‘Your demands are our demands’: Turkish Human Rights Group Sends Letters to Etchmiadzin, Antelias
By Weekly Staff // Posted on April 24, 2012 in News // 270 Comments // 
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ISTANBUL, Turkey (A.W.)–The Committee Against Racism and Discrimination of the Istanbul Branch of the Human Rights Association sent letters today to the Catholicos of all Armenians Karekin II and the Catholicos of Cilicia Aram I, expressing solidarity with their demands for truth and justice. Below is the full text of both letters. For more details and continued coverage, visit our Facebook page.
A Turkish citizen holds the photograph of Armenian poet Daniel Varoujan, who was a victim of the Armenian Genocide. (Photo by Khatchig Mouradian)
His Holiness Aram I
Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia
Antelias, Lebanon
Your Holiness,
Today is the 24th of April, 2012, the 97th anniversary of the arrests of the Armenian intellectuals of Istanbul, which represents the beginning of the Armenian Genocide.
As a result of the process of genocide which began with the arrests in Istanbul on April 24, 1915, the Cilicia Catholicosate, which has not only been one of the spiritual centers of the historic Western Armenia for hundreds of years but which also represents its cultural and social identity, was forcibly displaced to Lebanon from the lands where it belonged. As defenders of human rights in Turkey, we are writing this letter to you to express our belief that it is in these lands that your Catholicosate belongs.
We are writing this letter to you in order to say that we bow in shame and in respect before the memory of the Ottoman Armenians who were massacred and dispossessed of all their riches, of all their richness of every kind, and effectively, even of the vestiges of their past. We are addressing our letter to you to declare that we remain the defenders of the usurped rights of the children and the grandchildren of the victims who survived massacre and were dispersed to all corners of the earth.
On Aug. 31, 2011, you sent a letter to the prime minister of the Republic of Turkey regarding the legislative changes concerning the restitution of some of the properties of non-Muslim foundations. You wrote, “The Armenian people will remain the rightful owners of the innumerable churches, hospitals, nursing homes, orphanages, cemeteries, and various religious and public properties confiscated by the Turkish state in the days of genocide in 1915.” You then added, “The Armenian people will remain the rightful owners of the houses, businesses, and properties of their ancestors who were victims of the genocide which was planned and perpetrated by the Ottoman-Turkish government.”
In your letter, you declared that the Armenian people will never abdicate their demands on Turkey for justice regarding the Armenian Genocide, and for the restoration of human rights. You wrote, “Dear Prime Minister, your declarations regarding justice and human rights will only be documented when you recognize the Armenian Genocide.”
We are writing this letter to address you and thus all the Armenians in the world, to state that your demands voice the requirements of the most basic human rights, and that they are also our demands.
On April 24, 2011, the same day that we were commemorating in Istanbul the 96th anniversary of the arrest of the Armenian intellectuals, Sevag Şahin Balıkçı was shot dead while on mandatory military duty in the Turkish Army in the city of Batman. Officials gave misleading information and manipulated witnesses in order to declare the death an accident. Further inspection and investigations have since pointed to premeditated murder. The murder of Sevag Şahin Balıkçı is evidence that there has been no life security for Armenians since 1915, that the process of genocide is ongoing, and that the denialism of 97 years perpetuates genocide.
In the 97th year of the process of genocide, which began with the arrests in Istanbul on April 24, 1915, and which included the annihilation of the Armenians as well as the Assyrians and Greeks of Anatolia, we are writing this letter to directly address you and the children of the victims of the Armenian Genocide around the world, whom you represent. We hereby declare our belief that it is only after the recognition of the genocide and the restitution of and/or compensation for the confiscated property of Armenians that justice can be established.
Your humble servants,
Human Rights Association, Istanbul Branch
Committee Against Racism and Discrimination
TURKEY
***
His All Holiness Karekin II
Catholicos of All Armenians
Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin
Your Holiness,
Today is the 24th of April, 2012, the 97th anniversary of the arrests of the Armenian intellectuals of Istanbul, which represents the beginning of the Armenian Genocide.
We are writing this letter to the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, which represents all the Armenians in the world, in order to say that we bow in shame and in respect before the memory of the Ottoman Armenians who were massacred and dispossessed of all their riches, of all their richness of every kind, and effectively, even of the vestiges of their past. We are addressing our letter to you to declare that we remain the defenders of the usurped rights of the children and the grandchildren of the victims who survived massacre and were dispersed to all corners of the earth.
The denial of the genocide by Turkey has lasted for 97 years, not only as a state policy but also as a socially pervasive view. We are writing this letter to you so as to declare that the denial of a crime against humanity, such as genocide, is a transgression of human rights, which itself leads to other transgressions and feeds enmity and hate.
