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French Parliament Passes Bill Criminalizing Armenian Genocide Denial

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PARIS, France (A.W.)—On Dec. 22, the French Parliament approved a bill criminalizing the denial of the Armenian Genocide and rendering it punishable with a year in jail and a fine of 45,000 euros ($58,000).

The French Parliament approved a bill criminalizing the denial of the Armenian Genocide.

“I will vote thinking of Hrant Dink,” said one Member of Parliament as he concluded his remarks.

“We are not punishing any country, but we are fighting against genocide denial in our country,” said another.

“We are taking part in the mass destruction of Armenians when we allow its denial… We are voting in the name of Armenians who sought refuge here. How can we look in the eyes of our fellow citizens of Armenian heritage, while we know that there are those among us who deny the suffering of their grandparents?” said yet another Member of Parliament.

“Racism is not an opinion, it’s a crime,” said another.

The MPs who spoke highlighted the stories of the survivors who arrived in France after the genocide, and talked about the significance of honoring the memory of the victims, the survivors, and their descendants, as well as safeguarding historical truth.

Several proposed amendments that aimed at diluting the bill were voted down.

More than 2,000 Turks demonstrated against the bill outside the French Parliament building.

The French Senate is expected to vote on the bill in March 2012.

Turkey recalls ambassador, announces sanctions on France

Official Ankara announced it has recalled its ambassador to France. According to Turkish State Television (TRT),  Ambassador Tahsin Burcuoglu will promptly return to Ankara.

Ankara also announced sanctions on France. “As of now, we are canceling bilateral level political, economic, and military activities,” said Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, according to Zaman. “We are suspending all kinds of political consultations with France” and “bilateral military cooperation, joint maneuvers are canceled as of now.”

A special delegation of Turkish officials had arrived in Paris on Dec. 19 to prevent the bill from passing.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu had likened the move as one from the Middle Ages. “If this proposal is legislated, France will pioneer the return of the Middle Ages mindset to Europe,” Anatolia News Agency quoted him as saying. The law would “create a new dogma about understanding history, to forbid alternative thoughts. This is the mentality of the Middle Ages. The adoption of this mindset in France is the greatest danger to Europe.”

Addressing his government officials, Davutoglu said it would be “out of the question to leave unanswered an attempt by any country leader, government, or parliament to dishonor our country and nation.”

“There will be irreparable consequences in all bilateral relations,” the undersecretary of the Turkish ambassador to Paris, Engin Solakoglu, told AFP. He said the proposed law was a “hostile act” and that “all cooperation with the French government, all joint projects, will be frozen.”

In contrast, Turkey’s Human Rights Association’s Committee Against Racism and Discrimination had issued a press release and had initiated a signature campaign calling on Turkey to unite against genocide denial, not against the French Parliament.

In 2001, France adopted a bill officially recognizing the 1915 events as genocide.

ANCA welcomes vote

Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) Executive Director Aram Hamparian offered the following comment on the vote:

“Today’s overwhelming vote by the French National Assembly reinforces the growing international consensus—and the mounting pressure on Turkey—for a truthful and just resolution of the Armenian Genocide.”

“Closer to home, France’s stand underscores the need for our own American president and Congress to finally reject Ankara’s gag rule on the proper condemnation and commemoration of this still unpunished crime against humanity.  We mark this occasion by urging President Obama to honor his pledge to recognize the Armenian Genocide and the House leadership to bring the Armenian Genocide Resolution, H.Res.304, for a full floor vote.”

103 Comments on French Parliament Passes Bill Criminalizing Armenian Genocide Denial

  1. avatar Leo Manuelian // December 22, 2011 at 10:22 am // Reply

    Hurray for the French!!! I take back everything I said about them!!!!

  2. avatar Gohar Panajyan // December 22, 2011 at 10:38 am // Reply

    HURRAH, FRANCE! THANK YOU TO FRENCH PEOPLE! 
    Thank you on behalf of MY GRANDPARENTS….too.
    Congratulations, compatriots- the irreversible process has alraedy started!

  3. Hurray for you then!!!  What else would you do for France ?!?

  4. Shame on you France for succumbing to the 500,000 armenian votes in the upcoming election. HISTORY SHOULD BE DECIDED BY HISTORIANS, NOT BY SOME LOW LIFE POLITICIANS IN A 3RD COUNTRY WHO CANNOT OTHERWISE GET A JOB.

  5. very good first step, but French Senate has to approve the bill also for it to become Law.
    last time the Assembly passed it, and the Senate let it die.
    Nevertheless, there  appears to be more of a momentum behind it now. Let us hope nobody throws a monkey wrench into the gears.

  6. Why, Dan, then of course you object to it when any country’s politicians call the ‘tragedy’ that befell the Jews a ‘Holocaust’, right? Politicians shouldn’t talk about history, ever.
     
    Newsflash, buddy: there is a historical consensus among the vast majority of world historians and the International Association of Genocide Scholars.
     
    Get this through your caps-lock filled head as well: when parliaments speak about the Armenian Genocide, they are not ‘weighing in’ on ‘history’–they are opposing a crime against humanity, which it is their duty to do.

  7. The Shame is on you “Dan Ashbya typical Turk just like your government denying the truth and history! Should be decided by the historians! Haha that’s why the Turkish gov spends millions of dollars to erase the historical facts! You scumbags will do anything to deny the truth! Look how all these years to deny the truth your government tries to use scare tactics! Shame and blood is on you and others who deny the truth you low life! You guys denied it for 97 years now but soon you will have nothing else to force to be denied. Just like Egypt just like Iraq just like Libya sooner or later the real truth will come out and you guys can’t deny it any longer! Cowards! 

  8. Good for France calling Turkey’s bluff and not giving in to threats and thuggish intimidation. The Turkish stance is hypocritical, criticizing France all the while having Article 301 on its books (what the hell is insulting “Turkishness” anyway?). Turkey calls for an open debate (further insult to victims) but refuses to ratify the peace roadmap with Armenia. Turkey refuses to exchange diplomats with Armenia when even India and Pakistan conduct official diplomacy. Turkey criticizes French colonialism while celebrating its own brutal history. Their position is becoming exposed and by their protests, threats, etc Turkey is rapidly and unwittingly becoming the biggest proponent for genocide recognition. Now that they are trying to bring a religious slant into this is only going to make further recognition more feasible. Keep it up. 

  9. THANK YOU TO FRENCH PEOPLE! 

  10. Thank you to the French Parliament for standing up for the truth.You are a liar Dan Ashby. You can’t handle the truth! You can hide from th truth for so long. You should be shamed of your self and your Turkish ancestors who committed the awful crimes against humanity through out history. Turks today are still continuing miss treatment of others based on religion differences.

  11. This is what courage looks like. Remember, France is also a NATO ally. And France had a bigger role in the Libya intervention than US did. And yet  you don’t hear any French people saying “Turkey is a key NATO ally, blah blah blah.” Shame on the Cowardly–Cowardly–Americans in politics.

  12. Harray FRANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE TRHE BEST AND MOST FAIR !!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE YOU!

  13. My mother had seen the genocide.I am very greatful to France and its peopel for standing up to justice.I urge the American goverment to stand up and speak out the truth and accept the genocide.One day they might need the help of the Armenian nation,and we will remember,the good and the bad.How can you deney a genocide?To France i have great respect and gratitude for standing up and accepting the truth.The Armenian nation will never forget their kindness.Also they were the very first country to arrive in Arnenia to help durring the earth quake.God bless France.VIVE LA FRANCE.

