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‘Your demands are our demands’: Turkish Human Rights Group Sends Letters to Etchmiadzin, Antelias

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ISTANBUL, Turkey (A.W.)–The Committee Against Racism and Discrimination of the Istanbul Branch of the Human Rights Association sent letters today to the Catholicos of all Armenians Karekin II and the Catholicos of Cilicia Aram I, expressing solidarity with their demands for truth and justice. Below is the full text of both letters. For more details and continued coverage, visit our Facebook page.

A Turkish citizen holds the photograph of Armenian poet Daniel Varoujan, who was a victim of the Armenian Genocide. (Photo by Khatchig Mouradian)

His Holiness Aram I
Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia
Antelias, Lebanon

Your Holiness,

Today is the 24th of April, 2012, the 97th anniversary of the arrests of the Armenian intellectuals of Istanbul, which represents the beginning of the Armenian Genocide.

As a result of the process of genocide which began with the arrests in Istanbul on April 24, 1915, the Cilicia Catholicosate, which has not only been one of the spiritual centers of the historic Western Armenia for hundreds of years but which also represents its cultural and social identity, was forcibly displaced to Lebanon from the lands where it belonged. As defenders of human rights in Turkey, we are writing this letter to you to express our belief that it is in these lands that your Catholicosate belongs.

We are writing this letter to you in order to say that we bow in shame and in respect before the memory of the Ottoman Armenians who were massacred and dispossessed of all their riches, of all their richness of every kind, and effectively, even of the vestiges of their past. We are addressing our letter to you to declare that we remain the defenders of the usurped rights of the children and the grandchildren of the victims who survived massacre and were dispersed to all corners of the earth.

On Aug. 31, 2011, you sent a letter to the prime minister of the Republic of Turkey regarding the legislative changes concerning the restitution of some of the properties of non-Muslim foundations. You wrote, “The Armenian people will remain the rightful owners of the innumerable churches, hospitals, nursing homes, orphanages, cemeteries, and various religious and public properties confiscated by the Turkish state in the days of genocide in 1915.” You then added, “The Armenian people will remain the rightful owners of the houses, businesses, and properties of their ancestors who were victims of the genocide which was planned and perpetrated by the Ottoman-Turkish government.”

In your letter, you declared that the Armenian people will never abdicate their demands on Turkey for justice regarding the Armenian Genocide, and for the restoration of human rights. You wrote, “Dear Prime Minister, your declarations regarding justice and human rights will only be documented when you recognize the Armenian Genocide.”

We are writing this letter to address you and thus all the Armenians in the world, to state that your demands voice the requirements of the most basic human rights, and that they are also our demands.

On April 24, 2011, the same day that we were commemorating in Istanbul the 96th anniversary of the arrest of the Armenian intellectuals, Sevag Şahin Balıkçı was shot dead while on mandatory military duty in the Turkish Army in the city of Batman. Officials gave misleading information and manipulated witnesses in order to declare the death an accident. Further inspection and investigations have since pointed to premeditated murder.  The murder of Sevag Şahin Balıkçı is evidence that there has been no life security for Armenians since 1915, that the process of genocide is ongoing, and that the denialism of 97 years perpetuates genocide.

In the 97th year of the process of genocide, which began with the arrests in Istanbul on April 24, 1915, and which included the annihilation of the Armenians as well as the Assyrians and Greeks of Anatolia, we are writing this letter to directly address you and the children of the victims of the Armenian Genocide around the world, whom you represent. We hereby declare our belief that it is only after the recognition of the genocide and the restitution of and/or compensation for the confiscated property of Armenians that justice can be established.

Your humble servants,

Human Rights Association, Istanbul Branch
Committee Against  Racism and Discrimination
TURKEY

***

His All Holiness Karekin II
Catholicos of All Armenians
Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin

Your Holiness,

Today is the 24th of April, 2012, the 97th anniversary of the arrests of the Armenian intellectuals of Istanbul, which represents the beginning of the Armenian Genocide.

We are writing this letter to the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, which represents all the Armenians in the world, in order to say that we bow in shame and in respect before the memory of the Ottoman Armenians who were massacred and dispossessed of all their riches, of all their richness of every kind, and effectively, even of the vestiges of their past. We are addressing our letter to you to declare that we remain the defenders of the usurped rights of the children and the grandchildren of the victims who survived massacre and were dispersed to all corners of the earth.

The denial of the genocide by Turkey has lasted for 97 years, not only as a state policy but also as a socially pervasive view. We are writing this letter to you so as to declare that the denial of a crime against humanity, such as genocide, is a transgression of human rights, which itself leads to other transgressions and feeds enmity and hate.

You visited Istanbul in 2006 on the invitation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople. Your visit met with attacks against your person and your See by proponents of hate in Turkey, due especially to a reply you gave in the press conference. You said, “For our people, the genocide is not a matter of investigation; it is a factual event that took place, and must be recognized as such.” Your words were themselves subjected to an investigation under article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, whose legitimacy we contest in the most absolute terms.

We are writing you this letter to state that we share the views you voiced in the press conference in their entirety. As defenders of human rights, we deem the campaign against you by proponents of enmity and hate, as well as the investigation initiated by the Turkish judiciary, to be an attack against human rights.

On April 24, 2011, the same day that we were commemorating in Istanbul the 96th anniversary of the arrest of the Armenian intellectuals, Sevag Şahin Balıkçı was shot dead while on mandatory military duty in the city of Batman. Officials gave misleading information and manipulated witnesses in order to declare the death an accident. Further inspection and investigations have since pointed to premeditated murder.  The murder of Sevag Şahin Balıkçı is evidence that there has been no life security for Armenians since 1915, that the process of genocide is ongoing, and that the denialism of 97 years perpetuates genocide.

In the 97th year of the process of genocide, which began with the arrests in Istanbul on April 24, 1915, and which included the annihilation of the Armenians as well as the Assyrians and Greeks of Anatolia, we are writing this letter to directly address you and the children of the victims of the Armenian Genocide around the world, whom you represent. We hereby declare our belief that it is only after the recognition of the genocide and the restitution of and/or compensation for the confiscated property of Armenians that justice can be established.

Truly yours,

Human Rights Association, Istanbul Branch
Committee Against Racism and Discrimination
Turkey 

270 Comments on ‘Your demands are our demands’: Turkish Human Rights Group Sends Letters to Etchmiadzin, Antelias

  1. What a beautiful and compassionate move by are Turkish brothers and sisters. Well done.

  2. I am so moved to know that there are such brave and compassionate Turks who are willing to forget social, legal and political pressure in order to stand in solidarity with Armenians. I applaud the Human Rights Association, Istanbul Branch
    Committee Against Racism and Discrimination.

  3. Thank you.We have suffered more than enough.The mass graves in my occupied homeland need proper burial.The massacred need peace.

  4. Armen
    It is a beautiful and compassionate move, indeed, but Turks, by definition, cannot be our “brothers and sisters”, even the most beautiful ones. We can admire some of them as courageous human beings, but they’re not our “brothers and sisters”. Our brothers and sisters are are our co-ethnics–contemporary ones as well as those who were savagely slaughtered by Ottoman Turks.

  5. avatar Bedros H. Kojian // April 24, 2012 at 1:14 pm // Reply

    As a human being first, and an Armenian second, when I read this thoughtfully and sympathetically written letter, I appreciated the honesty and courage of the group. My spirits rose, and for a moment I wished our “century old nightmare would disappear, the truth would be acknowledged by the Turkish government, and justice would be served.” But knowing the Turkish successive governments and the Turkish extremists, I don’t think that this will happen soon. But by educating the Turks and working hard and persevering we may succeed. I congratulate and thank the Istanbul group for such an eloquent letter. Bkojian

  6. Wow, this is so powerful. I am pleasantly surprised by this. If more letters like this are sent from more Turkish organizations and officials, genocide full recognition will occur shortly! 2015!

  7. I pray for these people. My grandfather wanted freedom and equality in Turkey too. He was one of the first to die in the genocide. I pray for their safety.

  8. Salute to the Human Rights Association, Istanbul Branch
    Committee Against Racism and Discrimination
    By your courage, compassion and the love for truth you set an example not only for your own people, but also for all human beings on earth. May your brave action serve as a harbinger of change and enlightment and replace the culture of hate in Turkey.

  9. I myself, being the grandchild of one of the victims of the Armenian Genocide in 1915 , who constantly told us her sad story about how all her family members but for her and her brother, were taken away and massacred by the Ottoman Turks, her brother ending up in Argentina about who she knew years later, and her , ending up in Lebanon, am deeply impressed by the sympathetic words: “we bow in shame and in respect before the memory of the Armenians who were massacred”, and congratulate the committee for their courage and struggle against racism and discrimination.
    My grandmother’s soul will rest in peace now…..

  10. Hope is the motivator for action. We all find hope with the presence of young Armenians taking their place in generational succession. I find hope with the action of courageous Turkish citizens such as the Committee Against Racism and Discrimination of the Istanbul Branch of the Human Rights Association. We are thankful for their actions. They are the hope for Turkish society to free itself of the yoke of revisionism and denial. We must embrace their courage.

  11. Setting aside that the letter to His Holiness Karekin II should have been listed first…

    serko – I disagree. Given history, it is well known that many Turks are actually Armenians- they had no choice but to assimilate and through inter-marriage and such, they may in fact (or some of them may be) our brothers and sisters.

    I find we focus too much on governments. If we get to the point where the Turkish people of today are sympathizing with and joining our cause, why do I need a government stamp of approval? The real battle is to convince PEOPLE of what took place – as they will go forth and teach the future generations.

    This is a great article and I agree – hope and courage are key. Bravo to them. Getzehn.

  12. Show your support for their actions and send them a thank you email, and tell everyone you know to do the same. Strength in numbers:

    istanbul@ihd.org.tr

  13. Many of my friends have already written letters to the organization to express their gratitude.

    istanbul@ihd.org.tr for the contact e-mail.

  14. avatar Sako Ghazarian // April 25, 2012 at 8:14 am // Reply

    To tell the truth I got goosebumps, I’m so happy to see a letter like this coming out of Istanbul. Just want to say thank you. 97years we haven’t lost our hope, and this makes me to believe and hope one day….

  15. I congratulate IHD for taking a sometimes unpopular stand but necessary and principled one. I may not agree with all of their messege but I want them to be free to express it as they and others see fit. After all, Tehcir was a massive crime against humanity and beyond the suffering of countless, it also eradicated an ancient civilization from its homeland , a civilization that has been an integral and fundemental part of Turkish culture for over a millenium.

    On the other hand I would much rather see greater focus on current human rights abuses where it is actually possible to make a difference. I would have liked to see IHD making just as showy and powerful statements about what is going on in Iran, Syria, Irak, Palestine, Cechneya and even Karabag.

    If rememebrences and honoring victims and resolutions alone were a panacea, we would not have had any genocides or massive crimes against humanity in the last 50 years or so. Obviously that is not the case.

    • avatar john the turk // April 27, 2012 at 3:42 am //

      I disagree with you. Every country has the right to defend herself. It may be costly but you have to do it

  16. The bravest of te brave.

  17. Karanfil
    I don’t understand what you disagree with. If it was said that all of the people in the Istanbul Branch of the Human Rights Association were of Armenian descent, I’d agree they’re our brothers and sisters. But to imply that the Turkish nation on the whole or even the most compassionate fragment of it is our “brothers and sisters” is absurd. I admire these Turkish petitioners as decent and courageous human beings, but, by definition, they are not, nor they can be, our “brothers and sisters”. By the way, the history knows not only the cases of Armenians’ natural assimilation and inter-marriages with the Turks, but to the greater and awful degree the widespread cases of forced marriages, abductions to harems, mass rapes, forced impregnations, Devshirme forced child collections, forced religious conversion, and other savage methods at assimilation—all typical to the Turks. Don’t forget that!

  18. Just watched a video on youtube on our Turkish “brothers and sisters” mocking the Armenian grievers in front of the Turkish Embassy in Washington, DC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV9r5CFi7lc

  19. Serko
    Even if members of the Turkish Committee Against Racism and Discrimination are not assimilated Armenians or anyway associated with Armenians by blood, which Karanfil assumes they might be, they are our real brothers and sisters, more than, let’s say, the Armenian defunct funconaries who abuse their power and exploit our people causing them to emigrate from Armenia. The outcome of your judgment creterion is that the Armenian who prepared the list of his Armenian compatriots at the threshold of April 1915 and gave it to the Ottoman authorities to start their hunt of Armenian intellectuals could be considered our brother, because he was ‘by definition’ Armenian, but these Turkish noble citizens who risk their lives for our cause cannot be considered as such, because they are ‘by definition’ Turk.
    I hope you see the evident untenability of your stand.

  20. Arshag
    I’m afraid I don’t see the evident untenability of my stand. Call these Turkish human rights defenders what they really and truly are: the bravest of the brave, noble, compassionate, remorseful, courageous, you name it—and I’ll agree with you or anyone else wholeheartedly. But by “brothers and sisters” we generally mean the pool of either our own flesh and blood or our co-religionists. Now, can some individuals in this pool be traitors and thugs? You bet they can. I’ve known an Armenian who was labeled “you’re worse than a Turk” (meaning, of course, a murderer Ottoman not a modern-day Turk). Every family has a black sheep. Regardless, he or she is my brother, by blood. Just like, in the matters of faith, everyone who admits Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is my brother, by faith.

    P.S. “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” We will never know the circumstances in which an Armenian who prepared the list of his compatriots at the threshold of genocide for the Ottoman authorities was. We will never know what purpose the Turks might have lied to this Armenian. Knowing the Turkish slyness, it is safe to say that hardly they have told this Armenian to prepare the list so that all of his compatriots be savagely slaughtered afterwards.

  21. Dear brothers and sisters, please don’t blame to Turkish people, they dont know what happent at 1915. We have been learning. You will see more Turkish people every year on the the streets, with pictures and flowers in their hand, with pain in their souls.
    Hope to live together again,

  22. These people are assimilated armenians.. :)

    • Hamshen necati,you mean exactly like you right?

    • Vtigar,

      i know what you mean and i already explained twice that you were wrong thinking of what you have in your mind but as always censored by your people.

      Anyway, i will say just a sentence so that aW will not censor.

      I am a Turk from the area called “Hemşin” in Rize /Turkey and i did not see anyone there speaking your language.

      The only gift my Tengri gave me is my blood.

    • So you are not a Muslim? Never knew that gods donate blood.So you are not Hopa Hamshen then.What a pity.

    • Please listen to this masterpiece by Turks that we can associate with…
      http://vimeo.com/40639618

  23. Serko, I feel a warm brotherly and sisterly affinity to these Turks who stand with us and share in our demands. They are our brothers and sisters in spirit.

    And to your point: Turks have been shown through scientific research to have DNA very similar to Armenians (because of forced intermarriages and conversions, etc). To a large degree, we are brothers.

    • Boyajian,

      I too think it will be too generous to call those noble Turks brothers and sisters. Even though our DNA is similar, let’s not forget that it is a result of rape and forced marriages in most of the cases. Armenian women suffered horrendously in the hands of Turks throughout centuries. Contribution of Armenians to Turkish genetic pool severely compromised our genetic pool.

    • I wonder if Turks steal our songs because they think they are our ”brothers and sisters”?. What a shameless act for this young lady to steal the Armenian genocide song.

    • avatar Boyajian // April 26, 2012 at 1:24 am //

      Sella, you are right about how much our women suffered and I detest the thought of rape and forced conversions. But it is true that some of those who express hatred for us may be our own cousins, unbeknownst to either of us! What an awful mess the Turks have made in Asia Minor. I know how unappealing it is to come to terms with the idea of a ‘compromised gene pool’, but I can’t reject anyone simply on the basis of their ethnic identity. That makes me no better than those who murdered our ancestors. My eyes swell a bit for those humanitarian Turks who say “our demands are their demands” and their bravery inspires hope and the desire within me for rapprochement with them.

      Still, I agree with Gaytzag, that an offer to live together in Turkey is untenable. Armenians deserve compensation, reparation, restoration and sovereignty over their own territory—-and a full and accurate acknowledgment of the historical record. It is simply unjust that Turkey should continue to profit from the stolen assets and heritage of the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc. of Asia Minor. Their crime against humanity is too great to go unpunished.

    • Boyajia & Sella,since you are discussing the subject of our women…please read the following in yesterday’s TDZ written by Alin Ozinian:
      http://www.todayszaman.com/news-278607-genocide-women-and-pain-by-alin-ozinian*.html

    • Boyajian,

      “Still, I agree with Gaytzag, that an offer to live together in Turkey is untenable. Armenians deserve compensation, reparation, restoration and sovereignty over their own territory—-and a full and accurate acknowledgment of the historical record. It is simply unjust that Turkey should continue to profit from the stolen assets and heritage of the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc. of Asia Minor. Their crime against humanity is too great to go unpunished.”

      Do you suggest that we give West to Greeks and East to Armenians, Kurds, and Assyrians? Where will the Turks go then? Do you have a place in mind that would accommodate 40-50million people?

    • Thank you VTiger for the link. I appreciate your effort to connect dots and keep us informed.

    • avatar Boyajian // April 27, 2012 at 1:57 pm //

      What a great question, Tokado. Let’s open this up to the group and see what solutions we can generate.

    • tokado,why not scatter around the world (with no killings involved of course,no rapes,kidnappings of children,no destruction of your cultural heritage & etc…) for the next 100 years similar to us, experience & feel living uprooted?
      Imagine this scenario for few minutes & in case you have guts & patience for few hours…days may be?Years?A century?
      Then come back to us & ask this same question.

    • Hmm I feel sarcasm, but I don’t see why.

      Anyways, let’s find a relocation package if possible to Maldives or Caribbean :-P

    • When?We need to co–ordinate so that no killings happen.

    • avatar Boyajian // April 30, 2012 at 7:37 am //

      Tokado, yes VTiger is sarcastic, but he uses it as a way to make an important point about what often goes unappreciated by Turks who comment here. Did it also go ‘over your head ‘?

      Many Turks seem to think very little about the pain of having been uprooted and scattered and robbed of homeland, and consequently they feel neither compassion for Armenians nor responsibility to address the crime that was done by their forefathers.

  24. avatar gaytzag palandjian // April 25, 2012 at 9:39 pm // Reply

    Turks!!!
    I shall be very straightforward to you.Indeed we can forgive!!!!
    BUT never Forget!!!!!
    So understand our grief!!!
    We can when your whole people nation/State,asks for forgiveness officially FORGIVE.But don´t expect us to forget.
    Also GET THIS STRAIGHT TO.We don´t accept sugar coated offers such as ¨come we live together guila guila¨¨¨ nO AND NO!!!!
    wE CAN LIVE AS TWO SOVERIGN NATIONS SIDE BY SIDE,in peace,but not if you have not compensated ,restored to us what was OURS.
    WE DEMAND JUSTICE AND IT MUST BE SERVED COMPLETELY..
    nmot just by coming and kneeling at Our Monument in Yerefvan…
    Compensation ,reaprations and restitution!!!!
    Then we can live AS ABOVE….

    • Sireli Gaitzag,let God forgive the Turks/Turkey,as I am having great difficulty in forgiving them.

  25. Boyajian
    Feeling a warm brotherly and sisterly affinity to these Turks is different from identifying them as “brothers and sisters”. It might be said, given France’s record, that the French to the greater degree stand with us and share in our demands. But I haven’t seen anyone calling them “brothers and sisters”. Nor the Uruguayans who had the courage to be the first nation recognizing the genocide. All of them, including these courageous Turkish human rights defenders, are people of good will and admirable courage, but hardly our “brothers and sisters” per se.

    Re: DNA similarity. I cannot accept as brothers those who might have some genetic similarity knowing too well that this similarity has been achieved chiefly through the widespread cases of forced marriages, abductions to harems, mass rapes, impregnations, Devshirme collections, forced religious conversions, and other barbaric methods at Turkification. Knowing this, how can one simply state that “Turks have been shown through scientific research to have DNA very similar to Armenians”. Maybe, but at what costs to the Armenians, has it occurred to you?

    • avatar Boyajian // April 26, 2012 at 8:43 pm //

      Serko, of course I am aware that the shared DNA of Armenians and Turks came at a very high price for Armenians. And you make a good point about the French and the Uruguayans. Let’s not bicker among ourselves, but accept that the terms ‘brother and sister’ can have both figurative and literal meanings.

  26. Murat:

    First of all, why are you congratulating IHD on these pages? Why not write directly to them?

    If you think IHD’s stand is necessary, then you shouldn’t conclude that “remembrances and honoring victims and resolutions alone are a panacea [from genocides]”. It is often said that had Turks remembered and honored victims of the Armenian genocide by offering them an apology, hardly would Hitler mentioned “who after all remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?” Had the perpetrators, the Turks, remembered and repented, Hitler wouldn’t have used our genocide as a justification for mass extermination of the Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, and others. Thus, it is truly necessary that we remember and honor victims of genocides remorsefully to prevent similar calamities in the future. Hitler’s example speaks for itself.

    Re: “Tehcir was a massive crime against humanity and beyond the suffering of countless, it also eradicated an ancient civilization from its homeland, a civilization that has been an integral and fundamental part of Turkish culture for over a millennium.” Your confession is unacceptable. Not Tehcir but Ermeni Soykırımı—the Armenian Genocide–was a massive crime against humanity. Tehcir is only a concept of “population transfer”, forced relocation of a population from one region to another within a territory that the enforcing agent has the control. In the Armenian case it wasn’t merely a forced relocation to another region, it was relocation to graves, accompanied with mass murders, rapes, tortures, mutilations, burnings and burying alive, drowning, suffocations in the caves, and other forms of Ottoman Turkish barbarity. So if you now portray yourself as a repentant, please call spade a spade or remain silent.

