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Mouradian: Ankara Conference Looks Beyond Genocide, Debates Reparations
ANKARA, Turkey (A.W.)—On April 24, as genocide commemoration events were being held one after the other in different locations in Istanbul, a groundbreaking two-day conference on the Armenian Genocide began at the Princess Hotel in Ankara.
L to R: Nishanian, Theriault, moderator Eugene Shouglin, Mouradian, and Demirer.
The conference, organized by the Ankara Freedom of Thought Initiative, was held under tight security measures. The hall was thoroughly searched on both mornings by policemen and security dogs; metal detectors were installed at the entrance of the hotel; and all members of the audience had to be cleared by the organizers before entering. Unlike the commemoration events in Istanbul, however, no counter-demonstrations were allowed to materialize.
The conference attracted around 200 attendees, mostly activists and intellectuals who support genocide recognition. Among the prominent names from Turkey were Ismail Besikci, Baskin Oran, Sevan Nishanian, Ragip Zarakolu, Temel Demirer, and Sait Cetinoglu.
Besikci was the first in Turkey to write books about the Kurds “at a time when others did not even dare to use the ‘K’ word,” as one Turkish scholar put it. Besikci spent years in Turkish prison for his writings. Oran is a professor of political science. He was one of the initiators of the apology campaign launched by Turkish intellectuals. Nishanian is a Turkish-Armenian scholar who has authored several books and also writes for Agos. Zarakolu is a publisher who has been at the forefront of the struggle for Armenian Genocide recognition in Turkey with the books he has published over the years. Demirer is an author who has been prosecuted for his daring writings and speeches. Cetinoglu is a scholar and activist, and was one of the key organizers of the conference.
The poster of the conference
The foreign scholars and activists who were scheduled to speak were David Gaunt (genocide scholar, author of Massacres, Resistance, Protectors: Muslim-Christian Relations in Eastern Anatolia During World War I), Henry Theriault (professor of philosophy, Worcester State University), Khatchig Mouradian (doctoral student in Holocaust and genocide studies, Clark University; editor, the Armenian Weekly), Harry Parsekian (president of Friends of Hrant Dink in Boston), and Eilian Williams (writer and activist from Wales). All except for Gaunt spoke on the panel dealing with “The Armenian Issue: What is to be done and how?”
Reparations: Unjust or Indispensable?
That panel, which proved to be the most controversial, also featured Nishanian, Zarakolu, and Demirer, and turned out into a debate on reparations for the Armenian Genocide with all the panelists, as well as Oran and others from the audience, pitching in.
Mouradian spoke about the importance of reframing the discourse in Turkey and dealing with the Armenian Genocide issue not only from the perspective of democracy and freedom of speech, but also that of justice. He dealt with the concepts of apology and restitution.
Theriault, in turn, said, “Turkey must return or compensate for all expropriated property. It should return land and other wealth, including Armenian Church properties, when that wealth has been preserved.” He noted that Turkey should also compensate for (1) all destroyed property and wealth that is otherwise no longer accessible, (2) the interest that can be calculated on the original material losses, (3) slave labor, (4) the pain and suffering of those who died and all who survived, (5) the loss of 1.5 million people in general and as specific family and community members, and (6) the loss of cultural, religious, and educational institutions and opportunities.
Nishanian categorically dismissed Theriault’s demands for reparations, considering them a dead-end, and noting that such an approach is unjust, unacceptable, and would open the door for further conflict. Demirer, in a brilliant intervention, provided a scathing response to Nishanian, arguing powerfully for reparations. Williams, too, spoke in support of reparations.
Armenian property and the historical context
The panel on “abandoned” Armenian properties also generated a lot of interest. It featured scholars and writers Asli Comu, Nevzat Onaran, Mehmet Palatel (whose MA dissertation is on the confiscation of Armenian property), and Cemil Ertem.
The panel on “Official ideological denial and extirpation from the Committee of Union and Progress to Kemalism” featured scholars Osman Ozarslan and Tuma Celik, as well as Cetinoglu and Besikci.
The panel on the Armenian Genocide from a historical perspective featured Adil Okay, Nahir Sayin, and Oran. Gaunt was scheduled to speak on this panel but could not attend.
The representatives of the organizations supporting the conference spoke at the last session.
Significance of the conference
It was the first time that a conference on the Armenian Genocide that did not host any genocide deniers was held in Ankara. Moreover, the conference did not simply deal with the historical aspect of 1915. For the first time in Turkey, a substantial part of the proceedings was dedicated to topics such as confiscated Armenian property, reparations, and the challenges of moving forward and confronting the past in Turkey.
86 Comments
Think outside the tiny, little, bigoted box you have put your mind in for a minute, and try to understand that there actually was a very different reality operating in Turkey that allowed the genocide to take place…without the sultan even knowing about it or giving consent to it.
