Turkey Moves to Deport Armenian Workers after French Vote
By Nanore Barsoumian // Posted on January 26, 2012 in News // 125 Comments // 
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ISTANBUL, Turkey (A.W.)—Turkey is set to amend a law next month that aims to rid the country of illegal workers. Many view this move as retaliation against Armenians in light of the new bill criminalizing Armenian Genocide denial in France.
Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan (Photo by Nanore Barsoumian)
Varying estimates in Turkey put the number of Armenian citizens in the country from 10,000 to 100,000. Many of them are women, and are employed in low-skill jobs.
“This country, which Mark Levene called ‘the genocide zone,’ throughout its history has made it a habit to deport, expel, and relocate innocent people as retaliation and punishment for things they did not do, or have no connection to at all,” Turkish human rights advocate Ayse Gunaysu told Armenian Weekly Editor Khatchig Mouradian.
The amendment to Law No. 5683 on Residence and Travel of Foreign Subjects will be ratified on Feb. 1. In the past, people from the region migrated to Turkey on tourist visas, finding employment and becoming illegal workers. After a few months, they would leave and reenter the country on a new tourist visa (a process called “visa runs”). The workers hailed mostly from countries such as Georgia, Azerbaijan, the Ukraine, Indonesia, and Armenia. The new system will force migrants to stay out of the country for 90 days between two entries. Authorities are set to strictly enforce the new law, penalizing visa overstays and runs.
However, the amendment allows for employers who wish to keep their workers to pay a salary of TL 1,330 ($744), and an insurance premium, reported Bianet.org. The minimum wage in Turkey is TL 701 ($392), and it is unlikely that an unskilled worker will make significantly more than that.
Back in March 2010, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan hinted at retaliation against Armenian migrant workers if genocide resolutions were passed in foreign parliaments. In a discussion on genocide resolutions in the U.S. and Sweden, he told the BBC’s Turkish Service that of the 170,000 Armenians living in Turkey, only 70,000 are Turkish citizens. “We are turning a blind eye to the remaining 100,000… Tomorrow, I may tell these 100,000 to go back to their country, if it becomes necessary.”
It appears the French bill was the last straw for Erdogan’s government. On Jan. 25, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told reporters that “Turkey’s response to the adoption of the bill had long been decided.”
The president of the Migrants’ Association for Social Cooperation and Culture, Sefika Gurbuz, called the law a “threat to Armenians,” reported Bianet.
Meanwhile, Gunaysu characterized Turkey’s response a “black comedy.”
“The ongoing blackmail and threats against France is itself proof of guilt as well as a manifestation of lack of dignity and self-respect, despite—of course—pathetic demonstrations of national pride,” said Gunaysu.
Gunaysu, who is a member of the Committee Against Racism and Discrimination of the Human Rights Association of Turkey, pointed out the country’s history of deporting innocents peoples. In 1915, the Young Turk regime began its systemic deportations of Armenians as a main tool to rid the eastern provinces of a native population. “They still tell lies that it was because of treacherous Armenians, whereas hundreds of thousands of Armenians were not engaged in any political activity whatsoever,” said Gunaysu.
Then it was the turn of Turkey’s Kurdish and Greek populations. “The republican period is full of Kurdish deportations, especially in 1938 during and after the Dersim Massacres,” she said. “In 1964, the Turkish government expelled 40,000 Anatolian Greeks, forbidding them to bring along any personal belongings over 20 kg. and $20, as a retaliation against Greece in connection with the Cyprus issue—a deportation that is still terribly painful in the memories of these people.”
Gunaysu added, “The mindset from which this policy of retaliation originates is racist, inhuman, and brutal. The rulers of Turkey have once more proven that [the government] still follows the same path as that of their predecessors back in 1915 and all along the history of the Republic.”
Necati
He has diplomatic immunity and he is misusing it.
And I am saying Turkey committed Genocide and I don’t give a damn shit to your article 301. Come and arrest me.
