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Mouradian: Kars, Kars, Kars: Dispatches from Turkey (Part IV)

KARS, Turkey—I arrived in Kars this afternoon and checked in to my hotel room. This was my fourth day in Turkey and I had already seen and heard a lifetime’s worth of outrageous things (and, to be fair, I also had many great moments). But nothing had shaken me—yet.

My first stop was the 10th-century Armenian Church Sourp Arakelots.

I looked at Kars through my hotel window. The entire city was looking back at me. A bare tree nearby with several crows perched on it caught my attention.

And there and then, I broke down in tears. A bare tree and a few crows had done what no one and nothing else had been able to do over the past few days.

My first stop after leaving the hotel was the 10th-century Armenian Church, Sourp Arakelots (St. Apostles Church) in the Kale Ici neighborhood. The church was turned into a mosque, now called the Kumbet Mosque.

I removed my shoes at the entrance (as required when entering mosques) and went in. A local was praying. After an initial hesitation, I silently said my Hayr Mer (the Lord’s Prayer).

It felt like I had never prayed before.

100 Comments on Mouradian: Kars, Kars, Kars: Dispatches from Turkey (Part IV)

  1. avatar Steve Kurkjian // March 20, 2010 at 8:21 pm // Reply

    The one time I was in Ani I felt as close to God as a person can get. Be careful there, Khatchig.

  2. avatar Janet Mouradian // March 22, 2010 at 3:01 pm // Reply

    I was there in Arakelots first time in 2001 with Srpazan Ashjian, and in 2004 with ARS, and 3rd time with a small group from Yerevan. We were not allowed inside the church, all 3 times, we prayed outside by the walls of the church.
    You are lucky to be able to get in.

  3. avatar bedros horasangian // March 22, 2010 at 3:29 pm // Reply

    Sireli paregam
    (in absentia)
    I was impressed a month ago when i read the novel “The snow” by orhan pamuk.  Something very strange it was inside and between the lines…in a kars today without armenians. may be one day you/ll write a book about ‘your’Kars. I am prepared to write some words about your work.
    with all my best regards
    bedros horasangian
    PS My grandparents werw ‘agntsi’, fron Agn, Eghine today. Turkey, of course.
    bh

  4. . . .hiastani Kars. . .my favorite song! My grandparents came from Kars (Karakala) where after 1918, Turkey took over the area with revenge and according to a great uncle, describes the scene of what happened to his parents and brothers at that time.
    It is just a matter of time before Turkey comes face to face with this situation. Too many Turks are discovering and admitting they have Armenian blood with some even converting to Christianity. Today, the younger generation are learning to think independently and are not afraid to challenge. Not all Turks hate Armenians. Interesting relationships can be established just on basic common interests.

  5. When are you going to understand that the only way to see Eastern Turkey is to visit  these places as a tourist?
    Shenora,
    You will discover that many armenians have Turkish blood. you guys lived among the Turks, not the Turks among you.
     

  6. Ahmet, when are you going to learn whose history you wish to claim as your own?  As long as Turkey needs to do that, then it is Turkey who needs the Armenians and lives on a lie.

  7. That is convoluted reasoning Ahmet. Many Turks have Armenian blood which is discovered on a growing basis in Turkey. Thousands of Armenians during the genocide alone were forcibly converted or chose to live as Muslims to escape certain death. Thousands or Armenian orphans were raised by Turks and Kurds. It was Turks who arrived into Asia Minor and conquered, slaughtered, raped and enslaved countless Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, Kurds, Georgians, etc. Armenians did not choose to live with Turks, it was forced on them. It was Turks and Kurds who use brute force against the Armenians and survived by a system of robbery and baksheesh against their Christian subjects.

  8. Ahmet,

    it’s the Turks that have the blood of Armenians and other nationalities that lived in the Ottoman Empire. Did you ever wonder why you don’t look like your Mongol ancestors?

    Armenians never wanted to mix with you. They didn’t rape your women,  they didn’t kidnap your children and force them to become Christian. In fact, none of the nations under Turkish rulers wanted to have anything common with you or have a piece of you. It’s the Turks who did all of the above.  Modern Turks have Bulgarian, Greek, Armenian, Assyrian, Croatian, Albanian and other blood.

    Also, when are you going to understand that the only way you can visit Artsakh is as a tourist?

  9. Ahmet, when will you learn your history and understand that Armenia was already there; you (turks) came in the 13th ceintury from central Asia, occupied our native land, tried to destroy our three- millenium old civilization, criminally tried to mix our blood with your blood in order to acquire our wisdom; but you are still the same uncivilized barbaric nation, you will never change, you are a hopeless case; you will knock at Europe’s door for another thousand years and no one will open the door;  your place is not there, that land is Armenian and Greek , you will have to go back to where you came from, you have lived far too long amongst us, you are no longer wanted on those lands; but we, Armenians are still here despite your genocidal intentions to destroy us; we have liberated Artsakh, and we intend to liberate more. 

  10. Ahmet, with all due respect, your words are arrogant and wanton…..
    You will discover that despite the calamity that has devoured my  family my blood is 100% Armenian. My grandparents come from Kharpert (Yegheki), Chomaklou, Kayseri, and  Cemikezek. If I return to Western Armenia it definitely will not be as a tourist. The house my grandfather built in Kayseri still exists. Label me at your convenience, but a tourist is the last thing I will be considered.

  11. Those days is very easy
    To know the origin of ethnicities,
    by analyzing the DNAs.

  12. Dear Ahmet
    It seems that you do not know your own history and what ever they teach you at your schools (If you gone school ,I dont know) are false and not the truth. Please go back and ask your elderlies thay will tell you the truth. Dear Ahmad could you ask yourself ,what does the 10th century church do in Kars which is converted to a mosk, have you ever seen a mosk with that desigen and constraction. Please go to the museum of Kars and ask about all what is there , please ask your elderly about that ,dont ask your History teacher, because he does not know like you. go and ask an old woman and (ask her to talk without fear,and tell her to say the truth) you will be surprised what she will tell you. Then you will find out that 90% of the population of Kars ,before 1917 were armenians , and do not be surprised that may be your grand mother was armenian . And sooner or later that city will  return to Armenia like the other parts of western Armenia ( what you call it now Estern Turky ) That day is not too far and prbobly you will see that during your lifetime.Please go and read the History books, but please find the real history book. If you can not find it send me an Email I will send you some . Thank you Mr. Ahmet sorry I dont know your last name to call you by that . We will meet some day in Kars and talk and you will find the Truth , 
    With best regards Vartan  

  13. Please don’t play games we will complain,
    are you paid by many to cleanse,
    let us know.
     
    Ahmad is the prophet’s Muhammad’s name; that arises from word ‘hamada’
    (to be thankful), but Turkish people write ‘Ahmet’, which is Turkish name and never Arabic.
    If they want to write properly from real origin they should write ‘Ahmad’
    it is not accepted to end by letter t or et.
    May be Ahmet is a name in Turkish and never Arabic of ‘Al-Quran alkareem’.
    Even if you put Ahmet in Internet, a red line will show underneath, that indicates rejection.

  14. Ahmet, I did visit Kars and fell in love with it. We thought we found the village of Karakala, but later realized there are four to five KK’s in the Kars region. In God’s time, I will return and continue the search.

  15. Ahmet…I have been to Turkey several times and I truly love all of it…from Sultanahmet Cami to Karatay Cami to Akhtamar church, etc, etc, etc. It is all amazing and wonderful, and we haven’t even mentioned restaurants or food or music, which are all exceptional… along w/ the raki!

  16. avatar Christian A. // March 23, 2010 at 5:13 pm // Reply

    Listen, Ahmet oglu –
    What you call ‘Eastern Turkey’ is historical Western Armenia that existed millennia before your nomadic Seljuk tribes came from the steppes of Central Asia to the area (known in geography as Armenian Plateau) in only 11th century and ruthlessly invaded and enslaved indigenous peoples who’ve been living in these lands for millennia. These ancient civilizations (Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc.) created world-renowned arts, sciences, architecture, trade and commerce. Everything has been scorched by the sword of your barbarian hordes, who only in 14th century established the prison of nations and sick man of Europe – the Ottoman Empire.
    Armenians were invaded by the Turks in the 14th century and had to live under their yoke up until 1915 – the year of Genocide. But instead of making stupid statements, try to ask yourself: where were Turks before the 14th century? If you find the answer from unbiased and non-Turkish historical sources, then try to ask yourself who lived on those lands as a master and who appeared there as an invader?

    As for ‘Armenians having Turkish blood’, please be aware that one of the barbarian methods of race extermination that the Turks performed during the Armenian genocide (along with burning and burying people alive, raping girls in front of their families, butchering men in front of their families, ripping off pregnant women’s bellies, killing newborns with bayonets, organizing death marches and deliberate starvation en masse), your barbarian savage forefathers also had a practice of converting scores of Armenian Christian children into Islam and selling Armenian virgin girls to your filthy Muslim harems. This is where many Turks might have noble Armenian blood.
    One last note. Actually there are two ways for Armenians to visit Western Armenia: 1)when Turkey finds the courage to recognize that in 1915-1921 the Ottoman government perpetrated genocide of Armenians and deprived them of their native lands; and 2)wait just another decade or two and see how your artificial state of Turkey, that was built on the lands of others with fire and sword, disintegrates into pieces.

  17. No worries, it is probably safer than any place in Armania :)

  18. Hey uha-ha-ha1, if you were writing your comment while thinking how in ‘safe’ Turkay intellectuals like Hrant Dink are shot in the daylight in downtown Constantinople, then think agai ( if you can) and re-write your comment…

  19. Armania? 

    … Never heard of such a place.

  20. avatar Grish Begian // March 24, 2010 at 1:01 am // Reply

    Ahmed,
    Why don’t you go and have a good “hamam” in AtaTurk famous bathhouse….you will refresh your Turkish blood line among Turks, while  having a good massage…

  21. As for the blood issue, Armenian or Turkish blood? Personally, I wouldn’t care what blood I have in my veins. Actually, who can claim what kind of blood they have. In this geography, intermarriages have happened over the centuries, and I like people of ethnic origins mixing with people from other ethnic roots. Remember, in the last century, millions of people fell victim to nationalism. I hope, the next generation will erase the remains of nationalism from the face of the earth.
     

  22. Dear Khatchig:
    I am very happy that in our Arakelots ancient Church you quietely prayed the Hayr Mer for yourself and you subsequently prayed for all of us here in the Diaspora too.  However I wholeheartedly agree with Steve’s comment above, please do be careful.  Truthfully, I prayed for your safety home and to come back to your family safe and sound, as one never knows in there what’s next.