You visited Istanbul in 2006 on the invitation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople. Your visit met with attacks against your person and your See by proponents of hate in Turkey, due especially to a reply you gave in the press conference. You said, “For our people, the genocide is not a matter of investigation; it is a factual event that took place, and must be recognized as such.” Your words were themselves subjected to an investigation under article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, whose legitimacy we contest in the most absolute terms.
We are writing you this letter to state that we share the views you voiced in the press conference in their entirety. As defenders of human rights, we deem the campaign against you by proponents of enmity and hate, as well as the investigation initiated by the Turkish judiciary, to be an attack against human rights.
On April 24, 2011, the same day that we were commemorating in Istanbul the 96th anniversary of the arrest of the Armenian intellectuals, Sevag Şahin Balıkçı was shot dead while on mandatory military duty in the city of Batman. Officials gave misleading information and manipulated witnesses in order to declare the death an accident. Further inspection and investigations have since pointed to premeditated murder. The murder of Sevag Şahin Balıkçı is evidence that there has been no life security for Armenians since 1915, that the process of genocide is ongoing, and that the denialism of 97 years perpetuates genocide.
In the 97th year of the process of genocide, which began with the arrests in Istanbul on April 24, 1915, and which included the annihilation of the Armenians as well as the Assyrians and Greeks of Anatolia, we are writing this letter to directly address you and the children of the victims of the Armenian Genocide around the world, whom you represent. We hereby declare our belief that it is only after the recognition of the genocide and the restitution of and/or compensation for the confiscated property of Armenians that justice can be established.
Truly yours,
Human Rights Association, Istanbul Branch
Committee Against Racism and Discrimination
Turkey
What a beautiful and compassionate move by are Turkish brothers and sisters. Well done.
I am so moved to know that there are such brave and compassionate Turks who are willing to forget social, legal and political pressure in order to stand in solidarity with Armenians. I applaud the Human Rights Association, Istanbul Branch
Committee Against Racism and Discrimination.
Thank you.We have suffered more than enough.The mass graves in my occupied homeland need proper burial.The massacred need peace.
Armen
It is a beautiful and compassionate move, indeed, but Turks, by definition, cannot be our “brothers and sisters”, even the most beautiful ones. We can admire some of them as courageous human beings, but they’re not our “brothers and sisters”. Our brothers and sisters are are our co-ethnics–contemporary ones as well as those who were savagely slaughtered by Ottoman Turks.
As a human being first, and an Armenian second, when I read this thoughtfully and sympathetically written letter, I appreciated the honesty and courage of the group. My spirits rose, and for a moment I wished our “century old nightmare would disappear, the truth would be acknowledged by the Turkish government, and justice would be served.” But knowing the Turkish successive governments and the Turkish extremists, I don’t think that this will happen soon. But by educating the Turks and working hard and persevering we may succeed. I congratulate and thank the Istanbul group for such an eloquent letter. Bkojian
Wow, this is so powerful. I am pleasantly surprised by this. If more letters like this are sent from more Turkish organizations and officials, genocide full recognition will occur shortly! 2015!
I pray for these people. My grandfather wanted freedom and equality in Turkey too. He was one of the first to die in the genocide. I pray for their safety.
Salute to the Human Rights Association, Istanbul Branch
Committee Against Racism and Discrimination
By your courage, compassion and the love for truth you set an example not only for your own people, but also for all human beings on earth. May your brave action serve as a harbinger of change and enlightment and replace the culture of hate in Turkey.
I myself, being the grandchild of one of the victims of the Armenian Genocide in 1915 , who constantly told us her sad story about how all her family members but for her and her brother, were taken away and massacred by the Ottoman Turks, her brother ending up in Argentina about who she knew years later, and her , ending up in Lebanon, am deeply impressed by the sympathetic words: “we bow in shame and in respect before the memory of the Armenians who were massacred”, and congratulate the committee for their courage and struggle against racism and discrimination.
My grandmother’s soul will rest in peace now…..
Hope is the motivator for action. We all find hope with the presence of young Armenians taking their place in generational succession. I find hope with the action of courageous Turkish citizens such as the Committee Against Racism and Discrimination of the Istanbul Branch of the Human Rights Association. We are thankful for their actions. They are the hope for Turkish society to free itself of the yoke of revisionism and denial. We must embrace their courage.
Setting aside that the letter to His Holiness Karekin II should have been listed first…
serko – I disagree. Given history, it is well known that many Turks are actually Armenians- they had no choice but to assimilate and through inter-marriage and such, they may in fact (or some of them may be) our brothers and sisters.
I find we focus too much on governments. If we get to the point where the Turkish people of today are sympathizing with and joining our cause, why do I need a government stamp of approval? The real battle is to convince PEOPLE of what took place – as they will go forth and teach the future generations.
