts of the world?’” I had no answer to that.
What my friend was trying to draw attention to is the fact that both of these issues are separate from each other. First is that “if a people have been annihilated, there can be no pre-condition to understanding and sharing the pain of those people.” We need to address those people without pre-conditions. The other is a general rule. If we as a people cannot develop an attitude that understands the pain of other people, we will never be able to prevent violations of human rights. “But,” my friend said, “this general rule seems like it’s become the pre-condition for understanding the annihilation of the Armenians.” My Armenian friend seemed to think that you had mixed up the two things.
The second point that my friend was trying to make is this: “I understand the importance of the democratization of Turkey, but when Hasan Cemal approached me, he came with a long ‘laundry list’ of things. Again, we Armenians were reminded of ‘all the rules that we must follow.’ I was told about these sensitivities and how I needed to be mindful of these sensitivities.” My friend was upset. “I don’t understand,” he said, “and I’m having a hard time understanding. There’s been 95 years of a very intense demeaning campaign of denial and no one during this period discussed our ‘sensitivity.’ As a result of all that destruction, we Armenians have been reduced to a mere handful of people. If there’s an issue of “sensitivity,” wouldn’t some ‘sensitivity’ towards the situation that we’ve been in for ages be meaningful? For some reason everything seems to rotate around Turkish ‘sensitivities’; shouldn’t we change this wheel? At the very least shouldn’t we demand ‘equality of sensitivities?’”
My friend gave an example: “If” he said, “Hasan wants to say something about democratization, this is what I would have liked to have heard: Until we accept the harm that was done to you, democratization will never take place fully. And we haven’t been able to bring the struggle for democracy to a level where acceptance of your pain and healing of those wounds is a part of it yet. What we need to do is to make the acknowledgment of 1915 into a part of the struggle for democracy and then and only then will the distance between us be narrowed.”
Dear Hasan, I wait with anticipation for the reaction to your talk. Most likely it was received as important and great for the Turkish students, but as someone who knows both sides and as someone who listens, I have to confess that there are serious obstacles before us. What we are doing is really a “difficult dialogue.” Here’s an idea for a way to get past it. We have to take people like this friend of mine and invite them to Turkey and create a forum for them to express themselves. Let them talk to a Turkish audience, the way we have invited Turkish intellectuals here to talk. I think the act of bringing Armenian intellectuals to speak to Turks is far more important at this juncture than Turkish intellectuals coming to Armenians to speak. We ought to open that door. If the dialogue remains limited to only Turkish intellectuals and Armenians, this road is going to get blocked pretty quickly and this type of dialogue will not bring us anywhere. Hrant’s words are in my ears: “Tell your friends Taner (he meant our Turkish-Armenian academics) this business is going to get finished here (in Turkey). Let them come here and try to become part of the debate here. Until they become part of the debate here, nothing will move forward.”
***
Hasan Cemal’s response:
I read your note with interest. Dialogue is definitely a difficult art! But we need to keep on doing it, without tiring of it. I guess I was unable to explain certain things to that Armenian friend. Some of what he said did make sense but I think in truth, he shut off his antennae after a while to keep from getting too confused…
***
What I should add is that the main problem is not 1915. The main problem is that we (the civil society in Turkey) still have to learn how to speak to each other and how to learn from each other. The events of 1915 in the past and speaking about it today are two separate issues. And there are so few of us willing to listen to each other; we have to work on this. We have to increase the dialogue between Turkey and Armenia and the diaspora. As Hasan says, we have to continue desperately to talk to each other. There are those who are ready to listen to you, ready to acknowledge their ignorance about history. As I mentioned in my talk, civil society in Turkey will learn the gravity of the past from you, and you, my dear Armenian friends, you learn the meaning of the present. This is a very hard, very difficult process. But as I put in title of my Turkish book in 2000, “Is there any way other than dialogue?”
