Sassounian: Why Would Armenians Go to Akhtamar, and Become Tools of Turkish Propaganda?
Ever since the genocide, after nearly a century of banning Armenian church services, the Turkish government has finally decided to allow a one-time celebration of Mass to be held at the 10th-century Holy Cross Church on Akhtamar Island.
Questions have been raised about the prudence of attending the Sept. 19 church services to which the Turkish government has invited Armenians from around the world, members of the international media, and foreign ambassadors and dignitaries. Those calling for a boycott indicate that the true aim of the Turkish authorities is to score propaganda points with the European Union and the United States, by feigning tolerance towards Christians and other minorities. In reality, successive Turkish governments have carried out a systematic policy of eliminating all visible signs of Armenian presence throughout Western Armenia (Eastern Turkey) for over nine decades, during which more than 2,000 Armenian churches and monasteries have been destroyed or converted into non-religious use. The Holy Cross Church itself was targeted for demolition some years ago, but was saved by the intervention of a local Turkish official.
Critics of those traveling to Akhtamar also object to the Turkish government’s classification of the historic church as a “museum,” and holding services only once a year. After many requests and complaints, Turkish officials have finally promised to place a cross on the church’s dome.
There is no reason for Armenians to be grateful to a country that, after confiscating and destroying thousands of churches, is now allowing a religious ceremony in a single church, which it classifies as a museum. This church and thousands of others should belong to the Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul, and services should be held as needed, without governmental permission or interference.
Last week, tempers flared in Armenia when the Holy See of Etchmiadzin announced its intention to send two clergymen to the Sept. 19 ceremonies. His Holiness Catholicos Karekin II usually consults with Armenian officials before taking decisions on matters involving foreign countries. Since he was absent from Armenia while this announcement was made and possibly unaware of the objections raised, His Holiness now has the opportunity to make a final determination regarding the sending of representatives of the Holy See to Akhtamar. As Armenians in Turkey are not permitted to freely express their views, church officials and lay leaders outside Turkey should take the initiative to condemn the Turkish exploitation of Armenian religious ceremonies.
The Foreign Ministry of Armenia announced that it has not received an official invitation from Ankara to send a delegation to the Holy Cross Church. It is hoped that if and when such an invitation is extended, the Armenian government would reject it. Yerevan handed the Turks a propaganda victory last year by signing the Armenia-Turkey protocols. Participating in the Akhtamar church services would be tantamount to presenting the Turks an undeserved additional reward.
There are indications, however, that this time around the Armenian government may not be as accommodating. Eduard Sharmazanov, spokesman of President Serge Sarkisian’s ruling Republican Party and Member of Parliament, harshly criticized the planned church services, calling it a “publicity stunt” and a “provocation” to mislead the international community.
In addition, a subcommittee of the Public Council, an advisory body formed by Sarkisian, issued a statement urging Armenians to boycott the Holy Cross church services. It called on all self-respecting Armenians to refrain from participating in “this cheap Turkish show.” Giro Manoyan, spokesman of the opposition Armenian Revolutionary Federation in Yerevan, also advocated boycotting the church services and criticized the Holy See of Etchmiadzin for planning to send two clerics to Akhtamar.
A clear indication of Turkish disinterest in preserving Armenian churches is the interrogation by the secret police of several thousand families who have offered to host Armenian visitors in the nearby city of Van on Sept. 19, due to a shortage of hotel rooms. Turkish officials are suspicious that host families may be forcefully Turkified or Kurdified remnants of Armenian Genocide victims. By this appalling action, reminiscent of Nazi Germany’s Gestapo tactics, the Turkish regime is showing its obsession to keep track of its citizens’ ethnic origin. In fact, after this racist investigation, a number of families have been officially banned from hosting Diaspora Armenians in Van.
Armenians who naively plan to attend religious ceremonies in “a museum” would inadvertently legitimize the confiscation of a historic Armenian Church and promote a political show staged by Turkish authorities.
It is perfectly understandable that Turkish leaders would want to create a positive image in order to facilitate their country’s entry into the European Union, and counter Armenian efforts for the international recognition of the Armenian Genocide. It is far less understandable, however, why Armenians would help advance the Turks’ anti-Armenian objectives.




Exactly Boyajian jan.. exactly….
