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Sassounian: Turks and Azeris Alarmed that Tuvalu May Recognize Republic of Artsakh

March 16 was like any other day at the United Nations, when the representatives of Armenia and Tuvalu signed a joint declaration establishing diplomatic relations. Tuvalu is a tiny state in the South Pacific, much smaller than Manhattan, with a population barely over 10,000. Who would have thought that such a routine announcement would alarm Turkey and Azerbaijan?

This news item would have been ignored by the world media were it not for the “acute” eyes of Ugur Ergan, the “astute” reporter of the Turkish Hurriyet newspaper. He brought Tuvalu out of its obscurity for a short while, making it the most talked about country in Turkish and Azerbaijani circles. Ergan quoted unnamed Ankara officials as stating that Armenia had established diplomatic relations and offered tons of money to Tuvalu so that it would be the first country to recognize Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabagh) as an independent state

Ergan further disclosed that Ankara is “disturbed” by Tuvalu’s possible recognition of Artsakh, suspecting that Armenia would do what Turkish officials have done for decades—buy political favors in return for lucrative gifts. They attribute to others what they routinely practice themselves. As the Holy Bible states, they see the splinter in someone else’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in their own eye!

Even more alarmed were Azerbaijan’s officials who assumed that Tuvalu would shortly recognize Artsakh. Aydin Mirzazade, a parliamentarian from the ruling New Azerbaijan Party, in an interview with reporter I. Isabalayeva, ridiculed Tuvalu’s readiness “to recognize any state, even a non-existent country, for a small amount of money.” Mirzazade understands well the practice of buying favors. It has been widely reported that Azerbaijan’s foreign minister put his country’s immense petrodollars to “good use” last year by providing generous financial inducements to poor countries in exchange for their votes for a UN Security Council seat.

Azerbaijan was following its elder brother’s, Turkey’s, footsteps at vote-buying at the UN. Gareth Jenkins reported in the Eurasian Daily Monitor that the Turkish government had enticed to Istanbul the leaders of Tuvalu, Tonga, Nauru, Vanuatu, Solomon Islands, Marshall Islands, Cook Islands, Papua New Guinea, Palau, Fiji, Micronesia, and Samoa to secure their votes for Turkey’s membership in the Security Council. Those who have never heard of these Pacific islands should not feel embarrassed. Turkey’s former Deputy Prime Minister Abdullatif Shener had the honesty to confess, “I had never heard of the names of some of them before, but they all have a vote at the UN.” Turkey’s scheme succeeded. It gained a seat on the UN Security Council in 2008 by offering tens of millions of dollars to dozens of little-known countries in far-flung corners of the world.

Yilmaz Ozdil, a more forthright commentator for Hurriyet, boldly countered Ergan’s report, confirming that Turkey was the first to offer “bribes” to Tuvalu and many others. Ozdil disclosed that to obtain a seat on the Security Council, Turkey had provided as kickbacks:

– medicines to Angola, Ethiopia, Gambia, Sudan, and the Comoros;

– a trade center to Zimbabwe;

– stables to Mauritania;

– a drinking water network to Niger;

– water wells to Ethiopia;

– school kits to Ghana;

– a field hospital to Sudan;

– cattle-breeding technology to Mozambique and Mauritania;

– an electric grid to Benin;

– a smelting house to Gambia;

– training schools to Eritrea, Togo, Lesotho, and Uganda;

– a police training to Guinea;

– vaccines to Mali;

– humanitarian assistance to Tanzania and Chad;

– a school to Congo;

– a sewer system to Liberia and Sierra Leone;

– a VIP minibus to Palau;

– computers to Antigua;

– soccer balls and pumps to Tuvalu;

and had wined and dined the visiting prime minister of St. Vincent and the Grenadines, stuffed his pocket with gifts, and placed a private jet at his disposal to fly to Izmir.

Another Turkish commentator, Deniz Zeyrek, wrote a hilarious column in the newspaper Radikal, headlined: “Tuvalu: Give our soccer balls back.” To buy votes at the UN, Zeyrek reported that Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu had asked the visiting Tuvalu prime minister if his country needed anything. Tuvalu officials made a surprising request, saying that their children liked to play soccer, but had no balls. Turkey immediately dispatched to Tuvalu hundreds of soccer balls along with pumps. Tuvalu then complied with Turkey’s demand, supporting its bid to join the UN Security Council.

Zeyrek concluded his article with the following sarcastic question: “Will Turkey now ask for its balls back, if Tuvalu recognizes Karabagh’s independence?”

95 Comments on Sassounian: Turks and Azeris Alarmed that Tuvalu May Recognize Republic of Artsakh

  1. Wouldn’t it just be easier for everyone in the region if Turkey just faced its genocidal past and made good to the Armenians and the Azeri’s just realize that Karabagh was and always will be ARMENIAN???

  2. This made me sad. Alarmed over a country our ministers probably can’t even locate on a map.

    • it sure is sad….but this should not surprise you RVDV.. i am sure you knew this about your own country right? nothing surprises me when it comes to Turkey and Azerbaboons and everything they undertaking.. not at all….

    • Gayane:

      True I should know better by know, But I sometimes wonder though whether the Turkish government knows that acts like this make them seem even more guilty. But then again, I incorrectly assume my country is run by rational, reasonable people.