This is a great article and I agree – hope and courage are key. Bravo to them. Getzehn.
Show your support for their actions and send them a thank you email, and tell everyone you know to do the same. Strength in numbers:
istanbul@ihd.org.tr
Many of my friends have already written letters to the organization to express their gratitude.
istanbul@ihd.org.tr for the contact e-mail.
To tell the truth I got goosebumps, I’m so happy to see a letter like this coming out of Istanbul. Just want to say thank you. 97years we haven’t lost our hope, and this makes me to believe and hope one day….
I congratulate IHD for taking a sometimes unpopular stand but necessary and principled one. I may not agree with all of their messege but I want them to be free to express it as they and others see fit. After all, Tehcir was a massive crime against humanity and beyond the suffering of countless, it also eradicated an ancient civilization from its homeland , a civilization that has been an integral and fundemental part of Turkish culture for over a millenium.
On the other hand I would much rather see greater focus on current human rights abuses where it is actually possible to make a difference. I would have liked to see IHD making just as showy and powerful statements about what is going on in Iran, Syria, Irak, Palestine, Cechneya and even Karabag.
If rememebrences and honoring victims and resolutions alone were a panacea, we would not have had any genocides or massive crimes against humanity in the last 50 years or so. Obviously that is not the case.
I disagree with you. Every country has the right to defend herself. It may be costly but you have to do it
The bravest of te brave.
Karanfil
I don’t understand what you disagree with. If it was said that all of the people in the Istanbul Branch of the Human Rights Association were of Armenian descent, I’d agree they’re our brothers and sisters. But to imply that the Turkish nation on the whole or even the most compassionate fragment of it is our “brothers and sisters” is absurd. I admire these Turkish petitioners as decent and courageous human beings, but, by definition, they are not, nor they can be, our “brothers and sisters”. By the way, the history knows not only the cases of Armenians’ natural assimilation and inter-marriages with the Turks, but to the greater and awful degree the widespread cases of forced marriages, abductions to harems, mass rapes, forced impregnations, Devshirme forced child collections, forced religious conversion, and other savage methods at assimilation—all typical to the Turks. Don’t forget that!
Just watched a video on youtube on our Turkish “brothers and sisters” mocking the Armenian grievers in front of the Turkish Embassy in Washington, DC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV9r5CFi7lc
Serko
Even if members of the Turkish Committee Against Racism and Discrimination are not assimilated Armenians or anyway associated with Armenians by blood, which Karanfil assumes they might be, they are our real brothers and sisters, more than, let’s say, the Armenian defunct funconaries who abuse their power and exploit our people causing them to emigrate from Armenia. The outcome of your judgment creterion is that the Armenian who prepared the list of his Armenian compatriots at the threshold of April 1915 and gave it to the Ottoman authorities to start their hunt of Armenian intellectuals could be considered our brother, because he was ‘by definition’ Armenian, but these Turkish noble citizens who risk their lives for our cause cannot be considered as such, because they are ‘by definition’ Turk.
I hope you see the evident untenability of your stand.
Arshag
I’m afraid I don’t see the evident untenability of my stand. Call these Turkish human rights defenders what they really and truly are: the bravest of the brave, noble, compassionate, remorseful, courageous, you name it—and I’ll agree with you or anyone else wholeheartedly. But by “brothers and sisters” we generally mean the pool of either our own flesh and blood or our co-religionists. Now, can some individuals in this pool be traitors and thugs? You bet they can. I’ve known an Armenian who was labeled “you’re worse than a Turk” (meaning, of course, a murderer Ottoman not a modern-day Turk). Every family has a black sheep. Regardless, he or she is my brother, by blood. Just like, in the matters of faith, everyone who admits Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is my brother, by faith.
P.S. “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” We will never know the circumstances in which an Armenian who prepared the list of his compatriots at the threshold of genocide for the Ottoman authorities was. We will never know what purpose the Turks might have lied to this Armenian. Knowing the Turkish slyness, it is safe to say that hardly they have told this Armenian to prepare the list so that all of his compatriots be savagely slaughtered afterwards.
Dear brothers and sisters, please don’t blame to Turkish people, they dont know what happent at 1915. We have been learning. You will see more Turkish people every year on the the streets, with pictures and flowers in their hand, with pain in their souls.
Hope to live together again,
These people are assimilated armenians..
Hamshen necati,you mean exactly like you right?
Vtigar,
i know what you mean and i already explained twice that you were wrong thinking of what you have in your mind but as always censored by your people.
Anyway, i will say just a sentence so that aW will not censor.
I am a Turk from the area called “Hemşin” in Rize /Turkey and i did not see anyone there speaking your language.
