Erdogan ‘Apologizes’ for Dersim Killings, Insults Diaspora
ISTANBUL, Turkey (A.W.)—Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan apologized today for the killings in Dersim (now Tunceli) from 1936-39.
The apology on behalf of the Turkish Republic came on the heels of the release of documents showing that military operations had killed thousands in the Dersim region in the late 30s. Erdogan showed the documents during his speech and implicated the Turkish leadership at the time in the massacres.
According to Anatolia News Agency, Erdogan referred to the Dersim killings as “the most tragic incident of our near past.”
Erdogan laid the blame squarely on the Republican People’s Party (CHP), which was the single party ruling Turkey until the mid-20th century. Erdogan called on the leadership of the CHP, currently the main opposition party in Turkey, to apologize for the massacres.
“Is it me who should apologize or you [CHP leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu]? If there is the need for an apology on behalf of the state and if there is such an opportunity, I can do it and I am apologizing. But if there is someone who should apologize on behalf of the CHP, it is you, as you are from Dersim. You were saying you felt honored to be from Dersim. Now, save your honor,” Erdogan said.
“Dersim is among the most tragic events in recent history. It is a disaster that should now be questioned with courage. The party that should confront this incident is not the ruling Justice and Development Party [AK Party]. It is the CHP, which is behind this bloody disaster, who should face this incident and its chairman from Tunceli,” Erdogan added, referring to Kilicdaroglu.
‘Don’t compare me to the diaspora’
In response to an accusation from the CHP that the move is a prelude to apologizing to the Armenians for 1915, Erdogan said, “You are putting me in the same basket with the Armenian Diaspora. Shame on you! How dare you put me and the Armenian Diaspora in the same basket!”
‘Hypocritical and insincere’
“The current discourse is highly hypocritical and insincere. At this very moment, more than 10 dams are being built in Dersim. To build dams in order to flood the region and displace people were items of the reports in the 1930′s about the ‘Dersim problem,’” said Dr. Bilgin Ayata in an interview with Armenian Weekly Editor Khatchig Mouradian.
She added, “While under the AKP government, the last phase of the systematic destruction of Dersim from 1938 is being implemented and carried out today, any reference to the ‘Dersim massacres’ by Prime Minister Erdogan serves first and foremost to portray and frame the state intervention in Dersim as a past event, while in fact, it is being completed at this very moment.”
Ayata, who is at the Free University of Berlin, noted that many important sacred and religious sites of Alevis and Armenians in Dersim have been flooded since last year because of the dams. “People in Dersim regard this as the last phase of the destruction of the Dersim culture. By bringing up the Dersim issue, Erdogan is not only hunting for votes among Alevis or abusing this issue in order to discredit his political opponent Kilicdaroglu, he is actually killing two birds with one stone by diverting the issue of the dam building in Dersim that his government is responsible for. I also do not think that he ‘opens up’ the discourse. In fact, he sets limits to the discourse of Dersim 1938 by framing it as a ‘massacre.’ The term ‘Dersim massacre’ is only an improvement in the discourse if your starting point is the Turkish official ideology.”
“If your reference point is the International Genocide Convention from 1948, it is merely a sophisticated continuation of denial policies, as the case of the mass violence between 1936-38 easily fits the criteria set in the convention to constitute genocide,” concluded Ayata.
Background
Tens of thousands of men, women, and children were massacred by Turkish troops during the destruction of Kurds and Zazas of Dersim (now Tunceli) in 1937-38. For decades, this genocide was denied and framed as a “suppression of an uprising” by the Turkish state. In November 2009, the Turkish Republican People’s Party deputy chairman, Onur Oymen, said that the destruction of the Kurds in Dersim was an example of the struggle against terrorism, and a heated public debate ensued. Columnists and political figures harshly criticized Oymen’s statement, and even high-ranking Turkish officials called the events of Dersim a “massacre.” Some thought Turkey was finally coming to terms with at least one horrible chapter of its past.
For the video of Erdogan’s speech, click here. For an article on Dersim and Turkish discourse, click here.








RVDV- i believe i already expressed this before in my previous post.. WE, as in Armenians DO NOT want to discuss other Genocides on this forum..