  23. poor ahmet.
    he says one thing, and everyone attacks. we look like starved dogs ready to attack the first (and however insignificant) piece of flesh that speaks.
    they’re right- the new generation is more independent. turkey is trying to change. <trying> and <succeeding> are two different words however.
    but speaking to the article, it’s good- enjoy turkey- the places, try to see the people in a little better light than we do. we stereotype them when we shouldn’t. i’m ashamed of myself. they are humans too- no matter how wrong they are.
    i’m wanting to read more.
    thank you.

  24. All of us we need to analyze our DNAs.
    In Oprah’s  show Dr. Mohamed Oz  genes were analyzed and showed he had Jewish DNAs, although he him self knows that he is Turkish in origin.
    This indicates that there is no pure gene, we can have many types of genes.
    We should fight to protect humans’ right, that should be our duty and prevent every genocide every where before it starts.

  25. While all this history is very true and accurate, let’s not forget, time moves forward, not backward. For people to think they can or should turn the clock back 1000 years is a bit ridiculous.  Let’s face it…the milk was spilled very long ago folks. It can’t be put back in the bottle. Get used to it.  We have our azad Haiastan…let’s work to keep it that way.  Longing for something you can’t have and haven’t had control of for 1000 years is a bit psychotic, if you ask me.

  26. In addition to his sexual orientation, the ‘founder’ of the ‘modern’ Turkish state had a proven record of being of Jewish origin and a Freemason. What can we expect of millions more ordinary Turks who don’t even know their true identity. Such artificial ‘nations’ don’t last long in historical terms…

  27. avatar Shantagizoum // March 24, 2010 at 8:41 pm // Reply

    I LIKE GINA’S BRIEFING  AND KAREKIN’S   THAT  RATHER TRY TO EXPLAIN HISTORY AND TRUTH HIT THE RIGHT POINTS THAT   A H M E  T   UNDERSTANDS  BEST. THOUGH I UNDERSTNAD  YOU PEOPLE TRYING TO EDUCATE  HIM,YOU FAIL TO UNCERSTAND  THAT 70 YRS  TEACHINGS CANNOT BE ERASED  JUST BY THOSE  FEW /SEVERAL LINES  YOU WRITE.
    STICK TO STYLE  THAT GINA AND KAREKIN EMPLOY…
    AND DON’T FORGET-I AM IMPARTIAL-WHO MADE GREAT TURKEY AS  IT IS TODAY…
    THEYA RE COMPLICIT  IN CREATING  IT.I ONLY HOPE  THEIR “khers” DOES  NOT FLARE  UP…FOR  AT  THAT THEY ARE BEST.NONETHELESS THEY ALS WATCH T.V. AND SAW THAT  THE RRRRUSSIAN SENT UP MISSILES  WITH  3 TIMES  THE SPEED  OF SOUND.MS HILLARY NEXT FLEW  OVER TO DISCUSS DISMANTLING MORE  NUKES MUTUALLY…
    KEEP ABREAST  OF THE NEWS FELLAS LADIES…

  28. Ahmed,

    Giver yourself a break from your denialist government and go and read our sane Republic’s head of state Mr. Sarkisian’s message to the Syrian president in Der El Zor, where our nation was put the nail on the coffin in 1915.  Sarkissian is speaking the ultimate truth, NOT your Davutoglu.  Davutoglu is only continuing the denyalist trend of your nation and putting more shame on them.  The truth has prevailed already, get a grip on it.

  29. Dear Editors,
    I’ll thank you for publishing my two commentaries/posts above.  Thank you.
    Nairian

  30. Dear Khatchig,  Something came to mind now when you said above that you prayed the Hayr Mer in the Arakelots Church quietly to yourself today in 2010.  Whereas in 1915 when our beloved nation was being taken to ditches after being atrociously killed, many of them knowing ahead of time that they were about to be killed; they used to say the Hayr Mer quietly to themselves before their doomed death.  And many more women and girls after 1916 when they were taken away by Turks and Kurds and were forced to become Moslems, they would also say the Hayr Mer quietly to themselves.  Today your quietly praying our Hayr Mer in our Arakelots Church reminded me of what I have heard from my elders and what I read in numerous books, including in Aram Haygaz’ book.  It seems to me that nothing has changed since then.  

  31. What do you mean by 1000 years? The last Armenian statehood (Kingdom of Cilicia) ceased to exist in the 14th century, which makes it 700+ years, not 1000. But even after that Armenians existed under the Ottoman yoke in their historical provinces up until 1915. Have you ever asked Jews if they considered it psychotic to revive statehood  after nearly 2000 years on the lands long inhabited by the others? Have you ever imagined that Germans could apologize to Jews nearly 40 years after the Holocaust and provide reparations until the present day? Could you ever envision in your dream that the Soviet Union could collapse and Armenia could re-gain independence after 700+ years? Would you ever think that Nagorno-Karabakh could have become a de-facto independent Armenian state? Could you ever forsee that after 45 years the nation of Germany could re-unite? Would you ever think that America could enact a Civil Rights Act acknowledging its wrongdoings with regard to Afro-Americans and Indians? Did you ever predict that Kosovo could gain independence and that the nation of Georgia would be essentially been split into three separate entities? Nothing is psychotic with any nation because there’s no present and future without the past. We look into the past because in the present we didn’t get an apology for the past henious crimes that have been infilcted on us by the Turks. Is it too much to long for?

  32. avatar Armenian, and Proud // March 26, 2010 at 9:52 pm // Reply

    To: Resoman – Yeah, right. Ottoman and Young Turks were good at interbreeding their nomadic savage genes with the noble genes of other peoples: Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Georgians, etc. Of course, you’ll like it: so many ancient, civilized gnes and blood has been interbred into your barbaric Seljuk blood! And remember, in the last century millions of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and other Christians fell innocent victim of genocide in its typically Turkish, i.e. barbaric form of extermination. For the next generation to erase the remins of the genocidal treatment of the Christians by the Turks, your government will have to first acknowledge and apologize to the victims and their descendants. Remember! 

  33. it is really funny though to read some patriotic armenian comments. I understand the feeling of being poor and minority for centuries.
    1)Why Turks dont look like middle asians? /not because that Turkey Turks have been generated by greeks or armenians. It is because we come from Altay-Oguz family. Look at the portraits of founder of Ottman empire 1. Osman, Sultan Mehmet or Ataturk.
    2)The time period we are talking about is early middle ages. You cant compare todays world and that time. The whole europe were in war against each other. If you had the power, you would have invaded and controlled Turks but you were not strong enough to defend your own land.
    3)I accept the murder against armenians. It is so clear that thousands were killed during great war in anatolia. I feel sorry for the innocent victims. But if you ask yourselves why, the reason is clear. Ottoman citizens with armenian background betrayed their country with the goal of Great Armenia which was promised by russia and western countries. You cant deny this. Armenians killed many Turks while they were defending their homeland, so what Turks had to do? Just watch and wait to die with an armenian knife or bullet? If there was an ethnical cleaning process, kurds wouldnt exist today in Turkey. Only the betrayers were punished. but again i feel sorry for the children, women and innocent people who lost their life in the migration process.
     
     

  34. Turkey has jewish citizens, it is true. Some Turks lived by Hazar Lake converted to Judaism. We have christians also, yezidis, alevis and muslims. So does this make Turkey and its people a fake country? Than you should delete USA from map because its the mixture of world, also UK, France and Germany. Only countriess like armenia should exist and control the world that doesnt know multinationalistm, multi-culturalism.
     
    Maybe im greek, maybe i am kurd, maybe arab, maybe georgian, what does it matter? Turk means founder of Turkey so it doesnt matter what your grandfather was in 1525 as long as you love your country. We have also Turkish citizens with armenian background and they totally disagree with you. Not because there is a pressure on them or they cant speak. It is because they know that armenian diaspora is living on dreamland.
     
    And also todays armenia is the poorest christian country except africa in the world. Is it Turks fault or is it because you still dont know what economic growth is?
    Turkey is spending almost half of its national income to military to fight against PKK and compete with greek army. Turkey funds northern cyprus, Turkey doesnt have natural gas or oil resources or any other important reserves. It is only a productive nation. Although being out of EU, Turkey is the 18th biggest economy of the world.
    You have a strong enemy, just you know..

  35. Hello there,
    Having gone through all the ideas written down as views here on the news published, I couldn’t help myself of tearing as well.
    First of all, it is the fact that Armenians (the remaining of the Assyrians) were living in the region for quite a long time before the Ottomans invaded. In fact, the Armenians were on highly remarkable position in economy and social way of living than the Turks (with mostly the Kurdish ethnicity) in the area today.
     
    The Armenians were and still are good on business, making any kinds of things as manufacturers, buildings and a lot more issues than the Ottomans and the Turks. Because Turks were some are still not civilized as the Armenians. This is the truth.
    Nevertheless, we as the Armenians and the Ottomans / Turks had lived and still are living with no problems. History and the living creatures are clearly witnessed to that. Surely, the Turkish journalist with Armenian ethnicity was assassinated in Istanbul. As a human being, I do not want to or hear such a barbaric approach to anything in the future.
    In the past, it is today apparent that with the others’ (you may now easily notice who they are) guidance, some mistakes had been carried out from both sides.
    To be frank, the Armenians were very much supporters of the Ottomans for quite a long time until they notice and it become clear in visage that the Ottomans were not in the position to defend themselves. Even though, the Armenians enrolled in the Ottoman Army to defend their land.
    The Armenians as traders and backbones of the Ottoman economy were weakened due to the fact that they were taken to the army as obligatory military service; the Armenian women took the economic responsibilities instead of their men.
    The situation in the lands of Ottomans was not describable in these lines so simple and short.
    Nonetheless, some of the Armenians were to choose a way for their future as Greeks, Bulgarians and many others. And some undesirable occurrences took place. We shouldn’t judge with today’s situation considering the fact of those days in the past.
    From both sides some did do or did have to do something and we are now facing with this situation. We are to bear this as well, the places, where Armenians were forces to move as a temporarily, were also Ottomans’ their own lands (presently Syria and Lebanon, those who are in Armenia demanded to be and those who are presently in Europe some escaped and some choose to be).
    Whatever the cases in the past were, we all should respect the history and being the same and unique history family members, I do like to keep friendship and good relations with Armenians from whom I do personally learned a lot and who I do respect as my sisters and brothers.
    Please go ask all the historians and social scientists the affects of the geography. We are at least neighbors. We may sometimes not agree on an event but we are to live in the same area.
    Consequently, I do not want be accused what my or your grandfathers do, but I do want to be friendly as France-Germany or France-England manage to do.
    Respectfully yours.
    Isaac
     

  36. I as a turk can tell you one thıng neighbours with this atitue you can get nowhere some of you stıll thınk those lands wıll be gıven to you ıts true that ther wre greeks and armenıans before we came to anatolıa but does that change the truth that its our homeland now turkeys borders are regocnızed ınternatıonally dont you know that? throughout the hıstory many places wre took and lost by various natıons but at the end ıt can only be a one natıons place that ıs the case ın eastern anatılıa so is in istanbul aka constantınapole you can freely come and vısıt your old lands but belıvıng turks wıll hand over them ıs just madness both natıons problem ıs that the fed theır youths wıth natıonlıats propaganda I met an armenıan friend in usa after fınd out ı was turkıhs he strangely looked at me and said you are a good turk he dıdınt even know anythıng about us just what he heard from hıs grand pa’s and  his schools before ı end my post ı want to say one last thıng what happened ın the past was very bad alot of turks and armenıans murdered ı am just tellıng ıf you show some good wıll ı assure you wıll get more ıts your choice off course

  37. One simple question: Why dont armenian diaspora and armenian government deny to open all archives and to establish common history commission??
    Please answer just this question…

  38. Even this poem cannot end the story of Kars!
    ___________________________________

    How Many Souls Can Humans Mourn?

