ANKARA, Turkey (A.W.)—On April 24-25, a symposium on the Armenian Genocide titled “1915 Within Its Pre- and Post-Historical Periods: Denial and Confrontation,” will be held in Ankara. Organized by the Ankara Freedom to Thought Initiative (AFTI), the symposium will not only address history, but explore issues like the confiscation of Armenian property and reparations.
Confirmed participants include Ragip Zarakolu (publisher), Recep Marasli (author of The Armenian National Democratic Movement and 1915 Genocide), Sait Cetinoglu (activist and writer), David Gaunt (genocide scholar, author of Massacres, Resistance, Protectors: Muslim-Christian Relations in Eastern Anatolia During World War I), Henry Theriault (professor of philosophy, Worcester State University), Baskin Oran (author, professor of political science at Ankara University; one of the initiators of the apology campaign of Turkish intellectuals), and Khatchig Mouradian (doctoral student in Holocaust and genocide studies, Clark University; editor, the Armenian Weekly).
Dedicated to the memory of Hrant Dink, the symposium will comprise of four sessions: a) the Armenian Genocide from a historical perspective, b) official ideological denial from the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) to Kemalism, c) Turkification of the economy and the issue of the confiscated Armenian property, and d) what needs to be done and how.
The Armenian Weekly will provide in-depth coverage of the conference.
Looking forward to read the story…
Gayane
so wait…has article 301 been repealed?
I wonder if we could be able to hold a conference in Yerevan that the Turkish thesis is presented.
Dont tell me Turkey bans on freedom of thoughts. Turkey is more civilized than you think. But, your extremely biased minds keep you from seeing it.
We need to understand that Hrant Dink was so right . Turkish people will start to accept the reality of genocide. We do not need other countries acceptance. That kind of thinking is exteremly naive and primitive. Hrant had the right vision for that. Follow his path, that is the real solution.
I am absolutely astounded to learn of this planned conference, and the topics that are planned — I can hardly believe it! I never thought I would live to see the day that such a topic would openly be discussed in Turkey. The second coming has arrived!
It’s April 1 today (All Fools Day). This is a joke, right?
Hye, or, just another PLOY! Manooshag
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING IF THE SYMPOSIUM IS NOT CANCELLED OR POSTPONED, AFTHER A SHOW OF GOOD FAITH, JUST ON APRIL 24TH?
WHY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN HELD A MONTH OR TWO EARLIER?
FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU…
FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME!
We know there are some very couragious people still toughing it out in Turkey
and May God Bless them for not allowing fear when the cause is rightious.
There are still twenty three days to go, to many changes can happen by that time, I am not yet too optimistic, I always remember that back then, my grandparents were tolled by this government predecessors , that they were being taken to a safer places than their homelands, and we all know very well, where they are all later on end up ,and what happened to them, to their families, relatives and belongings which left behind.
Dear Ahmet, you are absolutely right in certain points; it is probably not so easy to hold a conference in Yerevan because off the trauma lived by the successors of victoms and also beacause such an attempt would remain as a monolog.
Similar conferences are held in Turkey due to several reasons :
1. Because it is the land where the geoside occured;
2. Because it is the land whose ancestors of present holders caused it;
3. Because Turkey is forced to take steps in order to achieve credit torward EU acceptance.
4. Because really there are so many civilized open minded people in Turkey, besides the parrots of official thesis.
5. Regardless a trick of good will show, I sincerely congratulate the symposium committee.
Ahmet,
Of course you can a hold a conference in Yerevan…This week there is the Turkish & Azeri film festival in Yerevan…
A question though Ahmet… what will be the subject of your conference ?How Ottomans committed the Armenian Genocide?
To Ahmet and any others ignorant of history: you need not worry about the Genocide conference planned to take place in Ankara in on April 24-25, 2010. The last time a conference of this type was scheduled in Ankara (a few years ago), your very “civilized” Turkish government, “free of bans on self-expression,” canceled it and banned it from taking place just a few days before it was scheduled to happen.
Ahment and everyone else: This seminar, although very welcome, should have been held in 1919 or 1920, during the Istanbul Trial of Ittihad ve Terekki criminals; or any time between then and now. So although 90 years too late but “better late than never” as the saying goes. Remember the Germans did it immediately after WWII, acknowledged the crimes of the Nazis, apologised, banned Holocaust denialism, paid compensation as they still continue to do and have formally commemorated the Holocaust at the state level as well as made it part of the German education system from the start.
So hopefully the official denail of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey, which has been financed and organised by the Turkish state, both Unionist and Kemalist-republican, can be put to rest. And they will begin to follow a civilised path towards recognition, repentance, reparation an apology and formal and mass annual commemoration of the greatest Armenian tragedy in Turkey. That would be normal civilised behaviour and not just because Europe and the world expects this but because that is the decent and civilised thing to do for Turkey.
Now of Turkish leaders and ordinary citizens develop the courage one day soon and go to Yerevan to lay flowers at the Genocide Memorial (better still build a similar one in Ankara and Istanbul!) and kneelthere the eternal flame and ask for the forgiveness of the Armenian people or afterwards hold a joint seminar in Yerevan to study the depth of the crime and its consequences, the great moral, spiritual, economic, cultural and historical trauma and loss that they have caused to the Armenian people that also will be very welcome.