Do you mean to say that Sultan Abdul Hamid II, nicknamed by the Europeans as ‘Bloody Sultan’ for his widespread massacres of non-Turks, has not given orders to commit mass murders of the Armenians in 1894-96? Up to 300,000 Armenians are believed to be killed during the Hamidian massacres. You mean the Sultan, too, was unaware back then? Or he, too, was a crypto-Jew and a freemason? You get your mind out of the tiny, little, bigoted box you’ve put it in… You cannot differentiate between the alleged ethnic origin or secret affiliation of CUP members and the state authority they represented at the time of the annihilation of the Armenians. Essentially, it doesn’t matter who they were ethnically. Yes, Emmanuel Carasso, the founder of the CUP was Jewish-Italian B’nai B’rith official, Mehmed Talat is believed to be of Jewish origin, as were Djavid Bey, Refik Bey (Refik Saydam), and Vladimir Jabotinsky. Mustafa Kemal is believed to be born to Jewish parents in Salonika. Many CUP members were also Freemasons.
But you fail to acknowledge the fact that in 1915 they represented the Turkish State. It is on their orders Armenians were massacred and mutilated, deported, their property stolen, and their religious and cultural marbles destroyed.
Several notorious dictators and criminals had diverse ethnic background, but they’re condemned in their capacity as rulers of their respective States, not because of their ethnicity. Josef Stalin was a Georgian, but he was the ruler of the Russian State, and his Great Purge is denounced as a crime against humanity. Adolf Hitler allegedly had Jewish blood, but he was the ruler of the German State, and Nazism is denounced as a crime against humanity. Napoleon was a member of the Corsican nobility of Italian origin, but he was the ruler of the French Consulate and oppressor of many nations. Maximilien de Robespierre allegedly was of Irish descent, but it wouldn’t stop him and other members of the radical Jacobin party to organize ‘blood bath’ in the form of French Revolution as a leader of the French Republic. Pol Pot was of Chinese descent but perpetrated the genocide of the Cambodians as the ruler of the State of Kampuchea and the leader of the Khmer Rouge regime.
The genocide of the Armenians was perpetrated for a variety of reasons. Theft is just one of them. Other motives for committing mass murder of the Armenians were Turkish traditional intolerance of ethnic, religious, and cultural minorities that inhabited the area long before the Seljuk invasion; fear for national liberation from the Turkish yoke that could eventually dismember the empire; fear for entrepreneurial and business prowess by the Armenians that could take part of the political and economic power from the Turks; and fear for Russian advances through the Armenian-populated areas who Turks feared would side with as Christians. The fear for Russian advances deeper into the Middle East through Armenian-populated areas was also shared by the Germans who covertly instigated the deportations and massacres of the Armenians. The British, too, wouldn’t want to see that happening. The whole ancient civilization was wiped out because of a set of domestic, and some external, interests.
The Armenian Genocide, as well as earlier Hamidian massacres, was planned and executed by the legal government of the Turkish State. Therefore, the modern-day Turkish State is responsible for denying the crime. It is the Turkish State that must repent and ask for forgiveness from the Armenians.
My admiration goes out to both SG and Iao for demonstrating how civilized and respectful people can navigate from hurt feelings to a sincere apology.
Iao… I agree with you…
SG- I too want to apologize if my words were hurtful. That was not my intention.. However, i am glad that you understood why I said what I said by putting yourself in my state of mind… My family lost too much because of the Genocide; hence why many things related to Turkey just does not sit well with me….. No matter how democtratic the country is and how much I want to believe that allowing this will not interfere with the people living in Armenia, I just don’t agree with the mosques in Armenia…If it is for political reasons, and my country decides to open mosques, i can’t do much about it or cant stop them… I truly respect your view point .. but I still stand firm what I said about it..Thank you for you open mind and understanding…..Your input is very much welcome…….
Janine jan.. apres kuyrik jan for always stating the obvious and the truth…
Karekin… NO COMMENT….
Gayane
Yes, thank you everyone for your sincere comments, as already expressed by others above
ARM – You are filling me in on a lot of things I don’t know! Thank you for your learned expression of history, please keep informing me!
Ayo Ayo… Boyajian.. it is because SG is intelligent enough to understand the stand we are taking and the reason behind it.. Hence why I respect and admire SG (as I always said in the past). If every Turk was as understanding and open minded as SG, our issue would have been resolved 95 years ago… Just because we don’t see eye to eye or agree with each other’s every view, it does not mean we can’t voice our own and YES, also apologize if our comments were hurtful.. I believe in many things (strongly) but I also have the capability to acknowledge someone else’s belief…
Arm jan.. Janine is correct in stating that you are another great writer with great data… Thank you from me as well…
Gayane
As ARM says, ‘Yes, Emmanuel Carasso, the founder of the CUP was Jewish-Italian B’nai B’rith official, Mehmed Talat is believed to be of Jewish origin, as were Djavid Bey, Refik Bey (Refik Saydam), and Vladimir Jabotinsky. Mustafa Kemal is believed to be born to Jewish parents in Salonika. Many CUP members were also Freemasons’. All true, however these people were revolutionaries who overtook the Ottoman Empire and then instituted a series of secret bureaus to plan and carry out the genocide according to their specific orders. And no, at that point, the sultan was not even aware of their activities. The ARF had a very close relationship w/ the CUP for a while, until the CUP turned on them in a vicious, angry way. This may be why key ARF leaders were among those targeted on April 24…they knew too much and were the brains of the Armenian community at that time. Once eliminated, they could not talk about exactly who had planned the genocide…and this information has been kept under wraps for a long time. Certainly, villagers living hundreds and thousands of miles from the center of govt had no idea who actually planned their demise. They were just victims, without knowing why, how or who ordered it. The point here is that when a sinister group hijacks the govt of a major power, they can do major damage. Just witness the outcomes of the neo-cons in the US and the death and destruction they have wrought across the world, all the while emptying the US treasury into their and their friend’s pockets. There is a long tradition of this in world history, it was not unique to Turkey or the US today.