It is not too hard to understand that right? So then why do we have Ragnars, Murats, Ulgurs, Ahmets, Roberts and yes Karekins of this world that are having such a hard time understanding such a simple concept/state of mind? I don’t understand it…
Ragnar.. you can be honest .. trust me.. we won’t bite you..trust me.. at least be honest no matter how hurtful or arrogant it may sound.. but at least you will give us some sort of peace and quite from all this chaos that we have been dealing with you for this long…
hye, I read in GROONG that Germany’s President Christian Wulff,visiting
Turkey spoke out before the Turks, too, saying they had to be worthy of
belonging to the EU… Manooshag
Boyajian
my last post was directed at Gina, not at you. Your number 1: I am not sure. When I participated in the Umich.edu-listserve some people - also Armenians – told me in direct personal communication that the issue of not betraying one’s own stopped many from following a dialogue and express partial agreement with me. The safest for Armenians in roder not to appear “soft on deniers” or even “traitors” seemed to be to stick to the accepted formulas. However, I noted some progress. One of the persons who first harassed me coninually – I was shocked by the passivity of the moderators in this respect – eventually came with a list of 10 arguments for genocidal intent. Very good!! 2. I experience that some of you Armenians have two paralell discussions with me, both asserting things about historical facts and at the same time a kind if diagnostic practice dealing with interpreting me as supporting the “Turkish side”, as being malignant, crazy etc. The received idea of a dialogue oriented discusssion is that one primarily adresses the views of the Other. To diagnose the other regarding intent etc is bad practice in a discussion. It can be done but has to be done in a freindly manner. And too many Armenians on this site do this in a bad way, to my mind. Actually some of the people holding the Turkish viewpoint also do it. And the ordinary Turk does it all the time(when I explained about Taner Akcam to a Turkish friend I regarded as sensible from many years of acquaintances, he looked at me and said: “Are you sure he is not Armenian?”. This was his way of dealing with trhe arguments of Akcam). No, you have in the main behaved very well. Yes, of course I take responsibility for difficiltiers in our debate, but I believe I continued to try to answer calmly and to the point for a very long time in the face of remarks that I felt were insulting and denigrating. But then we had to show our dialogue to outsiders who are experts on communication and who are more outsiders than me, to judge about this. Should we do this? 4. I dont remember that I challenged you on this. If you provide the text, I can look into it. 5. No, you should not if you feel it like that. But I believe evwen non-spoesialists like me or you have a sense of logic. We have a capacity for dialogue as humans and I believe one should follow arguments and that a sustained effort at this has value. The diagnostics stops dialogue – I was hoping for a dialoge with jda on the ”analytical and factual level”, but he backed down, apparently. We might both have learned something from it, I believe. But I do not care to go on discussing with people who have continually to bolster themselves with invectives against me. Of course it has shown me the pain and the open wounds Armenians still have. I also believe that Armenians who simply give up and stop fighting for recognition and reparation betray something important in themselves. I have respect for those who go on fighting even if they do it in ways I somtimes find repulsive. The Armneian wounds are important for me to understand if I am to go on working in this ares. But regarding woulds quite another debate is also necessary. Dr. Kaligian and Chiara Meghigian Zenati conduct therapeutic sessions for Armenians ande Turks where the participants work with their feelings. Of course this is both important for them and valuable in itself. But my interest lies in the scientific treatment of the actual question, even if I learned aomething about my weaknesses in empathy in this discussion: the tendency to answer with “cold” arguments in situations where I should have sensed that I should have been more supportive and emphatic. - About leaving the discussion: when you ask in this way, I am of course more interested in pursuing the dialogue
To the naive and young Armenians posting on this blog;
This blog is not the weeping wall to show your feelings to Turkish stooges. If you need psycho analysis about your feelings, go see a shrink in private and send the bill to the Turkish government as an advance for the retribution, reparations and return of properties that must be made.
Ragnar,
With your limited to infinitesimal knowledge, training and skills, it is pointless for you to try to educate Armenians about the supposed shortcomings in their arguments. Apparently you have decided to get in on the action not by mastering the materials, and frankly,at your age you lack the time to master them, but instead by offering your messy comments about comments of other lay people.
I suggest you pester a more obvious target: the Turkish denalist state and its grey lap dogs. Their propaganda is everywhere. Go for it. start with ataa, atc, etc.
You know that the least sophisticated college student majoring in armenian studies at the world’s most backwards school can eviscerate your “juridical” arguments, so why not use your gifts where they can pay off.
