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Mouradian: Turkish Officials to Attend Genocide Commemorations?

When it comes to making grand statements, leave it to the Turkish government.

According to a report by the newspaper Sabah, Ankara announced this week that it will be taking part in April 24th commemorations this year in an effort to overcome psychological barriers between Armenia and Turkey, and engage in dialogue with the Armenian Diaspora.

If you are asking why a government that spends millions of dollars and goes out on a limb in denying the Armenian Genocide would take part in events commemorating it, look at the calendar.

It’s that time of the year again.

As April 24th  approaches, Ankara is anxious to guarantee that President Obama, in his annual “Armenian Remembrance Day” statement, will not refer to the destruction of the Armenians in Ottoman Turkey in 1915 as “genocide.”

Washington, in turn, would like to present excuses that justify Obama’s decision to break his campaign promise to properly recognize the genocide.

During the past two years, Obama justified his decision by referring to “the efforts by Turkey and Armenia to normalize their bilateral relations.” Now that the Turkey-Armenia “normalization” process has been stalled—by the Turkish Grand National Assembly’s failure to ratify the Turkish-Armenian protocols—Washington needs a fresh excuse.

And Ankara feels the pressure to provide one.

Hence the Turkish government’s announcement, which promises to take up a line or two in the “I salute,” “I commend,” and “I support” section of Obama’s Remembrance Day statement.

On the other hand, the Turkish government will not have sacrificed much. An official’s visit to the Armenian Genocide Memorial in Yerevan, for example, does not mean the visitor’s country acknowledges the Armenian Genocide. The U.S. ambassador to Armenia and even U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton herself have visited the site, although the U.S. maintains a policy of not reaffirming the genocide.

I doubt, however, that the Turkish government will send officials to lay wreaths at Armenian Genocide memorials. The ruling Justice and Development (AK) Party is locked in a struggle for votes, and the pressure from its rank and file and competing parties might force it to abandon the plan.

Instead of insulting the memory of genocide survivors and selling it to the world as progress, the Turkish government can perhaps begin with removing genocide denial material from its websites. The Turkish Foreign Ministry’s page, for example, features a “Q&A” section denying the genocide and stressing that “Turkey is the only country, where the events of 1915 can be discussed in a free manner.” (I kid you not.)

Ankara’s annual “let’s pretend to be busy doing something constructive” festival is in full swing already. Stay tuned!

326 Comments on Mouradian: Turkish Officials to Attend Genocide Commemorations?

  1. avatar David Boyajian // February 8, 2011 at 6:17 pm // Reply

    Yes, it is a divide and conquer strategy by the Turks and will probably quickly be forgotten, if indeed it is ever carried out.  

    Recall that FM Davutoglu said sometime back that he wanted to talk to Armenian Americans.  This is part of that – ie. the making of grandiose, crude, pointless, ostensibly friendly statements, something the Turks are good at, all the while making idiots of themselves.  I wonder if they know that.

    Can we get back to the real issues now, reparations and territory? 

  2. why are we asking anything from a country that has such a low i.q.

  3. .. Escaping from this is impossible PM of turkey has to get on his knees
    to beg forgiveness from all of the Armenians and the World;
    ””””Anything less than this should be considered Joke of the Century’’’’”
    just as Chancellor Willi Brandt did in 1970 got down on to his knees
    to lay a wreath in honor the victims of Nazi holocaust.

  4. avatar Grish Begian // February 8, 2011 at 6:56 pm // Reply

    Dear Khachig,

    Every calendar year start from January, Turkish political media increase their activities in Middle East….they hope that US Government will listen to Turkey’s “good will” intention toward peaceful resolutions. Turks do not understand, their double standard position regards’ their “goodwill” resolutions in the West, where is well known to political circles.
    Turks have to forget, if they have influence in Middle East, Europe, or any where in this world.
    The destruction, that “sick man of Europe” have created specially in M.E. and Europe is not forgotten yet, Israel can not trust Turkey’s double standard policy as a Muslim friend in Middle East.
    Turkey can not be a Jews or Christians friend or work for a peaceful resolutions with them. Turkey historically never support a Jewish State in Middle East, but Palestinians.
    All these Turkish “good will” intention is based on “Armenian Genocide Recognition” by US and Western World, when the time is ticking toward April 24, each year, political activities of Turkey sky rocketing, they love to bury their ancestral committed Genocide toward Armenians, and other Christian population of Ottoman Turkey, but how much longer??

  5. How can they say they are going to attend?
    WHO invited them?
    It’s like going to a funeral without an invitation…

  6. Another Turkish farce…

  7. avatar Barkev Asadourian // February 8, 2011 at 8:44 pm // Reply

    No doubt..they are(turks)attending just for cover
    genocide crime of 1.500.001 Armenians…

  8. avatar Dikranagerdtsi // February 8, 2011 at 10:01 pm // Reply

    Excellent Editorial Baron Mouradian. Vartzget Gadar.


    When the Turkish government begins thinking and talking about the return of our assets and the accrued interest over a span of 90 plus years in DOLLARS, CENTS and KILOMETERS OF LAND then I’ll begin to take them more seriously.
     
    Until then, this most recent stunt is just another dog and pony show orchestrated by the same circus of clowns keen on insulting our martyrs and whitewashing history.
     
    When is the Turkish government going to help ordinary Turks overcome their institutionalized ‘psychological barriers’ to free speech by rescinding Article 301?

  9. Is it possible to express the Turkish opinions in a panel in Armenia? The answer is NO. Can armenians express their feelings in Turkey? YES.

  10. I see that all Armenians always have these beliefs:
    1- Turks are evil. Whatever they do is evil. Even if they do something looks like have a good intention, it must be a cover for something evil.
    2- Americans, Europeans are good. They are actually on the side of Armenians but they are always deceived by evil Turks. Even if they are friends with Turks, we shouldn’t criticize them.
     
    These are wrong. The truth is Turkish nationalists are evil. Most Turks are deceived by them. Some powers in the West are intentionally, directly and openly supporting and collaborating with Turkish nationalists.

  11. When is the Turkish government going to help ordinary Turks overcome their institutionalized ‘psychological barriers’ to free speech by rescinding Article 301?

    Ahmet writes: Can armenians express their feelings in Turkey? YES.  BUT! It usually results in criminal prosecution, jail or death.  Lets’ not forget the efforts of Hrant Dink and his reward for expressing himself in Turkey. 

    Ahmet’s comment is called ‘talking out of both sides of the mouth.’

  12. If there is any substance to this story, it would be Turkey’s intention to attend the commemorations to preach its gospel of ’two nations, one catastrophe”, not in any way to give credence to the Genocide. Quite the contrary. It would be disruptive of the proceedings and probably force Armenians into ‘ungracious’ behavior, which would be a propaganda windfall for Ankara.

  13. Dear Ahmet, it seems like your one of those Turks who’s quite content with keeping Turkey’s institutionalized barriers to free speech in place.
     
    Not surprisingly, your understanding of “opinion” and fact is skewed.
     
    If by “Turkish opinions” you mean – vile revisionist hate mongering falsities denying a recognized crime against humanity – then to answer your dim witted question most civilized nations do frown upon and criminalize HATE SPEECH targeting a specific ethnic group.
    The Armenian Genocide, like the Holocaust and the Rwandan Genocide is a fact of history. Unsubstantiated “opinions” played off as facts by radicalized backwater zealots in some Turkish Mosques on Friday nights are not credible truths Ahmet. Neither is uncorroborated “opinions” espoused by charlatan scholars under the guise of ‘independent’ scholarship.
     
    You insolently ask “can Armenians express their feelings in turkey?” Let me answer that with a few questions you very well know the answer to: Is the Armenian Editor by the name of Hrant Dink still alive for expressing his ‘feelings’ in Turkey or was he gunned down by a Turkish extremist in cold blood? How many journalists, academics and Turkish citizens at large are harassed, imprisoned indefinitely, intimidated, threatened with murder, actually murdered or sued for expressing their “feelings” in Turkey? How many archaic laws restricting freedom of speech are still used against Turkish citizens with unpopular “feelings?” Why is Article 301 still being used to muzzle truth in Turkey?
     
    Stop playing dumb Ahmet. You know exactly what Armenians can and cannot say in Turkey. For crying out loud, you and your ilk are on here day in and day out trying to keep us from not ‘insulting Turkishness’ with our “feelings” and we all live in America! And here you are trying to convince us that you and your clan don’t do the same using more extreme behaviour in trying to censor the speech of our Armenian kinsmen living in Turkey??????? Ha…I am not buying that and neither is anyone else!

  14. Hallelujah! Peace in heaven and glory in highest heaven. – But the Turks remain Turks. Nothing changes. Denial persists. Mevlut Çavuşoğlu – infamous President of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe remains committed to Denial of Turkish sponsored Armenian Genocide. Unless he started to tell the truth. Does anyone remember what he said about Artsakh? “PACE will do its best for Nagorno-Karabakh peaceful settlement,” Mevlut Çavuşoğlu.
    Hallelujah! Peace in heaven and glory in highest heaven! Other liers of the same infamous institute “Erdogan, Gül & Tulip Co.” will do all they can to harm Armenians!
     
    Apart from peace in heaven and glory in highest heaven (- Halleluja), why do we not establish a special remembrance day where Afghan, Azeri & Turkish politicians are allowed to send their delegates to special Armenian Genocide Commemorations already on February 24? They need many, many rehearsals everyday until March 24. Then we will see what a single month of shallow promises and vows can effect. – One month is not enough to outweigh 100 years of lies. Two months of “Turkish remembrance activities” (there is no other term for public relation activities than that of activites). There is no regret. There is only Triumph in the eyes of the Turks. Their “participation” on April 24 will be THE TURKS TRIUMPH IN HAYASTAN!  Be aware! Do not fool yourself!
    If they meant it honestly would they tear down the monument for Armenian-Turkish friendship in Kars?
    Armenia needs the nuke!

  15. Dear David, I do recall that the Turkish government intended to reach out to the Armenian communities in the Diaspora. FM Davutoglu certainly talked to Armenian Americans. At least with the Armenian Assembly of America. – What was the outcome of the “vote” on the Armenian Genocide on December 22 and 23, 2010? Who praised Nancy Pelosi? The Armenian Assembly for sure and most probably the Turks. Sometimes they mean what the say, those Turks.

  16. Ahmet what kind of Turkish hookah are you smoking? It is not enough we have to deal with Robert’s idiotic comments, now it is you…

    Talk about complete ignorance or simple memory loss that in TUrkey NOTHING is expressed freely without a punishment.. You are  Turk..you know the laws in Turkey.. have you heard about Article 301 as Dikranagetsi mentioned above? Or is this a law that applies to Aliens living in Turkey.. I just don’t get it…and please do share the time you wanted to share your comments (i mean legitimate and intelligent comments only please) in Armenia and you were stopped? We can list number of Turkish and Non-Turkish individuals who tried to express their comments/feelings in Turkey and faced a horrible fate… would you like a list?

    G

  17. @Ahmet, Armenian editor of Agos, Hrant Dink peacefully and in alow-keyed manner spoke in Turkey for the Turkish people and the government to get over the barriers and accept that the Armenian Genocide did happen also for the psychological benefits for the country and for the people of Turkey, and look what the Turkish government did to Hrant Dink as they have him killed.  That’s what you call expressing their feelings freely in turkey?  Is that why article 301 says that you cannot talk about the Armenian Genocide?  Let’s go and ask Orhan Pamuk about being able to speak freely about the Armenian Genocide in Turkey and he’ll tell us otherwise.

    To Khatchig, I like your very insightful and justified article Khatchig.  It is that time of the year for Obama and the State Department to find another excuse by creating such stories that now AS IF Turkey wishes to send their officials to attend the Armenian Genocide Commemoration.  Another underhanded excuse to further say that Turkey wishes to reach out to the Armenians all around the world to make mends… another underhanded tactics of the US to further delay the United States’ acceptance of the Armenian Genocide.

    Dikranagerdtsi, EXACTLY for what you said above: “When the Turkish government begins thinking and talking about the return of our assets and the accrued interest over a span of 90 plus years in DOLLARS, CENTS and KILOMETERS OF LAND then I’ll begin to take them more seriously.”

    In short, let us continuously and unfailingly both Motherland Armenia and Diaspora pursue the Wilson Arbitration Awards’ submission to the heirs of the Armenian Martirs; THAT IS US, EVERY ARMENIAN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH!!!! 

  18. This is so untrue, Armenian news like to report and make false commnets ,There will be and never will be a represantation from Turkey will go to this event, I have no idea where you get your information but us IN USA Turkish-Americans 500.000 strong will never heard such a thinkg, and if it was in the plan we will protest it, and will do our best to make sure that will never take place,

    we do not support the lie

  19. avatar Grish Begian // February 9, 2011 at 5:20 am // Reply

    Ahmet,
    What do you mean “ARmenians express their feelings in Turkey” why do you write everything reverse??is this reversed mentality with Turkish intellectuals??..this is a puzzle!!
    You should know one Armenian express his feeling in his real hometown!!his name was Hrant Dink, them you know what happened.. not only to him, but also to his Turkish lawyer..
    They are toooo many Islamized Armenians living in Turkey, where they can not talk about their real roots even today, in their own occupied country..Hrant death proved to them that Turks are not ready yet…
    Dersim Armenians back to their roots


  20. ‘Medz Yeghern’*
    Shan’t Be Uttered by Others
    Hence ‘Genocide’ and Further Forth

    ____________________
    “Every Language has a soul
    Every language has its own roar
    Exhales inside its cavernous’ core
    Can you learn languages all!
    Each language vibrates a soul.”**

    Sylva-MD-Poetry
    ___________________________________
     
    President O.B. should not use a phrase he can’t understand,
    He is a poet, judge, lawyer, he must be criticized.
     
    Medz Yeghern for us are two horrible words
    Not every one can realize
    Something more than calamity…
    Massacres…Tragedy…Disaster… or even Genocide
    Which sounds still little!
    ‘A Killing Plague’
     
    Deep painfulness can create endless anguish phrases lexicons
    Not felt with everyone yet to be invented…
    Affected and still affecting
    Lives of our cohorts
    Like the end of the world

    Hence…Translation has no meaning at all
    Maybe for others, Thus never for us.
    The word ‘calamity’ seems an ant
    facing a starving tiger…lion
    A phrase can’t heed torments.

     
    Can any human being translate
    What’s in their deep, scorned-mind
    How much they love their mothers
    And their lost motherland!
     
    So please Dr. President
    Calm your bemused sense
    Don’t behave tenaciously
    Don’t sell your philosophy
    On the graves of seared lives
    Don’t please your and our enemies
    Don’t pretend to be deaf to what’ is really bleeding
    Under the rain and on the streets sunken in mud.
    To run your shiny-wheeled political cart…!

    Don’t enunciate a phrase.
    You did with your tongue
    But can never pronounce through your chest
    As you never walked with hungry bare injured soles,
     
    Did the criminal gendarmes’ assaults,
    They enjoyed smashing human vital organs,
    Drive you to an unknown destiny
    Near red-rivers filled with bones,
    To see smashed innocent faces from your blood with
    Crushed lacrimating eyes outside prayers’ skulls.
     
    Tell me, “How can you feel the pain
    Of something you never have faced or felt!”
    How can you utter
    That horrible phrase!
     
    Please OB understand that, ‘We Love You’—
    ge sirenk kez’—©— ‘kez ge sirenk’
    We are not here to insult someone
    Who made us promises and said that was ‘a real genocide’;
    Don’t act like a lover who changed his promise
    Because of another who betrays and fires fears.
     
    Your promise stagnated in our hearts.
    We heartlessly weep…
    We can only say,
     
    “Also You…The Son of
    Darling-Sweet-Senseful
    Stanley-Ann,
    Betrayed Us and Why!”
     
    Each time we hear Medz Yeghern
    We can witness a pointed, poisoned Turkish scimitars
    Entering our already injured heart-valves.
    Tearing our creed.

    Regretful that we possess
    So naïve a soulful-faith!
    Not every race could sincerely grace…!
     
    June 19, 2010
    __________________________________________________________

    * Medz Yeghern: Armenian phrase used by President Barak Obama on the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day on April 24, 2010 instead of using the word Genocide he used word ‘calamity’ just after four months from inauguration day on April 24, 2009, But he had clearly said the word Genocide before inauguration!

    Obama meant to please the second generation of the new-Ottomans
    in spite of 44 out of 50 American States recognizing
    the Armenian genocide.

  21.    This important article should serve as reminder of what we are dealing with…. the continuing duplicity of the Turkish government. Indredible as it may seen, we are dealing with a heartless fox… there is no shame for those caught in the endless loop of denial. How ironic that the Turkish government will package this an onther sign of their benevolent outreach towards their “neighbors”; while insulting every Armenian.
          The challenge for us will be to counter this facade with our own meassge to neutralize their intent and at the same time prevent the Armenains from being viewed
    as obstructing “progress”. Above all we must be mindful of their attempts to spilt the diaspora and distnace it from Armenia
                I believe that Khatchig’s intent is to prepare us for a new phase of the denial campaign. The neo-Ottomans not only wear suits, but now smile and wish to reach out to the very entity, our diaspora, created by the crime….except there are no olive branches…. only thorns in disguise. I see the Turks have been reading the history of Asia Minor…particularly that of the Trojan horse.

  22. since we are dealing with a country like turkey that is based on deceipt and lies on a continuous basis, can we learn anything from the jews and how they handled their problem, realizing that they have many connections in high places. we need them on our side, some are, some are not. i know it is easier said than done but it is a thought.
    sincerely
    gerard

  23. Just add this as another inane of continuation of a Turkey’s PLOYs… their ongoing, unending distractions and lies – as world watches and wonders: WHAT NEXT TURKEYS? Manooshag

  24. avatar Shantagizoum // February 9, 2011 at 12:04 pm // Reply

    OF COURSE  MURADIANS ARTICLE IS GOOD AND TO THE POINT AND ALL COMMENTS TOO.
    BUT GOD HAS GIVEN ME A VERY SHARP MEMORY.YEARS AGO SOME FEW TURKISH INTELLECTUALS DID ACTUALLY GO TO TZITZERNAGABERT  AND LAY FLOWERS THERE.
    THIS, THE DEEP STATE OF GREAT TURKEY KNOWS ,NAY HAS MOST PROBABLY…AT LEAST  ALLOWED  SO TO SPEAK TO TAKE PLACE.SO THAT  IN FUTURE  IF NOW  OR MORE AHEAD…A TURKISH OFFICIAL DELEGATION ARRIVES AT THE MONUMENT,IT WILL NOT BE ARGUED  THAT  ..HOW COME  UNTILL NOW THEY DID  NOT DO SO.THEY WILL SAY WE  HAVE DONE  SO WITHOUT  FANFARE…WE  ARE  A VERY KIND PEOPLE.YOU ARMENIANS DO NOT APPRECIATE  OUR KINDNESS…
    GOD SAKE´S PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT  WE ARE UP AGAINST DEAR COMPATRIOTS..NOT JUST GREAT TURKEY -MADE SO  YOU KNOW BY WHOM-AND A TURKISH PRESIDENT AT THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE WHILE  SAID PRESIDENT´S(chavushoghlu)COUNTRY  IS A REAL(un-democracy) period  governed  by PINOCHET LIKE,STALIN,HITLER ETC.CHIEFS,RATHER  JUNTAS…A  BUNCH OF THEM.BUT  HOLD  IT  THERE!!!!
    MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED WITH NEAR 700 YRS OLD EMPIRE RULING GENMKIS KHAN LENG TEMOUR TYPE  DESPOTS .WHO YOU KNOW  WHAT  THEY WERE FAMOUS  FORE.BUT..
    LET US GET TO THE MAIN POINT  -HIGH POLITICS- NOW,WHY IS THE WEST,AS TO THIS JUNCTURE  OF TIME WOOING SUCH A STATE/junta..why?
    IT IS SIMPLE THEY BELIEVE  THIS STATE IS THE ONLY ONE  CAPABLE  OF ACTING A S  THEIR GENDERME /guard   over  MIDDLE EAST.IF ANY OF THOSE PRINCES  OF THE ARAB WORLD, ,SYRIA  IRAQ, OR EVEN  I R A N   ACTUALLY STEPS  ON THEIR TOES, THEN THIS TURKISH  ¨khers¨WRATH CAN BE LET  LOOSE  ON THEM TO ..TAKE  CARE  OF THEM.
    IS THIS A CORRECT  MANNER?AND REALIZABLE.I THINK  NOT , AS  THE RRRUSSIAN BEAR  IS STILL THERE-NOT TOO FAR- AN OLD VERY OLD FOE  OF THAT EMPIRE(toikish)AND HAS  ENGAGED  IN WARS  WITH THEM.ON TOP  OF THAT  THE OTHER,EX -EMPIRE  IS AWAKENING  …I R A N   AND CAN ALSO THROW ITS WIEHGT AROUND.FACT  IS IT IS VERY CAUTIOUSLY DOING SO.IT IS ALSO A MATTER  OF TIME THAT ISRAEL,WILL UNDERSTAND  THAT  SHE HAS BEEN PLAYING WITH FIRE..AND WILL BY AND BY CHANGE  STANCE TOWARDS OTHER DIRECTIONS…
    wHAT  SHOULD WE aRMENIANS  DO?MORE ABOUT  THAT  LATER  ON…

  25. ..AHMET.. above ### armenians express their feelings in Turkey? YES.###
    Tell us what happened to Hrant and countless others?   301  ??

  26. Dear Sylva-MD,  I love your poetries for indeed they do speak to my heart and I am sure also to every Armenian’s heart who feels the way you and I do.  It is so very befitting your last one above dedicated to Obama and his “Medz Yeghern” utterings to further delay or not to say and utter the word Genocide.

    ————————————————————————————

    HERE’S ONE IN ARMENIAN – SEERVART K-K

    Inchoo Turke mez chartets
    Khaydapghedoren mez an tservets…
    Inch shahetsav ir ararkov
    Arunarpoo ir yataghanov.

    Vorkan houyser ooner Haye ir yergroom
    Vorkan hoyyzer ooner Haye ir hokvoom,
    An bid shiner norashen shenker
    Kantagakordser herashk kaghakner…
    An ter bid dsener nor Apovyanner,
    Aharonyanner, Siamantoner yev
    Varoujanner…

    Haye bid abrer ir hayrenikoom
    Na bid shadanar ou parkavadjer,
    Na bid dsener nor Odyanner yev
    Tourianner,
    Na bid huser nor gamoorchner…

    Innisoonevets darin poloretsav
    Payts anmid Turke vochinch sorvetsav,
    Ge sharoonage an ter ooranal
    Te che chartets an mez, voch yerpek
    Deghahanootyoon er eradse miyayn.

    Togh vor Turke lav imana
    Te Haye kide ir iravoonknere,
    Menk aysor oonink azad Hayasdane
    Ir goghkin ganknads nayev Artsakhe,
    Payts chemoranank menk nayev spurke…. 

  27. The Turkish officials who plan to attend the April 24 commemoration in Armenia should NOT be permitted to enter the country!!

  28. Here’s another version of the last paragraph of my poem.

    Togh vor Turke lav imana
    Te Haye bashdban eh ir iravoonkneroon,
    An aysor oonee azad Hayasdane
    Ir goghkin ganknads lernayin Artsakhe,
    Payts chemoranank nayev mer spurke….

  29. In my opinion, if there is one thing Armenians haven’t learned how to do yet, it’s how to take any bad situation or any attack on us, turn it around, and use it to OUR ADVANTAGE.  All we do is try to neutralize or repel it.

    For instance, this latest tactic by Turkey.  Turkish officials will attend an April 24 event? Nice! We can definitely use that to our utmost advantage.  If Turkish officials attend a Genocide commemoration, that must mean they’re facing their past and they recognize the Genocide committed by their forefathers, so they have no reason to defer Genocide recognition anymore and it’s all the MORE reason why Obama should acknowledge it. Again, my point is, we have to use their tactics to our advantage.  it doesn’t matter what their intentions are.  What matters is what it would look like.  It’s true that Hillary Clinton’s visit to the Genocide Memorial in Yerevan did not mean that the US federal government reaffirmed its acknowledgement of the Genocide, but it did mean that Hillary Clinton, as an individual, acknowledges it and was paying her respects when she went there to lay a wreath.  When Abdullah Gül visited Armenia, he did NOT pay his respects at the Genocide Memorial like Clinton did.  As a denialist, he can’t.  Even if his purpose is to somehow derail genocide recognition with his ‘friendly relations’ tactic, it would be a grave miscalculation for him to lay a wreath there.  He would later lose the next presidential election in Turkey.

    Look at the comment written above by a Turk who calls himself “Mark”.  The Turkish people would be staunchly opposed to this sort of thing.  Why?  Because this would look like an admission of guilt, whether-or-not this is the intention of the Turkish officials.  If someone lays a wreath in front of a statue that specifically says “This is dedicated to the victims of the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE,” it means that individual recognizes the GENOCIDE committed on the ARMENIANS and is offering condolences.  The AKP is playing with fire with this ‘friendly relations’ tactic.  It can easily back-fire on them.  I say, we make it.
    In my humble opinion, we can turn the tides if we play our cards right.

  30. If “commemoration diplomacy” is to follow “soccer diplomacy” and  if Turkish government officials do invite themselves to the ceremonies in Turkey (how could Turkey’s Armenian dare say “go away”? - they would have no choice but to shake hands and extend thanks, unlike in the US or the EU!), even if they do so to commemorate the Turkish killers who caught a disease because of their Armenian victims’ decaying bodies, some Armenian gesture in return will be expected. What? Which thankful and diplomacy-minded Armenians will attend a commemoration at Talat’s monument, or in Igdir???? Only kidding – a little. For seriously, this announcement, which is probably meant to test the reactions of Armenians and of foreigners, is the most cynical and ugliest joke we have been served so far.
    Incidentally, one may notice that according to Ahmet, Turks have “opinions” while Armenians have “feelings”. Interesting difference…

  31. It’s sad that yet once more, the editorial board censored and then deleted my informative and sincere post. This goes to prove my point once again that if one is a Turk, there is censorship on this very site (let alone the penalties in places like Switzerland and France for denying publicly the Armenian “genocide”). How can anyone expect fairness here?!!

    Some of you mention Article 301, yet none of you mention what’s occurring on this very site! What you practice is pure hypocrosy! There’s no freedom to speak one’s mind here! Until this situation is rectified, not a single thing that any of you say can be credible, since any differing viewpoint is constantly removed (and we ALL know the real reason why, don’t we [members of the editorial board])! I’m sorry to say that this site has become a joke!

  32. avatar Varaz Syuni in Amsterdam // February 9, 2011 at 7:21 pm // Reply

    Դրօ – excellent comment.

    The Armenians MUST learn to be first  FOR themselves, then AGAINST Turks.

    Dear Armenians- use the energy of your emotions, but  (re)direct it to your  brain/mind and USE IT for your benefit.

    Dear Armenians- we HAVE to show the world and Turks that we are NOT againts the Turkish PEOPLE, but that we are FOR the recognition of …..

    And the Armenians must do much more to publish/make known stories where (some) Turks helped the Armenians during Genocide and praise them, so that many people would think: ” the situation of Armenians was SO HORRIBLE, that even (some) Turks helped Armenians -risking their own lives, because those Turks too could not take it anymore what they witnessed”.

  33. Dro you have a good point… if i understand this correctly, Turkish govt by offering to commemorate with Armenian indirectly getting themselves in the fire of guilt … they indirectly even if their intentions are completely for the wrong reasons tell the world that they ARE GUILTY of the GENOCIDE and that is why they are doing this…hmmmm.. i think i see where you are coming from…

    I also agree with you that we should use every tactic these bastards use to cover the truth and turn it on them… we HAVE to learn that .. it is already time for us to get them back in their own games…

    Mark… wow.. talk about hatred…and complete denial.. and we thought only the Turkish Govt feels that way..but du mi asa, ordinary Turks think like their Turkish govt clowns.. sooo sooo sad… but I don’t blame you .. i don’t hate you as an individual.. it is not your fault.. on the contrary.. i feel sorry for you and ilk.. well hopefully one day that will change… and you will be free of the poison you have in you and greet and accept what your ancestors did and extend a friendly hand with genuine understanding of the history of the ARmenian people.. and yours of course..

    G

  34. About as useful and caring as the fox commemorating the slaughter of the chicken?

  35. Robert, you are so naive…  maybe only one in ten of my posts make it here. Do I complain?  One should not be surprised when the expected happens.  Just enjoy the hipocracy.

  36. Aw boo hoo. Maybe Israeli websites should let neo-nazis say whatever they want and deny the Holocaust, right? If you’re a Turkish racist you shouldn’t even be on this site.

  37. Robert..agghhhh.. i am so tired of your whinning and puffing and moaning and complaining.. seriously.. enough is enough…

    So let me get this straight.. YOU, a Turk is comparing Article 301.. A GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED AND ENFORCED TURKISH LAW to censor and punish anyone from talking about the ARmenian Genocide or even utter the word Genocide to a local, and small Armenian on-line community in Diaspora???????? Talk about having no sense of contrast and comparison.. but thanks for the laugh Robert.. It really made my day…

    Oh and your comment
    What you practice is pure hypocrosy! There’s no freedom to speak one’s mind here! Until this situation is rectified, not a single thing that any of you say can be credible, since any differing viewpoint is constantly removed (and we ALL know the real reason why, don’t we [members of the editorial board])

    Sounds to me you described the very same thing we have been commenting, preaching,  in a calm manner explaining about you and your like including your Turkish govt and Turkish sites.. how ironic… how interesting.. how true….Thanks for confirming how your govt runs its business… LOL

    G

  38. Robert the  robot turk…  If this site “is a joke” as you say… then your own pursuit of ‘jokes’ will not be missed. Great!! Manooshag

  39. Here is the thing Murat and Robert… i wonder what you say in your comments that supposed AW board of police/security blocks them from appearing.. actually we already know how neo-Nazi like comments you post here but i wonder what else you have to say that are sooooooo bad, sooooooooooo wrong, or soooooooooooo stupid that AW does not allow your posts to show… hmmmmm.. …

    AW- i would like to request the following: please let everyone know if and why such posts have been written but not allowed to be posted. because apparently Murat and Robert will have a hernia because of this ..again.. not that i believe them because 99% of the commentators here have not had such experience with their posts being blocked ove and over.. i agree that from time to time it may happen due to many reasons but not on a regular basis like these two are proposing…

    I laugh when these two talk about hypocracy when their entire lives are built on that.. LOL wow.. it is here when we say.. padoshi eres unen.. 

    G

  40. avatar Grish Begian // February 10, 2011 at 7:38 pm // Reply

    Gayane jan,
    Don’t you see, that Turks are dying for implementation of penal code “301″ not only in US Congress, but in this humble Armenian Weekly..penal code 301 is written beside Turkish Koran to fool and brainwash their own citizens…’Mark’, “Robert”, Murad, Ahmed or….I wonder why Turkish citizens run away from a “civilized country” like Turkey, and why when they come to North America suddenly they become professional deniers of the Genocide of the Armenians…

  41. Robert:
     
    You frequently complain here and at Asbarez.com that your comments are being ‘censored’ (in quotes).
    Allow me to give you some facts:
     
    [1] I have no connection to ArmenianWeekly, but from being a long time reader of both its paper and web content the main focus is Armenian issues: issues that concern the worldwide Armenian Diaspora, Republic of Armenia, (unrecognized) Republic of Artsakh, and in the future two more republics; Republic of Western Armenia and Republic of Cilicia.
    So which part of  Armenian don’t you get ?
    [2] Asbarez is the paper of record for the Armenian ARF Political Party.
    [3] Both are private enterprises.
    [4] Both have the absolute legal right to ‘censor’ (in quotes) anyone and everyone. They have no obligation to provide anyone a forum.
    Neither one has the obligation to provide a forum for your Anti-Armenian, Pro-Turkish propaganda and disinformation.
    [5] The term ‘censorship’ applies only to Government: a private entity is not capable of censorship.
    [6] Your comments appear both on ArmenianWeekly and Asbarez with more frequency than anyone else, as far as I can tell.
    [7] You are allowed to post the Armenian “genocide”  ‘: not only that expression – “genocide” in quotes – is an insult to the memory of 2,000,000 Armenian victims of Ottoman Turks (from early 1890s to early 1920s), but insults every living Armenian.
    [8] I am frankly surprised how much you are allowed to comment, given your virulently  Anti-Armenian postings: kudos to ArmenianWeekly and Asbarez for upholding the centuries old Armenian traditions of tolerance and benevolence.
     
    If anyone – Armenian or not – were to go on a Turkish website and say anything derogatory towards your hero Mustafa Kemal, do you think the comment would see the light of day ? Of course not. For example, if someone said Kemal was an alcoholic (historical fact), womanizer (historical fact) – those comments would not be flushed ? Of course they would.
     
    How do we know this to be true ? Here (Nov 4, 2010):
    ——
    Just days after lifting its two-year ban on YouTube, Turkey reinstated the ban over another video deemed illegal by the nation.

    Where before it was the nation’s founder Mustafa Kemal Ataturk who was disparaged in a video, this time, it was a clip of politician Deniz Baykal’s illicit tryst with a female aide.

    According to Reporters sans Frontieres (RSF), “thousands of websites” are blocked in Turkey; and Reuters is reporting that many human rights groups and media watchdog associations has urged Turkey to reform its strict online censorship laws.
    ——
     
    Here in the United States, unless you are explicitly advocating violence against someone or some group, no Government entity can shut you down (1st Amendment). You can insult the President, the Supreme Court Justices….anyone in the Government.
     
     
    So before you guys complain about Armenian anything, clean up your own Turkish society first.

  42. @Robert, You are very wrong.  I am Armenian and before answering on this article, about a week or so ago, I wrote several times under the comments section in regards to another article, and my very last post was never published.  I was displeased about a poster’s note, even though I have agreed with him in my very first post in my answer to him, but my last reply to him was never published.  I didn’t make a big deal about it like you are doing and I just let it go.  I didn’t even rewrite it.  I just let it go.  So don’t assume that they don’t publish a few of your writings because you happen to be a Turk.

