During a dinner highlighted by pomp and circumstance on Aug. 28, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared that properties confiscated from minorities after 1936 would be returned.
Partial lists of buildings and houses to be returned were provided through the media, and included properties belonging to the Armenian community (Tuzla Camp, Selmat Han, etc.). Hundreds of immovable properties were announced to be returned to several dozen minority foundations. (If third parties currently own these assets, the net worth of the property will be estimated and the foundations will be compensated accordingly.)
Now some historical context: In 1936, the government had asked minority foundations to provide lists of their fixed assets. In the decades that followed, properties were confiscated by the government for a variety of reasons; these included properties that had fallen into disuse in remote areas. In the 1970’s, as Turkish-Greek relations deteriorated over Cyprus, all minority properties acquired after 1936 were also confiscated. Thus, thousands of fixed assets (buildings, schools, camps, etc.) were transferred to the state.
Reporting on the announcement, international news agencies and several Turkish newspapers failed to mention that only part of these confiscated properties is set to be returned under the new decree. Most of the properties to be returned are found in Istanbul and, in many cases, foundations have already taken their case to the European Court of Human Rights, where—precedents indicated—Turkey was bound to lose.
Hence, Ankara’s initiative looks more like damage control than anything else, and must be followed by broader, meaningful steps.
As a first step, Turkey must return all properties confiscated after 1936 without exception. These include properties across Turkey, even in areas where there is no longer a minority presence.
Moreover, the properties listed account for less than one percent of properties stolen from Christian minorities in the early decades of the 20th century. Turkey should begin the process of addressing that mass-theft by returning church properties confiscated during that period.
In this context, Prime Minister Erdogan’s initiative is a necessary but insufficient step.
We don’t really know that any properties will be returned.
And what is property without people?
Oh of course Erdogan knows very well that Christians and the entire world is not stupid enough to fall for this looser decree… 1936 huh? well that is nice… but HE and his govt has alot more to return and that is everything stolen and destroyed BEFORE 1936.. So anything less than that IS UNACCEPTABLE.. NICE TRY Erdogan…
Gayane
We may have won a skirmish but the battle with our adversary may be just a diversionary tactic.
You Armenians can’t decide. I remember that we were barbaric Mongols who were murdering Armenians for centuries and discriminating them. Now I have found out that during Ottoman times, you were very rich, you had thousands of schools and churches. Well at least you should be grateful that Ottoman system allowed you to have them if you are asking for some compensation. But both of them can’t be possible.
This issue , albeit in its very early stages, is beginning to look like the Akhtamar issues last summer… a piece of bread tossed to the floor while the “benevolent and tolerant” Turks watch the issue split the Armenian community. Personally, I am pleased that we have such issues before us to deal with. It reflects progress in the sense that our adversaries must take a public stand….even if that stand is coated in token efforts designed to pacify the western world.
There seems to be two schools of thought emerging in our community on these Turkish gestures… Akhtamar, Ani, apology campaigns, genocide observances etc. One school is happy that the door is “open” and at least some light is shining. There are limitations but its a start. The other school is mistrusting of the Turkish motives. They acknowledge, but reject the gesture at face value and view it more as a lure.
This is strangely reminiscent of the battle in our community over Soviet Armenia. Many in the non-Dashnag segments, advocated that Soviet Armenia is ours and we should embrace it as ours….even with the political and religious suppression. The Dashnag community, the standard bearer of Armenian nationalism( and anti-communism as well…remember the captive nations campaigns) rejected the Soviet nature of Armenia and remained neutral to negative on the country. I remember listening to these debates(in the pre posts and blogs era) as a teen and the energy sapped from disunity. The Soviets played us just as the Turks do.
The answer , of course , lies somewhere in the middle of the two edges. We should encourage these issues so that they may be reviewed, debated and resolved on a world forum, but we must respond to shallow, treacherous divisive attempts by the Turkish governments that intend only to do enough to appeal to the appetites of the EU and perhaps elements of the US. When the Armenian foundations submit their “lists’ to the government, it should reflect the truth on the thousands of properties. The same list should be given to the Congressional committee. Embrace the opportunity and challenge the limitations!! Let it a response with publicity and lobbying that links all these issues… return of churches resolution, genocide denial, Akhtamar, Ani, etc into one . Don’t let the Turks limit this to a piece of bread from the benevolent masters to the poor minorities.