    • RVDV,

      Turks must be very lucky to have people like you identify themselve as Turks. If I was born in Turkey to an Armenian or Kurdish family, firstly I would get out of Turkey as soon as I would get a chance, and secondly, after acquiring new citizenship in Armenia or elsewhere I would completely abandon my Turkish identity, and identify myself as an Armenian or Kurdish.

      As to Turkey, her nose has always been in Armenia’s business.

    • Sella,

      you are damn wrong. Being a Turk itself is an honour.. a great honour.

      ask Boyajian for how..

    • Sella: You see, if I did what you suggested, Necati here would win- can’t let that happen. And also, I am not ashamed of my Turkish identity so I want to keep it. I can’t make the Turkish government or a majority of Turkish people better people, but that doesn’t mean I should just quit and abandon my identity.

    • come on RVDV,

      we all know armenians and kurds are losers.. and the winner is…… TURKS .

      just check history you will see what i am saying.

      We ruled 3 continents once..the biggest after our brothers , Mongols..

    • RVDV.. thought you are a Kurd.. and not a Turk. Why would you consider yourself a Turk knowing what they are doing to Kurds and what they have done to other Christians?? if you are considering yourself a Turkish citizen then it is a totally different ball park. Have not figured this out..still confusing..

    • Gayane:

      I am a Kurd by blood, and I’ve always been proud of it, but that’s about it. In nearly all other respects, I’m as much of a Kurd as you are. I say I’m a Turk- I know the history of Turkish people and what theyve done and continue to do to Kurds and Christians, but that doesn’t change how I feel. I didn’t choose to “feel” Turkish over Kurdish, it just happened.

    • RVDV.. did not make sense at all.. but i will leave it at that..

    • RVDV,

      Refusing identify yourself as a Turk, if you are not an ”ethnic Turk”, is not a matter of being ashamed to be a Turk but rather staying true to your roots. But assimilation is a powerful tool, and we can do nothing about it. In a way it is good because it makes the country more homogenous but it is also very bad because culture, language and tradition get lost over time or blend in with more dominant culture.

      Armenians from Turkey that I have met, when asked where they come from, always said that they were from Turkey but they were Armenians. I guess, I would not have a chance to meet Armenians who were assimilated and identify themselve as Turks.

  3. Thank you Mr. Sassounian for doing your homework well to state all the bribes both Turkey and Azerbaijan make to buy votes to get their way to reign the UN, to deny the Armenian Genocide and to delay the recognition of OUR own lands Artsakh. I hope and pray that Tuvalu would recognize Artsakh as soon as possible.

  4. “But then again, I incorrectly assume my country is run by rational, reasonable people.”

    Incorrectly you do, RVDV. How rational and reasonable is it for a political leader to openly threaten to “drop a couple of bombs on Armenia” since the latter “didn’t learn lessons of what happened in Anatolia” (a direct hinting on the genocide)? –Turgut Ozal, President of Turkey, 1993

    In the post-modern world how often do we hear such explicit words from the head of state? These are your rational, reasonable Turkish people…

    • Just to be certain, I wasn’t being sarcastic… And well Ozal was a nationalist that wanted to create a unified Turkic nation. It is said that is why he was murdered, though Turkish officials claim it was a heart attack.

    • Berch jan.. only from Turkey and her sick little brother Azerbaboons…

      No other civilized nation (even if they are nasty and corrupt) would openly threaten this way and yet the world stands aside and lets Turkey to do whatever she pleases.. it is beyond my comprehension as to why the world especially US (we pretty much know why when it comes to US) allow this sick man of Europe to act the way she has been acting..

  5. avatar Hairenakitz on YouTube // April 3, 2012 at 10:59 pm // Reply

    Turkey in the Security Council?
    What a joke!!!
    Nevertheless, nothing new about Turkish governments shrewd & manipulative policies of bribery and buying-off worldwide politicians, academics and historians since its formation. So, it’s not too late for Armenian government to adopt the same nasty tactics in their regard.

    Mr. Sassounian, this is a great article.
    I take this as a ‘Wakeup Call’ not only for Armenian government, but also for the Diaspora.
    Do you see what I see, and what are your suggestions?
    Since there is only 3-years left to the ‘Centenary o Armenian Genocide’ as a deadline for Turkey to face its brutal past, instead to undermine Armenian efforts has embarked in massive campaign of establishing a false regional and world position, deceitfully forcing the US and other powers to rely completely on Turkey’s mediating role in Muslim countries, beside its role in Iran’s nuclear standoff, Iraq’s stability, Kurdish issue and Syria’s internal turmoil.

    • Turkey was in the Security Council during 2009-2010. So it is not a joke.

      An my suggestion is to stop worrying about Turkey, and think about how you can improve things in Armenia.

    • Tokado.. reality check.. most of Turkey’s lands ARE ARMENIAN… so therefore, we ARE working on improving Armenia.. ALL OF IT..

    • Real reality check. Those lands could have belonged to armenians at some point in the history but today they are inside the borders of Turkey. I don’t believe your salvation lies in the destruction of the integrity of a country.

    • Tokado,

      ”At some point in history” was less than 100 years ago. Kars treaty was signed without Soviet Armenia, and Armenia did not ratify Kars treaty not she had recognized the current boarder. Turkey’s integrity will be destroyed not because of Armenians but because of Kurds or mountain Kurds as you used to call them.. It is a matter of time.