    Further, crime against humanity in particular against what nation? Sufferings of what nation? Eradication of what ancient civilization? Homeland of what nation?

    Also, the Armenian civilization (if you meant it) has not been an “integral and fundamental part of Turkish culture for over a millennium”. The Armenian civilization has been stolen to be part of Turkish culture: architecture, music, cuisine, customs, etc. Nomadic Seljuk Turks had no such things when they invaded Asia Minor. Call things by their proper name or just remain silent.

  27. gaytzag,

    I can forgive them only AFTER they apologized and started compensations. If we forgive them before that, as Muslim Turks they won’t understand this purely Christian virtue of forgiveness and will most likely take it as a gesture of weakness. “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and tear you.” –-Jesus Christ, Matthew 7:6, Holy Bible

  28. Look who’s here… tokado:

    Not long ago, in another thread, “An Easter Message: A New Birth of the Armenian Spirit”, you accused Armenian posters as being racists looking for vengeance, whereas they simply expressed their justified anger over the genocidal extermination of their nation, the Turkish propensity to lessen and distort their crime, and the lack of justice for the victims. When you accused an Armenian poster that she is “trying to force [the Turks] to accept your opinions without listening to them”, I offered you to lay out your opinion on what you think had happened to the millions of indigenous Christian peoples of Asia Minor, most gruesomely, to the Armenians. As a cry-baby, you replied “I did but your moderator filtered it…” I suggested you to persist, doubting that my(?!) moderator could have filtered a comment containing no derogatory words in it. You never did. Now you popped up again in this thread. Do you care to lay out your opinion of the substance of the 1915 events so we listen to it or you’ll dodge the question again?

  29. Boyajian, I’m not trying to bicker. I’m just trying to say that calling non-Armenians or non-Christians, even if they’re the noblest people on Earth, “brothers and sisters”, is an overshoot, a hyperbole.

  30. Boyajian:

    A precaution. A Turk by the pen name ‘tokado’ loves asking questions, but beware: he never answers questions himself. Also, whenever an answer from an Armenian poster doesn’t sooth his denialist ears, he stigmatizes them as ‘racists’ and their observations as ‘generalizations’ and ‘hate’.

    Source of precaution: see tokado’s comments in “An Easter Message: A New Birth of the Armenian Spirit”.

    • I answer questions from anybody but you because of your attitude. You know that very well. And now you try to built a side against me. Typical….

    • avatar Boyajian // April 28, 2012 at 9:46 am //

      Thank you Berch, for the concern.
      I think Tokado’s question above is a good one. If Turkey gives back what it took from Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, Armenians, what happens to the 40 to 50 million Turks?

    • I should add, I think this question reflects Turks greatest fear. I want to hear what others think about this. I have already said that I believe Armenians deserve sovereignty on their territories and I don ‘t think Turkey should be allowed to continue to benefit from the spoils of genocide. But what would justice look like for all parties involved? How would the geography be reconfigured? How much would Turks retain? Should they be deported to Der Zor? Of course that would never happen, but maybe with global warming Greenland could hold some possibilities?

      Seriously, what would a just solution look like to others?

    • It is not really a fear because we all know that it is impossible. I think sovereignty on Western Armenia is a dream since the Turkish population is much greater in numbers than the entire Armenian population.

      I was asking the question because I was surprised to see that you think of independent Western Armenia. It’s quite unrealistic, and can only achieved by war, which I’m sure nobody to Turk or Armenian would want such a thing.

    • Why punish the Eskimos?

    • Tokado,

      Of course you are much greater in numbers after your forefathers successfully slaughtered Armenians/Christians in Western Armenia and elsewhere in Ottoman empire. Why do you think they slaughtered them to begin with? To steal their land and wealth and prevent anyone in the future claiming them back. So that their grandchildren will live in the stolen lands and houses peacefully. Was not it a nice try?

      Let’s see how long Turkish citizens are going to live in Armenian houses and pray in church-converted-mosques. Only time will tell whether Armenians can get some land back from Turks or not.

      You still not answer my question what happened to properties, houses, churches, schools, bank accounts of 1.5 million slaughtered and half million deported Armenians in Turkey? Is your country/Turkish citizens using them?

    • I second VTiger, lol comment of the day right there.

      But really, post-Sevres Ottoman Empire still had land in central Anatolia (Ankara and surrounding regions) for Turks, so the Eskimos should be fine.

    • Oh I thought I did. Yeah probably Turkish citizens or Turkey are using them. So? I fail to see your point.

    • The point is that murdering people and stealing their houses and wealth and living in that very same houses, and using those properties would be considered crime in most of the countries. No matter such crime was committed today or 100 years ago. But I believe Turkey has her own convenient “laws” when it comes to punishing massive theft, murder and looting committed by her predecessor, Ottoman Empire.
      One of the astonishing proof is article 301 and state financed programs to block The Armenian genocide recognition.

      I hope you see the point now.

    • I though I should explain it to you in a more simplified way. The point is that Turkish citizens/Turkey cannot use something that does not belong to them.

  31. As a Christian, I call all kinds of people from all parts of the world my brothers and sisters. If these people are moved by a love and truth in their hearts and compassion for our ancestors, then I can easily call them brothers and sisters in this sense as I would anybody else. Don’t forget, they are turning around to see things in a different way in order to do so.
    Our people were the first to embrace Christianity. It may not be important to others. It is important to me that it teaches us that God is love. To do such an act requires something of love and the love of truth. It is a step, but a tremendous one and I want to recognize this as I must.

  32. Janine,

    I think what you’re saying is a misconception of the New Testament. For you as a Christian, all kinds of people from all parts of the world cannot be your brothers and sisters by faith, because being Christian means (look up, if you will, Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16) ibeing followers of Jesus Christ because they believe in Christ and follow His example. These followers are our brothers and sisters. All other earnest, courageous, and compassionate people are what they are: earnest, courageous, and compassionate people, but not brothers and sisters in faith.

    “And when [Christ] had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians […].” –Acts 11:26, New Testament, Holy Bible

  33. May it be recalled, tokado, in case you typically and conveniently have “forgotten”, that you indicated but failed to offer your opinion to Sylva, not me in “An Easter Message: A New Birth of the Armenian Spirit”. Building sides against denialist, unrepentant, and unremorseful Turks like you is the least I can do for the memory of my relatives starved to death and burnt alive in the caves of Syrian desert Der Zor by your barbarian predecessors.

    • to the likes of Tokado:

      There is no need for our compatriots like Berch to “build sides”. That statement in and of itself is an insult to us Armenians: we are on our side and against Denialists – By Default; no need to build anything.

      Ever few months some new Denialist pops up @AW and we have to go back to ‘Educating Denialists 101′.

      Berch has been handling the new, improved Denialist ‘Tokado’ this semester, so there was no need for the rest of to get involved.

      Always remember Turk-oglar Tokados: we, Armenians, and righteous Turks & Turkish citizens are on the right side, and you Denialists are on the wrong side.

    • Berch: I did write my opinion. It’s not my problem if you don’t like it.

      Avery: Check the entire site, find a place where I deny anything. You cannot ask for justice if you accuse others with no proof.

  34. I agree with those who think that calling non-Armenian, non-Christian—yet honest and noble—people “brothers and sisters” is an overstatement. After all, let us not forget that these courageous Turkish activists recognize and offer apologies for the great crime their predecessors have committed. I can admire their bravery and appreciate their repentance and humanity, but in essence their move is not a “brotherly and sisterly” attitude so we can reciprocate. It is a recognition and apology for the crime committed by the nation they represent.

  35. {tokado April 28, 2012
    Avery: Check the entire site, find a place where I deny anything. You cannot ask for justice if you accuse others with no proof.}

    [tokado April 13, 2012
    My opinion is is a very simple attitude of “Let’s discuss”. For most of the Armenians, AG is a fact that cannot be discussed and everybody should accept without any doubts. For most of the Turks, the AG is a lie that cannot be discussed, and it should be refused immediately. That’s unfortunately a deadlock situation.
    If we come to the issue of “denialist Turk”. Your intent is very visible. You don’t say “denialist”, but you say “denialist Turk”. You have a prejudice about Turks (like most of people here), and you use it as an adjective to counter “sincere”. Even your question to the moderator assumes that a Turk should probably lying about its post getting filtered.
    I personally have never seen so much hate directed against my country and its people.]

    [tokado April 14, 2012
    Do you also have the same feelings for Aztecs, who sacrificed a million, for Romanians, who impailed thousands on people on sticks, or Romans who killed and slaved without mercy, or Americans who used nukes and poisoned generations. Every country has ugly moments in their history.]

    (Avery note: right, the Armenian Genocide was just an ugly moment)

    [tokado April 12, 2012
    “I would like to see your reaction to a nation who killed over 75% of your people and stole 90% of their ancestral lands,”
    Killing is of course wrong in any context. But the land was not stolen, is was conquered. And conquests are common in all history. Hittities did it, Urartus did it, and Turks too.]

    Above are a some samples, Tokado: true, you do not deny the AG explicitly (none that I can find in the quick search), but the coded language is right there.
    AG is not a fact, but debatable. Let’s not rush to judgement; let’s Discuss. Everybody did some evil deed: nothing special about the AG.
    Right, “every country has ugly moments in their history”. Oh yeah, everybody conquered somebody, everybody killed, so what’s the big deal about the Armenian Genocide ? How many times have we seen those exact phrases from the Denialists on these pages ?

    OK Tokado: put your cards on the table; let’s see it.
    Do you , ethnic Turk Tokado, accept the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide committed by Ottoman Turks, and CUP Turks, and Kemalist Turks – unequivocally and without qualifications or reservations: Yes or No ?

    Did your Turk ancestors commit a Genocide against indigenous Armenians (and Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks): YES or NO ?

    • Ok now you see that I didn’t deny anything.

      “(Avery note: right, the Armenian Genocide was just an ugly moment)”

      Those examples was in a different context. You can’t just quote without the context. It was answer about some torture thing done to Arabs by Turks. And indeed AG was an ugly moment. (note that you put the “just”)

      OK let me ask this: do you Avery, ethnic Armenian, accept the scientific fact of the existence of Higgs Boson? Yes or No?

      You’ll think that this is nonsense. Let me explain. This is not something that you can have an opinion. It is either a fact or not. There are rules for scientific experiments and once it’s proved it’s done. Will you be denialist if you say no? The same for the word “genocide”. It is a legal term that only a court rule can assign. It is not a matter of opinion. I don’t believe it appropriate to use the word genocide without a court decision.

      The bottom line, and I will only tell this once before I leave this site, is that; I understand that this issue is an emotional issue for you. But in my opinion, it is not for Turks. The current generation of Turks didn’t cause this tragedy, neither their parents nor their grand parents. Do you feel guilty of the massacres committed by the Christian Crusaders? Of course not. That was long past. So we don’t feel guilty. Of course we are sorry for it, we feel sad for it. It is a tragedy that caused many lives. But it is no different that any massacres in other places in the world.

      So your answers and responses to comments are purely emotional, which I cannot completely understand. I’m answering to an Arabian torture device by saying every country has a dark past. Yet you immediately interpret that I’m talking about AG. The same for the the matter of “opinion”. I tell that you should be more open minded and try to convince turkish community by discussing it. Yet you again say I am a denialist because I don’t curse Turkey or Turks.

      Yes, I do deny the indiscussibility of your facts. How can something can be a fact if you can’t discuss it? Especially historical events, which are mainly based on subjective writings, and subjective stories. This is not math. Not everything is black or white. In history there are many shades of gray.

    • tokado April 12, 2012
      “I would like to see your reaction to a nation who killed over 75% of your people and stole 90% of their ancestral lands,”
      Killing is of course wrong in any context. But the land was not stolen, is was conquered. And conquests are common in all history. Hittities did it, Urartus did it, and Turks too.]
      tokado,regarding “But the land was not stolen, is was conquered”…
      The massacred Armenians even though they were conquered,de facto had become Ottoman citizens for 500 years,traveled under Ottoman documentation,who lived on their lands & paid their taxes to the conqueror!
      Then what comes is ethnic cleansing – Genocide.
      Your argument is poor with no leg to stand on.

    • VTiger, I remember having misinterpreted thethatquestion. I thought we were talking about the Ottoman expansion at the early stayes of the empire. But it was too late to remove my comment or change it.

      Of course Armenians were citizens and the Ottoman state did an atrocity towards its own citizens. I personally find it a bigger crime than a genocide after a conquest (like american indians, or romans, etc…).

  36. tokado: No you didn’t. Allow me to refresh your Turkish memory.

    This was my question:
    “What in your opinion, happened to the millions of indigenous Christians of Asia Minor? In particular, where are the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians of Van, Erzrum, Kharberd (Mamuretülaziz), Bitlis, Digranakerd (Diyarbekir), and Sebastia (Sivas)? Where are the Armenians of Constantinople, Adana, Zeitoun, Smyrna, Kars, and Ardahan?”

    And this was your “answer”, so to speak:
    “My opinion is a very simple attitude of “let’s discuss”. For most of the Armenians, AG is a fact that cannot be discussed and everybody should accept without any doubts. For most of the Turks, AG is a lie that cannot be discussed, and it should be refused immediately. That’s unfortunately a deadlock situation.”

    If you, and all who post in this thread, see any remote resemblance of an opinion expressed with regards to my specific question, call me a liar. Otherwise, you may well qualify for one…

    • “What in your opinion, happened to the millions of indigenous Christians of Asia Minor? In particular, where are the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians of Van, Erzrum, Kharberd (Mamuretülaziz), Bitlis, Digranakerd (Diyarbekir), and Sebastia (Sivas)? Where are the Armenians of Constantinople, Adana, Zeitoun, Smyrna, Kars, and Ardahan?”

      They died.

      “And this was your “answer”, so to speak:”

      That was my answer to someone. Not to you. Nor to your question.

      “If you, and all who post in this thread, see any remote resemblance of an opinion expressed with regards to my specific question, call me a liar. Otherwise, you may well qualify for one…”

      Thank you. You are very polite person. Your words are dripping politeness all the time.

  37. As an acknowledger Turkish citizen of Armenian Genocide, who actively support truth about Armenian Genocide in every way, I just felt uneasy when finished to read comments on here.

    Talking about genes, blood and debate on who are sisters/brothers shit, in a simple way, is just metadology of racism. What is your/our aim? Giving peace to who fell at 1915 and trying to make Turks more aware of this subject or acting like a government which only care about land and money? (Here, I agree with tokado. Building the Mec Eġeṙn’s value proposition on land and money is just make people denying it at first step.)

    In Turkey, there are people who really care about OUR pain, tries spread the word in terms of humanitarian basis with highlighting seizure of Armenian properties. But when you come up with compensation and re-drawing borders, BAM! Our conversation goes to trash.

    Maybe we, who defends Armenian Genocide, should really re-think about our communication behaviour, metadology and positioning of arguments. Because all I read here -except few, sorry- is not too different from Turkish nationalist jargon.

    Sincerely,
    A human who don’t give a single **** about nationality, studies advertisement in Izmir/Turkey, copy writer and atheist.

    • Tmid,

      Armenian genocide recognition without compensation does not mean much to most of Armenians. It is very offensive when Turks say that.

      Can you imagine if the ”criminal’ would declare that knowing that the court is going to put her in jail or force to pay whatever he/she stole makes his/her more reluctant to admit his/her crime? Do you think it is moral?

      So, you think Armenians should agree that they have no ”demands” from Turkey. And hopefully your state will recognize the Armenian genocide? And then your state and your citizens should continue using Armenian properties, lands and show Armenian cultural treasures to tourists and make money or barbarically destroy them as your state have doing for almost 100 years?

      Now why I am comparing Turkey with a criminal, because, until Turkey admits that her predecessor Ottoman empire committed genocide against Christians and Turkey illegally confiscated their wealth and properties and is illegally using them to this very day, Turkey is and will remain a criminal state to me.

    • “But when you come up with compensation and re-drawing borders, BAM! Our conversation goes to trash.”
      How nice of you.Put yourself in our shoes & imagine…simple example…somebody comes & kills your family,takes over your house,farm,etc… & when you want to regain what’s yours tells you BAM.
      Simply you have to understand that it is our right & we will pursue it with all means.On the contrary since you share our pain you should share the whole pain.
      Since you write in English I presume that you are educated.Please refrain from using ‘f’ & ‘s’ words.We can communicate beautifully without being vulgar.

    • Yes, that makes perfect sense: a simple apology should suffice.
      Why ask for more ? who does that these days ?

      And if someone accidentally ran a red light in Izmir, smashed into your car, and you lost your legs – we are sure you would be satisfied with a simple apology for the fact that your life has changed forever, you may no longer be able to work and support yourself. You would not demand compensation: Riiight.

      And if a bunch of criminals broke into your house, murdered most members of your family, stole all the wealth and property you had accumulated after years of hard work – a simple “sorry” from them should be more than enough. They can keep the house, your belongings, maybe “marry” one of the little sisters they did not murder. All you are asking for is simple apology: Yes ?

    • When Germany was ordered to pay reparation to Israel, a huge political debate in Israel broke out. Some MP believed to accept reparation would mean they forgive the Germans, and in exchange for money for the 6 million murdered Jews, Israel and Germany would be “even.” Something they claimed the Jewish people could and never should truly do. On these pages, I see debates about HOW MUCH money Armenians should get, and HOW MUCH land they should get. I don’t think any of them are bad people simply out to see their country get richer and bigger with disregard to the 1.5 million murdered, but it sends that message to those in Turkey who are more than willing to deny. The idea that these people just want a quick buck.

      “Maybe we, who defends Armenian Genocide, should really re-think about our communication behaviour, metadology and positioning of arguments”

      Maybe, land, property, and monetary compensation need to be separate from Genocide recognition. Make the message clear, to denialists- it’s already clear, that what you really want is justice. Appeal to their humanity- yes Armenians we have that. Then, if and eventually when Turkey recognizes, THEN take your claims and demands to court- where you will have a much better chance of winning (like an unbeatable case).

      But Tmid, you will they don’t take too kindly to suggestions by us Turks.

    • “And if someone accidentally ran a red light in Izmir, smashed into your car, and you lost your legs – we are sure you would be satisfied with a simple apology for the fact that your life has changed forever, you may no longer be able to work and support yourself. You would not demand compensation: Riiight.”

      I am always puzzled with this analogy. I think the correct one should be:

      And if someone accidentally ran a red light in Izmir 100 years ago, smashed into your great grand-father’s car, and he lost his legs…

      In that case the claim for compensation doesn’t fit very well since the crime would be expired…

    • avatar Sylva-MD- Poetry // May 2, 2012 at 7:05 am //

      Can I ask everyone on this site …
      How can you enjoy something doesn’t belong to you…
      They don’t fill guilt using Armenian homes …furnitures …Gold…Diamonds…!!!
      My friend in USA of Norwegian origin…She has a gold cross neckless on her chest…
      I said this is typical Armenian cross made in Istanbul…
      Her mother bought from a lady …From East Europe …
      She doesn’t know her religion…But she said she was not Christian
      I want to know how that Armenian cross reached Michigan…
      No Armenian will sell the cross even reached starvation…!

      Sylva

  38. To a “new” Turk using the pen name Timid:

    Exactly why talking about brothers and sisters by blood or by faith (couldn’t find any word on genes here, please kindly pinpoint unless you were smoking some really strong stuff) is sh** and is metadology (methodology, perhaps?) of racism? If this is racism, than Turkish support for their blood- and faith cousins AzerBEYjanis is what? If a simple debate on who can and who cannot be considered a brother or sister is racism, then near-total physical extermination of a particular nation based on which the term genocide (Greek for ‘killing of a race’) was invented, is what?

  39. Justice for Armenians—as victims of genocide—includes an apology, reparations, and land restitution. As with any crime, repentance and punishment go hand in hand. A murderer cannot just say “Oops, I’m sorry” and get away with the crime. He would have to serve time in prison and pay a fine. Depending on the case, his property may be confiscated as well.

    There is a segment in the Armenian Diasporas worldwide who would accept reparations and restitution without an apology, considering reparations and restitution as an apology. I, for one, am one of them. But hardly can one find an Armenian who’d accept an apology without reparations and restitution. After all, these was the habitat of our ancestors for millennia, long before the arrival of the Turks. They tilled the soil, kept farms, pastures, and orchards, looked after the cattle, built houses, community centers, religious and educational institutions, ran businesses, acquired wealth by means of hard work and despite heavy Turkish taxes, saved money in bank accounts, had insurance indemnities, created thousands of cultural and artistic edifices, maintained graveyards, served in the Turkish army and risked their lives in wars only to know that their families were being slaughtered by Turks at the same time. Finally, they gave the most precious thing–their innocent lives—during the genocide. The escapees were dispersed throughout the world struggling to maintain their Armenian identity in foreign environments. Almost all of their civilizational traces in the Armenian vilayets and Armenian-populated cities eradicated.

    How can we accept just an apology for such a gargantuan loss? An apology will somehow soften our rightfully angry stand and pave the way for having good-neighborly relations with the Turks, but it cannot substitute the massive loss of life and ancient homeland.

  40. “When Germany was ordered to pay reparation to Israel […]”.

    RVDV, to state that Germany was only compelled to pay reparations without admitting the guilt, is an oversimplification. Of course, the Jewish diasporas worldwide and the international pressure at Nuremberg played a significant role, but to disregard the Germans’ ability to repent is unfair. Mind you, Germany admitted the crime 40 years after the Holocaust and the Nuremberg trials, in the late 1970s, when it was one of the richest and strongest nations in the world.