@Mert,
The Armenians were relatively affluent in spite of the Turks and not because of some fantasy of Turkish benevolence. For many centuries prior to the Turkish arrival, the Armenians developed a highly independent, mercantile, skilled, educated, and progressive society. The Ottoman Empire set back the whole region for several generations when the Turks arrived into the Armenian homeland. It was not until the middle of the 19th century that this spirit was recaptured by the Armenians (the trend of progress that sprang up in Europe and spread but that the Ottomans?Muslim World desperately wanted to guard against…much like the Renaissance and Age of Reason…and then this led to increased Turkish/Kurdish belligerence, covetousness—acute economic jealousy- (why should that uppity Armenian rayah dare to prosper, want to be treated as equals, celebrate their own culture, religion, language, etc?). Armenians built with Armenian hands and Armenian money. Armenians did the jobs that Turks could not do at the time. There was no special treatment. When left alone, ignored, left relatively unmolested, and not too overburdened by taxes and mistreatment, the Armenians prospered (though this was seldom the situation in the Ottoman Empire).
It seems Turks/Turkey has still not learned because the situation with the Kurds is now manifesting itself in a very similar fashion to what occurred in the mid 19th-early 20th century to Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks in the Ottoman Empire. The only difference is the Kurds, being Muslims and numbering several millions, might at the very least be less vulnerable to outright genocide…though I would say the last few decades have laid the groundwork.
Mert, your comment above seems to suggest that both barbarism by a ruling group and wealth in a minority group can’t exist, but it can and did. Like Stepan says above in an unrelated comment: “The answer , of course , lies somewhere in the middle of the two edges.
This conflict has many facets and is at risk for overstating and minimization from both camps. Yet the bottomline remains simple:
The modern Turkish nation was sole heir to the Ottoman Empire, with all its glories, iniquities, debts and obligations. It has a debt to pay to Armenians for deportations, confiscation of property, massacres, starvation and the consequent elimination of an indigenous population from its homeland. Though Turks point to Armenian rebellions and civil war (talk about exaggeration!) as the cause for the need to take this extreme ‘security measure’, none of this can justify the actions taken against Armenians. And Turkey can’t really be surprised, after almost 100 years of dishing out denial and distortion of the truth, producing and paying for dubious historical accounts, and using political influence to avoid guilt, that Armenians have been forced to add a new path toward justice: property claims.
From my point of view, Turkey created this problem when it decided to engage in criminal acts against its own citizens in order to handle its ‘minorities problem.’ Armenians have the basic human right to cry foul and demand justice, and Turkey has the obligation as a member of the United Nations aspiring to EU admission to pay this debt. I have no doubt that Armenia and Turkey can resolve the issue of compensation once the truth is acknowledged, and then normalize relations as neighbor nations. A complex issue that starts with a simple solution: Tell the truth.
Stepan, at least there’s movement!. Something I haven’t seen before.
“Now, what does all of this mean in this great period of history? It means that we’ve got to stay together. We’ve got to stay together and maintain unity. You know, whenever Pharaoh wanted to prolong the period of slavery in Egypt, he had a favorite, favorite formula for doing it. What was that? He kept the slaves fighting among themselves. But whenever the slaves get together, something happens in Pharaoh’s court, and he cannot hold the slaves in slavery. When the slaves get together, that’s the beginning of getting out of slavery. Now let us maintain unity.”
Martin Luther KIng
Boyajian JAN.. I could not say it more eloquenty and right on the point…I loved it so much that I would like to repost this comment… because that is my point as well…
TO ALL DENIALISTS and TURKOPILES….please read this…over and over and over and over….
From my point of view, Turkey created this problem when it decided to engage in criminal acts against its own citizens in order to handle its ‘minorities problem.’ Armenians have the basic human right to cry foul and demand justice, and Turkey has the obligation as a member of the United Nations aspiring to EU admission to pay this debt. I have no doubt that Armenia and Turkey can resolve the issue of compensation once the truth is acknowledged, and then normalize relations as neighbor nations. A complex issue that starts with a simple solution: Tell the truth.