160 Comments
It is important to elucidate the fatal logical flaws of those who wise to deny real justice to the Armenian people whether they be tukrish or Armenian or whatever. Some quislings wish by force of flawed argument that we only pursue genocide recognition. Recognition, restitution, reparations and restoration all go hand in hand. This why the so called turks fight tooth and nail against recognition because all the other three R’s come along for the ride. We have many allies within Anatolia and outside Anatolia of different ethnicities and faiths. Everyone has suffered at the hands of sunni turkish plurality. We have all suffered at the hands of certain sunni kurdish tribes who worked in 1908, 1915,1925, 1930 and 1938 against Armenian, kurdish and Alevi Zaza interests and continue to work for their sunni turkish masters.There are good people of Anatolian ancestry in turkey and outside, no doubt about it. Of hand I would say ( and having conversations in turkish with turks without them knowing I was Armenian) that 1/3 of turks would like to go to watertown or glendale and butcher as many Armenian women and children as possible, 1/3 are clueless as to what an Armenian is ( lately this has been changing due to all the news) and the last 1/3 are completely in our corner. And honestly, the last third would probably make better neighbors than some quislings amongst our population. The ones who are here are not here to understand but to monitor and squash anyone who writes about real justice for the Armenian people. They are scared of what may come down the pike. They know all to well that the Treaty of Sevres is the only legitimate binding treaty between Armenia and turkey. All other treaties between Armenia and turkey are void ab initio. They know very well when the court of public opinion is completely on our side, we will then pursue Hye Tahd in the international court of justice on various fronts. By the end of the day they will be worse off than south africa during apartheid and north korea put together. Financial markets will be completely closed off to them and any funds they have in foreign banks will be confiscated and trade between turkey and the world would cease until they follow thru with the turn over of lands they illegally occupy in eastern turkey, pay for the damages to all cultural treasures they have destroyed, pay for all development costs for Armenians to return to Western Armenia and pay for their citizens to settle in central anatolia. It will happen if you want it. For those who think it is crazy go on back to stuffing your faces with bak-lay-vah, and dont try to diminish the aspirations of Hye Tahd. Afterall, wasn’t the soviet union invincible and Armenia would never in our lifetime be independent? How soon we forget. The impossible is possible. Never forget that
I think the fact that people like Ajemian and Avo still haven’t answered my question regarding what Armenia’s policy should be in attempting to get back Western Armenia only validates what I said in my very first post: they are dreamers, irredentists sitting somewhere comfortable, assuming that just as long as they keep this “dream” alive, smarter, stronger, more committed Armenians will one day achieve their dream for them.
The fact that no political force, organization, (or even a serious intellectual adventure) has ever attempted to map out a plan, policy, or approach to getting back Western Armenia only proves how hollow these people are. And, at the very least, the “wait for the right moment” mentality only implies a realist policy of doing nothing until a REAL opportunity arises — much in the same way we behaved during Kilikia, during World War I, and during the Kharabagh movement.
Aside from ideological inconsistensies (like why should we only ask for parts of Historic Armenia alotted to us under Sevres and not Kilikia, parts of north-western Iran, and the outer most Armenian provinces of the Empire, despite the fact that we have “historical rights” to them), Mr. Amejian and his clever attempt at labeling us weak have failed to offer any solutions as to how we’re going to overcome the military obstacle.
No state’s boundaries have ever been readjusted without a military component — a component that we do not have, and a component that never offers us a guarantee that Turkish troops wont be occupying Yerevan and slaughtering what remains of our people (don’t tell me the Russian will protect us like they did last time). I’m sorry if you think this sounds defeatist but who in their right mind thinks its a smart idea to be childishly macho with the second most powerful army in NATO (oh that’s right…what are we going to do about NATO again?) As an Armenian leader, I wouldn’t be willing to roll the dice on the lives of 3 million Armenians just so I can give our never-supportive-when-it-matters-Diaspora a sense of historicity.
The scenarios you’re imagining with the Kurds, disguntled Turks, or whatever other misconceptions you have about Turks in Van today are all fantastic geopolitical situations that no responsible Armenian politician should ever base the future lives of Armenian children on.
I agree with Henry Doumanian that trying to get back Western Armenia would amount to a suicidal adventure for Armenia and the Armenian nation. Or not. It’s so unfeasible at the moment that it wouldn’t even take off. It is true that we ought to focus our efforts on strengthening the current territory of Armenia and Artsakh.
What you do not do is to give up your rights on principle just because the reality is adverse. It is one thing to acknowledge political realities and it is quite a different thing to renounce truth and one’s own rights, even in the face of overwhelming adversity. By the same token, we ought to give up our campaign to get recognition for the Genocide. Turkey is unlikely to acknowledge it, even after the Armenian government has given up all demands, all preconditions, renounced to the lost territories of Western Armenia. Yet these territories were stolen from us. It is a matter of debate where you draw the line on the map, but the territories granted by the Sevres Treaty legally belonged to Armenia and that ought to be binding by international law. It is not respecting international law that the Turks got them.
In other words, truth is truth and you do not give it up. Theoretically, anyone can profer all kinds of lies under torture but confession under torture does not count. Yes, the torture has power over you, yes, you are saying what the torturer wants to hear but no, that’s not true.
