Mouradian: Kars, Kars, Kars: Dispatches from Turkey (Part IV)

in 1915 only armenians not died, a lot of turkish killed.you know.I dont hate armenians and ı am turkish..But armenians must be optimistic because turkish is optimistic..Those events not finish…

Bloody armenians we turks will never recognize so-called armenian genocide. Since you are bad people, bad things happened to you and I am not sorry for you.

To Tolma Tumay — Bad things also happen to good people, you moron. Bad things happened to Armenians by the bloody hands of the Turks, because despite discriminating Ottoman laws with regard to non-Turkic, non-Muslim millets, heavy unjust taxation, humiliating limitations on electoral process, and constant destructtion of Aremenian communities by the Muslims (Turks, Kurds, and Circessians), Armenians were in a more dominant social position as compared to the Turks in terms of their skills, professionalism, education, mastery in arts, sciences, trade, commerce, banking business, and architecture. THAT is why you, nomadic outcomers, envied Armenians, and, like Nazis, decided to execute a final solution: exterminate all of them with no mercy or compassion. Who is worse: a Turkish butcher or an Armenian victim, you imbecile?

Robert — This Western given name doesn’t really fit into the rubbish that you’re mumbling. You’d be better off by inventing names for yourself from your “heroic” state founders like the Devil’s Advocates, as they’re internationally known, Tallat, Enver, Djemal, Kemal, and the like.
Dude, you either suffer from a fundamental reading comprehension problem, or you are ignorant and impudent to the extreme.

To: Armenian Christian

1) You talk about turkish government that erased and folsified Ottoman archives but you dont talk about armenian and other armenian lover governments who erased and folsified arhives (I mean french, soviet, american). So please be fair. If you dont want turkish archives to be opened open other archives dont afraid if you believe that the truth on your side. I have to notice that I dont claim anything. Just let the historians to do their work and the whole world will know the truth (whatever the truth is).
2) Represantatives of progressive humanity kill/killed people in Africa, Afganistan, Iraq, Algire, Vietnam and so on. And please dont tell me that this so called progressive humanity is fair. Why dont this progressive humanity represantatives talk about what  armenians did in Khojaly (Even your writer Zori Balayan wrote in his book about the armenian barbarism in Karabagh). And this is a new history, not in archives. Why dont this progressive humanity represantatives talk about what armenians did in Azerbaijan in 1915-1918? 

May be I am false but before claiming anything you have to have facts. And if you talk about late history you have to look at archives. Not only turkish and armenian archives to all archives about those days. Dont be afraid if you believe that you are right. Make a pressure on your government and on diaspora to do this (open archive).

To SG: I appreciate your comment and I think most of your views are correct. A couple of corrections for you to consider, though, regarding the second part. You write: “The whole nation might be* guilty for the tragedies* happened starting from 1915.” In this you seem to echo the same genocide denialist line as the rest of the Turks. Those were not tragedies. The world has already properly characterized the events as genocide, starting with Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin, who in the 1940s unambiguously labeled Turkish atrocities as genocide, i.e. deliberate, intentional, government-executed mass extermination of a specific ethnic, racial, and religious minority. In the case of the Armenians, the pain is two-fold, because not only have all of them been exterminated and deported, but, as a result, we lost our ancestral lands which we inhabited for millennia. Imagine the pain… As for some commentators using the word “barbarian,” it is, no doubt, incorrect to generalize, but this is what historically settled in the memories of the European nations: “a barbaric Turk,” based on atrocities that Turks have committed during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire onto the European mainland. Unfortunately, stereotypes are hard to overcome. As for ASALA, any manifestation of terrorism is unacceptable, but you forget (and I hope not deliberately) that ASALA’s cruelty was a RESPONSE to Turkish atrocities and not just a terrorist act committed out of the blue. Makes any difference for you? Hope it does…