  43. @Murat, I have already answered to Robet’s whining.  There’s no hipocricy on this paper.  They are in the business of publishing a paper and they are doing a darn good job if you ask me.  Just because they don’t publish every post you write, doesn’t mean that they don’t do it to anyone and everyone, yes including to Armenians as well.  The editors and the administrators are careful that people are not going to fight with one another.  If it’s something redundant or you are in a fighting mood or constantly in denial, then they are careful about such matters and do not publish the one’s that will irritate the other posters, especially when you will be constantly in denial of the Armenian Genocide.  They have to keep the peace on these columns as editors and administrators.  It doesn’t matter whether you are a Turk or an Armenian.  I hope I made myselft clear.

  44. I think we should welcome all Turks that wish to attend the Memorial (the more the better) and give them a copy of my CALL, rolled and bound with a red ribbon (depicting blood), just like they do in graduation ceremonies; welcome them one by one and present them a rolled CALL. Here is my CALL.

    CALL

    Looking for My Long Lost ‘Cousin’
    Hello, my Turkish “friend.” Are you sure your great-grandmother was not Armenian?
    Between 1896 and 1915, continued to 1923, the Armenian population of current eastern Turkey was systematically annihilated. They were simply dislodged from their hometowns, able-bodied men were separated from the family and killed, and the old folks, women and children were forcibly marched from village to village until they all perished.
    During these marches, whenever the group passed through a village, the Turkish village-boys, and men, helped themselves to Armenian females and young girls for sex. They also helped themselves to young boys for the same purpose. It was a big free-for-all. They would abduct them, take them home, and the whole clan would use them as sex-slaves, for years. Thousands of them.
    Some of these girls eventually became pregnant and bore children. Turks being historically nomadic and familial invariably accepted these babies into the family, and they grew up as another child of the family. The boys, in turn, upon reaching manhood became love objects of the Turkish wife, the “khanoom,” who, also, eventually became pregnant, and their children, likewise, became part of the family.
    These half-Armenian children grew up as Turkish speaking men and women who married and made families and carried on their normal lives thinking they are Turks.
    My long lost ‘cousin’ may be one of these half-Armenians.
    Hello, my Turkish “friend.” Are you sure you are not my ‘cousin’? Are you sure your great-grandmother, or great-grandfather, was not Armenian? … ARE YOU SURE?
    We may be ‘cousins,’ after all. 
    Why don’t you go find out.

    And yes, “One percent Armenian equals hundred percent Armenian.”

    END

    This will work like the Trojan Horse. Half of Turkey’s population will suddenly become Armenian, they will revolt and they will kick out all true Turks (if there IS such a thing) to the Altay Mountains, where they came from, and where they belong.

  45. I suspect that some Armenians like Mouradian are more concerned by any Turkish participation in commemorations lest it weakens the poignancy of the 24 April event for other surreptitious reasons. After all the greatest threat to Armenians today is not the Turkish government but apathy and the perennial struggle of assimilation within its diaspora. Heaven forbid the Turks show any subtle acknowlegement of Armenian suffering and weaken a yearly rallying cry. Compassionate Turks are not really good for business are they Mr Mouradian?

  46. @Zeki, As far as I am concerned and I do know that this paper certainly does welcome compassionate Turks with open arms and open hearts.  You are talking rubbish Zeki.  Orhan Pamuks and the likes of him are very much welcomed and loved by all of us and especially by Mr. Mouradian and this  paper’s editors.  That’s exactly what Herant Dink wished.  He wanted and wished to have the majority of the Turkish people to be intelligent about the Armenian Genocide, and certainly and hopefully to be compassionate about it and towards the heirs of our martyrs.  This paper and certainly the editors of this paper very much wishes to see more of compassionate Turks.  We all do, that is us Armenians around the world.  That’s exactly what we want; for the Turkish people to be knowledgeable and compassionate like Orhan Pamuk has been.  The government of Turkey until today, doesn’t wish their people to know the truth and therefore they are in denial.  If the Turkish government starts acknowledgeing the veracity of the Armenian Genocide, then we can all move on and have closure for heaven’s sake.  But with acknowledgement it must be followed with all due fairness reparations for all the losses that occured during the Genocide.  It’s only fair that Turkey starts acting responsibly.  The same happened to the Jews after the Germans accepted the Haulocaust.  At least they had closure as well as reparations that was due to them by Germany.

  47. Ashot Yerkat– love your CALL.. i think we should distribute that to everyone in Turkey and outside who thinks they are Turks…

    Zeki- show me any Turk who is truly compassionate and genuine …… then we will talk.. but until then Turks like Robert, Ahmet, Mark, Murad and ilk including their low life Turkish Govt will be seen as bloodthirsty, Anti-Armenian and denial entities… so there.. hopefully i answered your question..

    G

  48. avatar shantagizoum // February 11, 2011 at 9:44 am // Reply

    To Ashot Yergat!
    Alas..Ashot.This will not happen.That  is your imagined  CALL  thing,as  their FOX Goveernment cannot let  them come  in like you picture.Only small delegations will.those  that  are  like the GESTAPO or NKVD  trained agents—
    We are dealing with these people  not the core  of the rural  turks,half  Armenian half kurd,Greek  what  not…those  are  in the background.But wait…there may be some hope…no not  what  you imagine from their 3/4%  educated.  but  the thick  of them may turn REAL ISLAMIC    and kick out the kemalists

  49. avatar Lucin From, Buenos Aires // February 11, 2011 at 12:54 pm // Reply

    @ Robert;
    You could learn by watching the following clip.
    First Prime Minister of Turkey must do this. 

     In 1970 Chancellor Willi Brandt
    http://www.onlinefootage.tv/video/show/id/2058

  50. Please note: When I asked Zeki to show me any truly compassionate and genuine Turks I was referring to the majority who thinks like Roberts, Murats, Ahmeds and the like… We all know that there are Turks who were and are friends of the Armenians. Unfortunately they ae few in between and I wish the number will increase..These Turks give us hope that the time will come when many will rise with us and help to fight against a huge tide of denial, hatred and injustice that has spread like a virus in their countrymen and countrywoman brains….

    G

  51. Dear Seervart,
    The likes of Pamuk and Akcam are partially embraced on the basis that they reject the views of current political establishment in Turkey, nothing more. Furthermore, I see very little desire or goodwill at the grassroots level to establish ties between the communities. In fact I see evidence actively discouraging contact between Armenians and Turks on the basis that it could douse the fire in Armenian hearts and minds. It is abundantly clear that this has turned into a zero sum game, genocide or bust. It wouldn’t matter if a million Turks turned up to commemorate fallen Armenians. Mouradian himself has confirmed as much. Apologies are redundant, all that matters are reparations and property. The humanitarian aspect of this tragedy has been lost long ago.
     
     
     
     

  52. avatar Random Armenian // February 12, 2011 at 1:44 am // Reply

    Cihan,
    Armenians have a deep rooted sense of cynicism towards Turkey that has been earned through the actions of the government of Turkey over decades. Most of us know better to paint all individual Turks with the same brush. There are many in the diaspora who’s family was saved by their Turkish neighbors. But emotions and cynicism are still strong and it’s easy to lash out at Turks.
    One can however say that nationalism in Turkey is very strong and it’s pushed from the government down to the people. And this is a problem. I hope this will be tempered as people talk more and be introspective in Turkey (I think you can feel the Armenian cynicism on this).
    Also, there is a strong feeling of Turkish destiny within the AKP leadership, fed by Ottoman nostalgia. I read a sense of Turkish exceptionalism in these guys. They have a desire to dominate the region that was once under Ottoman rule. This has led to a certain level of deception and duplicity by these guys. I don’t think I’m alone in reading the AKP in this way. These are the vibes I see coming from Erdogan and Davutoglu.
    In this context I am also cynical of any overtures by the Turkish government, mentioned in this Mouradian’s article. There is too much distrust to take words and overtures at face value. However doors are starting to open between people at grassroots level and that’s something very hopeful.


  53. Zeki:

    The humanitarian aspect of this tragedy has been lost long ago?

    Say the same sentence to any Israelite or for any responsible Jewish individual and they’ll never make you forget you uttered these words.  At the very least they’ll make you publicly apologize and still make you pay dearly for your incensitive utterings.  A magnitude of this murder of a nation Zeki, can never, I repeat never be forgotten or lost.  Indeed reparations must be paid by the Turkish government and the heirs of the Armenian nationality and let me tell you this Genocide to the Armenian civilians from 1915 through 1923 can NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.  Not in a 100 years, not in a 1000 years. 

  54. @ Zeki,

    More than 1.5 Million Armenians were atrociously annihilated and the Armenians were uprooted from their anscestral homeland of Western Armenia, that is today’s Eastern Turkey.  Reparations to the heirs of the Martyrs of the Armenians who were annihilated must be paid by the Turkish government in terms of our KILOMETERS OF OUR LANDS.

  55. Seervart: Well said.
     
    Minor correction though: we keep forgetting the Hamidian Massacres (1890, where about 300,000 Armenians were exterminated. If we add up all the other massacres (e.g. Adana, 1909: 30,000) that naturally pale in comparison to 1915, the actual number exterminated by Ottoman Turks is close to 2,000,000. What is even more horrific, over and above the absolute numbers, is that about 90% of Armenians living in Ottoman Turkey were exterminated; rest somehow escaped and managed to survive (Syria, Lebanon, etc).
    It has been estimated that if Armenians had not been exterminated by the Ottoman Turks, there would be about 30,000 Armenians today.
    So in effect, Turks owe us that many lives.

  56. TYPO: 30,000 should have said 30,000,000 (30 Million)

  57. Dear Avery:  You are absolutely correct!!!!!

    I have said the same things in other websites and sometimes in here too, and the answer I got from a few turks was; now your are making the 1.5 Million to 2 Million?  In fact my dear compatriot Avery, If you add up as you have justly mentioned above 300,000+9,000+1,500,000+constantly much before and after the hamidian massacres until 1915, Armenians were constantly abducted, raped, killed and little boys were stolen from their mothers that the Turks made “Yenicheris” out of those little boys, meaning that after stealing our little Armenian boys, they have made a Turkish army out of them to later fight against their own kind – Armenians.  In reality, if Armenians were not annihilated and only from the Hamidian massacres through 1915-1923, today we would have been 44,000,000 Million and not a mere 8 or 9,000,000 all around the world.  These are the true figures and the true picture of the magnitude of the horrificness of the Armenian nationality. 

  58. Avery,
    Add to that about 1 million Assyrians, Pontic Greeks and other Christians and you have a total of 3 million innocent lives consumed by specific policies of the Turkish government in the formation of the present nation. This much genocide, however, doesn’t even seem to cause even a hiccup for the ‘great powers’ as long as they can keep their eyes turned away and do a brisk business with Turkey.
     

  59. avatar Lucin from, Buenos Aires // February 12, 2011 at 6:53 pm // Reply

    Avery you’re right and her are sum more.
    In fact many GENOCIDES took place in the years 1828, 1856, 1878, all before
    the 1895/1896 Sultan Hamid Turkish massacres of the Armenians and all well before
    theTurkish genocide of Anatolian Armenians in 1915. At a time there were Millions of
    Armenians in turkey; they were systematically subjugated to GENOCIDES,

  60. avatar Lucin from, Buenos Aires // February 12, 2011 at 7:14 pm // Reply

    Today in Turkey Armenians are still called Gyavur.
     Turks Ottomans view Armenians as “infidels ““  If a Turk says that his parents were
    Armenians, he will be labeled “Gyavur”” (infidels) and classified as an outcast”,
    editor of Akos newspaper HRANT DINK said during the talk with Bas.”

  61. Seervart,
    The difference is that the Jewish community were NOT seeking to carve out separate state in the Rheinland of Germany. They weren’t retrospectively seeking the application of a LEGAL word decades later. And now your just jumping on a convenient band wagon to justify your own appeal to emotion.  Yes, unfortunately the humanitarian aspect of this issue has been lost because Armenians themselves have positioned this as a legal and political rather than moral issue. And when things get legal/political they also tend to get ugly. In that context are you really surprised that the Turkish government becomes defensive and then challenges every statement/resolution that’s contrary to it’s legal and political interests?
     

  62. @Zeki,

    Jews never had to, as they never had a country called Israel in the vicinity of Germany.  After the Haulocaust they demanded and have acquired however an enormous amount “billions and billions of dollars” from Germany and created Israel with the help of England.  However Eastern Turkey was Armenia for thousands of years.  It was Armenian homeland from time immemorial until the Seljuk Turks came from Mongolia from 1100′s and slowly took over both Hellenistic country on the west and Armenian Highlands on the East.  By massacring and committing the first Genocide of the 20th century, Turkey premeditated by killing more than 1.5+ Million Armenians and pushed the remainders out of their own anscestral lands.  That is why Armenians claim their own homeland back after Turkey committed the Armenian Genocide.  FYI there is a legal document which is The Wilson Arbitration Award.  And it doesn’t matter how long has it been, Armenians can and will get hold of their anscestral homeland one way or the other, since it’s a known fact that a crime of such magnitude cannot and will not be unpunished without the country that committed such a horrendous crime be held responsible and pay reparations to the heirs of the martyrs of the Armenian people.  Since Armenians were targeted and the majority were killed by the Turkish government to get hold of their land, it is very much a subject of morality issue as well as a legal issue to have reparations made in full to the heirs of the all Armenians.

    Ask yourself then, has it become so ugly or politically unjust when Jews were legally paid billions of billions of dollars in lieu of land to them by Germany?  Since Israel was NEVER in Germany, then in legal terms a great deal of money was paid to them in lieu of land and all that money was invested in creating Israel.    

  63. @Avery,

    Your Turkish immoral denyalist government is a joke.   They call a Genocide for a few hundreds that were killed in China, then they go and slaughter in this day and age the Kurdish people living within and amidst them as citizens of Turkey.  And yet you are on their side uttering words that you cannot blame them?  I see that you are the outcome of their denialist regime.  Another denialist Turk.  I am not surprised when your Turkish government has fed and educated you with their warped logic.  


  64. Armenian Massacres in Adana Year 1909:
    (Undefined Genocide)
     
    What massacres to remember?
    Weep…burry inside your chest
    With your kin…
    Say your prayers…

    How long to pray to Almighty… What to plea,
    To ask, “How can cruel people pray to God
    Yet exist to slay and stay proud!”
    Can God return our lost ancestors, even on a screen,
    To tell of endless cruelties of so-called humans;
    Those…can slay even an unborn sound.
     
    Turkifications being carried out since
    The eleventh century and to this date,
    Turks with Armenian names Hamshentsi-Hemsinly from word Hemsin *.
    They were forced to change their religion                                    
    Whoever refused was thrown in valleys and rivers alive.
     
    Today, Armenians can never comprehend there are Armenians
    Who willingly changed their ancestors’ faith
    Without force and in full belief.
     
    Count the massacres:
    Hemsin from eleventh century (1064)
    Hamidian (1894-1998)
    Adanaian(1909)**
    Scavengerian (1915-1923)
    Further Turkifications after the genocide of 1915
    And soundlessly…the second and third carried by Ataturk.
     
    Morgenthau*** defined in year 1915, the last massacre,
    As a “Campaign of Race Extermination.”
    All ended well as it was defined as Genocide
    Genocide…Genocide…Genocide…
    By the clever, dedicated, Lawyer Raphael Lemkin****
    Who defined it after his tactful analysis
    To engrave it without doubt to be an Authentic Genocide.

    The last Turkificaion was the worst:
    Turkifying what was left of the Armenians
    Mostly orphans after the last genocide.
     
    Once again not to be named
    As Hamshentsi of the Eleventh Century
    But definitely actual Turkish, by new Ataturk
    By changing their Names and Surnames,
    With an Ataturkian signed birth certificate.
    Language, Religion, Ethnicity, Culture…*****
    For they insisted…that no one can return to their
    Armenian descent in any way… Thus forever.
     
    Still…every free human has a tongue
    That can extend outside the lips and
    Reach the scavengers.
     
    Even if smashed down;
    Physiologically the tongue possesses laced myocytes* and
    A heavy blood supply like that of the hart
    And more than any other organ
    Shall not be grieved.

    The Genuine Spirits have Faith and Fate
    That… Nothing named forever
    Hence…forceful tragedies on humanity
    Shall never last forever.”
     
    April 2009

  65. Zeki –
     
    The Jewish community was not seeking to carve out a separate state in the Rheinland of Germany because their historical homeland was hundreds of miles away: in the Middle East. The historical homeland of Armenians is the Armenian Plateau in Asia Minor, Turkified by the Turks as “Eastern Anatolia,” that was invaded and colonized by Seljuk and then Ottoman Turks and then deliberately and systematically emptied of Armenians and other Christians. Where else are you suggesting Armenians to re-possess their stolen ancestral lands?
     
    Jews weren’t retrospectively seeking the application of a legal word decades later, because the legal term “genocide” was non-existent in 1894-1896 during the Hamidian massacres and in 1915-1923 during the Ittihadists and Kemalists’ annihilation of the Armenian race. Raphael Lemkin coined the term “genocide” only in 1943 based, by the way, on his study of the annihilation of Armenians and Jews by Turks and Germans, respectively. Non-existence of a specific legal term doesn’t relieve Turks from bearing responsibility for a crime and pay reparations for it. Contemporaries and witnesses of the Turkish barbarity in 1915 called it “deliberate annihilation of race.” Do you feel more comfortable with annihilating millions of human beings even if the term “genocide” was not invented back in 1915?
     
    Armenians have positioned this as a legal and political issue because punishment for a crime against humanity, according to the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide, has no time limitations. If Turks prefer it to be a moral rather than legal and political issue, might you know why your governments avoid offering an apology to the Armenians? Isn’t an apology a moral gesture? Or you think the Turkish government, as a legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, can get away with acknowledging their predecessors’ heinous crime? If that hasn’t happened for the past 95 years, don’t cherish a hope it’ll ever happen in the future…

  66. TODAY´S  PANARMENIAN.COM refers to aliev´s and his chief  of the military as to latter´s and Aliev´s determined stance .That  of taking back Azeri territories.
    IT IS CLEAR QUITE CLEAR ,at least to those  who care to meditate  that  the source/support  to above chieftains  is great  Turkey.As long as  Armenians  have  not given up their GENOCIDE RECOGNITION DECISION AND ACTIVISM TO THAT END,their  position remains so.
    Therefore,instead  of wasting  your energy and time to persuade  these few turks,even a few naive amongst  us that we can somehow kiss and make  up with present  racist Turkey,try to REACT  EXACTLY  AS THEY DO.HOW?
    BOTH AZERBAIJAN AND GREAT  TURKEY, YOU MUST  BY AND BY MAKE AN EFFORT TO OVERCOME YOUR DOMINEERING,NAY DESPOTIC WHIMS/desires.We,Armenians are  not  those ¨Rayas¨ ANYMORE, AS  DDEMONSTRATED  IN  ARTSAKH, NAGORNYI KARABACKH.Ourweak -after genocide  position  has undergone tremendous change.We have advanced  not  only in ordinary trades and crafts etc., BUT  IN TECHNOLOGY,INDUSTRY AND ALSO ECONOMICALLY. Either, be more sensible,GET RID OF YOUR PRESENT FASCIST GOVT.-(which  anyhow will come to pass like in Egypt) OR GO ON WITH YOUR PERRENIAL  DREAMS  OF  PAN TURANISM AND DOWNGRADING  ALL,REPEAT  ALL NEIGHBOR  SSTAXTES-PEOPLE.chanting….Ermenis  are Rayas, Persians are  AJEMI….Arabs are meek  divided between this that state,etc.,
    IT IS UPTO you good turks  with intelligent  ,nay educated  minds .PICK  YOUR CHOICE!!

  67. Seervart:
    re; “..@Avery,
    Your Turkish immoral denyalist government is a joke …”
     
    Oops: I think you got me confused with somebody else.
    No sweat; I have done it myself a few times – late night, tired, sticky keyboard….happens.
    (BTW: my current government is USA: I am as Armenian as it gets)
    (        and I don’t know anyone else on these posts posting under ‘Avery’)

  68. Hello Avery jan..  I think Seervart wrote your name by error as well..:) When I read the first sentence, i knew she was referring to a Turk and not you… but like you said it happens……. Well comments as well..

    Seervart jan- well said.. excellent comments….

    Karo jan.. you too..apres

    Zeki- you are yet another unfortunate Turk who don’t see the bigger picture and stuck in the closed minded, expressionless, cold and minus intelligent status quo as I say it… as i read your comments, i wonder if you and your like are really THAT dumb or you just play dumb… i am sorry if i am being blunt about thisand i am sorry if i come off rude but i am so sick and tired of you people shouting uneducated information and on top of that being proud of it too.. that was buggles my mind.. are you people THAT arrogant and robot like to ignore all the evidence, information, history and testimonies? Your govt did a great job turning your brains into hey and I feel sorry for you and your comrads who think the same… i really do… I pray to God for Him to bring knowledge, emotions and understanding to you and ilk…

    G

  69. Dear Avery,

    My apologies, I was actually writing to Zeki and I didn’t even realize until now that you mentioned that I wrote my second post addressing to you BY MISTAKE.  I meant to write to Zeki.

    Best,

    Seervart

  70. Dear Karo,

    Your justified explanations in your above post is outstanding and excellent, and thank you.  Just to add a few; after the mastermind of the Ittihadist government, Tallat Pasha and his heinous act of systematically annihilating the Armenians from 1915 thru 1923, Talaat later went to the United States Ambassador, Morgenthau and asked him that since all the Armenians are now dead he said, could Morgenthau provide him with all the insurance accounts of the Armenians so that he could claim and take all their insurance monies.  Of course Morgenthau turned a deaf ear to Talaat and shook his head in disgust.  At another time, Talaat said that after the annihilations, Armenians are now would be very angry, and therefore he should see to it that the annihilation of the Armenians are done in total so that no Armenian will exist on the face of the earth and they wouldn’t be able to take their revenge for what he has done to them.  At another time, Talaat said that now that practically all Armenians are massacred and killed, they will not be able to raise their heads and demand justice for another fifty(50) years.  And that’s exactly what has happened, since the majority of survivors were children who’s parents were killed, and a whole nation was left orphaned, hungry, exiled and scattered all over the world in a desolate, dismal and devestated phisical and in an emotional state.

    Today after 95 years, nearing the 96th year of the Armenian Genocide when it started on April 24, 1915, there comes a person by the name of Zeki who speaks as the mouthpiece of a denialist Turkish government and tells us point blank that the Armenian Genocide is long forgotten now and that perhaps we should only seek the moral reprimend by Turkey.  We know that the Turkish government is on denial to get out any and all responsiblity of the Armenian Genocide.  But the Turkish government is not even apologyzing to the Armenians as moral reprimendation, because if they do apologyze, the reparations to the Armenian nation will follow, according to the United Nation’s Convention on Genocide.

  71. Karo,

    Just so it’s clear, Germany never had a legal obligation under international law to pay reparations only a moral one. It was essentially voluntary act (ignoring if you will the ‘shake down’ from the US government and world Jewry at the time). In contrast, Armenians have inextricably linked an apology/compensation with territorial concessions. It hangs like the sword of damocles over any governments head making an acknowlegement impossible. That’s why I say this has now shifted from being a moral issue to a property dispute. I often wonder if Armenians have just overplayed their hand or was the intent all along to convert the communities grief into a sense of empowerment? 

    And yes sadly for some, the Turkish government can and has got away legally without acknowledging anything prior to its formation. Good luck with trying to get retrospective application of the laws (including Wilson’s Arbitration), it won’t work. It’s far too late in the day to be talking about the legitimacy of conquests from the Seljuk and Ottoman periods. Your historical lands are lost. Time, possession and population growth has put paid to that. The moral obligation however remains and I hope one day future governments act responsibility, with humility and sensitivity to the pains endured by it’s minorities and respect that at the end of the day we are merely temporary custodians of the lands we reside on today. But that’s just not enough is it?   

  72. Zeki… i am sorry to say but you speak like hateful Anti-Armenian Turk..just so you know..your blubberish does not matter because no matter how long it takes, if not our generation, this fight will never end.. and rest assure people like you and your govt will apologize and pay at the end … you keep dreaming we will forget and will stop fighting…it will not happen..

    G

  73. Abris Gayane jan,  Indeed!! This fight will never end until justice prevail.  if not today, tomorrow, if not us, our children, if not our children, our children’s children who will see to it that justice prevails, reparations are paid in full and in terms of Kelometers of our historical homeland.

  74. Zeki –
     
    You write: “Germany never had a legal obligation under international law to pay reparations, only a moral one.” You omit two important points here. First, international law applicable to the Jewish, Armenian, and other cases (i.e. The UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide), was enacted in 1948, that is, after both the genocide of Armenians and the holocaust of the Jews took place. However, the Convention specifically states that “the prescribed punishment [for committing genocide] is not subject to the limitations of time and place.” Second, German atrocities were condemned by an international tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946 and were labeled as crimes against humanity, which greatly facilitated the Reparations Agreement between West Germany and Israel signed six years later, in 1952. By the way, the most significant early use of the legal term “crimes against humanity” came in May of 1915, when the Allies of World War I—Britain, France, and Russia—jointly issued a statement explicitly denouncing, for the first time, the commission of a “crime against humanity” in response to the Armenian genocide and warned of responsibility for the Ottoman government and their agents. I guess what I’m trying to say is that German atrocities were condemned according to the existing international law which made it possible for Germans to sign the Reparations Agreement with the Jews. As such, it was not purely a voluntary act, nor was it a totally moral obligation, but rather a combination of a consequence of the indictment of an international military tribunal and Germans’ civilizational ability to repent. Both are absent in the case of the Turks: the Turks have neither an international courts’ verdict for their crime nor the civilizational ability to admit and repent for the heinous crimes. As a result, Armenians continue efforts at international recognition of the Armenian genocide, while bilaterally inviting the Turks to offer apology for near-annihilating one of the most ancient civilizations inhabiting the Earth.
     
    You write: “In contrast [to the Jews], Armenians have inextricably linked an apology/compensation with territorial concessions.”I already explained this. Armenians link apology/compensation with territorial restitution (“concessions” is an inappropriate term because Armenian vilayets were never genuinely Turkish lands) because the historical homeland for the Jews was never in the German lands of Baden-Württemberg, Bavaria, or Rhineland-Palatinate. Armenian Homeland in the lands in the modern-day Eastern Turkey from which they were forcibly deported and annihilated en masse. Do you appreciate the difference or I need to repeat this for the third time?
     
    You write: “This [recognition] has now shifted from being a moral issue to a property dispute.” Zeki, has it ever been a moral issue for the Turks to shift to a “property dispute”? I mean, how many times in the history of the Turkish Republic have you admitted the issue as being moral? Allow me to remind you that Turks haven’t admitted the issue at all, and only recently started to acknowledge that the issue exists because of their EU entry ambitions and realization of the fact that the number of countries recognizing the Armenian genocide grows. If you think the issue ever was a moral one, I repeat my question to you again: why no Turkish government ever offered a moral apology to the Armenians? Or you only accept morality the “Turkish way”: mass murder innocent people and then get away with murder?
     
    You write: “I often wonder if Armenians have just overplayed their hand or was the intent all along to convert the communities’ grief into a sense of empowerment?” Neither of these. Armenians just advance the Cause to receive justice. Mustn’t grief be comforted, Zeki?
     
    You write: “And yes sadly for some, the Turkish government can and has got away legally without acknowledging anything prior to its formation.” This is a cynical, condescending statement. Typically nomadic Seljuk and imperialist Ottoman Turkish mentality, although you refer to modern Turkish republic. Legally, the Turkish Republic is a successor of the Ottoman Empire, therefore it cannot get away from acknowledging anything prior to its formation. Sevres Treaty-based Wilson’s Arbitration serves as the only legal document that modern-day Turkey abides to implement. There is no other international legal document containing signatures of both Turkey and the Republic of Armenia, than the Treaty of Sevres. You can wish us luck or send us to hell, but it won’t change historical facts, one of them being that Seljuk and Ottoman Turks never in the history of the mankind were sedentary peoples of Asia Minor. History doesn’t know such things as “too late in the day” or “too early in the day.” It records and preserves facts.
    You write: “Your historical lands are lost. Time, possession and population growth has put paid to that.” Our historical lands are lost not because the second Great Flood occurred, but because they were stolen as a result of the Great Crime. And those who committed it must be held accountable. As for time, possession and population growth, these are variables. Just as mighty empires that collapse or nation-states that undergo drastic transformations are variables.
     
    You write: “I hope one day future governments act responsibly, with humility and sensitivity to the pains endured by its minorities and respect that at the end of the day we are merely temporary custodians of the lands we reside on today. But that’s just not enough, is it?” Nope, that appears not to be enough, because Ottoman Turks and all successive Turkish governments never acted as if they were “merely temporary custodians of the lands.” Otherwise, they wouldn’t exterminate all sedentary civilizations inhabiting those lands from times immemorial to make more place for the nomadic Turks. Also, these sedentary people were made “minorities,” the millets, only during the centuries of the loathed Ottoman rule, Historically, they were masters of their own lands.
     
    Lastly, when do you think future Turkish governments will act responsibly, with humility and sensitivity to the pains endured by indigenous peoples in the hands of the Turks? Hasn’t it ever occurred to you that 95 years after committing the genocide of the Armenians, was a sufficient time period to act responsibly, with humility and sensitivity? Or you’re just trying to give Armenians a sleeping pill? Ain’t gonna work…

  75. Karo, Once again I applaud your well thought out, leggally abiding, justly and accurate answers.  Thank you for your good knowledge of history, the law of the land and international law.  Abris janig.

  76.   Zeki – Are you learning, you should pay Karo for this wonderful lecture.
     
     

  77. Seervart jan.. Mersi..

    Karo jan- I am with Seervart.. excellent comment.. thank you

    Bedros- you are too funny.. thanks for the laugh..

    Zeki- you should learn how to see matters as moral, humane and just before pushing your thought process (wrong in my case) on to the descendents of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide.. I wanted to take you out of the ranks of Roberts, Ahmeds, Murats, and others but it seems like you are two peas in the pot. it is unfortunate..

    G

  78. To Zeki: If there is an ‘inextricable link’ between apology and compensation (in land or otherwise) to Armenians it must be found in the paranoia and residual guilt of certain Turks, certainly not with Armenians who for nine decades only sought an admission of moral responsiblity for the genocide (this even though it is only natural that if someone has stolen something from you but then repents and admits it, they should at least give you back what they stole or its equivalent). Nevertheless, for the greater part of the last century Armenians only sought for an admission of moral responsibility for the crime committed against them. Only recently have they come to the realization that something more concrete was needed to get the attention of the successors to the Ottoman empire who have been trying so desperately recently to defend the honor of their predecessors by muddying the waters with word games, calling the Armenian Genocide a mutually experienced ‘catastrophe’ that engulfed both Armenians and Turks equally. ANYTHING to avoid calling it by its true name and shouldering the responsibility that any self-respecting nation would assume.  It’s too late to wish for the discussion to return once more to a purely moral mode at some uncertain point in the future.
    And what sense of ‘moral obligation’, what sense of humility and sensitivity to minorities, what concern for ‘custodianship’  can you be talking about when you gloss over the successful extermination of the  people who were for millenia the true custodians of the lands of eastern Anatolia as simply part of a natural, historic process?

  79.  Karo,

    I repeat, Germany’s reparations were a moral act insofar as there was no specific legal instrument compelling payment. Yes of course the ‘voluntary/moral’ nature of this payment could be disputed especially when they were faced with the weight of world Jewry mobilized for an economic war against Germany and Allied imposing threats on their sovereignty. But nevertheless the fact is UN Conventions are useless for retrospective applications of historical incidents. If it wasn’t why you haven’t done anything to get retrospectively applied as yet?

    You write “Armenian vilayets were never genuinely Turkish lands”. I’ll beg to differ. This sounds like the equivalent of getting into an argument with Sioux Indians in the US or Aboriginals in Australia about the legitimacy of their territorial conquests. It’s a moot point, very hard to unwind hundreds of years of history.

    You write “There is no other international legal document containing signatures of both Turkey and the Republic of Armenia, than the Treaty of Sevres”. Wrong. Kars Treaty. Secondly the Ottoman signature not the Republic of Turkey. Thirdly the Treaty of Luasanne legally terminated any successor rights and obligations to former Ottoman territories, treaties, debts etc. Curiously, how is it that every now and then some scholarly Armenian writes a brilliant piece on The Sevres Treaties validity and then the Armenian peanut gallery praises, salutes and rants what are we waiting for, lets initiate court action after court action and then pop nothing but silence?    

    You write “I mean, how many times in the history of the Turkish Republic have you admitted the issue as being moral?” Actually very early on. Even M.K. (Ataturk) recognized the damage and misery the remnants of the CUP had done to the country and how they should have been held accountable. Even today many Turks would be prepared to embrace this from a moral perspective but political machinations prevent any progress I believe. Although admittedly still a small minority, conciliatory voices in Turkey are basically being drowned out because the nature of the dispute has turned political/legal. Anyway I’m not that naive to believe there’s an overwhelming Armenian preponderance for reconciliation with Turks. You want land not apologies, discussion full stop.  

     

  80. @Keri,

    I’ll let Karo answer your latest post; but I will answer on a couple of very important points, then I’ll let Karo say his piece.

    You have to understand that for a Genocide of extermination because of people belonging to a different racial, ethnic and religion; the country that has committed the crime, right after an apology it must be following up with a form of a reparation, otherwise the apology is meaningless.  If any crime is committed by one man to another, the law of the land requires that the killer pays his wrongdoing by serving his time with a sentence in jail to pay to society for his crime.  He can say all the apologies he wants, but the law of the land demands it of him to serve his time in jail for his wrongdoing; otherwise everyone in the land will start killing each other for any stupid reason by simply apologizing afterwards.  Because there would be no law or reprimend that will follow after the crime to protect the citizens from killing each other.  The same law applies in the International tribunal law to the belligerent country who does mass killings, massacres and Genocides.  Otherwise, every country can go and kill all the minorities that come to their country as hosts for any reason at all, btw; different race, nationality, ethnicity or religion.  The same law that applies within a country for the citizens to act responsibly, then the International tribunal law comes to protect the minorities within the sovereign countries that they live as hosts of that particular country.   If not, then chaos will prevail around the globe and no one individual belonging to a different group of people with different religion, ethnicity or nationality of the host countries will be safe. 

    The Lausanne or the Kars Treaty is not a legal document on two accounts:
    (1) Kemal Ataturk was NOT assigned as the legal head of state of Turkey at the time of his signing the Lausanne Treaty.
    (2) The signatories on the Lausanne, Kars Treaty was signed solely by Kemal Ataturk and Stalin of Russia.  Armenia did not sign it.  Therefore they went over the head of Armenia and Armenia did not put her signature on it
    Therefore the Lausanne Treaty does not become a legal document.
    However the Sevres Treaty was signed legally by the European countries, by Russia, by Armenia and also by Turkey.  Todate, there is no other formal and a more legal document than the Sevres Treaty.  