I have always found it very amusing when people in the same sentence manage to spew racist and bigoted commentarry while they also rail against racism and bigotry of others.
Arshag
Your Article 301 argument is fake. Either you know nothing about it or try to misguiding people. for your information, This law can no longer be used directly against people who support the Armenian genocide thesis as the special permission required from the ministry of Justice to prosecute these people which means effectively no one has been charged for a long time by using this penal code.You are right. dozens of writers and columnists would have been writing from jail which is not the case.
ARTICLE 301 from Turkish web side..
ARTICLE 301 – (1) Turkishness, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey denigrates person, shall be punished with imprisonment from six months to three years.
(2) the Government of the Republic of Turkey, the judicial organs of State, Public denigration of the military or security organizations, shall be punished with imprisonment from six months to two years.
(3) denigration of Turkishness is committed by a Turkish citizen in a foreign country, the penalty shall be increased by one third.
(4) Expressions of thought intended to criticize shall not constitute a crime.
{“Turkey should not, however, just single out the illegal Armenian workers as a backlash to the French- THAT would be a wrong and petty attempt to “get even” with France.”}
writes RVDV.
{Angered at the time by foreign parliaments passing motions related to the events of 1915, Erdoğan threatened in 2010 to retaliate by deporting up to “100,000” Armenian citizens living illegally in Turkey.}
writes Hurriyet Daily News (Jan 31, 2012)
Of course the law is retaliation. Of course it singles out Armenians. Turks will of course make a show of rounding up everyone; can’t make it too obvious. But we heard it from PM Erdogan himself: it is retaliation; it targets Armenians.
More proof to all Armenians of who and what we are dealing with.
More proof to those amongst us who are still sporting those designer rose-colored glasses that it is well past time for them to discard them once and for all.
Prepare yourselves.
Erdogan threatened to retaliate in 2010. It’s 2012 now, so any retaliation is not due to the French. Notice how Erdogan never backs up anything he says? Just the other day Turkish officials announced that there would NOT be sanctions against French companies in Turkey.
still finding excuses for Turks who you say hanged your Grandfather for helping Armenians, are you ? An Alevi Kurd ? Hard to believe, isn’t it.
Hagia Sophia is a museum, so it’s OK to have minarets (but no cross on top of the dome).
Erdogan spoke in 2010, but this is 2012, so it must be OK.
Erdogan never backs up anything he says, but has his entire Administration engaged in massive AG Denial campaign, threatening France, buying lobbyists in France to fight against the AG Bill – so that’s OK too.
still finding excuses for Turks who you say hanged your Grandfather for helping Armenians, are you ? An Alevi Kurd ? Hard to believe, isn’t it.
All I said was that Erdogan claimed retaliation 2 years before the French passed this bill so it was NOT is response to France. And I told you the truth about my family. My great-grandfather did an honorable thing, he died trying to protect innocent people, and he succeeded- that family survived- how dare you insinuate that I am lying about that. If you would open your eyes you could see that I am not the enemy, you would see that I am on your side more than I am on my own countries side. Yes, I am an Alevi Kurd and I am from a Sunni and Turkish dominated Turkey, and I’m damn proud of it. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else who still questions my motives and real identity.
Regarding the Hagia Sophia- I don’t make the rules, take up your issue with a Turkish government official.
i hope they single out only illegal Armenians..
Others , for example, georgians , are working perfect.. they have businesses growing very fast in Turkey.
I want others stay no matter legal or not..
[...] the world. The Jerusalem Post says the bill will become law in a week or so. The Armenian Weekly reports that Turkey is threatening to deport 100,000 Armenians that are illegally residing in Turkey. While [...]