As my friend Avery said, just like Bulgarian Genocide brought up by another Turkophile, The spaniord Crusades/genocide is just another way to deter everyone from what is being discussed.. and that is: OTTOMAN TURKS GENOCIDE of THE WESTERN AND EASTERN ARMENIANS..please cease from briging up other issues … Also, I agree with Avery.. if you and Karekin and every other Turkophile and Denialists want to discuss other GEnocides please do create a commission/group OUTSIDE OF this forum and discuss at your hearts content… but don’t mix and match what happened to my ancestors with others…
Thank you
RVDV: Copy-and-paste method from a dubious online publication is not the wisest way of maintaining dialogue. No one defends what the Spaniards and, more so, the diseases they naturally brought, did to the Native Americans, but however hard you copy and paste, at the end of the day what you do is you dance around the central point: Spanish Conquistadors did not arrive to the Americas in the 16th century with the intent to ‘destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group’. Their primary intent was colonial expansion through trade and the spread of Christianity through indigenous conversions. You risk making yourself a laughingstock proving the yoghurt’s black.
What’s deplorable is your attempt to juxtapose events unrelated to what your own ancestors have done to native peoples of Asia Minor, the Middle East, and the Balkans. It looks cheap, I’m sorry to say, when someone attempts, as Avery put it, to dissolve his co-ethnics’ crime ‘into the great caldron of killings’ ever committed by the mankind. The mankind has defined genocide legally back in 1948 (based, by the way, on mass extermination of Armenians and Jews). Genocide is the instance whenever there’s intent to kill a national group. Turks undeniably had such intent with regard to Armenians back in 1915-23.
Consider also colonial wars in which colonizers and natives clash (as between the Spaniards vs. the Incans, Aztecs, etc.) and forced deportation into sunny Syrian deserts and mass physical annihilation of Armenian countrymen by their own government. How’s that for you?
No Avery, I’m not in the group that says everybody committed genocide. Far from it, and I would never dispute that the Ottoman Empire and the CUP engaged in a deliberate act of genocide against Armenians. That was their goal. No question about it. Remnants of their evil legacy survive in Turkey to this day, and is a scourge on Turkey.
As for knowing whether or not there was genocide in the new world, have you ever read the treatises of Bartolomeo de las Casas? If not, you should. He offers a very good, first hand account of what happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomé_de_las_Casas
gayane,
“i believe i already expressed this before in my previous post.. WE, as in Armenians DO NOT want to discuss other Genocides on this forum..”
Is this the policy of the Armenian Weekly editorial staff? I’d like to hear from them since they run this forum. I also don’t remember voting you as a spokeswoman for Armenians in this forum.
A blanket policy of not discussing other genocides strikes me as short sighted. There could be legitimate reasons to discuss the others with respect to ours. I personally don’t see a problem with it considering how other genocides are discussed by the world, and ours it not included on the list! Also, I think it would help us Armenians to understand other genocides. I think we’ll find that there is something unique in how all genocides went down.
I am quoting Avery:
Turks and their friends who are complaining about the Criminalization bill, about “freedom of speech”, about “restriction of academic freedom” and all the other quote-unquote freedoms: the same sort of bill criminalizing the Denial of Jewish Holocaust has been Law in France since 1990. Did you Turks object to that law to when it was passed ? Unquote
For decades Turkey had & still has the famous article 301 & others.Turkish Criminalisation is acceptable but French one is not… What a mockery…
Avery,I have a question:for a very long time now,when I comment on TDZ,only 5-6 words of mine are published out of the lot.I tried writing first & then pasting but again no success.I even tried with different computers to no avail.Does it happen same with you?Do you have a solution?As for Hurriyet,they’ve sort of banned me for ages now…
The link to Bartolomé de las Casas’ life and work as Protector of the Indians only reaffirms what everyone knows: in the process of colonial expansion through trade and the spread of Christianity through indigenous conversions, the Spanish Conquistadors did commit atrocities against the native peoples of the Americas. However, committing atrocities with the aim to destroy the indigenous peoples as a national, ethnical, racial and religious group was not the motivation that brought the Spanish colonizers to the Americas in the 16th century nor was it their intent during the centuries of colonization nor was it technically practicable to accomplish with thousands of Conquistadors vs. tens of millions of Indians.
The Ittihadists’ premeditated and executed state policy against indigenous Armenians in 1915-23 pursued no other goal but their deliberate destruction as a national, ethnical, racial and religious group.