  81. My above post was addressed to Zeki.

  82. Zeki,
     
    First of all, it’s up to all of us, collectively: me, you, other commentators, and moderators of this forum to decide whether or not a discussion should stop. If you convinced yourself in anything and are imperceptive to what others have to say, you can stop the discussion all alone from your end, but don’t tell me when and if the discussion should stop from our end. Fair enough?
     
    I wanted to avoid repetitions, but obviously I can’t. I never said there was a specific legal instrument compelling payment of Germany’s reparations. I said there was an international legal forum, the 1945-1946 Nurnberg international tribunal, whose indictments greatly facilitated the 1952 Reparations Agreement between West Germany and Israel. In other words, even though there was no specific legal instrument compelling Germany’s payment, there was a legal verdict condemning Germans for mass extermination and slave labor of the Jews. Therefore, German reparations were the consequence of such a verdict plus Germans’ ability to repent. I don’t disagree that the world Jewry might have mobilized for economic sanctions against Germany, but you miss the main point: before reparations started, German atrocities against the Jews were internationally condemned at Nurnberg. As an international law-based document, the Nurnberg verdict backed Jewish demands for reparations.
     
    You claim: “… nevertheless, the fact is UN Conventions are useless for retrospective applications of historical incidents.” I already explained that the UN Genocide Convention didn’t exist at the time of the Nurnberg tribunal or in the years of the genocide of Armenians. And, Zeki, next time you exchange views with the descendants of genocide survivors: Jews, Armenians, Bosnians, Rwandans, etc., do please have decency to call “historical incidents” by their proper name: crimes. If you think UN Conventions are useless for retrospective applications of crimes, go tell this to the drafters who specifically mentioned in Article I that the “prescribed punishment is not subject to the limitations of time and place.” Why haven’t Armenians done anything to get it retrospectively applied as yet, you ask? Becasue Armenia, as a subject of international law, only 19 years ago became independent. Whenever the time is right…
     
    You claim: “The historical fact that Armenian vilayets were never genuinely Turkish lands is a moot point, very hard to unwind hundreds of years of history.” Why? Why is it so hard to accept, based on historical evidence, that Turks were never in Asia Minor before the 11-12 centuries’ invasions of the Seljuks? What exactly is moot about this? Show me any Seljuk Turkish cultural edifice or a manuscript dating back to, say, 5th century AD. I’d be interested to know what your history books say about the origins of your nation, just out of curiosity… And, no, stating that Armenian vilayets were never genuinely Turkish lands is not “equivalent of getting into an argument with Sioux Indians in the U.S. or aborigines in Australia about the legitimacy of their territorial conquests,” because in life/social sciences there are notions defining various peoples as sedentary, autochthonous vs. alien, ecdemic. American Indians and Australian Aborigines fall under the first category, therefore no evidence exists that they ever carried out “territorial conquests” of the lands they now reside on.
     
    About the treaties… Do you normally do any research to support your views? I don’t imagine you doing research in Armenian sources, but in any non-Turkish sources? I mean, how much effort it takes to see that the Treaty of Kars of 1921 was signed between the Grand National Assembly of Turkey and the representatives of Soviet Armenia, Soviet Georgia, and Soviet Azerbaijan (all of which then formed part of the Soviet Union), NOT the independent Republic of Armenia, as at the signing of the Treaty of Sevres? Likewise, the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923. How much effort it takes to see that there’s no even mentioning of Armenia as a signatory to the Treaty and that the Treaty was signed by the USSR, now a non-existent state formation? And, no, the Treaty of Luasanne did not “legally terminate any successor rights and obligations to former Ottoman territories, treaties, debts etc.” There’s no provision in the Treaty that would state so. If you’re so passionate about treaties, one of the provisions specifically obliged Turkey to preserve cultural heritage of the Armenian civilization. How many undetonated, undesecrated, transformed to mosques or sheepfolds ancient Armenian monasteries, churches, religious seminaries, cross-stones, are intact in modern-day Turkey? And do please stay curious about why scholarly Armenians write pieces on the Sevres Treaty and then nothing but silence pops. Whenever the time is right…
        
    Re: The moral character [of the issue of the Armenian genocide] that, as you wrongfully claim, Turks have already recognized. Yes, Kemal called extermination of Armenians a “shameful act,” but he himself emptied pockets of remaining Ottoman Armenians and even advanced his army towards the Democratic Republic of Armenia—all BEFORE the establishment of the Turkish Republic and his words were addressed ONLY to the domestic audience, not to Armenians. Show me any evidence when Kemal, as the head of state after 1923, or any consecutive Turkish government officially offered an apology to Armenians (represented in the Diaspora, or in the Armenian Church, or as a part of the Soviet Union, or modern-day Republic of Armenia)? If, as you say, many Turks would be prepared to embrace this from a moral perspective, but political machinations prevent progress, then don’t you think something’s fundamentally wrong within your society? And they are not just “political machinations,” they are outright murders, threats, trials, convictions, and deportations of those who speak the truth about the genocide of Armenians. As for conciliatory voices in Turkey that are, as you say, being drowned out because the nature of the dispute has turned political/legal, I repeat my question again: before it turned political/legal, what prevented Turks in the course of 95 years to offer an official moral apology addressed to Armenians?
     
    For Armenians to reconcile with the Turks we need to know you repented. Apology will not only relieve us from the burden of victim complex, but will also help Turks to be rid of guilt complex.

  83. Thank you, Seervart, for this addition to the question of validity of the Kars Treaty. You’re right, although the Turkish side was represented as the “Grand National Assembly of Turkey,” Kemal and his buddies (Karabekir, Veli Bey, etc.) had no legal right to sign any treaty, because Article 7 of the Constitution of the Ottoman Empire at the time of signing particularly stated that only the Sultan had the right to conclude treaties with the powers. Kemal et al were just a bunch of outlaws at the time with no jurisdiction whatsoever to conclude international treaties. Only in 1923 was the Turkish Republic established and the Constitution of the Ottoman Empire was replaced with a new one. Same with all other signatories, neither the Russian Ambassador, nor any of the representatives of Bolshevik Armenia, Bolshevik Georgia, and Bolshevik Azerbaijan were authorized to sign international treaties because in 1921 they had no such authority: the Soviet Union came into being only in 1922.

  84. You are welcomed karo and I also thank you for your well informed essay/post above.  Surely you do know your subject matter very well.  Is it possible that you are a historian?  Nevertheless, you are truly well informed!!!!  Btw, Karo, you reminded me above what I already knew that Kemal Ataturk was indeed an outlaw at the time of his signing the Kars Treaty. Thank you for all your time and efforts of educating all of us in here.  Asdvads bahe kez!!!!

  85. Thanks for your kind words, Seervart. I’m not a historian, but I’ve done reading into the subject in order to be prepared to confront the Turks wherever I can, whenever I can, and however I can. This is the least I can do for the relatives of my grandfather mutilated and massacred in Diyarbekir.

  86. Karo,

    “And, no, the Treaty of Luasanne did not “legally terminate any successor rights and obligations to former Ottoman territories, treaties, debts etc.” There’s no provision in the Treaty that would state so.”

    Refer to:

    Article 58 - Turkey, on the one hand, and the other Contracting Powers (except Greece) on the other hand, reciprocally renounce all pecuniary claims for the loss and damage suffered respectively by Turkey and the said Powers and by their nationals (including juridical persons) between the 1st August, 1914, and the coming into force of the present Treaty, as the result of acts of war or measures of requisition, sequestration, disposal or confiscation.

    Article 60 – The States in favour of which territory was or is detached from the Ottoman Empire after the Balkan wars or by the present Treaty shall acquire, without payment, all the property and possessions of the Ottoman Empire situated therein.

    Article 62 – ….The other Contracting Powers agree to release Turkey from the debts for which she is liable on this account.

    Although Armenia’s signature is not on this document, it effectively overrides any other legal document conferring rights in relation to former Ottoman territories, debts, compensation. The main players being the British Empire and France by delineating the borders “from the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia, the frontier of Turkey is laid down….” (Article 3) dare I say, unjustly, sold the Armenians down the river without a paddle. Your anger should be directed to them. Realpolitik  suggests the time for recompense was back then, not now.

    And as for “do please stay curious about why scholarly Armenians write pieces on the Sevres Treaty and then nothing but silence pops. Whenever the time is right…”
    When will the time be right? In 10, 20 years? Keep in mind that every year Turkey’s population is growing by around a million people a year. I admire you for keeping the dream alive but at some stage you will need to accept the realities of the situation on the ground.

  87. God Bless you Karo for your thorough knowledge of history and facts… and thank you for definintely educating Zeki who knowns nothing it seems about the history except what his govt injected in him because how he writes presents evidence of so much Anti-Armenian feelings/expressions that I had to stop myself from really insulting his stupidity and ignorance…but thanks to you and Seervart, I calmed down after reading your comments…. I am just being honest and frank about this because my blood truly boils when I hear such inaccurate and hate filled statements from Turks who obviously are clueless about any of the history from before 1890 to 1924 to now….. Zeki is one example of such unfruitful human being including his fellow men and we all know them very well..

    Thank you again for the education…and being a gentleman after all the insults this Turk threw on us by presenting inaccurate/distorted/flat out lies…keep up the excellent work .. God Bless you.

    Gayane

  88. Look everyone, little by little, Turkey is slowly, but surely moving down the path toward recognition of the genocide and its crimes against the millions of native born Anatolian Armenians who helped, over many centuries, to build, support and create successive Turkish empires, from the Seljuk to the Ottoman. Face it - little of what took place in Anatolia could have happened without Armenian help, as Armenians were the majority population.  Centuries of Armenian contribution must be recognized and appreciated. Ultra-nationalists and their propaganda aside, I’m sure there are plenty of intelligent, educated and forward thinking people in Turkey who are just plain embarrassed by the criminal actions of a band of murderous, criminal rulers who overtook the Ottoman Empire and ran it into the ground. We can’t change history, we can only view it accurately and try to create a better, more just future. The reality is that genocide recognition, while difficult, will be the best thing that could happen to Turkey. It will be Turkey’s adult moment that will allow it to move forward, hopefully in a positive way, with its neighbor, Armenia and with all its citizens who are Armenian by background. Armenians, above all, want an apology, as a sign of civilization, and an honest, heart felt statement of ‘never again’. Once that happens, I really believe the rest will fall into place and a positive, new chapter can begin.  In psychology, it’s commonly recognized that the only way to truly overcome a problem is to first recognize and admit that a problem truly exists. The other reality is that it is very difficult for an oceanliner to change course in the open ocean…but, with slow, hard work, it can be done. Turkey is just such an oceanliner…so, be patient people…it will happen, gamatz, gamatz…but it will happen.   

  89. Zeki,
     
    Our righteous indignation is directed to the government of the nation that mass murdered, forcibly deported, burnt and buried alive, starved to death, mutilated, and converted to Islam millions of indigenous Christian Armenians in the course of 1894-96 and 1915-1923. Ottoman Turks are the physical perpetrators of the Armenian genocide, not the British or the French or the Germans. The Allies each has their own part of guilt, Germans, as Ottomans’ patrons, to the greatest extent. But at least Germans had the courage to “deplore the inglorious role played by the German Reich which, in spite of a wealth of information on the organized expulsion and annihilation of Armenians, has made no attempt to intervene and stop these atrocities.” (see: German Bundestag Printed matter 15/5689 15th electoral period June 15, 2005). France has unequivocally recognized the genocide of Armenians and enacted a law that would penalize the deniers, and, I’m sure, Britain will do so sooner or later in addition to condemnations of Britain’s prime-ministers and foreign secretaries testifying to horrors of race annihilation that they were aware of back in 1915.
     
    You want to believe that Realpolitik suggests the time for recompense was back then, not now? First, Realpolitik is not international law to suggest anything. Realpolitik is just politics based on practical and material factors rather than on legal, theoretical, or ethical objectives. Second, by the time the Lausanne Treaty was signed, there was no subject of international law called Armenia, because the country was forcibly incorporated into the USSR. Therefore, it’s unreal to suggest that the Contracting Powers “sold the Armenians down the river without a paddle.” The same Contracting Powers, dare I remind you, signed the Treaty of Sevres giving Armenia its lands and compensation for the indescribable physical and moral losses they endured in the hands of bloodthirsty Ottoman Turks. The same Contracting Powers assigned the task of drawing Armenia’s borders and extending America’s mandate on Armenia to the U.S. President. With Sovetization of Armenia in 1920 this was no longer possible and “selling Armenia” in 1923 is therefore a dead wrong concept.
     
    Whenever Armenians will submit the case to the international legal bodies based on the Treaty of Sevres is our business. You don’t have to worry if it’ll happen in 10 or 20 years. You have to worry that it’s been 95 years that Armenians and the civilized world expects an apology from Turks for their heinous crime. You should be troubled by the unrepentant character of your nation and the duplicity of your distortionist and denialist governments. Your argument for Turkish population growth reminded me of the mentality of your predecessors: Seljuks and Mongols. Invade, scorch, occupy, and colonize lands by hordes, by multitude. Population growth is a reality, but the existence of the Armenian Cause is a reality, too. It’s not a dream. Had it been a dream, it wouldn’t at the down of the 21st century attract the attention of foreign governments, parliaments, international organizations, human rights and advocacy groups, scholars, lawyers, and Nobel Prize laureates. If it was a dream, your government wouldn’t spent millions of dollars on blocking parliamentary resolutions accepting the fact of genocide and disseminating distorted history in the academia. The realities of the situation on the ground, except for Turkey’s population growth, is that the Republic of Armenia and independent Artsakh came into being again, however small and in infant stage they may be. Doesn’t Realpolitik that you brought up suggest that practical and material factors be taken into account? Then why do you emphasize Turkey’s population growth as the only factor? There are others and those others are not less determinant in the outcome than your population growth.
     
    Thanks for digging out Articles of the Lausanne Treaty that you think state unequivocally that they “legally terminate any successor rights and obligations to former Ottoman territories, treaties, etc.” In fact, if you re-read them carefully there is no explicit statement to that effect. Nowhere in the Treaty will you also find a clause that states that it supersedes the Treaty of Sèvres. Whether you employ Realpolitik or SurrealPolitik generally, or with regard to the Lausanne Treaty in particular, there is no Armenia as a signatory to the Treaty. Winston Churchill sadly remarked once: “In the Lausanne Treaty, which established a new peace between the Allies and Turkey, history will search in vain for the name Armenia.” Based on international law, the Treaty of Lausanne, therefore, has no validity to Armenians. While digging out articles to support your arguments, have you come across Article 42 that unequivocally states that as a signatory to the Treaty “The Turkish Government undertakes to grant full protection to the churches, synagogues, cemeteries, and other religious establishments of the [non-Moslem] minorities”? If the Treaty of Lausanne is so dear to you, how many, out of 3000 Armenian monasteries and churches, as well as scores of cemeteries, have you seen still standing intact in Western Armenian provinces while travelling to eastern parts of your modern-day republic?

  90. Wasn’t joking when I said Zaki should pay Karo for the wonderful lectures.                                   He most likely copied all of Karo’s factual writings for later use.
       In Turk schools they learned only in two or three pages,
    Armenians leaved outskirts of Turkish towns, they had sickness died and disappeared that is it!
      Ten years down the line they will come around try to sell us the idea that
    Hrant Dink was killed in Moscow that the Russians killed him.
    Just like Turks say well it was war Turkey lost 2,000000 Armenians only lost 1.5 Mil.
     They will NOT tell us that Turks lost (16) sixteen wars to Russia, that they were fighting
    Brits/French/all of the Slavic/Austria/Czechs/Hungary/Greeks/Arabs/ Bulgarians and more,

  91. Karekin –
     
    I’m pleased to see transformation of your views from “let’s forget everything and move on” to “Turkey [should] move down the path toward recognition of the genocide and its crimes against the millions of Armenians.” I only have to make the same correction again: there has never been a geographic toponym “Anatolia” before Turks invented it based on Greek “Anatolē”, i.e. “East” or “(Sun)rise”, and Turkified the term to “Anadolu.” The region has been known at all times as Asia Minor, which to the east is bounded by Armenian Highlands or Armenian Plateau. Therefore, to say “Anatolian” Armenians is absurd from both geographic and historical perspectives. Western Armenians or, at least, Ottoman Armenians, indicating the period in history when Armenians were under the Ottoman yoke, is the correct term.

  92. I agree with Karo in regards to Karekin.. I am glad to hear a different view from acting like a forgiving victim and forgetting about the Genocide and moving forward to more close to what we are fighting for… I agree Karo jan..

    Also, Karo I am humbled and just touched by your patience, intelligence and steadfast willingness to turn this Zeki person around to truly see and understand what history is all about.. what TRUE history is all about…. even though he still pushes his dodosh view points by making stupid comments like ” Turkey is growing in millions every year”.. like that will change anything we ar edoing…it is interesting because they do not realize that if they did not mass murder the ARmenian nation and Islamized the majority who survived, they would not grow this big now. If they left the Armenians alone, we would have been larger in numbers today …  I am sure majority of the people in Turkey probably have some % of an Armenian blood running through their veins..

  93. Hi Karo, you are welcomed.  You know, my maternal grandfather was born and raised in Severeg, Dikranagerd.  However in and around 1050′s his forefathers to escape from the invasion of Seljuk Turks, they left Nakhichevan their original homeland and migrated south to Dikranagerd.  His entire family were also annihilated from 1915-1923 excepting his one brother and one sister.  Everyone else were massacred by the Turks.

  94. Gayane jan, don’t let any Turk bring your blood pressure up or make your blood boil.  It’s not worth it.  Be careful of your health, you are much more valuable to us and to your cause, and they are not worth it.

  95. Chshmarit es Seervart jan.. shat chisht es… what makes me go on is people like you, Mjm, Karo, Katia, Boyajian and others who post here and share their views and strong love and knowledge toward their country, culture and history…… you are the pillars of our society and the fierce fighters for our cause.. and I Thank you and God Bless you all…

    G

  96. Do not wish to get in the way of the excellent class Karo is conducting for our Turkish guest Zeki.
    However, re: ‘ When will the time be right? In 10, 20 years? Keep in mind that every year Turkey’s population is growing by around a million people a year. I admire you for keeping the dream alive but at some stage you will need to accept the realities of the situation on the ground…’

    I’ll just post some numbers and notes, then fade away from this thread.
     
    - Zeki’s estimate of about 1 million increase per annum is correct: 2010 CIA estimate is about 1.3% increase per annum for Turkey.
    - However, he conveniently lumps everything under ‘Turk’ (although it was implicit, not explicitly stated by him)
    - There are an estimated  15-25 million Kurds in Turkey (depending on who is counting: lower number Western/Turk sources; higher Kurdish): they don’t consider themselves ‘Turks’.
    - The population growth rate of Kurds in Turkey is estimated at 3%-3.5%, about twice the rate of the general growth.
    - Iraqi Kurds are for all practical purposes an independent nation: how long before Turkey’s Kurds get the itch to link up ?
    - There are an estimated 2 million descendants of  forcibly Islamized Armenians: a tiny movement is just starting in Turkey of Armenians discovering their roots and converting back. Tiny movement for sure, but would have been unthinkable even a few years ago. Nobody can predict what will happen if this becomes a flood.
    - I have no data as to how many Islamized  Greeks or Assyrians there are in Turkey who are labeled as ‘Turks’.
    - Natural population growths and declines are never linear and neither grow forever, nor decline forever (absent external forces).
    - Demographic trends are not really as rosy for (real) Turks as Zeki implies.
    - Despite current problems, Armenia has very important demographic strengths, that will give us a strategic advantage going forward.
    - Geopolitical trends next several decades also do not favour Turkey as is commonly believed/promulgated by Turks, but that is a whole different discussion subject for another thread.
     

  97. Karo – please, let’s not waste time and verbiage splitting hairs on something as arcane and insignificant as geographic terminology. Terms change all the time. I think you got my essential point, isn’t that enough?  At the same time, take a good look at any modern map, not one that’s part of ancient history, because if you keep focusing on ancient history, you will find huge spans of time when nothing was designated as Armenia.  Today, as you know, there are many new entities that were never there before. So what? It’s important to use terms that have universal understanding.  Be happy that there is an azad Hayastan on the map today and if you really want something, you should be working on Armenia reuniting with Karabagh, and not focused on outdated geographic terms and designations (though, I will concede the Armenian plateau will always be accurate).  

  98. Avery… thank you for the data… truly beneficial for those like Zeki who does not know anything about anything and just sounds intelligent..

    Karekin- you were doing soooo well except you had to screw it up again by your last comment..

    I am with Karo 100%… you have to know the correct information regardless how old the information is.. if we do not share that Turks will never learn the true names and history Karekin jan… don’t ever underestimate old history and even if we need to split hair to get to our destination, then it shall be…

    God Bless

  99. Karekin … We know about ancient and modern maps also we split hair into many folds.
    We know that you’re Zaki 2 the only deference now is that you’re desperate and
    starting to use Armenian name.

  100. Gayane – perhaps we should use the Urartian or Hittite names, as they preceded the Armenian ones, or even better, find out what came before those?  The point is, it makes no difference. We don’t called Yerevan Erebuni anymore, do we?  all know what geography we’re talking about. The language used to reference it is not something worth arguing about here. There are much bigger fish to fry, I’m sure you realize that, as Khatchig’s title suggests. If, and admittedly, it’s a very big ‘if’, they actually attend a commemoration of the genocide, let’s think what that really means and how it could change the future. Let’s discuss how to bring them into our tent for open discussions, rather than slamming the door shut. Let’s see this as an opportunity for educational dialogue, rather than a chance to be vindictive. At some point, we have to change in response to change, if things are to move forward, rather than remain static and frozen in time.  Once a seed is planted, especially if it is placed into dry soil, you need to be patient to see it bear fruit, you need to harkel it to grow and blossom….it does not happen overnight. It requires care and nurturing. That said, I agree with you Gayane - the bottom line is that truth is unchanging and is on our side, and will prevail. But, we must help it along in the proper way for it to blossom.

  101. Karekin –
     
    Geographic terminology is not arcane and insignificant. In fact, it is very significant, especially in our case, to show to the Turks that their historical roots have never been anywhere close to Asia Minor. If geographic terminology were arcane and insignificant, why wouldn’t Turks leave important geographic placenames belonging to the Hittites, Ancient and Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians, unchanged? Why wouldn’t Christian Byzantine capital of Constantinople remain as such and not Turkified to “Istanbul”? Why wouldn’t Biblical Mount Ararat, as the whole world knows it, be Turkified to some “Agri Dag”? Because Turks know that those places were never Turkish. I could bring thousands of examples of artificial Turkification of original geographic and cultural names. It’s not about new entities that were never on the map before. It’s about the deliberate state policy of erasing or distorting anything that could indicate the origin of a place or a designation or a cultural edifice. Huge spans in history when nothing was designated as Armenia are explained by our tumultuous history when the country would be invaded and forcibly incorporated into invaders’ new state formation, but that doesn’t mean we ceased to exist in a geographic place where we lived for millennia. You say “It is important to use terms that have universal understanding.” Damn right. With this in mind go tell anyone that you climbed Mount “Agri Dag”, then share with us what expression you saw on that person’s face. Go tell anyone that you visited the ruins of one of the Seven Wonders of the World Temple in the town of “Selçuk” and see if you’re not corrected that the ancient city where the magnificent Temple of Artemis stood was always the Greek city of Ephesus. Likewise, with “Anatolian” Armenians. Go tell any scholar that you’re a descendant of “Anatolian,” and not Western or at least Ottoman Armenians, and see if you’re not corrected.
     
    And, Karekin, telling a person to work on something, anything, e.g. Armenia’s reuniting with Karabagh, or anything else, is inappropriate. It is up to me to decide where I can put my best foot forward to confront Turkish lies and denialism.

  102. To Karo:
    Names are certainly important and carry their own messages. But with all due respect  for your excellent contributions to this discussion, why do you say in your comment of Feb. 12 ”Thanks for your kind words. . . . This is the least I can do for the relatives of my grandfather mutilated and massacred in DIYARBEKIR” when I was raised to call it Dickranagerd and calling it Diyarbekir sticks in my craw? Some things can be taken too far.

  103. Correction: Karo’s comment that I referred to above was dated Feb. 15th.

  104. Diran –
     
    Simple. The comment you’re referring to popped up in the midst of heavy exchange of views with a Turkish commentator, although it was addressed to Seervart. I wanted Zeki to understand where my indignation is coming from, that is why I used “Diyarbekir” instead of Dikranagerd thinking he wouldn’t know where Dikranagerd might be. Some things can be taken too far, yes, but other things, if repeated many times, such as “Anatolian” Armenians or Agri Dag, run the risk of staying in one’s memory as equally correct to Western Armenians and Ararat.

  105. Karekin –
     
    If Armenians decide to use the Urartian names it won’t look like artificial, as in case of Turkification of genuine Armenian names, because according to one of the hypotheses on the origin of the Armenians, Urartians are believed to be members of proto-Armenian confederation of tribes. In other words, Urartians were not Aztecs whom Armenians invaded, colonized, and then Armenianized their placenames. They are believed to be part of our origin. As such, it does make difference. We don’t call Yerevan Erebuni, although we often use it in songs, literature, festivals, etc., because phonetically Ye-re-van is just a modernized pronunciation of E-re-buni. It’s nothing like Selçuk-Ephesus or AgriDag-Ararat paradigms. If the language used to reference is not something worth arguing about, then why nowhere in your comments in this or any other threads did you ever use Asia Minor instead “Anatolia”, Western Armenians instead “Anatolian Armenians”?

  106. Karo – I’m not disagreeing with your history, I know very well that Diyarbekir is actually Dikranagert and Elazig is actually Kharpert, and that Constantiople became Istanbul, etc, etc, etc. and I know why. It is the same reason why most cities and towns in North America have English names – many of them virtually identical to places in England – and not native Indian names.  Of course, the names we are familiar with are important to us and yes, it can be painful to hear new names applied, but to use the nomenclature we value outside of our community does not mean much these days. They are not on any maps anymore and are not recognized by the rest of the world. If I put my grandparent’s village name into my GPS, precisely nothing comes up. Should I get upset with the GPS?

  107. Bedros — Thanks much for your kind words addressed to me. It’s an obligation for every Armenian to advance the Cause. I’m just one of many like you and many others…

  108. Karekin –
     
    You’re posting comments in an Armenian-American forum. The prevailing majority of posters here are Armenians. The prevailing majority of them are descendants of the victims of the Armenian genocide. With this in mind, if you decide to use a proper geographical toponym, such as Dikranagert, Kharpert, Constantiople, Asia Minor or Armenian Plateau, rest assured, we will understand what you have in mind, because we are not “the rest of the world”, we are those, whose ancestors lived in those places from time immemorial.

  109. And so are you my dear Gayane.  You are also the pillar of our society and our people, and if you weren’t, we wouldn’t have this conversation now and you wouldn’t feel what we are feeling.  I think you are a wonderful human being and May God bless you too.  You know Gayane jan, afer both my parents passed away, I feel the torch of patriotism and worrying for our cause and to see it through that it is properly handled has been passed onto me.  They are gone now, but we are here for them and for ourselves, therefore we must make sure that the little land that it has been passed on to us from generations to generations it is well preserved and we will continue to own it through eternity.

  110.  
    Mr Zaki…which means clever
    You can’t compare American or Australian invasion and killing to saljuks invasion
    America was an empty land
    Whilst Anatolia was full of Art and Culture
    We were used worse than slaves…
    I would like historian Karo with his injured pen to add more.
    Sylva
     
     

  111. Sylva, please do not comment on issues you do not know about. You sound like a colonialist at best when you say things like “America was an empty land.” There were millions of natives living in America for thousands of years with a rich cultural and social life. 95 percent of them was killed or died from disease in the 400 years following Columbus’ arrival. We are talking about millions and millions of deaths. Shame on you, a fellow Armenian, for showing such insensitivity toward the fate of native Americans.

  112.   Her is another gung ho name ** Vartan l ** new one
    Trying to do the shame on you dance.. Things are getting desperate!

     Just because Sylva made this comment?
    February 13, 2011

    Count the massacres:
    Hemsin from eleventh century (1064)
    Hamidian (1894-1998)
    Adanaian(1909)**
    Scavengerian (1915-1923)
    Further Turkifications after the genocide of 1915
    And soundlessly…the second and third carried by Ataturk.

  113. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // February 18, 2011 at 11:18 am // Reply

    Vartan I never heard your name are you the grand-grand-grand…. son of Vartan Mamigonian?
    May be you are a turk by name of VARTAN
    Thanks for your comments…you did not understand my message.
    What i meant…America is a large place not like Anatolia small and well inhibited.
    I know Amercans how they killed red indians not far from Ottomas
    Thanks very much for insulting me.
    This is my last letter to this site
    I think I am wasting my time.
    Sylva
     
     
     
     

  114. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // February 18, 2011 at 11:45 am // Reply

    Vartan …How many comments you have on this site
    can you send to me .
    My letter was to Zaki and not to you …you induced your self to answer on his behalf
    without understanding the message…
    So you are some one else, and not Vartan…
    You can no longer cheat us …
    You are turk by the name of Kartan not Vartan
    Sylva
     
     

  115. avatar Random Armenian // February 18, 2011 at 12:55 pm // Reply

    Sylva,
    I’m sorry but that’s just outright wrong. the Americas were not empty. There were people living there, whose ancestors came at least 15 thousand years ago. There were major civilizations. People living in the plains. People living the the arctic regions. Are you really that ignorant of the history of the Americas?
    If you’re living in the US, then you’re the beneficiary of their destruction.
    This idea of “it was empty” is the attitude and justification put forth by conquerors.

  116. My dear compatriot Silva, you are so intelligent, creative, poet and a doctor – to top it off, every cell in your body is ultra Armenian and ultra patriotic.  Please do not let one man with the name of our Kachen Vartan; probably from the descendents of the Seljuk Turks to put a damper on your heart, or on your creativity.  I very well see your well thought out points. Yes the red Indians were massacred by the new comers Colonists, but certainly not the majority of the Indians.  The majority died from diseases that the new inhabitants brought it with them and unfortunately the Indians were not prepared and they didn’t even know what was happening to their bodies.  It was certainly not the same as in the case of the Armenians, when as you very well and justly put it, we were densed on the Highlands Plateau of the Western Armenian lands.  Ever since the Seljuk Turks came into our lands around 1050, Armenians haven’t seen anything else but killings, deaths, annihilations, abductions, rapes and the likes.  Meanwhile Armenians were the bread and butter of Turkey.  Armenians didn’t just simply die from diseases like the Indians have been.  But Armenians were targetted through 975 years of the Seljuk Turks’ arrival to have our nationality minized and to be pushed out completely.  Americans didn’t push out the Indians; yes they took over the American lands and the majority of the Indians died of diseases; but they didn’t systematically annihilated a whole race and then have them walk over the ocean to completely get rid of them, like the Turkish Ittihadists and before them Sultan Hamid the IInd annihilated us and made the rest of the civilians walk the death marches.  Only when half dead and half alive minorities arrived in Syria to call the Syrian government and authorities to kill every Armenian on site.  Yes the Ittihadist Talaat Pasha did that to the Armenians. 

  117. I am well aware as I already mentioned above that the new comers on American soil did kill some Indians and then took over their lands.  May I also remind the readers in here that the American President Obama just last year when he went to Turkey and spoke to the Turkish Parliament; he admitted the wrongdoings of his anscestors and he admitted, while suggesting to the Turkish people and government to do the same.  Suggesting to go ahead and admit what their predecessors did all the wrongdoings to other nationalities, having in his thoughts the Armenian Genocide.  Todate, when we are nearing 96 years of the Armenian Genocide, the Turkish government is denying, paying enormous amount of dollars to the American government to deny the Genocide and they have created Article 301 that it is against Turkishness to speak of the Armenian Genocide.  Americans are not doing all that.  To the contrary, they are admitting their wrongdoings with guilt.

  118. Not excusing the North Americas’ new arrivals who annihilated the Indians, however South Americans practically destroyed and killed all the Indians and then took over their lands.  Did they admit or apologized for their annihilation to the Indian race?

  119. It’s very refreshing to see that some people here have a deeper understanding of native American history, as well as the pain and devastation that was inflicted by the Europeans. At the same time, the vitriolic xenophobia that appears on these pages instead of intelligent discussion is disgraceful, uncalled for and unwelcome. Frankly, as an Armenian, it’s a huge turn-off. Despite my family’s history and loss, I was never brainwashed into hating Turks or anyone else for that matter. Quite the opposite. So, before throwing stones, be sure you don’t live in a glass house.

  120. Karekin,  I can only speak for myself and not for other posters on these forums; and so personally I do not hate the Turkish people, but find extreme fault and disregard in the Turkish denialist government and whoever or whomever that dares to speak as the mouthpiece of that government.  If you consider yourself as any sort of an Armenian, surely you would agree, understand and appreciate the same, otherwise I will doubt your Armenian ethnicity.

  121. avatar Lucin From, Buenos Aires // February 18, 2011 at 11:08 pm // Reply

    Karekin, Vartan I, and Zeki, are saying the same thing.
    You’re here only for distorting the truth,  

    Vartan I said Shame on you, to Sylva,
    Vartan I Shame on you for insulting Sylva, she is a good person.  

     Ottoman and Turks committed GENOCIDE onto Armenian Race.

     Sylva said;
    Hemsin from eleventh century (1064)
    Hamidian (1894-1998)
    Adanaian(1909)**
    Scavengerian (1915-1923)
    Further Turkifications after the genocide of 1915
    And soundlessly…the second and third carried by Ataturk.

    I think the Moderator should take a not of that and block them
    all from posting onto this discussion.
    When a message leave a PC sends a code with it so it would be
    very easy to trace the origin of that message

  122. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // February 18, 2011 at 11:51 pm // Reply

    Cowboys’ Films are enough to tell us the American history.
    Armenians are never illiterate …they feel with every nation.
    Do any of you knows about Bangali genocide 1971?
    Muslims killing muslims…same… Turks killing Kurds in this century…

    Tale of Darkest Night in Bengali Genocide

    I never knew poor Bengalis
    Had also their genocide
    Till I met a young gardener, Mubarak,
    Who spoke about all the details with a broken heart.
     