Janine, it was a friend who recently moved to CA from Utah told me that story. He was looking for a new church and attended sermons of a few. I know murder is a crime and is once again reminded as the 6th commandment. That is why we both couldn’t reason such statement.
Iao, my mp3 player playing on shuffle started play Mair Araks – Djivan Gasparyan as I started to read the part about your grandparents’ house in your comment. It was an odd yet an appropriate coincidence. I have no idea when or how the reconciliations and reparations will be handled in future but I do hope you or your family can get that house back.
Gayane, thank you for your kind words and no, I was not offended. I happen to come from an only-in-theory-Muslim family, true, but am no believer in Islam. Yet, when someone makes a generalization I fall into the category of Muslims. It can be a bit bothersome sometimes
Karekin, I have heard so much nonsense from you I am now ignoring your comments. I just don’t feel there is going to be anything worth reading anymore except more things that are misleading and diversions.
SG – Thanks again. You know, since you are a Muslim I will say the following, if only to inform you in case you didn’t know. Jesus, first of all, extended notions of murder into the ways in which we treat one another. From him, we learn that it is not just the literal statute that has power and meaning, but something also in our hearts.
Secondly, Jesus himself warned us that many would come in his name who seek to deceive his followers, but that they are wolves in sheep’s clothing. He warned us all. Thanks for listening
Armen – have you ever heard of provocation? People who wish to stir the pot? Well, whether it is intentional or not, that is what has happened here and it continues to happen — destruction of dialogue (except for those who respond with new facts and good information).
Karekin, you are not writing anything in the past week at least that has been worth reading except to mislead, misdirect, and create diversion and chaos here. I feel that whatever you write will continue to have the effect of scrambling with misleading “facts” that don’t exist.
oops my last comment was posted on the wrong thread, sorry
Janine: You are a lovely person.
What I am thinking in regards to Karekin’s and others’ comments about the Zionist conspiracy is:
I follow the reports about antisemitism around the world published by the European Jewish Congress and, in regards to Armenia, the report stated that many Armenians are mad at Israel for doing business with Turkey; and also believe that Israel does not pass the genocide recognition bill because they were guilty of the Armenian genocide. I was flabbergasted at this conspiracy theory and hurt because I know it is not true, and since my aunt who lived in Turkey after taking refuge from the Russian Revolution, married an Armenian and our family had many lovely, lovely Armenian friends in the USA (one an opera singer, one the town librarian, one a great artist, one a photographer); and none of our Armenian friends were antisemitic. Thank you Armenian Weekly for discussing this conspiracy theory (which I too never heard of before) in several of your articles. Like I stated, this may be a form of denial, where the perpetrator (the Turks) try to blame another group for their crime. Hrant Dink’s murderer too tried to blame the zionists; however, the investigation showed that the murderers may have been nationalists who wanted to bring down Erdogan’s govt. and wanted to blame the murder on Islamists, but when they were caught, even tried to blame Zionists.
However, even though Armenian Weekly prints good articles disclaiming the Zionist conspiracy theory, people still post here and believe in the Zionist conspiracy theory, so their mind is of the kind to border on paranoia, prejudice, etc. The Russians and Iran are also xenophobic and antisemitic; you may call them bigots.
Getting back to the issue of Israel’s acknowledging the Armenian genocide bill. It would make me happy if they would finally pass it so that I would be assured it would lessen antisemitism in Armenia. However, we all watch what Israel is doing and I also read parts of Yair Auron’s book (a very good book) about Armenian genocide denial in Israel; and I have also followed discussion about the issue on the internet. I think this year more people brought up the issue in the Knesset; you certainly have many friends who want to pass it; and some in the controversial Yisrael Beiteinu party did not (note: this party is controversial).
The problem for Armenians is Turkey; the fact that the USA and Israel do business with Turkey. Also, a problem for the USA is Russia, the fact that Armenia is allied with Russia (the “Great War” for power and influence btw Russia and the USA in the region).
I was worried about the Armenian genocide survivors in Lebanon as well as my relatives in Israel after the Lebanon war in 2006.