But please, don’t continue with the old denialist ways if by holding a seminar in Yerevan you mean holding a denialist propaganda “seminar” in Yerevan. Just think can you imagine some Nazi outfit holding such a “seminar” in Tel Aviv or indeed in Germany or anywhere in Europe?!
Denialism is dead and must be buried for good. Recognition, Remembrance, Repentance and Recompense are the way forward for Armenians as much as for the Turks. There is no other way.
VTiger,
Can you give me the web site that shows about the Turkish-Azeri film festival? I would love to see it in Yerevan.
The subject of the conference will be the fallacies in the armenian claims that what happned in 1915 was a genocide. the conference present evidences from the archieves that no armenian scholar has dared to study.
the conference will also discuss why the armenian diaspora is so scared about the formation of the historical comission.
Bagraduni,
You dont want me to go to hold a denialist conference in Yerevan? Why? if you can present your ideas in Turkey, why cant I present my opinions in yerevan? are you scared that you will be proven wrong?
if not you should not object to the idea of a conference in yerevan.
Ahmet,
Excellent point my brother!!!
To all of you Dahnak Armenians…What say you all? Why the objection to Ahmet’s proposal? After all, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander!
Editorial board, will this be yet another one of your censorship jobs of hiding the truth from the masses? Stay tuned people.
Hi Ahmet – some see, others don’t. there are not many opportunities to learn about the other side… it’s complicated.
Robert
if can rea english,then
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
A typical Turkish snakelike behavior: to show to the world as if they’ve advanced a iota in responding to pressure from the international community and ‘Look the world, we now organize such conferences, see how progressed and responsive we, Turks, are towards the recognition of our own crimes.’ As it had happened before many times, at the very last moment the conference will either be postponed indefinitely, or several aggressive Turks will enter and disrupt it, as it happened in one of their universities several years ago, or even more so (God forbid!), the government will instigate a political murder, just as it happened with Hrant Dink. Anyway, what could the participants essentially discuss if the mouths of the Turkish discussants are potentially shut by the notorious Article 301?
To: Ahmet, Robert and other Turkish denialists posting in these pages –
First, no legal measure of the Republic of Armenia, in contrast to your humiliating 301 that’s internationally known as a discrimination against freedom of speech, will hinder you to present your opinions in Yerevan.
Second, what happened in 1915 is no longer considered a purely and singularly an Armenian claim, you still live in the early 20th century. You missed out already that the claim has become international.
Third, Turkish archives have been distorted as evidenced by many Western scholars conducting research there. Besides, Armenians have such a massive amount of documentary evidence in the leading world archives and repositories that Turkish archives pale in comparison with them. Hence there’s little need for Armenian scholars to conduct such a research. The issue has already moved over the boundaries of a scholarly research and toward acceptance of the proven fact and repentance.
Fourth, Armenian archives are open, in fact, two or three Turkish scholars have worked in them. But let’s forget about Turkish or Armenian archives, lets’ pretend that both of them are biased. Travel the world and familiarize yourselves with archives and repositories in London, Berlin, Paris, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Rome, Washington, and Athens, if you will. Armenian don’t need to, nor the rest of civilized world. That time has, too, already passed.
Fifth, guys, stop making fools of you. How can you possibly prove the improvable? Do you really consider all international scholarly and research community as idiots, and some 30 foreign governments, the European Parliament, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, forty-four state legislatures in the USA, leading human rights organizations, advocacy groups, and international lawyers as liars? Give me a break…
The time for discussions has passed. We waited for your apology for 95 years. And throughout 95 years you were getting round the issue in order to prolong it with the hope that it’ll finally be forgotten. There’s a Supreme Justice, folks, and if you believe in God, you’d know that he’s not only gracious and merciful, but also chastising and judiciary. Mass murders of fellow human beings and fellow citizens cannot pass unpunished.
You would think there never was any such meeting or conference in Turkey. This is not the first one, nor the last.
So where is 301? If no one attempts to denigrate the basic symbols of religion or nation, then the nationalists will not have a case. I am sure they will try though. So, how many people are in jail today for speaking or discussing the so-called genocide? Zero.
I do not agree with the positions of some of these panelists, but I will defend their right to talk about it as much as they want.
I assure you none of this will stop the claims that there is no such freedom of discussion and Turks are ignorant of their history. It is the same people when confronted with reality and facts, still turn around and push their mythology as factual history.
I dare anyone go and hold such a conference in Armenia. Better yet, go and challenge this myth in France or Switzerland for example. Facts do not need such protection, or congressional resolutions or such a campaign of fogreries and intimidation. Then again, this is hardly about facts.
95 years after annihilation of Armenians from their homeland, in an atmosphere of state denial & gag on pronouncing the word “Genocide”, and ‘Armenian Genocide’ a taboo for ordinary Turks, how can such a conference be isolated from government and ultra-nationalist influences & threats? A Turkish government who for years ‘cunningly’ spent millions of dollars on denial policy; how can become at once so open minded to let intellectuals incriminate its own policy? Nevertheless, let’s see such brave initiatives can bare fruit in such a hostile environment!