    For me, a civilized nation is the one that has the ability to repent. This is also a Christian virtue: Jesus would forgive a wicked thief or a prostitute for their sins before he forgave a firm believer, because He understood that it was incomparably harder for a thief or a prostitute to confess and repent.

    • So in the 70s Germany readmitted genocide, this time without the Allies breathing down their neck? Didn’t know that, thanks for pointing that out. I have said it before, we Turks could learn a thing or two from the Germans.

      You regard the ability to repent as a mark of civility. To me, the ability to repent is a part of what separates us humans from animals. It should be, note the should, should be a mark of humanity. To be honest, I’m more ashamed of those who have covered up the genocide for almost a 100 years, then those who actually committed it. I mean the Ottoman Empire was falling apart, there was a scramble to make a national identity for Turks to keep things together, and nothing pulls people together better than a common enemy. And alas there was a Christian minority that could be made into the scapegoat. And it didn’t hurt that they were among the wealthier of Ottoman citizens. A little ethnic and religious propaganda for the uneducated masses, and you have a recipe for disaster….. I can roughly explain WHY my ancestors committed genocide, but there’s no good answer to why we deny it… What can I say? Oh we umm… well we would like to keep what we took, territory, money, etc.. Or… well… we believe that since we went through the effort to kill them, we should keep what we took… With both “justifications” any neutral person would come to a conclusion that essentially my people are self-righteous assholes. And given the circumstances, I find it hard to argue against that conclusion.

  41. A great documentary on Armenian genocide by Ottoman Turks made by Germans. Please, watch if you not watch it before.

  42. I just deleted nearly an essay sized comment. So, I will try to be simple as possible.

    Your arguments(!) are insulting. You want a change? Change yourself. Nothing gives you to right of insulting or educating people. Methadology or metadology, crime in Izmir. Really? I mean, do I look like stupid or you are acting like that? Please.

    I just gave you an example from my experiences. I’m the one who told people there must be compensation. It would have easy to understand that if you read was my first comment without prejudicies.

    “…but it sends that message to those in Turkey who are more than willing to deny. The idea that these people just want a quick buck.

    Maybe, land, property, and monetary compensation need to be separate from Genocide recognition. Make the message clear, to denialists- it’s already clear, that what you really want is justice. Appeal to their humanity- yes Armenians we have that. Then, if and eventually when Turkey recognizes, THEN take your claims and demands to court- where you will have a much better chance of winning.”

    Thanks. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT.

    “But Tmid, you will they don’t take too kindly to suggestions by us Turks.”

    I already understand. Even I feel bit sorry to being attacked by Armenian brothers/sisters. But this make me to think about “triggering factors” which is in this case Mec Eġeṙn.

    Finally, let me ask you something. What kind of discrimination is this? What kind of anger and arrogance is this? I cannot defence Mec Eġeṙn because I’m so-called Turk? I hope there is a huge gap between who always says “turk, turk, turk” and who do not. Believe me it’s so irritating because I’m anarcocomunist. But that behaviour labels some of you in my mind as a racist with a hate speech. This behaviour does no good to our cause.

    p.s: If I saw and define a thing as a shit, it makes that is a shit. Not makes me vulgar.

    • “Thanks. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT.”

      I know that was what you meant. So did they. But then they couldn’t enjoy the pleasure of sticking it to you. I swear, it’s like recreation to bash Turks here. Most deserve it, but once it becomes a habit….

    • I agree with what you say. The big problem is the compensation issue, more precisely “giving lands”. I believe the Turkish economy is strong enough to provide the necessary compensation (15-20 billion $?). But understandably Turkey and most of its people have an automatic defense mechanism for everything that questions the national sovereignty. And since one of the compensation claims is about returning the lands to its owners it causes a problem. Also I believe it is often perceived as returning the lands to “Armenia” rather than Armenians.

      I’m personally be happy to see my tax money going to the victims as a compensation rather than seeing it disappear in the pockets of our corrupted government.

    • Tmid, I read your comment few times & I understand some of your points very well & some not at all.
      We are all here to exchange, discuss our different views as individual Armenians & Turks, which is beneficial compared to years back when there was no communication between us. Some comments by Armenians & Turks are hurtful, insulting, discriminating, arrogant & so on but at least we are communicating & letting know each other our views, opinions & experiences. Each side has its own story to tell & explain.
      1.“…but it sends that message to those in Turkey who are more than willing to deny. The idea that these people just want a quick buck.”
      Quick buck? Why quick buck? Are we asking for anything that was theirs/yours/Turkey’s or they/Turks/Turkey acquired what IS OURS by Genocide? Did we lose our 4000 years homeland & what we had built for thousands of years? Who acquired/confiscated & took over what we had? Did they pay for it? Did they work for it? Who’s getting the benefit of our belongings?
      We read & hear it a lot that the Armenians are the ‘Jews’ of Caucasus & the Armenian Highlands aka nowadays Anatolia. The characterisation of the ‘Jew’ here can be a) industrious or b) the shrewd who blackmails, cheats …its meaning taken from Shakespeare’s ‘Merchant of Venice’….
      Of course the characterization (b) is an insult & the used synonym ‘Jew’ is an insult for both the Jews & the Armenians as well.
      The whole world characterizes us the Armenians as bright, intelligent, shrewd, successful & so on…I personally do not accept such easy & cheap descriptions. We do not differ from any other race or humans. We do not have different special genes which are smarter than others. The simplest explanation why Armenians seem more successful is because of their circumstances of being occupied over centuries, which has led us to be hard working, to try & be the best in our fields, concentrate on education, etc…
      Today in Turkey ‘Ermeni’ is considered as an insult & a Turk that has Armenian blood is considered a much below par than a Turk who does not even know his exact bloodline. The worst part is that those who have traces of Armenian blood in them are the worst denialists & Armenian haters. How do these people sleep at night? From being millet-i sadika or a faithful nation we have become the worst insult. As if it was us the Armenians who have committed a Genocide against the Turks & it was the Turks who have lost their homeland. I am writing the above because I know there are denialists reading this comment & whether they like it or not they will automatically think & reflect about the discussed points, which I consider it important.

      2.“Maybe, land, property, and monetary compensation need to be separate from Genocide recognition. Make the message clear, to denialists- it’s already clear, that what you really want is justice. Appeal to their humanity- yes Armenians we have that.
      May be the above suggestion is right. But almost 100 years have passed & Turkey continues on denying. Yes we want justice & apology before anything else so that the souls of our massacred can rest. The massacred speak through us & we can never rest until we satisfy their demand of justice. Read what president Gul has said on the 27th of April 2012: “After the Republic was established, we avoided reopening old wounds so future generations would not inherit these pains. Unfortunately, the Armenian Diaspora has started to use this tragic event as a tool for preserving their identity and enhancing the feeling of solidarity between themselves since the 1960s.” How can we appeal to the Turkish humanity when its president says a big lie in front of the whole world?
      A president is the reflecting image of his country… Should I continue?

      3. “Then, if and eventually when Turkey recognizes, THEN take your claims and demands to court- where you will have a much better chance of winning.”
      So we all agree here that Turkey does not recognize the Genocide because of our demands, the quick buck?

      Please continue on expressing your opinions & ideas.

  43. ” I just deleted nearly an essay sized comment.”

    Such a big loss for all readers @AW, particularly us Armenians.

    Our world is poorer for having been deprived of your beautiful Turkish prose; lucid, well-formed logical arguments; precisely and seamlessly flowing sequiturs; staying refreshingly well above gutter language; and much, much more.

    Well, maybe you can grace us with your pearls of wisdom on another occasion.
    I believe it is not too forward for me to state – on behalf of my Armenian compatriots – that we will always extend a welcome to you, and give you a warm reception.

  44. RVDV,

    I appreciate your thoughts. They delightfully differ from and stand incomparably superior as compared with the moronic mumblings of other Turkish posters here. A couple of things, though. In the late 1970s Germans did not readmit the Holocaust; they actually admitted it. Allies, of course, were non-existent at the time to breathe down their neck. The Nuremberg trials and the Jewish diasporan pressure have. But to say that Germans admitted the guilt only because they were pressured is untrue. Many things separate us humans from animals, but I’m convinced that repentance is a mark of civility and high-mindedness, not just a mark of humanity, understood here as humankind (you had this in mind, too?). Human development proceeds in a lopsided, disproportional manner given a multitude of reasons. Germanic Goths were humans too, but to expect repentance from these barbarians was like to expect a rabbit to smoke cigars.

    I’d like to pose at this observation: “The Ottoman Empire was falling apart, there was a scramble to make a national identity for Turks to keep things together, and nothing pulls people together better than a common enemy. And, alas, there was a Christian minority that could be made into the scapegoat. And it didn’t hurt that they were among the wealthier of Ottoman citizens. A little ethnic and religious propaganda for the uneducated masses, and you have a recipe for disaster.”

    I beg to differ. Armenians were not “a common enemy” for the Turks. The Allied Powers were. Did Armenians long for the Russians to come and liberate them from the Turkish colonial yoke? Many did and a couple of revolutionary groups did advanced the cause having witnessed the deaths of their people during the Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896. But Armenians, never formed—nor were they able to form–into a fifth column, staging massive revolts and insurgencies against the Turks. On the contrary, as ironical as it may be, Armenians supported the CUP back in 1908 in the hope that reforms in the Armenian vilayets be finally implemented. Armenians also fought bravely in the Ottoman fronts on the Turks’ side. Some deserted, yes, but you have to keep in mind that these deserters had already seen mass murders of their co-ethnics by Abdulhamid in 1894-96 and by the Ittihadists in 1909 (Adana).

    You say there was “a scramble to make a national identity for Turks” in the waning years of the Ottoman empire. I don’t buy that. If there was a scramble in 1915 that led to mass murder of the Armenians, then explain the Hamidian and Adana massacres that happened 21 and 6 years before, respectively.

    It is also false to say that Armenians “were among the wealthier of Ottoman citizens”. Many Constantinople and other urban Armenians, perhaps, but the prevailing majority of Ottoman Armenians—those living in the rural areas—were in miserable shape.

    I also disagree that “a little ethnic and religious propaganda for the uneducated masses may be a recipe for disaster”. Not all uneducated masses are able to commit a crime of such a savagery and scale as Ottoman Turks even if they’re fed ethnic and religious propaganda. Here you skip the most important point, i.e. ethnic and religious propaganda was just a tool for a state-sponsored, premeditated campaign at physical extermination of the Armenians. Ethnic and religious propaganda can lead to occasional inter-ethnic, inter-religious, and inter-communal skirmishes, but for a wholesale deliberate annihilation of a people you need a state policy. And this is exactly what had happened.

    Although I despise this denialist scholar, I often use his conclusion for the recipe of the Armenian disaster. Certainly, the determinant factor for the genocidal extermination of the Armenians was not a WWI scramble to make a national identity for Turks, nor was it a myth of Armenians as a common enemy, nor was it a strive to make the Christian minority into the scapegoat, nor was it the jealousy for the wealth and industriousness that Armenians had, nor was it the uneducated masses that started bashing heads just because they fell for a little ethnic and religious propaganda. As Bernard Lewis puts it, “For the Turks, the Armenian [national] movement was the deadliest of all threats [of course, as notorious denier Lewis identifies it as ‘threat’, whereas in reality there was no such a thing -- paul]. From the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very heart of the […] homeland—and to renounce these lands would have meant not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state.” Add to this a wholesale theft of lands, pastures, houses, orchards, structures, personal properties, bank accounts, insurance indemnities, cultural achievements, etc. and you have the true motivation for for the annihilation of the Armenians.

  45. Tmid and Tokado, why do you stress yourselves over the anger you encounter here? Isn’t it understandable after so many years of denial and distortion of the facts of the Armenian Genocide, that Armenians might be defensive and untrusting of Turks? (You see, Tmid, it isn’t the impact of the ‘Mec Egern’ alone, but the Turkish response to it, that is problematic). Didn’t you come to this site to engage in conversation with us? Don’t you want to develop a deeper understanding? Try to hear the anger without defensiveness and don’t get side-tracked by it. It is a natural outgrowth of your society’s callousness toward Armenian pain. I respectfully suggest that you try to engage it compassionately.

    On the other hand, help me to better understand Turkish defensiveness and resistance to respond to us as fellow human beings who have suffered a tremendous loss at the hands of your ancestors.

    Turkey must not continue to benefit from the spoils of genocide. Compensation from your nation to my nation (and the other victim groups) must occur before our peoples can put this great crime behind us. I do not desire the destruction of Turkey, or the exile of Turks, but the status quo is counter to rapprochement. I am sure you can see this. The question is: Can Turks move past their exaggerated sense of national pride enough to admit guilt and make amends? If not, Armenians will continue to find ways to pressure your nation to do so, in order to achieve justice for ourselves and mankind in general.

    • avatar tokado // May 1, 2012 at 9:26 pm //

      ” The question is: Can Turks move past their exaggerated sense of national pride enough to admit guilt and make amends? If not, Armenians will continue to find ways to pressure your nation to do so, in order to achieve justice for ourselves and mankind in general.”

      I believe sooner or later it will happen. Now we are in an information age, it’s fairly easy to reach to information via internet. Before people’s only source were the teachings in the school, which was (and still is) highly subjective and nationalist; and TV. I mean 10 years ago you wouldn’t ever hear about these things, now people protest about it.

      Not in 2-3 years, but maybe in 10 years… (al so depends if the whole country avoid to become an islamic republic by then :-/ )

  46. avatar gaytzag palandjian // May 1, 2012 at 2:42 pm // Reply

    Dear Compatriots,
    I do not wish to comment pon any of those posts above.They have all -unfotunately-diverted from other main issues we have AT PRESENT with Azerbaijan *well supported by great Turkey, shooting hundreds of bullets of all sizes-short of cannon shelling-trying to exasperate NK *Nagornyi karabah( forces and Armenia.So think of that 2 soldiers on our side killed one badly wounded.this has been going on for since they begged for peace…that is it was Aliev BABA, not son Aliev son.Latter still with his war rhetoric and pertty SOON AT UN. AS SECURITY MEMBER OF THAT AUGUST BODY…
    this is what we Armenians aare up against.While we are at it…they go on with their dreams of brining us to knees AGAIN! so armenian WAKE UP!!!

  47. {““What in your opinion, happened to the millions of indigenous Christians of Asia Minor? In particular, where are the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians of Van, Erzrum, Kharberd (Mamuretülaziz), Bitlis, Digranakerd (Diyarbekir), and Sebastia (Sivas)? Where are the Armenians of Constantinople, Adana, Zeitoun, Smyrna, Kars, and Ardahan?”} asks Berch.

    {“They died”} answers Denialist Turk Tokado. (tokado April 30, 2012)

    No, Denialist guest: they did not just die of old age; they were murdered, exterminated in an organized, pre-planned manner. That sentence, and your failure to unequivocally state where you stand on the AG makes you a Denialist.

    {“ I am always puzzled with this analogy. I think the correct one should be: And if someone accidentally ran a red light in Izmir 100 years ago, smashed into your great grand-father’s car, and he lost his legs… In that case the claim for compensation doesn’t fit very well since the crime would be expired…”} writes Tokado (tokado April 30, 2012)

    Sorry, pal. If you had a basic understanding of logic and law, you would not be puzzled: there indeed would be a statute of limitations on an accidental injury.
    There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of murder.
    There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of Genocide.

    • “No, Denialist guest: they did not just die of old age; they were murdered, exterminated in an organized, pre-planned manner.”

      I see. So they did not die….

      “That sentence, and your failure to unequivocally state where you stand on the AG makes you a Denialist.”

      With all due respect I don’t care about what you think…

      “If you had a basic understanding of logic and law, you would not be puzzled”

      I have an understanding of logic. Your’s hoverer does not follow any n-th order one.

      “There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of murder.”

      In Turkey, there is.

      “There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of Genocide.”

      In int. law there is not

    • “There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of murder.”

      “In Turkey, there is.”

      That may have been the WORST comeback in the history of humanity. Like what does that even mean? In MY country people get away with murder! HAH! Take that!… Whoa buddy, you sure told Avery. He has NO chance whatsoever of winning this one. Come on dude, at least TRY. People like me spend time reading it, have some respect for the reader by TRYING a little.

    • avatar tokado // May 2, 2012 at 2:33 am //

      In Turkish law unfortunately there is Statute of Limitations for the crime of murder. I’m not saying that it is right, but it is a fact.

      I’m tired of getting insulted by these two guys, who obviously spend effort to twist my words and fit them into different context.

      In the murder of Izmir the statute of Limitation would apply, so the analogy sounds weird. That’s my point.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 2, 2012 at 8:26 am //

      Tokado, you must have been very tired when you wrote that last comment. Are you really trying to tell the descendants of murdered Armenians that Turks need feel no guilt for something that happened 100 years ago? Something that your nation has denied for 100 years? An ‘ugly moment’ that grows uglier every day because of the callousness of your government and the majority of your people who invent new ways to avoid justice on a daily basis?

      Actually, you have simply revealed the persona that most Armenians assume most Turks possess anyway.

      Not really surprised. Just noting once again that ‘dialogue’ is one of the subtlest forms of denial. It is the pseudo-intellectual way of saying “We wish you would shut-up already. We don’t care what happened 100 years ago. In fact—-We won. You lost. Accept it already.”

    • avatar tokado // May 2, 2012 at 2:23 pm //

      and also you want to punish the grand-grand son of the murderer, which has nothing to do with the crime. Again a flaw in the analogy.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 2, 2012 at 4:39 pm //

      Tokado, that is a completely ridiculous criticism. Armenians are not interested in punishing individual great-grandson of genocide perpetrators. Our goal is for a nation to nation reparation for the crime committed by your ancestors. The ‘great-grandfathers that committed these crimes, largely acted as agents of the state. Your nation dealt a near fatal blow against my people who were Ottoman citizens, a genocidal crime which has no statute of limitations. A mere admission of guilt is insufficient to restore what was stolen from us. It is the obligation of the state to address this crime and to help insure the long term viability of the Armenian nation—since that was the greatest injury inflicted upon us—the near annihilation of a 3-4 thousand year old culture.

      I thought you acknowledged the crime. Do you not think that such a crime against humanity requires a restorative response?

    • avatar tokado // May 5, 2012 at 5:19 pm //

      “I thought you acknowledged the crime. Do you not think that such a crime against humanity requires a restorative response?”

      I do, I do. I just wonder how the restorative response could be besides just paying. But I guess that will be the lawyers and politicians between two people to decide.

      When I thing of restorations I always have the picture of a Turkish person living on a land for 3 generations, and suddenly the land is taken from him/her to be given to someone else. It doesn’t feel fair. Of course taking the land from its previous owner was not fair neither. I may be wrong on this picture, it has a very basic understanding of restitution.

  48. Denialist Turk tokado: you’ve shown your true face and you’ll be dealt with accordingly on these pages as often as you pop up. Make no mistake…

    “What in your opinion, happened to the millions of indigenous Christians of Asia Minor? In particular, where are the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians […]? –“They died”, cynically answers the petty denialist. From Oxford English Dictionaries: ‘to die’, verb, (of person, animal, or plant): stop living. According to the mentality of this unremorseful descendent of Ottoman mass murderers, a multitude of people have voluntarily decided to stop living precisely in 1915. Over 2 million people have reached a ripe age and communally “died”. Even the unborn slit off pregnant Armenian women’s wombs by Ottoman Turkish barbarians have decided to stop living.

    “That was my answer to someone. Not to you. Nor to your question”, –further says the Turkish denialist. Even to someone else it wasn’t an answer, because you accused that someone (Sylva) of “trying to force [the Turks] to accept your opinions without listening to them”. I volunteered to listen to your opinion as to what happened to Western Armenians, but you you never did… until now, here it is: “the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians… died”. Simple, unashamed, and primitive à la denialist Turk.

    “I see. So they did not die…”, –further cynically bloviates the denialist due to either inherent lack of remorsefulness or limitations of brainpan abilities to understand that to die (stop living) naturally and to be murdered (from Oxford English Dictionaries: ‘murdered’, noun: unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another) are completely different notions.

    “In international law there is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of Genocide”, –further hallucinates the denialist. But, guess what, the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide declares genocide a crime under international law. It condemns genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war. The prescribed punishment is not subject to the limitations of time and place.

  49. {“I’m tired of getting insulted by these two guys, who obviously spend effort to twist my words and fit them into different context.”} complains Denialist Turk-oglu Tokado-Bey.

    I presume by “these two” it is meant myself, thy humble servant, and my compatriot, honorable Berch.

    Some items for you to consider, Tokado-Bey:

    1. Nobody invited you to come and comment @AW: you did and do on your own volition. As we all are.
    2. You are getting tired ?: easy solution – do not comment @AW.
    3. When you Deny the Armenian Genocide on the pages of ArmenianWeekly, you are ipso facto insulting me, an Armenian. My late Grandmother witnessed Armenians being shot by Turkish troops: they would press the barrel of a rifle under the chin of the victim and pull the trigger; the Armenians were hiding from the death squads – they hoped – inside an Armenian church. She remembered vividly into her 80s the aftereffects of a military caliber rifle bullet entering and exiting the head of a human being. Her eyewitness video testimony is on file at UCLA.
    4. A large percentage of Armenian readers and posters @AW are direct descendants of AG survivors. Many have had their direct ancestors exterminated by Turks (Otttoman, CUP, Kemalist).
    By denying the AG, you are insulting the majority of readers of AW.
    5. Frankly, I am continually amazed at the tolerance and civility shown by most of my compatriots here @AW to the likes of you.

    And you ain’t seen nothing yet, pal, if you think you have been insulted.
    We have bested and worn out far more resilient and sophisticated denialists than you: if you stay around long enough, you’ll find out.