I hope that a peace agreement can be reached with Syria and that Iran can lose its nuclear ambitions, and another war will not hurt more Lebanese and Israelis. I hope these Zionists conspiracy theories don’t lead people in Lebanon and in the Palestinian terroritories to start a new war against Israel, from a hatred that has no basis in reality. But I guess that happens, people will start fights for real or imaginary reasons.
As for Turkey and Armenian genocide denial; it seems not everyone is happy with Obama or with Israel. This may lead to antisemitism among Armenians; I hope I could make you realize that Israel’s dealing with Turkey has nothing to do with its being guilty of plotting against Armenians. Of course, thank you, Armenian Weekly, for the fine articles. I would hope they educate some people about this issue and prevent antisemitism in the Armenians. As Abe Lincoln said, “you can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.” However, it looks like some of the people will be fooled all of the time (or that some people will remain bigots or members of hate groups).
Actually, Israel’s not passing the Armenian genocide bill may still be the core of the problem in Armenia-Israel relations; and I am hoping that this issue will be resolved in the future.
It is dangerous because, as many stated, not acknowledging the Armenian genocide, may make it easier in the future for people, like Ahmadinejad, to deny the Holocaust; and that indeed would be a tragedy.
I hope this conference will make progress towards getting reparations, maybe a part of your homeland back (under mutual agreement and shared powers), restoration of your churches and monuments; and of course, Turkey must state that it was the perpetrator of the Armenian genocide and teach the facts, not denial or blaming others, in its schools; and allow freedom of speech on this issue (all which may help lessen the spread of Zionist conspiracy theories).
Instead of being terse w/ me for citing facts that have been outlined elsewhere by many historians, you should be more accurately angry at those and their organizations who actively deny the genocide and pursue anti-Armenian activities. Instead of attacking and accusing what someone sees as a ‘conspiracy theory’, why not go after those who participate in the conspiracy against the Armenians? This has been going on for a long, long time. They’re the culprits, not me. Their organizations work very hard against anything Armenian and take hundreds of millions of dollars from the Turkish govt to do it. Call it what you want, but they are accomplices…plain and simple. This just shows how quick people are to play that card, while continuing to ignore the facts on the ground. Wake up people….those who smile at you and pretend to be your friends are stabbing you in the back at the same time. THEY should be the object of your frustration….!
Dear anonymous,
Thank you for your kind compliment and your message. You seem to have a grasp of what is going on, and a broad experience of cultures in your life.
The problem for Armenians within the United States has been the lobbying against the Genocide Recognition bills by various Jewish lobbying groups like the ADL. Foxman perhaps is most prominent because he has been the target of a campaign not just by Armenians but also by Jews and members of the ADL who are annoyed that the ADL’s campaign against hate does not include the Armenian Genocide in their education program. I think that because of activism (on the part of Armenians and Jews working together on this) it has been somewhat ameliorated but Foxman still minces his words on the genocide. For we Armenians, I think we feel that Jews should be our natural allies in the face of our mutual experience, but this does not happen because of politics. Certainly from the Jewish viewpoint, it would seem that no political expediency should ever get in the way of the recognition of the Holocaust, and Armenians feel the same way about the genocide — especially from a people who are fellow victims of such actions (and given the famous quote by Hitler which indicated that he himself had the Armenian genocide in mind when he taught his generals to be utterly ruthless). Anyway, that is the understandable perspective. But fortunately, a lot of this seems to changing right now — and in my opinion that is the reason why Turkey may be feeling the need to change.
In the recent vote in the House Committee ALL of the Jewish members (presumably all pro-Israel) voted FOR the measure. All of them. There has been a shift indeed even if the Knesset is stirring in a clearly different direction — let us hope it continues. Activists both Jewish and Armenian will continue to work together here in the US for this to happen.
correction, I wrote:
There has been a shift indeed even if the Knesset is stirring in a clearly different direction — let us hope it continues
correction: that should read “even as the Knesset…”
Karekin, as I said, I am ignoring your comments – which IMO either deliberately or otherwise simply stir a pot of hatred and throw mud on all of us rather than engaging in dialogue
anonymous,
Two things, if I may. First, the notion ‘anti-Semitic’ should be used cautiously. Unfortunately, the term is being used to describe attitudes or instances prejudiced against or hostile to Jews only. Whereas Jews are not the only Semitic people, there are several ancient Semitic peoples associated by close geographic and linguistic distribution, many non-existent already. Certainly, Arabs, are a Semitic people, too. Second, the notions of ‘Jewish’ and ‘Zionist’ should be used with caution because the word ‘Zionist’ is sometimes used as a synonym for Jew and anti-Zionists may use motifs previously associated with anti-Semitic (i.e. anti-Jewish) views.