    • I meant mountain Turks not mountain Kurds.

    • Under the Ottoman constitution only the Sultan himself could conclude treaties with powers. Neither Turkey nor Armenia were countries at this time. That said, I’m still not sure Armenian land claims would hold up in court.

    • RVDV,

      Armenia did not ratify the Kars treaty and does not recognize the current border. Whether Armenian land claim will result in anything or not only time will show. Taking into account that we are dealing with Turkey I am less optimistic but we know that borders change after big wars (Small changes always happen like Kosovo etc).

  6. avatar gaytzag palandjian // April 4, 2012 at 12:52 am // Reply

    Sorry my dear compatriots.I do not condone our side DOING WHAT turkoazeris do.We shall never fall that low.
    We are a noble people and straightforward,we have always been.Witness from st.Vartan down to all the way down to Sardarabad and Artsakh indeed.
    We did not bribe Uruguay to be the FIRST STATE TO RECOGNIZE THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE and all the other 20 to follow suit…nor the 40 something U.S. States and probalby ten more soon to come…
    I do believe either Uruguay and/or some other such will ALSO OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZE STATEHOOD OF ARTSAKH(Nagornyi Karabagh)….
    It is one thing to establish diplomatic relations, another to bribe a State to recognize Artsakh statehood.We shall almost hundred percent sure have ,as just wrote another state or Uruguay do so,without having to resort to turcoazeri style bribing.
    I shall pray to God allmighty-ñlet me say it…I HOPE AND TRUST THAT THIS TIME OVER OUR ARMENIAN GOD SMILE UPON US…..

    • I agree with Mr. Palandjian…

      Gayane

    • Yeah, like countries do things out of their kindness. Every country bribe to get things from others. It’s ugly, hypocritical, and it’s called international politics. Nobody acts without real or possible profit.

      Believing that countries recognize AG with their pureness of their hearts is just too naive.

  7. avatar gaytzag palandjian // April 4, 2012 at 10:59 am // Reply

    To Hairenakitz.
    Well yes,great Turkey has attained that position in the Security Council ,thanks to ¨friends¨—Same friends who support her to meddle-like you write in the Arab world, and/or even try to drag in Iran to her concocted up manipulations in the Middle East. You can rest assured neither Iran nor any Arab state(exceptions, small grantesd) will side with them or fall in the traps her diplomats are setting up. They know inside out of the old ottomam Turkey´s heirs manners have not changed.
    So far she(great Turkey) has not been able to settle problem she has with kurds nor will she do so with rest of her neighbours,if her method continues to be that of deceit,bribary and false promises…
    1. She failed to enter EU.
    2.Thje not too long ago istanbulla conference organized by her -also this recent one-could not get the others to declare her as leader of the Region.
    3. Relations with her important states do not show a positive stance.France proved that she will not accept her lies as to the Armenian Genocide-never mind the constitutional court´s not ratifying it-but the French public are well aware of their ¨acts¨ so are the Germans and other Euro nations,albeit the few who as yet have not quite understood that Iran and all arab states are much more TRUSTWORTHY than the great Turkey…

  8. guys Im surprised you”re talking about Turks in such a manner that you bear the grunge.In Turkey most of us possess heartly feelings towards armenians and all the people on earth.I believe your hostile behaviours and comments are all given rise by the education you received since the first grades. I suggest you dont get caught in this trap of creating imaginary enemies. Furthermore I just smiled while reading the comments claiming the desire to abandon Turkish citizenship if born in Turkey to a Kurdish or Armenian family. Even the Kurds in Turkey does not vote for the political party that defends the separation of Kurdistan from Turkey. Because they are aware the situation that there are many Kurdish politicians ( including ministers), professors and such progressive people who are wholeheartedly recognized and never discriminated in Turkey. I would want you to visit Turkey and meet the Armenians who were born and have chosen to build a life in Turkey instead of resettling in Armenia. I remember I had my college physics course from “”Harutyun Agopyan” who is an Armenian and one of the most loved figures in my university.
    As a conclusion you should shame on you to write such discriminating and violent contents here. I want to suppose that this website serves those who are right-leaning. And i still keep the hope that you are just very rare to carry hostile intentions towards Turkish people and most of the Armenians see the Turks the way we see you, the way I see my physics professor and the way he sees us…

    • Tezel.. it is absolutely heartbreaking to read your comment which reflects how ignorant and closed minded individuals like you who still live among us..unfortunately those who think like you will always attack ALL ARMENIANS for showing disgust toward denialists and NOT ALL Turkish citizens (you simply love to lump every Turk int he same pot because Turks themselves hate ALL ARMENIANS and think Armenians hate ALL TURKS.. very typical of a denialist to voice such a comments(. those who pretend to know something but in reality know nothing usually blame others for their shortcomings and that is exactlywhat you doing..

      it is sad really…I would humbly ask you to go on any Turkish online publications and read what Turks have to say about Armenians .. I am sure you would change your view how our comments present themselves.. the same comments that apparently paralized your inner self to the core that you felt you had to express your bias view…what a joke..

    • Well said Gayane:

      Tezel: go check the viciously Anti-Armenian placards displayed @ Taksim, before you bloviate about “….most of us possess heartly feelings towards armenians”.