    Each time he demonstrated how
    Pakistanis killed their villagers,
    even those with white beards,

    How their militants raped most of the women,
    Leaving them pregnant, humiliated, speared.
    However they never killed pregnant women like the Ottomans did
    With Armenians—they were raped and escaped to have illegal sons.

    The gardener made me interested in their genocide.
    I read what I found till I understood the “slayers dine”!
    They started killing university scholars and their
    Students when they wanted to protect their teachers

    From military savages, scary and inhuman,
    Who wanted to vanish unarmed Bengalis,
    Impose their jungle rule on East Pakistan.
    This all was designed by the evil “Pak militants.”

    Stories of victims are many, unwritten yet.
    After I was Informed, I asked others; few knew about “slayers grade”!
    Bloodthirsty Pakistani army enjoyed and covered unpaid.
    Bengalis genocide named “deadly night”*still hidden unread.

    (C) Sylva-MD-Poetry
    2007
    _________________________________________________
    * The killing of Bengali intellectuals began at the night of March 25, 1971, in Dhaka and continued till the surrender of Pak army on December 14, 1971.This date is called ‘Martyred Intellectual Day.’ It is estimated that at least one and half million people were killed during the nine-month period. The genocide continued till 1975

  123. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // February 19, 2011 at 12:14 am // Reply

    Dear Lucin
    Thanks for answering on my behalf.
    I am sure who calls himself Vartan is a new comer…I can feel his unusal genes
    wants to revenge from someone who wrote a poetry book about all genocides.
    Forget about Armenians see what Turks are doing for Kurds…Kurds are kind people…
    If Vartan is a real Vartan, he could have answered me…
    because such people they change their name to revenge.
    I enter this side to learn more…
    Thanks Lucin once again and every one with a kind heart on this site…who is willing to teach
    with soulfulness.
    Sylva
     

  124. Seervart jan.. you are 100% correct in stating what you stated above.. excellent comments…

    Karekin- why do you insist on creating unpleasant exchanges among us on these pages .. i understand you have passion toward ARmenia but your comments are just…oh well.. does not matter… agghhhh.. and i thought you changed your tactics but it seems like nothing has changed… you also portray that we hate for the Turkish people.. we said this over and over.. we do not hate the people… it is the govt and what they do to the people….but then again, the people is the continuation of the govt and there are Turks who simply hate and want to harm ARmenians.. see below for some comments Ali made.. after reading such comments, you stop and think.. do the people really think and feel this way in addition to their poisoneous govt? maybe…maybe there are individual Turks like Ali who want to harm.. .really harm the Armenians…who have such hate that it blinds them and they express their hate by simply voicing them and threatening.. THAT my friend Karekin is UNACCEPTABLE, UNCALLED FOR and DISGUSTING AND DEVASTATING…

    Ali
    February 17, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    As long as this is about and the policy of the Turkish government is 100 percent correct. 
    And lest not kid ourselves it is about land.
    When I look at the EU all I see are bankrupt states, that is why it is not important to join anymore as it was in the early 2000s. So I rather keep my land and impose and suffocate Armenia. What was the population growth of Armenia this year? Minus 1000? 2000? 5000? Now our strategy should be to wait and when the time is right, liberate Armenian occupied lands in Azerbaijan. I am so looking forward to that day. But I also in the same time find it amusing that every year more Armenians come and spend their money in Turkey thus helping our economy. I mean we suffocate you economically and yet you come and spend your hard earned cash in Turkey. Pathetic.

    ali
    February 17, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Plus atleast we have European territories and are in most of the important European institutions. Can Armenia and failed Armenians say the same?

    ali
    February 18, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Avery eventhough we are hated, how many countries have acknowledged the Armenian genocide in the EU? And the ones that do how has their policy changed towards Turkey? And you are very right Muslims and Christians cannot live together. Here is another fact for you showing how much we need the EU, in 1991 France’s GDP was bigger than 5 times that of Turkey. Today it is just a bit bigger than two times that of Turkey. Go check the World Bank estimates for the Turkish GDP  for the years 2025 and 2050. So again yes in the past it was important to become a member, but is it really important today? And keep believing that Turkey is still wasting money and buying weapons from other countries, but I hope to god that Turkey and Armenia go to war. That way you can see firsthand our “non-existing” defense industry.

  125. Vartan 1, sorry to say but maybe you have not caught on or understand behind what Sylva was saying.. I for one GOT IT right away what she meant or referred by her comment and I am not many more got it tooo…Now why you did not get it and had to shime in with “shame on you” shame on this and that comment but that was just weird and out of the blue just like you…so please keep your expressions to yourself if you have nothing better than shame on you to write.. we have enough Turks doing the damage already we don’t need an Armenian (not sure if you are or not) doing the same…

    Have a great day sir..

    Sylva, i love your poetry and you my dear sister…

    Gayane

  126. Karekin –
     
    In major part, this thread was an exchange of views between me, Seervart, and other commentators and a Turkish person (or a committee of persons) calling him- or herself “Zeki” about his allegations that Armenians have positioned the genocide recognition as a legal and political, rather than a moral issue. All of Armenian commentators, myself included, attempted to present arguments that had Turks offered a moral apology in the course of 95 years, our reconciliation could have taken a different turn, and that it is because of Turkish denialism and distortion of historical facts that the issue has turned legal and political. Where in the world have you found any clause, a hint, or a suggestion that this intelligent discussion has anything remotely resembling “vitriolic xenophobia”?! And where in the world has any Armenian poster here showed signs of being “brainwashed into hating Turks”?! What is your criterion of determining whether or not an Armenian is “brainwashed into hating Turks”? If I, for one, decide to engage in an exchange of views with a Turk in a non-derogatory manner to confront his or her arguments or a vision of history, does it qualify me to be “brainwashed into hating Turks”? In other words, whoever has different opinion form that of a Turk, in your view, suffers from “vitriolic xenophobia that is disgraceful, uncalled for and unwelcome”? Do you consider yourself a person with sober mentality? Besides, if you were raised in a family environment where you were taught to love Ottoman Turks, aren’t you capable of admitting that there are many, many more families who, having endured humiliation, theft, starvation, tortures, witnessed mass murders, mutilations, conversions, and destruction of property and cultural heritage, may be of opposite opinion? Does being raised in a particular environment qualify you to be more objective than others? I’m sorry but it’s generally called “narrow-mindedness”…

  127. Dear Gayane, You happen to have a sweet heart and I truly appreciate all your justified comments and your input on these columns, for it is not only about Armenianness but it is also about the truthfulness on whatever subject matter you find yourself writing about.  Abris janig!  I am so glad that you demonstrated at how a Turkish Ali thinks and writes which is part of his hateful soul towards Armenians and towards mankind in general it seems.  We both know that he is the outcome of his denialist Turkish government and he is obviously very well trained by them.

    @Karekin,  After seeing again what Ali wrote and I am sure the other Turks that come in lurking and writing anti-Genocidal denialist comments; now pray tell who is demonstrating the vitriolic xenophobia that appears on these pages instead of intelligent discussion that is disgraceful, and that is uncalled for and unwelcomed.  It seems to me, that if we spoke pro-Turkish and kiss the Turks’ feet however they demonstrated denialist Turkish thoughts and outbursts, would have been very intelligent and very welcoming from us by you!  Now this seems to me for obvious reasons.

  128. Karo, Thank you one more time dear compatriot, for writing on this column and bringing out the absolute truthfulness of the matter of our sober discussions in here to Karekin and his non-objective views and unfortunate outbirsts.

  129. Zeki, Karekin, and Vartan I,
    Knowing the main one of you, or all three of you going to be here,
    Likewise I am here as long as it taks, about the GENOCIDE!
    Check these out.  http://www.ozurdiliyoruz.com/    
    http://www.armenianow.com/genocide/22501/turkish_scholars_genocide_apology

  130. Parev Bedros,  A great deal of the intellectuals and some Turkish people know the truth and what transpired in their country from 1915 and beyond; however unfortunately it’s the government that counts, as they are the ones that are creating laws and seeing through about everything that goes on in their country.  If the Turkish government however is not about to change in the near future with their denialist regime, then no matter how many intellectuals and people are sympathetic towards the Armenian Genocide, nothing can or will be done unfortunately.

  131. Unfortunately, it seems a good many people on here, most of whom are Armenian, feel the need to bludgeon their fellow Armenians with ‘genocide’, and other insinuating comments, over and over and over again. Yes, of course I get, I’ve gotten it my entire life, I am not challenging the genocide – get it?  Why would I?  It is NOT NEWS!  What I challenge 1) is preaching the same broken record over and over again, like a parrot, to a choir that already knows the score, and 2) adopting an endlessly pugilistic approach anytime anything related to Turkey or Turks comes up. For a bunch of people who want recognition, acknowledgment and respect, I don’t see a lot of it here and I don’t see a civil tone towards your adversaries. If you want to bring them to our side, using a sledgehammer is not the way to do it, believe me.  Worse, Armenians on this forum, are often as abusive of their own (calling them ‘Turks’, as if that’s an insult), it seems, as they are of others. No dissent, no discussion, no outside the box thinking is allowed. Sorry, but just because I’m Armenian does not mean I need to tow your or anyone else’s line. I can think and speak freely, thank you – and as someone said, I don’t need your permission.
    In physics, we know that for every action in the universe, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is why non-violent protest can be so powerful. It does not create the conditions that require a violent response. I would like to suggest that adopting a more non-violent tone vis-a-vis Turkey might result in a better response than an endless barrage of angry commentary.  I think most Turks and Turkey know that many Armenians are angry and hold a major grudge and have a huge chip on their shoulders. That too, is not news and need not be reported or exhibited endlessly. It’s really demeaning. The question is, how can this be overcome?  If Turkey chooses to send people to Armenia to commemorate the genocide, I think it should be applauded. Isn’t that one more step toward what we all want?  Encourage the process, slow as it may be….Rome was not built in a day.
     
     

  132. I didn’t make out to whom you, Karekin, addressed your most recent (Feb. 19) post? Was it in response to questions I posed in the comment starting with “In major part…”? You just made a generalization; it suggests that you don’t really have answers to my questions. But I’ll repeat. Why engaging in an intelligent, civil, and non-discriminatory discussion with a Turkish commentator (in my comments it was based exclusively on factual, legal, and historical facts; no anger, no derogation, as I hope you could see above) is considered “preaching the same broken record,” “adopting an endlessly pugilistic approach,” and an expression of rude tone “towards our adversaries”?! Didn’t you advocate educating Turks (however unrealistic I personally think it may be) to encourage and foster the process of mutual understanding? Then why a calm, fact-based exchange of views is considered “using a sledgehammer” and “endless barrage of angry commentary”? What do you want Armenians to do to please the Turkish ears, Karekin? To apologize to the Turks for annihilating almost entire Turkish population of Asia Minor, stealing two thirds of their ancestral homeland in Mongolian steppes, destructing their cultural heritage (if any such heritage can at all be found), and forcibly converting their women and children to Christianity? What do you personally do to “invite them on our side”? Share your experience… Tell them what THEY want to hear? That genocide never happened, that 2-2.5 million of human beings of Armenian origin just happened to disappear into the thin air, and Armenians are bashing poor, compassionate, and highly-tolerant Turks for nothing? Give me just one example of what “non-angry commentary” and “non-violent protest” do you personally apply “to invite them on our side.” Be precise and avoid adages, please…
     
    P.S. Since you touched on physics (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction), indicate in strict sequence which side made an action to which the other side is reacting? Since you also touched on history (Rome wasn’t built in a day), indicate what do you want Armenians to do until it’s built and how many more decades you want Armenians to wait until it’s built?

  133. Karekin,

    The writer of this article is doubting Turkey’s “good faith” intentions and the reasons behind it for sending some of their officials to Armenia to attend the Genocide Commemorations.  He has very good reasons to doubt as we do also, when we all remember from last September 2010 the demease of the protocols and how it fell through by the Turkish government, and it was apparent that the protocols was created to derail the Genocide acceptance by the U.S. and for Obama not to utter the word Genocide?  The Turkish government seem to continuously change their minds and speak from both ends of their mouth; whatever pleases them for the moment to have the U.S. derail from the Armenian Genocide to be accepted by the United States Senate and Congress and also for Obama to accept and or utter the word Genocide.  If you have followed the news, you will be aware by now the dirty political games that Turkey along with the U.S. are continuously playing with us.  Turkey’s government along with the U.S. have created the protocol ordeal to have America say to the world and any of their senators that speak for the Armenian Genocide, that Armenia and Turkey are now trying to mend fences “therefore no one should bud in“, and that’s exactly what they did.  Can’t you see the real politik that is going on?  Now that the protocols haven’t been successful “thanks to the government of Turkey”, Mr. Mouradian is justly saying that the time is nearing April 24, and here comes another plot to derail the USA to accept the Armenian Genocide to be accepted in their Senate and Congress, and also for Obama to utter the word Genocide by Turkey sending a few of their officials as if in good faith, so that they’ll say to the world that Turkey is sending those officials to Armenia in good faith to as if to mend fences with us.  I mean, please reread Mouradian’s message and try to digest it.  Anyone that half heartedly follows the news would know where Turkey and the U.S. are coming from and why most of us including Mr. Mouradian is justly apprehensive about it.

  134. Actually Mr. Mouradian rightly stated above that it is Washington who needs a fresh excuse and Turkey is providing it by sending a few officials to lay wreaths on Genocide Commemoration day; however it is likely that the (AK) Party is locked for a struggle for votes and due to their pressure might force it to abandon the plan.

    Basically Karekin, it’s all a plan of dirty political games between the U.S. and Turkey.  It seems as though you are trusting their motives at face value; but it’s all a game on Turkey’s part and we are not buying it.  Turkey continues to deny the Armenian Genocide, they are continuing to send millions of dollars to U.S. Congressmen and Senators so that the Armenian Genocide Resolution will not pass year after year and Turkey continues to put forth with their Article 301.  As much as we are wishful about it, I don’t think Turkey or the U.S. will change their tactics in the near future.  

  135. Ehhhh Karekin… du qo eshnes qshum.. inch asem..

    Seervart jan.. you are the best.. Karo el xosq chunem.. du mer partsanqnes…Apres…

    Gayane

  136. Karo, you are right on target!
    Karekin, I am playing the world’s smallest violin for you.  I am all for thinking outside the box but you are still an enigma to me.  You find fault with Armenians who calmly and rationally debate with Turks here and accuse them of belligerence and xenophobia.  What concrete and specific plan to bridge the divide between Turks and Armenians do you recommend instead?

  137. To Bedros and Karekin:  Just when I thought this discussion was sputtering to a rancorous, petty and inconclusive end, you came along and brought us all back to the main subject: Turkish officials supposedly on the verge of attending Armenian Genocide commemorations. Thank you! Despite that, I have to take exception to your core position, especially the extremely demeaning idea that Armenians have a ‘big chip’ on their shoulder. A statement like that is not only gratuitously heartless but totally inconsistent with a serious understanding of the scale of monstrosity of the Armenian Genocide, its historical implications, and its sustained, consistent, systematic and carefully financed denial by the Turkish state since the successful completion of the project under Ataturk.
    As I said early on, if the Turkish government were planning to send officials (not ‘people’, Karekin) to Genocide commemorations (something which seems bizarre, as Mr. Mouradian indicates), it would only be to sow discord and advance the pseudo-humanitarian notion of “two nations, one catastrophe”, certainly not to go back to Ankara with their vocabulary suddenly changed, recognizing, taking responsibility for and talking about the Armenian Genocide per se.
    Orin Baskin, one of the gurus of the “Great Catastrophe/Apology” movement, is no doubt a sincere man pursuing what he thinks is best 1. for Turkey and 2. for Armenians. If Armenians can be convinced of the validity of his movement, then he will have solved a great problem for his nation, i. e. removing one of the several ‘zombies’ (as he likes to say) that bedevil its peace and tranquility and reduce its chances of joining the European Union. For that to happen, the ‘tape’ of the Armenian genocide refrain must be silenced once and for all. If his motives were otherwise, then he would as a responsible intellectual and at whatever personal cost follow the courageous example of individuals like Ragip Zarakolu, Taner Akcam, and his old friend Hrant Dink, cutting through all the self-serving distortions of the Turkish state to simply say GENOCIDE. As it stands, the “Great Catastrophe/Apology” movement offers the vacillating leaders of the ‘great powers’ , such as the president of the United States, a ready-made, pseudo-liberal vocabulary for sidestepping the reality of the Armenian Genocide when occasion arises. It  is a wide gate and a broad road leading directly to the final burial of the Armenian Genocide as an issue in world and Turkish history. The ticket through the gate will be offered free of charge to any Armenian wishing to pass through. The only cost will be the agreement to falsify the circumstances under which their dynamic culture and society and hundreds of thousands of their innocent ancestors were suddenly erased from their historic homeland after a presence of three thousand years or more.

  138. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // February 20, 2011 at 9:03 am // Reply

     
    from the book of the author,
    Viscount Bryce
    The treatment of Armenians in Ottoman Empire 1915-1916 (1972) page 86
    “ The shortest method for disposing of the women and children concentrated in the various camps…was to burn them. Fire was set…and these absolutely helpless woman and children were roasted to death…the executioners who seem to have been unmoved by this unparalleled savagery, grasped infants by one leg and hurled them into the fire, calling out to the burning mothers : “Here are your lions.”
    Turkish prisoners who had apparently witnessed some of the these scenes were horrified and maddened at remembering the sight.

  139. If, as many people have noted, this forum is read primarily by those in the Armenian community, then why do we need to keep reminding ourselves that there was a clearly verifiable Armenian genocide?  I know of not one Armenian on the planet who does not know this or does not have some personal connection to it. So, my comments relate to us, not to them. I do agree that the education effort toward Turkey and Turks is valuable, necessary and important, but will reiterate, that just like any kind of education, needs to be done in properly, so it will be received, remembered and fostered. A visit to Dzidernagapert and museum might be a very good mandatory start.  However, we need to realize that the learning curve for non-Armenians can be rather steep. Couple this with some level of disbelief (or outright denial), it can be a difficult, but not impossible hurdle to overcome.  Yet, even with all the facts in the world, is it possible to get non-Armenians to truly empathize with Armenians on the genocide? Can they be made to feel similarly about our losses?  That might be a worthwhile goal, but even if someone has facts and education, does that mean they can also develop feelings?  I suspect alot of what we discuss in this regard has a silent, but key component, that influences not only how we think about the genocide, but how we discuss it, convey it and have expectations of others about it. All the education in the world will not inculcate true empathy, as it cannot be taught nor forced onto anyone.  In practice, most people often do things because they feel or know it is in their best interests. Perhaps a better way to approach this is to add an important benefit to Turkey’s coming clean on the genocide…that it will benefit their national psyche, improve their relationships with the rest of the world and remove the stigma that accompanies the title of ‘genocidal nation’, as there is deep shame related to this admission. So, a focus on the plusses, instead of the negatives might be best for both sides. I think that is what certain Turkish intellectuals are attempting to do, and we should do all we can to encourage them on that path.  Disengagement is not an option if we are to reach our long term goals.

  140. From the book of the author who’s son translated some scripts into English,
    Minas Der Sarkissian

    “Minas endured the 1922 the burning of Smyrna and the annihilation of more than 100,000 Armenians by the order of Kemal Ataturk, then he had the Greek nationality annihilated.  Minas was a high ranking officer in the Turkish army during and in the aftermath of the 1915 catastrophe of the annihilation of the Armenians – the Armenian Genocide.  In 1922, the Turks have exiled him with hard labor for over a year and a half.  He changed his name to a Greek name to be able survive, to Mina Mavromatis.  While the Turk gendarmerie were transporting their victims who were exiled from one place to anyother; one of the many incidences that happened is written below.”  Seervart

    As we descend the other side of the hill, and we get within 50 paces from the river, which I assume to be either the Gediz or the Keutchouk Mendereh, the officer yells, “Now you can rest for a little while; just look at the water but don’t you dare approach the river”.  The convicts in desperation plea for mercy, “Chawoush Effendi, please let us at least wet our lips, in the name of Compassionate Allah”.  The officer answers, “Allah is at the tip of this bayonet, and He will punish you if you dare approach the water”.  Thus powerless we swallow our dry saliva, and keep staring at the fast flowing river, pinned down motionless.

    Like a bolt a young man of about 18-20 emerges out of our group and darts to the river to drink from the water.  A guard without uttering a word fires two bullets killing the lad instantly.  From the rear a man in his 40s, witnessing the inhumane incident, runs screaming, “I lost you my dear son”, and jumps into the river and lifts the still warm motionless body.  Carrying his son over to the guard who did the shooting, the father contemptuously shouts, “This world that you claim to be yours will not last long, just as the tyrants who came before you had lost it all, your turn will come next.  Why are you all just standing there?  If you are so brave, drop your guns and one by one come and challenge me unarmed, but if you’re all cowards, as you all are, then empty your bullets in my chest as well”.  Sure enough receiving a hail of fire the father, still embracing his blood-drenched son, disappears leaving only a large puddle of blood to float down the river.  Later I found out that father and son were Armenians from the Nazilli region.

    I have sworn if I live through this, I shall always cherish the memory of my fallen Armenian brothers; I shall keep their revenge alive with me through writing their stories, and pass them along with the torch of freedom of our lands to all Armenian generations.

    By Minas Der Sarkissian – From the book of Izmiri Angoume Yev Ayl Echer.

  141. Minas was my grandfather.

  142. Dear Seervart – I was overwhelmed by emotions reading this… We will win this. The Ottoman Turkish evil will be punished, one way or the other, sooner or later… Keep faith!

  143. Karekin,
    The best way to benefit Turkey’s ‘national psyche’ is for its leaders to simply admit Turkey’s responsibility for the Armenian Genocide and live with the consequences rather than foster a movement that gives the illusion it is bringing Turkey closer to that admission when the opposite is true. All that movement does is give the denialist Turkish government more wiggle room to go on denying. Built into that movement is the patronizing attitude of its promoters that it would be wisest for them and Turkish state interests to offer some form of psychological therapy to the hopelessly neurotic Armenians and quiet them down. No. Let these great liberal intellectuals have the courage of their convictions and confront the facts of history, then we can talk about empathy and all those other good things.

  144. Karekin –
     
    You may certainly have a point. But I still fail to see how an intelligent, civil, and non-discriminatory historical, factual, and legal evidence-based discussion with a Turk can be viewed as “preaching the same broken record,” “adopting an endlessly pugilistic approach,” “using a sledgehammer,” “endless barrage of angry commentary,” and an expression of rude tone “towards our adversaries”? You avoid answering one plain question jumping from one subject onto another. And we don’t “keep reminding ourselves that there was a clearly verifiable Armenian genocide.” We know this firsthand. We raise the issue because, as you can see here, from time to time a Turk pops up on these pages attempting to deny, distort, or derail the Cause. If you choose to remain silent, that’s your right. Be silent and watch how “remorseful” and “compassionate” Turks will admit the guilt if no one reminds them of it and demands an apology for it. Good luck… Most of Armenians don’t buy this, because they know the nature of the Turks well. There’s no doubt in my mind that recent minor Turkish overtures to Armenians are the result of our demands for justice advanced internationally, not our silence. Were Jews silent for forty years before the Holocaust was recognized and apologized for in the early 1970s? Are they silent even now having their catastrophe internationally accepted and being paid reparations?

  145.    To Diran;
     You’re opinions are yours and my statements, Just because Turkey is sending
    two low level Turkish officials for commemoration of the Armenian Genocide

    ((((PM of turkey on his knees begging for forgiveness from all of the Armenians; the World  for the GENOCIDE Turks and Ottomans committed, Just as in 1970: Chancellor Willi Brandt got down on to his knees to lay a wreath in honor of the victims of the Nazi holocaust))))
    on April 24Th. Armenians w/all their friends Nations
    will be celebrating World wide, this will show to those deniers that how far we
    have come just in few short years
    [we have made the internet work for us]
    that Turkey has to go on spending Billions to deny the Genocide.

    “” Cutting pregnant women’s stomach removing the baby tossing the
    baby in to the air for a bayonet practice ””

     How could babies be considered enemies?

  146. Karekin did you read the comments written by Ali… ???? why you insist it should be Armenians who need to extend their understanding and humble arms toward Turks.. why can’t THEY, the actual murdereous country’s descendants take the first step.. you don’t go and ask the murdered family to go apologize to the murderer do you? so why do you expect us to do that?? I just dont’ get your mentality and thought process…

    Seervart jan… i was crying when I read the story of your grandfather.. my great grandfather experienced such autrocities when his family was slaughtered and he never saw them again… as Karo said… the day will come when all the souls that were brutally murdered will rest once and for all because Turkey, the blood stained country will pay for her aweful acts…

    Karo jan- excellent comment….

  147. Dear Karo, All your comments above were excellent.  It isn’t our silence that will get the Turks to admit their crime today or in the future; but working towards getting the Armenian Genocide accepted will.  In Armenian we say, “chelatsogh mangan gat chen dar”.  When a child does not cry, no one shall provide milk to him or her.  And the matter of the Jews is a very good point Karo.  To this date, they speak over the media, they educate the students in high schools and colleges about the Haulocaust, and yet they had closure; we are still waiting for our closure, as we have beein waiting now for over 95 years.

    Dears Karo and Gayane, I didn’t mean to give you teary eyes; but like that father and son; so many fathers, sons, mothers and daughters were annihilated and put to death in a similar and even in a worse fashion.  More than 1.5 Millions of them.  Yes Karo jan, we will see the day when the Armenian Genocide shall be accepted by Turkey and reparations will be made to have our historical homeland given back to us, Armenians.

  148. Dear Seervart:
    The moving story related by your grandfather certainly clarifies the reason for the personal passion clearly visible in many of  your posts.
     
    I will most certainly obtain the book (either in  English or Armenian).
    Thanks for sharing.

  149. Correction of my Feb. 12 comment: Orin Baskin should have been Baskin Oran. A very interesting and revealing interview with him can be found at:
    http://www.baskinoran.com/roportaj/Oran_Web-Khatchick%20Mouradian-Armenian%20Weekly.pdf

  150. Of course, I agree w/ Diran, that an official apology from the Turkish establishment would work immense wonders. Slowly, but surely, I believe that day is coming. Some of you may not, but let’s face it, they can’t avoid truth and history forever. Historical myths, such as the ones created to demonize Armenians for creating ‘civil war’ or ‘stabbing the empire in the back’, will ultimately be exposed as lies, but WE have to help create the atmosphere that will foster that kind of open discussion and exposure. Unfortunately, I think alot of people (incorrectly) see this as a zero sum game, where the only way for Armenians to ‘win’, will be for Turkey to lose on an equal basis. But this is not and cannot be a zero sum exercise.  Instead, I think Armenians would do well to seek a win-win outcome, even though they reject it conceptually. It really is the only way us to get what we want. 

    Regarding the idea of ‘forgiveness’ and non-violence, I often think of the Amish response to the murderer who killed a group of young girls a few years ago because I feel there is a serious lesson to be learned in that tragedy for all of us, particularly for those who see themselves as being more Christian than others. With that in mind, it might be helpful to read this moving and thoughtful account:  

    http://www.friendsjournal.org/forgiveness-amish-lesson-rest-us

      

  151. Dear Avery,
    I have asked the moderators to provide you with my e-mail address.
    You can contact me and I’ll provide you with the info. on the books.
    Best,
    Seervart

  152. Karekin,
    I respect your pacifist convictions, but you might as well forget about Turkey some day officially recognizing the Armenian Genocide if you think the Amish approach will work. If Turkey has callously denied its crime for a century it will easily deny it for another century in the absence of vigorous pressure. There is nothing in the history of Turkey to suggest it has the least vulnerability to appeals to reason or  promptings of conscience such as you propose as the path to genocide recognition.

  153. thanks Seervart

  154. I second Diran’s thoughts in that Turks “foster a movement that gives the illusion it’s bringing Turkey closer to the admission [of guilt] when the opposite is true.” It is only after confronting the facts of history by the Turks can we talk about empathy and rapprochement.
     
    Karekin, as you yourself admitted, Turks and Armenians were not involved in some kind of a “civil war” or “military standoff” where Turks were on the one side and Armenians on the opposite. Had Armenians and Turks represented two warring parties fighting on the opposite sides of the trenches or antagonistic societal strata engaged in a civil strife from the opposite sides of the barricades, then, I agree, the reconciliation between them shouldn’t have been seen as a zero sum game where the only way for Armenians to win would be for Turks to lose on an equal basis. But you (deliberately, I suppose) miss the most important point. Turks and Armenians were neither parties to a war nor two antagonistic societal strata in a civil strife. Armenians were minority citizens of the same country whose government premeditated and executed a policy of physical and cultural extermination of its subjects based on ethnic, national, and religious characteristics of that minority. This is not a war or a civil strife. This is a CRIME that came to be classified by the international law as Genocide. As with any crime, there is and cannot be a “win-win outcome”, because in any crime there are victims and there are murderers/perpetrators. The only outcome to a crime is either a voluntary apology of a murderer to a victim or a verdict that would enforce such an apology. Your “win-win solution” plays into the hands of the murderer-state, because it creates an impression that both Armenians and Turks were equally responsible, whereas the world knows this is not true. It was a unilateral atrocity on the part of the Ottoman Turks, and as such, Turks will have to unilaterally apologize to us. If your notion of a “win-win outcome” is correct, tell me what is it that Armenians were involved in against the Turks that we need to accept such a scenario?!
     
    As for Christian postulates of forgiveness and non-violence, I think you should be the least expected poster here to touch on them because of a slander of Christ in your past comments. It definitely makes you neither more Christian nor less Christian. In fact, such a vilification makes you no Christian at all. Forgiveness doesn’t mean we should “waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you.” — Matthew 7:6.

  155. Karekin,
    I also respect your Christian and pacifist convictions; but as much as I am and try to be a good Christian, I have been saying it all along and I’ll say it again as Diran also mentioned it above, that your pacifist approach will never work with the Turkish government.  We have to continue to show them political maturity, knowledge and strength; otherwise it won’t work with them.  I wish it would, but I know better that it will not.

  156. Dear Karo, Your latest post above was much more fitting and justified addressed to Karekin, especially when he attacked on very sober posts’ of our dialogue with a Turk named Zeki; Yours, mine, Gayane’s and others in here that were basically attacked by Karekin and which was uncalled for, unjust and completely wrong on his part.  He demonstrated a behaviour coming practically from the Turkish government or a complete sympathizer of the Turkish government.  Notice I am not saying a Turk but the Turkish government.

  157.  Karo;
    You have an excellent way of putting everything in one sequential order, enjoyed reading it

    Slight addition; taxpaying citizens

    ((Armenians were minority citizens of the same country whose government premeditated and executed a policy of physical and cultural extermination of its subjects based on ethnic, national, and religious characteristics of that minority))

  158. avatar Sylva-Md-Poetry // February 21, 2011 at 7:44 pm // Reply

    Thanks for every one who contributed to this site…We learn from you all.
    Karo…you knew how to answer the denaialist…we are gratful to your time and grammatical paragraphs.
    Please karo few days ago you wrote something about Ataturk that he almost recognized what Turks did for Armenian later he invaded even east Armenia.
    Thanks
    Sylva
    I searched that sentece but I could not find.
    Is it your phrase or cautation please send to me if you can once again, i want to use it in my publication.
     

  159. Karekin, I know a priest who was a speaker at an April 24th commemoration several years ago, who was severely ridiculed for speaking about the healing power of forgiveness and the need for Armenians to extend this forgiveness to Turks (for our own good).  I thought he was a very brave fellow for asserting this controversial viewpoint and I admired his commitment to his faith.   Perhaps he was ahead of his time, perhaps you are, too.  I know this a very hard concept for most of us, myself included.
     
    I read the link you posted about the Amish lack of vengeance toward the man who murdered the school girls and was touched by the inherent humility that must exist in a person in order to recognize that as humans we are all sinners in need of forgiveness…”there but for the grace of God, go I….” Clearly this is the act of someone well-instructed by their religion to respond to evil with a merciful and loving spirit at all times.
     
    But the key difference in this case is that the forgiveness was directed to an individual; a known and undisputed perpetrator.  And the Amish didn’t have to deal with the insult of denial or the accusation that the girls brought it upon themselves.   How does one forgive an unrepentent government?  Who exactly do we direct this forgiveness to?  And for what do we forgive them?Those Turks who are living today are not the ones who committed the genocide.  These Turks are guilty of denial, distortion and resistance to facing the truth.  Do we forgive them for lack of human empathy?  Do we excuse their ignorance and lack of education?  Do we turn the other cheek when they invoke Article 301 or use the label ‘Armenian’ as a slur?  How do we begin down this path toward forgiveness?  How do you forgive when the original crime is not yet over, but continues on a daily basis as Armenians lose their mother tongue, as their history and artifacts are rewritten and destroyed forever and their ancestors await a proper burial.  This is so complex, please don’t arrogantly over simplify this and suggest that those who are not in the same head space as you are xenophobes.  It’s just not that simple.

  160. Ananoon – I take your comments and questions very serioiusly. So, please don’t think that this is just a cavalier push towards an unattainable, worthless goal. Of course, total, unrestrained forgiveness may be out of reach as a concept for some of us at this point in time. I can’t say that I’ve totally forgiven either, but I do believe it is an important goal worth working towards. And, as I’ve said before, a sincere, deep national apology from Turkey will do wonders and will open many doors. That said, I suspect the der hayr you mentioned knows something about the power of these actions. I’m sure he also had a good number of family who perished in Turkey, like all of us, for no other reason than they were Armenian. Yet, he preaches about the power of forgiveness. I’m sure at the base of his teaching is that we are all human beings, actual incarnations of God, and as such, deserve respectful treatment, love and forgiveness.

    Maybe the issue for those in the diaspora, is the feeling that there is nothing to lose by shunning Turkey, Turks and anything Turkish?  The canyon between diasporan Armenians and the land of their ancestors is huge and for most, there is no reason to try and close the gap. But, discovering your roots is a key part of identity. While we can go to today’s Armenia, it is not quite the same as visiting your family’s village in historic Armenia, aka, Turkey. Of course, we are all free to visit Turkey, as well, as many do, to track down our roots. Several prominent Armenians lead tours there on a regular basis. But yes, most choose not to go, citing historic grievances.  