On a different note,
No Armenian should purchase any food products made in Turkey. First of all, they are loaded with pesticides, chemicals and other disgusting preservatives. However, the most important reason for not purchasing such products is because we don’t know if they were produced on confiscated Armenian farms, orchards and the like. Don’t be a willing participant of the finalization of the Armenian Genocide. Besides, it always better to eat fresh and organic foods to invite curious people to enjoy with you and break bread with and form bonds with.
Ragnar, you have given me much to think about!
boyajian
I will answer your five points in the course of the Sunday hopefully. I want to have time to reflect and answer you properly.
boyajian
sorry, I made an answer and thought it did not come through. But now I see it is here.
jda
I am sorry for your hatefulness against somebody who should not be the target of your frustrations. I dont know how to answer you, but I would like to say something about my dialogues with Turks. First, I posted a long comment here in AW with questions to mr. Kirlikovali. He never answered. I also sent several posts to “Daily Zaman” and “Daily Hurriyet” and also to “Turkish forum”. There is now an intersting article in the English speaking Turkish press on the fate of the Protocols, and one Turkish author criticises the Armenian Supreme Court for saying that it is not open to debate whether there was a genocide or not. In this way the Armenians precluded debate the author says. I will answer saying that if the Turkish side really wanted dialogue they would have found a way to go into the dialogue. The Supreme Court in Armenia simply states their view, as Turks have stated theirs. This does not preclude dialogue. I will suggest that the Turkish government is not sincere when it insists that it wanted dialogue, but that the Armenian side backed down
Ragnar,
I have resorted to ridicule of things you post which are – ridiculous. Don’t conflate ridicule and satire with hatefulness.
You harbor naive illusions that Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, Pontic and humanity’s demands for justice can be tweaked with your leadership to produce a “dialogue” with Nationalist Turks resulting in something or other. Our differences with Turks are not a matter of dialogue. Both sides know the truth. We understand them and their needs. Our differences concern atoning for evil and making reparations. Its a matter of will, not scholarship.
So far as educating you goes, you don’t even know who your Turkish audience is, or what their political agenda is. I and the other people here do. The Turkish agenda is to destroy every Armenian person, place and memory until there are so few Armenians, and so much Turkish wealth and power that the few who know what 1915-1923 means won’t care. As part of that process we have blunderers like you roaming the earth trying to bring two sides together. We also have writers like de Bellaigue trying to make Genocide into something softer and gentler. This is all appeasement.
I object to an amateur who adds nothing and can’t even figure out why his remarks are irrelevant and wrong.
Dear Ragnar,
Worlds’ press freedom ranked Turkey into 138 place among 178 countries…it is obvious, why most Armenians like jda are frustrated….Turkey is not a free country, it is obvious controlled by Islamists leftists, kemalists and Ergenokons, where all of these elements functioning within Turkish constitutional jurisdiction system with the help of fanatic code 301..I wonder sometimes, what is your real intention in this forum, that constantly asking us to be nice with Turks..are you trying to tell us, that we all are illiterate unimportant tribes compare with superior Turkish race??
I don’t think Kirlikovali answers others comments, he simply snipes. He is not interested in dialogue, but attack.
Why are we still bothering with this player?
What I would give to have Ragnar and his likes stand in front of our grandparents and tell them to their face that the CUP’s “genocidal intent” was questionable!!! This whole dialogue is a blasphemy to our ancestors’ memory! Our grandparents had a crystal clear understanding that the Turks came after them to kill them all by the order of their government. Not only that, all the neighboring countries back then knew without a doubt that the Armenians were annihilated in Anatolia. They are the ones who received the surviving orphans from whom the Armenian Diaspora was born.
On top of that, we are indulging Ragnar’s puzzling arrogant airs of superiority! He keeps on criticizing us over nonsense with his condescending tone, when he has no personal accolades to be honored for! He has rendered our Genocide into a game of “arguing for the sake of arguing”, and has produced absolutely NO evidence and NILL documents that support his ridiculous hypothesis! Why are we still communicating with him?
In addition, we are giving him the opportunity to stir up more nonsensical garbage by injecting comments referring to some unknown Armenians who have supposedly secretly agreed with his ridiculous hypothesis! Who are these Armenians and what did they agree on are all shrouded in enigmatic mystery! Is that what he is trying to achieve with us too by pushing this completely nonfactual hypothesis on us? I wonder what he is gaining from this cynical dialogue, besides inflating his grandiose ego! I know we are not gaining anything from it but getting continuously offended!