      Make sure you make a little mental note that your country’s Interior Minister was there and gave a speech, and said nothing about placards such as “All Armenians are Bastards”.

      Hatred of Armenia and of Armenians is institutionalized in Turkey by the Turkish State.

    • Tezel, I share the same thoughts with you. In Turkey in my surroundings I have never seen someone having a negative thought about Armenians. I believe Turkey is not more racist than any other country, and having spent a good amount of time in Europe, I can even say that we are more tolerant to others than many EU countries.

      Internet is usually filled with extreme opinions, and I believe most of the comments here also present ultra nationalist views. Here you will be branded as ignorant, denialist, and close minded if you don’t express a hate towards turks.

    • “you simply love to lump every Turk in the same pot because Turks themselves hate ALL ARMENIANS ”

      Some would call that stereotyping Gayane.

  9. tokado:

    “Believing that countries recognize AG with the pureness of their hearts is just too naive.”

    This is exactly why Turks like you are different from the civilized nations: you historically and traditionally lack mercy, compassion, and remorsefulness. Why would Uruguay for Christ’s sake recognize the Armenian Genocide? What “real or possible profit” would this country get?! Can you explain with all the potency of your Turkish mindset?

    Turks like you lack a gene of compassion, because you may well be a direct descendant of terrorizing Seljuk invaders and the Ottoman mass murderers. That is why you’re different from the rest of the world who can recognize a human tragedy simply because it was a horrific loss of life in the hands of your bloodthirsty ancestors.

    • We can say the same for Tuvalu. What a country like Tuvalu can get to vote for Turkey’s Security Council bid. And in the it turns out that they are bribed with footballs.

      The nations, which you say civilized, have their nose on other countries’ affairs in every corner of the world. It’s not lack of mercy or compassion, because in international politics there are no such things. I don’t say it’s correct, but it is a reality.

  10. I don’t care if Ozal was a nationalist or a liberal democrat. He was Head of State. It’s neither rational nor reasonable for a head of state to utter such explicitly threatening statements. And elected presidents, generally speaking, represent their respective nations, don’t they?

    • Liberal Democrats usually do not threaten to drop bombs on people who did not “learn their lesson.” And elected presidents do represent the people, if the PEOPLE themselves elect the president, and not parliament.

  11. The electoral system differs from country to country, and president can be either directly elected by the populace or indirectly elected by the legislature. Notwithstanding how he or she is elected, president is the head of state, i.e. the chief public representative of a nation. The president is also the commander-in-chief of the nation’s armed forces. Therefore, by threatening to drop bombs on Armenia your president acted as the public representative of the Turkish nation as a whole.

    • Can we go back to the original topic? I think you agreed with something I said, commented about Ozal, then I commented that essentially he got what was coming to him. Now we’re talking about different systems of government- both of us. This is the definition of trolling. I apologize.

  12. Tuvalu State May Recognize Republic of Artsakh

    GOOD,

    BUT WHAT ABOUT ARMENIAN REPUBLIC ???

  13. Are you freaking serious ?? Who gives a crap about Tuvalu ?? Why not we start focusing on things that actually matter to Armenia? If things stay the same in 20 years there may not be even a country or at least people to live there. Guys wake up

  14. RVDV
    No, you should not be ashamed of your Turkish identity, nor you should abandon it for any reason whatsover. Anyone’s national identity is respectable and as a (Turkish) human being, I would say you should be proud of yourself. The one who should be ashamed of his “identity” and in fact of his/her own existence is the one who calls himself Necati, Necati Genis, Genis en what else not.

  15. i am sure you all know well that armenians are losers…in the past and today…and in the future.

    • I am sure we ALL don’t care what you think NECATI GENIS…

      Absolutely hillarious.. what a joke…lol

    • And then you complain when your posts don’t go through….

    • Gayane, RVDV,

      It is beneath you to respond to this creep. Please ignore him and he will, hopefully, get lost.

  16. Gina jan unfortunately these denialists are like a disease. They never go away. Its ok though the more they speak the better its for us cause they confirm their genocidal superiority and how idiotic they are.

  17. To Tezel and Tokado,

    “Tezel, I share the same thoughts with you. In Turkey in my surroundings I have never seen someone having a negative thought about Armenians”.

    I wonder why as a Turkish citizen/Turk you would have anything negative against Armenians? Do you know how beneficial it is for your state to have all the property and wealth from 1.5-2 million Armenians? Do you know how nice is it to earn billions from those properties alone annually? And, you Turkish citizens surely get some of that money as it goes to you country’s budget annually.

    I would like to see your reaction to a nation who killed over 75% of your people and stole 90% of their ancestral lands, and denies and falsifies the facts to this day. I hope you do not have any doubt about that since as we know your forefathers came from Central Asia and did not possess an inch of land in a territory what is known today as Turkey.

    As to abandoning the Turkish identity, I repeat myself, if I was born to an Armenian family in Turkey I will never identify myself as a Turk but Armenian, and I do not see a reason why I should not. We have a very beautiful language and culture, and it would have been an honor for me to keep it.