  14. Well Dan Ashby, the thing is hundreds of historians, journalists, researchers, lawyers, human rights activists, etc have all branded the genocide as just that; a genocide. But a historian (or any other profession) can never “decide” on a historic event. Thousands of historians could stand on the streets and shout “it was a genocide” and it still wouldn’t “decide” anything. The authority to make decisions is in the hands of the politicians, that’s the way it goes.

  15. Vive la France!! To my cousins in Altforville I love you!!!

  16. Deep down we all know that something terrible must have happened in 1915 as after centuries of living together and sharing streets, markets, schools and weddings our old neighbours left their ancestoral homes and became immigrants in far away places. Those who stayed in Istanbul were much loved and respected but life for them could not have been easy. We do want to know what really happened and not from individual survivor accounts or gore-filled news paper stories. I want to know how it came to be 1.5 million and why as I can not understand how it could have been more acceptable if it was 500,000 or 300,000 or even 10,000. I also want to know the role played by the other ethnic groups in the region and see who really benefited from the demise of the Armenian community. I fear that the bill passed by The French Parliment will be counter productive as it will only agitate the defensive and chauvinist traits of my society. I was lucky to grow up in an environment were Turks, Jews and Armenian worked and lived together without fear or anger but in the shadow of unspoken truths. For the truth to be spoken we need more dialogue and interaction not more dogma and hostility. 

    • Adali,

      Your interest in the truth is commendable.

      Maybe you can start reading the works of Turkish scholars who affirm that colossal crimes and Genocide were committed. Umit Ungor has written two recent works: one on the destruction of Christians in Diyarbekir, and a recent book on the confisation of Armenian wealth. See also Taner Akcam’s works, including his recent book with Dadrian on the Turkish tribunals. Try the Radikal interview of Halil Berktay, no great friend of the Armenians, in 2000 or 2001, in which he says he cried in an American University library when he saw the photos and materials proving the Genocide, all of which were denied to him as a college student in Turkey. See also Selim Deringil, Fatma Gocek., books published by Regip Zarakolu (now in prison), Ahmet Ihnsel, Fuat Dundar.

      You don’t want to see the gore-filled parts. No sane person does. But the cruelty of how Armenians were killed by state actors is a vital part of your education. It belies the claim everywhere made to this day by the TR that the state ordered its soldiers and cadres to protect Armenians, but that things just got out of hand through some vague never-described process. It shows instead that the state licensed murder, and murder in the most humiliating and painful ways.

      Read any of the hundreds of missionary and diplomatic accounts and survivor stories. You can start with the memoirs of Bishop Bilakian, who in one chilling section descrbes a Swiss woman driven mad by a field of bayonetted Armenian women and children, so mad she picks up and treasures the corpse of a dead baby.

      These were the stories that many of us did not hear until after our silent and joyless grandparents died. We wanted to know why they never celebrated a birthday, and could not joke or laugh. Why it was hard for them to hug their own family members.

      You imply that the Armenians of Istanbul did not suffer and do not suffer, or suffer little. They live in fear, and are dwindling. They can never tell any Turk the truth, even after they leave, for fear the police will knock on their family doors.

  17. Well Done France!
    Now it is Canada’s Turn!

  18. avatar Leo Manuelian // December 22, 2011 at 2:35 pm // Reply

    Adali-
    If you want to know more, make a point of reading Turkish historian Taner Akcam’s “Shameful Act”. He explains it all in detail – how and why.

  19. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 22, 2011 at 2:37 pm // Reply

    Please  note.Above GAYZAG  is  not   me,THOUGH IN MY OFFICAL DOCUMENTS erroneously so written.My name to be correctly pronounced  in English, would spell G U Y T Z A G .
    Again due to officials  mal interpretation it was spelt  with an ¨A´.However…
    People like Dan Ashby or whoever  are pro Denialism,I have this to say.It is  not too far  that official Turkey  will send it delegation to come and kneel or pray at Tsitsernagapert.I have opined  in this respect before…
    But they will be  very much UNWILLING  FOR COMPENSATIONS!!!
    Even after  U.S. presses more  re return of all Armenian churches,monasteries,schools, hospitals.These, ANYHOW  WERE BUILT  BY ARMENIANS  with their own  funds…
    So the Turkish people  are not REALLY WORRIED ABOUT  THAT. THESE GO BACK TO LAWFULL OWNERS.They  may have to worryu about COMPENSATION  for BLOOD  MONEY  though.tHIS HAS PRECEDENT AND MUST ALSO BE ENACTED(in time,yavash yavash) by and by.  First  repairs  of Akhtamoaar, St. Giragos, then above RETURN OF PROPERTIES.
    Again  they should not worry too much,there are ways to make payments…
    The OIL  transit Duties  (some 1.6 BILLION dollars per annum) and  that  is  an amount that  was in media  some 5/7  yrs ago…it  may  have increased.
    part  of that  should be directed to Armenians.Indeed,once the Govt.s  that  patronize  the OIL  companies. This  as a   most  convenient  way.As otherwise expect  that Turkey(like Germany) sweat  and pay from their  own coffers(always near empty) or from their own pockets the population…an impossibility.they rather give their lives than pay  FINES, PARA, CASH.One must  study their character a bit  better to understand why I think so. None  the less  IT WILL  NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR US ,FOR THAT  TRANSIT  DUTY IS PERPETUAL, OR PERMANENT  AS  LONG  AS  T HE OIL FLOWS THROUGH.. 

  20. Adali,

    Here are some thoughts and suggestions in no particular order. I am assuming you live in Turkey, and as such some of these sources may not be easily available to you (which in itself says something about the matter) but nevertheless, here it is.

    Books by Taner Akcam, Vahakn Dadrian and Richard Hovanessian are quite complete and will give you a good introduction.

    Some good websites are http://www.armenian-genocide.org/, http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/

    There are many others, but these would make a good introduction.

    Unfortunately, you cannot ignore the gore and the brutality of the event, because that is the nature of the event. It was most violent so much so that we the survivors suffer the effects 100 years later.

    As to who benefited from the destruction of the Armenians, it is very clear it was the CUP (Ittihatci’s) and their cohorts. There is evidence of this. No, my friend Armenians in the Republican era were not much loved at all. They lived (and still live) in great fear. They are constantly denigrated and hated. Many have emigrated since 1923. The forceful transfer of capital continued in the Republican era. I would urge you to look into events such as the Wealth Tax (Varlik vergisi), the events of September 6-7 (1955) and the issue of Armenian Foundations (Vakiflar) that continues to this day.

    Lastly, Turkey cannot stop the passage of laws in other countries so that their own chauvisits will not react. They will anyways. Truth is out there and is spoken by a lot of courageous Turks who do it risking their lives. For this we are eternally grateful and pray for their well being and safety.

    Best regards.

  21. The time is long overdue for US to learn an important lesson. If can’t lead, at least follow. Yes… agree… the time is not now, the time was yesterday. Thank you France.  

  22. Adali,
     
    Courageous and eloquent words.
     
    Unfortunately for fair-minded people like  you, your government has appropriated and perverted the idea of dialogue to mean, “Okay, you guys suffered. We also suffered. Let’s therefore call it even.”
     
    That’s why we reflexively reject it when Turks use that term.

  23. Glad that the French Lower House passed this, but please realize that this does not even begin to make up for the French betrayals after WW 1. 

    Armenian volunteers, for example, from the US and elsewhere (gamavors) fought in the French army, but they and all our people were betrayed by France in the final analysis.
     