To make things more confusing he claims to be fighting for our cause! If he is fighting for our cause then what is he arguing with us about? Our cause is very clear: the Turkish authorities massacred our ancestors in WWI and took all their assets/lands/possessions from them, and the present day Turkey needs to acknowledge this crime and make reparations for it. This is our cause.
Of course he is not going to answer me again, so that he does not divert attention away from himself…
Drop this ridiculous discussion guys, drop it! Listen to me… we are wasting our energy… His is not an honorable endeavor!
Dialogue is for the naive.
Ragnar, thanks for taking so much time to respond. I have a few thoughts. First, I want to respond to this statement of yours about Armenians:
I have respect for those who go on fighting even if they do it in ways I somtimes find repulsive.
You have made numerous comments in this vein and I have always cringed at the thought that the righteous indignation of Armenians against what the Turks did to Armenians should be viewed as repulsive. It seems that the world has been turned upside down. The murdered nation has to ‘apologize’ for its resolve that the murdering nation must pay. It is simply bizarre that we should have to coax the rest of civilized society to join us in this resolve. I understand that you hear emotionally charged comments that accuse Turks of unflattering characteristics as bigoted, and this offends you. (I won’t say ‘racist comments’ because after all the co-mingling of ethnic groups in Asia Minor, the differentiation along racial lines has been blurred. Who is a Turk? Even the offspring of a forced marriage or rape is still biologically my cousin. A hard truth to accept!)
I still believe, that you came to this discussion with Armenians with too much opinion and not enough knowledge about the Armenian struggle. And (I will give you the benefit of the doubt, here) that is why you failed to understand the ‘heat’ in the words of many Armenians and found yourself casting judgment on what you saw as crass Anti-Turkishness. I don’t deny that our frustration has led to anger which leads to highly charged words, but I am glad that on some level you find yourself feeling respect for the resolve shown by Armenians.
So I have to ask, do you know how repulsive it is to an Armenian to hear anyone diluting the tragedy that our nation endured by casting doubts and aligning with denialist propaganda that only entered the dialogue after intensified efforts by Armenians for genocide recognition?
Secondly, yes, we at times appear hyper-loyal to the ‘Armenian’ side of the story, but that is not just an ethnic loyalty. To us it is a loyalty to what we know as truth. We have seen the truth be denied, manipulated and turned on its head by those who are the perpetrators of a crime they do not want to face. We have seen the world turn a blind eye and cold heart to the thought of letting our genocide go unpunished, simply because it is politically advantageous. GENOCIDAL TRUTH becomes alleged claims, becomes ancient ethnic struggle, becomes civil war, becomes unfortunate tragedy. There is an instinctive Armenian rejection of anything that smacks of a ‘Turkish twist’ on the genocide.
I don’t want to be redundant, but either you have willingly aligned yourself with those who want to avoid justice or you naively espouse, because of lack of a full understanding of the history, some thoughts of the phony history designed to obfuscate the truth produced by the Turkish side. Either way, you have ruffled more than a few feathers and have had to face the Armenian, highly sensitized, knee-jerk response to your ‘provocations’.
For me there is a bottom line. First the crime must be acknowledged and compensated for. The academic dissection of cause and effect of the events must be secondary to the human and societal need for a just world. I have little patience for those who would deny justice. So I don’t mean to be rude, but could you please check your motives and your ego one more time and get out of the way unless you are here to help say no to tolerance of genocide.
Boyajian
I will comment on your bottom line
you write:
First the crime must be acknowledged and compensated for.
comment:
I am not sure about what you mean by “first” here. I am here to learn and to listen to arguments. I agree about the crime. The task is to try to convince the honest, but sceptical Turks. Why “first”? If I should do something first, I did. From the very beginning I said that a colossal crime weas committed against Armenians.
you write:
The academic dissection of cause and effect of the events must be secondary to the human and societal need for a just world.
comment:
Again I dont know what is your point. We get towards a just world by certain methods. If we cannot go to war we have to argue, make propaganda, raise the issue. Do it in the best way. Discuss strategy. For me it has been important to listen to you and also suggest a strategy. the discussion of cause and effect has had less importance for me.