    • Sella: but where you and I differ is that I never HAD a Kurdish identity. I never learned Kurdish, I didn’t learn Kurdish culture or customs. I’ve never even been to central and eastern Turkey where the majority is many areas are Kurdish. I’ve only ever been on the West and South coast. That’s not my fault (not saying you said it was), I grew up with Turkish language, customs, and culture- however “stolen” it may be. Say you were a German that was born in France, learned French as your first language, your parents and grandparents speak only French and have embraced the French identity, you spent your entire life in nothing but French culture and customs. Though the blood in your veins is German, you don’t and you really CANNOT feel German, you essentially are a Frenchmen. It’s not that you abandoned your German identity because you never really had one.

    • Well said Sella jan.

    • RVDV,

      Now, I think I understand why you identify yourself as a Turk rather than a Kurd.
      It all has to do with your upbringing. For whatever reason your parents did not raise you with Kurdish culture. It is hard for me to imagine how it can happen but I am sure it can happen. I still do not understand why you had problems in Turkey when you identify yourself as a Turk. Is not it what Turks want-to assimilate all other ethnic groups and call them Turks? But to be honest with you, even if I grew up in an environment that you described, just seeing how Turkey is oppressing the culture of the people that I share the same blood, I would develop negative feelings about Turkey.

      I grow up in Armenia and left Armenia for quite a few years to receive education and work experience. One day when I will have my children, if I cannot raise them in Armenia, I will choose to raise them in the US simply because I can send them to Armenian schools (even though I like European lifestyle much better than American but I would choose to live in the US just for that reason).

      More or less I speak four languages fluently, but when it comes to raising a child, whether in Armenia or not, the only language that I will use to communicate with them will be Armenian. I do not know if they will remain
      Armenian later, but I believe if I lay a good foundation the chance will be higher.

      If tomorrow it turns out that I am half German, I will start learning the German language, history and culture. I may not feel half German right away but at least I will try my best to be close to the German culture.

    • Sella jan.. i can’t agree with you more on your last post..

      Hence, why I still can’t seem to wrap my mind around RVDV’s situation but then I may never understand..

      I sort of see where he is coming from but I can’t fully comprehend as to why one would abandon his Kurdish roots no matter how one raised as a child…

    • “I wonder why as a Turkish citizen/Turk you would have anything negative against Armenians? Do you know how beneficial it is for your state to have all the property and wealth from 1.5-2 million Armenians? Do you know how nice is it to earn billions from those properties alone annually?”

      Most of the comments here are based on the assumption that today’s Turks are evil and hate Armenians. That’s why I’m telling that it’s not true. The contribution of the East of the country to Turkey’s economy is unfortunately very minor compared to the west.

      “I would like to see your reaction to a nation who killed over 75% of your people and stole 90% of their ancestral lands,”

      Killing is of course wrong in any context. But the land was not stolen, is was conquered. And conquests are common in all history. Hittities did it, Urartus did it, and Turks too.

    • Tokado,

      Since when taking land from the indigenous people through genocide less than 100 years ago became common? Yes, it did happen in human history but can we call it common? And most importantly, we cannot compare events that happened 1000 years ago with events that happened less than 100 years ago.

      If concurring land is common why Turkey and her little brother Azerbaijan are still crying about Karabakh? Is not it time for them to get over it?

      How many billions has Turkey been receiving from her Incirlik Air Base alone?

  18. RVDV,

    What you are saying is understandable, you are culturally Turkish, but how do you feel about Kurds being oppressed and manipulated by Turks for such a long time? I have a feeling that you are not indifferent. Please don’t tell me that they did not do any of that.

    • It’s unfortunate the way Kurds still get treated, and I support an independent Kurdistan, but I don’t like their, and by they I mean the PKKs methods. Terrorism isn’t the answer. You can’t fight hate with hate- I mean you can but then you’ll have a 30 year old conflict like we do in the southeast of Turkey. The manipulation thing I blame the Kurds honestly. The first time, the AG and promises of a Turkish-Kurdish federated state, ok Kurds got screwed on that. But at some point Kurds need to be like we don’t trust you or your promises. But life for Kurds is getting better. MPs of the BDP party took their oaths in Kurdish and Turkish. The state-run tv channel TRT has a Kurdish channel (mostly music)- I mean hell Ahmet Kaya was exiled for wanting to produce Kurdish music… in 1999!

  19. Like anyone from Turkey, RVDV has the right to call himself Turkish if that is how he defines himself and how he was raised. My request is that he does so with the full, unadulterated, non-glorified, historically-accurate knowledge of what a Turk is….all of it. Then he should lead his friends, family and acquaintances to the same awareness: pride in all things pride-worthy and shame in all things shame-worthy. Let’s just deal in truth.

    • Does he though Boyajian jan?

      No one is blaming him, no one is abusing his presence on our discussion forums, no one is telling him he needs to stop being a Turk or a Kurd or whatever he wishes to see himself..

      I personally can’t read and understand his purpose on these pages in general.. he himself does not know what he believes in yet when it comes to Armenians, Armenian Cause and Genocide and its implications ( if I spoke out of context on that particular sentence, my apologies.. i am going off of memory and i believe he said that in one of his other posts)..and he does produce conflicting posts.. which is why the uncertainty and confusion.. but he is free to say and post whatever he likes.. but this is an Armenian forum and he is a Turk/Kurd ..which means we also have the right and freedom to question his intentions and his presence when there is confusion and unclearity…

      RVDV- hope you understand that no one has any ill feelings toward you ..and no one is going to intentionally cause unplesant comments toward you and be rude to you.. the posts and reactions come with the territory… because we question you and voice our opinion, it does not mean we are heartless people who are out there to get you..