  24. avatar Maria Perouze // December 22, 2011 at 4:01 pm // Reply

    Alleluyaa,, es un gran regalo de Dios por el año nuevo y Navidad, estoy muy muy feliz. 
    Gracias gobierno de Francia y gracias a todo el esfuerzo armenio y mundial para llegar poco a poco a la verdad y la justicia..Feliz fiestas a todo el mundo..un abrazo. Maria Perouze 

  25. I envy you French People, your President and Lawmakers have balls, unlike our president and lawmakers in the USA.

  26. avatar Random Armenian // December 22, 2011 at 4:43 pm // Reply

    Adali,
    I assume you’re from Istanbul. Do you still live there? Did you post your comment from Istanbul? What’s the take on the French bill on the street?
    Regarding the stories and newspaper accounts. The survivor stories are important because they are part of the whole. They are also our connection and understanding of what happened. They are reports from ground-zero an can fill in details which diplomatic accounts may not be able to describe fully. They cannot be ignored and need to be included along with any and other sources. The Armenians of Turkey also carry these stories. Some like in the diaspora may not know them because the survivors just could not bring themselves to tell their kids.
    The stories also establish why much of the diaspora exists to begin with.
    As for the newspaper stories, they may not be usable as primary sources, but they show that the atrocities were known by the outside world. It also establishes a contrast between what was known, and how what was forgotten by the world in the decades after.
    I am concerned about the nationalists in the country right now. The manner in which the Turkish government is reacting to this could be feeding the ultra-nationalists into a frenzy.
    “I was lucky to grow up in an environment were Turks, Jews and Armenian worked and lived together without fear or anger but in the shadow of unspoken truths.”
    I think this captures the contradictory, conflicting and very bipolar character of Turkey today.
    ” For the truth to be spoken we need more dialogue and interaction not more dogma and hostility.”
    Dialog with the Turkish government is next to impossible. Governments tend to trail changes in society. I don’t trust Erdogan, Gul, Davutoglu nor the rest of the gang to have a fair and open dialogue with Armenia and Armenians in general. They completely ignored the diaspora in the protocols and tried to drive a wedge between the two Armenias. These guys are intent on playing games.

  27. Why this overexcitement?  The bill still needs to pass the Senate and be enacted into law by the President.

  28. yea this is fucked up man. if turkey accepts the truth then Germany haves to say they had a role helping ANOTHER genocide…….and i dont think they ever want to admit they had any part in it.

  29. avatar Isaac Shadian // December 22, 2011 at 5:53 pm // Reply

    History has decided. Historian will write what they want, the way they want. but reality is what happened to my grandparents by the Turks!
     

  30. I wonder why France does not pass a bill saying” denying any genocide is unlawful” including their own!!!!  France should face their own history before making any comments or laws about other countries’.

  31. the president of U S A who was elected in the year 2000 said ,i coat ,if elected president,i would ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic suffering of the armenian people,signed 2 19 2000,thank  you mr ex president for fulling the armenian people,a honest president kips his promise     thank you mr president of FRANCE for your honesty and to the honest people of FRANCE,
    VIVE LA FRANCE LE PRESIDENT ET LE PEUPLE FRANCAIS, QUE DIEU VOUS BENISSE 

  32. avatar Maral Mardiros // December 22, 2011 at 6:59 pm // Reply

    Vive le peuple français. Merci pour la dignité et la justice.

  33. ‎1. Alas, France is officially not the country it once as was anymore; you say “there is no Armenian Genocide” in France and you go to jail. RIP Voltaire. As a Turkish citizen, I say “what happened in 1915 is a genocide” and I do not go to jail, even though I face a lot of tension. These are facts.
    2. Turks and Armenians take French politics too serious regarding a matter which has nothing to do with France. What happened in 1915 is an issue that only Armenians and the successors of Ottomans solve. Sarkozy is just another opportunist who can do anything for political benefit.
    3. Sooner or later, Turkey will have to explain what happened to the Ottoman Armenians which constituted more than 10% of the population just a over a century ago. Now they are 0.1%. It is what it is; it is a genocide according to the definition by UN.
    4. Using (maybe abusing is a better verb) 1915 for political aims is immoral.
    5. In terms of realpolitik, denials in Turkey has a stronger hand right now, because France is not only punishing an “idea”, but also being hypocritical about the term “genocide”. Thus, what France did is not serving Armenians’ aims or rights. Sad but true.
    6. The majority in Turkey deny the genocide because they sincerely believe that there was no genocide, because of the brain-washing that took place since 1915. However, with the invent of new and modern communication tools, it’s harder than ever to hide the truth than ever, so more and more Turks learn the facts everyday. The government will face a stronger and bigger Turkish community who doesn’t back the Ittihat ve Terakki Party. Turks are facing that even Ataturk himself was a racist who did not want any Armenians, Greeks, Jews, Kurds etc. in Turkey. The vast majority still loves Ataturk, because they think he was a war-hero who wanted nothing but peace. That was not the fact indeed. 

  34. Sorry about the terrible grammar; I should have checked before sending it :)

  35. M E R C Y FRANCE !!!!!! YOU WILL REMAIN IN OUR MEMORY FOREVER.

  36. avatar eduardo jose kilidjian elmasian // December 22, 2011 at 7:27 pm // Reply

    Merci beaucoup à toute la France pour défendre les droits humains!!!!viva la france!

  37. Ladies and Gentlemen: again, good news, but too early in the game to pop the Champagne. Great symbolic value, but this Bill has no teeth, yet.
    French Senate must also pass it  for it to become Law. 

    Let’s wait for it. Cross you fingers. 

  38. good comments to Adali - Ani, Alex, Random.

  39. Thank you for the reply and I will certainly make use of the resources and continue with my efforts to better understand all aspects of this event. It saddens me deeply to think that every Armenian I should meet shall be burdened with either fear or anger and in some cases vengeful hatred while most of us Turks feel no responsibility for 1915 and find it natural to deny any accountability. Given that 1915 had victims and those victims’ pain and anger is still live in the words of people like you who take time and effort to contribute on these pages, the least I can do is read a few books.

  40. Random, I wouldn’t worry too much about the nationalists or what you will see in the papers over the next few days. Local press is already pointing out that only 10pct of the French parliamentarians bothered to turn up and out of those only 38 of them bothered to vote for the bill. We ll probably get a storm in a tea cup and relations will be lukewarm till Sarkozy falls at the next elections(or AKP) but business will go on, people will travel, young people will get married. Those who had no intention to co-exist need no coaxing or goading on such matters, ultra-nationalists are morons whatever their nationality. I particularly find it entertaining when they engage in patriotic displays and burn items that they already paid for just to show their displeasure with the offending country. The fact is you can not legislate against stupidity but may be trying to legislate in support of a “truth” is not always the smart thing do. Telling a group of people who are day by day approaching and processing the darkest episodes of their history and learning to live with those truths that their journey is void and the facts have already been decided for them is arguably not the best way to approach the matter. I ll go and read the sources suggested by the other contributers, what I might find there worries me more than what the french did tdy.

  41. avatar Yeretsgin Marie Boghossian [Worcester Mass.] // December 22, 2011 at 11:55 pm // Reply

    Merci aux Deputes francais et a Madame Valerie Boyer pour avoir vote cette Loi.

  42. I suppose this will bring an end to the endless (and somewhat justified) criticism of the article 301 of the Turkish penal code.  Even that does not specifically outlaw a particular idea or point of view as the French have done here.  Facts remain. I have to say the spectacle is rather enjoyable.