AMEN TO THAT .. AMENNNNNNNNNNNNN…
Stepan jan– you said it my friend… beautifully presented the facts and differences….bravo….
Mert— you said
You Armenians can’t decide
OH BUT WE HAVE… we have decided that we are no longer going to be quite about this…that our fight for justice will continue until TUrkey is sooooo weak from pressure she can’t handle it anymore.. sooner or later she will break… no more humble, nice and quite Armenians that your ancestors took advange of and used it against them by dumping Genocide on those poor souls… no one goes unpunished for such a crime and TUrkey is NO EXCEPTION…we will shout so loud and so long that your govt would not know where to turn to anymore….. you can run MERT and all denialists but you can’t hide….. UNLUCKY you people.. but oh well….
70% of turkey is illiterate,lazy,confiscated (STEAL)from theintelligent,industrious Armenians.Question in point–Calouste Gulbenkian,ARMENIAN,from scutari owned 50% of the turkish petroleum co.by bribing (baksheesh,turkish bribe)He went to Iraq and when they discovered vasts amounts of oil(discovered by an Armenian oil engineer,when no body believed him.SOoo old Calouste was the catalyst in getting the world oil partners(THIEVES) together,and for that,he recieved 5% of all the oil in Iraq.MERT: DO YOU GET THE BIG PICTURE.
Gayane, I am glad my words agreed with you.
Darwin, thank you that is exactly my point. The Turks provide the token stimulus and wait for us to react in our divided manner;thus rendering us ineffective and enabling the Turks to look like a progressive power. This is a time for our leadership to be united. The Armenian foundations must present a complete and clear picture of our properties.
Boyajian
Armenians have been forced to add a new path toward justice: property claims. There is nothing wrong to claim your personal properties if you have any sort of evidence. But claiming land etc. will only endanger Armenia. I wouldn’t even object if some Armenians want to have citizenship and live in Turkey. as I acknowledge that this not only my country but your country too.But If you want to throw the Turkish yoke out What can I say? As far as I understand most Armenians are exremely nationalist and this will harm only Armenians more than anyone else. If Turks, Russians or another sizable nation go in to this direction,They may pose threat to other countries,However they may be seen foolish but your case is different.
I acknowledge that when I read the headline announcing the Turkish decree to return Christian and Jewish properties, my heart leapt. I got excited at the mere idea that Turkey was returning anything. Could this be the start, I wondered. Could this be what we have been waiting for?
Of course going beyond the headline, you quickly realize that the scope of the ‘return’ is disappointing for those of us waiting for the scales of justice to swing back again and restore us to our homeland a la Sevres. But could it be a crack in the wall of denial? As Stepan and Darwin suggest, I can’t help thinking this is our opportunity to turn our united energies toward that crack and drive an ever-widening wedge into it, crumbling the wall forever. Is less than 1% worth getting excited about? I think so, if it comes with the realization that it signals a potential change, a chance, and a hope for more to come. It’s a ‘micro-step’ in the right direction, that should wake us all up to the possibilities that are ours if we follow it with unwavering steps in the same direction. We have a rightful claim.
Monastras: Thank you. You acknowledge that the land is yours and mine. Yet you can only envision a scenario where Armenians repatriate to a Turkey where Turks lose nothing and Armenians become loyal tax-paying citizens of the country that murdered their ancestors and stole their homeland. What is new about this? We lived many centuries paying taxes to your Ottoman ancestors for the privilege of living on our own land with few rights or protections. How does this constitute Turkey paying its debt to Armenia? When will Turks accept the idea that repentance and redemption may come with some pain, but the reward of peace with neighbors will make it all worth while? Or don’t you believe that murder and theft are crimes that require a payment?
Another excellent questions posed by Boyajian jan to monastras
Monastras: Thank you. You acknowledge that the land is yours and mine. Yet you can only envision a scenario where Armenians repatriate to a Turkey where Turks lose nothing and Armenians become loyal tax-paying citizens of the country that murdered their ancestors and stole their homeland. What is new about this? We lived many centuries paying taxes to your Ottoman ancestors for the privilege of living on our own land with few rights or protections. How does this constitute Turkey paying its debt to Armenia? When will Turks accept the idea that repentance and redemption may come with some pain, but the reward of peace with neighbors will make it all worth while? Or don’t you believe that murder and theft are crimes that require a payment?