Avery
Hagia Sofia is a great monument for all humanity not for only Christians. It has minarets but they were added 500 years ago. If one day you visit this monumental building, You will see far more sign of Christianity than the Muslim signs even though this cathedral was used as a mosque for 500 years.You will see pictures of saints and Jesus and her holy mother all over the places. Why weren’t these removed ? as it was converted to a mosque and they were forbidden by Muslim belief? Instead they were covered by plaster. Perhaps, Turks haven’t been savage people as you guys try to portray
so argument is pointless.
Yahya the turk –
If Christians invade and colonize the Mongolian steppes — the ancestral homeland of the Turks, convert a major mosque there to a church, and then declare that it is “a great monument for all humanity” not only for Muslim Turks, how would you feel?
Hagia Sofia is originally an Orthodox patriarchal basilica, serving as Greek patriarchal cathedral of Constantinople before the city was sacked by the nomadic Turkish warriors in 1453. You, Turks, have weird mentality: you come from steppes, you invade, you destroy, you colonize, you desecrate and ruin, you transform churches to mosques, and then you dare to declare that whatever is left as “museums” are not originally Christian monuments; they are “great monuments for all humanity”. If they are “great monuments for all humanity” why did you transform places of Christian worship into mosques and then into museums? After all, they could have stayed “great monuments for all humanity” in their original, Christian, status.
Are you paying attention to the gibberish you wrote? “This cathedral was used as a mosque for 500 years”. Why on earth would a Christian cathedral be used as a Muslim mosque? Not only is it blasphemous, but it points out to the fact that nomads and intruders have a savage mentality, because they generally don’t create but tend to destroy, adopt, or transform.
Why weren’t these [pictures of saints] removed, you ask. Well, the bells, altar, iconostasis, and sacrificial vessels were removed and many of the mosaics were plastered over. Islamic features, such as the mihrab, minbar, and four minarets, were added. If Turks physically could, they would have desecrated all the remaining frescos. Proof? Look what your “civilized” state did to the thousands of Armenian monasteries and churches in Western Armenia. Have you ever browsed the Internet for pictures? Educate yourself with the “high level” of Turkish “civilization” when you visit the websites depicting your general attitude to everything non-Turkish and non-Muslim.
Berch:
“Are you paying attention to the gibberish you wrote? “This cathedral was used as a mosque for 500 years”. Why on earth would a Christian cathedral be used as a Muslim mosque?”
Why on earth would a Christian cathedral be used as a Muslim mosque? Well since the Hagia Sophia was the Imperial Ottoman Mosque from 1453 till 1923- meaning the Sultan prayed there, and as a mosque in general until 1931- I’m sure there must have been a reason.
“Why weren’t these [pictures of saints] removed, you ask. Well, the bells, altar, iconostasis, and sacrificial vessels were removed and many of the mosaics were plastered over.”
Yes, true, except your plaster argument was used by John to show that the Ottomans did not want to destroy the mosaics, simply cover them up. You can interpret this plastering situation any way you want.
“Islamic features, such as the mihrab, minbar, and four minarets, were added.”
Again, it was a mosque for nearly 500 years, and mosques generally have those things, so what on earth are you trying to prove?
“If Turks physically could, they would have desecrated all the remaining frescos.”
The Turks could have demolished the Hagia Sophia itself if they really wanted to, let’s be serious.
“..you transform churches to mosques, and then you dare to declare that whatever is left as “museums” are not originally Christian monuments.”
What? John explicitly called it a church (cathedral was his word) and said there are more Christian elements than Islamic. I was in Turkey last month and visited the Hagia Sophia. There were at least as many Christian elements as there were Islamic. “Then you declare what is left as ‘museums’”…. For a 1500 year old structure, the Hagia Sophia is in remarkable condition (after extensive repairs in recent years).
From Wikipedia: For almost 500 years the principal mosque of Istanbul, Hagia Sophia served as a model for many other Ottoman mosques, such as the Sultan Ahmed Mosque (Blue Mosque of Istanbul), the Şehzade Mosque, the Süleymaniye Mosque, the Rüstem Pasha Mosque and the Kılıç Ali Paşa Mosque.