Murat – If you’re misled and disoriented to the extent that you believe that Turkish-government planned and executed mass annihilation of the Ottoman Armenians is a mythology and not factual history, which not only Armenians but also several dozens of foreign nations, international bodies of genocide scholars, the European parliament, 44 state legislatures of the United States, scores of historians, human rights and advocacy groups, and international lawyers firmly believe, then no conference either in Turkey, or Armenia, or France, or Switzerland, for that matter, will change your delusion for a iota. I’m afraid you’re dead wrong in stating that Turks are ignorant of their history. How can they not be, if there’s virtually nothing in your schoolbooks about exterminating and depriving indigenous civilizations of their homeland in Asia Minor in various time periods? Even nowadays it’s become known that 12 mln DVDs have been distributed to you elementary schools depicting Armenians’ ‘atrocities’ against the Turks during the CUP years, i.e. a completely reversed picture of what actually happened and is known to the world. Ask yourself, how can these school children NOT be ignorant of their true history when they grow up with such a distorted knowledge? I agree that facts do not need protection in conferences or parliamentary resolutions, but it is the denial of facts by all consecutive Turkish government that DOES need such conferences and parliamentary resolutions. If your government cannot find the courage to name things by their names and repent to the Armenians, then alternative measures are put to work. And this is being done for one reason: because race annihilation is not just a domestic affair, it is a crime against humanity. As for controversial, illiberal and discriminatory Article 301, Hrant Dink, Orhan Pamuk, or Elif Safak, among dozens of others (some of whom are Nobel Prize laureates), never said anything that could be qualified as remotely denigrating basic symbols of your religion or nation. Nevertheless they were tried, sometimes several times, and ultimately been deported or had to escape the country. Maybe not many of them were put in prison, but the single cold blood murder of Hrant Dink is more than demonstrative of the fact what might happen to anyone raising his or her voice against the state of human rights in your country. For a large number of cases emanating from article 301, please see this, if you will: “Turkey: Article 301: How the Law on ‘Denigrating Turkishness’ Is an Insult to Free Expression”, by Amnesty International, at: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR44/003/2006/en/dom-EUR440032006en.html.
Murat and “Robert” you obviously have either short memories or, more likely, are fully paid up and card carrying Deep State agents, probably in the US or Europe engaged in “professional” denialist propaganda. So no point in debating anything with you. Even if you wanted to talk the truth you would lose your “jobs” and salaries. As the saying goes ‘whoever pays the piper calls the tune’ – you get paid to lie, just like so many lobbyists getting millions from Turkey to engage in professional distortion and denial of Turkish history in general and the Armenian Genocide in particular. I bet until yesterday you were still singing the praises of totally discredited Davoud Halagoghlou, Kamuran Gurun, Aktas Gunduz and a few other arch priests of official denialism and regurgitating their ridiculous “theories” of “it was civil war” and “Armenian traitors” and other such nonsense.
And let’s not get too excited about this seminar, VERY WELCOME THOUGH IT IS: Ragip Zarakolou, brave, courageous and honest though he is with 100% integrity, he is very much on the very fringes of Turkish society having suffered tens of court cases (including some pending right now), his wife the late Ayshe Nur Zarakolou and himself having suffered years of imprisonment, fire bombing of their publishing house, Belge Publications, not to mention repeated punitive fines on their company which have led to bankruptcy (a more “sophisticated” application of the infamous 301 “anti Turkishness” nonsense) for what, you may well ask?! For having integrity and honesty and for translating and publishing French, German and English books on Genocide against of the Kurds and Armenians. There are currently, according to EU reports, hundreds of journalists and independent academics with such “sophisticated” cases against them awaiting trial BUT THINGS ARE IMPROVING A LITTLE SINCE THE MURDER OF HRANT DINK AND THE THREATS AGAINST NOBLE WINNING AUTHOR ORHAN PAMUK AND THE INTERNATIONAL PUBLICITY THAT THESE RAISED ABOUT HOW TURKEY IS STILL VERY MUCH IN THE “MIDNIGHT EXPRESS” MODE! (Anyone who has not seen the film must do so to understand the nightmare that is Turkey if you’re an Armenian, a Kurd or want to think independently).
Ahmet’s case is probably slightly different as he could be one of the millions of the brainwashed who does not know any better as he most probably hasn’t had access to independent literature. His case also shows, actually, how far Turkey has to run before it will become a “normal” and civilised society and state, at the level of an average European country such as say Austria or Bulgaria. I would optimistically hazard a guess and say perhaps 100 to 300 years but possibly 1,000 years and more if we take Switzerland, France or Germany as standards!
TO ANI ,GAYANE DIANE TIGRAN AND THE REST OF YOU (INCLUDING AHMET ,MURAT).i could not leave latter tw out anyhow.THOUGH I WISH TO POINT OUT T THE FIRST ONE WAS IT THAT ASKSED IF SUCHA CONFERENCE/SYMPOSIUM COULD TAKE PLACE IN YEREVAN.