Monastras, who continues to open her mouth when she continueously refuses to answer a question posed TO HER DIRECTLY numerous times…Here it is again Monastras…still waiting..
{Guest – Monastras
2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
(posted @Hurriyet)
Yes or No ?
We are all ears…
Monastras says:
I wouldn’t even object if some Armenians want to have citizenship and live in Turkey
Really?? I am soo blessed to know that Khanum Monastras would not object me being a citizen and live in Turkey as if Turkey was orignally hers and she bestowing such grand gesture toward little poor Armenians is somewhat Godly .. very generous of you Monastras..but i would repose the question…because I, among many descendents of GENOCIDE SURVIVORS who miraculeously were saved under your barbaric and cruel ancestors hands, would not object if SOME Turks want to have citizenship and live in Armenia.. You do know that where you live or your family lives used to the living habitants of my ancestors… you are aware of that right???? So land is ONE HUGE way of claiming back what was stolen…end of story..
Have a blessed day maa’m…
Gayane
Joseph,
You state that Armenians were well off before the Ottomans set them back. Please then, tell us how the Armenians faired when they were under the yolk of the Byzantines! Don’t forget to mention how Armenians were litereally taxed to death, how the Byzantinian soldiers came and took whatever they wished at random, as well as the constant rapes and beatings (don’t forget the tortures and outright killings)!
Alex,
You state that 70% of Turkey is illiterate, and that we are lazy and can only steal from others! Before my personal loss, I would have had some choice retorts for you. But in your case, your comment is ludicrous that you’re simply not worth responding to. BTW, when you write the name of a nation, you capitalize the first letter (FYI).
It’s truly sad that there are nothing but attacks here. Will there come a time when we can also discuss the properties of Molems (Turks, Azeris, etc.) in Armenia that have yet to be returned and/or compensated for? Just out of curiosity, would anyone tell me how many Turks and/or Azeris live in Armenia? How many Mosques remain in Armenia? Thank you.
Oh Roberrttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!! YOU keep asking questions that have been answered numerious times.. many times.. why do you keep asking the same thing over and over?? don’t you have anything better to say or do?? well i guess not.. because i want to share with you the following: :) hw you used a story to show you have changed yet come to know nothing has changed about you.. you still are the notorious denialists Robert… so are you Ready???
I would like to take everyone to the memory lane and share the journey of Robert’s posts…to show the progression of how many avatars you used and the change in your style of writings…
… as I want to show everyone how creative but not so smart you are…..
Robert
August 20, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
Avery,
It’d sure be nice if you knew what you were talking about! Armenia lives for handouts!! Must I remind you of Armenia’s economic standing (only Madagascar is worse)? Without my tax dollars going to one of the most corrupt and religiously oppressive nations on the planet, and also without the Russian military there to protect you (LMAO), Armenia would be the typical professional beggars that they’ve been for the past century! So cry me a river and read a book for once (not the typical ARF dashnak Armenian propaganda)!
Robert
August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
I very recently just lost my brother to heart disease. I’ve come to a point in my life that hate and this constant “one up-manship” is wrong. I still believe that we need to debate if we are to settle our differences and be able to come to terms and reconcile, but ever since my personal family loss, my feelings and outlook towards life have truly changed. It doesn’t matter whether you nor anyone else believes me. Life is too damn short to continue this nonesense. I guess what I’m trying to say to you, and to the rest of you on this site, is that I’m sorry for any smartass remarks I may have made, as well as any personal insults I may have said in the past. It was wrong and not a mature approach to deal with a complex issue. Sometimes, one’s feelings just well up from deep inside and come forth before one has a total grasp of those feelings, and translated into words that may be hurtful, ugly and/or misconstrued. I think that we’re all guilty of this to varying extents. If you all can forgive me for my past and recent transgressions, I certainly, and already have, forgiven all of you for your negative contributions as well. I believe that we all can be friends. I extend my hand to you all in burying the hatchet and taking those first important steps to becoming friends once more. I don’t mean to ramble (it’s not always easy to find the words one feels), but there it is. I’d be more than happy to come back to give positive inputs if so invited. If not, then I’ll understand and bother you no more (no grudges held either). Sometimes we all have to take chances in life!