It is not an understatement to say that the Ottomans revered the Hagia Sophia. I agree the desecration of countless Armenian churches is despicable, but there is no “what is left of” the Hagia Sophia. Seriously, get over yourself.
Point is, don’t top hate with hate. This is an endless cycle. The Hagia Sophia is such an insignificant and irrelevant subject concerning the Armenian genocide it’s almost laughable that this is now an issue. And let’s stop with the “get educated” retort. I am guilty of this myself. Things like genocide are not up for debate and opinions yes, but whether the Ottomans desecrated or respected the Hagia Sophia is up for debate. come on now, the Ottomans did not destroy everything they got their hands on, be fair, try to be fair.
Have you been to Cordoba? Spanish have smashed the middle of the world probably largest mosque, a magnificient and beautiful structure where Muslims have prayed for centuries, and erected a cathedral in the center, removing about a hundred of its thousand columns. Why do this? How often you hear this brought up?
All through Balkans, Russia and Caucuses, Orthodoxy has destroyed many mosques and cultural heritage with vengence. How often you hear anything about this? With a straight face people talk about Mongolia, 1453, etc. why not Hodjaly? We were all around. I invite you all to this century.
Murat, yes Christians retaliated against their conquerors who desecrated their holy sites. Do two wrongs make a right? NO. But let’s at least get the sequence correct—-the Turks invaded, captured, usurped, converted and destroyed as they saw fit. Did they destroy everything? NO. But they did enough to motivate retaliations which came after this. I invite you to be honest about your history and stop the cycle of revenge.
{The site was originally a pagan temple, then a Visigothic Christian church, before the Umayyad Moors at first converted the building into a mosque and then built a new mosque on the site. After the Spanish Reconquista, it once again became a Roman Catholic church, with a plateresque cathedral later inserted into the centre of the large Moorish building. The Mezquita is regarded as the one of the most accomplished monuments of Islamic architecture.} (from Wiki)
Pay attention now: pagan temple first, then Christian church, before converting to a mosque, before reverting back to a church.
Typical of many Turks: apparently in their minds history always starts with the suffering of Turks: nothing happened before.
And when you bring up Hodjali, also make sure you list the following:
1988 Sumgait massacre of Armenians
1988 Kirovabad massacre of Armenians
1990 Baku massacre of Armenians
1991 “Operation Koltso” (combined Azeri OMON & Soviet operation)
1992 Maragha massacre of Armenians
1992 Stepanakert: months long war-crime bombardment by Grads and artillery.
City leveled. Estimated 2000 civilians killed. Thousands more wounded.
And of course the military invasion of Nagorno Karabagh Republic by Azeris which cost thousands of Armenian lives.
Kudos to Avery for clarifying the sequence for us.
RVDV —
“Why on earth would a Christian cathedral be used as a Muslim mosque? Well since the Hagia Sophia was the Imperial Ottoman Mosque from 1453 till 1923- meaning the Sultan prayed there, and as a mosque in general until 1931- I’m sure there must have been a reason.”
This is not an explanation. Why would a Christian Greek patriarchal cathedral become the “Imperial Ottoman Mosque” in the first place? Why would a sultan pray in an originally Christian cathedral? Why couldn’t Muslim Turks build their own place of worship and practice their religion there? Why desecrate a place of worship that belongs to other people, other religion? What kind of reasoning there might be for such blasphemous acts?
“Yes, true, except your plaster argument was used by John to show that the Ottomans did not want to destroy the mosaics, simply cover them up. You can interpret this plastering situation any way you want.”
Why would the Ottomans ‘simply cover the mosaics up’ in a place of worship that’s not theirs, either from religious or historical perspecrtive?
“It was a mosque for nearly 500 years, and mosques generally have those things, so what on earth are you trying to prove?”
I’m trying to prove what’s known to the world: a magnificent Christian cathedral was transformed into a Muslim mosque, essentially a blasphemous act and so typical to the savage Ottoman behavior.