WHERE ARE YOU PEOPLE?I WAS AT THE CENTRE FOR NAT’L,INT’L STARATEGIC STUDIES LAST YEAR IN YEREVAN.INVITED TO PARTICIPATE. I CAN GIVE YOU EXACT DATE AND WHAT TRANSPIRED IN DETAIL.OW IN BRIEF.
THIS IS THE CENTRE-ESTABLISHED BY RAF.HOVANNISSIAN -FIRST FOREIGN MINISTRE OF RA…
THERE WERE NEAR DOZEN VERY NICE TURKISH YOUNG LADIES AND YOUNG MEN INVITED THERE, UNIVERSITY KIDS, PLUS TWO TURKISH GOV. FUNCTIONAREIS ONE WAS ALSO FROM BIRINGI OR SME SUCH UNIVERSTY PROFESSOR FROM ISTANBULLA.WE CONDUCTED VERY CIVIL, COURTEOUS DISCUSSIONS.I WAS STUNNED THAT THESE YOUNG TURKS DID NOT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THERI PAST HISTORY-EVEN IF THEY HAD-THEY DID NOT SOW IT ..THEY ARE AFTER ALL PEOPLE ELECTED TO GO TO YEREVAN AND PARTICPATE AT SUCH CONFERENCES.VERY CREATIONAL CREATIVE RATHER…
WHILE OUR PART-THE ARMENIANS ALSO YOUNG MAINLY DID NOT ,COULD NOT HAVE WAT OLD PEOPLE LIKE SELF HAD STORED FROM MANY SUCH CONF. IN EUROPE…WHEN ALL WAS SAID TRYING TO MEND PAST GRIEVANCES ETC.,I NOTICED THAT PRECIOUS LITTLE WASSAID ABOUT TURKEY’S RECENT -VERY RECENT HISTORY-THAT IS AFTER THE ARMENIANS WERE SBJECTED TO GENOCIDE /EVICTION(LATTER MEANS FORCED DISPLACEMENT) BY THE BY.. the I hinted that i was very much hopefull that THE NEW GENERATION TURKS-SUCH AS YOUR GOODSEVES WOULD TAKE PAINS TO STUDY-OTHER THAN YOUR GOV. PUBLISED HISTORY BOOKS-OTHERS’ NOT NECDESSARILY ARMENIAN.OH ONE THING MORE DID YOU KNW THAT CLOSE TO 18 MILLION PEOPLE THAT NOW LIVE IN WESTERN ARMENIA(anatolia) WERE UNTILL quite recently were called “mountain turks”..
WHEN MRS. MITTERANDT-WFE OF EX-PRESIDENT OF FRANCE , FRANCOIS MIITERRANDT ,AS A STOUT ADVOCATE OF HUMAN RIGHTS ,HAD COME OUT AND DISCLOSED THAT THESE PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY ” k u r d s “…?
I THEN EXPRESSED HOPE THAT SOME DAY -LIKE PROFESSOR RICHARD G.HOVANISSIAN -SILENTLY PROVED-TRAVELLING FROM CITY TO CITY IN U.S. SOWING SIDES THAT HE HAD TAKEN WHEN INVITED BY A NICE TURKISH LADY PROFESSOR FROM MID-WESTERN UNIV.TO TURKEY ONLY 2/3 YRS AGO…
HE SHOWED THESE SLIDES -MIND YIOU WITHOUT SAYING AYTHING ABOUT GENOCIDE TO A MIXEDF TURKISH AND ARMENIAN PUBLI AND OTHERS ONLY DESWCRIBING THAT THIS PIECE OF STONE CARVINGS ON IT ARMEIAN WAS FROM KHARPERT, THE OTHER YERSNGAerzinca), VAN BITLIS ET.,E TC., ETC.,
THEN THE CONFERENCE GOT HEATED UP,SINCE THE TURKS PRESENT UNDERSTOOD HIS “SILENT” MESSAGE…THAT ARMENIANS HAD LIVED THERE…NOW G O N E …
couple of these got up and with “KHERS “-means wrath.(pretty much like that of Prime Ministre Erdogan) THAT “YOU ARMENIANS STABBED US ON THE BACK” JOINED WTH THE RUSSIANS ARMIES ETC., (this bloke did not understand or conveniently forgot that at the time TURKISH ARMIES WERE NEAR ALL MANNE4D BY german officers..SO?????
NOW WAIT A MINUTE…THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN A TURKISH LADY STTING IN FRONT OF ME with a very harsh tone told prof. hovaniissian a man well advanced in age and revered by the int’l communities..”ANSWER THAT QUESTION!!!!”
i really could not swallow that one…and just a bit later asked permission to speak,stood up ad said the following:
“FEW PEOPLE HERE, KNOW (fist saying that i was from Europe)THAT ANOTHER PEOPLE FAR AWAY FROM ARMENIA HAD SUFFERED THE SAME FATE, TO THE WEST…HAVING BEEN CONQUERED AND RULED OVER BY NORTH AFRICAN KHALIPHATES FOR -JUST LIKE US- 600 YEARS..a sanish Princess UNITED THEIR PRINCESS, SECRETLY ARMING THEMSELVES ADN DROVE THE CONQUERORS OUT OF …S P A I N …..