you write:
I have little patience for those who would deny justice. So I don’t mean to be rude, but could you please check your motives and your ego one more time and get out of the way unless you are here to help say no to tolerance of genocide.
comment:
you are not rude, but I am surprised at your concern with my motives. I outlined to jda what I will say to the Turks – regarding one article. This is one example.There will be many more. Of course I say no to the tolerance of genocide. I am also not only “here”. I am on turkish sites to confront them. My motivation is to work for human rights in Turkey, and by now I also feel the solidarity with Armenians. I plan to be in Ankara on april 24 next year, together with Turks and others who confront the standard turkish denialism. This is my motivation. But again – it doesnt mean that I agree with you in everything, and for me our debate has been important. But I still feel that you still have a problem in relating positively to somebody who cares about the Armenian cause, agrees in most, but not in all. No, I feel secure in my motivation. Again I wish you luck and maybe we will discuss again some time, maybe not.
Dear Boyajian,
Your last post was so touching and honest…it is a priviledge to have someone as eloquent as you posting on this site. You are an amazing communicator and advocate of our cause. However, it hurts me to say that the person you are addressing is not only not from your caliber as a communicator, but he has also proven to be a terrible listener. There is something wrong in someone pushing the agenda of a perpetrator nation by endorsing dishonest legal maneuverings purposefully concocted to avoid accountability. He not only does not check himself in the mirror to see if he is being influenced by erroneous and biased material, he also has the audacity to insist that he somehow knows more about the circumstances and details of this crime than us, the descendants of the survivors. He does not see how absurd this comes across for us. Our grandparents had lived for years under the tyranny of the Ottoman Empire. The majority were not affiliated with any Armenian political party whatsoever to be in any way influenced by the politics of the time. They were regular people who were isolated, deported and killed by the Turks in an elaborately organized way that involved the kaimakams, governors, Ittihadist party secretaries, chettehs, gendarmes and the Turkish army, just for being Armenian.
It seems that Ragnar wants the Turkish state to make reparations for the misfortunes of the Armenians at a proportionately minimal level compared to the level where it would have to if it accepts the Genocide its predecessor committed.
He has made our Genocide into an accademic passtime that completely disregards the untainted first person eyewitness testimonies of the time.
Ambassador Morgenteau said it very clearly that he was witnessing an organized campaign of race extermination.
I am more interested in finding out when and how is Armenia going to make official claims against Turkey. I am looking forward for the report that will come out from the recent UCLA convention about the aftermath and reperations for the Genocide.
Excellent JDA, Katia jan ….
Boyajian jan.. you are the patience of an angel and I thank you for it…
Ragnar- no matter how you twist the matters, i don’t agree with your stance, and the way you try to make yourself sound and feel righteous.. I don’t believe you..
and as I said before.. you will remain a Genocide deniar to me.. i am sorry….. because ??????????????????????????????? i said this to you many times.. there is only two sides to this matter.. either yes there was a Genocide or no there was not … andddddddddddddddddd to me, there is no only ONE way to YES.. Yes is a yes..there is no ifs, buts, maybes, could bes, ect….but there are MANY levels to NO… and your belief and plan and science about the Genocide is definintely one level of no.. hence, denial…
Thank you
Gayane
Ragnar, the ‘first’ I am referring to is first Turkey must admit or be made to admit to the Genocide. It is not a first I ask of you alone, but of the world. Yes you acknowledge the genocide but you play with details which I consider distractions from the essential and primary truth. I feel bogged down in this conversation with you; it seems we (you, me and others) spend too much time defending our comments and not nearly enough time on an expanded dialogue on how to move the Armenian Cause forward. I don’t want to spend time arguing with anyone about what I have learned to be true from survivors, from historians and from my own parents; or to spend so much time in dissecting each others comments. I never claimed that Turks were all devils or that Armenians are all saints, but the truth of the genocide is undeniable and justice has yet to be done. That is the ‘first’ I am talking about.
Secondly, you and I disagree on the notion that there is something to argue about with respect to the truth of the genocide. It is a tragic absurdity that the world colludes in Turkey’s amnesia for these events and that Armenians are being told to enter into historical re-examinations of long ago established conclusions.
Thirdly, I have a problem relating to you because you come across as a confusing and contradictory person who seems to change colors like a chameleon. I am not sure what to make of this. One moment suggesting Armenians are as likely to be murderers of a nation, the next claiming empathy for the Armenian cause.