    • avatar tokado // May 5, 2012 at 5:14 pm //

      No dash between “Turk” and “oglu”, and no dash between the noun and “Bey”

      1- True
      2- True
      3- I question everything. If a curious mind is something insulting to you, them I’m sorry. Small advice, don’t get close to scientists, you will feel insulted…
      4- That is your own opinion.
      5- A tolerant and civilized behavior is the key. Doesn’t match to everyone’s personality of course.

      “And you ain’t seen nothing yet, pal, if you think you have been insulted.
      We have bested and worn out far more resilient and sophisticated denialists than you: if you stay around long enough, you’ll find out.”

      So more insults are waiting… Such a lovely person you are.

    • Tokado,

      Since you have a curious mind and question everything, do you question how over the course of a few years 3 million Christians disappeared from your ”homeland”? Or why you look nothing alike your ancestors from Central Asia? Or why Turkish citizens are living in houses and using properties that your government obtained through murder and deportation?

      Those are simple questions that are awaiting simple answers, don’t you think? I wonder if they ever crossed your curious mind and you found answers to those simple questions? If so, would you be kind to enlighten us?

    • avatar tokado // May 7, 2012 at 2:06 am //

      Of course Sella, those people are either killed, forced to leave the country, or assimilated. I do not say that Ottomans were angels.

      I do not question why we don’t look like our ancestors from Central Asia though. I just don’t care the race issues. I mean who cares about being a “pure” (does this notion even exist?) race or something. Turks, like Armenians, or other populations around are mixes of many racial characteristics. It actually is a very good thing in genetics point of view.

      They live in those houses because their fathers, and their grandfathers have lived there. Those were given to them by the Ottoman Government. This is as simple as that.

  50. avatar john the turk // May 3, 2012 at 4:42 am // Reply

    Okay. Boyajian. let’s negotiate the amount of the compensation. First tell me exactly what is in your mind I will try my best especially if you are willing to give me some sort of commission

  51. avatar Boyajian // May 4, 2012 at 6:06 pm // Reply

    Okay, John the Turk, first you arrange for transfer of Mt. Ararat to Armenia as a gesture of your trustworthiness and then we’ll talk…

    • avatar VTiger // May 5, 2012 at 4:20 am //

      Dear Boyajian,please read what the Turkish cowboy John the Wayne has commented yesterday in TZ:
      ohn the turk , 03 May 2012 , 20:33
      Mr Mahcupyan I know that you want all people in Turkey to go to the fake genocide monument in Kervansaray(Yerevan) and knee down and beg the Armenian forgiveness in delusional mind. I would love that what the Turkish state says about the Armenian issue is distorted information but unfortunately what the Turkish official view says is absolutely correct.The truth is Armenians played a gamble and lost.Your problem is you do not know how to digest the outcome which is weird after a century. Armenians in general very well deserved to live in Lebanon , sunny California and Glendale.I am sure Glendale will be the capital of the new Armenian state in America 5000 years later as it will be your ancestral land at that time

    • avatar Boyajian // May 5, 2012 at 8:41 am //

      VTiger, it is hard to believe that that kind of mentality exists, but as we know and see above, it is true.

    • VTiger and Boyajyan,

      We should not be surprised a bit. The country that once was called a genocide zone, the country that names her cities’ streets after the criminals who orchestrated the Christian genocide, the country whose head is telling the world that he is feeding Armenians knowing that his country owes billions to Armenians, may as well produce many citizens like John the Turk and Necati Genis.

  52. avatar ragnar naess // May 5, 2012 at 1:32 pm // Reply

    boyajian
    people like John the Turk should just be ignored in an anonymous exhange of words. If we knew hm personally we might see his whole personality and possibly say something that would reach him as a human being. But writing in AW seems to be a kind of macabre play for him

    • avatar necati // May 5, 2012 at 2:48 pm //

      Mr. Naessi,

      i know only Turkish posters here in AW must be ignored. But not those armenians like AVery, Vtiger, Sylvia…

    • Necati,

      Why is that you always do not understand what people post here? Is it because you have some trouble with comprehension because it is written in English or because you have some mental problems? I hope it is not the latter.

      Posters like Avery, Vtiger, Sylva, RVDV, Tmid and even Tokado not only should not be ignored but are welcome to post here because their posts are very valuable and much appreciated.

      However, posters like you and John the Turk should be ignored because 99% of what you write here lacks of substance.

  53. To Tokado and to all Turks who are hung up with the genocide term and compensation.
    We keep hearing Turks saying that 1.5 million Armenians were killed 100 years ago thus today’s Turks have nothing to do with it.

    I have a question to all Turks.
    Are you using the land that you stole from Armenians? Are you living in the houses that belonged to Armenians? Are you using them today? Yes? Then you have to return. It does not belong to you. Why is it so difficult to understand? Whether you admit is was genocide or not your country has to return what they stole from Armenians. It will take time until we get back what belonged to us but we will get back.

    • Are you referring to the houses, churches, etc. that were taken or the actual land (eastern Turkey)? Since 1514, a big chunk of historical Armenia has been under Turkish control. 400 years before the genocide. I understand why you call it stolen land, and I’m not against that land being returned to Armenia but what I’m trying to say is, that land which you say was stolen during the genocide, was stolen 400 years before the genocide. And I have a problem with the word stolen as well. Properties: homes, possessions, schools, churches were definitely stolen but in 1514 the Ottomans defeated the Safavids in battle and took over most of the Armenian highland. I understand that the lands in question were not Persian lands to lose but irregardless I think the word “conquer” can apply to what happened in 1514.

      So essentially, as part of compensation of a 100 year old crime, lands that haven’t been under Armenian control for at least 500 years (remember it was part of the Safavid empire before the Ottoman) will be included. I guess this is similar to the creation of Israel. And though I support the Jewish people returning and living on their historical homeland, I do feel very sorry for the Palestinians who suffer the consequences of the it. The Jews may have lived there long before the Palestinian Arabs ever did, but that, to me, doesn’t mean the Palestinians have no right less of a right to be on those lands. Would you agree?

    • avatar Boyajian // May 6, 2012 at 9:51 am //

      RVDV, the land may have been conquered, “400 years before the genocide” but the indigenous people still had “properties: homes, possessions, schools, churches.” The land still held its people, despite the conquering, despite the claims of ownership by the conquerors. To the Armenians, they still had Armenia, regardless of who they paid their taxes to. They were used to paying taxes to all sorts of so-called conquerors. It wasn’t until the genocide that the land lost its people. That was the climax of the conquering that began hundreds of years earlier. But even with that, the conquering wasn’t complete. Because wherever displaced Armenians were scattered, they took a piece of the land with them, in them. Turks have never conquered Armenians.

      Try to understand.

      You are holding a prickly fruit in your hand. You can’t get to the juicy center without getting poked by a thorn.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 6, 2012 at 10:32 am //

      RVDV, your comparison to the Jews is a natural one. We are both groups that claim rights to a homeland. But the comparison has it limits. Armenians were only separated from their homeland in the last one hundred years by a genocide that occurred on their homeland. Our collective memory for the orchards, the mountains, the fields, the churches, real places that some Armenians still hold deeds for, is very fresh.

      We Armenians naturally have much sympathy for the displaced Palestinians, while we understand the longing of the Jews for their home. Both people have their rights. There are no easy answers here.

      Similarly, there are difficult questions for the 21st century Turk: Should Turkey continue to benefit from the spoils of genocide? Should the crime of genocide by the Turks continue to go unpunished? Do Armenians have the right to reclaim what was stolen from them, despite the cost to Turkey?

      Armenians have rights as humans, as a people, and as individuals. Turkey has flagrantly violated these rights for more than 100 years.

    • RVDV,

      No, by stolen land, property and wealth I mean the land, property and wealth that was stolen from Armenians through murder during Adana massacres by Sultan Hamid and Armenian Genocide by Ottoman Turks.

      Did you know that after Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians and driven out over half a million Armenians from their homes Talat pasha asked one of the US insurance company to give the list of Armenians who had insurance from that company? He said that since all Armenians were dead the Turkish government should be the beneficiary. It is in the documentary I posted a few days ago.

      Please, do not compare Israel creation with Armenia. Yes, I feel very sorry for Palestinians, since it was their homeland, and they were not the one who exterminated Jews. In our case, I do not feel sorry for Turks because it was them who exterminated Armenians and stole their land.

      As to land return, the only way to deal with this fairly is to revive the Sevres treaty.

    • Boyajian,

      I have to disagree with you on the note that RVDV’s comparison with Jews is natural.

      Palestinian people had no involvement in the Jewish Holocaust but they had paid dearly for it. It was very unfair to Palestinians. If Germans/UK/world wanted to compensate Jews they had to cut a chunk of German land and give it to Jews and not to take the land from Palestinian people and give it to Jews.

      Turks on the other hand exterminated Armenians, took their properties and wealth through murder and are using them TODAY. Plus we have the treaty of Serves.

      Turkish people have built a whole industry on Armenian genocide. To this day, Turkey is earning money from something that they have no credit. They are showing Akhtamar church, our beloved ancient capital Ani and our other cultural monuments to tourists and earn money as a nation.The same goes for Greek cultural treasures.

      We have an old Armenian proverb which applies to Turkish nation as a whole precisely. «Չտեսավ պատից կախ տեսավ Ճակտից կախ։» Which means that someone who has never seen or known something, all of a sudden, becomes the owner of it without having any credit.

    • avatar Hairenakitz on YouTube // May 6, 2012 at 7:42 pm //

      @ RVDV

      Have you heard of Australian native aboriginies, and ‘Native Land Title’?

      Here is an Aborigini Elder’s statement, which answers you and many Turks properly!

      The tide of history can never take away our connection to land, because it is a spiritual connection at a higher level. Our law and spirituality is intertwined with the land, the people and creation, and this forms our culture and our sovereignty.

      Words of: Wadjularbinna, Gungalidda Elder (Gulf of Carpentaria)

    • avatar tokado // May 7, 2012 at 2:19 am //

      I am a little confused. Are we talking about the acquisition by force of the lands and the wealth of a group of Ottoman citizens/subjects (Armenians) by the state in 1915; or the first arrival of Tuks/Ottomans/Seljuks to Anatolia?

      I see a claim in the first case. But I fail to see for the second.

    • avatar VTiger // May 7, 2012 at 7:00 am //

      How about our own compatriots,those who continue of living in Armenian Highlands,whether hidden,islamised, Kurdified, Alawite,Hamshen (necati?)…All these express their identities once they feel safe…We have not forgotten them.

  54. avatar Boyajian // May 5, 2012 at 8:40 pm // Reply

    Necati and John the Turk, when you make statements suggesting that there was good reason for innocent, unarmed, peace-loving men, women, children and elderly to be ruthlessly deported, massacred, and left to die of thirst and hunger in a Syrian desert, than you make yourself an object of scorn. Rational and moral people do not justify genocide or genocidal acts or geno-deportations. You have both said some very ugly things on this site which I can’t ignore.

  55. Denialist Turkoglu Tokado Bey:

    3. { “I question everything.”}
    Do you question that there was a WW2 and there was a Jewish Holocaust or you only question the historical, unquestionable fact of the Armenian Genocide, because you are a Turk ?

    Do you question the fact that Ottoman Turkey was the aggressor in WW1 ? i.e. OT attacked the Allies first ? Or do you believe the myth created by Turks that “Turkey was a victim of British/French/Russian aggression” during WW1 ?

    Do you question the fact that Earth is not flat, and that it revolves around the Sun ? .
    Do you question your belief that there is such a thing as ‘Turk’ ?
    Maybe there isn’t. Maybe you are not a ‘Turk’.
    Shall I go on ?

    And a small advice to you: I know the difference between a true scientist, an ordinary denialist, a scientific denialist, and all the variations in between..
    You should learn to tell the difference too.

    There has been pseudo-scientific “research” done that conclusively “prove” that the Holocaust could not have happened, because there presumably was not enough ash residue in the crematoriums (‘scientifically’ calculated, of course), not enough crematoriums to murder that many, etc, etc, etc.

    Mustafa Kemal commissioned ‘scientific’ studies to ‘prove’ that Turks were some kind of a super race.
    [The First Turkish Historical Congress held in Ankara in 1932 was the first big step. In the 10-day-long official gathering, many “scientists” presented many “findings” about the origins of the Turkish people. Dr. Reşit Galip, a passionate supporter of Atatürk, defined this “superior race” as “the tall, white, thin-nosed, proper-lipped, often blue-eyed Alpin race,” known for virtues such as “civility, heroism, and artistic and social talent.”] (from Hurriyet)

    And someone who thinks the word ‘ Turkophile’ is racist is in no position to evaluate what is an insult and what is not.

    4. Nope, not opinion – Fact.
    Several European countries criminalize the Denial of Armenian Genocide. So, not only AG Denial is properly considered a crime, ‘crime’ being a very high legal threshold (as vs ‘libel’, for example), but AG Denial being considered an ‘insult’ to an Armenian is on a very firm foundation. (requiring a much lower threshold).

    5. Same should be expected from our Turkish and Turkophile guests.

    Regarding ‘insults’: like I said, anyone that denies the Armenian Genocide ipso facto is insulting me and Armenians and gets no consideration from me.
    Tell your denialist friends.

    • avatar tokado // May 7, 2012 at 1:56 am //

      “Denialist Turkoglu Tokado Bey:”

      I seriously wonder why you feel the urge of constantly teasing me by putting the work turk everywhere. Who use the word “Turkoglu”, there is only one basketball player with that name, I don’t know any else. Probably in your mind you try to insult me…

      “Do you question that there was a WW2 and there was a Jewish Holocaust or you only question the historical, unquestionable fact of the Armenian Genocide, because you are a Turk ?”

      Am I not clear? I question everything. Everything. Why not? What harm can come by questioning things? The only outcome of questioning is making claims stronger more solid. Didn’t you questioned 1+1=2 by counting with your fingers. Did somebody beat you because you question an “unquestionable” mathematical fact?

      “Do you question the fact that Earth is not flat, and that it revolves around the Sun ?
      Do you question your belief that there is such a thing as ‘Turk’ ?
      Maybe there isn’t. Maybe you are not a ‘Turk’.
      Shall I go on ?”

      Again, of course I do. People who questioned the Catholic church’s “unquestionable” truth of the flat Earth had discovered that Earth was not flat.
      Maybe there is not such a thing as a turk. Maybe I am not a Turk. Do you think that would bother me? I don’t feel pride or shame of my nationality. Only my personal achievement give me pride, or failures shame.

      “And a small advice to you: I know the difference between a true scientist, an ordinary denialist, a scientific denialist, and all the variations in between..
      You should learn to tell the difference too.”

      Please enlighten me.

      “And someone who thinks the word ‘ Turkophile’ is racist is in no position to evaluate what is an insult and what is not.”

      I don’t have problem with that word. I though have a problem when someone says Turkophiles are ……… Than you generalize it and may go to racism.

      I am sorry that you feel insulted. But I cannot stop questioning historic events. If they are facts for you than you should not worry. If they are facts than we will meet at the same conclusion evidently.

  56. RVDV:

    There are several flaws in your thinking with regard of lands being stolen etc. You appear to justify the Ottoman takeover of Western Armenia on the 16th century calling it “conquer”. Perhaps from the Turkish perspective it was a conquer, but what if you put yourself in Armenians’ shoes? For us it was a forced subjugation. Besides, why does your chronology start in the 16th century? Whay won’t you roll back several centuries to the Battle of Manzikert that marked the beginning of the explicit military invasion of Asia Minor by the terrorizing Seljuk Turkic nomads? Or this was a “conquer”, too? If any conquer is justified by you, then why Turks react angrily to the re-conquer by the Balkan, North African, and Middle Eastern peoples of their lands in the 19th-early 20th centuries? With such a mentality any occupation can be justified, for instance the occupation of a sovereign UN member-state of Cyprus in the 1970s. Have you ever given it a thought that for an ancient people like Armenians, the history doesn’t start either in the 16th or the 11th century with the unwanted appearance of the Turkic nomads or the Ottoman mass murderers, because Armenians were living on those lands for millennia before. That’s why we consider these lands stolen by the Turks as a result of mass physical and cultural extermination of the Armenians.

    I understand your point re: the Jewish and Palestinian presence in the Middle East whereas the Jews rightfully claim these lands as theirs because of the proven record of their existence on them for millennia. But for Jews and the Arabs some accommodation on the same lands is more feasible at least theoretically than for the Armenians and the Turks. Why? Because Palestinians never perpetrated a wholesale savage extermination of the Jews, whereas the Turks did this to the Armenians. This is an important aspect that differentiates the two cases.

    • Berch:

      Naturally someone’s conquest is another’s subjugation, defeat, oppression, etc. I began in the 16th century because that was when the Ottomans effectively came to hold sovereignty over much of Armenia and Kurdistan. I’m not trying to glorify anything by calling it a conquest- I’m just calling it like I see it (solely my opinion).

      ” If any conquer is justified by you, then why Turks react angrily to the re-conquer by the Balkan, North African, and Middle Eastern peoples of their lands in the 19th-early 20th centuries?”

      I can’t answer that question, I’m not a Turkish nationalist. AND I never said it was justified. I did not use the word conquer as a justification of what happened in 1514. All I said was the issue (control over Armenia and Kurdistan regions) was fought fair and square in the battle field and the Ottomans happened to be stronger side at the time, and they won. You can look at it like all lands were conquered at one point, or all lands were stolen from someone else at some point. I don’t view the word conquest with a positive connotation per say. To be honest, if I was Armenian I’d probably say it was stolen as well.

      Boyajian, Sella:

      I understand what your saying and the limitations with the Israel comparison.

      Boyajian: “Should Turkey continue to benefit from the spoils of genocide? Should the crime of genocide by the Turks continue to go unpunished? Do Armenians have the right to reclaim what was stolen from them, despite the cost to Turkey?”

      Well yes, but then a lot of things SHOULD be done. The question is how we do it. (I say “we” because I’d rather stand with people like you than my people on this issue.)

  57. An apogee of Turkish denialist mentality à la tokado:

    Q. “What, in your opinion, happened to 2 -2.2 million native Armenians of Eastern Asia Minor?”
    A. “They died.”

    Now, let’s apply this petty mentality to a sensitive Turkish case:

    Q. “What, in your opinion, happened to the nine Turkish activists on board of Mavi Marmara?”
    A. “They died.”

  58. avatar john the turk // May 7, 2012 at 11:40 am // Reply

    Venomous Tiger
    I know for a fact that I have definitely Armenian blood in my vein and I do look like Armenian not Turk , however I do enjoy betraying my ex nation Armenians I would advise you to do the same

    • avatar VTiger // May 8, 2012 at 5:08 am //

      Turkish cowboy John the Wayne,I don’t give a hoot to what you think you are,let alone for your advice!
      One day you can become of Greek extraction the next of Armenian.One day you’re a devout christian the next a muslim.One day your wife is of Greek extraction & you of Armenian.
      You’ve advertised yourself more than enough.

  59. “I question everything” –says Doubting Thomas tokado.

    When it comes to the fate of Armenians you wouldn’t question that they died, i.e. collectively stopped living en masse regardless of age and conditions of health. Why don’t you question that they died, btw, don’t you question everything? At the same time I bet you’d strongly question that they were murdered or starved to death, wouldn’t you?

    Aren’t these tiny little preferential peculiarities of the denialist Turkish logic “charming”?

    • avatar tokado // May 8, 2012 at 1:13 pm //

      Do I need to make a list of the things that I question to please you? Everything is not big enough for you? Of course I do question why/how/when they died. How many Armenians were in Anatolia? Can it be called a genocide? Was it organized? How was the situation at that time? Who gave the orders, why? etc etc… The I read, I watch, I learn questions begin to fade. If I tell you that you grandfather had killed mine, would you question this claim or would you accept it immediately? If you accept it then fine. If you question it then tell me how that is different that my questioning?

      “Aren’t these tiny little preferential peculiarities of the denialist Turkish logic “charming”?”

      I love the attitude of many posters here. And I think I’ve come up with an algorithm:

      - Check if the poster X accepts clearly AG. If it’s true X is friend.
      - Check if X is Turkish and/or doesn’t clearly hate Turks/Turkey then X is not a friend. X is a denialist Turk with a twisted denialist Turkish logic.

      - Then call fanatics.
      – Regardless of what X says create an artificial scenario in your head. Ask X to give graphic details of how Armenians are dead. Never be satisfied. Because you like horrible images in your head.
      – Put the logic aside, whatever X says anything, (it’s even not related to AG) link to AG and insult X.
      – Always use the work Turk as an insult. Put it before every derogatory word.
      – Always finish your comment by putting a sarcastic looking, but in truth impolite and ignorant phrase.

  60. RVDV:

    I appreciate that you’re trying to glorify anything by calling it a conquest, but I believe you’re smart enough to see things from universal—not just narrowly Turkish—perspectives. That’s why I invited you to roll back to the 11th century when sedentary Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, and others were peacefully living on their ancestral lands when hordes of uncouth nomadic Seljuk Turks appeared in the area. You say you call things by their name. Appearance of terrorizing Seljuk Turks in Asia Minor from the steppes of Mongolia and areas adjacent to the Altay mountains in the 11th century AD was what, as you see it? Also, from the Nazi perspective, Hitler started the conquest of Europe in 1939. But the world calls it Nazi occupation. How do you call it? I believe you have a rough idea about just and unjust wars’ concept, don’t you? Since I hope you do, then Seljuk Turks appearance in Asia Minor and Ottoman Turks’ “holding sovereignty” over the area and beyond is what? Who were sedentary people and who were nomads in this particular case? Who were invaders and who were defenders? Who started the war and who attempted to defend their right to live on their lands? Who were the colonizers and who were the colonized? Who were the mass murderers and who were the victims?
    I asked a specific question. If you see Ottomans’ “holding sovereignty” over much of Armenia and Kurdistan as conquest in which one’s victory is another one’s subjugation, then Turkish “operation” in the sovereign UN member-state of Cyprus is what, as you see it?