     

    How many souls can humans mourn?
    How many mourns sow?
    How many mourns unsown?
    One, two, three, four, and many more!
    Ageless, young, old, some unborn!
    What lament? How many more?
    Mother, father, sisters, brothers,
    And many, many, many others.
    Uncountable, unlamentable, ungrieveable.
    All are vanished, no bit is left.
    Not even a piece of handkerchief
    To wipe the tears silently wept.
    Eyes, ears, soul, spirits,
    Full of dreads, terrors, horrors, fears.
    Some say all lies,
    Nobody can kill so many lads.
    Many babies,
    Many brides,
    Many mothers, grannies,
    More than cats, dogs, sheep, cows.
    All done by butcher’s hands, feet, mouths, as well
    With other hidden organs, soaked sinfully in blood,
    God created spirits; yelled almighty’s name till sighed
    After, vocal cords dried, of moist, of lard.
    Innocent children were singing just few days before,
    For Pashas to live long [Yasha, Yasha our dears,our pashas]
    Pashas lived to slash innocent singers’ throats
    No voices heard yet to lore in courts.
    Yasha, Yasha our dears, our Pashas]
    My mother, Viva (Victoria) sang in tears,
    I learned Turkish from her indoors.

    Today I’m poeting insightfully
     
    Easing


    her sourness in cores!
     

    Deny, deny, and deny . . . all lies.
    Turks continue to stress, emphasize,
    “That was done by our unknowns, not human.
    With criminal, scavenger’ hands.”
    We are proud of what
    We have done in the past.
    We are Turks. We are Ottomans.
    Our adamant law must never be panned.
    We kill the way we like.
    No one can break our pike.
    Even if others dislike,
    They must comply like us, and like.
    If anyone objects our way,
    Can go to any hell they ray.
    The doors are open there to pray
    We are Turks; everyone must us obey.
    And follow our rule that’s our say.
    Even things seem never blue but grey.
    We must deny every crime and pray—
    Insist to join the EU’s democratic parades.
    To live the way we like, they do.
    In our land, we behave
    The way we have always had;
    We can never change till depart.
    Everyone knows
    We have Ottomans’ brain—hands.
    We never believe in freedom of speech.
    We are not born French, democracy in us can’t preach.
    Our tongues should deny and lie.
    We can cut every tongue red, white, black.
    Scimitars… we carry with pride—
    Hidden, yet ready to shine; even in dark.

     

    We will continue to slay forever-again.
    Those who denigrate Turkishness.*
    In spite of this, who is real Turk man?
    Of course, all Frenchmen; hence, Europeans.
    Kurds and Armenians did not exist and never will.
    They are only names in a thesaurus dear—
    They all vanished, never been renowned,
    Who are, from which space entered in count!
    Kurds are Turks of the mountains,
    Armenians forgotten in unknown terrains,
    Existing before the pharaohs, never after then;
    However, they have never been in our field of domain.
    Their lands are ours they have all vanished.
    EU countries should know our deeds!
    Turkey is our land, only Turks, in resides.
    Our skin is white, covering cyanotic blood,
    Our hearts born dark; this is our way to last!
    We will enter heaven by our scimitars!
    We will never see hell! We’re born Turks in every cell.
    We can kill till we invade EU lands and stay in their care.

    Able to change heaven to hell
    And settle always haughty there;
    As far as no Armenians, breathe at pier,

    Yet like to see their corpses as peer!
    ___________________________

    * Turkish writers prosecuted for denigrating Turkishness like:Orhan Pamuk,Taner Akcam, Cokham Gencay, Baskin Oran, Sehmus Ulek, Murat Yatkin, Ismail Besikci, Omer Asan, Perham Magden, Murat Belge, Murat Pabuc, Elf Safak, Ismat Barkan, Elyas Aktas, Ahmet Altan, Ipek Calislar, Dr. Haluk Gerger, Erol Katriciolgu, Haluk Sahin, Hasan Cemal, Biol Duru, Ragib Zarakolo, Radvan Kisgin, Faith Tas, Kamal Kerncsiz, Abdulla Yalmaz, Attila Yayla, Hrant Dink .

    Among them are females: Elf Safak, Perham Magden, and Ipek Calislar. The Justice Ministry recently revealed that 1,700 people were tried under Article 301 in 2006.
    The best known cases have all involved comments on the Armenian massacres (source BBC)

    Arat Dink (son of Hrant Dink).

    Arat Dink (son of Hrant Dink).

     

     

     

  39. wow. racists.

  40. avatar Armenian Christian // March 28, 2010 at 11:07 am // Reply

    To: BoyUn — Because 1) Turkish government has erased most of the Ottoman archives that pertain to the preiod of the Armenian Genocide 1915-1921. The ones that are open for research, based on witness accounts of respectable European and American historians, are falsified and distorted; and 2) Because there is no doubt in the minds of  representatives of the progressive humanity, as well as increasing number of foreign parliaments, governments, the European Parliament, 44 states of the U.S., International Association of the Genocide Scholars, leading human rights organizations, historians, and internatinal lawyers that what Turks did to Armenians under Bllody Sultan Hamid and especially under the regime of Young Turks in 1915-1921 was a vivd example of race extermination, read: the GENOCIDE. And the sould of those innocent victims as well as modern generations of the two parts ONE Armenian nation: citizens of the Republic of Armenia and Diasporan Armenians who are direct decsendants of those who were deported, expelled, or survived the barbaric atrocities by the Turks. There is no need to establish commissions on undeniable historical facts, and sooner or later your government will be forced to acknowledge the truth that you’re trying to avoid for 95 years. Make no mistake!

  41. To Anton: CORRECTION — The lands that were inhabitted by the Armenians and the others before nomadic Turkish tribes arrived to the Armenian Plateau in Asia Minor and established their filthy Ottoman empire in only 14th century A.D. have been deliberately emptied by means of race extermination in the early 20th century by the Young Turks. This is divergently different from taking or re-taking others’ lands that indeed happenned in history, BTW, most recently in Cyprus when half of the sovereign state was invaded and occupied by the Turks. Invasions and take-overs are one thing, but when take the others’ lands by wiping out the whole civilization is nothing else that Genocide. Adn Armenians will neve cease to demand that the Turkish henious crime against humanity be acknowledged and the process already goes on. Try to understand the difference.
    As for international borders, again, the borders of Cyprus were also internationally acknowledged. Did it stop the Turks to occupy the island which is other people’s land. Well, Armenians long for THEIR lands, their historical, ancestral lands, NOT the lands of the others.

  42. Gokalp – What your ethnic ‘diversity’ truly represents is that for centuries Turks have been implementing the policy of forced racial, ethnic and religious interbreeding and integration. This is how the world perceives it. Try to comprehend: when a people is of nomadic origin that settles in the land of other, much more ancient peoples, by means of sword, fire, and barbarity, as your forefathers have done, they begin to forcefully incroporate, convert these indigeneous peoples into their newly-established entity. In addition to barbaric race exterminations, death marches, unutterable tortures that no human being can imagine that fell upon the Armenians, you also had a wide-spread pratice of selling Christian girls to Muslim harems, converting Christian children to Islam, forcing men and women to convert to Islam under the threat of death. I repeat, it was a wide-spread practice that went on for centuries and that affected many indigenious nations that lived long before your savage Seljuk tribes arrived from Central Asia. It is divergently different from a typically immigrant countries like the U.S., Canada, or Australia – these lands were mostly uninhabitted (not counting small pockets of Indians or aboregenes, of course). Whereas your tribes invaded one of the most populated, inhabitted areas on the world map. And you just found a simple solution: you exterminated all the rightful masters of that land.  This is what you call ‘multiculturalism’ Turkish way? Armenians faced it in the most atrocious, barbaric method of extermination and are still awaiting an apology from all consecutive Turkish governments. Armenians believe that it’s nearing: increasing number of foreign parliaments and governments accept the undeniable truth of Armenian Genocide, leading genocide scholars, historians, and international lawyers, as well as dosens of Turkish intellectuals, have no doubt whatsoever that Turks exterminated many ancient races inhabitting the Ottoman Empire as masters, the most tragic of extermination campaigns being the genocied against ethnic Armenias. Wars are a different thing in human history and I’d like to omit the reasons and circumstances surrounding them. But ethnic annihilation of a race as a part of an Ottoman government-planned, government-executed campaing is a TOTALLY different thing. There was no war front in the peaceful Armenian towns and villages in Western Armenia (that as a result of Turkish ‘multiculturalism’ you now call Eastern Anatolia), so just ask yourself why would your government wipe out peaceful people of one particular, targetted race en masse? This is not just murder during a war. Such cases have unambiguous and clear definition in the international affairs, theory, and practice: GENOCIDE, i.e. deliberate, government-planned extermination of a speciific racial, ethnic, or religious group.
    As for your knowledge of historical circumstances that led to Armenian uprising against the Ottoman Turks (which you call ‘betrayal’ of ‘their’ country), I wish you could read more and in non-Turkish sources. First, Empires, whether Ottoman or British, or Soviet, for that matter, are never considered ‘their’ countries by the indigenious peoples who’ve been invaded and enslaved by outcomers. Second, uprisals that you call ‘betrayals,’ happen throughout the history in any empire. In the Ottoman empire, scores of ethnic uprisals happened — people just wanted to free themselves from the Ottoman yoke: Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks, Arab nations, etc. Armenians were not an exclusion, they longed for their independent homeland for centuries. They lost their the last kingdom in the 14th century becoming subjects of the Ottoman empire — historically known as ‘prison of nations’ and ‘the sick man of Europe.’ For some, it’s betrayal, for the others, it’s national liberation struggle on THEIR own lands. And I admit that based on words of the Western powers and Russia Armenians were promissed Greater Armenia. And I see nothing harmful in a nation’s desire to restore statehood that they’ve lost because Armeniasn were not claiming other nations’ lands, they just wanted liberation from a Turkish yoke. However, the response against the Armenian national aspirations that the Turks executed was henious by magnitute and barbarity. Your forefathers chose not to isolate or imprison the leaders of the revolt, but to exterminate the whole Armenian population: innocent men, women, children and the elders, to wipe out the whole ancient civilization, to deprive Armenian subjects of their historical homeland. Try to appreciate the difference, if you can. By means of a national liberation revolt 3 mil Armenians couldn’t kill the Turks ‘by knife or bullet,’ who exceeded Armenians in number, power, and dominance of the state machine. This is a ridiculous argument which also answers your question as to why Armenians couldn’t defend themselves during the Genocide. Because you chose to kill unarmed, defensless people. This is an expression of a  typical Turkish cowardice, your wolf-like nomadic behavior when multi-million hords attack the minority.
    And yes, in historical terms, it’s also a Turkish fault that the remaining part of Greater Armenia, the Republic of Armenia, is now economically developing country, although the real reasons lie in the fact that the country has become independent just 18 years ago and still struggles to establish and maintain viable economic infrustructures. As a result of the Genocide we lost fertile lands in Western Armenia where Armenias, despite discriminatory Ottoman laws against the Armenian millet, unbearable taxation, forced military service, pogroms and invasions by the Muslims on Armenian villages, esteblished them as remarkable enterprenuers, commersants, bankers, agricultural developers, as well as achieved mastery and brilliance in poetry, literaute, architecture, trade and commerce. All has been wiped out, what has not has been left in the Soviet Union, a small portion that is now the Republic of Armenia. But don’t fool yourself with the state of Armenia’s economy, even outside of their nation-state Aremenians are world-renowned for their excellence in business, trade and commerce, arts and sciences. It’s in our ancient genes, and we belive that the time will come when they’ll serve our greater homeland.