This said, I’d like to reiterate that despite the fact that there exists conclusive evidence that several high-ranking Young Turks were of Jewish origin and Freemasons, Armenians generally believe that the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide were Ottoman Turks with the help of local Kurds. The ethnicity of several Young Turk leaders is, indeed, irrelevant. The fact that based on Jewish oral traditions Armenians are considered Amalekites (although Armenians certainly don’t fall under the definition of an ancient nomadic tribe described in the Old Testament as relentless enemies of Israel who need to be all exterminated) is also irrelevant. Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid II was neither a Jew nor Freemason. However, he gave orders to massacre some 300,000 Armenians in 1894-1896. Similarly, the prevailing majority of the Ottoman Turks, too, was neither Jews nor Freemasons, and wouldn’t have supported Young Turks government had they not shared, with exceptions of course, the same envious and antagonistic attitude towards the Armenians.
As a state authority representing Turkey in 1915, Turkish government officials at the time, notwithstanding their ethnicity and social affiliation, are responsible for committing the genocide of the Armenians. Modern-day Turkey, therefore, will admit the guilt and extend apologies to the Armenians. End of story.
Karekin,
I think that focusing on the leadership and their background is important, and definately some were donmeh and likely Sabbatean, but orthodox Judaism had cast out the Sabattean sect as an aberration (i.e. it is more like a cult than an accepted member of the Jewish people). Further, if you delve deeper into the actual belief systems of the elite of the CUP, you will find that most were atheist and / or believed in paganism. Regardless, even if the CUP leadership were all Armenian, or Chinese, or Nigerian, or Brazilian, the crime of genocide can’t be attributed to 3 or 30 people. The tragic fact is that the entire population, for the most part, gladly took part in the killings, theft, and abduction. If the U.S. president and his ministers and part of the Congress passed a resolution demanding the march of Mexicans through the desert to Mexico, do you think it would succeed ? Of course not, because the general population is against it. In the Ottoman Empire, with the Armenians were viewed as second class and as the terror and degradations became worse WITH NO punishment for hundreds of years, it was an easy step for the general population to take. Also, remember that the millions of Balkan muslims who were forced out of the Balkans were resettled in Armenia, and you can imagine they did not need any encouragement to murder Christians. The heart of the matter was the entire setup of the millet system, which seemed destined to lead to destruction of the second class citizens if the Muslims would not accept them as equals. Also, if you want to investigate other accomplices to the crime, you should evaluate Germany as well as Western nations, who desired the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, and to ensure that it would not rise again, the Armenians had to be destroyed as we were the economic engine and the agricultural base. Despite all of that, there is no doubt that the Armenian genocide was perpetrated by the Turks, Kurds, and allied groups AS A WHOLE. Their parliament and the majority of the population wanted Talaat Pasha’s body brought back as a hero in 1943, so there was not a great deal of remorse and it is evident that the population as a whole approved of the so-called ‘relocation’ program into the sunny Syrian desert. Also, to say that ‘the Jews were behind it’, also misses another key point, in that Jews are similar to Armenians, in that you put two in a room, and they will form 10 opposing groups and build 5 temples. Even now, the chief critics of Israel are turning out to be American Jews. It is easier, mentally and psychologically, to find a group of evil criminals to blame, because when you realize the extent of the involvement of the population, it is crushing and hope disappears, but we have to remember the era of 1915, in which 100,000 European soldiers would die to advance 1 km on a barren plain in Europe – life had much less value and there was very little communication and education, especially outside Bolis.
Thanks,Armen
Quick point:
Abdul Hamid was half Armenian, so does it mean that Armenians were responsible for the Red Massacres of 1896 – a ‘self” massacre ?
Also, if the population is being controlled by Zionists, why is it that Turkey sells the Protocols of Zion in the street, and in many surveys, is the most anti-semetic of countries?
A great deal of Turkey alliance with Israel is a vengeful response to the Arab revolt of 1916, which was the most devestating of the losses of the Ottoman Empire (imagine if they didn’t lose the Middle East, Turkey would have control of 80% of the world’s oil)
Thanks ARM and Armen for your helpful comments
Of course this made me laugh, in a good way
Also, to say that ‘the Jews were behind it’, also misses another key point, in that Jews are similar to Armenians, in that you put two in a room, and they will form 10 opposing groups and build 5 temples
Yes, I think we have a lot in common
Armen – excellent points!!
Abdul Hamid was half Armenian, so does it mean that Armenians were responsible for the Red Massacres of 1896 – a ’self” massacre ?
Also, if the population is being controlled by Zionists, why is it that Turkey sells the Protocols of Zion in the street, and in many surveys, is the most anti-semetic of countries?
Well, we suspect where these ideas being posted here come from – and they are to create diversion from those truly responsible. Armenian Weekly has posted articles about this too, I think
A great deal of Turkey alliance with Israel is a vengeful response to the Arab revolt of 1916, which was the most devestating of the losses of the Ottoman Empire (imagine if they didn’t lose the Middle East, Turkey would have control of 80% of the world’s oil)
Thank you!!
I heard this speech live, I think it’s relevant (wish I could find the youtube link to show all how strong his speech was):
Sen. Schumer, a loyal friend of the Armenian community for decades, said that the truth always prevails and as a Jewish-American he can relate to the Armenians in their efforts to have the genocide be recognized.