VTiger, regarding the TDZ: I have not had any issues of sentences being cut off.
I have done both: short comments typed in directly and longer ones typed into Word.doc, then copy and paste (easier to check for typos and such).
Every so often they do not post a comment but most of my comments get posted.
The case of parts of your posts disappearing: I doubt it is because of what you have posted. If they don’t like something, they flush the whole post (at least in my case).
Why would they bother posting only part: easier to flush the whole thing.
I have noticed certain posts of others (not yours) as well at TDZ that end abruptly mid sentence. The only reason I can think of is technical: their software may have a peculiar bug; maybe the post gets truncated randomly. But since it has never happened to me, I have to ask why not. The only other thing I can think of is your computer or ISP: try other browsers: I use Firefox for TDN most of the time, Sometimes Chrome. If you have access to other computers, maybe you can experiment. Could be unreliable ISP service between your area and Turkey: different ISPs use different routes/routers to get to destination.
I don’t post to HDN any more: one can only post a few sentences. Most of my comments got flushed. HDN has always been more of a partisan mouthpiece for the State: any of my posts that were even mildly critical of anything Turkish never saw the light of day.
Can you be in favor of free speech and at the same time penalize people for free speech & thought? That’s the true dilemma for Turkey, which is why they have no leg to stand on when criticizing France. That said, France has taken a stand on truth, history and the right not to be bullied by lies and fabrications. Maybe now the Turkish neocons will recognize that their fallacies are not supreme? Of course, they will react, but it will only be in defense of their lies, not a truth known by the entire world.
In passing the Bill today at the Assamblee Nationale of La France,criminalizing denial of the Armenian Genocide on French territory,many deputies took to the podium.One such was Patrick Devedjian, whose very to the point short discourse stripped to the naked all tries by Turkish denialsits and or sympathizers thus:-
in 1919 their own ( the Turkish Military Tribunal) indicted and condemned the responsibles of the Armenian Genocide.Also see ¨A Textual Analysis of the Key Indictment of the Turkish Military TribunalInvestigating the Armenian Genocide.¨
It is plausible that the French have today reaffirmed and made it known globally what transpired then. This humane and act justifies and proves to the civilized world that such horrendous crimes will not remain in the oblivion, to say the least.
Let us hope that at long last the world -that ows justice to Armenians-will respond one by (countries ) joining this latest initiative by France and pick up the challenge.
Next in line definitely are neighbour states,close by….
Avery thanks.I as well use Firefox.Have tried different computers & since I travel lots,I’ve tried from different countries & always my comments are cut to 5-6 words only.This is forcing me to be more creative & express everything in 6 words.I’ll try & change my name & see what happens.I love your posts of TDZ & keep up the good work.
Karekin,very well said.
Random… you misread my post to RVDV.. please take the entire context vs just that one sentence… I was referring to the whole Spanierds vs Ottomans matter that RVDV brought forth..I was not saying other Genocides are NOT IMPORTANT… I may have been vague in my comment… but hopefully you get it now..
I just don’t want any nationalist denialists bring up other unrelated killings/Genocides to what we are discussing..THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. This form is not a forum where they can hash out which Genocide is worth discussing and should be discussed..and dilute the actual discussion… they can create another forum for that…and when one brings up an issue of why we don’t concentrate and condemn others for carrying out GEnocides that does not relate to what we are discussing, then yes i will tell them that we are not interested…
Hope you know that I am not against speaking of other GEnocides…but i am not going to allow one to use other Genocides FOR SOLE purpose of diluting the truth about the ARmenian GEnocide…
HOpe I made myself clear
VTiger- I posted on Today’s Zaman so we will see what happens… as Avery said, they can flash your comment all together and I bet they do.. to make it seem legit, they have a statement on their site.. see below….
Your comment will shortly be read by the Today’s Zaman Internet editorial team. If it is selected for publication it would normally appear on the site within the next few hours. Due to the high volume of emails received by us we cannot guarantee that your comments will be published.
Their forum is soo not intuitive.. very hard to follow… guess they are not UP their technology to a level where it is as clear and precise and easy to follow as this forum.. but then what do you expect….
Gayane: couple of things..