  43. All you concerned, please connect with LE MONDE in Paris and express yourselves at :
    Le Figaro a mis en ligne sur son site internet un sondage demandant aux internautes: ” Faut-il pénaliser la négation du génocide arménien?”
     
    VOUS AUSSI, VOTEZ OUI en cliquant sur ce lien!
     
    http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2011/12/21/01016-20111221QCMWWW00320-faut-il-penaliser-la-negation-du-genocide-armenien.php
     
     
     
    Le Monde a mis en ligne un sondage similaire: “Vous-même, êtes-vous favorable ou pas favorable à l’adoption par le Parlement d’une loi condamnant la négation du génocide arménien ?”
     
    VOUS AUSSI, VOTEZ FAVORABLEen cliquant sur ce lien!
     
    http://www.lemonde.fr/a-la-une/sondage/2011/12/20/vous-meme-etes-vous-favorable-ou-pas-favorable-a-l-adoption-par-le-parlement-d-une-loi-condamnant-la-negation-du-genocide-armenien_1620917_3208.html
     
     

     

  44. avatar papken hartunian // December 23, 2011 at 2:54 am // Reply

    Dave, I am so glad that you hove pointed out about the French’s fraud against Armenian nation. I am working on this issue for sometime now. I cannot find a copy of “French Armenian Agreement 1916.” Can anyone assist me to find this document? 

  45. To those who suggest that passing of this resolution will restrict people, including the historians from freely discussing the Armenian genocide in France, please allow me to remind them that Turkey has a similar law on their books where the historians cannot freely conclude that there was an Armenian Genocide.
    With the current laws in Turkey, discussing the Armenian Genocide there will result in the same conclusion as in Iran several years ago when Mahmoud Ahmadijinad organized a symposium discussing the Jewish Holocaust. If you recall the “expert” historians in Iran concluded that the Jewish holocaust did not happen. But of course we know better.

  46. This vote was the result of Turkey “jerking around” the Europeans and Americans with the delay in signing the Protocols. The West had a lot of domestic vested interest in getting the Protools signed. The Turks will now pay a heavy price and all of you will who were badmouthing the Armenian government and hanging the Presidents effigy will now understand that the RA played the Protocol issue perfectly. Checkmate!

  47. avatar john the turk // December 23, 2011 at 5:36 am // Reply

    Adali

    These people are trouble makers. Give me your email address I will give you may books which you can read. Taner akcam and Dadrian are Armenian paid so called scholars 

  48. 45 French members of parliament out of 570? And you armenians call this a victory.!! Pathetic. The French think armenians are causing a lot of headache for France. Go read the polls.

  49. I think it is a shame for French politicians to use such historical case for their benefits and it is also a shame for the Armenians who consider this bill as a victory. First of all, the number of participiants in voting process shows the credibility of that bill. Even if it reflects what the majority of politicians thinks, then this French goverment is making a historical mistake just to increase their number of seats in the parliament. 
    Another remark is that “being used” by politicians do not make the Armenians’ hands stronger but mak them funny. The Armenian authority in Turkey is aware of these facts and that’s why they expressed their doubts about the case.
    We all should be realistic and as always said, let the history to historians. It is important to see the water in a glass half fulled rather than half empty. The unity between Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Turks should be raised rather than the war period. What happened happened and hundreds of thousand of people died from both sides. If Armenian community in the US wants the Armenian citizens not to go over economical crisis and starve, then they should quit their unreasonable efforts to fight with Turkey over 50 years.
     

  50. John, thank you for the offer but I think I ll go ahead and determine my own reading list. I have no interest in Mr Akcam’s payroll details but look forward to understanding why he has such high credibility with his audience on these pages. I have enough self confidence in the history and achievements of our nation and the future of our country without worrying about which authors I should read.If I become convinced that any of the contributors are trouble makers than I ll stop valuing their views and suggest you ignore them too.There are already a couple whose posts show symptoms of other common afflictions rather than the scars of 1915 but on the whole I see that most are mature and sincere in their stance.It is good to talk with mutual respect.Then again, I am greatly amused by all the fuss made over the French vote and the amount of energy being spent debating it. Surely what matters is what the Turks and Armenians feel and think not what the French vote on. I also know that at home in Turkey, Armenian citizens work and thrive in industry as well as arts and they share our joy on holidays as well as being weighed down by all the prejudices that inflicted and still inflict each and every one of us as citizens of the Republic, regardless of ethnicity or political convictions. Yet, given that 1915 still defines the relationship between our peoples and the lack of closure haunts so many good souls, we the Republican generation could not have been very succesful in our approach to the Armenians. I suspect the truth for 1915 is somewhere in the middle of the trenches dug by the two sides. I am not worried about looking there.

  51. John the Turk, I don’t think anybody is interested in your book. Many have seen simmilar ininformed  writers’ books. Most likely your research was done using Turkish published books.
    Thank you for the offer.

  52. ‘The Armenian authority in Turkey is aware of these facts and that’s why they expressed their doubts about the case.’, writes Ugur.

    There is no ‘Armenian authority’ in Turkey. Those Armenians who were forced to speak or write publicly against the Bill are  hostages. We consider everything  they say or write against the French Bill done under duress. Zero effect.

    The rest of the post is typical incoherent rant of overused and discredited phrases from the Turkish Ministry of Disinformation and Propaganda, e.g. ‘hundreds of thousand of people died from both sides’.  We have seen it all.


    And yeah, Armenians are starving. Sure they are. We will worry about our own. If you have time on your hands, do something about your  people who are still living in tents in freezing temperature in Van. A child froze to death 2-3 weeks ago in the tent. Two children burnt to death when their tent caught fire. A family of 7 was left homeless in freezing temperature when their tent caught fire. Thousand are still living in tents, with snow piling up outside. Go and take care of them, Ugur.

     

  53. Avery,

    I think you misunderstood my example for the people living in Armenia, I didn’t say it to humiliate them, I was around there last year and I was shocked when I learned that the number of people living under starvation limit. Even the most sad part is that the Armenian diaspora is stuck with a case and don’t look back to see them. 
    What happened in Van was a natural disaster and most of the people around the world has felt sorry for them and sent their help except the ones thinking tthe same way as you do.
       

  54. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 23, 2011 at 11:58 am // Reply

    To ARto,
    Yes,I agree with you. A kin  of mine insisted  that  pres.Sarkissian was acting (in the true meaning  of  the word,like a good actor) performing  a good act…
    Firstl showing to the Three power Rep.s at Zurich ,Clinton,Lavrov and Solana that ¨we Ar minians  COMPLY  with  your  requests  of ¨peace  in the region.dialogue eetc.,¨getting brin ing the ¨
    Cabeza de Turco¨spanish  .In spain when Colonel Tejero invaded the Spnaishj Cortes(parliaments) decade or so ago.Next  day the newspapsers  had   his photo with red FEZ on  and below  that phrase,which means  hard headed.
    You see this is diplomatic trick  he pulled(serj  that  is) now the goal  is in their goal.
    However, I do not agree  that  we accept the harmful  points  clauses  in protocols.
    Hopefully  NOW, at least   now  the Armenian side will pull back the signatures… 

  55. ’45 French members of parliament out of 570? And you armenians call this a victory.!! Pathetic. ‘

    if it is ‘Pathetic’  Ahmet, why is Official Turkey having a catatonic seizure ?TodaysZaman and Hurriyet  are saturated with news and commentary about the French Bill past couple of weeks. After the Bill passed, there is a new batch of hysteria. 
    Judging by the hysterical Turkish overreaction to something that is not even Law yet, I’d say the adjective describes the delusional AG Denialists more aptly.
     