“Again I say to the Turkish government, give up your losing battle to deny the Armenian Holocaust,” urged Schumer. “When you deny that evil has occurred, it paves the road for evil to occur again.” He also stressed his interest in helping Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh.
- from an Armenian Reporter article, “Commemoration Defies Mother Nature”
Sen Boxer, Rep Schiff and many others like Rep. Berman who heads the House committee on foreign affairs — so many of those who lead the fight for genocide recognition in the US are Jewish elected politicians.
Armen makes some key points, which I don’t disagree with at all. However, as with any and all crimes, follow the money. This is a time honored tradition in resolving criminal cases. The Armenian genocide was a crime of mega-proportions, which is something we can all agree on. Now, let’s examine where all that Armenian wealth went. My research shows over and over again that Armenian businesses, properties, bank accounts, etc. etc, etc., were appropriated by those closest to the key CUP members who planned the genocide. In effect, they rewarded their supporters in big ways. Moreover, most of those who benefited were yes, Salonika donmeh who migrated to Istanbul en-masse…to take advantage of the spoils. If there is ever a true examination of the post genocide period, I think these facts will be revealed, esp. since those families are now the richest and most powerful in Turkey…in business and politics….they all got their start based on Armenian foundations…and, to this day, are all still donmeh, which is a very clever way of hiding their true origins, and slipping past those who want to examine history. This is why Turkey has and maintains such close ties w/ Israel, which also has roots in Rothschild’s attempt to buy Palestine from the sultan w/ an offer of $100 million.
As far as I know, the wealth of the Armenians was taken to pay off the Turkish government’s debt.
One problem or obstacle to genocide recognition in Turkey may be that some Turkish nationalists, who were very ordinary people (a grocer, a porter) took some of the money and made themselves rich (some of the richest families now); and they would have to admit to this crime in order for the Armenian genocide to be recognized. I have no knowledge they were Jewish (that may be just conspiracy theory).
The tax in 1940′s took away a lot of the non-Turkish wealth; and those who did not pay went to labor camps. The purpose of the tax, it is believed, was to force all non-Turks out of Turkey; but you can see, some still stayed, and at what a
terrible price to remain in Turkey enduring all this harassment. No wonder some non-Turks would prefer to remain hidden.
The editor of Milliyet was a donmeh, made his money from the newspaper; however, he was a liberal and was assassinated under the strangest circumstances.
The first President of Israel was from Turkey (in fact, one or two of them), so this may explain how Israel-Turkey relations were formed in the beginning.
p.s. Karekin, you say you have researched and found that donmehs are guilty of taking Armenian wealth (I think this is conspiracy theory).
You can not really tell who is a donmeh, unless they tell you; for the object of being hidden is not to have anyone find out you are hidden (this may help the conspiracy theorists; and p.s., they won’t ever tell you if they are donmehs to help us clear up this controversy – so good luck).
The only donmehs I have discovered so far in my readings is the editor of Milliyet, who revealed he was one; plus the first President of Israel, who I believe came from that group.
And, also Halide Edip’s father was a donmeh, while her mother was a muslim.
The mystery and hiddenness of the donmehs may contribute to conspiracy theories, but don’t expect the donmehs to come out of the closet.
Would all the hidden Armenians want to come out of the closet in Turkey?
The witch hunt in Turkey goes on however to find them.
Where there is ambiguity and non clarity, conspiracy theory does arise.
There’s a provocative and potentially hazardous trend being carried out by some infamous commentators in these pages about the crypto-Jewish/freemasonic conspiracy in perpetrating the race annihilation of the Armenians, expropriating their wealth, businesses, personal properties, bank accounts, etc., and continuing to deny the genocide by the Israeli government as a form of support of their ethnic and religious next-of-kin in the higher echelons of the Turkish state. While evidence supports the fact that some of the CUP members were crypto-Jews (the Donmeh) and freemasons, as well as an allegation that the so-called Sabbatean Jews still hold high ranks in the Turkish government and the military, the massacres of the Armenians in the 1894-1986 and the Mets Yeghern (Genocide) in 1915-1923, were carried out by the millions of federal and provincial authorities that comprised of Turks and local Kurdish gangs on orders by consecutive leaderships of the Turkish State: first, from 1894 to 1896, by Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid II; then, from 1915 to 1920, by the Ottoman Young Turks government; and lastly, from 1920 to 1923, by the Kemalist government. Too many factors, domestic and external, geographical and geopolitical, geostrategic and economic, financial and budgetary, psychological and behavioral, ethnic and religious, intercommunal and societal, many of them not interrelated and others strongly related, have contributed to perpetration of the genocide of the Armenians. To single out the alleged ethnicity of the perpetrators as the sole determinant motive behind the crime is, softly speaking, misleading, unfounded, and essentially provocative. At the times of massacres and mass extermination all the perpetrators represented the legitimate authority of the Turkish State, their alleged ethnicity and alleged religious beliefs notwithstanding. It is, therefore, the modern-day Turkish State that must admit the crime and apologize to the Armenians. If alleged ethnicity and religiosity of the past Turkish governments is so important as to being determinative of the reasons for the past crimes, why would the modern-day Turkish State so stubbornly and shamelessly deny the crimes of the past? Attempts at readdressing the responsibility for the crimes from actual perpetrators representing the State onto some unrepresentative and illegitimate conspiratorial individuals that might stand behind their backs must be eradicated. That’s just another way of whitewashing the Turkish State and attempts at mind-tilting the Armenians. We never know the agenda of some commentators posting in these pages.