LATER SAME TURKISH FELLOW SHOT BACK…WELL. WE HAVE LIVED TOGETHER FOR CENTURIES LIKE BROTHER AND SSTER..WE SHOULD G ON NOW TOO.
at the coctail hour i approached this chap,-now amongst a group-AND SAID TO HIM”yes i agree, we sould d so, ,BUT PRIOR TO THAT THERER ARE SOME ACCOUNTS TO BE SETTLED>>>>jesus…this man got so “KHERS-LY” and muttering “settle accts settle accts left us…
YOU SEE MY DEAR FELLOW ARMENIANS TURKS WOULD YESGTERDAY HAD COME AND KNELT AT tsitsernakapert and asked for giveness-FACT IS THEY ARE DOING IT NOW THEIR WAY yavah yavash, by and by…..BUT but……just don’t ask for restitution from them wil ya?
FACT IS AND MARK THE FOLLOWING WORDAS PLEASE. THEY WLL EVENTUALLY EVEN “THRWN IN MOUNT ARARAT AND A RUINS” AS A GESTURE OF benevolence”BAKHSHISH- in their tongue….BECAUSE3 THEY STILL THINK THEY ARE THE MASTER RACE..WITH ALL THOSE WELL ARMED ARMIES-(FURBISHED BY …ALLIES)and will not cede anything if pressed or CLAIED FROM THEM..
BUT I SHALL REFER TO THIS ISSUE OF r e p a r a t i o n s LATER…
BEST..
TO THOSE WHO UNDERSTAND …
To Ararat,
Your third, and especially your fourth points are completely BS!!! Every single scholar that has examined the archives in Turkey have all praised them! We, unlike dashnak Armenians, have nothing to hide! Contrast that with so many of Armenian so-called evidentary documentations which have been proven to be FORGED, FABRICATED, FALSIFIED, and for the past decade and a half…PHOTSHOPPED!! The Armenian archives ARE NOT OPEN to the public!! Typical lying dashnak!! You echo and personify the very words of Sir Ellis Bartlett as he said on the floor of England’s parliament in Feb. of 1895…”Armenians are of all the Oriental peoples, the most adroit, subtle and the MOST PRONE TO LYING!”.
TAKIYA – lying for Islam, that is exactly what all the denialists are doing here (takiya – and that is what one journalist in Hurriyet said Erdogan was doing when he denied the Armenian genocide).
REPARATIONS.
PRESENT OR EVEN FURTHER AHEAD TURKISH GOV.DIPLOMACY IS BASED ON “power diplomacy”…ESPECIALLY S AS THE TWO (OF) major world powers still support ,back them up.Namely U.K. U.S.A.
The MOMENT THESE LET GO OF TURKEY (as DETERRENT FORCE 0 in the area,their BULLISH STANCE WLL CRUMBLE OVERNIGHT.CONTEMPORARY POWER STRUGGLE IN THE AREA,that is the Middle East, Near East and further to East…I R A N IS ONE REASON THIS BULLY OF A STATE FEELS SELF-CONFIDENT.
To cede to Tiny Armenia and well….. its large Diaspora, what they press for is tantamount to SUBMISSION.they will not do that.However…
THEY MAY ,AS ABOVE INDICATED…by and by IN THEIR OLD VERY OLD OTTOMAN WILY FASHION give in to very small “Bakhshish” if worse comes to worse..
CASH COMPENSATION TO BE EXPECTED FROM THEM RE BLOOD MONEY ?
IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY.all along 50/60/70 years they ave been receiving FOREIGN AID,MAINLY FROM UNCLE SAM AND THAT IN NON-RETURNABLE LOANS OR HAND OUTS.TO EXPECT THAT THEY COUPH UP ,RATHER IMPOSSILBE.
HOWEVER, SINCE THEIR TWO ABOVE “ALLIES” ARE INDIRECTLY OR DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THEIR “DENIALIST” POSTURE-STANCE AND A VERY IMPORTANT PROOF BEING THAT THEY did not wish to pass the BTC -Baku Tiblis -Ceyhan Oil PIPELINE VIA ARMENIA ( FEW YEARS AGO)-THE SORTEST ROUTE..THEY ARE TO BE CONSIDERED BY ARMENIANS AS SIDING WITH TURKEY AT THE COST OF ARMENIA-ARMENIANS…IN SIMPLE WORDS..THEY ARE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FO THAT ERROR…
NOW THEN , IF AND WHEN SAID TWO BY AND BY ACCEPT THAT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS INTERNATIONALLY A DE FACTO FAIT A COMPLIT-a done act…then they will also soften up..that is when we can ASK THEM TO REVIEW THEIR ERROR(RE PIPELINE) AND “SUGGEST”, that they press the Oil companies therein involved-Now paying over 1.5 billion dollars TRANSIT DUTIES TO TURKEY..SET ASIDE A CERTAIN % OF THIS “EASY MONEY” so to speak-after all IT IS VERY EASILY EARNED…TO PAY FOR THE “MONEY FOR BLOOD” they shed of the 1.5 million Armenians to their SURVIVRS HEIRS..