  56. This german film, produced by NDR (German public television), is the best documentary on the Armenian Genoside i’ve ever seen.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WtGCbAoMow
    With english subtitles.
     

  57. One would have to be seriously addicted to fairy tales and the shabbiest of science fiction thrillers to think that an urgent concern for free speech is at the heart of the hue and cry that has gone up about the French vote from certain quarters, notably on the part of such actors as the Los Angeles Times and some of the well known columnists of the Turkish press (who then quote the LAT line, as if thereby giving support to their ideas). I can’t give all the references, but they are there. None of them shows the least understanding of or concern with the special circumstances and history of the French law, but instead put forward as their model the irrelevant pablum of the supposed American version of free speech. France is France. If we are not willing to appreciate the complexity of that fact and do it justice, we shouldn’t write stupid columns about it, especially when our motive in doing so is not to defend the truth but to obscure it. This is a noble moment for France as well as for the French Armenian community which has struggled to hold itself intact against unspeakable odds since the Genocide.
     
     

  58. I understood your example well enough, Ugur.  
    The sentence is quite clear: If Armenian community in the US wants the Armenian citizens not to go over economical crisis and starve’.
    I also understand the meaning of this: I was shocked when I learned that the number of people living under starvation limit’.

    Really. ‘under starvation limit’ ? Do you even know what the word starvation means ?
    You were there last year and saw all that ? How long were you there ? How many cities, towns, villages did you visit ? Which cities did you visit ?
    Where exactly did you see ‘people living under starvation limit’

    And read what I actually said regarding Van: Turks boast about their Economic miracle, their prowess in everything, while looking down on RoA.
    Turkey was not responsible for the  earthquake. Turkey is responsible for talking big and yet letting thousands of families still live in tents in freezing snow weeks after the earthquake. Is that what your “17th largest economy”  is all about ?
    And you may recall your Government refused all outside help, including from RoA, initially: your interior minister stated publicly that he refused outside help so he can test the ability of his emergency services. So again, you worry about your own country, Ugur. We Armenians will worry about ours. We don’t need your “help”.
    Turks have “helped” us enough.

  59. I don’t know what Turkey is so upset. Who cares what France has to say any more? Their days of being a great nation are long over. Now, now they are a train speeding down a cliff. They will go down with Euro. Turkey is ascendent, France is a declining country with some good perfume and arrogant attitude … and yes, some French fries… but wait, they did invent them.

  60. A.G. very good video. I for one share Miss Dink’s optimism as well as sadness in the tragic loss of her father. The two peoples should commemorate 2015 hand in hand and honour the memory of all those who perished as a result of Talat and Enver’s murderous ambitions and find the courage to celebrate the bravery and genius of all those who survived and built new lives. As modern Turks we may not have been in those desert roads and amongts the kurds and chetes who attacked the innocents but we will be complicit if we do not damn the CUP and damn all who took part even if a hundred years on. It is true that the CUP were a junta and bore no resemblance to an elected party with any level of popular support, it will also be argued by some that the majority of Turks even then objected to their actions and some may indeed have been victims themselves, not just of CUP but also of brutality of war in general in the hands of Russians and Armenians. To the average Turk 1915 is all too distant both in terms of time and geography and the accusations are too vile too horrible to accept for any decent man or woman convinced of their innocence. Our reflex reaction is to say it could not have happened. Question is what would the modern Turkish society have made of Talat and his co-conspirators if they came to be tried tdy. I am confident that they would find no refuge anywhere. So why should it be any different for Talat 1915?

  61. Adali, you are showing yourself to be more open-minded and fair than most.  Still you should know that Talaat and Enver were tried by Turkey after 1915.  The events that led to them being rehabilitated in Turkish society to hero status and worthy of streets, schools  and public places being named for them will make for quite an eye-opening education for you.

  62. Boyajian, I am aware of those trials but those were a century ago. It is a shared trait of all of us in Middle East that we sometimes talk of historical events and the peoples as if they were yesterday and we were all still present and still responsible. The Greeks hark back to the Republic, the Jews boast about the Covenant and the Arabs give accounts of medieval battles with the same conviction, vigour and realism as if it were a football match they just watched Yesterday. The truth is modern societies, especially the advanced ones find a way to deal with their errors and re-invent their position for the future. A lot has happened since 1915, all societies went through changes and on the whole as a species we moved in the right direction. Germany survived Nazism, Russia survived communism and America became a better place with the success of the Civil Rights Movement. The point I was trying to make was this: In the light of all evidence and with intent as well as execution so well documented, if Talat was brought to court in Istanbul today would today’s Turkish society accept him whatever the excuses and justifications. Knowing what I know of my people today I am confident to say that he would have no support at all. So why should we treat the memory of him any different? As Turks we too suffered in WW1 and when you talk to many of us you will have stories from grandparents telling us of lands and gardens left behind and horrors inflicted on them by various armies hell bent on revenge. With the new Republic they had a home and with new energy they built a new country and although they still had tearful stories of their old villages, they were at home under their own flag and not a diaspora. You too are far away from your lands and gardens but I fear you never had an appropiate acknowledgement of your tragedy. Those of us who are still living at the crossrads find a way to understand each other and live well together. I am sure many a quiet and personal apologies have already been shared over the years and friendships are still intact and strong in Istanbul, LA and Marseilles. Those apologies are more likely to be heard everywhere if people stop shouting. I really appreciate the welcome you showed me over the 24 hours and I will continue watching and reading the pages with sincere enthusiasm in the future. I desperately hope that those of you who seem to think that a nation, Turks, can be inherently and uniformly evil come to see that view too leads to racism.

  63. If Turkey stands for possibility of alternative interpretations of history, why doesn’t it tolerate the “alternative interpretation” of France about 1915 events in Turkey? Turkey is threatening France to stop all bilateral cooperation in order to impose its interpretation. Isn’t it the mentality of the Middle Ages? (by the way, during the Middle Ages Europe had similar mentality to that of Turkey at the end of 19th century with many issues of human rights violation and violence not only to Armenians but also to Greeks, Bulgarians, Kurds etc.)   Why does Davutoglu treat the position of France parliament about 1915 events as dishonor of their current country (current government) and today’s population of Turkey?

  64. May be Turkey is so ascendant because it manufactures products (perfume, clothes, appliances etc) which are created (invented) by France and other G7 countries “diclining countries” ?????????? What did Turkey invent???????????

  65. David you say: “May be Turkey is so ascendant because it manufactures products (perfume, clothes, appliances etc) which are created (invented) by France and other G7 countries “diclining countries” ?????????? What did Turkey invent???????????”

    David, did France invent perfumes? I don’t think so.  And dont’ rush to belittle Turkey. What did they invent? How about having one of the longest lasting (if not the longest) empires in History? But in any event, why does it matter who invented what. The fact is Turkey is ascendent, and Armenia is declining, along with its perfume-sniffing French amigos. The future belongs to Turkey, not France.

  66. Thank you France you are on track again as great nation who defends and stands by those have been subjected to injustice

  67. Adali, I did understand your point.  And I’m glad you are aware of the earlier trials.  What I am saying is that I am not as optimistic about your populace as you are.  I hope I am wrong, but if trials that took place immediately following the events failed to bring justice, even though the victims and the evidence were known in every village east of Istanbul, what makes you think that 100 years later, Turks would be moved to un-deify their heroes?