I agree with Anahit, it is diluting Turkish responsibility for the Armenian Genocide to say that a secret cadre of crypto Jews did it. Even if some CUP leaders were Donmeh, they alone did not carry out the genocide. It took thousands, if not millions of accomplices from among the Ottoman Turks and Kurds. Let’s not complicate the issue and confuse ourselves with conspiracy theories. The modern day Turkish State is the direct legal descendant and beneficiary of the Ottoman and CUP government (perpetrators). The acknowledgment, apology and restitution must come from the Turkish State. I am ready to forgive and move on once a sincere acknowledgment and reparation occurs.
nothing conspiratorial about it….just the facts. there were/are many…Emanuel Karasu of Salonika, for example, was a founding member of the Young Turks, and believed that the Jews of the Empire should be Turks first, and Jews second. Others include Ismail Cem, Ismet Inonu, probably Talat Pasha and even Ataturk himself.
http://www.search.com/reference/Donmeh
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=5&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=253&PID=0&IID=1669&TTL=The_Dönmes:_Crypto-Jews_under_Turkish_Rule
Karekin,
I do agree that the CUP leadership were motivated both by greed and dreams of a running half the Asian continent, however, the majority of the wealth was in Bolis, which had the lowest mortality rate. Indeed, one wonders how the enigmatic Gulbenkian was carrying out surveys in the East in 1915! Surely, he would have been target #1, but the level of racial and religious hatred increased exponentially the further east you travelled from Bolis – the survival rate was a 35% from the ‘relocation’ programs in the West but 5% in the east.
Also, the areas that Armenians lived in before are for the most part, especially in the east, almost the same as 1914. It is difficult to transition from a mountain nomadic tribal agha to an investment banker or physician, apparently, as all the areas in which Armenians were destroyed are some of the most underperforming in the world, relative to their natural wealth. There were more colleges in 1914 than in 2010. If money was the main motivator, you would want to enslave your merchants and tax them (the Ottoman way) because killing a jeweler, and taking over his store with no knowledge of the profession / no education / no literacy is a recipe for disaster. Simple jealousy and hate as well as a unique combination of looking up and looking down on the Armenians where the chief culprits. The jealousy came in with the abduction of the women and children because even in the dked villager’s mind, they hoped that injecting some Armenian ‘blood’ into the family would elevate them in some manner – which is unlike most other genocides. Indeed, even n Turkey today, if you look at the pictures of some of their intellectuals, professionals, etc.. I would suspect that a grandmother was Armenian by birth, who likely taught her half Turkish children the value of education, etc..
Finally, I think divisions among Armenians exacerbated the situation, because the Ottoman Empire was like a rabid dog in those days, which should either be confronted with all your energy to destroy it, or which you have to run away from. For the Turks, Armenians were second class conquered people, no matter what the constitution said or what Europeans thought. In that mentallity, they expected complete obedience, like a slave, and in that mentality, which is alien to Armenians due to our history, a conquered people could be dealt with in any manner they felt like, and during the era of the Sultan, didn’t he technically own all the land, the goods, and the people and like any owner, could do as he wished? Most Turks who defend the genocide do so without recognizing that a major source of their denial is this view of conquerer / conquered which persists today
Thank you, Anahit & anonymous…
Anonymous – my great grandfather owned a dry goods store with a Turkish partner in Kharpert (now near El Azig). When the soldiers came for him (he had meetings in his house), his mother went to the partner and said, “If you wanted the key to the store you could just have asked for it.” Great grandfather was tortured to death – this man got the store, plus my grandmother and her little brother. Fortunately my grandmother and her brother ran away to the orphanage to be with the other Armenian children. Great grandfather’s partner was NOT Jewish (no surprise there, eh?)
okay I couldn’t resist reading the short one – but I’m not going to bother with the link. Just want to respond to this
nothing conspiratorial about it….just the facts. there were/are many…Emanuel Karasu of Salonika, for example, was a founding member of the Young Turks, and believed that the Jews of the Empire should be Turks first, and Jews second
kind of like some bolsahyes who will do anything to put the blame off of the Turkish identity for this crime and throw mud on the Armenian community
Yes, Karekin and others: you are reading websites deliberately setup for native readers like you, websites that are antisemitic and blame the Jews.
Unfortunately, I have seen a side number of these websites and am horrified at the lies they spread.