  43. OMG!!!
    Armenians know a lot more than anybody in the world. The comment page is like the best encyclopedia i ever seen. Soon i will start to believe that it is armenians who created the civilization, democracy, algebra, science, philosophy. And also they builded the pyramids in egypt, Eiffel Tower in Paris, and 7 star hotel Burj el Arab in Duabi.
    Try to be more logical before you say something. Turks came later to anatolia so does it mean that they have to go back to middle asia? Ok, if so called americans go back to europe, if hungarians, finland go back to siberia, Turks will accept to return their motherland.
     
    About Cyprus, what do you know about that island? What happened, how happened, who did what? Do you know the name Nikos Sampson? A greek dictator with ultra-nationalist goals. Turkey didnt conquered only cyprus, but also removed the greek government and brought back democracy to greece.  There are thousands of articles written about it. Try to search and read some history about 1960s cyprus. And try to be objective when you read it, i know it is impossible for most of you because greeks are orthodox christians also.
     
     

  44. Well, the history has shown the other side of the medal. Your so called peaceful armenian nation has been funding pkk, the armenian government allowed terrorist kurds to reside in armenia eventhough since the begining kurds are also blamed to massmurder armenians in earl 1910s. Bloody terror group asala has been killing innocent diplomats in usa, france, germany…
     
    Just keep in mind before you responde my comment..

  45. Gokalp — In none in my comments have I remotely alluded that ‘Armenians know a lot more than anybody in the world’ and that it was ‘Armenians who created the civilization, democracy, algebra, science, or philosophy”. This is below Armenians. I just tried to represent a side of the issue of the Armenian Genocide and its historical prerequisites that for 95 years haunts us and is widely shared by the civilized world. I’ll have to repeat: the actions of the Turkish government against Armenians and other Christians during the reign of Bloody Sultan Hamid in the 1890s and the regime of the Young Turks in 1915-1921 constitute a genocide – a crime against humanity that’s being shamelessly denied by all consecutive Turkish governments. These governments brainwash individuals like you, distort history, revise archival evidence, and keep progressive-minded Turks in fear for insulting Turkishness if truth about genocide is revealed by means of imposition of Section 301 of the Turkish Penal Code.
     
    Armenians didn’t create civilization, arts or sciences, but they contributed heavily into these areas. And this is by no means an expression of nationalism or national uniqueness; it’s a fact that any nation would take pride of. And I don’t have a small-mindedness to claim that Armenians built Egyptian pyramids or Eiffel Tower. But we built many other architectural marbles that’s been barbarically destroyed by your forefathers in Western Armenia. Some ruins still remain and even destroyed they’re still magnificent: go to Ani and judge by yourself. What is illogical that you found in my comments? Statement of facts is illogical? Or you’re just envious that Turks have never excelled in producing anything valuable or contributing uniquely to the human civilization? I tend to believe, and I’m sorry to say this if I hurt your feelings, that this complex of inferiority of the Turks has played perhaps the major role in exterminating the Ottoman Armenians. 80% of trade, commerce and banking business was in the hands of Armenians in Turkey, many Armenians traveled to leading European universities and excelled there, developed arts, literature, created unique architectural structures, maybe not as monumental as Egyptian pyramids, but still picturesque in their own beauty.
     
    And I by no means propagated that you return to where you belong in Altay and Mongolian steppes simply because I understand that migration of such a magnitude is impossible. What is required from you is to apologize to Armenians for wiping out their Western Armenian civilization from the face of the Earth. But you, as cowards, consistently deny to repent and this is exactly what Armenians and the increasing number of foreign governments urge you to do, if you consider yourselves slightly advanced from your nomadic origin and towards a more civilized, truly secular nation.
     
    As for Cyprus, I have enough general knowledge to add my voice to the voices of international community: what Turks did in the 1970s was clearly an invasion of a sovereign state, and no childish excuses of “what happened, how happened, who did what” can justify the inexcusable meddling in the domestic affairs of an independent state of Cyprus and Turkey’s explicit military intrusion into the territory of a sovereign UN member-state.
     
    Lastly, I’m not aware of your unfounded accusations of Armenia funding the PKK, and that the Armenian government allowed Kurds to reside in Armenia. Yes, there’s a Kurdish minority residing in the republic from ancient times, but one must have compelling evidence that all or some of them are terrorists. Kurds are, indeed, known to having taken part in the Turkish government-sponsored genocidal campaign against Armenians, when Turks instigated Kurdish bands to kill and rob starving and destitute Armenian women and children, attacking them from their back during the Turk-organized death marches. History knows that as well.
    As for ASALA, no terrorist actions are justified, but you have to construct a reason-consequence connection in trying to understand their actions. Killing Turkish diplomats in the 1970s and 1980s in some European countries was retaliation against a heinous crime committed by the Turks against the Armenian nation. Please consider reasons, if you can, before you write about consequences…

  46. I dont have time to write a respond but please dont hesitate to read this link.
    http://www.armenian–genocide.com/2007/10/norman-stone-genocide-lies-are-based-on.html
    Written by Norman Stone, a history professor from UK, excellent career, has been working as the political advisor of UK prime minister between 1987-1990.

  47.  For every writer on this site and others:

    “When you read please analyze, if you can’t
    your brain cells might transform a photocopy device.”
                                                                  Sylva-MD-Poetry

    Does Mr. Norman Stone knows more than Prof. Taner Akam, Orhan Pamuk and many intellectual Turkish writers?
    Stone came to Turkey to enjoy his life, were he was spoiled by rich Turkish students who enter university to get just a degree!

    Please read what Sir Edward Heath said about him:
    When Norman Stone was professor of modern history at Oxford, Sir Edward Heath is reported to have said of him, “Many parents of Oxford students must be both horrified and disgusted that the higher education of our children should rest in the hands of such a man.” The Oxford University Students Union passed a motion condemning him, after he wrote a newspaper column opposing the idea of homosexual marriage, as a “racist, sexist, homophobe”. The horror ran both ways: asked, on his departure from Oxford, why he was taking a post at a Turkish university, Professor Stone told the press that the students there were “less smelly and more attentive”.

    There are more to read and analyze!
     
     

  48. avatar Sylva-Md-Poetry // March 29, 2010 at 1:55 am // Reply

    Please correct Orhan Pamuk
    and not Pabuk
    Thanks

  49. God bless Azerbaijan.And we are always together with them.

  50. I like my Armenian friends in TR and indeed no problem between Armenians who lives in Armenia. But Diaspora wish and like these applauces. Cause they love only USD,CND and Euros..

  51. Yeah, Azerbaijan is the same Turkic tribe that never existed on the worldmap before the 20th century and that has stollen his name from the historical Iranian province. God cannot bless a country that, similar to their barbaric ethnic brethren of Turks, treats non-Muslims byrace extermination, as shown to the world in Azerbaijani cities of Sumgait and Baku in the late 1980s against the Armenian residents… Similar wolf-like savage behavior. And God never blesses the murderers, at least in the Christian faith.

  52. in 1915 only armenians not died, a lot of turkish killed.you know.I dont hate armenians and ı am turkish..But armenians must be optimistic because turkish is optimistic..Those events not finish…

  53. Gökalp,

    WOW!

    1. “Soon i will start to believe that it is armenians who created the civilization, democracy, algebra, science, philosophy. And also they builded the pyramids in egypt, Eiffel Tower in Paris, and 7 star hotel Burj el Arab in Duabi.”

    No one claimed that we created or built any of the above.  However, Armenians did create a lot, if you care to know.  Have you ever wondered who built those beautiful palaces in Istanbul that Turks so proudly show to tourists? Have you ever heard of the Balyan family of architects? Did you know how many of the historical buildings were designed by the members of this Armenian family alone? Dolmabache, Beylerbeyi, Ciragan … 

    Have you heard of Mimar Sinan, the most prominent Ottoman architect? I bet you don’t even want o know that he was of Armenian ethnicity.  

    The ancient Armenian capital Ani has been featured many times in the international press as the “magical city of the 1001 churches” and an architectural gem. Sadly, it is totally neglected by your government in an effort to completely erase anything related to Armenians.

    Check to see what Zulfu Livaneli, a prominent Turkish poet, says in “Turkey is the big secret of the West.”  I quote his own words: “Armenians wrote the most beautiful Turkish poems. Armenian architects built the most beautiful mosques and palaces in Istanbul.”

    As you can see, he has a very different view of the Armenians. He also does not suffer from the same insecurities as you do. You don’t have to make fun of others or try to diminish them to feel good about yourself.

    Tell me what the Turks built. Please don’t include any ancient Greek monuments or Assyrian monuments in Mesopotamia.

    2. “Turkey didnt conquered only cyprus, but also removed the greek government and brought back democracy to greece.”

    What does Turkey know about democracy? I suggest that you overcome your own problems with human rights and freedom of speech, first, before shamelessly occupying the lands of others. How can a country establish democracy elsewhere when its own citizens go to jail for speaking the truth? Did the Cypriots ask for your help to establish democracy?

     3.  “And also todays armenia is the poorest christian country except africa in the world. Is it Turks fault or is it because you still dont know what economic growth is?”