    Read Kerim’s comment above.  Do you hear the idealization of the Ottoman Empire and the dream for the return of imperial glory?  Do you think Kerim and his friends are ready to admit past mistakes and to treat non-Turks as equals? 

  68. Shouldn’t France face her own colonialistic, violent history (see Algerian Genocide) before deciding others’ ?

  69. SylvaMD this is for you:
    http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=477320&version=1&template_id=36&parent_id=16

    Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi yesterday rejected the French parliament’s call for Turkey to admit that Ottoman Turks had committed genocide against Armenians in the early 20th century.“We support the stand of Turkey,” he said in his Friday sermon at Imam Mohamed Ibn Abdul Wahab Mosque while adding that Islam does not allow the extermination of people. 

  70. Avery and the other excited and biased commentors:

    Don’t be offended but what I conclude is that your type of thinking shows that you are obsessive about Turkey in many cases. First of all, using Van example was irrelevant. It was a natural disaster and of course it is going to cause some trouble in the middle of winter and in the city experiencing -25 C in winter! Of course, people will die in unwanted circumstances. What does it have to do with the French parliment passing a bill on “genocide”?
    Be realistic and appreciate Turkey’s economic growth and do care about the people living in Armenia! Stop your ridicilous efforts to fight with Turkey, rather you establish peace and make the border open. We, the Turks are ready for it, we care about the Armenians living in Armenia, as well as the ones living in İstanbul. Last night, I watched a Turkish program and two of the participiants were Turkish Armenians and they are so open minded, just take them as a model. You will see then, things are going to be better. 

  71. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // December 24, 2011 at 7:47 am // Reply

    Garo…Qaradawi is Qaradawi 
    is not shaikh al-Azhar…He lives in Qatar…
    Every Arab knows who is he…
    Egyptian lady, a daughter of Shaikh …
    She gave so much information about Ottomans’ occupation
    which is not written in books…I published AW

    i liked one word Qardawi said…That
    Islam doesn’t allow Extermination … 
    Which means a lot…to say people who did it are not Muslims 
    Because Muslims doesn’t allow rape and kill the children…
    If they do they will be hanged in Saudi Arabia…

    So alBasher of Sudan also not a Muslim he committed Genocide against Muslim people…
    And Pakistanis are not Muslims, they committed genocide against Bengalis…
    who are Muslims as well
    Who came after Prophet Muhammad did not kill the Christian…
    They asked them to pay taxes if they don’t they converted them to Islam…

    Killing a gene is another question…

    We paid not only heavy taxes to Ottomans
    but our homes
    our bank accounts,
    our Altars
    Our children who are all turkified
    Our beautuful honest girls 

    They smashed our artful genes 
    which no longer any one can find…
    Ottomans not only cut our hands
    Like the Mughal emperor Shah Jahan who did for 20,000 builders of Taj-Mahal
    So they are unable to build another Mahal: Palace

    I wish they did like Shah Jahan cutting Armenian hands…
    If they did we would been able to carve rocks with our feet…
    What they did No race has done before …

    Thus they are not Muslims according to Qaradawi and others …
    Qardawi knows very well who are the Ottomans …

    Sylva

     

  72. Go read your first post again, Ugur.
    This is what you wrote in your first post:  If Armenian community in the US wants the Armenian citizens not to go over economical crisis and starve,’.
    You Turks initiate use of that sort of language regarding RoA or Armenians, we are off to the races.
    Turkey has a lot of dirt: I know all about it.  Remember that next time you Turks decide to ridicule or look down on RoA and Armenians.
     
    ‘What does it have to do with the French parliment passing a bill on “genocide”?’
    What does this sentence in your first post  If Armenian community…economical crisis and starve,’  have to do with the French Bill ?
     
    ‘Stop your ridicilous efforts to fight with Turkey,’
    It will stop when Turkey Recognizes (again), pays Reparations, and Returns our lands.
    Otherwise it will go on, and on, and on: step by step we will turn rest of Europe, rest of the West, Latin America, and so on against you. 
    We will get justice for the 2 million of our ancestors that your ancestors murdered: we will never stop, and will never give up.
    Tell your friends.
     
    ‘rather you establish peace and make the border open’
    Go tell it to your Turkish Government: they are the ones who do not want it opened.
    RoA is ready to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey with no preconditions.
    Since Day 1.
     
    .’We, the Turks….we care about the Armenians living in Armenia,’
    Sure you do: you care so much that your government massively supported AzeriTurks in their failed attempt to exterminate Artsakh’s Armenians. You care so much that your government is doing everything in concert with Azerbaijan to damage and extinguish Armenia. Azeris are massively re-arming and preparing for war. Go read about the military equipment Turkey is selling to Azerbaijan. What do you think it is for ?
     
    ‘two of the participiants were Turkish Armenians’
    Turkahyes are hostages. Everything they say or write is done under duress.
    We understand, and don’t hold it against them. 
    They know what happened to Hrant Dink. They know that Turkish Police congratulated the murderer Ogün Samast. Proudly took pictures withe him: you remember that, don’t you ? They know the real organizers were never investigated or caught.
    They also know about  Sevak Sahin Balrkci, an Armenian soldiers in the TSK who was murdered by racist Turks soldiers on April 24 (!).

     
    And one last thing about ‘excited and biased commentors’  @AW: take a few hours and read what your Turk buddies post @TodaysZaman and @Hurriyet under Armenian related articles. You will see real excitement and bias right in your back yard.

  73.  
     Last night, I watched a Turkish program and two of the participiants were Turkish Armenians and they are so open minded, just take them as a model. You will see then, things are going to be better. 

    @Ugur

    Fact Check: It is Turkey that keeps the border shut, not Armenia. Armenia has stated hundreds of times that it is ready for an open border and ready to exchange diplomats. It is Turkey which refused to not only ratify protocols in parliament but also wanted to add new provisions after the protocols were signed. This is nothing new as Turkey has always violated its treaties.

    Avery was referring to the fact that while you decry the situation of Armenians, your own Turks, especially those in the east, have it worse. Your “caring and worries” about Armenia are nothing more than crocodile tears and blatantly dishonest. Furthermore, for all your rancor about the state of Armenia, it is was at its worst in 1993. I have been to Armenia several times since then, do business there and though problems still exist, it is markedly different now. I have also been to Turkey on 3 occasions, as my wife is an Istanbul Armenian and still has relatives there (I could get into how they have to conduct their daily lives but that would warrant several pages) and have traveled to areas outside of the city and Turkey is no different than many third world nations.

    And regarding economic growth, it is a double-edged sword; financial markets and trade between nations are interdependent so if your neighbors and by extent your trades partners suffer, it will spread and eventually hit you. The world-wide recession is indeed growing.

    And about those Armenians you refer to on TV- let’s face it, anytime something profound occurs, and Armenian in Istanbul can always be shall we say “encouraged” to toe the official Turkish line. As my wife says, they are canaries in a cage nestled in the mouth of a lion, have they any choice?
     