I will say this although from what I read:
At times like this when Turkey is undergoing a huge change and chaos, as in 1915, the tendency to blame the donmehs for the changes and problems in Turkey increases. Alas, with the seeming dismantling of Ataturk’s elite and the change in regime to AKP, and/or some other changes, which I can not foretell on the horizon, there is much change in Turkey today. Maybe the changes will be better, maybe they will be worse, or things will remain the same.
As I thought, your research comes from the numerous websites with bogus information.
I think that because the donmehs keep hidden and will not reveal their identity, and they will not come out of hiding to defend themselves, they become easy targets for scapegoating by the Turks. Why for instance, do the Turks blame the donmehs, not the Jews who practice their religion in public?
Inonu was a Kurd and second president of Turkey.
Kurd is a Kurd, not a Jew. Now, I see they are attacking Inonu, the Kurd, also. very interesting.
Pardon my mistakes, also. Ben Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, studied law in Turkey and he helped establish ties with Turkey.
Some followers of Sabbatei Zevi (who were not donmeh) may have been in the first Israeli govt.; they were the first zionists after all, messianic zionists, who followed Sabbatei as the messiah. The Jews have had 250 messiahs in their history, not just Jesus, who has been the most widely followed. They suffered so much oppression, they looked for messiahs to save them (250 so far). They looked to religion to save them; so religion helps a lot of people; the problem is we should have tolerance for all religions.
Two points: Turkey is undergoing a lot of change now, and that may be one reason everyone in Turkey is looking for a scapegoat in the donmeh again.
And, the fact that two of the first leaders of Israel studied in Turkey is the reason they established ties with Turkey.
Why for instance, do the Turks blame the donmehs, not the Jews who practice their religion in public?
The most important and obvious question to those who THINK
Kurd is a Kurd, not a Jew. Now, I see they are attacking Inonu, the Kurd, also. very interesting.
Naturally. Pick the outsiders, the minority. Doesn’t matter who. Just like they picked the Christians before.
anonymous,
Two things.
Inonu was a Kurd and second president of Turkey
Mustafa İsmet İnönü is believed to have been a Dönmeh. It doesn’t really matter whether he was considered a Kurd or a Turk in public. He’s believed to be a Bulgarian Jew converted to Islam, as were the third president of Turkey Mahmut Celalettin Bayar and the blue-eyed founder of Turkey Mustafa Kemal, among others.
The Jews have had 250 messiahs in their history, not just Jesus, who has been the most widely followed
Jesus was born to the World not just the Jews, and as Son of God he has no ethnicity, as such. Mary, who gave biological birth to Jesus, was Jewish, but he was conceived by the Holy Spirit to be God’s presence on Earth. Unfortunately, the Jews missed the Messiah and treated Him harshly.
OK, I don’t want to turn this into a religious discussion, per se — but as a source of twisted interpretation that led to persecution and conspiracy theories of the type we are discussing, I write the following (see next paragraph). May I point out that Armenian and Greek Orthodox (Eastern Christianity) had in its history a greater sense of tolerance than in the West and did not engage in Inquisition – a fact which we must remember and honor. Even under Nazi occupation, the Greek church – for example – including the Archbishop in Athens in particular participated vigorously in resistance activities including helping the Jewish community, for example by issuing thousands of phony baptism certificates … and many of their names are at Yad Vashem, including those of Orthodox bishops. This is part of the reason why these conspiracy theories outrage me – they sully Orthodox tradition and history. They are not at all in the flavor of who we have always been. And there is a newly renovated medieval Jewish cemetery, showing evidence of a once-thriving community in Armenia, that prove it.
As a believing Orthodox Christian, may I interject here that it is the position of our Church that “the Jews who treated Him harshly” were the leadership of his time – not all Jewish people. In John’s gospel this is how the reference to “the Jews” is read by the Church – written at a time of persecution by the leadership, by an apostle who was himself a devout Jew. Indeed, Jesus was and all his closest followers and apostles were all devout Jews. In the gospels, both Jesus and John the Baptist are charismatic preachers, popular with the crowds – crowds of common people who delighted in their pointing out the hypocrisy of the leadership. If you have the Orthodox Study bible, please read the notes well regarding this subject. Orthodoxy has retained more than any other the connection with our ancient roots in terms of our understanding of spirituality. Let us remember that in this discussion. I do think this much is relevant, because this is about historically what our culture has accepted and understood. These theories go against the grain of our history and who we are as a people.
ARM – I don’t disagree with you about Jesus as a figure for all peoples, your point is well-taken. Nor do I think you were trying to sully anybody’s name – you are a well-reasoned person. I just wanted to clarify one point that has been taken in history and twisted.
Thank you, Janine. I understand and am grateful. Of course, the Pharisees and Sadducees are those whom I meant as “Jews treating Jesus harshly.” This so crystal clear for us that at times we mechanically forget that there may be readers of other faiths and beliefs here. Thanks for your valuable interjection.
ARM – thanks! As always!
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