I just don’t want any nationalist denialists bring up other unrelated killings/Genocides to what we are discussing…
I’m not a Turk, so I can hardly qualify for a Turkish nationalist. However I am FROM Turkey, and if loving the country I am from makes me a racist nationalist in your eyes, then so be it. I have said from my first post that I want the genocide to be recognized. I never said “events of 1915″ or any of that stuff others do. I called it genocide from day one. You can call me many things- (turcophile, etc.- I don’t care.) but I don’t see how I am a denialist. The only reason I brought up the Spanish and French genocides was to show that other nations who, RIGHTFULLY, condemn Turkey of their genocide denial, have a history of genocide denial themselves. You don’t have to like me, you don’t have to respect me, but please don’t make things up about me- you don’t even know me. I have never defended Turkey’s pathetic attempt genocide denial, nor have I defended article 301 of the constitution that was brought up.
RVDV: I think I proved convincingly that comparing the Armenian genocide with the atrocities committed by the Spanish Conquistadors during the colonization of the Americas is gibberish. Major difference is the lack of intent to destroy in the case of the Spaniards. Please stop. If you’re from Turkey and admit that the genocide of Armenians was committed by your barbarian Ittihadist ancestors, then please concentrate solely on Turkey and let a few other genocide-perpetrating nations concentrate on their crimes. Fair deal? By the way, if you so like to focus on a few other genocides, why won’t you acknowledge that some of the genocide-perpetrators apologized for their crimes and paid reparations to the victims, e.g. Germany?
@RVDV, I understand what you are saying brother.
I don’t see where Gayane called you ‘racist’, RVDV.
And we have already discussed the evolution of Denialists thoroughly: it is no longer feasible to outright deny it; that one wore out, and is thoroughly discredited. (read my post about what Mr. Sassounian said). So the denial has become more sophisticated. You may or may not be a denialist: only you know for sure.
But I have read your posts since you first appeared on this thread. Sorry, but the picture is not clear.
which article @TZ Gayane ?
Avery jan.. it was about Erdogan’s complain about France’s vote on the Armenian Genocide Denial Bill…
Escape from our Site
You pen is full of our blood
There is no humanity in your heart
I don’t know
Why some souls are here
To teach Us what…?
If it was not genocide
Tell me
It was what…!?!?
It was a dance
Opening the mother’s womb
To do C-Section by scimitars
Enjoying seeing
Stillborns
It was a dance and play
To hurl innocents in the rivers
In hays
Bedouins saw them with their eyes…
Still narrating to their offsprings
They know very well it was genocide
It was a cabaret
Enjoying rapes with virgin girls and killing them later…
Even pakistani soldiers in March 25 1971
could not do that
they raped and left without killing…
it was a dance
To cut their heads with the scimitars
It was music to hear their cries …
Their prayers their chants
God lost his brain to hear all
God went mad
But devils still singing
There was no genocide
I no longer believe there is humanity
Now i think how the Armenians still living with such criminal race
Still denying what they did…
I wish I can enter in your astrocytes
and understand
Who made your genes
My god Help me if you’re still above
Help those who doesn’t understand
The psychology of orphans
We don’t hate them
But we want to know what they did
This is not denials only
This is another crime against humanity…
Shame on you all awake … You have No heart … No god
SP
Avery: You may or may not be a denialist: only you know for sure.
I can respect that comment, because you have a point, I have not always been clear with the points I have been trying to get across. I want you and every Armenian poster here to know that my intentions here are not to disrespect anyone or anyone’s ancestors, or deny genocide using sophisticated methods. It was genocide, it was an unjustifiable act of violence perpetrated by my ancestors on innocent people. If my apology means anything to you, I am sorry.
Paul: Not really. The intention initially was not genocide, yes, but it evolved into genocidal acts. There were on and off acts of genocide throughout the Spanish New World, or at the very least, ethnic cleansing. Agree to disagree I suppose. I didn’t think bringing up other genocides would make everyone so angry, I just wanted to get the point across that many people, Turks, French, etc., condemn others of genocide when they haven’t come to terms with their past. My point is, it is easier to point out others faults than to accept your own. If you don’t want to talk about other genocides, I won’t talk about other genocides. You said Germany. If Germany passed this criminalization bill, I would have no complaints. They committed genocide, and had the integrity to apologize, pay reparations, and ask for forgiveness. My government could certainly learn a thing or two from Germany.