    First of all, Armenia is NOT the poorest Christian country in the world.
    Turkey has a lot do with Armenia’s economy. It has been imposing an illegal blockade for many years. I am not sure how well YOU would do in our position.

    Secondly, do you follow news at all? Do you know that there is no more Soviet Union and ALL former Soviet republics went through a very difficult transitional period? The only reason that your brother Azeris are not dying of hunger is because they sell oil. 
     
    Did you also hear that there was a devastating earthquake in Armenia in 1989 that caused lots of deaths and destruction?

    Second of all, Armenians have always done well economically, everywhere in the world. It’s just a matter of time. Don’t worry, we’ll be fine. 

    4. “Turkey is spending almost half of its national income to military to fight against PKK and compete with greek army. Turkey funds northern cyprus, Turkey doesnt have natural gas or oil resources or any other important reserves. It is only a productive nation.”

    WOW! I believe a lot of what you spent on your military is financed by the USA. Am I right? I pay lots of taxes (by the way I am doing quite well economically, in case you are interested), USA gives it to Turkey to keep the big army, and you are being so ungrateful, Gökalp. How can you?

    5. “Your so called peaceful armenian nation has been funding pkk”

    It turns out that Armenians aren’t so poor after all.

    6. And, by the way, christian, greek, cyprus, and armenia ar proper nouns. Next time start with a capital letter.   

    Regards.

  54. avatar Tolga Tumay // March 29, 2010 at 3:14 pm // Reply

    Bloody armenians we turks will never recognize so-called armenian genocide. Since you are bad people, bad things happened to you and I am not sorry for you.

  55. Gina,

    What are you talking about? Many of your “facts” are flawed! In your Point 1, you ask what has Turkey built? The Ottoman Empire lasted for over seven centuries (and that’s how Empires grow…by conquering others, like it or not). I believe that your Armenian Empire lasted a tad shorter than did the Ottoman, yes? As for your Point 2, Turkey is a secular democratic republic, has been since 1923. What part of this do you not understand? Contrast that with Armenia, who has one of the most corrupt governments in the world, who is the most religiously oppressed nations, has a poor economy and must rely on foreign aid hand outs just to survive, has been and still is a supporter of terrorism, etc. Perhaps these are just some of the many reasons why every month, approximately 6,000 Armenians flee in a mass exodus, from Armenia, many coming to Turkey to live (mostly as illegals). As for Cyprus, best that you keep your nose out of something that you OBVIOUSLY know nothing about! My oldest sister was raped and mutilated while visiting her friend in Cyprus in 1965 by the Greek EOKA-B, when they broke into her friend’s home!! She was only 14! So don’t even go there!! Your Point 3 regarding the earthquake of 1989. So? Turkey had a major quake in Istanbul with devestating results. It picked itself up and rebuilt, and DIDN’T WHINE ABOUT IT trying to garner sympathy! Nor did it demand an increase in foreign aid at the expense of others, as constantly does Armenia. In your Point 4…Gina, I’m a tax payer too. Show me where Turkey is ungratefull for anything, and don’t bother pointing to contrived points that are reactions to being stabbed in the back by a friend and ally (one whose congress cow-tows to the whim of a deep-pockets Armenian diaspora, with endless bribe money, yet shamelessly accussing every Turk with an oppossing view point as being a “paid agent of Turkey”)! Your Point 5 proves, via your snide remark, that Armenians are and always have been supporters of terrorism (PKK). Nothing new here (the world’s intelligence communities have long since known this fact, especially how collected money is funneled from Greek and Armenian orthodox churches to Syria and Lebanon, for ex-ASALA members to arm and train the PKK so that they can murder more innocent people). Gee Gina, looks like you’ve got a lot to learn, huh!!! Or didn’t they teach you this in AYF!

  56. To Tolma Tumay — Bad things also happen to good people, you moron. Bad things happened to Armenians by the bloody hands of the Turks, because despite discriminating Ottoman laws with regard to non-Turkic, non-Muslim millets, heavy unjust taxation, humiliating limitations on electoral process, and constant destructtion of Aremenian communities by the Muslims (Turks, Kurds, and Circessians), Armenians were in a more dominant social position as compared to the Turks in terms of their skills, professionalism, education, mastery in arts, sciences, trade, commerce, banking business, and architecture. THAT is why you, nomadic outcomers, envied Armenians, and, like Nazis, decided to execute a final solution: exterminate all of them with no mercy or compassion. Who is worse: a Turkish butcher or an Armenian victim, you imbecile?

  57. Robert or whatever your real name is,

    What part of it YOU don’t understand?

    What are millions of your countrymen doing in Germany and the rest of Europe? Why did they leave their “prosperous” country? 

    Your friend was talking about Pyramids and Burj al Arab, which are buildings, not empires. And yes, I am very curious to know (really) what, for example, you show to tourists as architectural pieces that were perceived and designed by people of your ethnicity (during the hundreds of years of your existence and by many tens of millions of you) that are in the same league as the ones built by others. 

    I can claim that genocide did not occur (I strongly believe that it did) if I want to on the Armenian TV and no one will send me to prison. Can you do the same in Turkey? 

    My point 5 does not prove anything. It’s just an answer to your arrogant friend to show the inconsistencies in his reasoning.

    A nation of 70 million is supposed to have a larger economy than a nation of 2.5 million. I thought it was quite clear.     

     

  58. avatar Armenian Ararat // March 29, 2010 at 10:06 pm // Reply

    Robert — This Western given name doesn’t really fit into the rubbish that you’re mumbling. You’d be better off by inventing names for yourself from your “heroic” state founders like the Devil’s Advocates, as they’re internationally known, Tallat, Enver, Djemal, Kemal, and the like.
    Dude, you either suffer from a fundamental reading comprehension problem, or you are ignorant and impudent to the extreme.

  59. avatar Tigranakert // March 29, 2010 at 10:17 pm // Reply

    To AlperT: We are ONE indivisible people, and the only reason there exists Republic of Armenia and the Armenian Diaspora worldwide (if you ever asked yourself that question) is because the Diaspora is a consequence of race extermination and mass deportation that your grandparents have committed in cold blood, mass murdering and expelling roughly 3 mln of the Ottoman Armenians from the lands they’ve been living for millennia. You may be having no problems with Armenians, if they’re Armenians it doesn’t mean they from the start hate you because you’re a Turk. The problem goes deeper than your superficial argument re people-to-people contacts. It is your government that denies the genocide for 95 years and avoids apologizing to Armenians for a henious, most barbaric crime against humanity — the Armenian Genocide. And let me assure you, more than everything the Diaspora Armenians in their third and even fourth generation love their ancestral homeland from which their grandparents have been deported and many more brutally killed by the Turks. But you may vontinue daydreaming that Diasporans only love money. Look what happens in a decade from now…

  60. To: Armenian Christian

    1) You talk about turkish government that erased and folsified Ottoman archives but you dont talk about armenian and other armenian lover governments who erased and folsified arhives (I mean french, soviet, american). So please be fair. If you dont want turkish archives to be opened open other archives dont afraid if you believe that the truth on your side. I have to notice that I dont claim anything. Just let the historians to do their work and the whole world will know the truth (whatever the truth is).
    2) Represantatives of progressive humanity kill/killed people in Africa, Afganistan, Iraq, Algire, Vietnam and so on. And please dont tell me that this so called progressive humanity is fair. Why dont this progressive humanity represantatives talk about what  armenians did in Khojaly (Even your writer Zori Balayan wrote in his book about the armenian barbarism in Karabagh). And this is a new history, not in archives. Why dont this progressive humanity represantatives talk about what armenians did in Azerbaijan in 1915-1918? 

    May be I am false but before claiming anything you have to have facts. And if you talk about late history you have to look at archives. Not only turkish and armenian archives to all archives about those days. Dont be afraid if you believe that you are right. Make a pressure on your government and on diaspora to do this (open archive).

  61. Having 22 years of Turkish people experience, I humbly suggest commentors here to not take people who are attacking and/or insulting Armenian nation seriously. Some Turks can make the veins in your temples swell and throb within 5 minutes into a conversation with them; it’s experience speaking. Though, don’t blame them for being domineering and ignorant. Blame them for believing anything they hear so easily, not seeking for truth, being unable to question because the stories you grow up with, hearing from your elders are everything opposite to what we had been taught in schools here. Unfortunately this nation has been raising brainwashed kids since forever. You can’t change these people by just throwing facts at their face. You need to let them understand what your ancestors have been through because they have absolutely no clue about that. Hence, keep it cool. Otherwise will only make you neurotic.

    On an irrelevant note, I find comments saying “Turks are barbarians. They are brutal and inhuman” and implying that we all are terrorists extremely unfair and hurtful. The whole nation might be* guilty for the tragedies* happened starting from 1915 but every individual in Turkey is not a coldblooded murderer. I could as well be a stereotype and say every Armenian individual is as cruel and out of control as an ASALA member. But it takes something less than human to murder someone and requires a person to be subhuman to torture a being to death. Just like the people who murdered Daniel Varujan. I know plenty people here who are finding it more and more difficult each day carrying a heavy conscience for being held in the same category with those subhumans and with the ones who are shamelessly and blindly defending them and yet unable to do anything that’ll lead to a resolution. Please try to understand that it’s lovely but kinda hard, living here with having views that are against majority’s. 

    *Article 301 censoring sugarcoating. I had to, sorry.