    You ask: How does one forgive an unrepentent government?  Who exactly do we direct this forgiveness to?  And for what do we forgive them? Those Turks who are living today are not the ones who committed the genocide.  These Turks are guilty of denial, distortion and resistance to facing the truth.  Do we forgive them for lack of human empathy?  Do we excuse their ignorance and lack of education?  Do we turn the other cheek when they invoke Article 301 or use the label ‘Armenian’ as a slur?  How do we begin down this path toward forgiveness?
     
    Of course, all good questions, but let’s remember, forgiveness, at whatever level and in whatever form, is really for us, not for them. The act is really all about relieving our burden, not theirs, as they don’t even know or accept that they have one. So, forgiveness is really about taking this thorn out of our skin, and getting the anger and hate (yes, there is some of that in there – admit it), out of our systems, allowing us to get part it and to free ourselves from negativity.  Sadly, it is even causing Armenians to demonize and go after other Armenians, as if that’s a good thing?  Piranhas do that, but not Armenians.  All I am suggesting is that in order for us to see a change come from the other side, it might help to change how we approach it. To some degree, we already do this in our daily lives on a regular basis….we know that holding endless grudges is not helpful or productive….so, why can’t it be done in this regard, as well?  I suggest that it can be done and to good effect. The alternative is maintaining anger, hostility and a debilitating level of seething negativity that produces nothing good. Perhaps some people actually enjoy that, but I for one, do not.  

     
        

  161. Karekin, you left out a crucial part of my post when you quoted me above:
    “How do you forgive when the original crime is not yet over, but continues on a daily basis as Armenians lose their mother tongue, as their history and artifacts are rewritten and destroyed forever and their ancestors await a proper burial.  This is so complex, please don’t arrogantly over simplify this and suggest that those who are not in the same head space as you are xenophobes. It’s just not that simple.”


    A terrible crime was committed by a nation that now wants to be counted among other civilized democratic nations.  This nation not only profited from the crime of annihilation of the indigenous Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians of Asia Minor, but also never even apologized for its crime.   And the worst part is that the crime is ongoing in the form of denial of the truth, destruction of Armenian artifacts, forced turkification, and the sociological denigration of Armenians within Turkish society.   When a crime is ongoing, the victims are necessarily forced into a defensive posture.
     
    I am more than ready to begin the process of reconciliation and forgiveness once the crime is brought to an end and the perpetrators admit their guilt.  Individual Turks need to move their government toward this end.
     
     
     
     

  162. I am more than ready to begin the process of reconciliation and forgiveness once the crime is brought to an end and the perpetrators admit their guilt.  Individual Turks need to move their government toward this end.
     
    Amen to that Ananoon… I second the above statement….

    Gayane

  163.   Ananoon, 
     
    I understand what you’re saying fully; exactly and more
    So glad that I dropped in and heard form all of you  
    God love you all Karo, Sylva-Md-Poetry, Diran, Seervart, Lucin and many more of you.

    “Wise men talk because they have something to say“~ Plato

  164. Ananoon…I understand your point, and I’m not disputing that an official apology is in order, but in the meantime, there are 70 million people in Turkey…which ones, exactly, are guilty? And as you said in an earlier post, guilty of what, exactly, and how do you propose to carry out your sentence?  Are all of them guilty, including those descended from Armenians, Greeks, Arabs, Kurds?  The US govt didn’t grant citizenship to Blacks until 100 years after the end of slavery, and at that point, had not issued any form of apology. Were all white people guilty of the crime of slavery?  While I fully comprehend what you are saying and asking for, in the modern world, I fear it may never come. If it does, great…but if not, then what? Every nation is built on myths…real or not, I think it is folly to think you can change it just by demanding that it change. There has to be a perceived benefit on a mass scale for that to happen anywhere in the world…and Turkey is no exception. I’m sure if you could outline the benefits for everyone in Turkey, you could get them all on our side, but how do you propose to do that? Please explain…

  165. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // February 23, 2011 at 5:04 am // Reply

    Dear Friends …We have so many good writers on this site…that I feel they can edit my verse more…Please help me…In the long run poems stays while the articles fly in the air.
     
     
    “Wilsonian Armenia”
     
    The plan was to return the Armenian Lands
    to the real owners for five millenniums.
    That was planned in Washington, the capital of USA…
    Thenceforth…that plan rolled over from Sèvres to Lausanne…
    Struggling to stay alive
    On an angry windy ocean.
    The Armenians did never forgot
    who draw and pointed on their ‘Historic Armenian Map’ …
    That great man was the president Wilson
    A real lawful human.

    Sylva-MD-Poetry

  166. One more point regarding guilt and forgiveness. For many years in the late 19th C up to WWI, the Russians had policies in the Caucasus that were often very harsh towards intellectuals, religious leaders, writers, etc. After WWI, Russia bargained away huge parts of Armenia (Kars, Ardahan) to Turkey, Stalin gave away Karabagh and Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan, closed hundreds of churches, sent thousands to a brutal death in Siberia and in general, brutalized the population of Armenia for many years. Today, young Armenians are regularly murdered in broad daylight on Moscow streets because of their complexions, and Armenian churches and monuments are often targeted by skinheads. So, where is the outrage against Russia and Russians?  It certainly is guilty of quite a few anti-Armenian crimes, yet, all of that seems to get swept under the rug – by choice, of course, it is usually overlooked and hardly ever discussed. Business as usual with Russia not just continues, but grows.  As I recall, there have been no apologies from Russia for the giveaways or the brutality.  Have they been forgiven?  Has it all been forgotten?  Seems that way. How is that even possible? 

    In this regard, we can remember Jesus’s quote in the gospel of John – ‘He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone’.  Are all Armenians so guilt free that they can cast judgements on millions of people they don’t even know, have never met or will never meet?  Are all Turks so guilty that they should be demonized? Yes, I know you mean the policies of the Turkish state are represensible, but this often translates into an anti-Turkish (as in people) approach.  Worse, they are not alone….anti-Armenianism exists in many forms in many places. Israel, another genocide denial state, is now attempting to take complete control of the Armenian quarter away from Armenians!  Where does the accountability end and cooperative thinking begin?
     
    Poet Maya Angelou has said, ‘We are all human, therefore nothing human can be alien to us’. She means all the good and all the bad aspects of humanity. None of us is better or worse than anyone else. These are words that trascend anger, hate, negative emotions and horrible events, and yes, have alot of validity in the Armenian world.

  167. Karekin – I’m sure Ananoon will address the points you raised, but I thought I should make a couple of observations here. You effectively avoid answering Ananoon’s precise questions, just like you keep away from answering many questions that I and several other posters asked in the past, while continuing to sing the same mantra over and over again. 70 mln people in Turkey are not guilty, their governments—past and present—are. Therefore it is their government that must offer an apology. In contrast to Indians and Blacks in America, Armenians, I repeat, were taxpaying (thank you, Bedros!) citizens of the country whose government has decided to wipe them out only because it needed to salvage as much lands of other peoples as possible for their new homogenized Turkish republic. The modern day Turkish government is the legal successor of the Ottoman government, therefore, it is the modern Turkish government that must apologize for the crimes of its predecessors. It is incorrect to say that in the modern world an apology may never come. In fact, there are hundreds of cases in the modern world when governments, heads of state, parliaments issued apologies for past wrongdoings. The greatest benefit for that to happen in most of the cases was THE NEED TO CLEANSE a nation from a stigma of being a murderer, a barbarian, a wrong-doer. This is the benefit that the Turkish government needs to mature enough to understand and with advancing the cause internationally, I’m convinced, Armenians contribute to this maturity.
     
    P.S. I also think it’s highly duplicitous of you to bring forward the notion of forgiveness here, the most significant Christian postulate, because in your past comments you slurred Jesus Christ. How hypocritical is it to shamelessly vilify His teachings and the miracles He performed as “magic tricks of some carpenter” and then come out defending the basic teaching that the same “carpenter” spread amongst his followers and throughout the world? Ever thought of that?

  168. Forcible deported from Grandparents home; were possessed by
    a Turk family for 95 years rent being collected of this property,
    There was one apple tree that gave $100 worth of fruits each year

    There is no deference between this example and a bank robber,
    (except this Bank robber is the Government !) Now the bank robber must pay;

    #1) lives lost $
    #2) value of homes $
    #3) Rent collected from
    #4) value of apples
       $ + w/ x 95 years compounded interest.

    Afterwards occupied Western Armenia must be vacated.

    Museums full of Armenian artifacts must be returned back to Armenia.

    PM of turkey has to get on his knees to beg forgiveness
    from all of the Armenians and the World;

  169. Karekin – Are you at all reading and comprehending what other posters here say, or, given your excessive Turkophilia, you just fiercely try to find excuses for the state-planned Ottoman annihilation of a part of their citizenry that belonged to a different racial, national, ethnic, and religious population segment?
     
    In the 19th century the Russians in the Caucasus were expansionists, not the rulers. For some nations, Armenians included, their expansionism, by the way, brought relief, peace, and tranquility in 1828, when after the Treaty of Turkmenchay Eastern Armenia was transferred from Muslim Persia into the Russian Empire. Bargaining parts of Armenia by Stalin did not constitute genocide. It was the Bolshevik stupid nationality policy based on territorial-administrative, not natural ethnic division. Stalin purges against ALL nations of the former Soviet Union were not based on racial, national, ethnic, and religious factors. They were the horrible consequences of his despotical rule, for which, by the way, the modern Russian government has apologized. Young Armenians, as well as ALL non-Russians, who are being murdered in Moscow streets are, indeed, targets of a bunch of skinheads, not the result of a government-premeditated and executed state policy of annihilation of Armenians as a race. These are isolated chauvinistic crimes by groups of thugs. Have you ever read the UN Genocide Convention? Do you appreciate the difference between crimes against humanity and street crimes?
     
    For the thousandth time: Armenians do not cast judgments on millions of ordinary Turkish people, they direct their righteous indignation to the legal successor of the Ottoman empire: the Turkish government. If you think it translates into an anti-Turkish (as in people) approach, that’s your problem, something must be fundamentally wrong with you.
     
    Since you keep bringing up the guilt and forgiveness issue, let me offer you a test that’d help you understand if you’re so sincere and humanistic as you portray yourself. Some time ago you offended me, as well as other posters, by making an explicit insult of the One whose quote (“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone”) you now brazenly use in your comments. Despite demands to apologize for insulting Jesus Christ, you never offered an apology. Since you now preach forgiveness to the Turkish government and insist that 70 mln people cannot be “demonized,” are you, as an individual driven by the need for forgiveness, capable to offer me an apology in my capacity as an individual for offending my most sacred religious relic and feelings as a believer? Go ahead, put your humanistic convictions to the test…

  170. Karekin:
     
    Some observations re Russia:
     
    [1] re:”… For many years in the late 19th C up to WWI, the Russians had policies in the Caucasus that were often very harsh towards intellectuals, religious leaders, writers, etc…”
    You find moral equivalency in exterminating intellectuals (Turks) with “harsh policies” (Russians) ? Are you serious ?
     
    [2] re; “… After WWI, Russia bargained away huge parts of Armenia (Kars, Ardahan) to Turkey…”
    Quite so, except you conveniently conflate Orthodox Christian Russia (Russian Empire) with Bolshevik Soviet Union. Bolsheviks were a pox not only on Armenia and Armenians, but Russia and Russians. They murdered millions of innocent people, including Russians, Ukrainians, etc. How many of their fellow Turks or Moslems did the Ottoman Turks murder ?
     
    Lenin, a half-Tatar himself, gave (gave) trainloads of brand new Mosin-Nagant rifles to Kemal, trainloads of ammunition, cannon, and Gold. That help was crucial for Kemal to save his newly created Turkey from demise – at the expense of Armenians.
     
    [3] re: “…Stalin gave away Karabagh and Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan, closed hundreds of churches, sent thousands to a brutal death in Siberia and in general, brutalized the population of Armenia for many years…
    Quite so, except again you are conflating things: Stalin did all that to Armenia and Armenians. But he did the same to pretty much all the other nationalities in the ‘Union’. The fact that he was ethnic Georgian, and wanted to stick it to Armenians cannot be discounted either.
     
    [4] re: “… Today, young Armenians are regularly murdered in broad daylight on Moscow streets because of their complexions, and Armenian churches and monuments are often targeted by skinheads…”
    Skinheads attack all Caucasians, due in part to terrorist acts by Chechens and other South Caucasians.
    Not being the brightest bulbs in the bunch, these lowlifes lump all Caucasians together.
    There is no Russian Government policy against Armenians that I know of – do you ?
    Skinheads are routinely harassed and rounded up by Russian Law Enforcement.
    I am not aware of a single case where a Russian LEO posed in a photograph with a murderer of an Armenian (as in modern day Turkey)  – are you ?
     
    ———–
     
    With all the damage Bolsheviks did to Armenia, they had no exclusive extermination policy towards Armenians. They were an equal-opportunity bunch of mass-murdering psychopaths. There were countless high-ranking Armenians amongst Bolsheviks/Communists in the leadership, Anastas Ivanovich Mikoyan being the most prominent.
     
    With all the damage Communists did to Armenia, they also modernized Armenian SSR: Armenian SSR was considered one of the most advanced scientifically, technologically and industrially amongst the 15 ‘Republics’ of USSR. The famous MiG jetfighter bureau was co-founded by Anasatas Mikoyan’s brother, Artem (Mikoyan-Gurevich bureau).
     
    Russia was not assisting Azeris in their effort to exterminate Artsakh’s Armenians: Turkey was.
     
    Russia did not mass a whole army on the border of Armenia in 1993 threatening to invade: Turkey did; it was Russian leadership that told the Turks to back off.
     
    I could go on, and on, and, on – but the point has been made.

  171. Karo – Ananoon feels that ‘the crime is not over’. Well, that might express a feeling or a state of mind, but in factual historical terms, it’s incorrect.  The genocide is long over and the world has moved on. There are larger, more pressing issues occupying people’s time and energy.  Most Armenians have, as well. They are living their lives, whereever they may be, becoming successful, educated and active, not by endlessly lamenting the past, but by trying to secure a viable future for themselves and Armenia. Kerk Kerkorian’s generosity to Armenia comes to mind.  That said, an inability to get over or get past the past is not an excuse. That’s what therapists are for. Also, it is not your job to ‘cleanse any nation’ from stigma or anything else, and even if it was, I doubt you could do it. Are you also working to cleanse Armenia?  Reading the current news, it could use some cleansing of its own.  You certainly will not get very far by banging your fist on the table demanding this or that. It doesn’t work at the local grocery store, or with your own relatives…so, it’s unlikely to work with a country like Turkey. Again…for the umpeenth time…I’ve said I endorse an official apology.
    As for bible stories….that’s exactly what they are…parables designed to teach a lesson on many practical, life issues. Anyone can interpret and use them as they choose, just as someone can learn from other holy books by the various religions around the world. Maybe you should start putting some of that teaching into practice, instead of attempting to use it as a battering ram to make your point.
     
     
     

  172. Karekin, you make a case for the benefits of forgiveness for the forgiver and the consequences of holding negative emotions on our community.  I agree that negative preoccupations at times cause Armenians to demonize each other.  It can be debilitating to think so much about murder, injustice, anger, restitution, etc.,  It tips the scale and leaves our lives out of balance; a bit suspicious, over-determined to be right, respected.  In many ways it is as if we have been infected by a terrible virus and we have been struggling for more than 95 years to find the cure.
     
    But what do you expect from your people?  We are sick from the knowledge that something very wrong has yet to be made right; nauseated by the awareness that the world’s balance scales are not upended by this crime, but simply re-balanced around it; and agonized by the unending pain of incomplete mourning for all those lost.
     
    You quote Maya Angelou’s comment on the universality of human nature.  Do you not know that it is our humanity which makes us sick?  Our humanity, endowed by our creator, enables us to recognize injustice, to be compelled to correct it, to refuse to accept it.  Is this hate driven?  If anything, it is hate of the inherent evil of genocide and its denial, not of the people who commit it.  Yes, hate exists.  Hate of a government that lies and profits from evil.  Hate of ignorance sustained by a false Turkish sense of superiority.  Not hate toward a people simply because of who they are.
     
    And you also quote the greatest hater of evil of all time, Jesus Christ, whose life and death and rebirth were nothing if not all about payment for sin and balancing the scales.  We have to ask ourselves, what would Jesus do?   I have no doubt that Christ would both ask Turkey to repent and Armenians to forgive.  Perhaps he would remind us that as Christians, we are no longer ‘of this world’ and should not be surprised when this world falls toward darkness, but I doubt he would fault us for fighting for righteousness in his name.  I guess it is a matter of conscience and we should respect each others choice without demonizing those we don’t quite understand.  And always, we should pray that his will be done.
     

  173. Very well said, Ananoon. I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. However, we do have another aspect of this that is complicating the issue. When someone, anyone, has something you want….whether it is a car, a loaf of bread, an apple, a house or something intangible like an education, we realize we must approach this as a transaction. In any transaction, both sides must give something up in order to get what they want. Ultimately, we all hope for a win-win outcome. In many ways, genocide recongition/acknowledgement/apoloty is something we desperately want from Turkey. That is understandable. So, what do we put on the table as our part of the transaction?  Now, I know everyone will say we put 1.5 million or more souls on the table as well as propoerty, businesses, etc., so it is now up to Turkey to step up and fulfill their part of this. I understand that and agree with it. However, the problem is, they don’t see it that way, unfortunately. We can try to make that point, as many have over the last 95 years, but what if that point is not getting thru?  This is where I think we differ….I think we need to talk, engage and educate THEM, as much as possible, rather than reminding ourselves, which is preaching to the choir. Sit down with them, talk with them, spend time with them…..it might seem difficult at first, but believe me, it will not be impossible and it is the only way to overcome this 95 year long nightmare.

  174. No Karekin, I think you are wrong.  The genocide of Armenians by the nation of Turkey continues to this day, in slow and insidious ways, through assimilation, alienation from our roots and a stranglehold on the Republic’s borders and relations with neighbors.  You may protect yourself from this knowledge by your philosophy of emotional detachment and tendency to label those who carry-on the fight for justice as mentally-ill, but it doesn’t change the reality that Turkey has not ended her assault on our nation.  

    I want nothing more than for Armenians to live in peace with her Turkish neighbors to the east and west, but this is not what they want.  Can’t you feel the pressure as Turkey and Azerbaijan squeeze our nation like a boil in need of lancing?

  175. Karekin – You failed the guilt-and-forgiveness test thus showing hypocrisy and insincerity in most what you mumble on these pages. You know you outrightly insult followers of Jesus Christ by pouring scorn on the Son of God calling Him “some carpenter with magic tricks” or by belittling the Word of God as a “book of stories and parables.” In other words, you know you hurt the feelings of others, yet you never offer an apology for misdemeanor. In this, you act like a cowardly Turkish denialist. Now extrapolate your behavior on the modern Turkish government and try to understand that whatever Armenians would say and however ready they’d be to forgive, the Turkish state would deny its crime. That is why the Turkish establishment must be MADE to admit the guilt, and our efforts at international recognition and lawsuits must never cease.
     
    P.S.  By the way, Karekin, educating other nations is not the responsibility of Armenians. Educating Turks about the crime their forefathers have committed is the responsibility of their own government. Even if we understand that people-to-people contacts won’t do any harm, I believe several people asked you several times: how TECHNICALLY do you see this happening with 10 mln dispersed Armenians vs, 70 mln Turks, with Article 301 hanging over their heads as Damoclean sword, and with borders between Armenia and Turkey closed as a result of Turkey’s anti-Armenian actions?

  176. Karekin, our comments are posting out of sync.  My last post is a response to your last post on Feb. 23, 2011.

    As for your Feb. 24 post, I agree that we should “talk, engage and educate THEM, as much as possible.”  We don’t differ at all on this.  You often posit yourself as if you are alone in this opinion and fail to recognize the many who post similar sentiments here.  This tendency on your part seems a bit over-determined and makes me wonder what drives it?

    As for the lessons learned from biblical sources, Jesus came to bring us to the Father, to bring us back to Eden, to show us the way to Heaven.  He said he is the Truth, the Way and the Life…
    He was and is and always will be about the Light that illuminates the darkness.  I have no doubt that Jesus has already paid for the crime of genocide by His crucifixion and has forgiven the Turks, but I also know that He would not dim his light to obscure a sin not yet repented for.

  177. Ananoon –  Exactly.  How can a person who encourages Armenians to “talk, engage and educate the Turks as much as possible” pop up in this thread where I and others were having a decent and non-discriminatory talk with a Turk and accuse us of “vitriolic xenophobia that is disgraceful, uncalled for and unwelcome” and of being “brainwashed into hating Turks”?!  Why?  Because our views—expressed in a calm, respectful, and evidence-based form—were different from those of a Turk?  Note how many times he was asked to show where in this thread he found “vitriolic xenophobia” and “hatred”. No response… I believe Karekin just wants Armenians to sh** up, because our activity and advancement of the Cause worldwide don’t sit well with his self-depreciating nature, made even pettier due to the residues of millet mentality…

  178. No Karo, the question is for you…..how do you propose to force this (in your words: the Turkish establishment must be MADE to admit the guilt, and our efforts at international recognition and lawsuits must never cease) on anyone???  Don’t give us fantasy, give us something real, something concrete that will make this come to pass. The bottom line is that issue is between us and yes, the Turkish establishment, so how exactly would you ‘make’ this a reality?  This is a lot like a man screaming at a tree….hoping to get the tree to voluntarily drop its fruit. At some point, the screaming has to end and the man has to find a more intelligent way of getting what he wants. Thus far, a few neighboring bushes have dropped some berries, but the tree that is the object of our desire has not….and I’ve yet to see or hear or read a reasonable, realistic approach that will deliver the goods, not from you or anyone else for that matter. If this were any other kind of struggle, anyone would know that it would be time to change course…because the lack of success indicates that the tactics being used need to change, unless we are to be satisfied with working very hard to get just a few berries, but not the real fruit, which remains elusive. As it is often said, there are usually many paths that can be taken to reach the same goal…I suggest there are many that have not been tried and it is about time to at least try them. If they don’t work, fine, but at the very least, try them and see where they lead…we already know what doesn’t work. Time to take another path, that’s all.

  179. to: karo
    bravo- we follow you.  you are well versed, educated and bring all the points in a factual and honest manner.  turks are being painted in a corner.  as we advance they regress.
         beautiful work !
    gerard

  180. Karo jan chisht es… Ananoon very well said..

    and WHERE is Zaki? did this person fled like his comrades when they are stuck in a well thought out, fact filled and straight forward discussions? I guess so… 

    Karekin jan—- Armenians are not obligated to give up anything to gain anything from Turkey… What we gave up is sanity from dealing with all the denial, anger, manipulation, hatred that Turkish govt posed upon our people and nation.. WE dear Karekin have NOTHING to give to Turks…We have been silent for the most part and not raising stink about this matter giving Turkey years to built her fortress of all the denialist tools against us does not mean we are going to stand for that now. not now Karekin… those times are gone…

    G

  181. Dear Karo, I applaud your mindset, your good logic and understanding where this Karekin is coming from, as well as your well versed lingo.  You successfully caught the animal by it’s horns.  Oh last but not least THANK YOU!!!!!
    Seervart 

  182. To Karekin,
    Your raking Armenians over the coals of your self-righteous indignation with the apparent aim of bringing them to a higher level of thinking and feeling than you dogmatically assume they are naturally disposed to reminds me a bit of the Protestant missionaries who first went to Turkey to convert the Turks to Christianity but gave up on the effort after being rudely rebuffed and turned their attention instead to converting the Armenians, who were much easier to convert [no offense intended to Armenian Protestantism]. It’s a little like shooting fish in a barrel, isn’t it? You say (Feb. 23) “I’m not disputing that an official apology is in order”. But after a century of denial of the crudest kind and one generation after another dying in despair of the truth ever being admitted by the state that conceived and carried out the Great Crime, you suggest the purity of moral suasion as the best way to secure that apology in the coming century. That, I suggest, is a callous, self-serving illusion. You might as well do as you suggest: just get on with your life. You might as well check out of the genocide issue instead of stirring up a hornets only to confirm your own (and the Turkish state’s) worst opinions about Armenians and pretending you are offering a real solution to the problem.

  183. to karakin:  what do you suggest should be tried. charles de gaulle once said, “l’union fait la force”, roughly translated it means, togetherness is power.  perhaps that is what is lacking with us Armenians, the unwillingness to go all the way. lobying is the name of the game in america.
         gerard

  184. Gerard..Excellent point… that is all that we need.. UNITY and TOGETHERNESS…very very tough when we have Armenians all over the world, from all corners.. but if we want to win, we need to fight together… as ONE…

    Gayane

  185. The discussion here has essentially turned into one of Armenian strategy. Gayane, I’m not sure what sort of contribution your expecting from me. I’ve already mentioned before that I don’t believe any Sevres style of punitive justice will be possible. There is simply no international authority, legal body or state that has the power or will to bring such a thing to fruition. Karo seems to be preoccupied with the abstract and weighed down by the historical legitimacy of his arguments to understand that ethical/abstract concepts will never shift borders. There appears to be the belief that accusatory finger pointing and yelling guilty to the world will achieve the desired results. Perhaps I’m stating the obvious but I don’t see or sense much guilt in Turkey. Rightly or wrongly, Turkey went through an emotional catharsis arising from its own war of independence and national liberation. We were and still too engaged in our own trauma to recognize the suffering of the ‘other’. To borrow a line from a movie the Sixth Sense – ‘we only see what we what to see’ and similarly this could apply to others, including Armenians where the pain of your own suffering is greatly magnified. The only way I think to overcome this is one person at a time. It will obviously be a frustrating and long process but hopefully this will manifest itself through the strengthening of a stronger civil society within Turkey who will see the benefits of preserving and restoring the historical legacy of all cultures and peoples that once flourished on those lands.

  186. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // February 25, 2011 at 10:37 am // Reply

    Gayane yes Ko Hoket serer yem
    You are a real darling.

    ” We need to fight together as one”

    This is a famous stanza…
    This is a real Justice
    We need to fight together and always
    the liars, deniers, slayers, killers,
    Dirty politicians
    Who can slay and sleep and swim in blood
    ignoring the color
    as if it is a swimming pool
    With chlorinated water.

    I will write more 
    This is written instantly Passionately …..
    Singing with tears with my pain
    For our scimitarated devoted populace…

    Sylva

  187. “There is simply no international authority, legal body or state that has the power or will to bring such a thing [Sevres style of punitive justice] to fruition.” Wrong, Zeki. Sevres was an international treaty that, among other issues, gave Armenians parts of their ancestral lands that Turks have colonized before. As such, the Treaty was not a “punitive justice,” it was restoration of justice. The international authority, legal body that has the power to bring justice (not necessarily in the form of a past treaty) is the International Court of Justice. The states that have the power to bring justice are those who had to gaie Armenian lands to Turkey in 1923. But circumstances change, geopolitical preferences change, empires collapse, nation-states disintegrate, and new state formations appear on the world map. These are not “ethical/abstract concepts.” This is the reality, and this reality, believe it or not, does result in shifted borders.
     
    “There appears to be the belief that accusatory finger pointing and yelling guilty to the world will achieve the desired results.” Wrong again. It already achieved intermediate results: 26 governments of the world acknowledged the Turkish annihilation of Armenians as an act of genocide. Their number is growing. Many provincial governments have done so. Scores of international organizations, professional associations, advocacy groups, genocide scholars, historians, and Nobel Prize laureates have done so. In other words, the civilized world knows that Turks are guilty of perpetrating the genocide. For us, this is a huge intermediate achievement.
     
    “I don’t see or sense much guilt in Turkey.” You are stating the obvious. How can modern Turks have a sense of guilt, if for 95 years their heads were stuffed with the rubbish such as “Armenians were all traitors,” “Armenians threatened the Ottoman state,” “Armenians mass murdered innocent Turks,” etc.? When you’re brainwashed by the government propaganda and distorted history n books, you see everything that Armenians say as “accusatory finger-pointing and yelling guilty,” don’t you?
     
    We don’t buy your “only way”: one person at a time. We consider it as a ploy to delay justice for Armenians. “Strengthening of a stronger civil society within Turkey who will see the benefits of preserving and restoring the historical legacy of all cultures and peoples that once flourished on those lands” is not the prerogative of the Armenians. Turks themselves will have to do this. Noone will do this for them. In the meantime, growing international recognition of Turkish crimes, we believe, will only facilitate Turkey’s coming to senses and cleansing the society from within by means of recognition of the country’s past and repentance for barbarous acts against other human beings. To us, this is the only way.

  188. to karo:  i am glad that you mentioned the International Court of Justice at the Hague.  i have done so myself in the past but we seem to be num about the subject.  why is that,  is it not HYE time.  certainly our dossier is complete.  facts and figures are in.  acceptance is everywhere in the world.  what is holding us back.  we have the attorneys.  what is the holdup.
    if you have an answer please share it.
        sincerely
    gerard

  189. “We only see what we want to see and similarly this could apply to others, including Armenians where the pain of your own suffering is greatly magnified.” How about many non-Turks, like one of many American professors Keith David Watenpaugh whose research was published in the American Historical Association (see Karekin’s link above http://www.dailydemocrat.com/news/ci_17480780), or even Turks (Taner Akçam, Orhan Pamuk, Elif Şafak, Ayse Gunaysu, Baskin Oran, Ragip Zarakolu and many others) who see things the way Armenians do in that our own suffering is not greatly magnified? If Turks can’t see these, they’ll be made to open their eyes…

  190. Dear Gerard – I wish I knew… Alfred de Zayas, former chief of petitions at the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and Secretary of the UN Human Rights Committee, believes that obligation to make reparation for violations of international law is a general principle of law as referred to in Article 38, Paragraph 1c of the Statute of the International Court of Justice. Here’s the link, in case you haven’t read it already: http://www.armenianweekly.com/2010/10/28/de-zayas-armenians-have-strong-legitimate-claim-for-reparations/

  191. Zeki –
     
    Let’s test how sincere your offer is to emphasize the moral rather the political/legal responsibility of the Turks for the Ottoman Turkish crime of genocide against Armenians. All relatives of my grandfather were mutilated and then murdered in Digranakert (Diyarbekir) by Turkish gendarmes. You believe the only way to overcome this is “one person at a time.” I don’t believe it’ll work, but just as an experiment: are you willing to become such a person and offer a moral apology to me for the crimes of your Ottoman forefathers? Let’s see…

  192. Dear Gayane,  You touched a very good but a very touchy point.  Unity and togetherness.  If some of our anscestors didn’t do it right from the times of our history, let’s do it ourselves, let’s do it now.  It doesn’t matter that the enemy has scattered us all around the world and left us without a country right after the Armenian Genocide.  From our little landlocked country, the HayasdanaHays and the ArtsakhaHays to the AvesderalyaHays, SouriaHays, LipananaHays, IraqaHays, HortananaHays, YekibdaHays, HeryaHays, YemenaHays, SudanaHays, DubaiaHays, LibyaHays, TurkaHays, RousaHays, UkranaHays, BoulgaraHays, HounaHays, KermanaHays, ZvitseryaHays, AvesderyaHays, HolondaHays, FransaHays, EsbanaHays, ShevedyaHays, NorvegyaHays, RoumanaHays, AnkliaHays, CanadaHays, AmerigaHays, MexicaHays, ArgentinaHays, ChileaHays, VenezuelaHays, ColombiaHays, PeruvaHays and BraziliaHays.

    Today with the help and the means of transportation (airplaines, authomobiles) telephones, the media and the internet; the world has become a very small place to be, preserving our Armenianness is the thing to do.  Thus the value of togetherness that will make might, we shall overcome any and all obstacles, despite the pressures coming from the mighty empires and the likes.  With the mindset of unity and togetherness we will, we must win at the end.

  193. Karo you took the words right out of my mouth..
    I was going to offer Zeki that opportunity to make it right one person at a time and was going to ask him if he is willing to apologize for my family members who were murdered by the Turks..
    Zeki you speak in such tone that I dont’ know if you are someone who is intentionally saying things or you just don’t know anything.. i am confused but I along with Karo will wait to see if you would be a bigger human being, or should I say bigger Turk to follow your own advice…
    The only way I think to overcome this is one person at a time. It will obviously be a frustrating and long process but hopefully this will manifest itself through the strengthening of a stronger civil society within Turkey who will see the benefits of preserving and restoring the historical legacy of all cultures and peoples that once flourished on those lands.
    Sylva jan… mersi my darling quyrik…

  194. This discussion has gone off the rails again. The core issue is not apology but recognition. We are talking about the commission of an international crime by the previous Turkish government and the commemoration of that event by Armenians around the world. It does no good to apologize if it is not crystal clear what the apology is for. Any apology must be preceded by an acknowledgement of the crime committed.

    One important aspect of this is that the Turkish government coming clean and squarely facing its history will relieve us all of this petty squabbling about which individual owes an apology to which other individual. To Karo I would say, there are tens of thousands of Turks willing to apologize to you right now. But for what?
    That’s the question that demands an answer as another April 24th rolls around.

  195. Diran jan.. i understand what you are saying and that is absolutely should be the case for the TUrkish govt..

    What Karo and I are trying to do is make a point that if Zeki is preaching that things happen one person at a tim…. then why not tart with him if he genuinely wants to make mends with ARmenains.. and HE KNOWS what he is apologizing for… Karo did a superb job explaining and showing what Armenians have endured in the hands of the Ottoman Empire and current Turkish govt.. So i doubt Zeki is unaware of what he will be apologizing for.. we want to see how human and willing to take the first step within this small platform Zeki can demonstrate… that is all.. obviously this will not correct the major problem but it will knock one peddle off of it and the rest will follow sooner or later…

    Karo correct me if I am wrong.. i dont’ know how well I explained my thought process but i am sure you can express it even better..

    Thank you
    G

  196. Diran – If a Turkish person wants to apologize to me or you personally, he or she would know for what, just as Taner Akçam, Orhan Pamuk, Elif Şafak, Ayse Gunaysu, Baskin Oran, Ragip Zarakolu and many others do. I also think that an apology is a moral side of recognition, but of course political and legal sides must be parts of the whole recognition package. I believe it’s clear for all of us here that Turks like Zeki want us to accept and be satisfied only with a moral side of the issue, because they understand that political and legal aspects of the recognition may be uncomfortable for Turks. I just offered Zeki a chance, as an experiment, to test how sincere he is in stressing the moral side of the issue. Lets’ see if he’s ready to morally apologize and for what…

  197. Very well said Diran,
    This is not seeking for a mere apology from the Turkish government; but for the recognition of Turkey’s past crimes against humanity, in this case for more than 1.5 Million Armenian souls who were killed atrociously to empty theirs and our forefather’s lands, whenTurkey stole from our martyrs their homes, their properties, their Churches, their Monasteries, their schools and their Khatchkars.  Aplogy without reparations is not what the heirs of the martyrs are deserving to have closure.  Again, when one neighbour kills his neighbour to steal and takes control of his house and belongings, an apology alone without handing over to the killer’s son his rightful belongings is superficial and certainly not fulfilling or deserving for the heir of the surving son.