RVDV: Re: “My point is, it is easier to point out others faults than to accept your own.” If Turkey accepted its own fault, there would have been no need for other questionably flawed nations to point out at Turkey. Re: The [Spanish] intention initially was not genocide, yes, but it evolved into genocidal acts.” Not any killings are considered genocidal acts. Read definitions in the Genocide Convention and International Court of Transitional Justice. Spaniards committed atrocities, but they were never aimed at deliberately destroying the ethnic group, neither in the beginning nor in the process nor at the end.
RVDV you said:
I didn’t think bringing up other genocides would make everyone so angry, I just wanted to get the point across that many people, Turks, French, etc., condemn others of genocide when they haven’t come to terms with their past.
I get your point. You are right. Many nations have committed atrocities against others throughout history and have yet to come to terms with their history.
I hope you are also getting the Armenian point. Turkey has used every trick in the book to deny this crime and avoid justice for almost 100 years. One of the more modern incarnations is this effort to say all nations have a ‘past’ and try to minimize what Turkey did. We are always ready to defend against such ploys because we have to be. For us the genocide is not over; it has simply morphed into an assault on truth. It seeks to undermine our identity and our right to justice and to condemn us into oblivion through assimilation.
However, the day of reckoning for Turkey keeps coming closer. This most recent vote in France is only one indicator, among many, that the tide is turning. Your participation in this forum and your acknowledgment of the genocide is another. Armenians have been badly injured as a nation but we have fought to survive against great odds. After a genocide that removed us from our homeland, after 70 years of Sovietization, and 100 years of diasporan existence, we are still here and still Armenian. Turkey needs to recognize that we will not disappear no matter how many different ways she tries to minimize our claims. Justice will come.
It takes courage to come to terms with this history. I give you credit for beginning this journey and I hope you and those like you in Turkey will be safe.
Please, for the readers and writers on this site who are defending their democratic Turkey…
Let them help million of Armenians who are turkified and lost their identity
Like lawyer Fatheia Cetin and others
Help them…Let them treat their tension.
I feel lucky that i don’t live in Turkey…I don’t walk on bones of my ancestries…
As Arab poet Al Miar’ri wrote his famous stanza…almost one millennium before.
As Armenians…We are free where ever we are
We are respected, loved, praised
They look at honest dedicate talented people…helping every one…
So please…If you are good Turkish citizens
forget our site and help those who need your help …urgently
Help to return their lost identity …
Help to open their schools…speak their mothers tongue…
Help them to pray in their churches, which was confiscated by your grandfathers…
They don’t need money … They are asking for their identity … They are still orphans…
You can never teach us to change our attitudes
Because our homes was build on the stories of genocide…
Every day we heard a new story…
Still I hear new ones after almost a century
How many Bedouins married Armenian orphans …
They called them Mariam (Mary…Jesus’s mother’s name) because they were Christians…
See how the Arabs respected Armenians…decades ago…
they were non-educated but born with principles (shahama: Arabic word)
not to hurt their religion, their identity…
Even our girls reached Saudi Arabia…
And now their grandchildren are proud to say they had Armenian grandmothers…
They say they were beautiful dedicated organized and clean…loving kind…
Always they tell me “Dr. she looked like you”.
While you see your president Abdullah Gul refuses to confess that his mother Advia:Adawiya in Arabic (nee Satoglu) is Armenian and he jailed the journalist who wrote the story for 11 months.
Also Erdugan’s wife is Kurdish and he kill Kurds…tomorrow his children will be against him…nothing can be hidden under the sky…the sun will rise always…
See the deference between Arab Muslims who are proud about having some Armenian genes and the Turks (who are Muslims by name only) and keeps denying their ethnicity, and not only denies, but jails the person who copied the information from an M.P of CHP (Canan Aritman)…and who gave that information was Gul’s father-in-law…
Differential diagnosis is important not only in medicine but in every subject…
to reach conclusion to diagnose and treat…any problem any illness.
Turks they don’t know how to diagnose their mental problem they keep shouting…
stay zealous…they want to sigh with their sick mind…refusing reality…
refusing that they carry few criminal genes which should be treated urgently…
Sylva
December 24, 2011
The point is, we CAN openly talk about Spanish genocide in the new world, here and in Spain, without being penalized for being anti-Spanish. We CAN talk about slavery in America, without being seen as anti-American or thrown in jail or fined. We can talk about Belgian atrocities in the Congo, too, without fear, or apartheid in South Africa. But, in Turkey, even a winner of the Nobel Prize cannot mention the genocide openly, without being threatened by the deep state. This is the problem Turkey refuses to see and pretends does not exist. If you want a level and honest playing field, then set an example and do it yourself first.