One cannot picture turkey paying out of its Gov. treasury coffers(always emptied) to Armenians….
Above may seem rather strange ,but that is the truth of the matter.TURKS ARE NOT PEOPLE TO ACT LIKE THE GERMANS (PAYING TO JEWS, FOR BLOOD MONEY).one more thing,they will ,IN ORDER TO SHOW THEMSELVES AS COMPROMISING PEOPLE-ESPECIALLY NOW THESE DAYS…
i f a n d when the U.K. and the U.S officially recognize the Armenian Genocide,BEND FURTHER AND ,AS METIONED IN PREVIOUS POST……Always mark my remarks ..”avash avash by and by,give small things away.
WHY?don’t you remember “Akh Tamar” A DOUBLE OBJECTIVE LY OFFERED CASE.. THAT THOUGH -WITHOUT CROSS ON IT O R accepting that it was armenian built -thence armenian owed on armeian land -built over 1000 yrs ago by king gagik ar tzrouni…now JUST RECENTLY REPAIRING A COUPLE OR SO OTHER SUCH CHURCHES AND EVNE in a few within this year mass to be held…YOU SEE…THEY ARE BY AND BY COMING TO TERMS….
THENCE ,THEY WILL AS A BIG GESTURE -WHICH WILL REALLY MAKE BIG IMPACT ON WORLD PUBLIC OPINION,AGREE TO GIVE “AGHRI DAGH mount Ararat- plus RUINS OF ANI(ALSO TO BE REPAIRED WITH DOUBLE -INTENTION BOTH TO CARESS ARMENIANS AND ALSO AS BOOSTING TOURISM ..
So is their mindset.AND IT WORKS WITH EUROPEANS AND FURTHER AWAY THEIR COUSINS…
AVE IN MIND THAT THOUGH COLD WAR IS OVER…THE WEST VERY MUCH SUSPECTS THAT RRRRUSIA WILL AGAIN BE A MENACE?????
WAIT A ND SEE, AS THE BRITS SAY…
SHANTAGIZOUM,
“The MOMENT THESE LET GO OF TURKEY (as DETERRENT FORCE 0 in the area,their BULLISH STANCE WiLL CRUMBLE OVERNIGHT”
you say so?
tell me who patrols the armenian-Turkish border? mighty armenian army? hmm. i really dont think so.
the moment those russians let go of armenia, …………….
fill in the blank :-)
From ‘How Taquiyya Alters Islamic Rules of War” by Raymond Ibrahim, the Middle East Quarterly. “Taqiyya presents a range of ethical dilemmas. Anyone who truly believes that God justifies and, through his prophet’s example, even encourages deception will not experience any ethical qualms over lying. Consider the case of ‘Ali Mohammad, bin Laden’s first “trainer” and long-time Al-Qaeda operative. An Egyptian, he was initially a member of Islamic Jihad and had served in the Egyptian army’s military intelligence unit. After 1984, he worked for a time with the CIA in Germany. Though considered untrustworthy, he managed to get to California where he enlisted in the U.S. Army. It seems likely that he continued to work in some capacity for the CIA. He later trained jihadists in the United States and Afghanistan and was behind several terror attacks in Africa. People who knew him regarded him with “fear and awe for his incredible self-confidence, his inability to be intimidated, absolute ruthless determination to destroy the enemies of Islam, and his zealous belief in the tenets of militant Islamic fundamentalism.”Indeed, this sentence sums it all up: For a zealous belief in Islam’s tenets, which legitimize deception in order to make God’s word supreme, will certainly go a long way in creating “incredible self-confidence” when lying.Yet most Westerners continue to think that Muslim mores, laws, and ethical constraints are near identical to those of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Naively or arrogantly, today’s multiculturalist leaders project their own worldview onto Islamists, thinking a handshake and smiles across a cup of coffee, as well as numerous concessions, are enough to dismantle the power of God’s word and centuries of unchanging tradition. The fact remains: Right and wrong in Islam have little to do with universal standards but only with what Islam itself teaches—much of which is antithetical to Western norms. It must, therefore, be accepted that, contrary to long-held academic assumptions, the doctrine of taqiyya goes far beyond Muslims engaging in religious dissimulation in the interest of self-preservation and encompasses deception of the infidel enemy in general. This phenomenon should provide a context for Shi’i Iran’s zeal—taqiyya being especially second nature to Shi’ism—to acquire nuclear power while insisting that its motives are entirely peaceful. Nor is taqiyya confined to overseas affairs. Walid Phares of the National Defense University has lamented that homegrown Islamists are operating unfettered on American soil due to their use of taqiyya: “Does our government know what this doctrine is all about and, more importantly, are authorities educating the body of our defense apparatus regarding this stealthy threat dormant among us?” After the Fort Hood massacre, when Nidal Malik Hasan, an American-Muslim who exhibited numerous Islamist signs which were ignored, killed thirteen fellow servicemen and women, one is compelled to respond in the negative. This, then, is the dilemma: Islamic law unambiguously splits the world into two perpetually warring halves—the Islamic world versus the non-Islamic—and holds it to be God’s will for the former to subsume the latter. Yet if war with the infidel is a perpetual affair, if war is deceit, and if deeds are justified by intentions—any number of Muslims will naturally conclude that they have a divinely sanctioned right to deceive, so long as they believe their deception serves to aid Islam “until all chaos ceases, and all religion belongs to God.”Such deception will further be seen as a means to an altruistic end. Muslim overtures for peace, dialogue, or even temporary truces must be seen in this light, evoking the practical observations of philosopher James Lorimer, uttered over a century ago: “So long as Islam endures, the reconciliation of its adherents, even with Jews and Christians, and still more with the rest of mankind, must continue to be an insoluble problem.”In closing, whereas it may be more appropriate to talk of “war and peace” as natural corollaries in a Western context, when discussing Islam, it is more accurate to talk of “war and deceit.” For, from an Islamic point of view, times of peace—that is, whenever Islam is significantly weaker than its infidel rivals—are times of feigned peace and pretense, in a word, taqiyya.”