  198. Karo, you say: “If a Turkish person wants to apologize to me or you personally, he or she would know for what, just as Taner Akçam, Orhan Pamuk, Elif Şafak, Ayse Gunaysu, Baskin Oran, Ragip Zarakolu and many others do.”
    It is not at all clear to me what the apologizer is apologizing for, even though you think it is obvious or it is obvious to you. They could be apologizing to you for stealing your grandfathers’s apple tree, or for the entire Armenian Genocide? Which is it?
    Of the list of Turkish intellectuals you mention, only Taner Akcam and Ragip Zarakolu, as far as I understand, explicitly agree to recognize as GENOCIDE the crime committed against the Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire. Nevertheless, it is not the responsibility of the others to acknowledge the Genocide, but the responsibility of their government. Zeki has little to do with it.

  199. Karo – why does your “test” suddenly sound more like a trap than a sincere request? With respect this is hardly the right forum to be expressing condolences, apologies, expressions of regret to you or anyone else. Quite frankly if the shoe was on the other foot I’d feel a lot of disdain for someone offering mere words without understanding the emotional connection to your pain. My suggestion would be to swallow your pride and build bridges with individual Turks and where the opportunity presents itself, offer them an insight into 1% of your pain. Because at the end of the end day it will be these individual Turks that can collectively change government policy and not non-binding motions made by foreign governments.

  200. OK, when I published my last post I did not quite understand what transpired in Karo’s last post, but now I do understand and appreciate when now I see both Gayane’s and Karo’s latest posts.  Understood. 

  201. To Zeki: At the end of which day and for how long, one Turk at a time? When, at some unimaginably distant point in a fairy tale future, Turks are finally allowed to say “Armenian Genocide” without being persecuted and imprisoned by their government? That’s not good enough and will never lead the Turkish state to acknowledge the Great Crime it committed.

  202. Diran –
     
    Of course, it is the responsibility of the Turkish government to recognize the genocide, but if a Turkish individual on personal level shares your grief, accepts that Ottoman Turks committed a crime against humanity with regards to millions of Armenians, and offers an apology to you as the descendent of a victim, would you not accept it as such? In no way will it be a substitution for what their government still must do: recognize the genocide, but would you not be glad to see that there is a growing number of ordinary Turks apologizing for the crime of their grandparents? I don’t think an ordinary Turkish person is so primitive as to offer an apology for stealing my grandfathers’ apple tree. He or she may be brainwashed by their state propaganda not to call the crime by its proper name, but if on personal level he or she accepts that a great crime was committed against Ottoman Armenians for which he or she is sorry, would it not be a milestone towards recognition of it as genocide by the Turkish government? I don’t see that we disagree on this. Of the list of Turkish intellectuals I mentioned, of course, some have explicitly agreed to recognize the Ottoman crime as genocide, others did so implicitly. But all of them have acknowledged that genocide was committed. Having acknowledged it, it’s obvious that they’ll be apologizing not for stealing my grandfathers’ apple tree.
     
    Zeki –
     
    Why does my test look more like a trap than a sincere request? First of all, I don’t need to request anything from you. It has nothing to do with swallowing pride: it is a universal truth that a victim does not request a murderer (not you personally, but your Ottoman/Ittihadist forefathers, for sure) to acknowledge the crime. A victim demands it. I also don’t feel I need to engage in a task of building bridges with individual Turks in order to offer them an insight into my pain. I don’t think it is the prerogative of Armenians to do so. Rather, it is the prerogative of your government to cleanse your society of centuries-old stigmas, such as “barbarian Turks” and “genocide perpetrators.” You shift emphases. A murderer state has to mature to realize the need to dispose of disgrace that they put their people in. No one will do this for you. Secondly, it was not a trap per se, it was just a reflection on what you yourself suggested earlier: that the only way to overcome the “we only see what we want to see” misperception is “one person at a time.” I invited you to become such “one person at a time,” but you obviously failed the “test,” because you expressed neither the emotional connection to my pain nor even mere words of apology: nothing! Which only reinforces Armenians’ firm belief that all Turkiss state is preoccupied with is avoiding responsibility for the genocide and getting away with murder. And, Zeki, if you think “this is hardly the right forum to be expressing condolences, apologies, expressions of regret” to Armenians, could you specify where the “right forum” may be? Can you fly over to Yerevan’s Genocide Memorial and express condolences, apologies, and of regret? Bear in mind that as a result of your state’s unilateral hostile action the Turkish border with Armenia is closed… Lastly, I only partly agree that “at the end of the end day it will be individual Turks that can collectively change the government policy and not non-binding motions made by foreign governments.” I think both venues, plus the lawsuits in international courts, can collectively change your government’s distortionist and denialist policies. I’m more than sure that had there not been non-binding motions made by foreign governments, there would have been no current changes in the stubborn denial of the crime by your government. Besides, if you think non-binding motions made by foreign governments are so feeble in changing your government’s policy, might you know why it’s spending millions of taxpayers’ money for attempting to block these non-binding motions?

  203. Zeki:  You are right, empty words of apology without sincere emotional connection are not what we want.  But I still wonder why it is so hard for you to connect.  You make it sound like the Turkish admission of guilt and apology for the atrocities against the Armenians will come when Armenians behave better…  Still the Ottoman superiority.  

    The apology campaign from a few years ago was a nice start, but failed to achieve the full breadth of humility that gives apologies the power to heal.  Why can’t Turks just say “We are ashamed of that time in our history when our people succumbed to the worst of human nature. We wish to acknowledge these crimes, apologize for it, make amends and promise to make changes within our society to ensure that it will never happen again.” 

  204. Karo, in a one-on-one situation I wouldn’t expect an individual Turkish citizen to apologize to me for a state crime committed before he or she was born. That would be pretty weird, in fact. And no matter how many apologies of that kind I received, it would not bring the Turkish government any closer to an acknowledgement of its true history. Ultimately this is a political question, not a personal one. You must know about the ‘apology campaign’ in Turkey.
    It has received a lot of publicity. I draw a direct link between that campaign and President Obama’s ability to use the term ‘Meds Yeghern’ last year to avoid saying Armenian Genocide on April 24th. That is because the apology campaign has adopted the term ‘great catastrophe’ as a sufficient reference to what you and I call The Armenian Genocide. It is commonly but erroneously understood by the principal organizers of the apology campaign that
    their ‘great catastrophe’ is a translation of the Armenian ‘Medz Yeghern’. That is a false, but is given credence by our president, the State Department, and opinion makers all around the world, including some prominent Armenians.Medz Yeghern means Great Crime, no more, no less.

    If you are satisfied to see ‘great catastrophe’ replace ‘Armenian genocide’ in the history of Turkey, then you will go on inviting more Turks to privately apologize. Just be clear that when they say ‘great catastrophe’, they won’t mean genocide in most cases. They will mean something just sort of got out of hand and turned out bad for both Armenians and Turks. Do you really think that will bring the Turkish government closer to calling what its predecessor did genocide?
    I don’t think so. Quite the contrary, as I thought you agreed earlier on in this discussion.

    I honor the courageous Turks who acknowledge the truth and risk their lives every day for it, but if their government only has them flying around like sparrows on a string, saying ‘great catastrophe, great catastrophe’  over and over again it will never be enough to address the fundamental problem.

  205. Diran, you hit all the essential points. I could not agree with you more. However, if you put enough drops of water together and add some wind, you can get a tidal wave. So, on some level I understand what Karo is getting at, as well. The question remains, how will this goal be reached? Do you have a recommendation?

  206. Zeki- do not talk the talk  if you can’t walk the walk..

    Karo jan.. well said and i am with you 100%.  To tell you the truth, I was not even surprised ONE BIT when I read Zeki’s comments… I knew he was not going to stand up and follow what he preached… I knew he was going to give us sugar coated nonsense…

    Diran jan—you have great points and i agree with them as Karo does too…BUT i dont’ know why i still don’t think you are understanding what Karo and I are trying to test or accomplish here…

    We know very well that one Turk apologizing for the crime their forefathers did will not make mends but they are the descendants of those who murdered, stole and raped a nation..and the main body of all evil is their govt.. however, govt is made up of people and not aliens… so naturally if THE people have the same mentality and hatred as their govt, they will continue the denial and extortion until the mother ship changes her course.. however that change in course won’t happen if the people follow their govt like sheeps and produce the same offsprings year after year…  it is the people themselves who help and support the govt need to change themselves to stand against the govt…. hence, why Karo and I took what ZEKI HIMSELF said.. “one person at a time” and offered him to start that one person at a time process… and you know what? Boyajian provided a very nice way of how they can apologize …..so WHY NOT do what he preaches?. and if you think he does not know what he is apologizing for then you are naive…because I am sure Zeki is not stupid….i know, you know and we all know  he knows otherwise it very well; otherwise he would not be reading AW and commenting on such matters..

    Seervart jan- thank you for getting what we are trying to do here..

    G

  207. Karekin,
    If by a recommendation you mean an infallible method  for attaining the goal, no I don’t have one. If anyone did we obviously wouldn’t have to have this discussion every year . My central point is that we should not change the goal, i. e., effecting the Turkish state’s official recognition of its Great Crime against the Armenians. This is something that it owes not only to Armenians but to humanity at large and is non-negotiable. After years of lobbying quite successfully for genocide recognition around the world, after receiving the sustained support of responsible academics, genocide scholars and people of good conscience in every quarter, after Hrant Dink’s heinous and cowardly assassination for his refusal to disavow the word genocide, and, yes, after the outpouring of Turkish sympathy following his death, we should only redouble our determination to convince the Turkish state that it must face its past and recognize the monstrous crime perpetrated by the Ottoman government against its Armenian subjects. It is fine for the apology movement to be talking about a ’great catastrophe’, but that should never be accepted as a substitute for talking about the Great Crime, the Armenian Genocide and naming the great criminals who were behind it. I could be wrong, but I’ll predict that this kind of evasive and euphemistic substitution is what is behind the rumored Turkish wreath-laying at Armenian Genocide commemorations. Once we accept ‘great catastrophe’ there will no longer be any talk of genocide and the book will be shut.

  208. Gayane jan, You are my sweet sister.  You know, from my understanding from a past lecture on these matters, the late Hrant Dink, may God bless his wonderful soul, was also trying to have the people to know and accept the Armenian Genocide by trying to educate them.  I believe it was after his untimely death that a very good number of Turkish intellectuals started signing the petition apologyzing to Armenians four our 1.5+ Million martyrs’ premeditated killings by their Ittihadist government.  You see, knowing the truth about the Armenian Genocide, they obviously started feeling guilty apologyzing for what their anscestors did to the Armenians.  We know that it has to come from their heads of state and at the same time we have to work towards it’s recognition from as many governments throughout the world as it is required to have it internationally and legally recognized.  That does not stop us from doing everything in our power for it’s recognition.  It just means that it’s fine to work both ways; by having the Turkish people educated and accepting their apologies as well as continuing in our mission towards the international legal channels for it’s acceptance as well as for reparations.

  209. Diran jan, As you stated above, it can never be shifted from us wholeheartedly pursuing the recognition of the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE to a mere acceptance of an apology.  Whether the Turkish people apologyze or not, the Turkish government’s recognition is what we pursue, we demand it and with vigor.  From the Diasporan Armenians and from the Motherland; we have to work hand in hand for the Arm. Genocide to be accepted and for reparations to be made to the heirs of the Martyrs.  It just means that we can accept the peoples’ educated recognition and their apologies as well as doing everything in our power for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the Turkish government.

  210. Seervart, I agree with everything you say. May it be so. . . .

  211. Seervart jan.. that is exactly what we are trying to point out when we addressed our comments to Zeki… but unfortunately Zeki is another coward with big words but no action… but so be it… that won’t stop us from fighting… and keepig our unity together to accomplish what we are set to accomplish.. DEMAND an apology and NOT REQUEST as Zeki stated in his Feb 28 comment i believe…(enough of being polite about this) then of course receive restitution/repayment from the Turkish govt to the last penny…

    Gayane

  212. Yes, I have no doubt, the official apology will come, but only when conditions are right. When is that, you ask?  Nations, just like people, usually will only take action when they believe it is in their self-interest to do so. While we believe it is in Turkey’s long term self-interest to come clean on the genocide, for many reasons, the challenge to overcome is getting them to also believe it is in their self-interest. Until that reality comes to pass, there will be fits and starts, and ups and downs, but this is part of the process. Little by little, it is moving in the right direction. Most importantly, these changes must take place internal to Turkey…they must come from within, as they cannot be forced from outside. Have patience…it is really only 3 a.m….the dawn is on its way.

  213. Yes, Karekin, the dawn is coming. But the farmer won’t wake up until the rooster crows.

  214. Karekin says that we are, metaphorically speaking, at 3AM and the dawn of a new day is coming. If that’s true, and it took 95 years to get to this point, how many years will we wait for the dawn to come and for the truth to finally be acknowledged by the perpetrators?  It can’t come too soon.

    If he is right, I am sure we wouldn’t have gotten this close to the ‘dawn’ without the external pressure that we exert through genocide resolutions, political action, protests, academic conferences and publications.   These actions create the internal pressure in Turkey that turns ordinary citizens, as well as academics and writers, into heroes who acknowledge the truth and reject their government’s campaign of denial, all for the sake of truth!  Not self-interest.  God bless Hrant Dink for all he did to inspire these brave souls.   All the more reason to turn up the heat.

    I welcome Turks to attend our genocide commemorations.  It is time.  Let them come.
    But I am with Diran on the idea that the Truth should not be diluted.  We know the truth and shouldn’t be intimidated into watering down the facts by Turks or others who have their own agendas.  The truth is not negotiable.

  215. Hye, recalling April 24th observances of 2010 in Washington DC… Armenians were joined together in remembrance of the Genocide of our people our Survivors.  Too, across the road Turk youths were ridiculing our observance by their singing, dancing, shouting and even the vile movements of their hands to tell Armenians what they thought of our pain…  I was there…  Wherever this Turk ‘attendance’ may occur, Turks may well repeat their inhumane performances of April 24, 2010 – Turkish style. 
    Manooshag

  216. Which day, which year, which century?  So some enlightened Turks acknowledge the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation… But yet, when the Turkish political system and the education of their youth  look upon the Armenians as the ‘enemy’ instead of acknowledging that the Armenians were the victims of the Turks’ slaughters, rapes, kidnappings, and worse… Too, denials of their Genocides – as long as their leaderships pursue today that the Armenian – the victims of the Turk hordes – pursue treating Armenians, until today, as secondary humans – the lies of the Turks continue. A Turk is a Turk is a Turk still of the hordes who came down upon our ancient and advanced nation – to steal all that was Armenian history were a Turkeys’.  Manooshag

  217. As the clock ticks toward 2015, watch closely…do not blink. Get involved…and most importantly, involve them… instead of walls, build bridges….We know the story by heart, by experience and first hand. But please, let’s stop being pleading victims, as that is no way to argue or win our case. As for the undignified racist comment, ‘a Turk is a Turk is a Turk’…we have to ask how it was possible for an educated, high technology country like Germany could so easily go down the road to genocide?  If it could happen there, it can (and did) happen anywhere. To say that the genocide was inherently Turkish is very unbecoming and not true…lots of people and countries have committed mass murder of innocents…including the US (ever hear of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?). So, while I understand where such a rude comment might come from, I don’t think making such a comment is helpful to reaching our goals.  
      

  218. “Most importantly, involve them… instead of walls, build bridges,” says incorrigible Karekin. Well, hello, this is what I and others here were trying to do on personal level and in a non-pejorative, constructive manner before you popped up and accused Armenian commentators of “vitriolic xenophobia” and of being “brainwashed into hating Turks.” Get a grip, dude, you contradict yourself…
     
    P.S.  (1)The educated, high technology country like Germany had the courage to apologize to the Jews for the Holocaust and offer reparations for losses. (2)Lots of people and countries have committed mass murder of innocents, but very few—Turks being uncontestable leaders in this—have committed genocides of several indigenous national and religious groups that were citizens of the same country. (3) Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing was a horrible crime, but the population of these cities wasn’t a part of citizenry of the American Empire. They were seen as enemies at war.

  219. avatar gaytzag palandjian // March 2, 2011 at 8:48 pm // Reply

    I LIKE KAREKIN´S POST.VERY MEASURED AND TO THE POINT WITH FEW BUT CORRECT ANALOGIES AND COMPREHENSIBLE.NO RACIST DISPOSITIONS. NOW  THEN, ON ANOTHER THREAD  HERE TODAY,PLEASE CHECK IT OUT  ON THE RIGHT HAND COLUMN IN MY NAME:-
    I HAVE COMMENTED  THAT  TURKISH DIPLOMACY HAS RUN ITS  COURSE,THENCE THROUGH ITS OTHER PARTNER-AZERBAIJAN-IS CONSTANTLY TRUMPETING A NON-DESIRABLE WAR.
    THEY KNOW FULL WELL  THAT NEITHER OF THESE TWO  ARE TO BE ENCOURAGED ,YES, EVEN BY THE POWERS TO START,RATHER RESTART A WAR ON NK/ARTSAKH,AS MOST WILL LOOSE.THERE  MAY NOT BE ANY REAL WINNER,SINCE MODERN WARFARE INCLUDES MAINLY MECHANIZED DESTRUCTION INTENDED MISSILES  WHAT  NOT. THENCE BEST POLICY IS TO STANDBY AND ENDURE  MORE  OF THAT PARROT  LIKE REPETITIONS  BY THE ALIEV  AND HIS GOVT. HAD THEY MEANT BUSINESS, THEY WOULDE HAVE COMMENCED  IT RATHER  THAN BE SATISFIED WITH SUCH WAR RHETORIC. ARMENIANS HAVE  PATIENCE.WE ARE FAMED  FOR THAT. THAT  IS SUCH LIKE HOT AIR,NOT COLD BLOODED  ATTACKS BY THE WAR MACHINES.THAT WE CAN RETALIATE QUITE WELL,AS WE ARE NO MORE THE UNARMED  ERMENIS  AND ALSO HAVE  ALL THE FUNDS AVAILABLE.

  220. “Lots of people and countries have committed mass murder of innocents, but very few—Turks being uncontestable leaders in this—have committed genocides of several indigenous national and religious groups that were citizens of the same country”
    Karo – that is disingenuous to say the least. Not several but probably hundreds of indigenous Native American tribes each with their unique language and religious beliefs were systematically brought to an end by their colonial masters in the US.
     

  221. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // March 3, 2011 at 8:33 am // Reply

    Mr. Zaki…

    But no one in any genocide
    Sla…a…shed by their scimitars the pregnant ladies tommies 
    To guess and bet on unknown sex…
    A lot of Syrian Muslim Arabs
    Say this…

    They have seen it
    By their both eyes
    and swore.

    Unrealistic things
    Any faith on the earth
    Will never accept

    Sylva 

    Written instantly

  222. Sadly, it is true…there are many instances of governments abusing and murdering their own citizens. The USSR under Stalin is an extreme case with possibly 10 million killed. Then there was Germany. So yes, US govt was committing ethnic cleansing and genocide of native Americans until the late 19th C. While many native Americans (about 60%) were US citizens by the time Calvin Coolidge granted blanket citizenship to them, just think of how insulting the whole horrible experience had to be for most of them. This was their land, their country! 

    So, the parallel with the Armenian experience of being overtaken by a foreign invader and then obliterated by them (after giving a 1000 years of help, service and sharing the benfits of their civilization). Technically, Armenians – like native Americans – were not ‘citizens’ of the Ottoman Empire until the mid-19th C. From Wikipedia: The Hatt-ı Hümayun of 1856 which promised full equality regardless of religion, and the Nationality Law of 1869, which created a common Ottoman citizenship irrespective of religious or ethnic affiliation were precursors to Ottomanism. Ottomanism was rejected by many in the non-Muslim millets and by many Muslims. To the former, it was perceived as a step towards dismantling their traditional privileges. So, of course, none of this excuses Turkey’s actions from 1915 – 23. It just puts it, or at least the ruling govt at the time, the CUP, in the company of other mass murderers of the 20th C.  Today, the remnants of the deep state are working very hard to protect the hallowed memories of the CUP in the eyes of the Turkish public. Today, any educated, thinking Turk has to be embarrassed by this legacy, no matter how little Central Asian blood or DNA he actually has in his veins. And, the more he learns, despite the ongoing threats to honest history by his own got, the more he will cringe in horror at the truth. So again, it is only when the full truth is allowed to surface inside Turkey that everyone will be free. Just as in the Arab countries that are throwing off the control of dictators, the Turkish people are slowing rejecting the shackles of mind control and historical revisionism that has been enforced by the deep state. It is a long and difficult process, but the truth will win.

  223. Zeki –
     
    You leave many questions and inquiries from Armenian commentators unanswered, yet extract one out of many observations made here and comment on it. Is this what’s having a discussion “Turkish way”? You accuse me of being disingenuous in that “lots of people and countries have committed mass murder of innocents, but very few—Turks being uncontestable leaders in this—have committed genocides of several indigenous national and religious groups that were citizens of the same country.” Yet, I don’t disagree that hundreds of indigenous Native American tribes were annihilated as a result of colonization of America. And this clearly resembles the way Seljuk and Ottoman Turks behaved against the Hittites, Armenians, Byzantine Greeks, and Assyrians when they descended on Asia Minor from the steppes of Mongolia and Altay mountains. But my point was that those hundreds of indigenous Native American tribes felt victim of colonization, whereas Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians and their ancient civilizations—after being colonized and mass murdered during the Seljuk colonization—were deliberately wiped out by Ottoman Turks while already constituting a large part of citizenry (unarmed, voiceless, and disenfranchised) of the Ottoman Empire. Besides, the most important point in the case of genocides against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians is that these Ottoman citizens were mass exterminated by the Turkish government of the Ottoman Empire, not dispersed colonizing bands of European settlers as in the case of Native Americans. Do you appreciate the difference?

  224. bravo to all of you, as i said before you are painting these turkish idiot amateurs in a corner.  you are challenging them, not with hatred but with intelligent, factual points.  they are learning. when i made a quick trip to turkey from greece, years ago i couldn’t believe the level of ignorance of these people, no wonder they can be easily brainwashed by their own crooked government….  we are getting there thanks to your persistance and truthfulness.
    all the very best to you all, my fellow Armenians.
        gerard

  225. Zeki, this is absurd.  Do you really aim to defend Turkey by saying that other nations, including the US (against native Americans,) committed genocide?   Are you justifying genocide?  

    The lengths you (and the Turkish government) are willing to go to avoid admitting the truth about what happened to the Armenians of Asia Minor have entered the realm of the bizarre.  If you are going to go the route of comparison, than you need also to acknowledge the nations that have seen fit to admit to their crimes, including the US, Germany, and even recently, the Serbs.  As difficult as it was to make this confession, these nations humbled themselves before the world and carried on.

    Why not just say “Yes, it is true and we are terribly sorry.  No nation deserves to be treated this way.”  Confession is good for the soul. 

    Push come to shove, I don’t believe that you would really justify genocide.  But be careful, if you don’t condemn it, your tacitly condone it, and your nation may be a future target.  As an Armenian, a people with a long history, who have survived many conquerors that rose to great heights and eventually collapsed, we know that the one constant is change.  Is Turkey immune?

  226. Karekin –

    The USSR under Stalin, as an extreme case of governments abusing and murdering their own citizens, is irrelevant to the genocide of Armenians of the Ottoman Empire. The 10 million killed by Stalin were NOT chosen to be victims based on national, ethnic, racial, and religious factors. These atrocities are recognized to be purges, not genocide, because they were the consequences of Stalin’s dictatorial regime, not the consequences of a deliberate governmental policy of extermination of a particular racial group. Secondly, most of ethnic cleansing of Native Americans was done during the colonization campaign, i.e. when American Indians were NOT citizens of the U.S. In contrast to that, by 1915 all Armenians, Greeks, Alawis, and Assyrians were subjects of the Ottoman Empire. Besides, atrocities against Native Americans were committed by the Europeans in their capacity as newcomers, colonizers, whereas atrocities against Armenians and others were committed by the Ottoman Turks in their capacity as official government of the Ottoman Empire.

  227. The focus should be kept on the fact that Turkey has committed an international crime which it refuses to acknowledge and for which it has not paid ANY penalty, and not on how uniquely evil either the Turkish people or the Turkish state is. That is a trap that people like Zeki will always exploit to talk about all the other crimes in the world, as if a given murderer should not be tried because there are other murderers in the world. While I insist that explicit acknowledgement of the crime must precede an apology for it, we will not reach our goal unless we can depend on the existence of decency and evolving humanity within Turkish society.

  228. avatar Random Armenian // March 3, 2011 at 2:31 pm // Reply

    Can we please stop these comparisons between the various crimes against humanity to show who did things worse and who suffered more? It’s petty. It’s somewhat hard to judge level of suffering when the methods, extent and timescales vary from genocide to genocide. Comparisons become subjective.

    Karo,

    Hittites were still around when when the Seljuks rolled in? Are you sure?

    manooshag,

    That aweful behavior at Washington DC happened in a country that’s not Turkey and not Armenia. If some Turks decide to attend the commemoration in Armenia, amongst the tens of thousands Armenians, I doubt they would be there to mock and insult.

  229. Well said Karo jan.. and again i am not surprised.. Zeki is the typical example of how most Turks simply are.. and I don’t expect much from them except like you said they grab on something soooooo minute OUT OF GREAT DEAL OF EVINDENCE, FACTS and INFORMATION using them as their rebuttal..but in reality they don’t have much to say let alone express thoughts in writing in logical and intelligent way… that is just plain sad…but then again what do you expect from people like Zeki and his comrades like Robert, Murat, Ahmet and a list of all others we came to know..my dear Karo…excellent question to Zeki in regards to appreciating the difference between the Ottoman Empire and Native Americans…however,  Zeki does not know how to appreciate the difference because he does not want to.. Trust me.. he knows whats going on but he acts stupid and naive…not sure if this is an act or simply that is how he is …who knows? ..

    Zeki i just don’t understand how you take in information.. do you ignore it, don’t read it or read it but don’t understand it, or understand it but act like you really give a rat’s you know what?….really… after all the detailed an very written data presented to you mostly by Karo (THANK YOU Karo jan), you continue to write such things that either does not make sense, does not relate to what is being discussed or you simply just ignor everything and continue your denialist actions……..i wonder sometimes about you and people like you… ….

    Karekin… yes qo nervera el chunem…yanim inch es ha inch Turqna asum du hetevits validate es anum.. to be honest with you what other countries did and did not do is not a concern of mine right now….. The ARmenian Genocide IS THE FIRST and MOST Horrific event of the 20th Century.. what came after or what happened by other countries is not the issue here.. do you get it?. because the nations who perpetrated those crimes paid dearly for their acts.. TURKEY DID NOT as of yet.. So instead of confirming inch vor Zekina asum.. anents ara vor mer hartsa lutsenq.. as ONE … MIASIN..

    G….

  230. Absurd analogies with other crimes against humanity often surface in many AW threads. Karekin, for one, is a great lover of such absurdities. Turks posting here either follow in his wake or make foolhardy comparisons by themselves. Distortionists must be dressed down.
     
    Diran – “…we will not reach our goal unless we can depend on the existence of decency and evolving humanity within Turkish society.” This is one scenario, and quite a misty one knowing the Turks. The other one may be international pressure and changing geopolitical preferences that could make them at least acknowledge the crime.
     
    Random Armenian – Just a mechanical slip-up: no Hittites, of course.

  231. Karo, I think you know very well I wasn’t proposing to simply wait for the ‘conversion of the Turks’ as a substitute for strong external pressure. It’s obvious that the discussion about the Armenian Genocide that has been taking place in Turkey in recent years would never have arisen spontaneously. It arose because of Armenian persistence in reminding the world of Turkey’s responsibility for the Genocide, coupled with Turkey’s strong desire to become a member of the European Union. Hrant Dink catapulted that discussion forward dangerously and at the cost of his life, and we cannot turn our backs on the powerful forces he unleashed by his martyrdom. What we must guard against is the exploitation of that discussion by the stubbornly negationist government to assert that Turkey has, simply by allowing the discussion to go on, done all that is necessary to meet its historic obligations to the truth and join the European Union. But at this point the greatest accomplishment of this discussion is to rename the Armenian Genocide ‘the great catastrophe’, that is, a catastrophe that tragically engulfed both Turks and Armenians. Beneath it all, the Turkish government will undoubtedly be very happy to leave things at that. But that’s not good enough and that will be the struggle as we approach the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.

  232. Boyajian – I didn’t make that comment as a defense of the Ottomans or Turkey, two wrongs never make a right. Nevertheless, Karo’s sense of proportionality must be challenged. There are enough facts in existence without having to exaggerate.

  233. Diran – it is true that Armenian persistence and the sacrifice of the brave like Dink have elevated the discussion to the fore but don’t underestimate the growth of the civil society in Turkey and the contribution it can make moving forward.You would be deluding yourself if you think you can achieve your goals without the goodwill of Turkish citizens. No one, including the EU, US, UN have the political resolve or capability to impose demands and conditions on Turkey that will bear fruit worth picking. You shouldn’t subscribe to the adversarial approach advocated by some here. Taking a hardline will only encourage continued defensive posturing and heightened nationalist tendencies as has been the recent trend i.e. more of the same, minimal results.

  234. We can either act like Siamese fighting fish trapped in a small bowl and endlessly fight each other to the death until only one remains swimming, or act like beautiful, gentle koi who live for 100+ years in harmony. Which will it be?  And yes, as humans it is a choice for us, unlike the fish, who are born with certain specific behaviors and inherent mindsets. We can choose our paths and how we intereact with each other. Let’s all choose the right path, one of peaceful co-existence, above anything else.

  235. Zeki, I agree that the goodwill of Turkish citizenry is an important factor in bringing forth a just resolution between Armenians and Turks.  Just as I believe Armenian goodwill will play an important role.  Both sides must be willing to step toward one another.  I remember being amazed and touched by the outpouring of support for Hrant Dink after his assassination. Such potential.  Such great hopes.  But since then, what…?   Where has that goodwill gone?  

    I asked you twice why Turks don’t just admit and apologize.  Not trying to be overly simplistic.  Just wondering what your thoughts on this might be.  This is not a trap.  It is an effort to understand.

  236. “Karo’s sense of proportionality must be challenged. There are enough facts in existence without having to exaggerate.”  I believe I took the challenge from you, Zeki, didn’t I? I, in turn, challenged you to enlighten us with your facts in existence. But you sneaked out… So far we’ve seen only unsubstantiated arguments based on no historical or legal evidence. If you think I exaggerate, lay out your facts, don’t just blow hot air…. Your basic point is that the recognition of genocide has transformed from being a moral issue to a political/legal one. When I challenged you whether you were capable of offerring an apology on personal level for your Ittihadist forefathers’ crime, because apology is, clearly, a moral notion and thus should be welcomed by you, you sneaked out again…
     
    “No one, including the EU, US, UN have the political resolve or capability to impose demands and conditions on Turkey that will bear fruit worth picking.” No, Zeki, they do have such a capability. For instance, recognition of the Armenian Genocide, as Turkey’s moral obligation, was introduced by EU as one the conditions for Turkey’s entry into the Union. You failed to do this, among other conditions, and it’s clear to everyone that you’re out. Other conditions were imposed on Turkey with regard to the oppression of Kurds and Cyprus occupation issues. I challenged you already to answer the question, which you disregarded so far: if you believe that imposing demands and conditions on Turkey will bear no fruit worth picking, why does your government take the adversarial approach towards non-binding, essentially moral, resolutions by foreign parliaments, international organizations, and professional associations recognizing Ottoman atrocities against Armenians as genocide?
     
    The goodwill of Turkish citizens is of course important, but how do you generate that goodwill if your students are taught distorted version of history at schools and your state propaganda stuffs your citizens’ brains with rubbish, such as “2-2.5 mln Armenians were deported to sunny Syrian deserts for their own safety”? And enlighten us also how you generate goodwill if for speaking the truth people can be shot in the daylight, as Dink, or tried and deported, as Akcam and Pamuk? Do please enlighten us so we don’t delude ourselves.
     
    Demanding justice is not a “hard line”, Zeki. Had you government admitted the guilt earlier, there would have been no need for demanding justice now, which you call “hard line.”
     
    Diran – Agreed.

  237. Zeki, I stand by what I said and the way I said it. Nowhere did I dismiss the importance of the goodwill of segments of Turkish society. I just warned that it not be exploited for negationist purposes by the Turkish government. And speaking of self-delusion, it is pure fantasy to think that the Turkish government without outside pressure would respond positively to even twice or four times the amount of sympathy demonstrated so far toward the Armenian issue on the part of its citizens. As far as I can tell, “heightened nationalist tendencies” are part and parcel of the Turkish state and show no signs of going away.

  238. In addition to being motivated by self or national interest, people, nations and societies can also be motivated and manipulated by fear. We need to recognize that the deep, underlying fear in Turkey, not just among those in government or in nationalist circles, but also the population in general, is of national dismemberment, a la Yugoslavia. Whether it is stated outwardly or not, this is often discussed in Turkey and with it, comes a vigilance against all those who are suspected of working towards those ends. If you haven’t included yourself among those who openly or secretly wishes for that to happen to Turkey, I’d be surprised. So, this is yet another element that is contributing to the non-recognition of the genocide, as well as it’s ongoing denial. Once they admit it…then what?  So, we need to realize that there is a very deep national fear and insecurity about the whole issue in Turkey that does not exist on the Armenian side of the equation. Put those fears to rest in an honest, honorable and legitimate way and genocide recognition will most likely arrive soon thereafter.