Bull’s eye, Karekin!
Karekin: There’s no historical event such as “Spanish genocide in the new world”. There’s also no legal definition such as “Spanish genocide in the new world”. Spaniards were not motivated either before or at their arrival to the Americas to deliberately destroy the Incas or Aztecs as a race. Atrocities and wars did take place in the process as they’d occur elsewhere where colonization, on the one hand, and resistance to it, on the other, collide. Neither the Spanish conquest nor the slavery in America nor Belgian atrocities in the Congo fit definitions of genocide as in the UN Genocide Convention and ICTJ. Enough already.
Paul: Did Karekin call what Americans and Belgians did genocide? No.
There’s no historical event such as “Spanish genocide in the new world”.
One of the most important yet highly disputed pieces of information regarding the intentional ethnocide of indigenous populations in the Americas was possible intentional use of disease as a biological weapon, which was first posited by British forces under the command of Jeffery Amherst
Some historians argue that genocide, a crime of intent, was not the intent of European colonization while in America. The Reverend Stafford Poole, a Catholic priest, wrote: “There are other terms to describe what happened in the Western Hemisphere, but genocide is not one of them. It is a good propaganda term in an age where slogans and shouting have replaced reflection and learning, but to use it in this context is to cheapen both the word itself and the appalling experiences of the Jews and Armenians, to mention but two of the major victims of this century.”
You cannot say “There’s no historical event such as “Spanish genocide in the new world”.
Was there genocide, many people say yes, many people say no- you can find strong evidence to support each view. It is a grey area.
If wikipedia can’t give that question a definitive answer, no one can lol.
Very astute comment Karekin!
Thank you Armenian weekly for the redesigned site. I like it.
Merry Christmas to all!
RVDV- you simply went off tangent… where did I call you racist??? i am confused… however, what you bring forth may be legit to show what other countries have done but like Paul and Avery explained Spaniards never DID have an intent to wipe out an entire nation based on race, religion, etc..etc.. etc.. no need to repeat the same thing over and over..
RVDV: Wikipedia is the most unreliable source of information, because anyone can edit/alter it. If I were you, I wouldn’t base my arguments on this dubious source but look, rather, into how genocide (including the AG) is defined, for example, by the International Center for Transitional Justice. I’ll repeat it for the last time and stop, but you may go on repeating the mantra of “Spanish genocide in the new world”. Most scholars believe that the overwhelming cause of the deaths of aborigines was epidemic disease and not the intentional destruction of the local population based on national, ethnical, racial, or religious origin. It was not the intent of the conquest of the Americas nor such intent ever arose in the course of colonization, therefore, atrocities committed during colonization and resistance wars cannot be accounted for genocide. It is also practically unachievable to mass slaughter tens of millions of people by the hands of just thousands of Conquistadors.
If you choose to close this pointless debate, please consider answering the following question. If you think that, in addition to trade and the spread of the Christian faith through conversions, the Spaniards had intent of mass murdering the natives based on their ethnical origin, what objective other than deliberate destruction of Armenians as a race did the Turks have?
Paul: You are right, this debate has gone on too far. Let’s just agree to disagree. However, I will also repeat this for the last time, the intention of the Spanish INITIALLY was NOT to intentionally kill the native population. However, later on, to remove any threat that could stop or slow down their exploitation of raw resources, they deliberately and intentionally killed, and forced marched the native population to places far from their homeland. In closing, the Spanish simply clumped all Native Americans together, they killed on the base of color, not ethic origin. Oh, you said the Spanish had the intention to trade and spread Christianity. The latter part, yes, they did try to spread Christianity. Trade? You must mean ruthless exploitation. Speaking of dubious sources…
http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.11/1columbus.html
http://www.lcsc.edu/elmartin/historybehindthenews/spring%202005/delema.htm
http://books.google.com.tr/books/about/American_holocaust.html?id=RzFsODcGjfcC&redir_esc=y
Two university websites, and a book, to name just a few of the thousands of sources. You really think my argument was based on Wikipedia?