      Unfortunately can’t say the same about your comrad Necati Not so Genis among other Turkish denialists on our pages..

      Good Day

    • avatar Boyajian // April 15, 2012 at 4:48 pm //

      Gayane, I can’t say what RVDV is or isn’t. I was just saying that whatever he (or anyone else) defines himself as doesn’t matter to me so much, as long as he/they deal in truth and reality. There are Turks, Kurds and Azeris that I would gladly call friends because I consider them moral and open-minded people capable of deep compassion and honesty. It’s not what you call yourself that matters to me—it’s what you believe and your actions that make you the person you are. Sometimes RVDV makes contradictory comments, but for the most part, he is more open-minded than 99 percent of Turks who post here, and I appreciate his willingness to admit that the genocide is real and that Turkey should make amends.

    • I felt like I should join in at some point so…

      I come here with an open mind. I may say something, read the replies- do some research and concede that I was wrong. And in later posts go with my new belief. Sometimes I agree with other posters and then upon a deeper look, change my view on it. It’s easy to be concise and clear if you’re not willing to even entertain the possibility that you may be wrong. However, regarding “Armenians, Armenian Cause and Genocide and its implications.”

      I have no problems with Armenians, have no reason to. Been clear on that. I support the Armenian cause and genocide recognition, but yes I’m not sure about the implications. I do think it’s a little unrealistic to expect the kind of full reparation says the Jews got. I am not aware of any other nation denying a genocide, especially for this long, and to be honest- be this successful at getting others to turn a blind eye. Denial will end some day, but whether eastern Turkey will once again become western Armenia- I have my doubts.

    • RVDV..

      Do you mind expanding on the following statement:

      “I am not aware of any other nation denying a genocide, especially for this long, and to be honest- be this successful at getting others to turn a blind eye. Denial will end some day”

      and why do you think they have been successful?

      I personally don’t see the denial ever ending until Turkey is punished and punished heavily… as you said..”denial will end some day” to you…what does that entail???

      Curious to know…

      Gayane

    • RVDV,

      Even if Turkey accepts the Armenian genocide, Turkey is not going to give back an inch of land to Armenia. That is impossible.

      And, no Armenians will never get the same reparations as Jews got. Firstly, a lot of time have past. Secondly, we can never compare Turkey with Germany. Turkey will bribe anyone she can to bypass the reparation or minimize it. If AG was committed by Germans, AG would have been recognized long time ago.

      The only way that Armenia can get some land back from Turkey is if geopolitical situation changes drastically and West and Russia, for their own benefit, will revive the Sevres treaty. Or if there is a war, somehow NATO will disassociate and Russia, France, Bulgaria, Greece, Armenia, and Kurds will form an alliance against Turkey. I do not see any of those happening in the near future.

    • Sella: Yes, I think if we look at the situation realistically, there will probably not be land transfer. I mean I understand it is your ancestral land, and in a better world, things would be different, but the reality is that Western Armenia is Eastern Turkey, and it probably won’t change unless something extreme happens. I don’t think Armenia should drop its land claims, but if the no.1 priority is genocide recognition, then perhaps land transfer shouldn’t be in the genocide recognition “package.” Let’s be honest, if recognizing a crime means you give up money, properties, and land, and no one is currently forcing you to, AND you are bad human beings on top of this, why would you recognize? It sounds horrible, and it is, but I think genocide recognition, as things are today, will be more on Turkey’s terms unfortunately.

      Gayane: “and why do you think they have been successful?”

      Well Turkey and the US have a mutually beneficial relationship, but if one day that changes- which it may you never know, then perhaps things will change. But as I said above, if Armenia approaches with a compromise, and I know they shouldn’t have to, and 99% won’t then it could end. The issue could be whether some recognition is better than none? Just an idea, though obviously not the best for Armenia. I mean look, one side has to meet the other half way, and Turkey won’t and right now no one is forcing us.

    • RVDV,

      I have to say you are very diplomatic about what you deeply would like to see happening but at the same time you try to minimize the side effects of your comment by turning the tide more toward on our side..like the one below..

      “But as I said above, if Armenia approaches with a compromise, and I know they shouldn’t have to, and 99% won’t then it could end. The issue could be whether some recognition is better than none? Just an idea, though obviously not the best for Armenia. I mean look, one side has to meet the other half way, and Turkey won’t and right now no one is forcing us.”

      Is this your subtle way of saying we need to step back and consider kissing Turkey’s butt to receive something back???? according to you, if not everything but something should be enough well my “friend” that is not a very strong argument or even an answer to my question…

      just because no one is forcing you NOW, it does not mean Armenia needs to meet Turkey half way.. and i can say this.. i hope they never do.. but one day Turkey will be forced you can believe that…

      Gayane

  20. “RVDV has the right to call himself Turkish ”

    Boyajian and the orher ermenians,

    RVDV found the right way. i am sure you all can too..