“The Turks could have demolished the Hagia Sophia itself if they really wanted to, let’s be serious.”
Oh, we know this, thanks. A glance at what ‘civilized’ Turks did to 3000 Armenian monasteries and churches in Eastern Asia Minor keeps us ‘serious’ about the nature of Turks. Always!
“I was in Turkey last month and visited the Hagia Sophia. There were at least as many Christian elements as there were Islamic. “Then you declare what is left as ‘museums’”…. For a 1500 year old structure, the Hagia Sophia is in remarkable.”
Again, what right do the Turks have to transform a Christian cathedral to a ‘museum’? How on earth can a place of religious worship become a ‘museum’? It’s idiotic! And so Turkish!
“It is not an understatement to say that the Ottomans revered the Hagia Sophia.”
You mean to say the Ottomans revered Hagia Sophia as a Christian cathedral or as a mosque they transformed a Christian cathedral into? There must be something fundamentally wrong with the Turkish psyche if instead of building their own places of worship they generally prefer to transform (or destroy) the places of worship of other peoples into mosques? What does this tell about the nature of the Turks? Ever thought of that?
“Come on now, the Ottomans did not destroy everything they got their hands on, be fair, try to be fair.”
The humanity is so thankful, RVDV, that the Ottomans did not destroy EVERYTHING they got their hands on. Quite a ‘convincing’ point here, really! Whatever they didn’t destroy was transformed to ‘museums’. Silly us, how can we not see such a vivid ‘civilizational’ progression?
“Les Turcs ont passé a tout est ruine et deuil.” (The Turks have traversed there, all is ruin and mourning) — Victor Hugo
P.S. Not only is the deliberate physical destruction of a people relevant to genocide, but the destruction or islamization of their cultural and religious monuments, too. It’s highly relevant, wake up!
I sense some hostility towards museums on your part. They’re cool places, you should go to one.
Boyajian –
Through contacts with Turks on these pages I came to believe that they lack the capacity to get the sequence correct. They only notice what was done TO the Turks and not what was done BY the Turks in the first place as a result of their invasions of Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Middle East and their colonization of indigenous peoples inhabiting these regions. Note the lack of intellectual capacity to get the sequence correct in Murat’s post: “With a straight face people talk about Mongolia, 1453, etc. why not Hodjaly?” Read: the h*** with Sumgait, Baku, Kirovabad, Maragha where murders and pogroms of Armenians took place BEFORE controversial killings in Hodjaly. Important is to point out the deaths of AzeriTurks, all others—caused BY AzeriTurks–are not important. A typical, and, unfortunately, unchangeable Turkish mentality!
Berch, sadly, very few Turks who post here are willing to see the whole story without Turkish filters which promote excessive Turkish pride and insensitivity to non-Turks.
Berch, Boyajian:
I have yet to see a Turk poster @AW that does not expect sympathy for their suffering in exchange for acknowledging the AG. Their suffering caused by wars they got themselves into is put on the same plane as the AG. Even the ones that seemingly appear to acknowledge AG, want it cheap: “say sorry, and move on.”
Always maneuvering to give a little, and get a lot in return.
Also, let’s not fall into the trap of agreeing it was in any sense their suffering v our suffering as Akcam’s 2009 article in these pages maintains admirably.
It was our suffering both as civilians and conscripts and officers in a nation at war, who suffered until a second level of Genocidal destruction was loosed by the Turks on their own citizens, conscripts and officers, see for example what happened to the hero of Canakkale, Captain Torossian, who sunk an Entente ship only to find his family murdered.
I would argue that in a way it’s human nature. Everyone wants to see their ancestors in a positive light, not as ruthless genocide perpetrators. However with the attempted cover up does no one any good. In let’s say one hundred years or so Turks COULD have said ” yes my ancestors committed genocide but they were willing to apologize and pay for their crime”. What do we have now? My ancestors committed genocide and denied it for 100 years. It’s gonna take some serious propaganda to spin that in a good light. Genocide well.. It happens unfortunately- what the point of denying it? We all know it happened, we will pay for it eventually and look even worse.