Again, I can see why some people would say it is not genocide, and you can make a convincing and legitimate argument towards that. However, you have to concede that a very legitimate argument can be made for people who share my opinion on this matter. I really could not care any less what the UN considers genocide, the same UN who stood by and did nothing during the Bosnian genocide- see Srebrenica massacre ( don’t even TRY an tell me they did their best to stop Srebrenica from happening).
Finally…. what objective other than deliberate destruction of Armenians as a race did the Turks have?
From what I understand, the Turks were under the impression that by exterminating the “Armenian spies” who were “working for the enemy,” that it would help Turkey turn the tide of WW1, because obviously, the reason the Ottoman Empire was losing had nothing to do with the fact that they were up against far superior armies and technologies (reeking with sarcasm).
RVDV you are just full of jokes and sarcasm are not you?
you are talking about ignorant and criminal turkish government , do not wast your time to educate not to commit genocide,any opportunity they will have ,they will do it again, they are accepting committing genocide in dersin in 1936, not to the armenians to the kurds ,not to the kurds ,to the syrian, not to the syrians to the iranians, not to iranians to the jews,turkey is a blood thursty criminal country
Pardon me, but whether or not other nations committed atrocities and did not admit to them or pay for their crimes has no bearing on the Armenian claim against Turkey. This line of discussion serves those who wish to dilute the tragedy of the Armenian Genocide or students who delve in depth into the larger question of incidents of genocide throughout history. The latter may be a worthy pursuit, but it doesn’t add much to the question of justice for Armenia, and the former is simply a despicable ploy used by those who would deny the truth.
Needless to say, you are spot on again. However, I think we need to understand why things like genocide happen. It’s not just blind hatred- hating someone and being capable of killing them are not the same thing. Murdering someone is a whole new level of hatred- mass murder is just something else- if we can understand the circumstances that elevate hate into mass murder we can assure that these things never happen again. Clearly, considering all the genocides after the AG, we still have not solved the issues that can lead people to commit such crimes. We can’t change the past, but we can learn from it.
Exactly Boyajian jan…
RVDV- this matter have been discussed, researched, discussed, researched again and again and again.. historians already established as to why Ottoman Turkey did what they did.. we understand and we know what happened.. no need to rehash the same thing when it is arleady proven.. the ONLY thing that is missing from this equation is the apology, punishment and reperatation, period..
I think it could be agreed that any directive from a Govt. (like Armenians, Jews,etc have) ordering the annihilation of any sub- group is genocidal in nature and that Govt.must take full responsibility for supporting it. Without direct Govt. Involvement the crime still exists but becomes “mass-murder-massacres-mass-killings,etc” and the problem is they should never be mixed for discussion. It’s apples to oranges.
I don’t agree with limiting the discussion of Genocides to the AG. We diasporans have been urging the Israelis for years to recognise the AG and probably today, they will vote to institute a “remberance day”. They recently admitted that for years, they rejected recognising the AG because it would “dilute” the remembrance of the Holocaust-they admitted it was wrong, why shouldn’t you?. We support Cambodians, rwandans,darfurans and any victims of Genocide (by Govt. Directive)
including, RVDV, Native Americans, where instances of Genocide did occur.though the “bio-warfare” was not a Govt.policy). The difference between the US and Turkey is that we admit what we did and you can read all about it at any library.
I don’t understand why the Turks can’t show the courage (like the Kurds recently did) and simply admit that their “young Turks” were really just a bunch of homicidal criminals who themselves were condemned to death by Turkey, not for their genocide but for their corruption because they sold-off the supplies for the
Army leaving 10′s of thousands of their own soldiers to die of exposure, disease
and starvation in the snow. We Armenians didn’t (and couldn’t) kill them (though after what you did to our families-we would have)-your own Govt. did.
Maybe that’s what they’re afraid of you finding out?
RVDV: As promised, I no longer reply to your aberrations re: “Spanish genocide of the new world” theme.
It’s discouraging that you could not care any less what the UN considers genocide based the conveniently singled-out case of Srebrenica massacre of Muslim males. But your personal opinion essentially doesn’t matter on the issue of international definition of genocide, because your country is a signatory to the 1948 UN Genocide Convention, thus, to the definition of genocide that the Convention contains. Show, at least, some understanding and respect to the fact that the very term ‘genocide’ that was used in the Convention was coined based on studies of the Turks’ mass annihilation of the Armenians and Germans’ mass annihilation of the Jews.