Katia, I thank you and Gayane for your encouraging words. I feel the same about you and have the utmost respect for your intellect and your integrity on these pages.
Boyajian,
Admire your angelic patience in continuing to debate with the chorus of ragnars. There’s a proverb I’ve heard when in Russia. It translates roughly: “Lord, deliver me from friends. As for enemies, I’ll get rid of them by myself.” No comments…
Cheers,
M
Understood, Msheci…
I feel as if I have walked into an ‘intervention’ with a circle of trusted friends who are gently trying to lead me away from something that is not good for me. Thanks. My eyes are wide open and I have a long memory!
boyajian
I also believe that we should stop this dialogue. However, the details you believe are not essential, I believe to be important. So let us agree to disagree.
Apart from this, we all should go on scrutinizing our motives. This of course also applies to me. I thank you for your patience and again wish you luck
Thank you Boyajian, for everything.
Truth is my sister, that noone, not even the most staunch Aremenian sympatizer, will ever feel what we feel inside as Armenians, because WE are the only ones who lived and are still living through this Genocide experience.
But for humanity’s sake, I know truth shall prevail…it will prevail.
Bless you and may God bless our rightous cause.
I concur to what Katia jan said.. Boyajian you are an absolutely great writer and commentator (yes indeed..:)) … (that goes to Katia, Msheci, JDA, MJM, Grish, and our other friends)…
Thank you for keeping the fire burning and fighting forward even when we face road blocks like Ragnars, Murats, Karekins, Roberts, Ahmets of the world… your determination and passion gives me hope and courage to fight on as well…
I just hope that Ragnar truly took something valuable from all the time and effort you all have put into this.. (this is the second or third longest discussion forums that Ragnar ingnited the fire and then put it out because he got defeated.. or as he put it.. he decided to agree to disagree and left….)
i look forward to your future comments my dear friends.. you are definintely the pride of Armenia and Armenians…
God Bless you all…
Gayane
Ragnar, I agree to disagree. I thank you for any work you are doing or may do in the future that will benefit a resolution of the Armenian Cause. I hope all your doubts and questions will be cleared up. I’m sure I will come across your writing again in the future. May the truth be known by all and may justice come.
To all readers:
I have endured Ragnar’s efforts to groom our comments and ingratiate himself. I have read with skepticism his remarks about how he has sympathy for the Armenians cause, and believes that it was Genocide except for maybe the courtroom sense.
All of these are mirepresentations. Ragnar serves the Turk Nazi cause.
Please watch the following clip from his recent bravura performance at the UUtah, where he served up some nonsense that truth ot the Armenian Genocide was debatable. Just a matter of perspective. Laughable too is his claim that he is a philosopher. All Ragnar is, is a friend of the enemy:
http://stream.utah.edu/m/dp/frame.php?f=382c03226a9a4a52188
jda, I have watched the video over and over again, searching every word and facial expression for a deeper understanding of what moves this man. I may be wrong, but I believe this is the work of a person who is misled by his previous infatuation with Turkey, who can’t bring himself to condemn those who served him coffee and lokhum, who misjudges the players. He makes faulty conclusions based on limited and biased research. His credentials to enter the dialogue may be questionable but I believe he is a man who in his senior years hopes to do something of significance and offer his perspective based on his own life experiences. (Oh, the pitfalls of unexamined pride!) His greatest faults: misplaced loyalty and lack of humility to realize that his work hurts real people and betrays justice. Or maybe its in the hookah he’s smoking… JK
JDA…. Thank you for sharing the clip..
I watched and as I was watching i was wondering as to how one man can sit there and pretend to understand and know history on the limited and biased knowledge that he possesses…. I was listening to him and after a while after his mumbo jumbo, i could not stand it anymore… but i made myself to finish watching him…he seems very odd and enigma just like his writings…
As I said… he does have an agenda and this clip truly exposed as to what he is searching on these pages…
He had smoked the Turkish marijuanna for sure….
There are a few actual scholars who are studying patterns of Turkish state denialism over time. I suppose it is an interesting field of study, but it does not illuminate what happened in 1915 except to this extent: many of the arguments the enemy uses today have been in use since the 1890′s, and were used as a justification to deport, starve and kill.