  21. Gayane, Sella
    I can’t understand why you cannot comprehend the situation with RVDV. The man does’t deny his Kurdish roots, but he has been brought up and raised in a totally Turkish surrounding, as he explains. I have met Turkish-Armenians who speak only Turkish and when they go to church they ask for a sermon also in Turkish so that they can understand it. They don’t care about learning the Armenian language and I don’t blame them. Except for the church, they haven’t had any Armenian cultural background. (compare this to some Armenians in Armenia who speak Russian). Diasporan Jews speak the language of the country whose citizen they are and consider themselves as having the national identity of that country. No one expects them to go and learn Hebrew.
    This is not a black-and-white matter, but it should always be looked at in its proper perspective.
    I find nothing wrong with RVDV considering himself culturally as Turkish rather than Kurdish, while also not being indifferent towards the fate of Kurds, just as with Armenians – at least judging on his postings on these pages. I think he may rightly be considered as a Turkish intellecutal worthy of commendation.

    • Arshag,

      When did I say that I could not comprehend the situation with RVDV.?

      All I said was that I would not identify myself as a Turk if I was born to an Armenian family in Turkey. And I will raise my children with Armenian culture and language even if I lived in a different country.

    • Arshag: Well as long as someone understands me :), I didn’t think it would be this confusing.

    • Don’t expect all to understand those who can’t yet stand on their own on certain issues and still question themselves by changing their mind.. so expect questions and doubts…no one is obligated to accept those who they are not convinced about…

  22. Tokado says:
    “Killing is of course wrong in any context. But the land was not stolen, is was conquered. And conquests are common in all history. Hittities did it, Urartus did it, and Turks too.”

    When you deport an entire segment of your citizens because they belong to a particular ethnic group and then proceed to illegally confiscate their wealth and property is this not theft? Or did the Young Turks ‘conquer’ the Armenians and other non-Turkish citizens in 1915?

  23. “RVDV has the right to call himself Turkish if that is how he defines himself and how he was raised. My request is that he does so with the full, unadulterated, non-glorified, historically-accurate knowledge of what a Turk is”

    Boyajian,

    what is a “Turk” ?

  24. Genis, good question. Do you have an answer?

  25. “But the land was not stolen, is was conquered”, says tokado. How Turkish! Meaning it’s OK if the land of others is conquered, looted, and their native populations subjugated. After all, “conquests are common in all history”, says tokado. But guess what: the deliberate exterminations of peoples are not. There are only a few instances in all history of such gruesome genocidal acts, and Turks are one of the perpetrators.

    For you information: Hittities and Urartian proto-Armenians were indigenous peoples; they needed not conquer other people’s lands as did nomadic Central Asian Seljuk Turks.

    • Berch,

      It is useless to try to convince Turks like Tokado. Under conquer they can justify genocide, rape, forceful assimilation, theft, looting, kidnapping, slaughtering, and basically everything. It is very unfortunate for us to have a neighbor like Turkey.

    • I told the “conquest” argument against the “our lands for thousands of year” argument. It has nothing to do with AG. It’s about the Selcuk Turks era, and the Armenian land they conquered. At that point it was Turkish land. It’s said those lands are rightfully Armenians’ because Armenians are indigenous, I say that does not constitute a valid claim.

      “It is very unfortunate for us to have a neighbor like Turkey.”

      Feelings are mutual…

    • Tokado,

      When you are pushed to the corner all you denialists can do is take what we say and turn it on us.. typical of a Turk who believe the world revolves around him.. or them because of their golden goose..the money, the lands, and the wealth that was stolen from Armenians, and other Christians at the time…it is the money that helps Turkey to accomplish what they want.. otherwise no one would even spit on TUrkey’s way if it was not the money… it is unfortunate that it is the money that speaks louder than conscious in greedy politicians who become the watch dogs of Turkey..Turkey feels very comfortable knowing all they have to do is shove money in these scums’ mouths to turn them into their puppets. but unforuntate for people like you TOKADO, that won’t last too long.. the world is waking up.. and YES.. it will take time (Turkey is very keen on time because the more time lags and the more they drag this matter, the better for them) but these ignorant and arrogant group of people don’t realize ARmenians will never stop the fight… be now or 100 years from now… so continue to be as ignorant and arrogant as you would like, but one day your bubble will burst and it will burst soooo hard that all the ugliness and infection you held against Christans and minority since the beginning of time will desend upon your race.. and hope then you denialists will realize that being a human being should be # one priority in your denialists lives and carrying out a gruesome and heartless act like Genocide will eventually be brought to justice and the perpetrator will get punished..

      So go ahead and have a mutual feeling about having Armenia as your neighbors, the fact remains it was your ancestors and it was your current govt along with ultra nationalist who are the ugly, bad and arrogant…

  26. Yeah, Genis, go ahead, tell us who you think “a Turk” is? Don’t forget forced marriages, abductions to harems, forced religious conversions, Devirshme conscriptions, and intermingling with millions of indigenous Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, and others throughout the centuries. Don’t also forget the roots: Central Asian nomadic Seljuks.

    So who is “a Turk” after all?

  27. RVDV:

    I believe Armenian “land claims”, as you call it, or land restitution as we call it (and more properly so since we’re not claiming the lands of others), may hold up in an international court as part of reparations package for the genocidal extermination of people and based on their proven existence on them for millennia resulting in the creation of wealth and physical properties—all stolen, appropriated, utilized for enrichment, or simply destroyed by the Turks.

    • True, very true everything you say. And I hope it does hold up in court. But this “This can also be supplemented with facts that Armenia was inexistent as an independent state at the time of the Genocide and that the victims were mainly the subjects of the Ottoman Empire itself” is also a way some look at it. I don’t think anyone else has ever denied genocide before so it will be interesting to see how things shape up, if we get there.