  62. To SG: I appreciate your comment and I think most of your views are correct. A couple of corrections for you to consider, though, regarding the second part. You write: “The whole nation might be* guilty for the tragedies* happened starting from 1915.” In this you seem to echo the same genocide denialist line as the rest of the Turks. Those were not tragedies. The world has already properly characterized the events as genocide, starting with Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin, who in the 1940s unambiguously labeled Turkish atrocities as genocide, i.e. deliberate, intentional, government-executed mass extermination of a specific ethnic, racial, and religious minority. In the case of the Armenians, the pain is two-fold, because not only have all of them been exterminated and deported, but, as a result, we lost our ancestral lands which we inhabited for millennia. Imagine the pain… As for some commentators using the word “barbarian,” it is, no doubt, incorrect to generalize, but this is what historically settled in the memories of the European nations: “a barbaric Turk,” based on atrocities that Turks have committed during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire onto the European mainland. Unfortunately, stereotypes are hard to overcome. As for ASALA, any manifestation of terrorism is unacceptable, but you forget (and I hope not deliberately) that ASALA’s cruelty was a RESPONSE to Turkish atrocities and not just a terrorist act committed out of the blue. Makes any difference for you? Hope it does…

  63. to gina
    you talk about dalyan family or whatever else family who made buildings in ottoman land…i think you suppose that ottomans or we the turks cannot make buildings…
    check your historical maps and see where we conquered for our ideas…an armenian cannot imagine even that lands…you may be take some lands when we are fighting against the other big nations…you or small nations like you will always live with dreams that enforced by the others…
    if we would want , we could have made better buildings ..but is not the point…the point is we are really greater than you  dude…

  64. BoyUn –
    First of all, ‘Armenia’, ‘Armenians’, ‘French’, ‘Soviet’, ‘American’ are proper nouns and next time you write something somewhere do please capitalize them. I can understand that they teach you historical rubbish, disinformation, and historical facts’ distortion at schools, but don’t they teach you correct grammar at all? Or the grammar, too, is distorted in a typically Turkish way?
    1)What exactly do YOU mean by “Armenian and other Armenian lover(?!) governments who erased and falsified archives”? Is this your superficial prejudgmental fantasy that if Turks could erase or falsify historical documents then it automatically implies that other nations, too, could do the same? Ugh… What a simplistic mentality. Without going further into detail, ask yourself a simple question: ‘Can multiple Western archives and international repositories all be false and only Turkish archives be truthful?’ Read this, if you will, at http://www.gomidas.org/forum/archives.pdf. This paper is an account of an ongoing controversy regarding the place of Ottoman archives in discussions of the Armenian Genocide. The paper argues that an “Ottoman archives debate” has been created by the Turkish state and its agents as part of an ongoing campaign in the denial of the Genocide. Drawing on the author’s personal experiences in Ottoman archives, the paper argues that Ottoman archives are not open to intellectually honest scrutiny, and that they nonetheless tend to corroborate Western records on the Armenian Genocide.
    Armenian and Western archives are open, in fact, several years ago there was a Turkish researcher (I forgot his name but I’ll dig it for you from the Internet so you don’t accuse me of falsifying things), who came to Armenia and worked in the Armenian archives freely. We have nothing to hide, it wasn’t Armenians who committed genocide, mass murder and deportation, as well as deprivation of indigenious people of their historical homeland. The world knows WHO did this.
    You write: ‘May be I am false but before claiming anything you have to have facts. And if you talk about late history you have to look at archives.’ Well, then go ahead and research your own archives pertaining to the period followed after the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allies in 1918. Turkey’s newly-organized government, headed by Ahmed Izzet Pasha, decided to try the leaders of the Young Turks and the members of the Committee for Union and Progress (CUP) for involving the Ottoman Empire in World War I and organizing the Armenian Genocide. The documents (encoded telegraphs and letters) attached to the Turkish Court’s verdicts attested to the fact that Armenians were not deported or massacred for security reasons. The documents collected during the Court hearings and attached to the verdicts proved that the Armenian deportations were aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population. This plan for “final solution” was perpetrated exceptionally on the initiative of the CUP Central with instructions and secret orders received from the centre. Go ahead, forget about Armenian and Armenian-‘loving’ nations and their archives. Look into your own archives in your own country regarding your own history. Don’t be afraid. And then make comments in this forum. I do hope you’ll make a pressure on your own government to recognize the truth that exists in its own archives. Isn’t your governmet  a representative of progressive humanity, according to you? Don’t’ be afraid.
    2) By ‘progressive humanity’ I meant PROGRESSIVE not REgressive humanity, who committed and continues to commit atrocities in many places around the globe. I condemn any atrocity against fellow human beings, but instead of making attempts to divert the readers’ attention from other international instances of such atrocities, try to ask yourself: “Given this continuing international commotion that goes on for 95 years about the Armenian Genocide, maybe my nation, too, has done something very wrong?” Instead of concentrating your attention on others, try to answer the question, if you believe it was Armenians who committed atrocities in Khojaly (which no evidence supports, by the way): Why would that happen? What are the causes? May be the causes lie in Azerbaijani barbarism that was directed at Armenians BEFORE Khojaly in Azerbaijani cities of Sumgait and Baku, where Armenians were torched alive and killed with a typical Azero-Turkish brutality?
    Lastly, for your information, it’s yet another Turko-Azeri forgery about Zari Balayan’s book, allegedly called “Revival of our Souls” and allegedly published in 1996. Here’s an extract from the statement made by the European Parliamentary Assembly for your information: “Mr Balayan is a prominent and distinguished Armenian writer and publicist reputed internationally for his humanism. Mr. Balayan has never written the book alleged or any other book the content of which or the quotations from which are presented in. It therefore represents an act of slander, which should entail legal consequences. This act of slander is particularly aggravated by the accusations of murders allegedly committed by Mr Balayan.” — Representatives of the Parliamentary Assembly.
    Look into yourselves BEFORE looking into other nations.

  65. I have written 2 replies to gina and another person but my posts were not published. Wondering why?
    I wrote the connection of PKK & Armenian Government & Diaspora. Abdullah Öcalan admitted everything during the trial in 1999. “They offered us money in exchange with making an action in Turkey’s big cities”. There are many other quotations of him regarding this issue.
    There are approximately 4 millions Turks living outside Turkey. Most of them are in Germany. They were not starving before they migrated but most of them were below the poverty line. It was Germany who invited them to rebuild the country. Migration is a part of todays world. There are many portugese,italian immigrants in switzerland.  There are many finnish immigrants in sweden. There are many swedish immigrants in norway. It is for work, for a better life. Because these countries were lack of labor force, keep in mind. My sentence that started this conversation was “Turkey is the 18th biggest economy in the world”.
    To the guy who says Turks are brainwashed. I really wonder how come can you say something like this? In religious aspects, yes we are brainwashed like the rest of the world. Christians, Jews and others. Do you think they start reading all the holy books when they are 7 years old and than decide the right way for themselves? This is the way it is for us and for the rest. About other issues, you can only claim the people that lives on the land, on villages can be brainwashed. This is todays worlds problem. They cant or dont know how to reach the information. It is same for Greek villages, Russian villages, some parts of USA.  Only countries like Japan, Sweden, Norway, Danmark, Switzerland could be “non-brainwashed” according to your description. In Turkey the people in the cities, officers, politicans, military stuff… can split the right and the wrong, know to ask why when it is necessary. But from your point of view Turks are brainwashed because they are muslim and they are Turks and they dont agree with you. I guess French people are also brainwashed, and USA citizens and Belgians because of ignoring what happened in Algeria, Iraq, Rwanda respectively.
    I live in Sweden and the parliament approved the claims with a lucky voting process. Swedish prime minister Fredrik Reindfeldt said that “This decision does not reflect the thoughts or politics of Kingdom of Sweden, we totally disagree with the parliaments votes and we are not supporting this case.” Mister Reinfedlt knows that the representatives who voted for YES are mostly from conservative christian parties. A kurdish girl also voted for YES. I checked her homepage and it stands that she was born in Bingöl, she calls it kurdistan on that page, and you guys call it Armenia , another contradiction.
    I also read discriminating comments against Roberts name. Well guys i have 100% Turkish friends whose names are Jenny, Mikael, Martin, and parents are Turkish too. What does it have to do with his name? I havent seen such a discrimination like this ever on the internet.
    If i meet a person and learn that he/she is armenian, it would only make me think that he/she is a foreigner just like french, english, albanian, japanese, nothing else. But when you guys meet a person and learn that he/she is turkish, you would escape as far as you can without trying to know him/her better. This is true, please do not try to justify your case with replies.

  66. to sivas
    first of all this is a forum not a former platform…so every comment is concerned to own commentor first…it is not really important to write proper nouns or something properly here..but is is really interesting that you , like other armenians,  can impress your lie very forcefully …even in a grammar problem..turkish way is not a distorting one…but your way is a really stable one..you can still go on telling lie nearly 100 years…
    when you are talking about hocali you can ask some questions to your acceptor…this is really good..but why you ask these really similar question to yourself…what happened in 1915..enver and talat wake up  and decided to kill all armenians…armenians were the parliementers , ministers, governors ,architectures etc  in ottoman empire…they were the milleti-sadika for the ottoman..then what happened suddenly…may be there were reasons ..may be the problem was death civil people, death women, death pregnants also death fetuses..like in hocali… why dont you ask this questions to yourself..
    our government offers opening the archives meanwhile…i know that is is your professionalism please dont keep at demagogy …open all the archives
    and lastly i am reaaly sory about grammar and poor english..but make sure that it is not about turkish distortion..

  67. Dear Genocide Deniers:
     
    Please read this letter from the International Association of Genocide Scholars.  That’s right, the full international body of all academics who study Genocide.  It is the antidote to a faulty defense of an indefensible crime.  If you can really accept the facts.
     
    http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf
     
     

  68. Dear Genocide Deniers:
     
    I invite you all to read the opinion of the International Association of Genocide Scholars regarding the events that happened to the Armenian people at the hands of the Turkish government starting in 1915.  This is the worldwide body of all genocide scholars; the voice of academic scholarship specializing in genocide studies.  Let us see how serious you are about truth.
     
    http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf
     

  69. To Bitlis: I am very much aware of the difference between the terms “tragedy” and “genocide” but I left a note at the end of the comment. If you are not familiar with Article 301, please search it in wikipedia. I’m forced to censor my words for Turkey, as Khatchig Mouradian wrote in this series, is ever changing :)

  70. Go Khan,
    If Armenians are lying for 100 years and, as you personally think, will do so for another 100 years, I’ve got some questions for you and I don’t care if you make grammatical mistakes whether deliberately or accidently. I’ll still capitalize ‘Turks’ or Turkey’ because this is what we’ve been taught in Armenian schools. Anyway,
    1)    If we lie, according to the official Ottoman census of the early 1900, there were roughly 3 mln Armenian subjects inhabiting the Ottoman Empire in 1915. According to your ‘truth-telling’ prime-minister Erdogan, there are just nearly 60,000 Armenians living in Turkey nowadays. Could you tell the readers of this site as to what could possibly happen to the remaining 2 mln 940 thousands?
    2)    If we lie, according to the official Ottoman census of the early 1900s, there were some 3000 Armenian churches and monasteries across the country. How many, do you truthfully think, remained intact now after 1915, and what do you think could have happened to them? Note: if you respond that they were destroyed by earthquakes (a favorite Turkish lie), I’d use a derogatory word in response even at the risk that my comment could be removed by moderators.
    3)    If we lie, how, in your truthful view, Armenian diasporas spreading all over the world have been formed and what, in your view, might possibly be the reason for them to be uprooted and live not in their ancestral lands in Western Armenian provinces of Bitlis, Kars, Van, Sivas, Diyarbekir, Erzerum, and others (that’s been re-named by the Turks to ‘Eastern Anatolia’), but in the countries they never previously inhabited, such as the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Britain, Russia, Georgia, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Greece, Cyprus, Venezuela, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, and the others?
    4)    If we lie, how, in your truthful view, could hundreds of thousands of bones of Armenians who were deported to the Syrian desert of Deyr Zor (which in 1915 was a part of the Ottoman Empire) and left there to starve to death, appear there and which are still found all around the place? If you answer that those could be non-Armenian, I’d refer you to numerous DNA tests proving their Armenian genetic origin.
    5)    If we lie, how, in all truth that you admire, would you explain that after the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allies in 1918, Turkey’s new government decided to try the Young Turks leaders and the members of the Committee for Union and Progress for involving the Ottoman Empire in WWI and organizing the Armenian Genocide. The encoded telegraphs and letters attached to the Turkish Court’s verdicts that still exist in modern Turkish archives, attested to the fact that Armenians were not deported or massacred for security reasons. These documents proved that mass massacres and deportations were aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population. This plan for “final solution” was carried out in 1915 exceptionally on the initiative of the Turkish government.