  74. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 24, 2011 at 11:16 am // Reply

    To Garo?(your post reads more  like a toikish one)….  please  tell Yusu whatever  long  name  that  to his chagrin the president  of the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC  OF IRAN IS A ON STATE VISIT TO ARMENIA , in order to  FOSTER   MORE   COMMERCIAL  AND ABOVE ALL  REFINARY  BLDG. & YET   DELIVERY  OF MORE  OIL… 
    i ASK  YOU HOW  COME????  HE DOES  NOT SIDE  WITH GREAT TURKEY propaganada?
    to :-
    UGUR,  now…of course  you are RIGHT, WE SHOULD BE  LIKE BROTHERS AND SISTERS..FRIENDLY AND NEIGHBOURLY…..      B     U      T   ….
    FIRST  LET  US FACE WHAT  TRANSPIRED  ON OTTOMAN TURKEY AND YOUNG TURKS  TURKEY  AS WELL   AS   YOUR   SO MUCH    IMPORTANT  FOR  YOU ATATURK TURKEY.FIRST  LET´S SESTTLE THOSE  HORRENDOUS  CRIMES  THEY INFLICGTED ON US.MY TWO GRANDFATHERS  ,ONE  GRANDMOTHER  DIED  THANKS  TO YOUR  PEOPLE´S  CRUELTIES  AND MILLION  AND A  HALF MORE…
    OUR ANCESTRAL  HABITAT  WAS SNATCHED AWAY ,CONFISCATED  , MY GRANFATHERS  RICHEDS  TAKEN OVER  AFTER EVICTING  THEM  ….
    HOW  NICE  OF  YOJU COME AND SERMONIZE  US   FOR FRIENDSHIP…WITHOUT
    UNDERTAKING   TO COMPENSATE!!!!!!!! 
     

  75. Sylva,
                  I have to agree with Garo, that Islamic countries are built in violence and killings, there are verses in Kuran, indicate mankind should submit to new Allah’s book and his messenger, Muhammad,  that is quite racist act … Islam means “submit” or else!!there are verses in Islam, where disrespect Judio-Christian religion and mentality…I wonder if a Muslim person convert to Christianity, what will happen to his/her faith!!If you see “kind Arabs” acting like humans,  that has nothing to do with Koran and Muslim faith!!When I read the fall of Persian Empire, you will find out how Arabs slaughter burned old Persian literature, books and even language, the Arab invaders islamized entire Zoroastrian Persia!! Jihadism indicated in Koran, “politically” and Armenian genocide fall into combined Turkish Islam o Fascism category. Turks entirely are Islamized nation, where their origins are Christian subjects such as Byzantine Slavs, Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks and other Christians , where they were part of Eastern Roman Empire!!   

  76. Few of the articles in the western media mention that many people have been convicted of Holocaust denial in Europe.

    In other words, the media are not putting the French bill in context.

    Another interesting thing is that Turkey is so utterly crude and clueless that it thinks criticizing France over Algeria somehow absolves Turkey of its own crimes.  Only a clueless nation would make such an assertion.  It is one thing to be stupid.  It is an entirely different thing to not realize it.

    By the way, I have never heard the Turks give an excuse as to why they committed genocide against Assyrians.

    Also, the Turks have committed many, many genocides and massacres.  I am wondering why we Armenians do not talk about this more often.  In other words, expose the entire bloody history of the Turks.  Let us not stick to the 1915 period.  Lots of peoples were masscred over the years by Turks.  Remember the Bulgarian massacres.

  77. avatar Queen Haykanoush // December 24, 2011 at 10:58 pm // Reply

    Adali, your sincere enquiry made me also write a reply.. I am a granddaughter of Armenian Genocide survivors. My family story is one of the stories which happened to all Armenians in 1915 who lived in their Millenial Homeland- Western Armenia- or Anatolia, as usually called. From a large and very influential family who gave scolars, doctors, craftsmen, devoted citizen- with 58 people- only 3 suvived, my grandpa, his sister and their mom… all of the rest had been murdered cruely, young man had been arrested as if to serve in the “Turkish Army”- but were then murdered during slavery work on Eastrern Railorads. My grandpa, aged 9 and the survisvd 2 other family members had been sentenced to death marches in teh desserts of Deir-Es-Zawr /as we call it- Ter-Zor/ and miraculously escaped death my hiding, pretending dead, eating whatever they coudl find at nights… THIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGESTE CRIMES The humanity committed , EVER- and those were your Ancestors- if you share a Turksih genotype. Sorry- THIS IS THE TRUTH… Now, landed in my homeland- Armenian Republic, being a much respected physician in my county and saving lives of people- I frequently remeber the bitter stories of my grandpa, and cry over and over again suffering from what he suffered- and asking over and over again- WHY, WHY – WHO GAVE THE RIGHT TO TURKS ANNIHILATING US FROM OUR MILLENIAL HOMELAND… ???? I have many other storeis, but, for the time being, please, visit Armenain Genocide Museum- Instiutute’s/Yerevan located/ Webiste.

  78. avatar john the turk // December 25, 2011 at 3:28 pm // Reply

    Queen Haykanoush
    If your people hadn’t revolt and collaborated with an invading army, Were they going to stay where they lived for millenia? The answer yes is indisputable so the responsibility bears on your shoulder. You Armenians talk about ongoing agony and pain lasted a century. This isn’t true. If someone had killed my grand parents I wouldn’t give a flying shit a century later. Something must be wrong with you guys

    • Progeny of nomadic barbaric uncultured tribes who dwelt in tents and who identify with a pack of wolves cannot possibly comprehend the higher concepts of nationhood, civilization and concern for one’s exterminated ancestors, that is concomitant with a more advanced rung on the evolutionary ladder.

      When a lion pride kills a wildebeest, the rest of herd quickly goes back to munching their grass, as if nothing has happened. The ruminants have no concept of being part of the whole. They do not care that one of their own has just been killed. Lions, who are clearly more intelligent than ruminants, will kill Hyenas in revenge (i.e. not for food).

      What you are describing about your lack of concern for your ancestors is very revealing: it validates what we have suspected for a long time.

  79. I wouldn’t be overexcited about this as most of the posters here are, because the bill may force Turkey to ratify the ill-fated protocols in order to avoid passing the bill in the French Senate and its enacting into law in France.

  80. avatar john the turk // December 27, 2011 at 5:28 am // Reply

    Avery

    “””Progeny of nomadic barbaric uncultured tribes who dwelt in tents and who identify with a pack of wolves cannot possibly comprehend the higher concepts of nationhood, civilization””

    You have had a lower level of culture and civilisation than other people who made Turkey home including Turks. Your ancestors were still living with their animals in the same house in the eve of WW1.Is this how civilised you are? You are most probably living in the same mentality in Armenia.

    “”it validates what we have suspected for a long time”””

    Why do you suspect for something that you have witnessed for almost a thousand of years? When we loose somebody we do not carry on our dinner like ruminants but we go to bed in order to replace the lost one.That’s how we have survived the long and relentless battles

    • John the Turk:

      When your ancestors were living in Yurts,sleeping with their animals to keep warm, Armenians were building magnificent cities like the majestic Ani, which your barbarian ancestors destroyed: anything that did not resemble a Yurt, had no value to your nomadic barbarian ancestors.

      Most everything you Turks call Turkish culture today is either Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, or Kurdish. Examples: one of your Turkish soccer teams recently stole the music of “Zartnir Lao”, and Armenian patriotic song. One of your floozies recently stole the music of Armenian mourning song “Adana” – and blasphemously changed the lyrics to a slutty pop song. The list is endless.

      Admit it: we Armenians have a 5,000 year old civilization, you Turks don’t.

    • Avery:

      Admit it: we Armenians have a 5,000 year old civilization, you Turks don’t.

      Okay. Armenian civilization far out-dates Turkish civilization- true. Soo… that makes Armenians better than Turks..?

      John:

      Turks controlled modern Turkey and the Armenian homeland for centuries because as a civilization, Turks were more powerful and at times more ruthless, not because we were “worthier” or “better” people. Armenians historically had very impressive kingdoms and empires.You can’t deny that. Yiğidi öldür hakkını yeme.