    ”If any conquer is justified by you, then why Turks react angrily to the re-conquer by the Balkan, North African, and Middle Eastern peoples of their lands in the 19th-early 20th centuries? –I can’t answer that question; I’m not a Turkish nationalist.”

    You don’t have to be a Turkish nationalist to answer that question. You have to call things as you see them, just as you did with regards to the conquest-subjugation dilemma. If conquest is what you think it was when Ottoman Turks subjugated native peoples of Asia Minor, the Balkans, North Africa, and the Middle East, then when Turkish colonizers were driven out of most of those lands by the native freedom-fighters, shouldn’t you call it conquest, as well? Weren’t the Balkan peoples the stronger side at the time? Or conquest is a concept that may apply only to the expansionist and murderous Seljuk and Ottoman Turks?

    And no, the issue of control over Armenia and Kurdistan regions was not fought fair and square in 1514, because the intrusion of Ottomans’ predecessors, the Seljuk Turks, into the area in 1071 was not in and of itself a fair and square act. It was an explicit military intrusion into other peoples’ habitat from a place 3000 miles away.

    Likewise, not all lands were conquered at one point and not all lands were stolen from someone else at some point. I know you didn’t mean it, but this is a weird argument that denialist Turks sometimes try to make, forgetting—conveniently—that the anthropological science knows autochthonous people and allochthonous people. Autochthonous people, such as Jews, the Chinese, Greeks, Armenians, numerous African tribes, etc., are indigenous to a particular area. They normally don’t conquer other lands in order to secure a new habitat, but allochthonous people do. And Turks are one of them.

    • Berch:

      “Appearance of terrorizing Seljuk Turks in Asia Minor from the steppes of Mongolia and areas adjacent to the Altay mountains in the 11th century AD was what, as you see it?”

      Invasion.

      “But the world calls it Nazi occupation. How do you call it?”

      Warmongering and an invasion.

      I said hold sovereignty only as a way of saying the Turks controlled the region. Via force, etc. Regarding the Cyprus issue: I think the initial invasion of Cyprus was justifiable due to the fact of ethnic Turks being targeted in hate crimes. However, after the war ended and Turkey got its way, Turkey should have helped broker a legitimate peace treaty, left the island, and returned occupied lands and properties to their rightful owners.

      “”If any conquer is justified by you, then why Turks react angrily to the re-conquer by the Balkan, North African, and Middle Eastern peoples of their lands in the 19th-early 20th centuries?”

      Yeah, it was a conquest- or rather a re-conquest as they were taking back their own lands. But you asked me why Turks react angrily- I don’t know. I’m not angry per say about Greeks taking back Greece, it IS THEIR land, they aren’t taking Turkish lands. But a lot of nationalists feel “betrayed” especially by Arabs.

      Regarding your last paragraph. Well if you’re nomadic people, and most of the land in the world is inhabited by other ethnic groups, there is only one way that I can think of that you can make a homeland for yourself- push someone else out.

  61. Corection: “I appreciate that you’re NOT trying to glorify anything by calling it a conquest”

  62. tokado:

    in case you won’t find it in Turkish encyclopedias or on the globe of Turkey, Turkophiles are typically non-Turks characterized by an excessive affinity to and indiscriminate affection for anything Turkish. A Norsemen can be Turkophile. A member of the African tribe Bena Lulua can be Turkophile. But there is no such a race as “Turkophiles” so that any prejudice against members of such a race could be considered racism. Not to say that no Armenian poster ever said that “Turkophiles are ………” What are you smoking?

    I’m sure Avery will enlighten you further on this and other mumblings found in your inimitable post.

    P.S. “Generalization” and “racism” are your signature words for any occasion?

    • Maybe on another occasion, Berch.

      It is exceedingly difficult to hold a reasonable, logical discussion with someone who “questions everything”, including the fact that Earth has been definitely proven to be round and not flat. Rotating the Sun, and not the other way around.

      I understand it’s a stratagem to obscure one’s denialist sophistry, but it’s hard to pin down someone with logical arguments, when they proudly boast of irrationality.

    • Logical arguments??!!! Seriously??!! All I see are the very rude fanatics who blindly try to force their ideas without any single logic what so ever. We really live in different dimensions you and I.

      But well, a common property of fanaticism is a mind filled with dogma and the “if you are not with me, then you are against me” attitude.

    • anyone who believes the Earth may be flat is certainly living in a different dimension.

    • avatar tokado // May 8, 2012 at 5:02 pm //

      Like Pythagoras or Galilei, who questioned unquestionable facts despite the pressure of fanatics, and it turned out that the were right…

      I can only wish all people question even the smallest things. Hostory showed that great minds appear in such a process.

      Like I said to your friend Berch, this old tread went too long, and apparently it will not pass beyond an elementary school children dispute. I don’t see a point to comment any further.

      Have a nice day. I hope justice will prevail…

  63. You AW people force me to hate Armenians more and more…

  64. How did ancient Armenians expand their holdings from Black Sea to Kilikya? Buying out the locals? Good luck in poker?

  65. avatar Boyajian // May 8, 2012 at 8:27 am // Reply

    Genis, haters don’t need help to hate. You came here to hate.

  66. avatar Boyajian // May 8, 2012 at 8:34 am // Reply

    Murat, don’t be coy. Turkey is guilty of genocide and its cover-up. Armenia is guilty of neither. And Sella is right about the Treaty of Sevres. With it we have both moral and legal ground to make claims on the Armenian homeland.

  67. “You AW people force me to hate Armenians more and more… “

    Tokado: I hope you’ve noticed this post by Genis? Well, then whenever you dare to say that Armenians are filled with hate, I’ll make sure to shut you the h*** up with this post from a member of your ilk.

    Genis: Why do you hate Armenians more and more? Did Armenians steal two-thirds of the Turks’ ancestral homeland in Mongolian steppes and Altay Mountains? Or Armenians barbarously exterminated your entire ilk from the unborn to the elderly?

    Murat: No, ancient Armenians expanded their holdings from Black Sea to Cilicia by scorching the land of others, destroying religious and communal structures, forcibly converting the gyavurs to Zoroastrianism or Christianity, abducting girls to seraglios, group-raping women, burning and burying people alive, mass murdering everyone from baby to adult, and death-marching the whole populations to the sunny Syrian deserts… It was the Turks who expanded their filthy empire from Asia Minor to Northern Africa by a good luck in poker. Didn’t you know?

    • “Tokado: I hope you’ve noticed this post by Genis? Well, then whenever you dare to say that Armenians are filled with hate,”

      So Genis’ hate to Armenians is a proof of Armenians not filled with hate?? What kind of weird logic is that?? He is wrong. So are you.

      ” I’ll make sure to shut you the h*** up with this post from a member of your ilk.”

      Is this a threat? Is this your level?

    • Thanks for clearing all this up and once more confirming that all this is really about a medieaval blood feud, racism, and good old religious and ethnic hate.

    • avatar VTiger // May 8, 2012 at 2:40 pm //

      Murat E, ooops I should have written only Murat .Silly me!Tokado at least has the courage to question the intricate details, which I admire & love to read instead of repetitions of decades old denialists’ cliche same old parrot repetitions.
      This whole process is to exchange ideas & know each others’ thinking & not to exchange never ending insults & create more hatred.

    • you did miss a word, “force” …

    • avatar VTiger // May 9, 2012 at 3:16 pm //

      You have a brilliant record of hatred whether here or on TZ.Amnesia struck you again?

    • “you did miss a word, “force” …

      Genis, that was really funny:-)

      So, if someone will force you (not physically) to kill someone you think you can justify what you did?

      No one “forced” you to hate Armenians here. If you feel that the environment it so bad in the AW commentary section that you are being filled with hatred towards Armenians, you have to leave. No one can “force” you to hate someone because you have the option to leave before any hatred can be generated.

      Do not let the Armenian posters bring the worst out of you :-) Life is too short Genis.

    • See what Murat has commented in HRT, please read the article.So much for ethnic hate:
      Murat
      5/11/2012 2:54:21 PM
      I fear for her life… Dashnaks dont take these things kindly or lightly.
      http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/armenian-pop-artist-calls-for-peace-before-concert.aspx?pageID=238&nID=20464&NewsCatID=383

    • Murat, before writing that comment, has to remember that a Turk killed Hrant Dink not Dashnaks.

    • Funny Sella,this is what I’ve answered:
      I fear for her life? Similar to Hrant Dink’s?

    • VTiger,

      I read your comment before I wrote mine. My comment was based on your and Murat’s comment.

  68. avatar john the turk // May 8, 2012 at 11:23 am // Reply

    Berch
    I am impressed with what you have said to Murat. I am proud of you as an ex Armenian

  69. Genis’ hate of Armenians is a proof that no Armenian on these pages has ever explicitly stated that he or she is filled with hate towards modern-day Turks. Sorry to have to explain this further to you, someone else would have grasped this momentarily.. Whatever you commented re: Genis’ post represents YOUR weird logic because I only invited your attention to the fact of an explicit demonstration of hatred by one of your ilk. How is this weird of me, may I ask? Genis is definitely wrong. I’m not, unless you’re eager to juxtapose this hatred-filled co-ethnic with an Armenian who never descended so low as to express hatred towards anyone. But then this reveals your level.

    ” I’ll make sure to shut you the h*** up with this post from a member of your ilk. –Is this a threat? Is this your level?” Of course not, it’ll be beneath me to threaten a denialist Turk, but next time you open your mouth about hate, I’ll make sure to copy and paste Genis’ remark for you as a reminder.

    • avatar tokado // May 8, 2012 at 4:47 pm //

      Everybody thinks they are just, they are right, they are good. The wrong ones are always others….

      I think this old tread went too long, and apparently we are not getting anywhere. I don’t see a point to comment any further.

      Have a nice day. I hope justice will prevail…

  70. No, Murat, as many Armenians have more than once attempted to stuff this into the denialist heads of some Turkish posters here, this is not about a “mediaeval blood feud, racism, and good old religious and ethnic hate”. Once again, specially for you: this is about your nation’s guilt of genocide and its cover-up by all consecutive Turkish governments. Repeat this for yourself as a mantra, if you will: “This is about my nation’s guilt of genocide and its cover-up by all consecutive Turkish governments!” A heinous crime against humanity that was committed in 1915-1923 cannot be about mediaeval(?!) blood feud. I don’t know what history they teach you at Turkish schools, but it is generally known that Middle Ages lay between the 8th and the 15th centuries AD. The Armenian genocide happened in the early 20th century. Grasped the difference? Good…

    Racism? Oxford English Dictionary: 1. noun: “the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races”. In my earlier post I’ve described Ottoman practices well documented in the world archives and at the Turkish own Courts Martial of 1919, such as: destruction of religious and communal structures, forcible religious conversions, abductions to seraglios, gang-rapes of women, burning and burying people alive, mass murders, death marches, etc. In other words, I presented FACTS documented in the witness accounts and official dispatches. What is “racist” about presenting the facts, can you explain?

    John the idiot, as always, only you appeared to miss the irony in my post to Murat. Grow up…

  71. “Do I need to make a list of the things that I question to please you?” I thought you said you questioned everything, then why the list? Leave it blank, we’ll understand.

    What sources you read and watch re: AG? I suppose they’re not Armenian (we’re all compulsive liars, right, we massacred ourselves), but certainly hope they’re not distortionist Turkish either. Based on what studies your questions begin to fade and towards what direction? In particular, were there Armenians in Western Armenia (Turkified as ‘Eastern Anatolia’)? If yes, how many according to different sources? What happened to this multitude of ancient and native people? Do you think it is correct to say that they just “died”? If they collectively stopped living, do you care to question–since you question everything—as to what might have been causes of death? Once you determined that, do please question as to how it was possible for the Turkish government of the time not to notice that a distinct ethnic group that constituted 10-15% of the whole population of the empire (17-20 mln at the time) was being forcibly uprooted from their ancestral habitat, death marched towards deserts without food and water, and being mass murdered, raped, drowned, hanged, mutilated and tortured en route? If it wasn’t organized, then please question as to why the affectionate Turkish government of the time hasn’t stopped these mass crimes? Do also question the situation at the time. If you determine that there was WWI going on, could you make an extra effort to determine as to where geographically the Ottoman Armenians were mostly located? Anywhere close to the fronts and war zones? And finally, do question as to how it was possible for army commanders, gendarmes, soldiers, the valis, and other government employees—who typically act based on orders—to uproot, mass murder, gang-rape, mutilate, and death-march a whole multitude of people without central orders?

    P.S. If you tell me that my grandfather had killed yours, at least what I would do is not to DENY it outrightly, but promise to look into the matter open-mindedly and remorsefully. Unfortunately, the prevailing majority of the Turks posting here rush to deny the historical truth instead of looking into it.

    • avatar tokado // May 9, 2012 at 1:27 pm //

      “What sources you read and watch re: AG? I suppose they’re not Armenian”

      Armenian and Turkish

      “(we’re all compulsive liars, right, we massacred ourselves)”

      I have never said, implied or read such in these pages. Do you really think this of yourself?

      “Do you think it is correct to say that they just “died”?”

      I said they died. You put the word “just” to undermine/undervalue their death. They are murdered/starved/walked to death ipso facto died.

      For the rest of your “do you question” questions, yes I am and I will. Don’t worry.

      “P.S. If you tell me that my grandfather had killed yours, at least what I would do is not to DENY it outrightly, but promise to look into the matter open-mindedly and remorsefully. ”

      Great. This is the correct behavior I don’t argue anything against it. But if you “promise to look into the matter open-mindedly and remorsefully” you would be branded a denialist immediately since you have not accepted it. And that is my problem. I do promise to look into the matter open-mindedly and remorsefully. Yet as you see I am branded Denialist Turk.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 10, 2012 at 12:15 am //

      I think Tokado may deserve a little slack here. It is unfathomable for most Turks to acknowledge that their government and educational system has misled (lied to) its citizens regarding the Armenians and thus they question the veracity of Armenian claims. This questioning, in itself, does not necessarily make one a ‘denialist.’ If one questions things as they explore the issue, AND does so with an open and curious mind in order to discover the truth, AND is prepared to acknowledge the truth, no matter how contrary to what one has heretofore believed…than I can respect this.

      Some who deny the genocide are among the lowest of the low. We have encountered them here and know them by name. Others are somewhere along the journey for truth and I think we Armenians should be prepared to tolerate such questioning while resisting using the accusation of ‘denialist.’ We should educate them, even when their questioning offends us, because we may be reaching others who read this site (but don’t comment).

      Tokado, was it you who was so quick to call Armenians racist because they used the term ‘denialist Turk?’ Have you had any second thoughts on this?

    • Please Boyajian, I didn’t call Armenians racist, I called a particular commentator such. It may have been spent rashly, but still I find his/her language filled with very insulting generalizations. I have the impression that even the word Turk is used as an insult in some comments.

      I now think the word “fanatic” suits better than racist, which are equally wrong in my eyes.

  72. “Everybody thinks they are just, they are right, they are good. The wrong ones are always others…” But in this particular case you clearly have someone expressing hate towards someone else. Then who is right and who is wrong in your judgment? “I hope justice will prevail”. Then go ahead and serve justice for a hate-filled one. Why won’t you? Because he or she is a co-ethnic Turk? Is this your level?

  73. RVDV:

    {“Well if you’re nomadic people, and most of the land in the world is inhabited by other ethnic groups, there is only one way that I can think of that you can make a homeland for yourself- push someone else out.”}

    Q: What compelled Turkic tribes to leave their sparsely populated homeland in East and Central Asia and invade in force far more densely populated areas to the West ? Even today most of Central Asian countries, e.g. Turkmenistan, have very low population densities. So something other than the desire to find living space compelled them: what was it ?

    Also, regarding your comment from another post, but related to this subject:
    {“ You can look at it like all lands were conquered at one point, or all lands were stolen from someone else at some point. “}
    Not true: Not always; Not all. Logically impossible.

    Even today,

  74. RVDV:

    I don’t think any invasion by force is justifiable even if your co-ethnics are targeted in hate crimes. In the late 20th century there were many other mechanisms for conflict settlement. Hate crimes in Cyprus were mutual; local Turks committed many as well. Not to say that the very presence of Turks on the island was a residue of the Ottoman colonial expansion, and Greek Cypriots attempted to liberate their land from alien presence. Irrespective of these tensions, Turks chose the mechanism they’re historically accustomed to: to invade, occupy, forcefully settle, and then declare a “republic” on the occupied lands.

    “If you’re nomadic people, and most of the land in the world is inhabited by other ethnic groups, there is only one way that I can think of that you can make a homeland for yourself– push someone else out.” –If you could only imagine how awkward this sounds for us, sedentary Armenians. First of all, most of the world was not inhabited when Seljuk Turkic nomads started their military advances into the territories of other peoples. There was more than enough living space in their original habitat in the Mongolian prairies. That area should have become their homeland, as it originally was; no one was breathing into their necks in the vast lands of Central Asia. Therefore, there was no need to push someone out, more so some 3000 miles away from home. Seljuk Turkic invasion of Asia Minor was not driven by their desire to “make a homeland for themselves”, but by the desire to steal and utilize what civilized nations have achieved by hard work throughout millennia. Many modern-day Mongolian and Central Asian peoples live as nomads even today, but they chose to stay in their homeland, not to invade, scorch, and grab the homelands of others.

    • Ok be reasonable now. So, hypothetically, if Georgia started rounding up Armenians and killing them- in an unprovoked act, and Armenia invaded Georgia (with force) to stop this, you’d say it’s unjustifiable? (Just a side note, I recognize what happened in Cyprus is no one near this clear cut or one sided).

      Given specific circumstances you can justify killing someone- e.g. self defense/ your family was in danger. You can justify an invasion by force.

      Paul: You and I were talking about civility and such a few days ago. Of course you don’t have to kill and drive out one people to then live their yourself- people are perfectly capable of living together. But when people are uncivilized, their basic, animal instincts win out- e.g. I want to live here, they live here, I have weapons and manpower, I will take it by force. Regarding your last question- I don’t know. I’m not advocating or condoning massacres and genocide, but if your inferiority complex is so profound that you feel you have to literally wipe a people off the face of the earth, why live beside them for so long and then do it?

      Avery: ” the desire to find living space compelled them: what was it?”

      I think we both know the answer, but everything aside, I can’t blame people for not wanting to live in Mongolia and Turkmenistan.

    • “I don’t think any invasion by force is justifiable even if your co-ethnics are targeted in hate crimes”

      How humane of you… now explain this to the Azeris of Karabag!

    • Explain this, Murat, to the Armenians of Azerbaijan:

      Sumgait massacre of unarmed defenseless Armenian civilians (1988).
      Kirovabad massacre of unarmed defenseless Armenian civilians (1988).
      Baku massacre of unarmed defenseless Armenian civilians (1990).

      Explain this to the indigenous Armenians of NKR:

      Operation Koltso ethic cleansing of Armenians and massacre (1991).
      Military invasion of Independent NKR.
      War crimes bombardment of Stepanakert for months, after Azeri military completely surrounded it for 1 year and cut it off from the outside world in order to starve it into submission (Nazi Germany – Siege of Leningrad).

  75. RVDV,

    You say: “[…]there is only one way (for nomads) that I can think of that you can make a homeland for yourself- push someone else out.”

    I profoundly disagree with this. I don’t think that all nomadic tribes actually “made” a homeland for themselves. In fact, many stayed in their original habitat wandering around for centuries. But even if we agree that some “made a homeland for themselves” far away from their places of origin, such as Turks, what exactly do you mean by “pushing someone else out”? It means that when making a homeland for themselves nomads must mass slaughter all indigenous inhabitants of the land? Even the most notorious and the most expansionist nomadic warriors, the Mongols, attempted to accommodate themselves to the “communal living” with the native peoples. While murders, oppression, devastation, and heavy taxes were typical to Mongols too, they never committed mass physical extermination of native peoples.

    Why are the Turks so different?

  76. If I could humbly suggest, read non-Armenian and certainly non-Turkish sources. Witness accounts (foreign diplomats, consuls, missionaries, businessmen, military personnel, etc.) are the most important source to start.

    I don’t think I’m a compulsive liar having nearly all maternal relatives slaughtered by the Turks. But you suggested that we were prone of making generalizations and racist remarks. Might you be thinking this of yourself?

    I put the word “just” before “died” to undermine/undervalue your belief that a distinct ethnic group from baby to adult could stop living ( definition of ‘to die’) within a year, not to undermine/undervalue their death.

    “They are murdered/starved/walked to death ipso facto died.” Thanks for taking a small step forward from a moronic cynical statement “they died” to an acknowledgment that might have been murdered/starved/walked to death. Next stop: who caused their deaths and what was the ultimate goal? Final stop: how is such an act called in international law?

    “For the rest of your ‘do you question’ questions, yes I am and I will. Don’t worry.” –I don’t. You should. You are discovering the ugly truth about your nation.

    You won’t be branded ‘denialist’ solely because you still have to accept a fact. But when you shirk answering a specific question as to what you think happened to the Armenians and other Christians, and after several reminders finally spew out that they “died”, it certainly creates an impression that you deny the causes of their deaths, read: that they were deliberately targeted as a result of a state-sponsored campaign. We, the descendants of victims, KNOW this firsthand. Yet, as you see, we are branded generalizing racist Armenians.

  77. Come on, RVDV, you can do better than this. I mean your hypothetical example with Georgia rounding up and killing Armenians. This isn’t what happened in Cyprus. BTW, why didn’t you start with the year 1571 when the Greeks of Cyprus were conquered by Ottoman Turks and the Turks settled there?