    • Berch, with respect, I believe that any issue of land advanced by Armenians has to be completely separate from the genocide. Any land claims/restitution have their legal basis in international law, namely in treaties signed by the Ottoman Empire and the First Republic of Armenia. Legal basis in treaties is vitally different from emotional basis in genocide compensation. Territorial compensation has no basis in international law, according to Taner Akcam.

      The more Armenians tie the land claims to genocide, the more they are opening themselves up to easy “oh, let’s be realistic here, all land was conquered by force at some point” arguments.

  28. avatar Necati Genis // April 16, 2012 at 4:39 am // Reply

    “I believe Armenian “land claims”, as you call it, or land restitution as we call it may hold up in an international court as part of reparations ”

    almost all armeni people here in AW are in dream. a deep sleep.

    how can a court take the land that was conquered 1000 years ago on the war fields ?

    you are all funny people.

  29. avatar john the turk // April 16, 2012 at 1:22 pm // Reply

    Necati
    It is very real and convincing, If you take your medicine that can be provided by the Dashnak ideology . I am not going to make further comment on this for the obvious reason

  30. Necati no so Genis.. several commentators asked you a legitimate question.. a thought provoking question.. so instead of clowining around showing off your comical but not so funny side, why don’t you answer the question FIRST before going off tangent.. unless your brain can’t comprehend and provide answers to thought provoking and truth revealing questions…

    We are all ears…

  31. OK, Genis: Armenians, as you think, are funny people, but you’ve never answered who the Turks were, have you? RVDV here is clearly smarter than you manifold. He or she, as opposed to you, understood that land restitution may hold up in an international court as part of reparations for genocidal extermination notwithstanding the ugly fact that the land was conquered a thousand years ago. For your information, even in the Ottoman empire six most heavily Armenian-populated provinces were called “The Armenian Vilayets”.

  32. Well, RVDV:

    Another way for some to look at it is the Treaty of Sèvres and the Mandate for Armenia that the US President Woodrow Wilson was charged in drawing the boundaries for the new Republic of Armenia. The Map of Armenia still bears the Great Seal of the United States as an official document and was never legally announced null and void.

    May it be recalled that the Treaty of Sèvres is the only treaty that bears legitimate signatures of Turkey and Armenia.

    • Yes, but Turkey never ratified the Treaty of Sevres. Again, I have no clue how this will end up in court, because although it is not explicitly said in it, the Treaty of Lasuanne is generally accepted as superseding Sevres- even though again, it is not specifically mentioned.

  33. Armenia never signed the Treaty of Lausanne. Nowhere in the Treaty of Lausanne, right you are, it is stated that it supersedes the Treaty of Sèvres. Thus, the only treaty bearing signatures of the legitimate representatives of Armenia and Turkey is Sèvres, whether ratified or not. As a matter of legal fact.

  34. avatar john the turk // April 17, 2012 at 1:56 pm // Reply

    Berch
    What prevents you materializing the Sevres Treaty? Go for it go go

  35. yahya the turk:

    legally nothing. waiting for international recognition of the genocide by more key countries… impatient?

  36. Alex:

    I get your point and it may have some validity in it, but just how the issue of land can be completely separate from the genocide if it was genocide that deprived the Armenians of their ancestral lands? Some international lawyers, such as Alfred de Zayas, admit that “a determination of the crime of genocide by the International Court of Justice would facilitate the settlement of claims for [land and properties’] restitution” and this is what I had in mind when responding to RVDV.

    P.S. Taner Akcam, a brave, respectable Turkish intellectual, is a social historian not an international lawyer. Neither am I. I just share thoughts from my own readings into the subject.

    • Alex: “oh, let’s be realistic here, all land was conquered by force at some point” arguments.

      I agree, that argument can be brought up, and this is the problem I have. Now of course the lands in question are historical Armenian lands. Even though land transfer would come at the expense of my country, I think at the bare minimum Mt. Ararat and surrounding areas should be returned to Armenia. However, the same lands in question have been under Ottoman and Turkish control since 1514. If the Ottomans invaded independent Armenia and did this, yeah, there’s no doubt there would be territory transfer. But that wasn’t the case.

    • Well said Berch jan…

  37. “ If the Ottomans invaded independent Armenia and did this, yeah, there’s no doubt there would be territory transfer. But that wasn’t the case.”

    The case was much worse than an invasion, RVDV. It was a crime against humanity, i.e. a crime much more gruesome than a mere military invasion. It was a deliberate destruction of a distinct ancient ethnos and its physical, cultural, and civilizational presence on those lands for millennia. It is based on this heinous crime that the Sevres Treaty and the Map of Armenia were prepared and drafted. The Map includes territories well beyond Mt. Ararat and the surrounding areas.

    “However, the same lands in question have been under Ottoman and Turkish control since 1514.” So? Other lands also have been under Ottoman and Turkish control for a few hundred years. Would you like to claim the Balkans, the Middle East, and Hejaz back?

    I agree with some international lawyers that “a determination of the crime of genocide by the International Court of Justice would facilitate the settlement of claims for [land] restitution”. It’s not going to be an easy process, but for two peoples to live in peace this needs to be done.

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