I just took a course on the Middle East. These articles are worth reading to understand the Middle East and its people. Yes, we westerners should learn about the “others” and understand they think and act differently. You can read the rest of the article which was very informative.
The link to the article is:
http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war
A very interesting article worth reading.
Hye, I repeat – just another Turkish ploy. And why in an Ankara, Turkey?
Absolutely not!!
Why not in a setting of any of the nations of the world where the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians is recognized – a civilized setting – in the whole wide world and not,- of all places in the the capital of the leading denialist, the guilty nation of a Turkey….
Bully Turkey – acts as a bully again, and again and again – and the world abides by an obvious bully! Wake up world, morality is being ignored!
Bullies – ‘winners’ of the Genocides they perpetuate – murderers, torturers, rapists, and child kidnappers, and more – today ‘winners’
“Losers” in the Genocides of the 20th century all the victims – all those tortured, slain, kidnapped, women/children burned alive in churches – and all the survivors who had to live with the vile memories – the losers!
So, how to allow the ‘winner’ Turkey (to date) to call the shots for when, where, and how any discussions shall proceed with those whose forebears were the survivors children, grandchildren, and more, there great-grandchildren – never to forget what Ottoman Turks and all their
subsequent leaderships – even into 2010 – now still seek the eliminations of Armenians – still claim the Armenian lands and culture as Turkish.
bullies = winners
victims = ‘losers’?
Yet further, in the whole world , by not ending the cycle of the the Genocides – are we ALL not ‘losers’ ?
for the cycle of Genocides will continue… Whomever, wherever, whenever, shall be the next Genocide victim… waiting to happen and the civlized world stance is – nothing to end the cycle of Genocide.
But yet, in all these civilized societies none of them ‘tolerate/allow’ the crimes of murder, crime of kidnapping, crime of rapes, religious intolerance, and more…
But yet, when as these same crimes are forced upon a victim nation – these same civilized nations will not come together to end the cycle of what we now label as ‘Genocides’ – or do we give it this label – ignoring the horrors.
So, now the Sudanese are attempting to deny their Genocide of the
Darfurians – their model is the ‘denialist’ Turks!!
And the world is unable to bring these despots – of convoluted mentalities,
unable to be one with the civilized nations – yet still able to commit any and all they Genocides – undeterred agains the the victims – and again, we are all the losers – humanity the losers…
Manooshag
ABOVE,WHAT ANOYMOUS WRITES IS A TYPICALLY CONCEIVED,RATHER CONCOCTED UP VIEWPOINT THAT IS CURRENTLY BEING DIFFUSED/DISSEMINATED FOR A PUBLIC THAT IS OBSESSED WITH RELIGION-WISE ISSUES.
TRTH OF THE MATTER-FOR ALL TO SEE,WATCH COMPREHEND THE REAL LIVING EXAMPLES:-
I R A N ,a republic that is ,what is more so declared”ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF
IRAN” Pray tell me reply to this post; How come then, there are no such terrorist cells in that republic no terrorist acts directed in any country-albeit the only one being Lebanon,where the locals -viz. Northern part of ebanon ,in conflct ,nay warfare with Israel-that is openly a war like struggle…nothing to do with what other moslem such are doing?
Iran is the living example that the above concocted up stories belong to those who make them up.One more LIVING TRUTH EXAMPLE…
WITH NEIGHBOUR A R M E N I A ,,,IRAN is so neighbourly, so friendly and in fact benevolent, while blockaded by the other two neighbours Azerbaijan and Turkey..Iran did not spare any effort to come to aid of Armenia.it is said very commonly in Yerevan that day in day out hundreds of trucks are shuttling between the two countries transprting goods toe ach other…
So that B…sh is food of thought to those who don’t know above reality…
A STOUTLY ISLAM-RELIGIOS COUNTRY AND PUBLIC-YET VERY UNDERSTANDING WITH CHRISTIAN NEIGHBOUR A R M E N I A …THEIR PREVIOUS PRESIDENT AYAAT OLLLH KHATAMI WENT AD RENDERED IS RESPECTS AT TSITASRNAKAPERT SEVERAL YEARS AGO…
THIS TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE AFOREMENTIONED TWO BELICOSE TWO STATES-IN ESTENSION THEIR HARD HEADED DIPLOMATS…
ENOUGH OF THOSE LIES….