While everybody is free to believe and pursue whatever he wants, my demands from Turkey do not stop at Genocide recognition. There have to be reparations. Moreover, it is not only a moral demand. Never forget that we have next door an unpunished and unrepentant state that exterminated us and came close to doing the same with the population of modern Armenia in 1919-1921. This state is now imposing new demands for Armenia to withdraw from Artsakh before they ratify these protocols which are already the fulfillment of pretty much what I understand you advocate, so the lesson for me is that Turkey will never give up until they open contiguity with Azerbaijan and unify both halves of the Turkic world. It’s in their natural interest, come think of it. Hence, Turkey is naturally Armenia’s enemy, even if you omit the Genocide recognition, the Western Armenia territories and all other demands from the equation. The Turkish state does not want to seriously negotiate with Armenia, not in the long term, in the long term they would want us out of their way: do not confuse it here with Turkish individuals, who may be good or bad, nice or not, friendly or not, it’s irrelevant, as irrelevant as for Chileans and Bolivians to be friendly yet Chile and Bolivia, both Latin American countries, both Spanish-speaking, majority Catholic and almost identical in ethnic makeup, yet Chile not even for one second has agreed in the last 100 years agreed to grant Bolivia a 2-mile strip of coastal territory from lands Bolivia lost in a war in the late 1800′s. Why? Because the Chilean state, as any state in the world, naturally resents giving up territory and it’s naturally the enemy of Bolivia, who in the past has proved an unreliable neighbour.
Great states and statesman operate with historical perspectives and not the short-sighted perspective of history as the beginning and end of our lifetime.
No Armenian government has the right to renounce what’s ours in the pursuit of its foreign policy, especially not when there is no compelling reason for it. You can have trade and relations with Turkey without giving up your rights. Turkey has not given up the rights of Northern Cyprus in its relations with Greece nor has it withdrawn its claims on some Aegean islands for the sake of that.
The problem in our case is that the Armenian government does not truly represent us, and that’s the Diaspora’s fault too. We do not have a panArmenian body, so to speak it, that would grant us some voice and vote over issues that are critical to us all, whether Armenian citizens or Diaspora Armenians, who are as much Armenian as any Armenian in the world, whether in Armenia or not, with the added burden that we are striving here in the Diaspora to remain Armenian every day against formidable challenges. So, we need that: a kind of panArmenian parliament that represents us, where you have the voice to express your views on what you expect from Turkey and where I can do the same and every Armenian can. As far as I am concerned, when it comes to Turkey and Armenian relations, as Faulkner said, “the past is still there: it’s not even past”.
Respectfully yours,
Avo
Mr. Dummanian,
You are enjoying the sound of your own voice. I am sorry to say. I don’t know of any question in your so called first post. Ask me a question and I’ll give you an answer. Bend, twist, add half truths and outright lies about anything I have written is very sad on your part. What you do is very easy. You assume things and give sly insults. You have much to learn from me. And please give up the insulting language, we are all Armenians, no need for it. Just Focus on what is written and present intelligent questions. Don’t be a blog terrorist.
Mr. Ajemian,
You should scroll up, I posed these questions numerous times — you were a late comer into the discussion. I don’t understand which part was insulting (confrontational, yes, but not insulting).
I presented intelligent questions…do you mind answering them?
I’m sorry I offended you — but for someone who is so concerned with being offensive, you should be chastising Avo, and, frankly, you should stop trying to attack your opponents by claiming they are all one and the same person trying to “trick” readers: “but if you are going to throw back handed insults then we will know more about you as men then about where you stand. It’s funny how you guys stand behind pseudonyms. For all the we know karekin, mike and henry is just one guy.” That is quite offensive.
Anyway, back to the discussion — enough with this empty “we are all Armenians” rhetoric — we KNOW we are all Armenians. I might disagree with some of you but I wouldn’t be arrogant enough to think that you have FORGOTTEN who we all are.
Hajoghutsyun.