    Since 1958 suburbs of Nicosia were an area of tension between Greek Cypriots and the Turks. In 1963, an armed conflict erupted between Greek Cypriot irregulars and Turkish fighters. Many civilians from both sides were killed in crossfire, others were massacred by Greek or Turkish irregulars and had their homes looted and burnt down in villages. Some 200 Turkish and some 150 Greek Cypriots were killed. Within a week after the violence flared up, the Turkish army regiment had seized a strategic position on the island. Then, in 1964, Turkey put forward the demand for partition of the island and used the failure of the Cypriot constitution as justification for a Turkish invasion. Turkish demand for partition provoked fighting again in 1967. It was settled after Turkey threatened to invade on the basis of “protection” of the Turks from “possible ethnic cleansing”. After the Greek military coup in 1974, Turkey issued a list of demands to the Greek junta including the removal of the head of the Cypriot government, the withdrawal of Greek officers from the Cypriot National Guard, the admission of Turkish troops to “protect” Turkish Cypriots, and access to the sea from the northern coast for Turkish Cypriots. These demands were rejected as they would have given Turkey an unacceptable authority over the island and in July-August of 1974 Turkey invaded the sovereign state of Cyprus. Once its objective had been achieved by the collapse of the Greek junta, however, Turkey went on to occupy a disproportionate part of the island, precipitating large-scale ethnic cleansing. A large number of Turks have been brought to the north from Anatolia to occupy the homes of the Greek Cypriot refugees.

    Does this course of events bear a resemblance to rounding up and killing Turkish Cypriots in an unprovoked act?

    “Given specific circumstances you can justify killing someone- e.g. self defense/your family was in danger. You can justify an invasion by force.”

    As a Christian I cannot justify killing someone nor can I justify an invasion by force because of interethnic, intercommunal clashes that took lives of both Turkish and Greek Cypriots. You cannot implement an invasion by force on the premises of a possible(?!) ethnic cleansing.

    • Berch: You know I am not that biased. I think you may have missed my side note after my hypothetical scenario: “Just a side note, I recognize what happened in Cyprus is no WHERE (typo) near this clear cut or one sided.”

      I was not trying to give a 1 to 1 comparison, just giving an extreme hypothetical scenario where I think it could be justified to invade.

    • In 1571, Ottomans conquered Cyprus, at a tremendous cost, from Venetians. Similarly with Crete, neither of which had been ruled by Greeks for over almost a thousand years.

      Venetians had sucked Cyprus dry. Much of the Greek population had status of slaves, owned nothing and suffered under the Venetian yoke. It is said the Ottoman rule saved these people from the tyranny of the Catholics and liberated them just as it did many Balkan nations.

      These are the real facts in our real universe. But I still strongly urge you to join us in the millenium!

    • I do agree here with Murat. The same is said about Christian serfs moving to the Ottoman controlled lands to benefit from Suleiman’s reforms.

      “Suleiman gave particular attention to the plight of the rayas, Christian subjects who worked the land of the Sipahis. His Kanune Raya, or “Code of the Rayas”, reformed the law governing levies and taxes to be paid by the rayas, raising their status above serfdom to the extent that Christian serfs would MIGRATE to Turkish territories to benefit from the reforms.” – Lord Kinross.

      NOW, that said, again, I’m not making the Ottomans out to be the good guys who saved the day for poor Christians serfs in any way, shape, or form. I’m just saying let’s not give the Venetians, or Austrians, or the Holy Roman Empire, or the Russians a pass simply because they never committed violence- genocide- like the Ottomans.

    • Nobody denies or argues that there were good sultans.
      We are not discussing those & is not the subject. We are discussing what the bad sultans & rulers committed against the Armenians ,Assyrians,Greeks.What is the end result?
      Please re-read the title of this article: ‘Your demands are our demands’.

    • “…Venetians, or Austrians, or the Holy Roman Empire, or the Russians a pass simply because they never committed violence- genocide- like the Ottomans.”

      Really? I mean really? How much do you know about Roman history? Or Czarist or Russia or Stalin? Do I really need to dig up and list here?

      By the way, I am not the one going back to Seljuks, and Mongols and Romans etc. I am all for leaving all in the past and history books. I would not personally put myself in the ridiculous position of judging history, historical eemts and characters, going ack centuries. One thing I can do though is to defend simple facts. Well, as much as I am allowed here.

    • ….or defend basic lies, blatant denials and convoluted Turkish delusions..

      wasn’t it you, Denialist Murat Bey, that wrote a while back @AW:

      {“I personally can not wait when all the politicians can “recognize’ the Armenian version of realty and swear on a stack of their favorite holy books. Then we all get to see that facts remain as facts and history can not be re-written and then the ones who are feeding on this industry may engage in more productve activities.”}.

      And what “facts” would the Turkish version of realty be ?
      Is it the same version of Turkish reality that believes that maybe, just maybe, the Earth might be flat ?

  78. RVDV,

    “You and I were talking about civility […]. But when people are uncivilized, their basic, animal instincts win out- e.g. I want to live here, they live here, I have weapons and manpower, I will take it by force.” —Thanks for basically admitting that the primary motivation of Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish mistreatment of native peoples and modern-day Turkish state’s reluctance to offer an apology is indicative of the lack of civility.

    “[…] if your inferiority complex is so profound that you feel you have to literally wipe a people off the face of the earth, why live beside them for so long and then do it? —Easy. When you’re an uncouth terrorizing nomad lacking civility, or an Ottoman descendant thereof, however profound your inferiority complex may be, you NEED more advanced peoples living beside you. For the following major reasons:

    They have already developed civilizational distinctiveness that I can use (religion, architecture, music, language and script, technological achievements, domicile features, etc.).
    They create.
    They work hard and pay me taxes that I made unbearable for them.
    They’re forced to give their elder sons to devshirme so I can maintain the army.
    They’re forced to give me their other sons as yeniçeri so I can protect the authority of the Sultan.
    They build my mosques and other structures as needed.
    They can be oppressed so I abduct their most beautiful girls to seraglios and ennoble my racial features.
    They serve in my army.
    Because of their ancient history and cultural advancement I can make my own history more archaic and attribute their cultural edifices to my achievements.
    They live on territories that I can invade and incorporate into my expanding empire.

    And when my empire collapses and I’ll try to salvage as many territories as possible because my inferiority complex is so profound and memories of an empire so fresh, I will wipe these people off since I no longer need them.

    • Paul: “Thanks for basically admitting that the primary motivation of Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish mistreatment of native peoples and modern-day Turkish state’s reluctance to offer an apology is indicative of the lack of civility.”

      Well yeah, from the research I’ve done on the topic, which has been a lot recently, the lack of civility seems to be the fit. I don’t want to put too much blame on today’s Turks because they are the product of the Turkish education system, and this is a country that has blocked youtube on 2 different occasions so my lack of civility comment is directed more towards the government officials who deliberately distort historical facts.

  79. Boyajian:

    I presume by “a particular commentator” it is meant me, thy humble servant. In “An Easter Message: A New Birth of the Armenian Spirit” a Turkish poster by the pen name ‘tokado’ has accused me of being a racist based on following phrases:

    B: “Turks and Turkophiles sit reluctantly well with some sort of ‘theoretical’ restoration of justice”.
    T: “Wow, now your generalizations include Turkophiles. Racism is dripping from every paragraph that you write.”

    B: “[…]could you try to explain to us the peculiarities of ‘Turkish logic’, so to speak?”
    T: “And again racism… You try to advocate for justice, yet you are racist. And there is no point to argue with a racist.”

    Please, Boyajian, so far as tokado didn’t stigmatize you as racist, could you try to evaluate—with your hand on your heart—as to what was racist, in the classical sense of the term, about my comments above. In case they are misleading being taken out of the context, do please spare a minute and visit the “An Easter Message: A New Birth of the Armenian Spirit” thread for the complete texts of the comments.

    On the other hand, I see some slow metamorphosis in tokado’s line of thinking (just avoided using the term ‘loigic’ which sounds so spooky to him). See, at the outset he called me racist; now he calls me fanatic. What a progress! At the outset, he identified the reason of Armenians’ disappearance from their native Eastern Asia Minor because “they died”. Now he admits that “they [were] murdered/starved/walked to death”.

    All is not lost.

    • No that was based on many additional phrases than those you cite. But well, I actually begin to find you funny with your weird logic, a bit spiced with racism and fanaticism.

      Oh and again I say that THEY DIED. And let me tell you, all is lost for you. You can never ever reach to a satisfying solution since you will only be satisfied by an extinction of the Turkish people.

    • I guess I need to clarify a bit more of the weirdness of your logic. But it probably won’t matter because you will try to understand with your weird logic. I’ll try though:

      When you asked me “what happened to 2 millions etc etc” I answered they died. Is this wrong, is this incorrect? Yes, they do not live anymore, and yes, they died. Logically %100 correct.

      If you knew how to talk politely you would have asked “and how they died?” And I would have told you what I told to Bojayian. But instead you began to insult me saying that they are not dead.

      You are reacting purely based your emotions. You don’t listen. You ask me questions and immediately you assign me an answer. Let me tell you this my friend, you may have read many sources, you may be very knowledgable on this issue, but if you react this way nobody will ever listen you.

      And finally a short message to all friends here ( I consider all who care enough to come here, read comments, and make comments as friends). Please be open minded, don’t begin to shout or insult people. Listen them. If you have a deep knowledge about the subject, shared with them. Suppress the urge to satisfy your ego, and to avenge your ancestors with lame comments. And please be polite, people care enough to come here and write their opinions.

    • Boyajian:

      you still think the gentleman “….may need a little slack here” ?
      I know you are a psychologist by trade: what do you make of the gentleman’s – let us say ‘interesting’ – reply to Berch’s completely benign, conciliatory post ?

  80. Berch, I don’t consider you a racist, in the classical sense or any sense. I think Tokado was wrong to label you as one. Nor do I believe you are a fanatic. I think Tokado has yet to understand you. I have yet to understand him/her (?) Hand to my heart, I do think your discussion with him would bring better results with less generalizing. He seems to want to be seen as an individual, not a stereotypical ‘Turk.’

    Avery, yes I am still willing to give him ‘some’ slack even though his comment to Berch was marked by considerable arrogance and insensitivity. (Sorry Tokado, that’s how I see it). He represents a certain mindset that I am interested in learning more about.

    Tokado, you seem too educated to not be aware that using the phrase ‘they died’ would make you appear flippant and indifferent to Armenia’s pain. So why did you choose this provocative phrase? Why do you continue to defend this choice of words?

    • Him :-)

      Of course I do know it was a insensitive comment. I was already branded Denialist without even saying anything. When you know that whatever you say you would get insults, you become insensitive. My words were not to offend anybody, they were a simple (and justified imo) reaction to fanaticism.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 11, 2012 at 5:53 am //

      Define fanatic, Tokado.

    • I’ll cite Churcill, whose definition I agree “A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject”. In addition to that a fanatic has little tolerance for contrary opinions.

    • ["The denial of the evil—inconceivable, indescribable, and irreversible—committed and its regeneration with lies corrupts the entire system. Denial reproduces itself with lies."] (Ayse Gunaysu on May 11, 2012 in Opinion)

      Denial reproduces itself with lies.

  81. Equivocation continues. I only see your racist labels with regards to these particular phrases I cited. Many additional phrases? Bring them up! Let’s everyone determine who is the liar here. By the way, if my phrase–put in quotes–“Turkish logic” and affixed with “so to speak” is weird and racist, than your phrase “your logic a bit spiced with racism and fanaticism” is what?

    “Oh and again I say that THEY DIED. And let me tell you, all is lost for you. You can never ever reach to a satisfying solution since you will only be satisfied by an extinction of the Turkish people.” —I will stop responding to the gentleman (thanks, Avery) because I now believe that he must have something fundamentally wrong in his psyche. If Boyajian, as psychologist, so desires, she may take on examining this pathological case.

  82. Tokado, in my opinion, fanaticism includes an element of irrationality. It is demeaning to call people fanatics or racists when they are expressing justified anger and frustration over a crime that has been denied, distorted, minimized and ignored for so long. I strongly recommend that you read the article by Ayse Gunaysu referenced by Avery above. You, like so many Turks, are a victim of institutional indifference to Armenian pain. You further insult those who have already been deeply injured by genocide when you fail to receive and hold their pain and anger, and treat it instead as an irrational response to the injustice they have endured.

    With all due respect, you really don’t get it. Berch, Avery and Paul, and others, including myself, don’t hate Turks. Our anger is against an unjust situation. It is not directed at individual Turks. However, individual Turks become recipients of anger or scorn when they naively parrot the official lies they have been taught or demean the rationality of the anger that Armenians express toward Turkish detachment or deliberate deception. Yes ‘Turkish’ detachment. A by-product of the official ‘Turkish’ cover-up. Am I also a fanatic?

    Because I realize that most Turks are unaware of how offensive their doubts and questions are, and because I understand that you believe you are a rational and open-minded person, (and you probably are in most areas of your life), I do give you some leeway. It is the nature of a blindspot that you are unaware of your blindspot.

    My question to you is, why not pause and ask yourself (ego aside) “What am I missing? Why am I encountering an angry response?” Don’t be so quick to judge Armenians as fanatics and such, when perhaps you don’t see the whole picture. Stretch yourself. Ask questions with an open-mind. And try to receive the pain that is behind the anger with compassion instead of defensiveness.

    • I will read the article. Thanks Avery for the ref.

      I fully understand the anger against the Turkish state. And you and many others already said that they do not hate Turks. The problem is that imo what you say doesn’t match to what you do (not Boyajian you, but a general you). One cannot say that he/she doesn’t hate Turks, and use the word Turk as an insult. This is inconsistent, and this is my problem.

      Maybe you too do not realize your blindspot, which is the insulting language used against Turks. As I might have sounded indifferent to your pain, you might be unaware of your derogatory language. (Again you here is not you in person, just a general you presenting a certain attitude).

      I do not say “hey before criticizing me look at yourself!”. I am saying I might be wrong, and so are you. And 2 wrongs do not make right unfortunately.

      “Am I also a fanatic?”

      No, because you explained yourself correctly.

      ” Don’t be so quick to judge Armenians as fanatics and such”

      Again I have never generalized my claims to Armenians. I use my words for individuals based on their attitudes. It’s nothing to do with nationality, race or anything.

    • tokado your quote:’One cannot say that he/she doesn’t hate Turks, and use the word Turk as an insult. This is inconsistent, and this is my problem. ‘
      Few times I’ve read in your comments that the word ‘Turk’ used was an insult.
      You are aware that the word ‘Turk’ has the stigma of insult in so many languages from Latin America, Europe to Middle East.
      You are also aware that this ‘Turk’ insult stigma has nothing to do with us the Armenians, as this insult/stigma was created before the Genocide,and because of the very brutal history of the Ottomans.
      Unfortunately with the continuing Genocide denial by Turkey does not help for this stigma to be erased.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 12, 2012 at 8:49 am //

      Tokado, perhaps you are partly right. I do have hate for the stereotype ‘Turk’ and all it represents. And if you feel insulted by the term ‘Turk,’ perhaps it is because you too hate the stereotype and all it represents.

      Who created the stereotype? How did this negative image of a Turk emerge? Why did Ataturk dedicate himself to trying to create a new and modern Turk that distanced itself from the stereotype? Did he succeed? Was the old ‘Turk’ transformed? Did a new Turk take its place? Has it morphed into two Turks? Or more? Is there a public Turk and a private Turk? Who and what is a ‘Turk?’

      Armenians did not create the stereotype. We simply carry the scars of the ‘Turks’ ax on our backs. We naturally shield ourselves when these scars begin to ‘burn’ whenever we encounter words and attitudes that resonate with this stereotype.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 12, 2012 at 11:52 am //

      Tokado, let’s be honest here. There is an element of Turkish society dedicated to denying and distorting the history of the Armenians in Asia Minor. It is not inaccurate or insulting to refer to these Turks as ‘Turkish denialists.’ It is a matter of fact. It doesn’t mean all Turks are denialists.

      It is never right to paint all members of a group with one brush. Perhaps you are no more the ‘denialist Turk’, than I am the ‘aggressive diasporan Armenian.’ Where do we (the collective ‘we’) go from here?

  83. Of course, Murat,

    Silly us, Armenians, together with with Greeks, Assyrians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Arabs and others. How ungrateful is it of us not to appreciate that Seljuk and Ottoman Turks brought peace, tranquility, reverence, fraternity, and equality to the nations they ruthlessly invaded and colonized. How can we not understand that their military invasions of Cyprus, Asia Minor, Middle East, and Northern Africa from the steppes of Central Asia were a blessing for all the native people? What would we do without Turkic invaders and colonizers? How can we be so small-minded not to understand that intrusion into the territories of other peoples and their subjugation into rayas and millets was a well-meaning measure by the affectionate, loving Ottoman Turks? Their love was so great that in the end they just wiped the h*** off many of those people, and for their own good.

    It is interesting that no Turk on these pages, none, even RVDV who appears to be the most rational of them, ever questioned: What did Turks have to do with conquering Cyprus in the first place? Who invited them there? Where have they come from to the broader region? Is it their business whether or not Venetians had “sucked Cyprus dry” or whether “the Greek population had status of slaves, owned nothing and suffered under the Venetian yoke”? Who asked the Turks to “liberate them from the Catholics”?

    “These are the real facts in our real universe”, cynically says Murat. If tomorrow other nations will “liberate” Turks causing disintegration of your artificial state, will you consider this as a real fact in our real universe just like you cynically portray invasions, occupations, and destruction of others by your ancestors as blessing?

    • What’s there to question? I don’t question why the Romans took over the Mediterranean. Cyprus is in a strategic location, one you can make a profit on, and the Ottomans felt they could defeat the Venetians and take it over. The Venetians conquered Cyprus with likely the same intentions and goals. No need to over analyze the situation. Similarly you could ask what the Venetians were doing so very far from Venice and Italy, and you could ask “who invited the Venetians?” For a long time it was the same deal, different management, for the Cypriots.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 12, 2012 at 9:11 am //

      Callous ‘might makes right’ attitude, lacking the sense of morality that makes us human. Is this fatalism? Is humanity locked into an endless cycle of conquests? Can nations, through the actions of individuals, do nothing to change this cycle? Can humanity not evolve? Can the greedy beast not subdue itself, or be subdued, with a growing sense of compassion and ethics? Can a ‘Turk’ un-Turk himself?

  84. You know, Murat: Savage butchering of up to 300,000 Armenians by the Great Assassin Sultan Abbulhamid II and the genocidal extermination of 1.5 million Armenians and forced deportation of another 500,000 by the Young Turks are also real facts in our real universe

    Are you willing to join us and the civilized world in the millennium in condemning the heinous crimes of your nation?

    • Flaunt ignorance?Are you talking about yourself?You should have commented this one below your above feudal comment.We all knew it was coming.The same old parrot repetition which we have dealt with for hundreds of times.We have no intentions whatsoever to divert the Armenian Genocide denial subject to other peoples’ history which has absolutely nothing to do with us & more than 50% of it has to do with your Ottoman ancestors’ brutal,murderous history whether Circassian,Balkan or Crimean.
      When you see that you have nowhere to go or you see other Turks accepting the Genocide you come up with same.
      I’ve asked this question before:
      Why are you still here on these pages for years now?Is it to convince us/the Armenians that there was no Genocide?Or to convince Genocide accepting visiting Turks that there was no Genocide?Have you ever learnt anything over the past few years from these pages?

  85. Really, Murat
    I know something about Roman history and much more about the Tsarist or Stalinist Russian history. Invasions, wars, expansion, subjugation, murders, starvation, colonization,civil unrest, revolutions, purges, gulags — pick any of these events or crimes for the periods of history you’ve mentioned. But in none of them had the central government ordered forced deportations and mass physical extermination aimed at a particular ethnic, national, religious, and racial group. However deep you dig up, you won’t find anything close that the legal definition of genocide offers, either in the Roman Empire or the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union.

    • I have no idea why some people like to flaunt their ignorance. Look up great Circassion Migration. It is one of the most massive ethnic cleansings in history, ranks almost up there with ethnic cleaning of Muslims (not all Turks!) from the Balkans. Russian ethnic cleansing of Caucuses continues to this day. Many like myself in Turkey trace their roots to that region, from where our ancestors have been rooted out. Even Tolstoy wrote about it when he had a chance to observe what was happening when he was a young officer in Czarist army. Hadji Murad, in my opinion his best writing, is no fiction. You know what Russians did to Crimeans? You should look that up to. Or Germans they got hold of? Germany has repatriated very recently large numbers of Germans from Kazahhistan of all places. Well, theirs is a special blood as we know. Now one can also bring up what Spaniards did in Central America, or what Americans did to Indians, or what Japanese did to Chinese and Koreans or what US did to their own Japanese as recently as WWII, but I was hoping not to need to dig these well known bits of history. I was wrong it seems.

      I mention these not in anger or with ill feelings, it is simply history, well, more accurately, facts. I invite all to this century and where there is real suffering, inequality, discrimination, hate, destruction of culture, xenophobia and where one can actually make a difference instead of wasting time and money on re-writing history and carrying on medieval blood feuds, poisoning future generations.

  86. What’s there to question? I’ll tell you, RVDV. Romans in the Mediterranean or Venetians in the Cyprus–while conquests in both cases–were parts and parcel of inter-state skirmishes and feudal conflicts within the confines of ONE broader region. Venice is not “far away” from Cyprus, by the way, it’s a part of the Mediterranean region. Romans, Venetians, Greek Cypriots, etc. represented indigenous peoples of that region. Turks, on the other hand, were clearly outsiders who invaded the region from a place some 3000 miles away: sheer intruders into the region, terrorizing warriors and colonizers. Thus, my question: what alien Turks have to do with the domestic skirmishes and conflicts of the nations that comprised a specific region? Who asked them to impose a “different management” on Cyprus or elsewhere? Am I making myself understood?