IT IS NOT RELIGION…AN ERSON COMMUNITY PEOPLE HAS THE RIGHT TO WORSHIP WHATEVER RELIGION THEY BELIEVE IN..
IT IS THE RESECTIVE COUNTRYS’ EDUCATION-NOT NECESSARY RELIGIOS-COLD BE LAY,,,THAT HAS BROUGHT UP A GENERATION FULL OF WRONG BELEFS…LIKE THE NAZI GERMANY’S YOUTH …THEN…AND NOW TURKEY’S..
PLEASE DO NOT MIX RELIGION WITH BEHAVIOUR-STANCE…
I strongly believe that some more conferences like this should be held in both Ankara or Yerevan. Let’s see what they might bring out. Probably not much, as both Turks and Armenians will keep believing what they believe today, but even if a few people begin thinking differently, that is still to be considered a success.
Resoman,
I’d venture into assuming that at this juncture it is that important and relevant what Turks and Armenians keep believing because the rest of the world already knows, based on their own archival materials and witness accounts, as to what happenned in 1915-1921, who were the perpetrators, what the name of their crime was, and how they should acknowledge and apologize to the victim-nation. The number of countries and organizations recognizing the historical fact is growing and I think in the case of denialist Turks international recognition and not conferences in Ankara or Yerevan will yield results and invite the Turkish government to apologize to the Armenians… after 95 years… at last.
Can anyone provide independent confirmation of the conference? I am having a hard time finding any evidence that the conference will actually occur, other than this website or others citing it.
To Ahmet,
Russia has traditionally sded with Armenia.Besides, in case of your imagined conflict-I did not mention that,you did- I only said if the U.S. U.k let go of Turkey, Turkey wll change stance, to that effect.No word of conflict -war was mentioed by me..
As to Resoman,s post.I wrote above, I did participate in Armeno turlish Conf. it is not bad,PROVIDED THE ATTENDEES ARE NOT “BRAIN-WASHED OR GIVEN NOTICE BY THE PRESENT TURKISH JUNTA-GOV. THAT THEY KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY…OTHERWISE, THEY GO TO JAIL…
THAT IKS THE QUESTION…SO BETTER STICK TO ENLIGHTENING THE TURKISH PUBLIC-THIS IS HAPPENING IF NOT BY US ARMENIANS BY THE WHOLE WRLD…THEY ARE WITNESSING THE TURKISHBY AND BY COMING TO GRIPS…WITH REALITIES…IT WILL TAKE SOETIME.MEANWHILE ARMENIANS ALL OVER MUST BE PATIENT AND GO FROM PARLEMENT A PARLEMENT AS PROFFESSOR YEVES TERNON-LAST SRING IN PARIS “SGGESTED TO US…
BEST WAY IS THAT.INDEED MR. AHMET WE SALL WELCOME MORE ENVOYRTS TO RA, WHETHER FROM GOV. FUNCTIONARIES OR STUDENTS..
THEY WILL EVENTUALLY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS TIME OVER IT IS NOT 2/3 MILLION ARMENIANS IN THEIR MILLENIA OLD HABITAT WEST ARMENIA,BUT CLOSE TO 20 MILLION K U R D S ..are they going to EVICT THEM AS WELL.PRAY TELL ME HOW?
SO NO TALK OF CONFLCT/WAR.BUT IF YOU MUST KNOW THE NEW WAR-FARE IS BASED ON MISSILES NOT “ASKERLER” INVADING…
Easy r. Easy be a bit compromising…
Ermeniler …WWILL NOT DISAPPEAR FROM THE FACE OF EARTH…
an interview with one of the participants (in armenian)
http://azg.am/AM/2010040308
it also mentions it was reported in a misrepresented way in hurriyet.
To Kars;
I am not a government representative here, and I am not the authorized one to apologize about anything. Please read my other comments, we’ve also lost many members of my family, and I don’t expect any apology from anyone. Also, my family, both father side and mother side has never been to eastern Turkey. We were 1,300 miles away from the places that sad incident had happened.
I always support the dialogs between the people. There is nothing to loose, but so much to gain.
Yes, Resoman, it is based on your other comments that I wrote. And I think they’re deeply flawed or hughly cynical in that under the disguise of pacifism, internationalism, and hypothetical ‘dialogue among all peoples’, you seem to covertly advance the idea of putting the recognition of your State’s crime to rest indefinitely. While pacifism, internationalism, and dialogue among all peoples are very important and desirable, the issue here is fundamentally different. If and when your State extends an apology to the Armenians for the crime, you’ll see how soon both peoples will engage in international contacts and dialogues on the whole lot of issues. Unless the neighbor-state denies its crime and its efforts at denial are ongoing, Armenians cannot trust the Turks. I think a dialogue prior to recognition of the genocide is possible, but it cannot be complete without recognition and apology.