Dear Boyajian
It is not pride
It is Inhumanity
To look proud
And throw people out
Who are serving their people
Their community
To feel superior
They showed their real hatred
Real revenge
They can never hide
Because birthed with their genes…
Dear Avery,
I appreciate your above short post very much!!!!
Because it shows your MATURITY,even though I know you are very young!!!
Yes the NATURE (Voj,in Armenian) Khasiat in lingo Turco -of them is like you specify and MORE.let me add please.
Sometimes they will begin to accept /acknowledge -going out of their usual Denial stance, then soften up by and by YAVASH YAVASH give in like throwing in Akhtamar, then St. Giragos then , bowing to U.S. Congress ¨URGING ¨THEM TO RETURN CHURCHES ,HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS OF CHRISTIANS to lawfull owners…do so again by and by. Even some of their so called historians/professors are very cautious…
En fin!!!! good news is that all above are SOME softening signs ,no not readily tendered to Armenians (Giavours)as they called us in Ottoman times and even later on (amongst themselves) then Rayas etc.,these Indeed THANKS TO COUNTRIES SUCH AS F R A N C E AND USA.LET US WAIT AND SEE WHAT GREAT BRITAIN AND THEN OTHERS will do react!!!
Latest blow to Erdogan was ,as you probalby know THAT HE DECLARED EVEN IF THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT DOES NOT APPROVE RATIFY THE BILL HE WILL PRESENT A N O T H E R .
tHIS MAN HAS COJONES AND WILL NOT TAKE ANY CHANGE !!!!
Dear Mr. Palandjian:
Thank you for your kind words.
(BTW: I am young enough, but definitely not ‘very’ young)
Is this what you were able to sense, RVDV? Some hostility towards museums on my part? Intellectually advanced posters would have sensed my hostility towards TRANSFORMING Christian cathedrals, monasteries, and churches into mosques and museums. Next time you visit Akhtamar, try to convince yourself that what you read on the display board near the structure (museum) and what you actually see (a monastery) is identical and then share with us how ‘cool’ your perception was.
“Intellectually advanced posters would have sensed my hostility towards TRANSFORMING Christian cathedrals, monasteries, and churches into mosques and museums.”
Apparently you were not able to sense my sarcasm. Let’s call it even. Many of the once church, now museum’s are museums partly because there no Christians to go pray there- due to genocide, population exchanges, etc. These are often ancient structures which are quite expensive to maintain. Museums bring income used to keep the structures in tact. Regarding the Church of the Holy Cross, many wrongs have been done. It was a Kurdish writer and activist that saved it from destruction in the 1950s. It was reopened as a museum in 2007, but in 2010 Armenians were allowed to hold service there, and the controversy of putting a cross at the top of church was settled, with the cross being used. I understand that these things even being controversial in Turkey is wrong and shows intolerance, but publicity stunt or not, services are allowed to be performed (I believe once a year.). I hope to visit this Church one day, it is a church I don’t care what the sign says, it is a church.
“in a way it’s human nature. Everyone wants to see their ancestors in a positive light, not as ruthless genocide perpetrators.”
Not everyone. Germans, as one example, had the courage to accept that their Nazi ancestors were ruthless genocide perpetrators. Russians acknowledged and apologized for the purges comitted under the Stalinist regime. There are several other examples, too. Why can’t Turks do the same with regard to their Ottoman Ittihadist ancestors?
Germans are a good example yes, Turks could learn a lot from them. But still, Hitler and Nazi Germany do not define the German people’s history as a whole. Russians? They STILL attempts to oppress people today. Apologizing for the Stalin regime, continuing to do more of the same.
despite insinuations from some quarters that Germans capitulated to the powerful and wealthy Jewish Diaspora, and they do not really feel remorse for the Holocaust, all observable acts and facts prove Germans’ genuine national shame and revulsion for the barbaric acts of genocidal Nazis.