    • ‘Soo… that makes Armenians better than Turks..?’

      Nope: show me a post where I have said Armenians are better than (modern) Turks RVDV.

    • Avery:

      Well you and John the Turk were in a heated debate about who was more civlized. I know you did not start it- but…. “Progeny of nomadic barbaric uncultured tribes who dwelt in tents and who identify with a pack of wolves cannot possibly comprehend the higher concepts of nationhood, civilization and concern for one’s exterminated ancestors, that is concomitant with a more advanced rung on the evolutionary ladder.”

      If youre taking a shot at Turkish civilization- which is fine you can think and say whatever you want- I thought there was an implied “what do you savages know about our far superior civilization.” If there wasnt Im sorry I wrongly accused you.

  81. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 27, 2011 at 9:18 pm // Reply

    Dea,fromr Avery,
    Read the post above your last,from John(John the turk?)…it is of the utmost importance. I have many a times written on this and other sites that NOW is the time to withdraw the Armenian signatures from those infamous protocols…
    Looks like our part is still playing with fire to bring them more to accept reality.
    This is a very dangerous game that serj and co.are playing!!!
    I hope and trust they pull back ASAP. Fact of the matter is not only the Bill in the French Senate to be ratified…also the execution of the U.s. Congress one re Churches ,monasteries etc., is also intended to put pressure on great Turkey to ratify the protocols and open border etc.,
    This is really worrisome…..at least to those who know how and when the cunning ottoman turklish mindset functions…more wheeling and dealing than their ¨allies¨…
    rgds

    • You are right Mr. Palandjian: RoA must withdraw her signature from the infamous Protocols: there is no benefit to Armenia, and a lots of hidden dangers.
      I am surprised Turks do not ratify it, because it has huge benefits for Turkey.

  82. avatar Queen Haykanoush // December 28, 2011 at 4:35 am // Reply

    john the turk- I am sure you do not need to any further circulate your nomadic viewpoints in Armenian webpages with your obvious dsrespect towards our national pain, offense of the sacred feelings of millions of Armenians and with your negligence of such high human values as dignity, pide and genetic memory are. If you would not care what would of happened to your grand parents/ irrespective of when/ I am hesitant to define you as a healthy element of human socium.
    However, a last point for you is: the time for the Worldwide RECOGNITION of the 1915 Armenian Genocide is not beyond mountains, and, as our President said; “the time will come and the new Turkey’s president will visit Tsitsernakaberd Memorial Complex in Yerevan devoted to the 1915 Armenian Genocode victims and will pay the tribute”.

  83. Queen Haykanoush

    You, as the members of diaspora ( I’m not talking about the peaceful Armenians living in Armenia, Georgia and Turkey), you will apologise Turkey for you slanders one day, and apologise the Armenian citizens for putting them in an economical crisis by destroying their economical and cultural relationships with Turkey. Sooner or later, you will fall into emptiness as your diaspora will prove futile.

    • avatar Random Armenian // December 28, 2011 at 1:29 pm //

      Ugur,

      Very disingenuous comments. The largest and the holiest Armenian genocide memorial is in Armenia itself. It was created after 100s of thousands of Armenians marched in Soviet Armenia. Thousands of Armenians march and lay flowers every April 24. Do you not know this?

      Not only are you insulting us but displaying your utter ignorance.

      Do you live in the US? Have you talked with any Armenians (politely)? If you ever do, ask them where their families originated and what their story is.

      For a group of people who pride on being conquerors and warriors, you guys are pretty overly sensitive and childish. All this stuff about being insulted and hurt of pride is a defense mechanism.

  84. Ugur, speaking the truth is not slander. It is Turks who are beginning to apologize today and it is only a matter of time before the government of Turkey will issue an official apology on behalf of the nation.

    All ‘Armenia’ ( in the diaspora, Armenia, Artsakh, Georgia, and Russia) suffers the ramifications of the genocide and all ‘Armenia’ will benefit when the truth is acknowledged.

  85. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 30, 2011 at 3:18 pm // Reply

    Dear Avery,
    Please excuse my bad typing above,especially when addressing you.I don´t know how it got entangled with other letters there.
    I would like you to now and then contact me (privately,if you so wish) for there are issues ,other than the above perennial arguments with counterparts(Turks?)that also need exchange of viewpoints/opinions,without doubt and redress.Rather, suggestions to redress these.I have lately been busy preparing yet another of my ¨papers¨.But Holidays ahead ,shall leave it for later.
    Meanwhile I do extend my best wishes to you and all online everyone , from Sylva to Boyajian to all…
    best,
    G.P.
    As to definite or near exact definittion of Armenian Genocide Recognition and restituions,this very largely depends on trends and /or that are to be ¨adjusted¨ so to say by

  86. avatar gaytzag palandjian // December 30, 2011 at 5:20 pm // Reply

    ADDENDUM,
    Sorry I could not end above post ´s P.S.
    I was about to point out that the intricacies around Armenian Cause/Case that enlap Recognition of the Genocide on us and Restitutions,are subject to world affairs.This is to say trends that are prevailing between some powers.Though cold war is over,not so the competitions to to say .also to be considered the prevalent issues deriving from same. Energy provision race above all that automatically includesrival ¨competotiors¨ whether Regional or even intercontinental. None the less it has been pending(the Armenian Question,i.e.)its final solution and settlement for very long.It is overdue .that is why we MUST DEFINITELY BEGION TO RE ORGANIZE our immense Diaspora(s) have Supreme Council( in five deptartments) and National Investment Trust Fiund to finance REPATRIATION .Latter to be organized from Diaspora(s).Homeland too busy with such important issues as Defense,etc.,

  87. I’ll wait till March 2012 then I’ll fully celebrate.

    Diran, I agree with your post above. France is France and this is a noble moment for France as well as for the Armenian French community who certainly struggled for this to happen. I would also like to mention Mr. Charles Aznavour who fought for this alongside the Armenian French community. A good job well done!

  88. I give a good deal of the credit for this to the Armenian community of France, to our beloved Mr. Charles Aznavour, to the late president Mr. Chirac as well as the wonderful people and the government of France. I salute to all of the said people and thank them for this.

  89. avatar gaytzag palandjian // January 2, 2012 at 1:31 pm // Reply

    Dear Seervart,
    You mean EX-pres.Chirac not Late…
    Anyhow.credit must also be given to all Armenian org.s in Frfance,especially the political parties ,and above all the Anciene combattent francais d´origine Armenien¨very much revered this latter in France,of whoch pres. is my dear friend. Mr. A.Bagdikian…

  90. Dear Gaytzag,
    You are right. I should have said the Ex-President Chirac, for he was a very good man and friend to the Armenians. As well as to all the Armenian organizations in France that you have thoughtfully mentioned it above, and to your good friend Mr. A. Bagdikian. The Armenian French people have always been very patriotic and very active Armenians. I remember that some of the young gents even went to Artsakh and joined in the Artsakhian liberation movement. Good people.

  91. I did it again… I spoke in the past tense. Mr. Chirac is still living and may he live a healthy and a productuve life for many many years to come. We love you Mr. Chirac.

  92. Compter les abus des droits humains, vous condamner l’Etat français, rien de tel que le génocide arménien

  93. ‘Soo… that makes Armenians better than Turks..?’

    No, RVDV, that doesn’t, but it does make the ancestors of Turks invaders, occupiers, and adopters of the area and much of the culture where sedentary peoples, such as Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, Syriacs, and Armenians, had lived and created.

  94. Viva la France Viva la Sarkozy

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