Mr. Dumanian,
I have been fighting the barbarians for the last 30 years in various ways which I wont go into at this time. Our enemies are very sophisticated in their tactics and overall strategy. They use whatever they can to muddy the waters. I must concede that including your name was a mistake. I think the value of these discussions is avoiding the pot shots and come down to a synthesis of ideas that would be of value ultimately to the Armenian nation. In my last post (which was edited) I asked if you had taken any undergraduate or graduate classes in Armenian or Transcaucasian history. I dont think you have. Only because I believe you have your view points based on the here and now outside of the understanding, a deep understanding of Armenian history. Now I know what you are going to think. That my thinking is stuck in history and devoid of understanding of the present realities. Far from it. I must say at this point that your last post did not have a question posed to me. Anyway, in a nutshell this is what I believe( as obvious as some may be I will state them anyway): We are living in the best and worst times of Armenian history. The Armenian state is in a precarious situation. Armenia is a protectorate not an independent state. Russian owns all the infrastructure in Armenia; rail and energy. The oligarchs run the commodities markets as monopolies. The oligarchs(who by the way, have no national pride because of a lack historcial perspective) on their trips to turkey have been salivating at the ideas their turkish hosts have been feeding them on what lucrative deals can be had if they could work together and have the border open. Europe wants more secure gas supplies. At this moment in time and space, unfortunately, we have the protocols. It is my belief that the protocols will make Armenia not only a Russian protectorate but a turkish one as well. In the 19th century Russian imperialist policy was summed up in this quote ” an Armenia without Armenians”. Nobody cares if we suffered a genocide and 90% of our patrimony has been stolen from us by the turks. We are in the situation we are in precisely because of the genocide and its consequential material losses.
As unfortunate as being economically controlled by Russia is, the turkish equation is one of their being a dominate force by using the economy to destroy Armenian culture, Armenian national imperatives and come to control the policies in Armenia which will alter the ethnic demographics of Armenia making it the last turkish province and destroying Armenia once and for all. We will be dependent on every piece of food coming from turkey. Why I believe these things will be could be explained in another posting if you have the questions.
I believe also we could have energy security, food security, military security and real independence. That is not a pipe dream. It can only happen within the context of soul penetrated understanding of our past. You young Henry must know your ancient patrimony, wherever it is in Greater Armenia and make that part of your consciousness. As much as I have been maligned on this site, the bottom line for me is if you dont know your past you dont know your future.
Never let this one idea leave your mind for even a second when you think about Armenian political subjects, the turks wish to destroy us and they believe nothing will stop them . The question is, Henry, what are you going to do to stop them?
Hey Avo,
You sound like so many other deluded Armenians who still think they ARE ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE while they dream of Western Armenian lands. You people always have an excuse when it comes to making the ROA a place for all Armenians to come and live life in normal, democratic conditions.
People like you are sadly mired in self-deception.
Henry Dumanian,
Your answer, attacking me after I have given a decent and respectful response to your arrogantly posed question, just shows what kind of a person you are. It speaks for itself. You either read my answer and were frustrated for the lack of irony this time around –I have noticed you do not have a stomach for irony– so there was nothing there that would warrant attacking me again, or you did not even bother to read it. In any case, you are truly now, in every sense of the word, someone unworthy of engaging in a debate. I put forth an idea, which would guarantee some impact to your ideas –a panArmenian congress or body–, to which you replied still insulting. You have just shown that not only you do not tolerate irony. You are simply incapable of engaging in debating ideas, probably because you have none. This debate has died out a long time ago & I see no further point in whipping a dead horse.
Ranchpar, I honestly had a more humble opinion of my impact on international geopolitics. You seem to be implying that it is thanks to me and people who think like me who are preventing a normal life in Armenia; or, alternatively, you think that it is because of me or people who think like me that Turkey is blockading Armenia; or that droves of Armenians are leaving the homeland. Wow! I didn’t know me and people like me had such a huge impact.
You know what? If I were to follow your logic –to call it somehow, for it has anything but logic to it– then it would be thanks to people like you that Armenia will evolve into a prosperous place, become a fully democratic country and have normal relations with Turkey. I don’t think so, “Ranchpar” (you scare many people with that name, you know? The Turks would rout before you if they just heard “Ranchpar” is coming!).
“The Story of Near East Relief,” by James L. Barton, 1930, Djemal Pasha brought 150,000 Armenians t0 Beirut and Aleppo according to his “Memories of a Turkish Statesman.”
“We are absolutely convinced that the policy of Russia alone was responsible for the enmity between Turkish and Armenian elements. .. . I did everything possible during the whole period of their deportation to give help to the Armenians….When after the deportations of the Armenians of Anatolia, the civil authorities received the command to deport all Armenians from Adana and Aleppo, I repeatedly opposed this measure…However, as I was convinced that the deportation of all Armenian emigrants to Mesopotamia was bound to cause them great distress, I thought it better to bring a large number of them into the Syrian vilayets of Beirut and Aleppo; I succeeded in obtaining the desired permission after I had made vigorous representations to Constantinople. In this way, I was actually able to bring nearly 150,000 Armenians to these vilayets.”
I bought this book and others in order to learn the history; and I will donate these books to the AGM. It would be nice to have these books digitalized for all to read, since they are rare and getting old.
Hasan Cemal does write nice articles which are published in Hurriyet. I did find this passage written by his grandfather, which I thought might be interesting to you.