  239. Karekin –  I tend to live in harmony with others, and wish to do so with you too on these pages, if you (a)stop insulting other people’s Faith and its relics (haven’t you learnt this basic feature of social behavior living in the U.S.?), for which you never apologize just like Turks for their crimes; and (b)stop drawing absurd analogies between (just one example) Stalin’s purges against multinational Soviet population aimed at solidifying his grip on power and Ottoman Turkish annihilation of their own citizens of a particular national, ethnic, racial, and religious origin aimed at wiping them out as a civilization, stealing their ancestral lands for their new Turkish Republic, and portraying their remaining (i.e. not detonated or transformed to mosques or sheepcots) cultural edifices as Turkish and/or Seljuk.

  240. Why is it that Karekin has come to sound so much like Zeki?

  241. I don’t need to recognize the deep, underlying fear and insecurity in Turkey of national dismemberment. Armenians, as well as Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, and Kurds, didn’t invite Seljuk Turks to Asia Minor from Mongolian steppes and mountains of Altay. They didn’t invite the Turks to settle on the lands of sedentary, nobler and more civilized nations. Armenians, living on their ancestral lands for several millennia, didn’t invite Turks to colonize them. It was not Armenians or other oppressed peoples who caused the makeshift Ottoman empire to collapse. And certainly it was not Armenians who mass murdered millions of Turks and appropriated two-thirds of their historical homeland in and around UlaanBaatar. Therefore, it’s not Armenians’ problem to put the fears of the Turks for their territorial integrity to rest so that our genocide recognition “will arrive thereafter”. During the past 88 years the Turkish republic was made—due to economic, technological, and military investments of the Western Christian nations—a stronger nation-state. This, however, didn’t prevent the Turks to put the Armenian genocide recognition to oblivion. Nothing can convince me that if Armenians withdraw their claims for justice (unthinkable!), Turks will rush to acknowledge the crime and start reparations. On the other hand, isn’t it broadly understood that Turkey has a chance to come out as stronger, reliable, and renewed state if she cleanses herself from sins, repents and apologizes for her past crimes?

  242. Right Diran:

    The mask is slowly dissolving and revealing the true face behind.
    Shape-shifter redux  (“Star Trek”).

  243. Look – if you can’t think outside your teeny weeny little box, there’s not much anyone can do for you. I don’t know you you are or who you think you are, but I have committed no crime anywhere at anytime…moreover, I have NOTHING to apologize for to you or to anyone else. I’m being as polite as I can here. If you want to stay on topic instead of attacking people personally, fine, but get a grip people.

  244. LOL.. You hit the bull’s eye Diran on Karekin.. I was laughing so hard when I read your comment on why is it that Karekin came to sound very much like Zeki.. I know right? They sound very much like one… hmmmm very spooky… but one is Armenian and the other one is A Turk.. go figure..

    Karo jan– DITTO to your comments… excellent questions… i too want to know the answers IF Zeki knows how to answer them…. I doubt he does because as any other Turk that we ran into on our pages he possess similar characteristics… just throw a line and then dissapear… then show up again and throw another line and dissapear again… it is like a game for them… they have nothing valid to offer or anything intelligent in that matter….

    He speaks of “it has to start within”, yet he offers no apology, he speaks of no external pressure can work on Turkey, yet Karo provided excellent examples.. he speaks of that and he speaks of this.. but nothing we can say ok this makes sense…same tactics some Turks use to get out of the situation when they have nothing to offer…

  245. Karekin– you are something else you know that? You say think outside of teeny weeny box?  that is funny…. but why are you getting upset for something you yourself brought upon yourself… instead of trying to act like you did not do anything wrong, try to understand what Karo is telling you and do what you preach… apologize and make things right.. that is what you want right? well………… for Karo and many of us who did read your comments would like to have an apology..but no one is forcing you or pushing you… just know that what you say have consequences…being polite has nothing to do what one is required to do my dear comrad…

    Oh and instead of concentrating on changing the Armenians or telling us what we should do or should not do as it is NOT our duty to help the Turks to the extend that you want us to do…(and Karo explained to you in detail), lets concentrate on working TOGETHER and AS A UNIT to create an atmosphere where WE CAN WIN… I believe we will do a greater justice and service than always being a thorn on our side .. don’t you agree?? 

    Just a thought… nothing more nothing less.

    G

  246. Boyajian – “I asked you twice why Turks don’t just admit and apologize”. I had already answered this before. The simple answer is because there’s no prevailing sentiment of guilt in the country. The complicated answer is understanding the origin of this sentiment. Turkey went through an emotional catharsis arising from its own war of independence and national liberation, purging any guilt or responsibility for its acts and misdeeds. Sadly it still hasn’t overcome its own trauma and suspicions to recognize the suffering of the ‘other’ being Armenians and other Christian minorities. This as some may call the ‘Sevres mentality’ coupled with the adversarial political/legal nature of the ongoing worldwide campaign has lead to a defensive reflex to the point being at times plain irrational but other times necessary for legal self interest. That’s why I say the humanitarian aspect of this issue needs to be predominant driver to make inroads with the general population. I offer you my opinion, talk to someone like a politician or a prosecutor and that will go straight to their head, talk as a friend and that will go straight to their heart.
     

  247. Karekin wants Armenians to be more solicitous of Turks to ‘ease’ them into admission and apology.

    Karo asserts that we must keep the pressure up in order to ‘force’ Turkey to face the truth.

    Zeki warns against a hardline approach which ‘only encourages Turks into a defensive posture’. 

    Diran avoids the rhetoric and whittles down the issue to an ‘international crime not yet paid for’.

    Gayane doesn’t hide her frustration, doesn’t care what others think, and calls it as she sees it. 

    Turkey, no longer able to deny what happened, suggests both sides suffered ‘a great catastrophe,’ and hopes to avoid guilt by substituting the concept of mutual suffering.

    Obama caves.

    Armenians want justice, economic prosperity, and peace with their neighbors, but not at the risk of more loss. 

    Erdogan orders the razing of the statue of Turkish and Armenian friendship.

    Ancient churches crumble and bones in the desert turn to dust…

  248. Karo, You made excellent points above again.  It’s exactly how I think, as if you speak my mind and soul.
    Diran, About Karekin, It is what I also think about him. Remember, Turks unlike Armenians are very devious politicians.  We need to be careful.  Again, they are the ultimate politicians with real politik behaviours and attitudes; but the majority for 95 years have been schooled by their governments that a Genocide of Armenians is non existent, but the Armenians deceived them…. bla… bla… bla… and you and I know their stories made up with lies so that they’ll throw off their dirty clothe on the saintly martyrs of the Armenian Genocide who were atrociously and barbarically killed by their Ittihadist CUP government of Turkey of 1915.
    Gayane jan, 
    If Karekin was at all a man enough, much before now he should have apologyzed to all of us for his sorry behaviour and un-Armenian thoughts and outbursts.

  249. My concern is and always has been that too many in the Armenian community are always in battle mode, but worse….always fighting multiple battles on multiple fronts and never winning any of them. Any amateur historian knows very well that such strategy and tactics have caused many mighty empires and military machines to fall. Where does the fighting end?  How does anyone know if/when we’ve won?  Let’s look at all the different battles that seem to be constantly being waged: 1915 & genocide recognition; Turkey; Karabagh, assimilation, minority rights, Armenian language preservation, historic preservation, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Old City Jerusalem, genocide museum, insurance companies, press freedom in Armenia, corruption in Armenia, etc, etc. etc. And then, Armenians see fit to battle each other on petty issues, that amount to attempts at thought control.  We are a very small community…yet can be very pugnacious towards others and ourselves. Maybe it’s time to develop a clear focus instead of sending people in all different directions and on overlapping issues.This reduces the effectiveness of each individual message. Issues are resolved by compromise and cooperation – yes, from all sides – Turks included.  As it is often said, a tree that does not bend in the wind will not last the storm. Think about it. That’s all…think about it. Unless of course, you prefer a status quo of endless battles that exhaust everyone and do not move things forward in a positive way. Even though most Armenians on this forum apparently see compromise as a sign of weakness and reject it out of hand, it really is the only way to advance anything to the next level.      

  250. Listen, Karekin – I don’t want anyone, especially you, to do anything for me or others. Whether or not you committed a crime, that’s not anyone’s business here. But knowingly insulting other people’s faith relics is a misdemeanor, and several people in other threads requested that you apologize for it, because you hurt their religious feelings. It is certainly not polite, but outrightly blasphemous, to call Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ “some carpenter with his magic tricks” and the Word of God, the Holy Bible, a “book of stories and parables.” When you spew out this blasphemy, don’t you think you may attack faithful people by it? Imagine what hysteria you’d whip up if any Armenian Christian here descended so low as to call Prophet Mohammed “some merchant with his magic trick of touring heaven and hell on his horse Burak”? Or that Holy Koran is not a revelation from God to Mohammed through angel Gabriel, but a “compilation of fairy tales”? Won’t it be viewed as disrespect and misdemeanor for which an offender would need to apologize?

  251. Karekin, what should this compromise encompass?

  252. Zeki – It is understandable to some extent that there’s no prevailing sentiment of guilt in the country. After all, Armenians couldn’t expect much from a society that’s been brainwashed for decades. But I have to ask the simple question for the third time: because you advocate moral side of the genocide recognition as opposed to political/legal side, can you personally admit and apologize for the crimes of your Ittihadist grandparents, as a moral gesture? After all, you seem to understand where Armenians and the international community are coming from on the issue of genocide. Can you do this on personal level even if there is no prevailing sentiment of guilt in the country?

  253. Yes, Boyajian, well said. Turkey’s game is to convert the most serious crime in international law into a palatable, cost-free Mutual Catastrophe and sail with flying colors into the European Union.

  254. “Even though most Armenians on this forum apparently see compromise as a sign of weakness and reject it out of hand, it really is the only way to advance anything to the next level”, writes incorrigible Karekin. 
     
    Definition of “compromise” from Oxford Dictionary: “Compromise is an agreement or settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.” Armenians are not involved in a dispute. Turks want us to do so. Armenians are involved in a case of receiving justice for them. In fact, Armenians denounce any attempt to engage themselves in a dispute over an internationally accepted and historically documented fact of genocide. Secondly, there can be no dispute between the victim and the murderer. Armenians and Turks were not two warring sides in WWI, nor were they two antagonistic social strata to a civil war to develop a compromise. Armenians were victims and Ottoman Turks were their mass murderers. The only agreement or settlement in similar cases is recognition of crime by the murderer, apology to the victim and reparations for the victim’s losses. Thirdly, Armenians don’t suffer from the guilt complex as Turks do in order to make inroads to a compromise: we did not annihilate and forcibly deport 2 mln ethnic Turks, did not steal two-thirds of their historical homeland in the Altay mountains, and do not portray Turkish mosques and Muslim tombs as Armenian Christian churches and cross-stones, or transform them to “museums” or sheepfolds.

  255. Boyajian:  A minor alteration. I don’t rule out steps at rapprochement IF they are earnest and don’t serve Turkey’s negationist policies or attempts to evade justice for Armenians. But in the background the pressure needs to be kept up. Otherwise, the issue can be lulled, as Diran correctly warns, to a “common catastrophe that had befallen both Armenians and Turks.”

  256. Karekin wants Armenians to be more solicitous of Turks to ‘ease’ them into admission and apology.
    Karo asserts that we must keep the pressure up in order to ‘force’ Turkey to face the truth.
    Zeki warns against a hardline approach which ‘only encourages Turks into a defensive posture’. 
    Diran avoids the rhetoric and whittles down the issue to an ‘international crime not yet paid for’.
    Gayane doesn’t hide her frustration, doesn’t care what others think, and calls it as she sees it.” 
     
    And what does Boyajian want? :)

  257. Boyajian…there are many, many ways in which a win-win outcome can develop, if responsible people on both sides work hard to reach a compromise. Everybody wants something. What do we have to give that they want but doesn’t cost us something, and gets us what we want/need in return?  Make a list, weigh the options. Put them on the table, Do a mix & match and find a way. This is in Armenia’s long term interest. Remember, despite all it has, there are still things that Turkey needs and wants from the world and from Armenia, that we can give. Sometimes these things can be symbolic or diplomatic gestures, but carry a lot of weight. So, as an example, maybe Armenia offers Turkey support for joining the EU in exchange for genocide and Karabagh recognition?  It may be pie in the sky, but who knows? A little good will can often go a long way. The point is, it can be done and be done to Armenia’s benefit. Ask for something, but put something on the table at the same time. When you ask but don’t give, at least in the world of realpolitik, you often don’t get.  However, where there’s a will, there’s a way.

  258. karekin here is the thing.. WE ARE NOT ASKING… WE ARE DEMANDING..you know the difference? We are done asking you understand? We have done nothing but be polite and passive about this and look what happened for the last 90 years or so.. NOTHING.. NOTHING on the TURKISH SIDE.. NADA, ZILCH, ZERO… you think by as being nice and passive and ask instead of demand will get us anywhere? NOT ANYMORE.. so instead of making this process, this compromise as more like Armenians give in to get something, try to make it TURKISH GOVT GIVE IT UP AND ADMIT ALREADY.. we are not here to stroke their ego anymore for murdering a nation.. are you out of your mind?????… enough is enough……

  259. Well said Karo jan.. apres…

    Boyajian.. as always.. right on…

    Seervart jan– gitem …:) I agree with you…

  260. avatar Random Armenian // March 5, 2011 at 6:00 pm // Reply

    The idea of “common catastrophe that had befallen both Armenians and Turks.” is an appeal to compromise where it means “we’ll meet you halfway, we’ll agree to a catastrophe if you don’t use the word genocide”.

    I’m guessing a cleansing of the Turkish archives has already happened, at least to some degree, in preparation of the historical commission that was part of the signed accords. Turkey insisted on the commission as part of the accords. Given the Turkish governments active resistance to recognition, I suspect a plan or even a trap on their side. Any sort of commission should not be in such governmental accords since the outcome can be tied or pressured politically. Border openings and diplomatic ties could be tied to the outcome of the commission and thus the border issue becomes economic pressure against genocide recognition.

    Commissions and dialogues should happen organically between Armenians and Turks (academics and NGOs) without governmental mandates. I am assuming, probably naively, that the latter is a more honest way to go about this.

  261. Karekin, I agree with you in theory, but what concrete real world suggestions do you have for things Armenia can offer?  They have taken so much already.  You want us to compromise the little we have left.  We can offer to back off the hardline on genocide recognition and accept the concept of mutual suffering instead.  That would make them happy, but that is compromising the truth.  They may have suffered but we didn’t create the situation that brought them pain.  

    Karo, since you asked…I’m an idealist.  I want Turkey to admit to genocide, make reparations, return Ararat, Kars and Van for starters, open a passage at Trebizond, and back out of the Armenia-Azeri issue in NK. I want my relatives in Haiastan to know peace and prosperity.  I want my people to create and innovate in all the arts and sciences and to take their place among the nations with pride.  I want the truth to be known by all and recorded in history without dispute as a reminder to all nations that genocide has no statute of limitations and will not go unpunished.  I want Armenia and Turkey to put the past behind them and move forward as cooperative neighbors who respect each others sovereignty.  I want Turkey to abolish Article 301.  I want Turkey to establish a day to recognize Hrant Dink’s martyrdom as a heroic act that changed their nation for the better.  I want to look forward to a day when I can hear the name “Turkey” and not feel that familiar pain…

  262.  
    After considerable research and computer analysis, I discovered some little known historical information that may give an indication as to how  modern  Turks and the Non-Ottoman State of Turkey will develop their relations with Armenia in the future.
    ——-
    About 20 years ago, there was a splendid little war between Armenians of Artsakh  (a.k.a Nagorno-Karabagh Autonomous SSR) and Azeri Tatars of Azerbaijan SSR: some of you may have heard of it.
     
    Here is a quick synopsis of the events:
     
    -         1988: Armenians in Stepanakert and Yerevan peacefully – repeat PEACEFULLY – protest and petition the Soviet authorities to approve the legal separation of Nagorno-Karabagh ASSR from Azerbaijan SSR. In response, Azeri Tatars massacre defenseless Armenian civilians in Sumgait and Baku.
    -         The State of Azerbaijan starts military operations against Artsakh’s Armenian population with the stated intention of exterminating and ethnically cleansing Artsakh of its indigenous Armenian population.
    -         Despite appeals from ‘World Community’ for ‘calm’ and ‘negotiations’, Armenians arm themselves and start defending their homes and families.
    -         The war seesaws: Armenians win a round; Azeri Tatars win the next round. Armenians are on the ropes, facing massive defeat.
    -         This is where things take an unexpected turn for the Armenians: what Turkey does next stuns Armenians worldwide.
    -         Wracked by remorse and feelings of shame and guilt  for having committed a Genocide against Armenians in 1915, and to atone, in part, for the crime of AG, Turkish leadership takes the following actions:

    Turkish Special Forces, disguised as irregular Grey Wolves volunteers, land in Baku and convince Azeri leadership that they are there to fight alongside their Turkic brethren. However, following orders of their superiors in Ankara, they attack and destroy Azeri military installations in Baku. Their heroic deeds allow Armenian troops to chalk up victories on the battlefield.
    Turkish Military starts sending massive amounts of military matteriel to Armenia.
    NATO trained Turkish officers arrive in Stepanakert  to assist Armenians: their knowledge of Azeri’s military doctrine is invaluable and helps Armenians win many critical battles.
    In 1993, with the enthusiastic support of the Armenian Government, Turkey sends a whole Army thru the South of Armenia towards the border of Azerbaijan: the massed might of the Turkish army threatening Baku finally convinces President Haydar Aliev to sue for peace.
    Turkey works tirelessly at the UN to compel Azerbaijan to recognize the independence of the new Republic of Artsakh.
    Turkey gifts 100s of millions of dollars for the reconstruction of Artsakh, and pledge billions more to Armenia.
    Returning Turkish troops march triumphantly thru Yerevan’s Freedom Square on their way to the airport: the road to the airport is lined on both sides with throngs of smiling Armenians of all ages, throwing red carnations at the brotherly Turkish troops.

     
    ——–
    Of course what actually happened was the exact opposite.

    The State of Turkey did everything possible, short of actually invading RoA, to assist their  Azeri Tatar cousins in their failed attempt to  exterminate another 200,000 Armenians. Turkish transport planes even violated Southern Armenia’s airspace several times on their way to Azerbaijan.
    This was not 95 years ago: this was not Ottoman Turkey.
    This was only 20 years ago: this was modern, contemporary Turkey that many (erroneously) believe has nothing but good intentions towards Armenia and Armenians.
     
    NOTE: Turkey massed a whole army on the border of RoA in 1993, when Azeris were on the ropes and facing massive defeat at the hands of Artsakh’s Armenians Warriors.

    Only reason their invasion  plans were thwarted was that the Russian General Staff faxed some pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (as they appeared in August 1945) to PM Tansu Çiller. Shortly thereafter, she wisely ordered the Turk troops back into their barracks.

    Q.E.D.
     

  263. Genocide recognition is not a political issue per se to belong to the world of Realpolitik. It is essentially a legal issue. An international crime has been committed, for which the victim demands recognition, apology, and reparations from the legal successor of the murderer-state. It has become a politicized issue because of the Turkish denial, but is essentially not a political one. Therefore, “win-win outcomes” typical for political issues are irrelevant in our case. The largely political term “compromise” is irrelevant as well (see: my explanation in an earlier post). Again, parties to the genocide recognition are not former (or present) parties to a war or a civil strife to work out a “compromise” or be able to “ask for something, but put something on the table at the same time”, as some here suggest. “Everybody wants something” is somewhat derogatory phrase for us, because belonging in the realm of politics, not legal demands, the phrase essentially juxtaposes the positions of a victim and a murderer. In other words, Armenians’ demand for justice is put on the same scale as the denial of it that Turks advance in order to get away with the crime against humanity. I strongly doubt that Jews were ever led by the realization of a political notion “everybody wants something” while advancing their case. As for Armenia offering Turkey support for joining the EU in exchange for genocide and Artsakh recognition, Armenia is too minor a player to be able to do that. It can certainly influence EU decisions on the issue of Turkey’s admission, but, obviously, cannot make decisions for the whole body. Besides, this condition is just one out of many that the EU has imposed on Turkey; it’s by no means the remaining one out of the deck of requirements that Turkey has so far failed to honor. It’s still an enigma, as Boyajian rightly said, as to what is it that Armenia, having experienced the loss of the Homeland, the massive loss of life, transfer of other two territories of Nakhichevan and Artsakh to another sort of Turks to the east, land-locked, its nation dispersed all over the world, and still demanding justice for all these crimes, has to “put on the table.” What else??

  264. Avery –  In addendum: “Turkey must show its teeth to Armenia… What harm would it do if a few bombs were dropped on the Armenian side by Turkish troops holding maneuvers on the border?… Armenians have not learned the lessons of 1915. [read: genocide by Ottoman Turks – K.]” – Late president Turgut Ozal of Turkey discussing the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh in April 1993.
     
    It was just 18 years ago…

  265. I am in. you got my vote.

  266. The classical Ottoman policy in response to international pressures was to promise the Great Powers speedy reform to improve the condition of Ottoman Christians, and to subsequently prevaricate or do nothing, when the international pressure subsided.” – “Crime of Numbers: The Role of Statistics in the Armenian Question (1878-1918)”, 2010, by Fuat Dündar.
     
    Has anything changed in modern Turkish policy? I wonder…

  267. Thanks for the addendum Karo: I had forgotten about that one: in my database now.

    I believe Karekin called manooshag a ‘racist’ for using the phrase “A Turk is a Turk is a Turk”.

    If the above Ozal statement doesn’t prove manooshag’s point, what does ?

    I stand with manooshag: “A Turk is a Turk is a Turk” (Leadership, not every normal, ordinary Turk).

    If that makes me a bigot, then  I wear the badge with pride. As long as the Ittihadists/Bozkurt Turkish leadership makes threats against my people, and presents an existential threat to Armenia – then I shall remain a proud bigot and racist, as far as the Fascist leadership of Turkey is concerned.

  268. For a bunch of people who are supposedly so damn good in business (which by the way, ALWAYS requires some degree of compromise, negotiation and working at a win-win outcome), we seem to have quite a few in our community who are also just plain lousy at it. I don’t care what kind of human interaction you are involved in, taking the stance of ‘we demand this and we demand that’ is almost guaranteed to not achieve whatever the goal might be, because it does not satisfy the psychological needs on both sides of the equation. If you don’t understand that, you’ve never engaged in any kind of business transaction and apparently have no understanding of how to go about it.  You also have no clue as to how to achieve our goals, no matter how lofty, just and moral they might be…the world does not respond to ‘demands’, because demanding anything is the realm of a child, not a thinking adult. Someone shows up at your front door and demands that you open it…demands, demands, demands…because you supposedly have something inside that they want. Well…of course, they could have called the police or a lawyer, but instead, you, as the assaulted homeowner, call the police and have the demander dragged away…because no matter how just the demand, he is seen as a nutcase who cannot be reasoned with.  If this lesson is not clear to you, then you are hopeless and might as well go scream your demands at a tree or a rock, because you will get the same result. Soghomon Tehlirian and others got justice not just for themselves, for the entire Armenian nation by eliminating the perpetrators. They were exonerated. Many of the CUP leaders were hanged for their crimes. As a result, the world has moved on. You were not alive then, so you are attempting to re-live that time, over and over again, rather than move on into the future. My grandparents who lost all who came before them were able to move on 90 years ago…why can’t you?  We have an Armenia that is in desperate straights. We need to secure it and reunite it with Karabagh. That should be your focus, not an event that you cannot change the outcome of. It happened. It was horrible beyond words. Yes, there needs to be an apology, but come on people….let’s attend to the real needs of those living in Armenia, because you cannot bring back the dead, no matter what you say or do. 

  269. Here we go again Karekin.  Whether your grandparents and parents and yourself has moved on is not the issue here for heaven’s sake.  Surely even you must understand that the first Genocide of the 20th century must be first,  recognized by the guilty country, apologies be made and reparations be made to the heirs of the martyrs as in this case the Turks came charging in from Mongolia, have killed the people who lived in Western Armenia for thousands and thousands of years, owned their lands and country, demolished Monasteries, artifacts, Churches to say to the world that Armenians never lived in their for thousands of years.  Then they are denial for almost 96 years; as denial is the last phase of the Genocide.  Thus the Armenian Genocide is still ongoing; it hasen’t ended yet.  If we move on without asking and demanding for a recognition, an apology and reperations, then we the murderer nation is allowing to the world the wrong ethics and the wrong mores.  We shall give the whole world the WRONG MESSAGE.  That it is alright to annihilate a whole nation, commit a Genocide and then not ask the murderer country to be responsible for it.  We as Armenians will allow the world to be belligerent, to be bad, to be murderers and it is OK, unless we demand the wrong to be right, then we as Armenians have a responsibilty to be good role models and set the records and the matters right!!!!! 

  270. I have obviously made a mistake above as I should have said, “WE THE NATION THAT HAVE BEEN MURDERED”.

    Again I say to Karekin, that we Armenians have to set the records right by demanding Turkey, the murderer country who annihilated more than a million and a half Armenians in 1915 then took over our lands, to set their records right.  For TURKEY TO RECOGNIZE THEIR KILLINGS TO THE ARMENIANS, TO APOLOGIZE TO THE ARMENIANS AND THEN TO PAY REPARATIONS TO THE ARMENIANS.  We must show to the world that killing of a nation is never permissible and gone UNPUNISHED.  We have this responsibility as Armenians and as good people to do this for the sake of the human kind.  For the sake of humanity!

  271. Let’s not forget that the world is watching us and taking it all in.  The world must know that the good must reign and the bad must not have free reign.  We owe this to all the nations of the world and to all the people of the world.  Thus the good behaviours must win but the bad behaviours of people and of nations must NEVER win.  That’s why we have a responsiblity to have Turkey to set her records RIGHT!

  272. Karekin… AGAIN.. we ARE DEMANDING an apology and will not ask.. WE ARE NOT GIVING ANYTHING TO GAIN ANYTHING FROM the murderer… read my comment above for the explanation…..THIS IS NOT A BUSINESS TRANSACTION.. I repeat NOT A BUSINESS TRANSACTION… in a made belief and perfect world world your way of doing things may have worked.. but we are not dealing in an ideal situation, we are not dealing with a party that was equally intentionally murdered and destroyed, we are not dealing with a govt who wants to make things right and admit their crimes.. WE ARE NOT SELLING ANYTHING TO TURKS and WE ARE NOT BUYING ANY CRAP FROM TURKS… You may want to see this transaction as business transaction but I do not…

    As a result, the world has moved on. You were not alive then, so you are attempting to re-live that time, over and over again, rather than move on into the future.

    THE WORLD DID NOT MOVE ON… NOT THE WORLD I KNOW.. NOT THE ARMENIANS’s WORLD… This issue IS AS IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT to me and i am sure many here as well as working on building and keeping our motherland well and strong… GOD i want to slap you out of your poooch state of mind cause I am getting really annoyed by your comments…you are like a broken radio.. PLEASE CHANGE YOUR CHANNEL FOR GOD’s SAKE…

    Apres Seervart jan.. well said…

    Gayane

  273. Gayane jan,  I wish Karo to say the same thing that he said about you, that Seervart doesn’t hide her frustration, doesn’t care what others think and says it as she sees it fit.  I wouldn’t mind to be like you my dear.

    You said it perfectly Gayane jan.  How true that this is not a perfect world when the murderer doesn’t feel guilty and doesn’t want to admit her killings and her guilt and denies it for a century.  There could NOT be a business transaction because this is not a case for business or a case of having been on the same level; because we Armenians had no choice in the matter when we (our martyrs) were living as citizens of Turkey in a peaceful manner – working hard, paying enormous amount of taxes and constantly living in fear -.  There was no normalcy or being at the same level; but a case of a murder of a nation, the Armenian nation.  We MUST continue to fight for Turkey to accept their responsbility; for the sake of the Armenians, for the sake of the Turkish nation and for the sake of mankind! 

  274. Karekin – All that you’ve mumbled would be true if it applied to a business or any other ordinary human interaction, not to a crime against humanity. No one disagrees that a human interaction requires some degree of compromise, negotiation and working at a win-win outcome. But being held accountable for a murder is not a human interaction in the sense that it’s not a regular business transaction. When you commit a murder and the police come after you, the cops don’t work out a compromise with you, they don’t engage themselves in negotiations with you, and certainly don’t work at a “win-win” outcome. Then, at the court of law, people stand against the criminal and DEMAND justice. It is obscure to say that the world has moved on after the Armenian genocide. In what sense? How far did it moved? If the world moved on, how come genocides, the ugliest of human crimes, still happen, the most recent one being in Darfur? You know why? Because the first genocide of the 20th century still awaits its recognition. That your grandparents were able to move on 90 years ago doesn’t mean that the prevailing majority of the Armenians worldwide must—or can—do the same. You have a serious psychological problem of seeing things through your narrow worldview. It’s called self-centeredness and such a mindset is too narrow to be an intellectual challenge. You’ve been told, perhaps dozens of times, that it’s obvious that Armenians cannot change the outcome of genocide, but Armenians can—and must—work to receive recognition and justice. This doesn’t exclude working for the betterment of Armenia. In fact, the two are parts of the same national Cause.

  275. Hye, over time I have observed that a Karekin inevitably takes the opposing positions – of whatever.  Sour grapes.  Manooshag

  276. So, whatever a turkey next ‘releases’ – just another of their leaderships ongoing/unending PLOYs… distractions, deceits,lies and more. Leaderships of a  turkey is full of these.  Manooshag

  277. That’s exactly it Manooshag,

    Turkey’s Leadership is = Deceit, Lies, Ploys, Distractions and the likes.  You summed it up just right.

  278. Seervart jan… yes haskanum em qez u urax em vor du el es haskanum inch em asum… u r a smart lady…love you for it..:)

    Karo jan— it is like we read each other’s mind because we both stated the obvious.. the business transaction matter….i guess great minds think alike..:). but you sir are a genious and i will never be of equal to your intelligence and knowledge..thank you for everything…

    ………our interaction should not, will not and is not a business transaction.. there is no win win here… murderer needs to get over it, stand up and confess… AFTER THAT, we can talk about everything else… until that happens, FORGET about compromise, win win situation, give me this and i will give you that.. NO WAY..

    God Bless

  279. avatar gaytzag palandjian // March 8, 2011 at 12:11 am // Reply

    KAREKIN !!!!
    YOU ARE 100% correct,if  your formulae is w/rgd to business,Oil ,big oil transactions,compromise  on an agreement regarding slight border corrections etc., etc.
    But when it comes TO MURDER  OF A NATION,HOLD IT THERE!!! YOU ARE 200% WRONG!!!
    We have fought for Justice and will carry on  until it is  applied to us.NO NOT JUST FOR GENOCIDE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AND APOLOGIES,but FOR   RESTITUTION/reparations…for our grandparents ..first  of all MONEY FOR  THEIR BLOOD-THIS HAS PRECEDENT AND HOW!!!!!! then also later on we shall press for properties,riches,businesses ,stores, churches,monasteries etc. that they destroyed  and confiscated. Their  well being today is based  on our fathers,grandfathers , grandmothers  riches,properties .How can you say  what  you have above…please try to comprehend.It is not  that difficult.Also read some books  on the Armenian Qjuestion, like Akabi Nasibians´Pro.f  Richard G.Hovhannissian´Vahagn Dadrian´s.Why even turks did condemn it in the MILITARY TRIBUNALS  the Triumverate and their accomplices, but, then…other elements  in their Govt. helped them slip through and escape.BUT THE ARMENIAN AVENGERS SOUGHT THEM OUT OUT ONE BY ONE AND SENT THEM TO   H E L L !!!!!

  280. I’m sorry, but if anyone thinks that the refusal to negotiate or compromise is a winning strategy, you need look no further than the map. Of course I understand that the genocide is not a business transaction, that’s a metphorical reference from which you should be able to extrapolate some meaning for today’s predictament, and perhaps a new approach.  Sadly, very sadly, but over the centuries, Armenia has been reduced to a postage stamp of its former self.  It might sound good to say you will refuse all attempts at a resolution unless it is totally on your terms, but guess what – that does not produce results. Someone here needs to be realistic and resist the temptation of endless fantasy. Justice and morality are not enough to win in this world, whether is it business, politics or anything else.  Some people are insinuating that I don’t want Armenians to win…but that’s not the case at all. I’m just suggesting that as of this point in time, a different approach might produce better results than what we have now, particularly since no one seems all that happy about the current state of affairs.

  281. to karekin….  and what might you suggest a different approach should be. it is your mind that is a postage stamp, not great Armenia.  you just ramble on with no end in sight. 
       gerard

  282. It is a waste of time to argue with “Karekin”. He is being taken seriously in this discussion only because he uses an Armenian screen name. Remember, it was he who said, “Armenians have a chip on their shoulder”, then used one of the oldest ethnic stereotypes about the Armenians, that they are ‘good in business’ as a cheap excuse to detract from the campaign for genocide recognition and justice.

    In case this individual has descended his marble staircase long enough to listen, I would tell him that the Armenian Genocide was run EXACTLY like a business by Talat Pasha and his gang of criminals. It was a ‘self-financing’ operation on which big bucks were made. That was what it was all about.

  283. Let’s say you have a large, heavy boulder in your yard. You’ve wanted to move it for many years. However, you realize that by yelling at it endlessly, over and over, as you have been, it stays put and doesn’t go anywhere. It is immobile. You keep yelling, you jump up and down, etc, etc, etc. Same thing.  At some point, you realize that if you really want the rock to move, you will need to do something more…you reach down and grasp it, you push it. You get actively involved with the rock, and you realize that yes, you can move it in the direction you want it to go if you will actually touch and engage with the rock. Not easy, but it’s possible. You then ask your neighbor for some help and he brings over a large crowbar, and together – with this new leverage, you are able to move the rock that was unmovable for years.  After 95 years of yelling at our ‘rock’, it’s time to find a smarter way of moving it. We have plenty of very smart people in our community. Let’s ask them to explore new avenues and create leverage in a new way. If ants can move mountains, so can we if we are willing to actually engage with the mountain. If not, the mountain will remain the same forever.

  284. Exactly, Diran.  It was the person named Karekin that somewhere in other threads once said: “You people [meaning us, Armenians] are embarrassments. Nowhere was I treated better than in Turkey…” Which means if his self was treated well by a typical Turkish flattery, than the whole Armenian nation should accommodate to his petty, self-depreciating nature and start trumpeting all over the world that we forget that a whole nation was butchered and the crime is still  unrepentant for, and that now, since some of us are being flattered by Turks, we have to “move on” without a mere apology for the Ottoman Turkish barbarism.