  87. “Can a ‘Turk’ un-Turk himself?” —Boyajian, watch out, there’s a gentleman here for whose overegotist psyche such otherwise innocuous expressions may sound racist.

    RVDV, while you do your best at being balanced and coherent, and I appreciate it, your rationale is sometimes flawed by making arguments taken out of the context. Regarding Cyprus, for example, you start with the 16th century (Turko-Venetian war), but fail to consider the cause of events, i.e. how did the Turks appear in Cyprus or the broader region? Hint: consider the 11th century and the intrusion of the Seljuks. How, in your view, would the native peoples view these intrusions?

    • It’s OK Berch:

      I believe Dr. Boyajian has accepted the case of the gentleman for professional evaluation. {“…. He represents a certain mindset that I am interested in learning more about.”}

      Doctor-patient relationship takes precedence in this case: one’s Doctor is allowed to say things nobody else can: it’s for one’s own benefit.

    • I don’t understand what the Seljuk invasion, I said it, invasion, has to do with an event that took place 400 years later with a different group of Turks (the Ottomans). And if you look at my reply to Paul I talk about strategic location and profitability. It was an invasion based on greed and expansionism. I’m not overlooking Manzikert 1070 but there’s not a whole lot to say about it. No one can deny it was an invasion.

  88. Tokado,

    ”One cannot say that he/she doesn’t hate Turks, and use the word Turk as an insult.”

    This one sentence puzzled me so much that I decided to respond.

    How can a word ”Turk” be used as an insult, unless a negative adjective is attached to the word Turk? Your comment on ”Turkoglu” is surprising too.

    Do you think you can insult me if you call me Armenian? You can capitalize it, you can use it 10 times in one sentence, you can call me Sellayan but I do not find it insulting. Even when Necati calls us Ermeni people I do not find it insulting. I do not like it because it is a Turkish word and many of us do not speak Turkish but in no way I can think it insulting.

    I think for some reason, perhaps because of history, you became sensitive to the usage of word-Turk.

    When I say I am Armenian, it puts a smile on the faces of Greeks, Cyprots, Iranians Bulgarians, Serbs, Russians and they show a very warm welcome just because I am Armenian. I do not think it would be the same for Turks.

    • “How can a word ”Turk” be used as an insult, unless a negative adjective is attached to the word Turk? ”

      I’m sorry I’ve explained this a couple of times before. One last time; Yes I do know the word Turk alone is of course not an insult. But some of your compatriots attach it to insulting adjectives and even use it as an insulting adjective.

      “Your comment on ”Turkoglu” is surprising too”

      What’s surprising about it?

      I am not sensitive about the usage of the word Turk. But I do not like it when one uses it as an adjective for trying to insult someone. I don’t think that it is an insult, but he/she thinks that it is. That bothers me.

      “When I say I am Armenian, it puts a smile on the faces of Greeks, Cyprots, Iranians Bulgarians, Serbs, Russians and they show a very warm welcome just because I am Armenian. I do not think it would be the same for Turks.”

      The same happens to me when I say I am a Turk too.I think people are openminded enough to not stick on the stereotypes, and welcome one as a neighbor sharing the same cultural background.

    • Tokado,

      What adjective was attached to the word Turk exactly? I do not recall anyone attaching any adjective to the word Turk and using it to describe or refer to THE WHOLE Turkish nation. People do use “denialist Turk” but that refers to ones who deny the Armenian genocide/Christian genocide and mass theft that was done by Ottoman and successor Turkish government.

      I think deep inside you (by you I mean majority of Turks), you know what your nation has done to so many ethnic groups and you became sensitive to the usage of word Turk by those nations. That is why when Berch is generalizing something about Turks, you accuse him of being as racist. In reality there is no racism at all. But you keep calling it racism. That is not fair and very insulting as well. But do you really care? Calling someone racist is far worse than calling someone denialist.

      No one said that all Turks are bad. I met brilliant Turks in my life who I like very much. And I always say that at personal level nothing matters but people’s personality.

      But let as admit that your government’s hypocrisy, denial and rhetoric does not live a good impression on many people and nations. Just the fact, that the head of your country when talks about Armenia the first thing is Karabakh, conveniently forgetting about the occupation of the North Cyprus, tells a lot about your country. Just a few months ago all Armenians all of a sudden became bastards in Turkey and we were notified to expect Turkish “guests” who would suddenly descend on Yerevan at night. You think Armenians in Armenia, and especially in Yerevan, who never saw a Turk in their lives and just heard from their grandparents how they ran for their lives to Armenia while the rest of their family were killed, felt good about Turkish nation?

  89. RVDV:

    Why? When you say ‘B’ aren’t you supposed to say ‘A’, too? Who are the Ottomans? Are they not the descendants of Seljuks? What do you mean by “a different group of Turks (the Ottomans)”? How are they different? Did Ottomans fell down from the Moon? With the same token you may end up calling Ittihadists or Kemalists “a different group of Turks”. For us, it’s the same ilk that had developed over time from Manzikert to Cyprus to the Armenian Genocide. You concentrate on the 16th century skipping the fact that those who took over Cyprus from Venetians or Asia Minor from Armenians were originally intruders to the region. What justification for invasion can there be in the first place?

    • What justification for invasion can there be in the first place?

      Greed. I feel like we’re going in circles. Greed and expansionism. That was the reason, not a justification.

    • Oh, and props on the new name. I like it, B, simple and confident. respect.

  90. Murat
    First of all, it is repugnant to find justification for the crime of your nation by means of comparing it with other crimes committed by other nations. Do not try to dilute your nation’s crime by suggesting that many other nations have committed the crime of genocide. No, very few have, and Turks are one of them.

    Secondly, each of the crimes has its specific denomination. Yes, Circassians were expelled from their homeland by the Russians at the end of the Russo-Caucasian War, which by its manner of suppression can be denoted as ethnic cleansing. Many deportees perished during the process. Circassians call it genocide, but it’s not recognized by the world as such. Georgia, recently, out of anti-Russian political considerations, has recognized it as such, but no other country has. Perhaps, the fact that the expulsion of Circassians occurred during a war prevents the international community to admit that it was genocide. As for ethnic cleansing of Muslims from the Balkans, any human suffering is regrettable, but Turks and Turkophiles oftentimes forget that (a)Muslims were aliens in the Balkans and colonizers to the native peoples, a by-product of the Ottoman colonial expansion; (b)that this fact triggered national liberation movements throughout the Balkans; and (c)that there were Balkan Wars going on at the time. The situation with the Armenians was wholly different. Armenians were not at war with the Turks.

    I know what Russians did to the Crimean Tartars. They relocated them. But then, again, Stalin regime did this to many other Soviet peoples: Volga Germans, Jews, etc.

    About what Spaniards did in Central America or what Americans did to Indians or what Japanese did to Chinese and Koreans or what US did to their own Japanese during WWII, so many comments were posted explaining the peripheral nature of these cases to the legal definition of genocide, that I don’t even want to waste space in this thread. These are not simply history; they are crimes for which perpetrators have offered apologies in one form or the other. Germans to the Jews, Americans to the American Indian, Russians for the Stalinist purges, Japanese to the Chinese, Americans to their citizens of Japanese origin. Mind you, all these happened in this century to which you invite us. What you do is you play ostrich and want genocide victims to do the same. Ain’t gonna happen.

    P.S. The genocide of Armenians happened in the 20th century. Thus, by chronology and definition it cannot be a “medieval blood feud”. You don’t wanna poison future generations? Fine. Join those Turks who wish to cleanse themselves from the stigma of genocide perpetrator nation. Offer an apology to Armenians and cleanse yourself and your future generations.

    • You start with saying hat nothing can justify genocide, and then spend paragraphs explaining the “special” circumstances which where it could be excused or understood, or a matter of mislabeling. Luckily, I am used to this sort of distortion and contradictions.

      My response was to a claim that Turks were so unique and in a class by themselves, different all other people in history when it comes to what they have done to Armenians. As you have also proven, not exactly true. You have skipped over Karabag, but I understand ;)

      Armenians were not at war with Turks? Now here is a piece of news. Ottoman cities were falling to Armenians, they were fielding regular troops and generals, fedayeen armed with the most moders weapons and have declared their desire to establish Greater Armenia where they were a minority, but you call this, what, “a failure to communicate”? No wonder you and ostrich are so close!

    • Murat,

      ”Armenians were not at war with Turks? Now here is a piece of news. Ottoman cities were falling to Armenians, they were fielding regular troops and generals, fedayeen armed with the most moders weapons and have declared their desire to establish Greater Armenia where they were a minority, but you call this, what, “a failure to communicate”? No wonder you and ostrich are so close!”

      You say Armenians had the most MODERN WEAPONS? Your state did not tell you the whole story. Actually, Armenians secretly had developed nukes and were about to nuke the Ottoman empire that is why Ottoman Turks were ”forced” to exterminate Armenians. You can tell this to your friends just do not write it in your history books.

  91. avatar john the turk // May 13, 2012 at 3:36 am // Reply

    Sella
    I will give you a secret about Turks. As you said we are sensitive about being called Turk as we want to forget the Armenian genocide, Asyrian, Greek. Kurdish and other genocides that I can not remember at the moment. But unfortunately, you keep reminding these horrendous crimes that our forefathers and mothers committed and benefited the fruit of these genocides.

    • Sensitive Turkish cowboy john the vain,go to your christian roots & dwell in your secret stolen luxuries of Armenians.Don’t come here not to be reminded.

  92. avatar ragnar naess // May 13, 2012 at 3:25 pm // Reply

    serko
    I have discussed these questions fairly extensively in earlier debates here in AW, and want to make some comments.
    first. I agree with you that Turkey should answer more directly to the charge of genocide, and not make what happened in other places as a part of an answer. But I am not convinced that this is what Murat is doing. He may equally well be commenting on the usula hierarchization of crimes, by force of which there is a competition for recognition of crimes committed against one’s own group to qualify as genocide, and hence a reluctance to admit that other groups also suffered genocide.

    But then you write:
    Secondly, each of the crimes has its specific denomination.
    comment:
    These denominations are not mutually exclusive. Genocide may according to the definition be part of an ethnic cleansing.ICTY ruled that Srebrenica was a case of genocide, but evidently there was also ethnic cleansing going on. The genocide was part of an ethnic cleansing. So classifying the Cicrcassian case as ethnic cleansing does not exclude the possibility thai it might also qualify as genocide.
    Then you write:
    As for ethnic cleansing of Muslims from the Balkans, any human suffering is regrettable, but Turks and Turkophiles oftentimes forget that (a)Muslims were aliens in the Balkans and colonizers to the native peoples, a by-product of the Ottoman colonial expansion; (b)that this fact triggered national liberation movements throughout the Balkans; and (c)that there were Balkan Wars going on at the time. The situation with the Armenians was wholly different. Armenians were not at war with the Turks.
    Comment:
    I find this very misleading if the question is about the application of the term genocide or not. That is if one uses the defintion and precedents of international law, to the extent that I know it. The fact of people being colonisers or colonised has no bearing on the applicaton of the definition of genocide. Whether any of the acts specified in the definition of genocide are done in a war situation or not is also not per se relevant.

    I doubt that situations can ble classified in mutually exclusive denominations according to international law the way you seem to suggest. But then maybe I misunderstand you.

    I know what Russians did to the Crimean Tartars. They relocated them. But then, again, Stalin regime did this to many other Soviet peoples: Volga Germans, Jews, etc.

    About what Spaniards did in Central America or what Americans did to Indians or what Japanese did to Chinese and Koreans or what US did to their own Japanese during WWII, so many comments were posted explaining the peripheral nature of these cases to the legal definition of genocide, that I don’t even want to waste space in this thread. These are not simply history; they are crimes for which perpetrators have offered apologies in one form or the other. Germans to the Jews, Americans to the American Indian, Russians for the Stalinist purges, Japanese to the Chinese, Americans to their citizens of Japanese origin. Mind you, all these happened in this century to which you invite us. What you do is you play ostrich and want genocide victims to do the same. Ain’t gonna happen.

    P.S. The genocide of Armenians happened in the 20th century. Thus, by chronology and definition it cannot be a “medieval blood feud”. You don’t wanna poison future generations? Fine. Join those Turks who wish to cleanse themselves from the stigma of genocide perpetrator nation. Offer an apology to Armenians and cleanse yourself and your future generations.

  93. avatar ragnar naess // May 13, 2012 at 3:28 pm // Reply

    sorry for the copy of your post being attached to my post

  94. of course, the Denialist Duo strikes again: Denialist Murat introduces the old standbys that have nothing to do with the AG, and then the Denialist ‘Professor’ from Norway chimes in with his obfuscations: right out of the “AG Denial Tricks and Techniques Manual”: Obfuscate, deny, dilute, deny, divert, deny, deflect, deny, misdirect, deny……
    (oh, did I use ‘deny’ more than once ? insincere apologies)

    Why don’t you remind our dear readers, Dear Denialist Professor, about:

    1. “Inbred” Armenians that you are so fond of ?
    2. The innocent, murdered Armenian children that were “disposed of” (like trash ?) by your favourite Ottoman Turk murderers ?

  95. No, it’s simpler than you think, Murat
    I start and finish with genocides for such internationally recognized cases as the genocide of Armenians and finish with cases that fall under the categories of ethnic cleansing, mass relocations, colonization, war atrocities, etc. For each of these cases, it shall be repeated, certain circumstances exist based on which experts and scholars distinguish one case from the other and not dump all of them in one pile in order to dilute the significance of the crime of genocide and juxtapose it with the crimes other than genocides. You call it distortion? I call it precision.

    Where have I claimed that Turks were “unique” when it comes to what they have done to Armenians? I said a few nations have committed genocides and Turks are one of them. Is being one of them means you unique?

    What is it that was skipped over Artsakh (Karabakh) self-determination war that you understand and I don’t?

    About Armenians being “at war” with Turks, I understand that this is the most distortionist “trump card” that your state uses to justify mass physical annihilation of the Armenians, and all I have to do is to pity you for your inability or unwillingness, rather, to examine the issue in non-Turkish sources. Armenians were not a warring party by definition: they were citizens of the same state formation. A couple of groups for self-defense were created, yes. What do you expect Armenians to do if you try to put yourself in our shoes? How to defend Armenian-populated villages from constant pillages, pogroms, abductions, and murders by the Turkish, Kurdish, and Circassian armed bands? How to defend the people after witnessing the wholesale murder of up to 300,000 Armenians during the Hamidian massacres of 1894-96? In those years literally two Armenian political parties have become radicalized and in several cases resistances against loathed Ottoman empire took the form of national liberation struggle as was the case elsewhere in the empire from the Balkans to the Middle East. Does the existence of such groups make a whole ethnic minority a party to an interstate war? Is this a general Turkish mentality or you just happened to be one of the kind?

  96. ragnar naess
    I only contended that the cases that Murat brought were not recognized as genocides per se. Knowing the manners of denialist Turks, I suspect he was trying to minimize the significance of the Turkish crime by lumping atrocities from the four corners of the earth that inevitably happenned during wars or colonization to the same pack. This is a painfully familiar Turkish denialist behavior.

    About crimes having their specific denominations. Agree that, as in the case of Srebrenica, genocide can be accompanied by ethnic cleansing. Yet the Circassian relocations, etc. were not acknowledged as genocidal acts. The Circassian case generally falls under the category of ethnic cleansing only.

    Agree that the fact of people being colonizers or colonized has no bearing on the application of the definition of genocide. But my comment was about denialist Turks or Turkophiles conveniently forgetting that atrocities against Muslims in the Balkans, although regrettable, were part and parcel of a national liberation struggle of the colonized against the colonizers committed during interstate wars (e.g. Balkan Wars or Russo-Turkish Wars). My argument was to underscore the fact that the situation with the Armenians was wholly different: Armenians did not commit mass atrocities against the Turks nor were they a belligerent party during an interstate war. In other words, I tried to emphasize the backdrop against which the atrocities against the Balkan Muslims and the genocidal extermination of the Armenians were committed. Hope this clarifies my point.

    • avatar Boyajian // May 14, 2012 at 8:23 am //

      Serko, I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your style. Ego-free, honest, straight-forward, matter-of-fact. Please keep writing. We need your voice on this site.

  97. avatar john the turk // May 14, 2012 at 3:01 am // Reply

    serko
    take your matter to icj an show that murat is lying and your case is strong but i doubt you are brave enough to do that you rely on what this country said or done etc

    • John the Turk,

      And you think that this will not go to court eventually? Most likely it will. What Turks did to my nation will never be forgotten. I do not think Turkey will get away with butchering a whole nation and stealing everything that belonged to those people. I know that our world is everything but just but justice does prevails in this world from time to time.

  98. Please read the here below published today in Hurriyet.No need to say that USAK is a Turkish government funded organization & you can google it.Please pay attention to what rubbish it says about ARF in paragraph 4.
    François Hollande and the Turks
    MAXİME GAUİN
    There is a historical trend in the main Socialist leaders of France alternating their attitudes vis-à-vis the Turks, especially if the Armenian question is involved. Jean Jaurès (1859-1914) diffused the Armenian nationalist propaganda in the 1890s, in ignorance, then met the Young Turks and became, until his death, their loyal friend. The first years of François Mitterrand’s presidency were marked by a serious crisis (1981-1984), but it was very quickly resolved and followed by years (1985-2000) of good relations.

    However, this is perhaps the first time that the victory of a Socialist provokes both satisfaction and concern, from a Franco-Turkish perspective. For the Turks, the main sensitive points are: French awareness (or lack thereof) of Turkey’s growing importance; the Turkish candidacy for European Union membership; the cooperation against terrorism (chiefly the PKK); the situation of Turkish immigrants in France; and the Armenian question.

    Mr. Hollande understands the strategic and economic role of Turkey. He wrote in his book Le Rêve Français (The French Dream, 2011) that negotiations between the EU and Turkey must be “fairly” (loyalement) pursued, until their conclusion. He criticized Mr. Sarkozy several times for his radical opposition to Turkish candidacy. Despite the persistent ignorance of some Socialist leaders about the PKK, there is no reason to fear that the Franco-Turkish agreement against organized crime, signed in October 2011, will suffer. Mr. Hollande was elected on a program of national unity and reconciliation in a rejection of the anti-immigrant demagogy. He even promised to present a reform giving non-EU citizens the right to vote in municipal elections.

    Consequently, it is clear that only the Armenian question represents a serious subject of concern, which must be neither underestimated nor overestimated. Turkey and Turks are paying the cost of more than ten years (1997 until the late 2000s) of passivity and ineffectiveness vis-à-vis Mr. Hollande, ten years largely used by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) for its proper agenda. Even the staunch support of the ARF for the Nazis, or the terrorist tradition of this party, were not used as an argument for years. Turkey and Turks are also paying for the more than twenty years (from the beginning of 1990s to today) almost without translation of any scholarly work rebutting the “Armenian genocide” allegations into French. Regardless, is it too late? No.

    Among the close friends of Mr. Hollande, you have not only members of the ARF, but also several MPs who gave their signature to send the Boyer bill to the Constitutional Council. Mr. Sarkozy tried until the end to prevent these applications from being presented. Mr. Hollande eventually renounced the pressuring the MPs of his party, after a few days. Mr. Hollande’s recent speeches given to Armenian associations, in Marseille and Paris, were published only by Armenian websites, not by his campaign site or by the Socialist Party.

    The current situation of both national and European jurisprudence is another reason to be quite optimistic. The decision of the Constitutional Council destroying the Boyer bill was based on the principle of law, not a formal, secondary problem. It leaves very little possibility for a new attempt. The Court of Justice of the European Union decided in 2003 (first instance) and 2004 (appeal) that the European Parliament’s resolution regarding the Armenian “genocide” had no legal value. The European Parliament itself has reversed its views since 2007.

    In conclusion, a lot of work remains, but Mr. Sarkozy’s defeat most likely marks the beginning of a new spring in Franco-Turkish relations. A coordinated effort of information and education, which would neglect no issue, is needed and would be very fruitful.

    Maxime Gauin is a researcher at the International Strategic Research Organization (USAK) and a Ph.D. candidate at the Middle East Technical University Department of History.
    May/14/2012
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=449&nID=20634&NewsCatID=396

    • Virtuous & ValorousTiger:

      Maxime Gauin used to be a regular Denialist guest @AW. Hasn’t shown up lately.
      Some of us did battle with him @OCWeekly a couple of months ago . (Orange County SoCal). He was teaming up there with infamous Denialist Ergun Kirlikovali. (there is a concentration of Turkish community in that area of SoCal)

      There was an interesting article that mentioned Gauin in TodaysZaman in March 2012. Here are the relevant parts:

      {The report has also revealed that a news website, http://www.turquie-news.fr, which is popular among young Turks in the country, is administered by a French person who works for the French intelligence service.}
      {Sources told Today’s Zaman on condition of anonymity that the intelligence official in question is historian and researcher Maxime Gauin, who has written books against Armenian claims of genocide. He is currently an intern at the International Strategic Research Organization (USAK) in Ankara. Gauin earlier won a compensation case he filed against Movses Nisanyan, a member of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, who had accused him of being a collaborator of the “genocide.”}

      Not sure if the story in TZ was planted (by parties unknown), but this Gauin guy is a rabid Turcophile Anti-Armenian AG Denialist.
      The Turcohiles are giddy that Sarkozy lost: they are hoping that Hollande will let them into EU and participate in their AG Denial campaign.

      We have lots of work ahead of us.