BoyUn –
First of all, ‘Armenia’, ‘Armenians’, ‘French’, ‘Soviet’, ‘American’ are proper nouns and next time you write something somewhere do please capitalize them. I can understand that they teach you historical rubbish, disinformation, and historical facts’ distortion at schools, but don’t they teach you correct grammar at all? Or the grammar, too, is distorted in a typically Turkish way?
1)What exactly do YOU mean by “Armenian and other Armenian lover(?!) governments who erased and falsified archives”? Is this your superficial prejudgmental fantasy that if Turks could erase or falsify historical documents then it automatically implies that other nations, too, could do the same? Ugh… What a simplistic mentality. Without going further into detail, ask yourself a simple question: ‘Can multiple Western archives and international repositories all be false and only Turkish archives be truthful?’ Read this, if you will, at http://www.gomidas.org/forum/archives.pdf. This paper is an account of an ongoing controversy regarding the place of Ottoman archives in discussions of the Armenian Genocide. The paper argues that an “Ottoman archives debate” has been created by the Turkish state and its agents as part of an ongoing campaign in the denial of the Genocide. Drawing on the author’s personal experiences in Ottoman archives, the paper argues that Ottoman archives are not open to intellectually honest scrutiny, and that they nonetheless tend to corroborate Western records on the Armenian Genocide.
Armenian and Western archives are open, in fact, several years ago there was a Turkish researcher (I forgot his name but I’ll dig it for you from the Internet so you don’t accuse me of falsifying things), who came to Armenia and worked in the Armenian archives freely. We have nothing to hide, it wasn’t Armenians who committed genocide, mass murder and deportation, as well as deprivation of indigenious people of their historical homeland. The world knows WHO did this.
You write: ‘May be I am false but before claiming anything you have to have facts. And if you talk about late history you have to look at archives.’ Well, then go ahead and research your own archives pertaining to the period followed after the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allies in 1918. Turkey’s newly-organized government, headed by Ahmed Izzet Pasha, decided to try the leaders of the Young Turks and the members of the Committee for Union and Progress (CUP) for involving the Ottoman Empire in World War I and organizing the Armenian Genocide. The documents (encoded telegraphs and letters) attached to the Turkish Court’s verdicts attested to the fact that Armenians were not deported or massacred for security reasons. The documents collected during the Court hearings and attached to the verdicts proved that the Armenian deportations were aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population. This plan for “final solution” was perpetrated exceptionally on the initiative of the CUP Central with instructions and secret orders received from the centre. Go ahead, forget about Armenian and Armenian-‘loving’ nations and their archives. Look into your own archives in your own country regarding your own history. Don’t be afraid. And then make comments in this forum. I do hope you’ll make a pressure on your own government to recognize the truth that exists in its own archives. Isn’t your governmet  a representative of progressive humanity, according to you? Don’t’ be afraid.
2) By ‘progressive humanity’ I meant PROGRESSIVE not REgressive humanity, who committed and continues to commit atrocities in many places around the globe. I condemn any atrocity against fellow human beings, but instead of making attempts to divert the readers’ attention from other international instances of such atrocities, try to ask yourself: “Given this continuing international commotion that goes on for 95 years about the Armenian Genocide, maybe my nation, too, has done something very wrong?” Instead of concentrating your attention on others, try to answer the question, if you believe it was Armenians who committed atrocities in Khojaly (which no evidence supports, by the way): Why would that happen? What are the causes? May be the causes lie in Azerbaijani barbarism that was directed at Armenians BEFORE Khojaly in Azerbaijani cities of Sumgait and Baku, where Armenians were torched alive and killed with a typical Azero-Turkish brutality?
Lastly, for your information, it’s yet another Turko-Azeri forgery about Zari Balayan’s book, allegedly called “Revival of our Souls” and allegedly published in 1996. Here’s an extract from the statement made by the European Parliamentary Assembly for your information: “Mr Balayan is a prominent and distinguished Armenian writer and publicist reputed internationally for his humanism. Mr. Balayan has never written the book alleged or any other book the content of which or the quotations from which are presented in. It therefore represents an act of slander, which should entail legal consequences. This act of slander is particularly aggravated by the accusations of murders allegedly committed by Mr Balayan.” — Representatives of the Parliamentary Assembly.
Look into yourselves BEFORE looking into other nations.