Robert
August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
To the editorial board:
I’ve said/written some cruel and neagative things about you. For this I sincerely apologize. I have no real excuse other than the frustration of having my comments censored or deleted, and thus being unable to defend myself at crucial periods. Regardless though, those reasons are no excuse for some of the horrible things that I had written to you. It was wrong of me and I’m sorry.
Robert
August 23, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
Thank you for your kind words. I know that they were sincere. May we all strive to settle and overcome our differences and once again become the brothers and sisters God intended for us to be.
Robert
August 27, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
HovsepM,
You’re wrong in your assumption about me. I’ve already written that I wish to provide positive input for all parties, so that an amicable solution can be reached and agreed to by all. I have a lot of very recent personal pain to deal with, which has given me a new insight. Although I have not given up on my beliefs of historical facts (as backed up by my grandfamilies documentations and verbal accounts of that era), I also believe that all sides suffered………… This is why a historical commission is so important (comprised of both Armenian, Turkish and neutral scholars), to review all archives and hopefully get to the truth of what truly occurred. I don’t believe that only Turks should be portrayed as being evil (when you know as well as I do that crimes were committed by all), and thus be solely expected to provide an apology (what about an apology from the Armenian side for their actions/roles?). the Turks and Armenians living outside (e.g. Europe and America) don’t have a full grasp of what they feel in Turkey and Armenia. This is a major factor that constantly creates problems. They say that they’re happy and “wish that those living outside would stop causing trouble”. This goes for both sides! I for one feel that they’re correct. We who live here in the US need not stick our noses into their lives over there. Let them settle their issues! Perhaps then the NK situation and any other problem can thus be settled, with new freindship treaties between Turkey, Armenia and Azebaijan signed, creating cooperation in many areas (economical, scientific, cultural, etc.), with mutual advancement and peace in the region.
AND YOUR LAST POST MATCHEd TO YOUR AVATAR ABOVE….ahhhhh.. guess the mourning period is over Robert…
Robert
August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
You can’t have your cake and eat it too! Keep in mind that the more which is made of this, the more of a backlash it will provide when it comes time for settling the NK situation. Rest assured that Turkey, Azerbaijan and Moslems world-wide will NOT go gently into that good night! They will pay close attention to what PM Erdogan is doing AND what the reactions from Armenians and Greeks will be, and how they will reciprocate. My advice thus, is to stop grumbling for everything on the planet, and act like adults.
Otherwise, you simply give impetus for what I mentioned earlier.
and do you remember what i said to you Robert? let me remind you just in case you forgot to read it or simply overlooked it…
I was a bit skeptical myself to read about such a revelation in Robert The Turk…. i knew it was abit too good to be true but i gave him the benefit of the doubt.. however, if he is pulling our leg with this sad story, he better not come back on these pages or else he will be called out so many times with such force , that he will regret playing with people like that…
Guess you could not help yourself Robert. well it was your choice.. so be prepared…
gayane
August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
TO ALL: JUST IN CASE the avatars do not come through in my last comment, I want to ensure that each avatar used by Robert the Turk except the last two comments have different style and different colors..
Black and white
Pink and white
Red and white
Purple and white
Strawberry red and white
Robert— you said
It’s truly sad that there are nothing but attacks here. Will there come a time when we can also discuss the properties of Molems (Turks, Azeris, etc.) in Armenia that have yet to be returned and/or compensated for? Just out of curiosity, would anyone tell me how many Turks and/or Azeris live in Armenia? How many Mosques remain in Armenia? Thank you
I am sorry i must have flown in from out of space because the last i remember Turks and Azeris had nothing but half piece of clothing on their backs when they arrived from Altai mountains and Mongolian steppes .. now Robert is claiming that there were some sort of take over of Muslims’ properties and money and that they are due comensation….. ok ok ok.. let me regain myself from laughing so hard at this claim of his.. ohhh ..wheww.. ok i am good now.. .now… i would like to ask historian Robert the Turk..
Do you mind sharing and enlightening us as to what and why do we have to compensate you denialists and sore loser Azeris for??? for what? and with what???
Please go ahead…we are all ears…