Willie Brand’s kneeling was clearly genuine and from the heart: no amount of Jewish pressure can account for such an act of contrition.
Germans have such a disgust for Nazis, that it borders on hatred: even displaying Nazi paraphernalia is a crime in Germany.
Germans feel such deep remorse for what they did to Jews, that they have gone way beyond their ‘call of duty’ to support the State of Israel: the 3 super-quiet diesel submarines that carry Israel’s 3rd leg of the nuclear triad were built and gifted to Israel by Germany. (Germany definitely did not have to do that)
[And nobody forced Germans to produce Aghet: it was from the heart]
Turks showed remorse for the AG by threatening to bomb and invade newly born Republic of Armenia.
“the Turks invaded, captured, usurped, converted and destroyed as they saw fit”
Some examples? Ottomans, last Turkic empire, broke up and gave room to over two dozen nation states, representing almost all religions and ethnicities of the region. Intact with all their religious and cultural institutions. Does not seem like a lot of destruction to me. Many small nations would have been buried in the heap of history long time ago if Ottomans had not carried them through centuries on their coat tails. I am not ignoring all other terrible things that may have happened, but facts are facts.
The real point is, you do not hear about this “wrong” being corrected, no demands for resolutions, hate campaigns etc., who is fuleing the cycle of revenge? It is very ironic that you mention cycle of revenge in a site like this.
Now get this, the Cordoba site was never a “proper” church before the Moors. Yes, there was a basilica and a temple before that. The region was populated by Aryan (?) when Moors arrived. Beliefs and practices of this Christian sect was closer to Islam than Christianity apparently. No divinity of Jesus etc. They were of course tormented by “proper” Christians. In time they converted to Islam and their “temple” was expanded into the Mesjit. Even the propagandistic tourist brochures (printed by church) today do not refer to a previous church. All this was told to me in person by a subject matter expert Spanish Phd on the spot, and in hushed voice. Arcehological evidences are manipulated often.
The fact that Sultan of Andalusia at the time had a Jewish Vezir should give you an idea of what is what.
Nothing is more dangerous than a half-ignorant person. Ignorant are at least aware of their limitations. Those of you who dealt with Wiki know how it has turned into a battle ground for ethnic and religious and political propaganda. A look at Armenian related articles tells the whole story.
Copying and pasting does not make a person learned as clearly seen.
Also imagine me starting a paragraph with “typical Armenian…”, you think it would get through or not at least protested?
{“All this was told to me in person by a subject matter expert Spanish Phd on the spot, and in hushed voice. Arcehological evidences are manipulated often.”}
Sure: a Spanish PhD in hushed voices, etc. How dramatic. Such hard evidence.
Much better than Wiki.
Here something not from Wiki: Christianity is 2000 years old. Islam is about 1100 years old. Christianity had 900 year head starts. Which is more likely to have built religious objects and building first ?
and yes I can imagine “typical of many Armenians….” , not “typical Turk” (as I wrote “typical of many Turks”): see the difference ?
Islam is not 1100 years old. It is about 1450 years old. 670 ADish. Wikipedia can be useful.
My mistake. It is about 610 AD. Making it 1402 year old.
I stand corrected: I was off by 300 years.
Christianity had a 600 year head start (not 900):
again, who built first ? who converted whose ?
“Kudos to Avery for clarifying the sequence for us.”
Oh well, all is clear now… Mass murder and genocide is ok as long as you do it in the proper sequence!
which “Mass murder and genocide” are you talking about ?
The Hamidian mass murder, massacre of 1895 ?
The Adana mass murder, massacre of 1909 ?
The Armenian Genocide of 1915-1923 ?
The Dersim mass murder, massacre of 1938 ?
The Istanbul Pogroms of 1955 ?