to sivas
first of all this is a forum not a former platform…so every comment is concerned to own commentor first…it is not really important to write proper nouns or something properly here..but is is really interesting that you , like other armenians,  can impress your lie very forcefully …even in a grammar problem..turkish way is not a distorting one…but your way is a really stable one..you can still go on telling lie nearly 100 years…
when you are talking about hocali you can ask some questions to your acceptor…this is really good..but why you ask these really similar question to yourself…what happened in 1915..enver and talat wake up  and decided to kill all armenians…armenians were the parliementers , ministers, governors ,architectures etc  in ottoman empire…they were the milleti-sadika for the ottoman..then what happened suddenly…may be there were reasons ..may be the problem was death civil people, death women, death pregnants also death fetuses..like in hocali… why dont you ask this questions to yourself..
our government offers opening the archives meanwhile…i know that is is your professionalism please dont keep at demagogy …open all the archives
and lastly i am reaaly sory about grammar and poor english..but make sure that it is not about turkish distortion..

Dear Genocide Deniers:
 
I invite you all to read the opinion of the International Association of Genocide Scholars regarding the events that happened to the Armenian people at the hands of the Turkish government starting in 1915.  This is the worldwide body of all genocide scholars; the voice of academic scholarship specializing in genocide studies.  Let us see how serious you are about truth.
 
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf
 

Go Khan,
If Armenians are lying for 100 years and, as you personally think, will do so for another 100 years, I’ve got some questions for you and I don’t care if you make grammatical mistakes whether deliberately or accidently. I’ll still capitalize ‘Turks’ or Turkey’ because this is what we’ve been taught in Armenian schools. Anyway,
1)    If we lie, according to the official Ottoman census of the early 1900, there were roughly 3 mln Armenian subjects inhabiting the Ottoman Empire in 1915. According to your ‘truth-telling’ prime-minister Erdogan, there are just nearly 60,000 Armenians living in Turkey nowadays. Could you tell the readers of this site as to what could possibly happen to the remaining 2 mln 940 thousands?
2)    If we lie, according to the official Ottoman census of the early 1900s, there were some 3000 Armenian churches and monasteries across the country. How many, do you truthfully think, remained intact now after 1915, and what do you think could have happened to them? Note: if you respond that they were destroyed by earthquakes (a favorite Turkish lie), I’d use a derogatory word in response even at the risk that my comment could be removed by moderators.
3)    If we lie, how, in your truthful view, Armenian diasporas spreading all over the world have been formed and what, in your view, might possibly be the reason for them to be uprooted and live not in their ancestral lands in Western Armenian provinces of Bitlis, Kars, Van, Sivas, Diyarbekir, Erzerum, and others (that’s been re-named by the Turks to ‘Eastern Anatolia’), but in the countries they never previously inhabited, such as the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Britain, Russia, Georgia, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Greece, Cyprus, Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, and the others?
4)    If we lie, how, in your truthful view, could hundreds of thousands of bones of Armenians who were deported to the Syrian desert of Deyr Zor (which in 1915 was a part of the Ottoman Empire) and left there to starve to death, appear there and which are still found all around the place? If you answer that those could be non-Armenian, I’d refer you to numerous DNA tests proving their Armenian genetic origin.
5)    If we lie, how, in all truth that you admire, would you explain that after the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allies in 1918, Turkey’s new government decided to try the Young Turks leaders and the members of the Committee for Union and Progress for involving the Ottoman Empire in WWI and organizing the Armenian Genocide. The encoded telegraphs and letters attached to the Turkish Court’s verdicts that still exist in modern Turkish archives, attested to the fact that Armenians were not deported or massacred for security reasons. These documents proved that mass massacres and deportations were aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population. This plan for “final solution” was carried out in 1915 exceptionally on the initiative of the Turkish government.