    • Avery djan,thanks a million for your support.It seems the moderator has deleted my previous message.Please go to the HRT site & read the comments as there is one from infamous Kirlikovali.

    • VTiger:

      read all HDN comments. Glad they published lots of your posts; they are usually very stingy as to how many times one can post in a thread.

      you gave the Denialists a good battle there.

    • I think that Turkey’s bid to join EU will get to a normal course with the presidency of Hollande. However I don’t expect any difference between Sarkozy’s policy on the AG and Holland’s. It may be temporarily ignored but it will come again during the election times.

    • Avery,added some more.Please read them.

    • Avery please continue on reading & one of his shameful comments:
      ‘Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918.’
      A Frenchman more Turkophile than the staunchest denialist.

    • I am.

    • V Tiger,

      The guy is first of all an Armenophob and then a Turkophile. All his “academic” work is anti-Armenian propaganda: constantly searching for every minor detail that he can use to discredit the Armenian cause, intentionally taking it out of context, and turning a blind eye towards all other evidence that proves otherwise. It doesn’t matter how many times you brought it to his attention that the Armenian battalion was not doing a good job. He is not going to get it because it does not fit his agenda. Thanks for putting it there though for others to see.

      He is also suffering from some complex. He is unhappy that no one took notice of his stinky articles in the other Turkish-funded sources that he mentions in his Hurriyet comments to you. I bet he is checking ten times a day to see if anyone
      “respects” him enough to comment on his articles. Truely pathetic!

  99. avatar john the turk // May 14, 2012 at 11:09 am // Reply

    Sella
    You must be joking. What are you waiting to go to court? You will eventually go to court ? Do you know when this court was founded ? it was 1922. Get real and admit that you have failed for the obvious reason

    • John the Turk,

      I thought you would defend the cause of your Christian brothers and sisters that were killed by Ottoman Turks. After all you are carrying one of our Saint’s name and probably have some Christian blood.

      You keep asking when we are going to ICJ-I wonder if the reason why you asking is because you want to aid us by providing some information about 1915 that you heard from your great grandparents or some elderly Turks?

      Why are you in such a hurry? We are the victims, if we do not hurry up why do you?

    • Turkish government has set aside $25 million for ICC but the last minute resigned.Please read:
      Zeki Kuneralp, a former Turkish ambassador, had a different explanation, according to him “The liabilities of not publishing the historical documents outweigh the advantages.”
      They will be forced to open the ATASE which is the military archives which are still locked.
      Furthermore what’s the point when so many countries have recognized the Genocide.

  100. avatar gaytzag palandjian // May 14, 2012 at 5:12 pm // Reply

    Dear Sella,
    As long as the Armenians -Armenian peopl-plus nation9state Republics of Armenia and artsakh are there,you can rest assured that with further aid of Armenian Diaspora our CAUSE/*CASE will be attended to.
    First by us and then the International community.
    As to Lodging official claim at the ICJ and similar instances ,it is only a matter of time when our Int´l attorneys will take that up too.
    Main thrust though is THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE!!! as a whole everywhere.Decided and determind to Claim what was ours and DAMAGES SUSTAINED.Especillaity Blood money!!!! to begin with…..

  101. From the UN website regarding the ICJ:

    “The States concerned (Turkey in this case) must also have access to the Court and have accepted its jurisdiction, in other words they must CONSENT to the Court”s considering the dispute in question. This is a fundamental principle governing the settlement of international disputes, States being sovereign and free to choose the methods of resolving their disputes.”

    Why on earth would Turkey consent to a trial? The government may be denialists, but they aren’t stupid.

    There are contentious cases which ARE binding and require consent of both parties, and advisory opinions- which I do not believe are binding.

  102. avatar john the turk // May 15, 2012 at 2:17 am // Reply

    Avery
    Turkey/Turks are realistic enough to understand that the joining the EU for Turkey is now a pipe dream. Being realistic is one of the major difference between Armenians and Turks. There are many reasons why Turkey won’t be admitted but the most important one is there is no more a Soviet union and unti muslim attitude of the EU is rising and muslim people of the EU are not aware that they are harming their interest by not condemning terrorism

  103. avatar ragnar naess // May 15, 2012 at 10:47 am // Reply

    serko
    good, we seem to be getting somewhere. I agree that the Turks e.g. in Bulgaria probably were seen by the majority population as colonisers or the decendants of colonisers. However the war in 1877-78 went much further than simply securing a victory for the Russian and Bulgarian forces and establishing – or re-establishing – the Bulgarian state. Close to one million Turks fled and some 250.000 died. These are crimes for which to my mind the Bulgarian governments have never apologized. The turks should have been allowed to stay as residents for several hundred years. Indeed the rights of Turks, now Bulgarian citizens, were shortly after the war guaranteed in the Bulgarian constitution. Whether this should also be called a genocide is a tricky question, but to my mind the most reasonable answer is yes, since the developments obviously contained many “Srebrenitsa”s. Turks and jews were massacred as such in no small numbers. The Turks in Bulgaria must also be considered a “protected” group according to the Convention. The acts of the Russian forces, the Cossacks and the Bulgarian paramilitary groups seems to have had as its goal to destroy – in whole or on part – this group by killing members of the group and by “deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”. The latter by making people flee headlong to safe their lives in the autumn and early winter of late 1877, which the perpetrators must have known must lead to mass death. Ther violence also was “part of a manifest pattern of conduct directed at the protected group”. True, Bulgarians were also targeted, but that is another question. I belive the same kind of reasoning might be applied to the Cicrcassian case. At least I never saw any convincing arguments against such a position. – But the sad part of this theme is if one category of victims holds against another category of victims that “we suffered genocide but you suffered ONLY crimes against humanity”.

    • ragnar naess
      I tend to think that the primary reason why the Balkan war of 1877-78 went further than simply securing a victory for the Russian and Bulgarian forces and re-establishing the Bulgarian state was that in April of 1876 the Turks brutally suppressed the Bulgarian uprising in which, according to various estimates, from 15,000 up to 100,000 innocent peasants were butchered. Events came to be known as “Bulgarian horrors” in the European press.

      I don’t understand the logic behind this: “The Turks should have been allowed to stay as residents for several hundred years.” If someone breaks in your house and settles there forcefully, will you allow him or his descendants to stay there for good?

      Neither the Balkan nor the Cicrcassian case qualifies as genocide by the scholarly community. More often than not I see war atrocities, ethnic cleansing, etc. when depicting these cases in the literature.

      I think why the Armenian case stands out as genocide except for other obvious reasons, is the fact that Armenians were not at war with the Turks and were subjects of the same state. The genocide definition doesn’t touch upon this, but experts and informed people can make a distinction.

    • Serko,

      I am sure, you noticed how easily and naturally the term “genocide” came out of Ragnar’s mouth when he discussed Balkan Turks and Circassians.

      I don’t know from how long ago you have been following his “contributions” to these pages, but he has never been able to utter the same word regarding Armenians. You know why? Because, he argues, there is no evidence of genocidal intent by Young Turks when they uprooted almost the entire Armenian population and ordered them to march to desert no food, water, or any other supplies, ordered them to be murdered, tortured, and humiliated.

      “Whether this should also be called a genocide is a tricky question, but to my mind the most reasonable answer is yes…” he says, because, you know, the genocidal intent is extremely clear when it comes to his buddies.

    • Of course Armenians were at war with Ottoman Turks. Their leaders have proudly stated this obvious fact to allies and their friends, fully expecting a reward! Why is this well documented and elephant-size truth so hard to face?

  104. avatar gaytzag palandjian // May 15, 2012 at 12:19 pm // Reply

    ADDENDUM to Sella,
    You see,I have undertaken a very tough task ,trying to by and by pursuade/convince our BBB’s(bishops,bosses and benefactors) which in an orerly fashion read as the clergy/spiritual leaders, politicalo chieftains and benefactors-also sort of bosses in their own right) said description is as to explain what ARA Baliozian(Canadian armenian writer intellectual) defines as to our present self elected or at the most by their friends,NOT PUBLIC.
    That:- We need TO CONSOLIDATE OUR….BOTH HUMAN RESOURCES,THAT ACCORDING TO ME RESIDES IN OUR HUGE COLLECTIVITIES OF OVER A 100,000 Professional Colleagues Assoc. members. Plus through them…
    OUR ECONOMIC POWER……………….A NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND…
    Only then we can throw our weight around so to say and take up important isseus such AS ORGANIZE A R E P A T R I A T I O N…
    then also fund all necessary programmes here in Diaspora to help make our Tahd stick!!!
    otherwise, rhetoric is free…all can get on band wagon and indeed PROPOSE OTHER SUCH plans.
    the Armenian is Centrifugal does not as a rule cooperate.Exceptions in thsoe above where,also not so HARMONIOUS,what is more they do not represent the thick of our people the PCA´s
    best Hasgcoghin

  105. avatar ragnar naess // May 17, 2012 at 2:12 pm // Reply

    Tiger
    there is an anormous amount of ATASE documents referred to in the literature. A Turkish historian told me in august 2011 that you can get documents from the military archives but that there is a lot of red tape. Serko, my answer to you did not get through re the applicaiton of the convention to various historical atrocities. Sella, your answer reagarding the ICC……..hmmm. but my motivation for following this debate diminishes if my posts dont get through

    • {” but my motivation for following this debate diminishes if my posts dont get through”}

      Oh Dear, Oh Dear: isn’t that truly tragic. ArmenianWeekly moderator is interfering with Turkophile Denialist Norwegian Professor’s “freedom” to disseminate Armenian Genocide denialist disinformation. How dare those “inbred” Armenians ?

      If they don’t behave we, proud Quisling disciples of Turkish Denialists, might “dispose of” more Armenians, if you get my drift, homes.

    • Ragnar,
      You do not expect me to take at face value what you & your unnamed Turkish historian friend have said.Especially when the historian is unnamed & God knows he could be working for USAK (ex. Maxime Gauim)or other Turkish government sponsored/backed organization.Well I believe I can say that he is lying or not telling you the truth & you are passing the news at face value without checking it.
      Please read this article by Markar Esayan titled ’1915, new ethics and new paradigm’ published in TZ on 23/12/2011, where he writes:’The General Staff Archives for Military History and the Strategic Studies Center (ATASE) are still closed. There is no use blocking the process, saying, “You open yours first, then I’ll open mine.”
      This is the site for the whole article & in case you cannot access it please inform so that I copy & paste it in whole.
      http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-266585-1915-new-ethics-and-new-paradigm.html

  106. avatar ragnar naess // May 17, 2012 at 2:33 pm // Reply

    sorry, I see my message got through after all. I must be getting old……

  107. avatar ragnar naess // May 18, 2012 at 2:01 am // Reply

    to correct misunderstandings which I by the way have done many times, Gina, there are no good reason to deny that Armenians suffered genocide. This is not a case of saying yes or no to “genocide” which is a much too simple procedure. — But if we talk about genocide in the juridical sense, we would like to specify perpetrators. Now we see that the ICTY deemed that Srebrenica was an example of genocide, and certainly there were instances in 1915-16 in which Armenians were targeted and killed, and killed as such. The killing of 2000 “christians” mentioned by Talaat in his message to dr. Reshid is one thing. But the evidence for a genocidal role of the ittihadist leadership is quite another thing. Even if we disagree about the conclusion, I believe we must concede that, Serko. There are too many telegrams from Istanbul ordering people not to harass Armenians, too much money used for food for Armenian deportees to substantiate a simple documentation that the intent simply was to kill Armenians.
    The reality which led to the gruesome consequences for Armenians is more complex. — On the other hand there are aspects of the ittihadist policies that indicate that the real aim was to produce a mortality that would take the lives of the majority of the Armenians, for instance the impossibility of settling people in the area designed. The area could not support 600.000 to one million new residents But historians disagree on the ittihadist intent regarding the Armenians, it is a myth that all agree on the genocide thesis and that all those who dont are cranks or paid by the Turks- – About the rising in Batak in Ottoman Bulgaria a lot has been written, and it may well be the “reason” why the Russians and the Bulgarian units went much further than just securing a territory for a new Bulgarian state. But this “reason” does not necessarily enter into the question of whether acts in the autumn of 1877 qualify as genocide. Now you may say that the “reason” demonstrates that the intent was ethnic cleansing, not genocide. But as we admitted earlier, genocide may well be an aspect of ethnic cleansing. The removal of the Armenians from Anatolia was also a case of ethnic cleansing. So I cannot follow your logic, unless you simply follow the “lawyers’ method” and cite all the arguments that bolster your case and not the counterarguments. — About the right of the Turks to stay: it follows the laws of domicile and the principles these laws are based on ,as nearly all countries today use it. These were people whose ancestors had stayed for centures in the same place I am very surprised that you cannot see this point. And the guaranteeing of the rights of Turks who still lived in Bulgaria shows that the Bulgarians of the time, the responsible ones who wanted Bulgaria to appear as a ivilized country in the eyes of the world, realized that Ottoman suzerainty is one thing, it may be removed, and the rights of residents is another

  108. avatar ragnar naess // May 18, 2012 at 2:20 am // Reply

    Serko, I agree that the fact that Armenians were Ottoman citizens is relevant for the perception of what happened as either “atrocities” or “extermination”. Atrocities against civilians committed by an invading army is – possibly – more commonly seen as something else. But for me it is more important that research – apart from McCarthy’s “Death and Exile” – has simply not been interested in describing and classifying atrocities committed against Ottoman Muslims. That is why the question is more open and the question whether these also were victims of genocide should be asked. If Srebrenica is the yardstick, what are we too conclude (unless we have a blueprint in our heads….)?

  109. Thank you, Gina. I was suspecting, but now I see what’s going on.

  110. avatar ragnar naess // May 19, 2012 at 5:28 am // Reply

    Vtiger
    I dont accept any statements on face value in any case, so in this we agree. I downloaded the article from “Todays Zaman” of 231211. Thank you. Fine article. Regarding ATASE documents they abound in the literature, so I dont think it can be a matter of the archive simply being close to researchers. But there may of course be a political screening of applicants. In the section on libraries and archives at the University of Bilkent ATASE is presented in the folllowing way:—–quote—
    The Askeri Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Başkanlığı Arşivi (ATASE) houses primary sources for research into the military history of the 19th and 20th centuries. The collections, composed of documents dealing with combat, operations, intelligence and logistical support, encompass all military operations that the Ottoman Empire engaged in after the Crimean War (1853-1856) and those in which the Turkish Armed Forces took part during the Republican era. With regard to the approximately 10 million documents in these rich collections, researchers are required to use the copies that are installed on CDs at the archive. Another important point for the researcher to bear in mind is that access permission to ATASE entails a security investigation which takes one to two months. For this, researchers should submit the following documents during the application process:

    an application form making clear the subject and aim of the study

    6 copies of the applicant’s identity card

    an academic reference taken from the institution to which the researcher belongs

    6 personnel information cards

    2 passport-size photographs.
    unquote
    The “security investigation” sounds strange because “Ottoman History” ended in 1923, and it is hardly reasonable to imagine that there may be security risks connected to the information provided. —-There were problems with acess to archives which had been said by authorities to have been opened by the beginning of the 90-ies. These were brought up by Ara Sarafian and other researchers, and after the year 2000 researchers like Kaiser and Sarafian reported that there were few problems, and the personnel acted professionally.
    But I will ask my Turkish contacts about the reasons behind the “security investigation”

    • Ragnar,
      Thank you.You can directly email Markar Esayan & ask him to clarify this point in his article & compare with your contacts’ information.For me open archives means open for all with no security hurdles & available on the web.

  111. avatar ragnar naess // May 19, 2012 at 5:36 am // Reply

    gina
    I am afraid the tendency to classify dialogue partners as supporters or enemies instead of answering arguments is in the end a liability for the Armenian cause. Possibily it functions as a means to galvanize the last cohorts of stalwart believers I understand your feelings, but you are still not able to cite me correctly. Instead you seem to want to classify me according to a stereotype of denier, or hidden denier. Well, you are free to do so……..

    • Ragnar Naess,

      Stay humble and stop pretending you understand more than you actually do. I never called or classified anyone as enemy, so do not put words into my mouth.

      And what “last cohorts of stalwart believers” are you talking about? I understand your feelings, too. Your imagination is taking you too far.

      Of course, you would like to give validity to your “academic” career, which would be non-existent without a debate about Armenian Genocide. So let’s pretend there is a real debate (in fact, there isn’t) and it’s actually growing so you can feel yourself important.

      The only reason you have any audience at all is because Turks need people like you to obscure history. And one does not have to be an academic of high caliber to serve the purpose. All you need is a desire to serve them. So you fit right in.

      FYI, there is no and there will be no cohorts of believers in the “genocide” of Balkan Turks and Circassians. So pick a different topic and stay humble.

  112. avatar ragnar naess // May 19, 2012 at 5:47 am // Reply

    serko
    you write…..”… that in April of 1876 the Turks brutally suppressed the Bulgarian uprising in which, according to various estimates, from 15,000 up to 100,000 innocent peasants were butchered. Events came to be known as “Bulgarian horrors” in the European press.unquote.
    Tetsuya Sahara of Meiji University wrote an article on this episode named “Victim oriented journalism and the Batak incident”. It is in a book on the Berlin Treaty and the Ottoman Empire. If I find the reference I will send it. The book should be printed by now.

  113. {I agree that the word “genocide” should not figure as prominently in the Armenian accusations against Turkey as it does. However, to simply scrap the word does not make sense. There is a real debate on whether a genocide occurred.} (Rangar Naess @Hurriyet 2011-9-12)

    Not a hidden Denier: a highly sophisticated, “new, improved” denier.
    Not crude like others, who outright deny the AG. One of the new, insidious, very dangerous breed that build elaborate explanations as to why what happened was a tragedy, but, you know “there was no Genocide; everyone else suffered, not just Armenians; including Turks; millions of Turks were also killed in the war” (…very clever: conflate war deaths with premeditated murder).

    Throw in everything unrelated, including the kitchen sink: Balkans, Bulgarians, Circassians, Klingons, the price of eggs in China.
    Keep repeating “Armenians suffered; Turks also suffered; everybody suffered; no Genocide; everybody suffered; wartime tragedy; no Genocide; everybody suffered…..”.

    Engage Armenians in endless and fruitless debates and discussions; dilute the uniqueness of the Genocide; form commissions to study something; deflect to peripheral issues…run out the clock.

    Exhibit A (above): read what the man wrote himself; decide if he is a Denier or not.

    • Avery,please continue on reading the Hurriyet

    • I don’t understand why you comment on these pages if your only goal is to phrase out if someone is a denialist or not.

    • ragnar naess,

      I agree with Avery completely.
      What happened to Turks in Balkans have no relation to Armenians.

      In 1915 April 24, the Turkish Gendarmerie collected Armenian intellectuals and murdered them. After cutting the head of Armenian nation they started to kill and deport the rest. Now Turkish citizens live in the houses of Armenians and use their properties. What do you have to say about this?

      As you know, millions of Germans died but it did not prevent Germans from recognizing Jewish Holocaust.

  114. avatar ragnar naess // May 19, 2012 at 1:02 pm // Reply

    serko
    the book is
    Yavuz, M. H., & Sluglett, P. (2011). War and diplomacy: The Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 and the Treaty of Berlin. Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press.

  115. avatar ragnar naess // May 19, 2012 at 1:24 pm // Reply

    I sent this mail today

    Dear Markar Esayan,
    in your very interesting article on a “New ethics and new paradigm” of december 23, 2011 you mention that the ATASE archive is not open. Now I see that there are a lot of references to ATASE documents in the literature on 1915. In the presentation of “Ottoman studies” in the website of Bilkent University, in the section on “Libraries and Archives”, it is indicated that the ATASE archive is open to researchers but that they have a “security control” that may take one to two months. I have the following questions: Is the information on the Bilkent University’s website misleading? Is there a political screening of researchers who want to use the archive? Do you have examples of this, or can you give me references to articles in which this question is treated?
    Best wishes
    Ragnar Naess
    Oslo, Norway

  116. There is an interesting new article @TZ written by a retired Turkish military judge. It is worth reading.

    The subtle slant of the article is to put the blame of the AG on Germany, at least in large part. (no problem: we can work with that; don’t look a gift horse in the mouth).
    But the interesting part is what is written between the lines, in the process of trying to shift the blame.

    Some excerpts:

    {“ These documents testify to the sheer magnitude of the forced relocation of Armenians for eventual destruction,”} Yep, it says the so-called “relocation for security purposes”, shouted about by the Denialist Drones, was a master plan for eventual destruction – Genocide.

    {“ Thousands of Christians who were forced to work in these battalions were not paid and were not provided with adequate nutrition, and they would lose their lives under hard climatic conditions. This compulsory military service model destroyed the most efficient groups of ethnic and non-Muslim minorities, and this model was further assisted by confiscations and compulsory taxes. Thus, the wealth of these minorities was confiscated, and their shops were looted.”}

    {“ As wealth and commerce were Turkified and Islamified,…”}: Wealth and commercial infrastructure created by Christians over centuries was simply stolen.

    {“ The government decided to confiscate all properties of those who were forced to migrate. Another method was to force Christians to become Muslims”}

    {“ and Turkish soldiers using cudgels upon women in advanced pregnancy..”}

    The language used in the article is mild compared to what we all know actually happened to pregnant Armenian women, for example.
    (much worse that simply hitting them with clubs). It is understandable: they can only write so much in a mainstream Turkish publication.
    But admitting – in a roundabout way – that the AG was planned and carried out is quite a step for a retired Turkish military judge.

    [German militarism’s connivance with Committee of Union and Progress
    by Ümit Kardaş]
    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-280848-german-militarisms-connivance-with-committee-of-union-and-progress-by-umit-kardas*.html

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