  285. Karekin, there is a large boulder in my yard and it is the boulder of Turkey’s denial of the Armenian genocide.  I want it out of my yard very badly.  It is huge and sits directly in front of my kitchen window blocking the sunshine.  I can’t look out into my yard without this rock obstructing my view.  It also sits in the spot where I would love to grow a grape vine and build an arbor that would provide shade to enjoy the outdoors in.  

    As much as it bothers me, I have never once yelled at it or jumped up and down like a child to try to make it move.  But I do complain to my neighbors about it and ask for their help in moving it.  I make some shish kebab and pilaf and invite them to come over with their pick axes of justice and help me crumble it to pieces.   Little by little we are breaking pieces off of it.  We have a long way to go, but I can see we are making progress.  It gets smaller every day.  Before long it will be gone and I will grow my grapes and using my Dad’s recipe, I’ll make some wine to share with them.  God bless my Dad. God bless my neighbors.  Would you like to come over and help us?

  286. “To serve Armenia is to serve civilization.” – British Prime Minister William Ewart Gladstone

  287. the best way to take care of karekin is not to answer him. no post, no cheese, no mouse.
       gerard

  288. Aha Karo jan,  Now I understand Karekin’s mentality.  Apparently he has been treated very nicely from a few Turks and because of it he wants all of us to forget about pursuing the Armenian Genocide to be accepted and reparations be made by the Turkish government.  Well Karekin, just because you’ve been fawned, caressed and flattered by the enemy doesn’t give you the right to address and try to manipulate the more maturer and the more responsible Armenians in here or around the world.  If you were a mature, a caring thoughtful individual, you would think through, mull it over and then speak  to us more intelligently.  You are acting selfishly and your behaviour is reminding of the actions of that Bryza guy who is in Azerbaijan now when he didn’t belong there, because he is biased and pretty much sleeping with the Azeris.

    Today, if our martyrs were to be awaken from their sleep, I am 100 percent sure that they would want for justice to be done for their untimely, bloody and unjustly deaths.   They would want that Turkey would take responsibility for their crimes and would finally do the right thing by; apologizing and then paying reparations for the blood money that their blood was spared for.  Our martyrs would also want this, not just for the Armenians but also for all mankind’s sake. 

  289. Look sireli paregamner…whether you believe it or not, I believe in the Armenian cause and want it to win. I truly do. I want to see Turkey acknowledge the genocide, apologize and yes – offer reparations or restoration of ownership for anything stolen since 1915. Where we differ is on how to get there. So, perhaps we just have to agree to disagree and leave it there. That said, it seems obvious that the current strategy and approach is not working or producing the results we all want. Clearly, none of you are happy with the status quo. At the same time, you also are not happy with anyone who might advocate a different approach that might produce a better outcome. I find that distressing and just a bit odd. It’s like clinging to a sinking ship and not grasping a passing log that might take you to safety. Forgive me, but I have no rational way of explaining that kind of thinking. What are you actually defending here?  Failure?  Why?  It defies comprehension. Hai tahd is a worthy cause, no doubt, but 95 years without success tells me something profound. At the very least, a change in course (and perhaps attitude) is needed because today’s Armenia is at risk. Those in the diaspora have little to lose, but why jeopardize those living in Armenia, Karabagh or in Turkey?  As I said, let’s be civil and agree to disagree, our goals are the same, but sometimes unorthodox methods produce better results and need to be tried in order to reach them. Without trying, we will never know.   

     

  290. The different approach that might produce a better outcome that you advocate is to forget and move on. Conventional wisdom suggests that all-national calamities like genocides can hardly be forgotten. As for moving on, it is doable, but only when the murderer-state will admit the crime and offer an apology. Until then, why won’t you try to impact Turks’ views by posting in Turkish online publications? I hope you understand that the primary reason for “95 years without success” is their state’s distortionist and denialist position, not the natural course of advancing justice that Armenians have embarked on. Without trying, you will never know, won’t you?

  291. Karo – Please read my words….No, I’m not advocating that anyone forget and move on, and I’m not sure why you might think that’s what I am suggesting.  As I said, if the goals we all agree on are to be reached, because they are worthwhile, historically valid, etc. then there must be better ways of reaching them since after all this time, we’ve not achieved those goals.  As it is said, there are many ways to skin a cat, many paths to reach a goal and a hundred ways to cook an egg. Forgetting is not one of those paths and is not an option. 

    I’m sure many of us have heard or read these words of wisdom:
    Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    the courage to change the things I can,
    and the wisdom to know the difference.

  292. For the record, Karekin, there is much I agree with you on.  Of course it makes sense to examine tactics, and try new ones when the old ones aren’t working.  No one disagrees with this in theory. But it is your ill-formed assumption that I have problems with.

    You assert that Armenians have tried and failed for 95 years to “force” Turkey to accept responsibility for the genocide.  Not true.  These efforts started after the 1950′s and didn’t really get going until 1970′s.  It took the passage of the Genocide Convention and a rather lengthy period of healing and coalescing into diaspora communities for the campaigns for justice to begin. Further, Armenia has only been independent of communism since the 1990′s and since then has been involved in a protracted conflict with Azerbaijan.  Its role in the pursuit of justice is still taking shape.  This is a fluid process and its progress is not always linear, but has produced a net gain, nonetheless.  

    Perhaps Hai Tahd is not the failure you claim it to be.  Perhaps we don’t need to “change course” but to have more patience and appreciation for small successes along the long road to justice. Perhaps we need to remember that sometimes it is darkest just before the dawn.  Perhaps we need to acknowledge that the existence of discourse about the genocide in Turkish society is a direct result of the campaigns for recognition that have forced Turks to contemplate this uncomfortable topic, to uncover the hidden Armenians in their family trees and to question the distorted history they have been taught.  Perhaps Hai Tahd is responsible for people like Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akcam, and Hrant Dink and others who courageously put their own safety on the line for the sake of bringing the truth to light.  Perhaps the existence of laws like Article 301a should be seen as a sign that Hai Tahd is succeeding and that fear of the inevitable Truth causes the powers that be to try to suppress it. But despite their efforts to suppress, the Truth is being heard and the concept of ‘insulting Turkishness’ is itself being questioned in Turkey.  Perhaps we have to believe in the power of good over evil and the concept that some truths are non-negotiable, cannot be ‘compromised’ and cannot be silenced forever.

    You speak about unorthodox methods but offer only vague suggestions.  You convey disapproval for current Hai Tahd tactics and Armenians who you think are ‘too angry, too demanding,’ but short of “hug a Turk today” you offer no alternative.    I am open to hearing all about new tactics and how to implement them.  I don’t know what your goal is or if you are covertly trying to derail Hai Tahd as some suggest.  I just can’t let your negativity go unchallenged.

  293. “Please read my words….No, I’m not advocating that anyone forget and move on, and I’m not sure why you might think that’s what I am suggesting.”  OK, Karekin. Just did so. Here are your words from the March 6, 2011 comment: “…the world has moved on. You [modern-day Armenians] were not alive then, so you are attempting to re-live that time, over and over again [read: not forget], rather than move on into the future. My grandparents who lost all who came before them were able to move on 90 years ago…why can’t you?”  What other sense than a suggestion to forget and move on—short of recognition, apology, and retributions—might the readers think you’re making?

  294. Boyajian…Turkey’s official stance has not moved one iota of an inch on the fundamental issue of recognizing the genocide. It makes no difference when the effort began…the results are non-existent. The topic of Khachig’s article is the rumor that some unnamed Turkish officials might attend 1915 commemoration events. If they do, all the better, as I think it will help to drive home the message of truth. And, as you say, little by little, we can hope for things to change. The reason for putting out a plea for new and unorthodox ideas on this topic is really to challenge people into thinking about alternatives that might produce a different result. In every conflict or disagreement between two or more people, the best way to resolve the differences is to sit down and talk with each other. I’ve yet to see that happen specifically on the genocide. If we believe we are right and possess the ‘truth’, then why not take the opportunity to educate – up front and in person – those whom we seek to bring the light?  That’s why the idea that Turkish government officials attending a 1915 commemorative are important…it could help to change the dynamic, it could help to open the door to discussion and open the minds of those who up until now have been closed. But, rather than just waiting to see if they attend, why can’t President Sarkisyan issue a formal invitation to them?  Ask them to attend….put them on the spot. This is part of their history as well, even if they don’t see it as we see it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. 

  295. I just don’t see it your way, Karekin.  I think Hai Tahd has produced results that are affecting Turkish society and world opinion and will eventually lead to a just resolution of the Armenian Question.  I don’t see it as a failure, but a success in the making.  Any negative reaction from Turks in response to our efforts are just par for the course.  It is natural for Turks to find our truth abhorrent.  The crimes of their forefathers are abhorrent and hard to accept.  But despite this, more and more Turks are accepting it.  Their resistance doesn’t mean that we are using the wrong tactics.  In America, most whites had negative responses to the demands of the civil rights movement and denigrated those who fought for it.  Yet, eventually changes began to happen and attitudes have been altered to the point that a black man has become our president.  This did not happen overnight.

    At the same time I agree with you that different approaches should also be pursued.  All possible approaches should be tried!   Let Turks come to the April 24th Commemorations.  Let Armenia extend the invitation.  Let Turkey deal with world criticism if it chooses to refuse.  Let it receive praise if it chooses to come with a sincere gesture of compassion.  Let Armenia apologize to no one for pursuing justice in all ways possible.  And you can hug as many Turks as will let you.

    Part of the problem I have with the way you present your position is that your criticism and/or judgment of success is so simplistic (e.g.:  ”Since Turkey still denies the genocide, we have failed.”)  This approach doesn’t take into account the complex layers of the problem.  First of all, the near extinction of the Armenians and the subsequent take-over by communists left Armenia severely handicapped in the pursuit of justice.  Further, the diaspora communities took decades to heal and regroup into organizations capable of political action.  At the same time Turkey reinvented itself into a modern, secular nation after the genocide and purposely separated itself from its Ottoman failures.  Ataturk attempted to finish off what was left of the Armenians and proceeded to force Turkification on the people.  A false Turkish identity was created based on a manufactured history and force-fed to the people who were subsequently denied the truth about their history.  And don’t forget the ever-changing geopolitical agendas that easily ignore the needs of our little nation and its “little problem.”  Is it really a wonder that we are fighting an uphill battle?

    By the way, the “boulder of denial” is still sitting in my yard and you and any of your Turkish friends who are willing, are invited to come over with your pick axes to help me break it up and dispose of its pieces.  I will start the barbecue.

  296. Boyajian.. Genious.. excellent post my dear.. excellent… well done…

    I am glad you broke it down for Karekin and all the Turks who are reading these posts…

    Hopefully they will be smart enough or capable of obsorbing and retaining information in their occupied heads…

    I will bring the paxlava…:)

    G

  297. As much as I’d like to agree with all your points, Boyajian, I can’t, primarily because the facts on the ground won’t let me. While there is a place for those who want to act like Armenian fundamentalist cheerleaders, rah-rah-rah, the lack of serious, self-critical thinking is holding us back from honestly acknowledging what’s really going on and cannot be ignored.  Yes, we have an amazing history and have had a good number of hurdles to overcome during the last 90 years. But today we have an azad Hayastan that we should all support. At the same time, think of what’s happened there.  Yes, there is some good going on, I’d grant you that much, and I support it. But, at the same time you can read about all the other crises in the Weekly and many of the other Armenian newspapers and media outlets.  Let’s look at a few. Day by day, the infrastructure is being sold to outsiders (Russians); the lack of jobs has caused entire villages to empty out; the population has dropped by one third since independence, thousands have left for good paying jobs in Turkey and Russia; there is rampant abuse in the military; orphans, the poor and the elderly are often living in desperate conditions. Let’s add to it that Karabagh still is not recognized by Armenia nor has it been reunited with Armenia as it should be; and is losing population as well; that Azerbaijan was able to destroy the cemetary and khatchkars at Julfa, there is no chance whatsoever of ever recovering Nakhichevan.  So while there are positive developments as well, and those in the diaspora are doing exceptionally well, our successes on the issue of Turkey and the genocide are really very limited. Yes, some noted figures in Turkey are beginning to articulate the truth, but the govt has not budged on 301. Yes, 30,000 people signed the apology letter, but none of those people were in positions of power. The border still has not been opened. Yes, parliaments around the world acknowledge the genocide, but the key country – Turkey – has not. There comes a time when we cannot continue to blame everyone else for every problem that exists in Armenian society. We need to take responsibility some at least some of them and evaluate ourselves as critically as we evaluate others. If we are going to hold others up to a very high standard, we need to do the same for ourselves.  So, when we fall short – on something as key as genocide recognition – we need to intelligently evaluate how and why that’s not happening as we’d like it to. Yes, a good degree of the problem lies on the Turkish side, but not all of it. We have to take responsibility for at least some of this failure because that’s the only part we can control or influence with any degree of certainty. So, once again, the boulder sits in the yard…and we can’t expect anyone else to move it for us or blame them when it doesn’t go anywhere. We are solely responsible and if it doesn’t get moved from point A to point B…it is our fault and it is up to us to fix it ourselves.  No more excuses.

  298. In one breath Karekin makes use of the expression ‘azad Hayastan’, then in the next lists all the ways it is truly ailing and urgently in need of our help (if we would just chuck the ‘rah-rah-rah’ about the Genocide long enough to do so, as if that is just another, unrelated problem). How ‘azad’ is that?

  299. to all the peolple that contribute to these posts.  you all must have lots of time to participate. on our side the Armenian side everything seems to be well documented and the research is bang on.  as was mentioned before us Armenians are blessed with an overabondance of a virtue called ‘patience’ unfortunately we have to use it against these illiterate turks. my point is shouldn’t everything be tabulated and files made up to be used in the future. i believe all your points are really well taken, so well as a matter of fact, that you leave the turks in the gutter. but again,  all these facts are already and have been open reading for years and years, as the turk mentions we should find new avenues. instead of continuing this dialogue which is not getting us anywhere. everytime i read these posts, it sadly reminds me of the massacre of my great, great grandparents by these dirty animals.
        put everything in a book and send the book to obama, before april 24 2011.  maybe he’ll use the word GENOCIDE this time, instead of listening to the turks and their lobby in washington.
    regards
        gerard

  300. Mr. Paraghamian:

    Some posters probably have more time than others, but I think the more important thing is that people care to be involved: we need more from the Armenian community worldwide to participate in all things Armenian: unfortunately not nearly enough do.

    It doesn’t really take that much time: only the desire. And we owe it to our forebears, particularly the ones that paid the ultimate price - most recently in Artsakh- so that rest of us can live as we choose – Armenian, Christian - and not be forced to become something we don’t want: 

    Your suggestion about a centralized database of facts and figures is a good one.
    There are lots Armenian (e.g. http://www.armeniapedia.org) and non-Armenian sites (e.g. Wikipedia). But, they seem to have bits and pieces.

    And finally: I object when Turk posters use lower case for ‘armenian’, so I will also object when Armenian posters use lower case for ‘turk’ (and ‘obama’): I believe it diminishes our moral superiority. 

    (sometimes people just type all lower case. however when there is deliberate mixing, then it was purposely done)

  301. The point is that the 100th anniversary is just a few years away. Now is the time to make bold moves, even unexpected ones, and take some intelligent risks, rather than continue as we have, because none of us wants to see 2015 pass by without seeing a major achievement on the issue of the genocide. This moment cannot be lost!  How can that message be stressed? Our ‘leaders’ have not gotten what we need and want, have they? So why defend their every move as if they are sacrosanct?  Can we be critical of ourselves when we fail?  Now, if you’re content with the way things have gone thus far…with the genocide being casually brushed aside by the US, Turkey and others, fine, stick with the status quo and nothing will change much. Tha way, you’ll ensure that the next 100 years will be even more painful than the last.   It is often said, ‘if there is no pain, there is no gain’.  Even if it might seem painful now, our demands should be focused on OUR leaders to take the crucial steps necessary – right now. This is not the time to be polite or to defend those who hold ceremonial positions in our community, particularly if they are not doing the job well or even well enough. These people cruise along, get applause at events and hold high offices yet don’t deliver very much in terms of real results. It is time to hold their feet to the fire, because this is a once in a century, truly – once in a lifetime event that is coming to pass. So, I am pleading with you not to let them get away with doing the same old thing yet again, so we end up the same old, unsatisfying result. That would be truly tragic. To defend them now rather than to push them to new, bold action will only help us to lose this momentous opportunity – something I’m sure none of you want to see or experience. After the fact, it will be too late. Now is the time, folks.
      

  302. Karekin.. surprisingly your last comment was not as bad as the rest of your comments… it made sense… even though it is just one comment out of slew of comments that were weird, rude and made NO sense whats so ever.

    I personally never ever praised our current govt … not even once… i hate and very unhappy about it because i never want to put down my own but our govt truly does not know how to run a country and it is a obstacle instead of a solution to many problems.. and one beingnot standing firm or putting his feet down on the recognition and reperation of Genocide…we are not even going to get into other things that they are not firm and strong about..

    April 24th is approaching… I just hope our govt step it up and our leadership to use any tactic that Turkey is churning in their hell hole and use it against them.. it is time to think and act a bit more aggressive. 

  303. Gayane, this has been my point all along. As I said before, we are on the same team and have the same goals. The difference is on how to get there. More than anything, by 2015, the genocide needs to be discussed and recogniized outside the Armenian community, but especially within the Turkish community.  This cannot remain an internal Armenian event forever. If that’s the outcome, we will all be to blame and very sad, too.  If that is not clear, I’m not sure how to convey the importance of this upcoming anniversary. And, it is not just important for Armenians…it is a huge part of Turkish history, as well. In that they eliminated 25% of their native population with a policy of genocide, they need to be involved and asked to repent and apologize.  Armenians have been a part of Turkish history ever since the first Seljuk stepped foot in Armenia a thousand years ago, and Armenians contributed and shared their knowledge, expertise and culture with the invaders and helped to make them successful and powerful. The elimination of Armenians from Turkey after being there since before Turks arrived, was easily one of the worst historical events to ever take place in Turkey, so they should join with us in any commemoration of the victims. They should recognize this, but if not, we have an obligation to include them, painful as it might be on both sides, and work to educate them. This is where our ‘leaders’ need to take ownership and bold initiatives, unlike anything that has been done in the past.  This could and should be a very powerful, amazing time for Armenians. Our genocide museum should open in Washington, DC without fail, and every Turkish diplomat and official should be invited to attend.  In that they were the responsible party, they should absolutely be asked to mourn and commemorate with us. If they refuse, then even more shame will be on them.  
     

  304. “Genocide recognition cannot remain an internal Armenian event forever.” Wake up, it has long ago become an international event due to the grandiose efforts of Hye Tahd.
     
    “Armenians have been a part of Turkish history ever since the first Seljuk stepped foot in Armenia a thousand years ago…” Chronologically, it is the new-comer Seljuk Turks who have become a (gruesome) part of more ancient Armenian history, and not the other way round.
     
    “We have an obligation to include them [Turks]… and work to educate them.” For the thousandth time: how technically? With population ration 73:10 (in millions), borders with Armenia closed by Turkey, and Article 301 of the Penal Code that can prosecute anyone on the Turkish soil who’d dare to speak the truth about the Armenian genocide and genocides of other indigenous Christian peoples inhabiting Asia Minor long before the appearance of the Turks?

  305. Where there is a will, there is a way.

  306. Post your unsubstantiated advice in a Turkish forum for a change… After all, it was not the Armenians who brought calamity on the heads of “poor”, “compassionate”, and “human life-valuing” Turks.

  307. At some point, you all need to stop all the petty bickering over insignificant minutiae and think of the bigger picture, i.e. 2015. Again…sometimes this forum seems just like Siamese fighting fish in a small bowl. Get over yourselves…!  If you didn’t notice, Spain rejected acknowledgement of the genocide. Why? My guess is that this is because above all, it is an Armenian-Turkish issue…not a Spanish issue. Like it or not, Armenian leaders will have to sit down w/ Turkish leaders at some point to work this out. As they say, either you’re part of the solution or you’re a part of the problem. What do you want to be?

  308. Bigger pictures don’t happen out of the blue. It is the “insignificant minutiae,” that are in fact very significant, that ultimately shape the bigger picture. It is my and many other posters’ individual duty to confront anyone who denies, belittles, or self-depreciates himself on the issue of Turkey’s obligation to recognize the Armenian genocide. If you didn’t notice, Sweden, too, at first rejected acknowledgement of the genocide, and then adopted a resolution recognizing it. Why? Because in contrast to you, and you’re clearly in a petty minority, nations of the world realize that a crime against humanity, by definition, cannot be a strictly bilateral Armenian-Turkish issue. Otherwise, no term genocide would have been coined based on the study of Armenian and Jewish cases, and no subsequent UN Convention on Genocide Prevention would have been adopted. Like it or not, it is the Turkish leaders who will have to sit down with Armenian leaders at some point to work out the modalities of recognition, because the crime was committed by their ancestors, not Armenians. I am a part of such a solution. Did you make up your mind as to what side will you be on?

  309. to karakin-

    i have been advised to use capital letters on all proper names. i will do so reluntantly.
    Karakin, you say that Spain did not accept the word Genocide because they believed that it was an Armenian / Turkish problem.  imagine if that was said about the holocaust, the uproar this would have caused around the world.  you must be a bear, you are hiberanting. 
    at some point you must wake up….. and sign off.
        gerard

  310. Ummm Yeah Karekin… now you are dead wrong in this.. Genocide is not just Armenian/Turkish matter.. It is universal… Genocide does not relate just to us, it is a problem to face for all humanity.. this is a global problem… Karo already explained to you in great detail…

    Ehhhhhhhhhhhh.. shat dzvara qo het deal anela…

    Ches haskanum…

    G

  311. We all get excited and upbeat when a govt acknowledges the genocide. I get that. But then everyone becomes angry and freaked out by those who don’t. I get that, as well. Of all places, Israel should have been the first, but that hasn’t happened. The US, with a million or so Armenian taxpayers and with it’s history on offering help (via Near East Relief), should also be at the top of the list, but they are not. How come folks?  Virtually every book published on the genocide is in English, so it should be a slam dunk. We have to ask why, rather than belittle those who ask because someone doesn’t want to take the time to investigate the answer.  As I’ve said before, maybe we’re doing something wrong?  As I said…maybe. The world is a network….a giant web of connections. Turkey is not an isolated island, but then neither is Armenia. The idea seems to be that if you pull at one strand somewhere in the world, it will cause a movement somewhere else in the web, because that’s how things work. The flaw in this belief is that it will also benefit Armenia/Armenians, because they are also part of the human/world web, but thus far, there is no clear, documented evidence of this. The (positive) changes taking place within Turkey as of late have come about as a result of a new govt that we have no control over.  In other words, we have an opening to work with a group of people within Turkey, who, for the first time in living memory, seem to have a much more accepting attitude towards Armenians than any of the right wing, fascist, military ultranationalists of the past 90 years. This is a huge game changer, whether you’ve noticed or not. Armenians in Turkey are, little by little, emerging from decades of hiding under the camouflage of Islam and a Turkish surname to begin the process of reintegrating and reclaiming their heritage. Please don’t underestimate what is going on there or discount its importance. That’s where it matter most. Yes, keep the bigger picture in focus (recognition, acknowledgement, reparations), but support and encourage anything that helps push the ball in that direction, no matter how small. Rome was not built in a day. Neither will this. 

  312. “It is my and many other posters’ individual duty to confront anyone who denies, belittles, or self-depreciates himself on the issue of Turkey’s obligation to recognize the Armenian genocide.”

    I enthusiastically and emphatically second Karo’s statement. 
    They must be confronted everywhere and every time.

  313. Mr. Paraghamian: 

    thanks and regards.

  314. I agree that we should make it a goal to achieve genocide recognition in Turkey and the completion of the Genocide Museum in Washington, D.C. by 2015; sooner if possible.  It would be a shame for 100 years to pass without this accomplishment.  But at the same time, the century mark is just a number; one more than ninety-nine and one less than one hundred and one. A rallying point.  No matter the years it takes, we can never stop fighting for justice.  We can’t allow discouragement to overcome us.  Genocide cannot go unpunished.  This was the whole point of Lemkin’s work to define and name this crime.

  315. AMEN to that Boyajian.. I don’t care how many years is gone.. I will finght till the end and rest assure my children and children’s children will continue this fight.. I hope it does not last that long but IF it does, we will have an army of our young generation that will continue our fight..

    G

  316. Boyajian….’a shame’?  Come on….it would be much worse than that if 2015 came and went without reaching these goals. From that point on, the law of diminishing returns would take its toll. If it’s tough now to muster support around the world, it will be even tougher then. That’s why that cannot be allowed to come to pass. Some other groups insist on multiple anniversaries each year for any event that helped create their disaster, genocide or holocaust. We celebrate once. So, 2015 is a key date for Armenian history. It cannot be treated lightly or in a cavalier manner, as if, manana, manana…it will happen and be ok. It won’t – and I suspect you know that. And once again, if we don’t embrace the significance this anniversary and force our ‘leaders’ to do everything they can now to push for Turkish recognition, it will be our own fault.  Remember, Turkey is literally the only place on the planet where the genocide is verbotten. That’s where the epicenter of change must be. We know the story. The world knows the story, but in the place where it happened, they don’t. That’s the change that must happen. Dictating to them from outside isn’t working, so why not include them, educate them and expand their understanding….because this isn’t just about Armenian history alone.  It did not happen in isolation. As you know, Turks were intimately involved in the genocide and still are, whether we like it or not, and they will be instrumental to reaching our goals, whether we like it or not.

  317. to karekin-  re: your post dated march14/11
    1) israel has no interest in anything except israel.
       2) washington wants to… and will recognize the genocide once turkey runs out of money to pay the lobbyists spreading false information and lies year after year, specially before april 24.  
              gerard

  318. I agree with Karekin’s sense of urgency and the idea that our community, organizational, national and spiritual leaders must hear this urgency and take appropriate action on the cause of genocide recognition by 2015.  But why not 2011 or 2012 or 2013…?   The sooner the better, for sure.  I think this is what we all want.  In any case, the struggle should go on until we achieve our goal in Turkey and around the world.

  319. Well Karekin.. i agree with the urgency and that is what we are working on.. You also say we need to educate and create the change from within..and win ordinary Turks over.. well we do that as well.. One small but excellent example would be when Karo provided a detailed, well thought out, and excellent information and data Elif or whatever the name was of the Turk on this discussion who spoke big words but could not keep up his end of the bargain.. he preached the same thing.. it needs to start from within one by one… yet he could not be the first to start the process by acknowledging and apologizing himself…. so how much effort can one put to educate and make them understand? and should this burden be all on Armenians shoulders?

    Who knows… but as Boyajian said we will continue our fight no matter how long it takes…

    G

  320. CORRECTION********

    The name of the Turk who pretended to be someone intelligent but yet backed up as we suspected was Zeki……

    Elif is a Turk who actually is DIFFERENT than anyone we encountered here.. He is someone who understands and acknoweldges that the Genocide happened… This is an absolute breeze of fresh air among such people like Robert, Murat, Ahmet and Zeki and alike…

    G

  321. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // March 16, 2011 at 7:08 am // Reply

    To all our writers

    We should have a
    new Armenian-American Flag to say, 
    44 out of 50 states recognized the Genocide
    That’s more than 88%
    Thus, can any one tell me
    which are the states they didn’t recognise yet?
    Statistics are more important than many hard reading articles.

    FUll-STOP

    Sylva

  322. I agree Gayane, but as I’ve said all along, I support the goal 1000%, but disagree with how we are to get there, because I see current approaches as ineffective. Saying ‘as long as it takes’ gives everyone alot of leeway, but as you know, if you’re heading to any goal, say Chicago, you typically want to get there in a certain amount of time. Yes, Chicago will always exist and isn’t going anywhere, but if you get sidetracked and distracted along the way, have too many coffee stops and too many arguments, there’s a good chance you might never get there. Chicago will still be there, but you won’t be in Chicago. I categorically do not want to see that happen regarding 2015, but there is that danger lurking all over the place. This is why I think everyone needs to urge every ‘leader’ in our community to pay attention now, not later, to the importance of this date. This is not the time to dilly-dally. Has anyone heard of a committee in any community that has been formed for the centennial memorial and recognition of 1915 yet? I haven’t. Words matter, but so does timing. There is no time like the present to get this started in a formal way, as there is alot to do.

  323. avatar sylva-MD-Poetry // April 5, 2011 at 2:32 am // Reply

    Latest information from Armenian news…

    The real number of the Armenian inhabitants in Turkey. The Turkish Government conceived rather later that Jusuf Halajoghlu actually was implementing not only anti-Armenian advocating, but also an anti-Turkish. In this case he immediately was relieved of the Turkish History Institute director’s post. So what was the anti-Turkish in Halajoghlu’s statements? Halajoghlu didn’t accept the Genocide, but he claimed that 700-750.000 Armenians had been exiled, most of which died on the exile way. For the first time in Turkey the state official who also was considered as the scientist, acknowledged that the forced deportation of Armenians was made at the state level in Turkey. Halajoghlu didn’t accept the number of 1,5 million killed Armenians as a result of the Genocide, but on several occasions he put into circulation the number of 500-600.000. The Turkish Government suddenly realized that the information and arguments that Halajoghlu raised also can be evaluated as Genocide; other circumstance that the Turkish authorities had not liked was that Halajoghlu had gone so far in his anti-Armenian mania and had presented a quantity of victims in 1915, which, in Turkish perspective, should be considered mandatory low grades and no more than a small number could be announced, only larger one. But Halajoghlu went further in his anti-Armenian campaign and stated that 500.000 apostate Armenians are currently living in Turkey: somehow he wanted to justify his unsubstantiated numbers. But many people believed in his announcements over the country and began to look for their Armenian roots. Also there were people, who were being Turkish nationalist in nature, began to check their roots: all of a sudden not to appear as an Armenian. Even funny incidents were registered. It turned out one of Bahceli’s (leader of the MHP Party) six brothers live in Germany and has received refugee status on the ground of being a Christian Armenian. But Halajoghlu made a step that the Turkish Government could not forgive: he stated that the Turkish police took account of the number of apostate Armenian families state by state to learn a lesson from Dersim events in 1936-1937. Besides, there were registered not only those who were converted after the Genocide in 1915, but also the families who were converted a generation ago. This secret data is stored in registered Secret Archives of Space Room in the Turkish General Staff. Halajoghlu claimed the archives would show that the Alevi Kurds also had Armenian roots. It is noteworthy that the Alevis did not respond that statement and didn’t deny it as well. And a number of Alevi Kurds living in Turkey exceeds 3 million by the most humble estimate. However, there are sources and on-line publications, which try to reveal relatively the actual number of converted Armenians inhabitants in Turkey. Suchlike information will not certainly be considered completely true, but close to reality. Here is the controversial data: in Caradeniz-east and Ardvin are living 9200 families, in Diarbekir (Tigranakert), 1000 families, in Malatia, 3655 families, in Cayseri (Cesaria ), 5000 families, in Elazig (Elaziz), 1000 families, in Van, 4000 families, in Tunjeli (Dersim), 2000 families, in Siirt (Sgherd), 1200 families, in Shanleurfa, 3500 families, in Hatay (Antioch), 1100 families, in Bitlis (Baghesh ), 200 families, in Erzurum (Karin), 3000 families, in Erzinjan (Yerznka), 1300 families, in Svas (Sebastia), 2000 families, in Kahraman Marash, 3000 family, in Adeyaman, 1600 family, In Adana, 2000 family, in Mersin and Tarsus, 1200 families. But the number of apostate Armenians actually will be known after the opening of the mentioned archives. Then the people will have an opportunity to be aware of their past and roots. The Western Armenia (Historical Armenia) may not be considered as “Diaspora” because the Armenians live in their homeland. If in Diaspora the protection of the Armenians, Armenian native language and national deep-rooted traditions is the most important problem, in the Western Armenia the main problem is the process of voluntary “Armenisation”. Translation by the courtesy of  Ani Margaryan/ AWN team 27.03.11
     

  324. avatar gaytzag palandjian // August 25, 2011 at 4:41 pm // Reply

    Been away…to Armenia and  Spain  for near three months,put  together.Armenian piulgrimage  this time for various reasons,rather objectives to memorialize  my grandson’s legacy…published  part  of his poems .He wrote in English, I translated  into Armenian and spanish so his booklet  contains  three  of them,published   and will be  in bookstores for sale by now in yerevan.Also he had a band of 4 kids  in MA while studying  and in NJ.He wrote and  sang..the album  is 7 tunes also  reproduced  100  DC’s  selling  in a few  CD stores  in Yerevan.Proceeds from sale  of both go to Handicapped childrens centre  in AVAN  ARINJ  Pilatelpia-Philladelphia…  in Yerevan.
    By the by  I wish to make it stick  here.he was  pro Armenia…he once  todl  me -was good at  PC-I  kicked out  Turkish hackers  , from Armenian sites…granpa!!!!
    Getting back to above issues.
    Firstly  TO KAREKIN  AND AVERY  MUST  READ  THIS CAREFULLY TOO>
    I have lived near qtr century in Spain, now  in US  since 20 yrs…I know why Spain, regretfully  not  only has  not recognized  our Genpocide, but  also is reluectant   opening  Embassy  in Yerevan….can  you imagine  that.Ours  was opened  in Madird last  year, a small one  but  there  it  is.
    Cataluña  ;WITH ITS CAPITAL  BARCELONA  ::: H  A  S     OFFICIALLY ACKNOWLEDGED  IT  AT  PARLIAMENT…
    Spanish  foreign  Ministre  when in Yerevan ,,now  near 3  yrs ago declared  by end  of year-that  year-we shall have  our Embassy here.
    Imagine  many many smaller  countries  haave  theirs  in Armenia,while this Country  that  has importance  in EU  does  not…welll
    ONE  REASON  is  Madrid  is worried about  its  own  Basaue and Catalan  problems.Latter two vy for  independence  since  over atr century  -.Cataluña  in its  auiet  non militancy way, whereas the other,,,  well you know  how bestially terroritic  they are.Let me add  immediately i do not approve  of latter´s way,since  theirs  is really a BLIND TERRORISM.Whereas  our  Khent  kids  did  it  obnly directed to Turkish diplomats  and that they stopped when  our liberation actions  for Nk started,went  joined  them there.
    Best  to all  and I shall recommence to post  here again   now and then .
    rgds..
    Gaytzag  Palandjian 

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