Finally, Armenians were never allowed to be parliamentarians, ministers, or governors in the Ottoman Empire. Is this the truth that you so passionately fight for? They were made millet by the Ottoman regime, who had no right to run for the office or occupy high governmental positions. Maybe you wanted to truthfully acknowledge that Armenians were good entrepreneurs, bankers, poets, writers, agricultural developers, and architects? Yes, they were. But it didn’t stop the Turks to massacre all of them. What could be the reason, you ask? I think one of the reasons was the Turkish envy that Armenians were in a dominant social position despite all the limitations imposed on them for being non-Muslims. Nearly 80% of trade and commerce in the Ottoman Empire was in Armenians’ hands. The Turks also feared that Christian Armenians could unite with advancing Christian Russian forces on the remote Eastern fronts. But there were no fronlines with the Russians in the central and central-eastern parts of Turkey that were inhabited by the Armenians. So, like Nazis, the final solution to the Armenian Question that the Turks have found was heinous and ugly. Like Nazis, Turks decided to annihilate the whole race.

“Norman Stone” – whoever he is – has nothing to do with being  a reputable historian.  He works in Turkey, a country where it is forbidden by law to refer to the Armenian genocide – so much so that even people posting on this website from Turkey are gagged by the infamous Article 301.  So much for objectivity.
 
The International Association of Genocide Scholars is just what it says – THE international organization of academics who specialize in genocide scholarship.  The names on the letterhead are all famous Genocide scholars with top reputations.  Nobody ever heard of poor Norman Stone, who can only get a job at minor universities in Turkey.  I might be crazy too if I were in his shoes, and hard up enough for money that I would take someone’s cash in order to deny the murder of over a million people and be complicit in genocide by doing so.
 
You know, these comments are just pathetic by the genocide deniers . I’m sure you people must be paid, but my goodness it’s amazing how awful these comments really are.  I’d feel sorry for you all except for the meagre wages you must be paid to be here posting the insanely dumb remarks here.  Like — please tell me how objective an organization called the “Turkish Coalition” can be.  Are you kidding me?  Nope, probably not.

Janine
You are no different than your friend, I feel sorry for you. First of all, before you pronounce Norman Stone’s name you have to think twice. He has been working in Oxford University, second he has been political advisor of Margaret Thatcher. You probably dont know him or dont want to read him because he is not one of the promoted writers by diaspora. He has always been claiming that it was not a “genocide” before coming Turkey and after. So I am asking you like Mister Stone says in his article; why Algerian, Bosnian and Rwandan murders does not qualify to search for this so called association? Does it make him a person like me just because he currently works in a Turkish university? (you call it minor, i suggest you to check the background of lecturers in these universities)
About Turkish coalition page, I was 99% sure that you were going to say something about it. Well, it is only a page, a foundation that published Mister Stone’s article. You can read the article on other sources too. You are just being aggressive, attacking your opponent without questioning. I feel the sense of Anti-Turkism in your sentences just like many others here.
To Slvya
So these genocide scholar, their homeland is USA, Canada, Argentina… Did anybody killed their forefathers? They are also free to write whatever they want. You should stop ignoring how hard the diaspora working.
 
My final words, the solution between two countries can only be solved with a dialogue. I totally accept the death of thousands from both sides. You guys continue dreaming about western countries approvals on this claim, but it will not make any sense. Last years two countries started to negotiate but diaspora didnt want it to go any further. Most of you are full of hate, anger and your Anti-Turkism feelings are still growing. Whatever I say is wrong, doesnt worth to read or discuss not because it is right/wrong but because i am a Türk.
I wish you enjoyable discussions with each other. You can flatter each other here. I am sorry that i will not participate anymore because i know it is a waste of time to try  discuss in a patriotic website.