    Finally, Armenians were never allowed to be parliamentarians, ministers, or governors in the Ottoman Empire. Is this the truth that you so passionately fight for? They were made millet by the Ottoman regime, who had no right to run for the office or occupy high governmental positions. Maybe you wanted to truthfully acknowledge that Armenians were good entrepreneurs, bankers, poets, writers, agricultural developers, and architects? Yes, they were. But it didn’t stop the Turks to massacre all of them. What could be the reason, you ask? I think one of the reasons was the Turkish envy that Armenians were in a dominant social position despite all the limitations imposed on them for being non-Muslims. Nearly 80% of trade and commerce in the Ottoman Empire was in Armenians’ hands. The Turks also feared that Christian Armenians could unite with advancing Christian Russian forces on the remote Eastern fronts. But there were no fronlines with the Russians in the central and central-eastern parts of Turkey that were inhabited by the Armenians. So, like Nazis, the final solution to the Armenian Question that the Turks have found was heinous and ugly. Like Nazis, Turks decided to annihilate the whole race.

  71. Janine
    I have given comments of Norman Stone regarding the genocide but one of your friend was very quick to ignore his thoughts.  Here is one more article from the excellent professor, http://www.turkishcoalition.org/media/stone.pdf
     
    In this article Mister Stone points out who is behind the “International Association of Genocide Scholars”. So I am asking you, how objective can this organization be?
    If you read this article, you will unfortunately see how well the diaspora is working. Like him or not but Norman Stone is a world-wide known history professor and his articles really worth to read it. Enjoy!
     

  72. “Norman Stone” – whoever he is – has nothing to do with being  a reputable historian.  He works in Turkey, a country where it is forbidden by law to refer to the Armenian genocide – so much so that even people posting on this website from Turkey are gagged by the infamous Article 301.  So much for objectivity.
     
    The International Association of Genocide Scholars is just what it says – THE international organization of academics who specialize in genocide scholarship.  The names on the letterhead are all famous Genocide scholars with top reputations.  Nobody ever heard of poor Norman Stone, who can only get a job at minor universities in Turkey.  I might be crazy too if I were in his shoes, and hard up enough for money that I would take someone’s cash in order to deny the murder of over a million people and be complicit in genocide by doing so.
     
    You know, these comments are just pathetic by the genocide deniers . I’m sure you people must be paid, but my goodness it’s amazing how awful these comments really are.  I’d feel sorry for you all except for the meagre wages you must be paid to be here posting the insanely dumb remarks here.  Like — please tell me how objective an organization called the “Turkish Coalition” can be.  Are you kidding me?  Nope, probably not.

  73. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // March 31, 2010 at 1:56 am // Reply

     
    To Goklap
    Mr. stone has his real original land has a home in united kingdom.
    Did any one kill his grand father?
    He writes for fame and is free to write.

    “We write from our blood,
    We lost every thing from pen to ink”

    Please stop photocopying.
    I think every Armenian should stop writing.
    Let us find another subject to write.
    For Armenians it is easier to carve on rocks than
    discuss with undiscussable people.
     

  74. Janine
    You are no different than your friend, I feel sorry for you. First of all, before you pronounce Norman Stone’s name you have to think twice. He has been working in Oxford University, second he has been political advisor of Margaret Thatcher. You probably dont know him or dont want to read him because he is not one of the promoted writers by diaspora. He has always been claiming that it was not a “genocide” before coming Turkey and after. So I am asking you like Mister Stone says in his article; why Algerian, Bosnian and Rwandan murders does not qualify to search for this so called association? Does it make him a person like me just because he currently works in a Turkish university? (you call it minor, i suggest you to check the background of lecturers in these universities)
    About Turkish coalition page, I was 99% sure that you were going to say something about it. Well, it is only a page, a foundation that published Mister Stone’s article. You can read the article on other sources too. You are just being aggressive, attacking your opponent without questioning. I feel the sense of Anti-Turkism in your sentences just like many others here.
    To Slvya
    So these genocide scholar, their homeland is USA, Canada, Argentina… Did anybody killed their forefathers? They are also free to write whatever they want. You should stop ignoring how hard the diaspora working.
     
    My final words, the solution between two countries can only be solved with a dialogue. I totally accept the death of thousands from both sides. You guys continue dreaming about western countries approvals on this claim, but it will not make any sense. Last years two countries started to negotiate but diaspora didnt want it to go any further. Most of you are full of hate, anger and your Anti-Turkism feelings are still growing. Whatever I say is wrong, doesnt worth to read or discuss not because it is right/wrong but because i am a Türk.
    I wish you enjoyable discussions with each other. You can flatter each other here. I am sorry that i will not participate anymore because i know it is a waste of time to try  discuss in a patriotic website.

  75. Dear Kharpert,

    May I have your permission to use parts of your comment that I’d like to incorporate in my response to one the Turks constantly posing questions in this Forum, but who appears to have serious reading comprehension problem fomthe answers he’s given? Please reply to anushka_tovmas@erols.com. Many thanks.

  76. I read an article by Norman Stone in the Chicago Tribune in 2007 that was reprinted here by someone from Turkey in a post under the bones of the Der Zor article. I left a comment that I read the article and was surprised that there was not much notice or rebuttal to it by the Armenian community in Illinois, that I could discern in future issues of the newspaper, because at the time the genocide bill was before Congress and the Jewish lobby was being attacked for supporting Turkish denial. Being Jewish, with Armenian genocide survivors in the family,  I was initially iritated by the article because I thought it was biased.  Since then I have read a lot of history books.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the reason the Turkish murderers were let go at trial, was not because they were not guilty, but because Turkey was holding British prisoners as hostages (one whose name I forgot but who was mentioned in all my history books, an important British diplomat, and who ended up as a Turkish prisoner).  So Turkey used blackmail for a long time.  This is only one of the biased comments in the article.  However, since you are bringing up Norman Stone, I thought it was fair to mention that in my opinion, the article is full of historical mistakes and misinformation and bias.  Why?  Ask Norman Stone did he not mention the people found guilty were let go because Turkey threatened to keep or harm the British hostages?  

  77. Thank you, Anonymous. Your contibution is valuable as it shows to the Turkish commentators in this discussion that if Armenians can be biased (as Turks perceice our comments), there are and always will be representatives of other inations that were subjected to genocides, who can understand the Armenians’ pain and speak the truth about a given episode as in the case of Norman Stone. Thank you.

  78. Thank you, anonymous.  I really appreciate your comment.  As you can see, the International Association of Genocide Scholars clearly represents the foundation of genocide scholarship worldwide.  It’s an interdisciplinary organization as well.  Here you can find a list of some of their current publications:
     
    http://www.genocidescholars.org/bookspublications.html
     
    It is all the more shocking as “Norman Stone” supposedly “worked” at Oxford and according to Gokalp, above, was Margaret Thatcher’s advisor.  How far the mighty have fallen then, to be at a second rate Turkish university that doesn’t even have a graduate program?  And to fail to mention the blackmail by kidnapping of his British compatriots in the foreign service?  Maybe there’s a reason he had to leave England.
    Not too impressive, there, Gokalp.  Once again, Gokalp, I can only refer you to the true International Association of Genocide Scholars, rather than a Turkish lobbying group that pays people to say what it wants.  The academics in the IASGS are true scholars and represent the full body of genocide scholarship.
    Gokalp, you cannot be taken seriously at all.  Nothing you write makes any sense and it  has nothing serious behind it.  “Dialogue” doesn’t exist for you, because you cannot take in the facts as they are presented.  “Mister Norman Stone” does not stack up against the full body of genocide scholarship.
     
     
     

  79. Why does Norman Stone defend Turkish denialists.  I looked him up in wikipedia just now and there was one article he wrote, mentioned in a footnote, that implies that he might be afraid of the ultranationalists’ claims because they might be demanding reparations.  He cites the claims before the AXA insurance company.  Actually, AXA said it was really happy to pay off the survivors of the Armenians killed in the genocide who had insurance polices.  As I remember, it was Talat Pasha, the villain, who asked Henry Morgenthau to hand over the list of people insured by AXA so he and Turkey could receive the insurance money.  How villainous, when they had already used the stolen Armenian property and money to pay off the Turkish debt.  Stone calls his a “shake down” on AXA.  How awful, since they say they were happy to repay the survivors; what should we call the villain Talat’s desire to take this money instead for Turkey, after having murdered the insured Armenians. 
    Is  history being distorted, according to subjective bias and prejudice, to get out of paying reparations and/or are there also reasons for Turkish denial like some Turks feel they are superior racially to the Armenians and everyone else.  That is one reason it may be difficult to solve these conflicts, because of the racial superiority claimed by parties.  Thank goodness Germans have apologized and feel bad about what happened to the Jews and others.
      

  80. I decided not to write anymore but you guys continue denying almost everything based on evidence.
    Janine, my reply refers especially to you. How come can you throw stones over everything that is related to Turkey? According to you our universities are like a european kindergarden, right? We only learn to read, write and play games with each other. I dont like using ctrl+c and +v all the time as you do. Bilkent University is a very good university recognized by the world-wide organizations. A lot of students i know had been admitted to doctoral studies in Europe and USA directly after their undergraduate program and additionally many research programs are available. It is just to go their webpage and surf a little, please do it. You will see many articles and reseaches that are published in the international journals. Mister Stones new university, “Koc University” has also graduate and post graduate programs. You dont really worth to get this reply , it is a waste of time but let others read this so do not fool the rest of the visitors by saying “How far the mighty have fallen then, to be at a second rate Turkish university that doesn’t even have a graduate program?”  Also if you go to UK parliament archives you will see that Mister Stone has been UK prime ministers advisor. It is not according to me, according to world I guess.
    When you write something, it would be nice to show some facts. Why Norman Stone wrote this articles and currently working in a Turkish university? Was he kicked out of UK or he liked Turkish culture, orientalism and life down there?
    I dont expect a response from you or from anybody else because i dont want to waste my time here. There are some facts on this site but for most of you every Turkish is wrong and every Anti-Turkish is write.  An advise for you to keep in mind for a lifetime, “think before you write!”
     