Re: what objective other than deliberate destruction of Armenians as a race did the Turks have? You state: “From what I understand, the Turks were under the impression that by exterminating the “Armenian spies” who were “working for the enemy,” that it would help Turkey turn the tide of WWI.” This is a very weak and an easily refutable argument. If there were “Armenian spies working for the enemy,” the government of a civilized nation would isolate those few spies and not savagely mass slaughter women, children, elders, and even the unborn ripped out their mothers’ wombs. But this is what civilized nation would do. We’re dealing with the Turks…
Well said Paul jan… i too was a bit confused by RVDV’s comment on Armenian spies, etc etc… did not know if he was joking or being serious… guess he was being serious? if so, then it shows how little he knows.. especially when he claims to be a history major… who knows.. these Turks/Kurds turned to Turks are very confusing…
he wrote ‘(reeking with sarcasm).’ at the end of the paragraph.
so, presumably he was being sarcastic with the spies and such.
(poking fun at the contrived Denialist excuses…)
confusing is right though. maybe it is meant to be confusing. You understand, right Gayane ?
The “reeking with sarcasm” part I put on the end was to show I was joking, and how weak the “its not genocide” arguments are. Sorry if it wasn’t clear enough.
Ayo Avery jan.. haskatsa…
RVDV, when you think you understand why Turkey unleashed this violence on my people, please tell us. If that understanding also leads you to the cure for the ‘disease’ of denial that still plagues your country, please share that as well. In the mean time, thanks for engaging in this discussion of a very painful topic and your willingness to acknowledge the truth. How were you able to be free of the tyranny of the official Turkish account of what happened in 1915?
Boyajian: thanks for the kind words.
How were you able to be free of the tyranny of the official Turkish account of what happened in 1915?
Well growing up in the United States helps. I mean, I love my country, but I am not blind to obvious historical facts. Unwillingness to openly discuss every aspect of your nations history shows that you have something to hide. With the effort and money the Turkish government spends on keeping the Armenian genocide unrecognized in the worldwide community, they could really be doing things to help the country.
Thank you Paul for your comment above. It is very clear and understandable.
( the fact that the very term ‘genocide’ that was used in the Convention was coined based on studies of the Turks’ mass annihilation of the Armenians and Germans’ mass annihilation of the Jews).
The detain killings were known for Yeats now, and there are dozens of mass graves in Turkey today. If there is Detain killings it proves above all others to numerous others prior and eve after Detain. The mass graves and detain shows the typical Turkish methodology of dealing with obsticles.even after WwI.
Erdogon is denialist and his anti diaspora stance clearly represents the denialist behavior pattern among the well trained Turkish polititions.
Shame is on him, and his statement which is a call of desparation which had truth closing on his government’s (ottoman)) scloset full of lkeleton.
He uHis sppology is more of a political. Statement to boost his image, even due he is appologizing even late for drain as well.
Why not appologize for all of them????
If any of the great Turkish leaders, since the late ottoman and even before were so greate then they would of already appologized for the country’s past to begin this.
And if Erdogon was greate, he should of shown it by acknowledging and shown qsome consern regarding at least Safarov’s exterdition rather than critisizing the diaspora. But he chooses to side with his partner’s in Azerbaijan instead.
For Dersim alone, Erdogone is taking himself off the case for the sake of politics, but those before him which dozens who perceeded his presidency, they remain guilty.
Erdogone is missing the point by showing his anti diaspora face in his statement, since most diaspora are the direct descendants of those who lost lives.
Turkish ottoman government h e g way in displacing Armenians and other natives since 19th century and invested ontheir political careers to deny crimes. Thy done it so long that they love their jobs now and they don’t like to undo their nationalistic and igoistic legacy. So old fassion.
I have to give the guy credit for telling one truth after all these years.
But, all said, Turkish ottoman appologies are long overdued and leaves erdogon to be the first to even bring up one of the many atrocities that took place in eastern boarders of the region which used to be poppulated by native Armenians not far back in history.
That leaves dozens of other leaders who came before him guilty.
The late bloom of Erdogon’s appology is a susspicious political move.