I read an article by Norman Stone in the Chicago Tribune in 2007 that was reprinted here by someone from Turkey in a post under the bones of the Der Zor article. I left a comment that I read the article and was surprised that there was not much notice or rebuttal to it by the Armenian community in Illinois, that I could discern in future issues of the newspaper, because at the time the genocide bill was before Congress and the Jewish lobby was being attacked for supporting Turkish denial. Being Jewish, with Armenian genocide survivors in the family,  I was initially iritated by the article because I thought it was biased.  Since then I have read a lot of history books.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the reason the Turkish murderers were let go at trial, was not because they were not guilty, but because Turkey was holding British prisoners as hostages (one whose name I forgot but who was mentioned in all my history books, an important British diplomat, and who ended up as a Turkish prisoner).  So Turkey used blackmail for a long time.  This is only one of the biased comments in the article.  However, since you are bringing up Norman Stone, I thought it was fair to mention that in my opinion, the article is full of historical mistakes and misinformation and bias.  Why?  Ask Norman Stone did he not mention the people found guilty were let go because Turkey threatened to keep or harm the British hostages?  

Thank you, anonymous.  I really appreciate your comment.  As you can see, the International Association of Genocide Scholars clearly represents the foundation of genocide scholarship worldwide.  It’s an interdisciplinary organization as well.  Here you can find a list of some of their current publications:
 
http://www.genocidescholars.org/bookspublications.html
 
It is all the more shocking as “Norman Stone” supposedly “worked” at Oxford and according to Gokalp, above, was Margaret Thatcher’s advisor.  How far the mighty have fallen then, to be at a second rate Turkish university that doesn’t even have a graduate program?  And to fail to mention the blackmail by kidnapping of his British compatriots in the foreign service?  Maybe there’s a reason he had to leave England.
Not too impressive, there, Gokalp.  Once again, Gokalp, I can only refer you to the true International Association of Genocide Scholars, rather than a Turkish lobbying group that pays people to say what it wants.  The academics in the IASGS are true scholars and represent the full body of genocide scholarship.
Gokalp, you cannot be taken seriously at all.  Nothing you write makes any sense and it  has nothing serious behind it.  “Dialogue” doesn’t exist for you, because you cannot take in the facts as they are presented.  “Mister Norman Stone” does not stack up against the full body of genocide scholarship.
 
 
 

I decided not to write anymore but you guys continue denying almost everything based on evidence.
Janine, my reply refers especially to you. How come can you throw stones over everything that is related to Turkey? According to you our universities are like a european kindergarden, right? We only learn to read, write and play games with each other. I dont like using ctrl+c and +v all the time as you do. Bilkent University is a very good university recognized by the world-wide organizations. A lot of students i know had been admitted to doctoral studies in Europe and USA directly after their undergraduate program and additionally many research programs are available. It is just to go their webpage and surf a little, please do it. You will see many articles and reseaches that are published in the international journals. Mister Stones new university, “Koc University” has also graduate and post graduate programs. You dont really worth to get this reply , it is a waste of time but let others read this so do not fool the rest of the visitors by saying “How far the mighty have fallen then, to be at a second rate Turkish university that doesn’t even have a graduate program?”  Also if you go to UK parliament archives you will see that Mister Stone has been UK prime ministers advisor. It is not according to me, according to world I guess.
When you write something, it would be nice to show some facts. Why Norman Stone wrote this articles and currently working in a Turkish university? Was he kicked out of UK or he liked Turkish culture, orientalism and life down there?
I dont expect a response from you or from anybody else because i dont want to waste my time here. There are some facts on this site but for most of you every Turkish is wrong and every Anti-Turkish is write.  An advise for you to keep in mind for a lifetime, “think before you write!”
 
 
 

Janine, my reply refers especially to you. How come can you throw stones over everything that is related to Turkey? According to you our universities are like a european kindergarden, right?
 