     
     

  81. Anonymous, there is no doubt that an ultranationalistic need to claim superiority is at work in all genocide perpetration, and its continued cover-up well past the date of the original violent acts.  The decision to destroy another race of people has its roots in such genocidal thinking; modern forms of ultranationalism certainly were not unique to the Nazis.  They continued to be inspired by the Turkish government’s acts of 1915 – modern Nazis in new form today continue to deny there was a holocaust as well.
     
    Norman Stone seems to me to be a crackpot – and apparently there were people at Oxford and elsewhere in England who thought so too.  What I read of the article suggests that he’s incensed that France or Switzerland would pass laws that would entitle Armenians to begin doing precisely what he also censors Armenians for *not* doing — and that is to go to international law courts.  A bit of a contradiction there, wouldn’t you say?
     
    Furthermore, he is at great pains to simply say that the evidence is not at hand.  This is quite different from claiming something to be true or false.  However, he also says that the Americans at the time could not provide “evidence” — when in fact we have the diaries and telegrams of eye witnesses from our State Department and its representatives in Turkey at the time, in addition to the Red Cross and international missionary workers who were witnesses.  Beyond that we know of the witnesses in the German military who wrote their own dispatches describing what happened.  Perhaps the ultraconservative Mr. Stone also thinks that eye witness testimony is not “evidence.”  I wonder if the bones at Der Zor will constitute any quality of “evidence” for such a person.  I qualify him as vicious:  he claims the whole of the Armenian diaspora to be shakedown artists:  a rather racist perspective, I’d say.

  82. Janine, my reply refers especially to you. How come can you throw stones over everything that is related to Turkey? According to you our universities are like a european kindergarden, right?
     
    Koc University is a four year school; ie no grad program.    “Mister” Stone is teaching for one year back in Bilkent I see.  That makes him not a full-time prof but rather an adjunct.  Not stunning.
     
    Gokalp, if you would actually produce something worth reading, I’d be most happy to discuss it seriously.  But the ravings of Professor Stone really are rather hate-filled.  Sort of like the way you paint what I write.  The problem is once again that the overwhelming scholarship that identifies the events of 1915 as genocide is just ignored by you — and unfortunately for you it is overwhelmingly the opinion of worldwide genocide scholarship.  You just can’t handle that fact.

  83. PS Gokalp, don’t feel too badly.
     
    If we were discussing car emissions – and the overwhelming body of scientific research in academia claimed those emissions to be high, and you produced one person at a remote  school out of the top academic circles of the world, financed by the Automobile Manufacturers, who hash a reputation as a bit of a crackpot for his personal ultraconservative political views – then I would dismiss him just the same for the issue.  Especially when the one article you quote just seems like someone who is a paid consultant for a client who wants to avoid guilty verdicts in lawsuits where they have now become liable.

  84. Janine
    I will not write anything but came back to correct your lie.
    Here is Koc Universities Graduate programs in Science and Engineering.
    http://www.ku.edu.tr/ku/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1033&Itemid=2191
     
    If you search more you will find other departments too.
     
    As I said earlier, think before you write!

  85. Janine,

    How you can still show your face after being so completely beaten is remarkable! You’re so wrong on so many levels, yet you’re actions exemplify what all dashnaks do on a daily basis! I believe the word that best describes this would be SHAMELESS!! 

    To the censorship section,

    I see that you’ve once again censored and deleted my posts! Way to go cowards!!! Boy, the fear of the truth coming out must cost you a small fortune in underware cleaning and sales, huh!!! 

  86. Gokalp:
     
    Your link doesn’t work, you who tell us to “think.”  I believe it requires a login.
     
    What I read online was that it was a four year university.  There is not much information on its own website.  Perhaps what I read was wrong.  But if you need to continue to insult, then you are only showing how shallow you are.
     
    As I said, the entire body of genocide scholarship in the world has overwhelmingly weighed in on this subject.   I am not impressed with the one person you cite nor his academic history, and especially the article you cited and the way it was written.  It is not scholarly at all.  It is written in inflammatory casual language not suitable for academic papers.  I suggest you go over the list of publications of members of the International Association of Genocide Scholars  for academic quality if you are not able to differentiate that from the article by Stone you linked here.
     
    As for being “beaten” — I’m afraid you fellows simply don’t know what the full body of scholarship has already decided on this issue.  It is your side that has been beaten in academia.
     
     
     

  87. Perhaps I should add that I went to a top ten university in the US.  My standards may be different from yours, Gokalp and Robert.  The link works from this site, it didn’t when I clicked on the email I received.  So, they do list grad programs.  It still cannot compete with scholars at top schools relevant to the subject we are discussing (nor, I would imagine, in Engineering, philsophy, etc) as far as academic rank is concerned.
     
    Now, for you who advise others to think and call others shameless:  Why don’t you think yourselves?  How many Armenians are left in Eastern Anatolia?  How many Turks are there?  Oh, can you compute those kind of statistics?  Even in Turkey, the census statistics have finally been published recently:  disappearance of approximately 1.5 million people of one ethnic group.  That is genocide, not war.  Men, women and children.  Think.
     
     
     
     

  88. PS I looked up Kos University at Wikipedia and saw its list of top professors.  I am even less impressed than before.  I realize you are in Turkey and that is what you have to compare to.  However, we are not talking about a worldwide pool of research; the paper you note cannot compare to the top levels of that in terms of scholarship.   What is clear to everyone here is how little you folks can present that shows either a willingness to dialogue or to accept scholarship on the issue.  And we’re all familiar with your hatred already, even before I started posting on this article.

  89. By the way, Robert and Gokalp, why don’t you answer this question:
     
    How can a country that criminalizes people who say the events of 1915 constitute genocide possibly have a level of academic freedom necessary for proper scholarship on the subject of genocide?    The conditions for proper academic research don’t even exist on this subject in Turkey!!
     
    THINK about it.

  90. Janine
    The link works very well. I tested before i posted and you can see the lost of the graduate and post graduate programs there.
    You are the one who is telling us how an academic artical or institution should be and it is you who is using “wikipedia” as a guide. Congratulations!  A webpage that can be changed by anybody and is not updated regularly. Instead of this way try to search on their website, dont worry it will not take so much time.

  91. Gokalp — still doesn’t change my mind.  Why don’t you try some of that dialogue you talk about that is pertinent to the subject?  Like I  said before, denial is not just a river in Egypt.
     
    Just what exactly is so threatening about accepting this fact?  I think that’s the best thing for us to dialogue about.  What would change in your life if killing 1.5 men, women and children deliberately is genocide?
     

  92. Janine,

    You have many various freedoms in Turkey! We are not worried about your pathetic attempts to ultimately destabilize our country. We’ve stood up to the world’s scrutinty time after time. However, I challenge you to go to Yerevan and go on their TV an proclaim that there was no genocide. I’d like to see how long you are allowed to live? You may not be arrested, but how far (without a police escort) would you make it out of the studio? My guess would be, depending on if enough people viewed it, that you’d be mobbed and mutilated with a mile of the studio! After all Janine, a 98% purity rate in Armenia, accomplished by self-admitted ethnic cleansing of all non-Armenians, is nothing to be ignored now, is it! So, do you take my challenge (without pre-alerting the people of Yerevan that it’s a PR challenge stunt)? Put your money where your mouth is!

    To the editorial board,

    Are you going to allow this post to go through, or will it end up being censored, like so many of mine and others have been? Stay tuned y’all.

  93. Robert, you really should not confuse Armenians with Turks.  If you went to Yerevan and proclaimed there was no genocide, people would think you were crazy.  I mean that literally, a crazy person.  khenten, we say.    And you seem crazy to me, to be perfectly honest, because your perspective is so far outside of reality.
     
    The other crazy thing is that you really feel that you  are threatened with destabilization if you actually accept that your country committed a genocide.    This is truly crazy.  It’s reality, it happened, and you are saying your denial is the only thing that prevents Turkey from destabilization.  Why?  I ask again, “What terrible thing will happen if you accept that your country committed genocide?”  This is what the whole worldwide body of genocide scholarship has concluded about Turkey.  Why would it destabilize you to finally admit the truth instead of covering it up?  That is the groundwork for craziness – on a national or personal level.  Lies make a place crazy.  Lies mean that truth will destabilize.  It is time to grow up and learn humility, admit mistakes, throw off this need for aggression all the time on your neighbors – that’s more than just the Armenians.   People used to call Turkey the sick man of Europe.  It is a sick man who needs to live with denial for fear of destabilization.  At least I know that there are many Turks who can accept reality.  But you feel Turkey cannot accept what is real, and you need to deny in order to protect what is in your mind stability.  A rocky slope.  Very sad.
     
     

  94. i really wonder why my reply to kharpet is not here…

  95. SAME OLD criminal turk!

  96. Voltaire characterised the Turks as:
    “tyrants of the women and enemies of arts”.
    He also spoke of the need:
    “to chase away from Europe these barbaric usurpers”
    He accused the Turks of having destroyed Europes ancient heritage from :”the Orient’s Christian realm” and wrote:
    wish fervently that the Turkish barbarians be chased away immediately out of the country of Xenophon Socrates,If we wanted……….. them.

  97. Cardinal Newman described the Turks as:
    the “great anti-Christ among the races of men.

  98. The turk will never change its spots. Only the clothes wears to fool others.

  99. avatar Sylva-Md-Poetry // December 8, 2010 at 11:25 pm // Reply

    Mr.Robert,
     
    I wonder Mr.Robert
    Why your name is Robert?
     
    If you’re born as a Turk
    Your name should be different.
     
    If you have another blood
    That… you know it…only.
     
    If you are paid to protect your beloved unfairly
    That is how you brought up…!
     
    You’re insisting to teach…
    That all your people are honest…
    and never committed published historical crimes.
     
    Advising a genocided nation
    Since centuries under cruel domain!!!
     
    How can you return
    all their ancestries lost blood…lands—
    Countless souls …unmeasurable wealth…
     
    Those… Who never could forgot their pain
    Neither lost their dignity…yet…
     
    Are able to get their bread
    By carving the rocks
    opening their roads
    In any place they live.
     
    That is to say, never need your mercy!
     
    Sylva
     
     
     

  100. Hi, I was born in Mars and I grew up there,it is a strange city. There is nothing special,it is winter nearly half of the year no sea, no forest, no heat you want to get out of there but ones you out it calls you back no matter where you are you want to get back to it . I was 17 when I left and haven’t been since and I am 32 now missing it a lot. My grandfather was telling us stories that he heard from his father and ones he could remember. He was saying they were friends with Armenians and kirve but when things started to go wrong they both did wrong. I never have any problems with Armenians, when I meet someone from Armenia I feel someone from home, it is strange feeling you can’t explain it you just feel it. Love you all guys, life is too short for hate…

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