Contrary to her claims that Turkey has been asleep at the switch public relations-wise, these studies of rhetoric actually show that Turkey has been lying and suppressing speech for over a century.
Its part of Genocide: blame third party nations for interfering with your internal affairs when they complain about murder, accuse the victims of collaborating with these foreign powers to save their lives, and enlist people in these nations to cover for you.
Ragnar does not even qualify as an expert in classical argument, or modern mass media. By pointing out the obvious, namely that Turk Nazis deny Genocide, he adds nothing but soothes the Turks by treating the denialist point of view as being just another valid viewpoint.
In protesting the Lowry affair, Robert Jay Lifton and other real scholars pointed out the immoral conduct of the state and the scholars who front for Genocide denial. Ragnar is just another flavor in this immoral effort by which the Turks try to make Genocide nothing more than an allegation, and the truth something which is debatable.
Jda, denial can be a slippery and insidious game, that when unchecked, leaves the uninformed or ill-informed scratching their heads in confusion over where the truth lies, thus delaying or thwarting justice. You are right to draw firm lines of distinction and to point out the immoral instruments of denial utilized by people who ‘simply raise questions.’
Absolutely correct JDA… Thank you very much for clarifying the matter as I know we Turks here who are very slow in swallowing or understanding .. hopefully this will provide great insight to Ragnar so that next time when he opens his mouth, he thinks about as to what he is doing and what can happen if he continues such acts…
Thank you again for always being the voice of strength… Boyajian that goes for you to my dear..:)
You are definintely my heros…
Gayane
Why do you people waste your valuable time and resources to have a so-called “dialogue” with Turkish stooges? Why does this blog shun or censor those who point out the obvious? The only dialogue that should be discussed is in how to put the onerous on Turks to show property records and how they were acquired. The burden should be on the Turkish government to show that it rightfully is in possession of Armenian lands, and if not, end its occupation of Western Armenia and Cyprus.
I waste my and your valuable time because I think Ragnar’s racket is insidious. It creeps into the edges of academia despite his lack of credentials, research or insight.
And from there the enemy seeks to use it to mislead, say the American Congress, from whom help is always needed.
The enemy uses every tool from murder [Hrant Dink] to suppressing speech in this Country [Musa Dagh movies in 1933 and 2009] to corrupting American universities [Princeton, UU] to having lobbyists work more for Turkey than any other foreign power except Israel, by endowing research that supports Denial and by corrupting Congress [read Sibel Edmonds' testimony of 8/11/09 or her website] and using expensive litigation, such as that brought unsuccessfully against the Commonwealth of Massachusetts [Griswold case]. Their patience and funds are unlimited. Their treachery and instincts are unchanged.
The enemy will try to destroy any Turkish voice that speaks truthfully [harassment and worse against Taner Akcam]. It will try to disrupt meetings where truth is spoken, just as Nazi Brown Shirts did [Margaret Ahnert in New York in 2008].
It is too late for us to form ranks and use weapons to defeat the enemy of 1915. It is never too late to meet the enemy’s words and stooges, even if nobody but us is the audience.
I do it because my grandmother’s relatives were shot down and burned in front of her. I do it every chance I get.
I stand by you JDA… absolutely … and thank you for doing that.. weapons are not an option for a civilized world (i am sure this does not refer to Turkey as they will not blink on that opportunity) but words are always an option which Turkey is not good at either.. so what is Turkey good at? oh yeah.. denial, lies, corruption, buying out cheap politians, spending millions of dollars to keep anyone from talking the truth, brainwashing her school children, and citizens, blaming others for their acts, playing both sides, making up stupid laws just to cover and protect their sorry you know what.. wow.. such a great resume.. i am sure it looks great on paper but Turkish govt and those who support her is as imcompetent and ignorant as ever…soo sad…
Apres JDA jan.. shat apres… yes qezanov hiyatsats em…
jda, I burst in tears… God Bless you, brother (or sister)…
jda, your thoughts shared are the reason we continue. It’s not just for the future and our children. It’s for the voices silenced by murder or the grandparents who instilled in us this legacy of carrying the torch of justice. You are correct. There is something we can all do every day and it will continue to make collectively and individually stronger. The Turks do not understand this and this is our advantage. It is why Armenia prevailed in the Vartanantz epic. It is why Sardarabad saved Armenia from extinction. It is why Karabagh prevailed. It is why we must continue and will prevail. Thank you.