Koc University is a four year school; ie no grad program.    “Mister” Stone is teaching for one year back in Bilkent I see.  That makes him not a full-time prof but rather an adjunct.  Not stunning.
 
Gokalp, if you would actually produce something worth reading, I’d be most happy to discuss it seriously.  But the ravings of Professor Stone really are rather hate-filled.  Sort of like the way you paint what I write.  The problem is once again that the overwhelming scholarship that identifies the events of 1915 as genocide is just ignored by you — and unfortunately for you it is overwhelmingly the opinion of worldwide genocide scholarship.  You just can’t handle that fact.

Janine
I will not write anything but came back to correct your lie.
Here is Koc Universities Graduate programs in Science and Engineering.
http://www.ku.edu.tr/ku/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1033&Itemid=2191
 
If you search more you will find other departments too.
 
As I said earlier, think before you write!

Gokalp:
 
Your link doesn’t work, you who tell us to “think.”  I believe it requires a login.
 
What I read online was that it was a four year university.  There is not much information on its own website.  Perhaps what I read was wrong.  But if you need to continue to insult, then you are only showing how shallow you are.
 
As I said, the entire body of genocide scholarship in the world has overwhelmingly weighed in on this subject.   I am not impressed with the one person you cite nor his academic history, and especially the article you cited and the way it was written.  It is not scholarly at all.  It is written in inflammatory casual language not suitable for academic papers.  I suggest you go over the list of publications of members of the International Association of Genocide Scholars  for academic quality if you are not able to differentiate that from the article by Stone you linked here.
 
As for being “beaten” — I’m afraid you fellows simply don’t know what the full body of scholarship has already decided on this issue.  It is your side that has been beaten in academia.
 
 
 

PS I looked up Kos University at Wikipedia and saw its list of top professors.  I am even less impressed than before.  I realize you are in Turkey and that is what you have to compare to.  However, we are not talking about a worldwide pool of research; the paper you note cannot compare to the top levels of that in terms of scholarship.   What is clear to everyone here is how little you folks can present that shows either a willingness to dialogue or to accept scholarship on the issue.  And we’re all familiar with your hatred already, even before I started posting on this article.

Janine
The link works very well. I tested before i posted and you can see the lost of the graduate and post graduate programs there.
You are the one who is telling us how an academic artical or institution should be and it is you who is using “wikipedia” as a guide. Congratulations!  A webpage that can be changed by anybody and is not updated regularly. Instead of this way try to search on their website, dont worry it will not take so much time.

Janine,

You have many various freedoms in Turkey! We are not worried about your pathetic attempts to ultimately destabilize our country. We’ve stood up to the world’s scrutinty time after time. However, I challenge you to go to Yerevan and go on their TV an proclaim that there was no genocide. I’d like to see how long you are allowed to live? You may not be arrested, but how far (without a police escort) would you make it out of the studio? My guess would be, depending on if enough people viewed it, that you’d be mobbed and mutilated with a mile of the studio! After all Janine, a 98% purity rate in Armenia, accomplished by self-admitted ethnic cleansing of all non-Armenians, is nothing to be ignored now, is it! So, do you take my challenge (without pre-alerting the people of Yerevan that it’s a PR challenge stunt)? Put your money where your mouth is!

To the editorial board,

Are you going to allow this post to go through, or will it end up being censored, like so many of mine and others have been? Stay tuned y’all.

i really wonder why my reply to kharpet is not here…

Voltaire characterised the Turks as:
“tyrants of the women and enemies of arts”.
He also spoke of the need:
“to chase away from Europe these barbaric usurpers”
He accused the Turks of having destroyed Europes ancient heritage from :”the Orient’s Christian realm” and wrote:
wish fervently that the Turkish barbarians be chased away immediately out of the country of Xenophon Socrates,If we wanted……….. them.

The turk will never change its spots. Only the clothes wears to fool others.