The only gift my Tengri gave me is my blood.
So you are not a Muslim? Never knew that gods donate blood.So you are not Hopa Hamshen then.What a pity.
Please listen to this masterpiece by Turks that we can associate with…
http://vimeo.com/40639618
Serko, I feel a warm brotherly and sisterly affinity to these Turks who stand with us and share in our demands. They are our brothers and sisters in spirit.
And to your point: Turks have been shown through scientific research to have DNA very similar to Armenians (because of forced intermarriages and conversions, etc). To a large degree, we are brothers.
Boyajian,
I too think it will be too generous to call those noble Turks brothers and sisters. Even though our DNA is similar, let’s not forget that it is a result of rape and forced marriages in most of the cases. Armenian women suffered horrendously in the hands of Turks throughout centuries. Contribution of Armenians to Turkish genetic pool severely compromised our genetic pool.
I wonder if Turks steal our songs because they think they are our ”brothers and sisters”?. What a shameless act for this young lady to steal the Armenian genocide song.
Sella, you are right about how much our women suffered and I detest the thought of rape and forced conversions. But it is true that some of those who express hatred for us may be our own cousins, unbeknownst to either of us! What an awful mess the Turks have made in Asia Minor. I know how unappealing it is to come to terms with the idea of a ‘compromised gene pool’, but I can’t reject anyone simply on the basis of their ethnic identity. That makes me no better than those who murdered our ancestors. My eyes swell a bit for those humanitarian Turks who say “our demands are their demands” and their bravery inspires hope and the desire within me for rapprochement with them.
Still, I agree with Gaytzag, that an offer to live together in Turkey is untenable. Armenians deserve compensation, reparation, restoration and sovereignty over their own territory—-and a full and accurate acknowledgment of the historical record. It is simply unjust that Turkey should continue to profit from the stolen assets and heritage of the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc. of Asia Minor. Their crime against humanity is too great to go unpunished.
Boyajia & Sella,since you are discussing the subject of our women…please read the following in yesterday’s TDZ written by Alin Ozinian:
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-278607-genocide-women-and-pain-by-alin-ozinian*.html
Boyajian,
“Still, I agree with Gaytzag, that an offer to live together in Turkey is untenable. Armenians deserve compensation, reparation, restoration and sovereignty over their own territory—-and a full and accurate acknowledgment of the historical record. It is simply unjust that Turkey should continue to profit from the stolen assets and heritage of the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc. of Asia Minor. Their crime against humanity is too great to go unpunished.”
Do you suggest that we give West to Greeks and East to Armenians, Kurds, and Assyrians? Where will the Turks go then? Do you have a place in mind that would accommodate 40-50million people?
Thank you VTiger for the link. I appreciate your effort to connect dots and keep us informed.
What a great question, Tokado. Let’s open this up to the group and see what solutions we can generate.
tokado,why not scatter around the world (with no killings involved of course,no rapes,kidnappings of children,no destruction of your cultural heritage & etc…) for the next 100 years similar to us, experience & feel living uprooted?
Imagine this scenario for few minutes & in case you have guts & patience for few hours…days may be?Years?A century?
Then come back to us & ask this same question.
Hmm I feel sarcasm, but I don’t see why.
Anyways, let’s find a relocation package if possible to Maldives or Caribbean
When?We need to co–ordinate so that no killings happen.
Tokado, yes VTiger is sarcastic, but he uses it as a way to make an important point about what often goes unappreciated by Turks who comment here. Did it also go ‘over your head ‘?
Many Turks seem to think very little about the pain of having been uprooted and scattered and robbed of homeland, and consequently they feel neither compassion for Armenians nor responsibility to address the crime that was done by their forefathers.
Turks!!!
I shall be very straightforward to you.Indeed we can forgive!!!!
BUT never Forget!!!!!
So understand our grief!!!
We can when your whole people nation/State,asks for forgiveness officially FORGIVE.But don´t expect us to forget.
Also GET THIS STRAIGHT TO.We don´t accept sugar coated offers such as ¨come we live together guila guila¨¨¨ nO AND NO!!!!
wE CAN LIVE AS TWO SOVERIGN NATIONS SIDE BY SIDE,in peace,but not if you have not compensated ,restored to us what was OURS.
WE DEMAND JUSTICE AND IT MUST BE SERVED COMPLETELY..
nmot just by coming and kneeling at Our Monument in Yerefvan…
Compensation ,reaprations and restitution!!!!
Then we can live AS ABOVE….
Sireli Gaitzag,let God forgive the Turks/Turkey,as I am having great difficulty in forgiving them.
Boyajian
Feeling a warm brotherly and sisterly affinity to these Turks is different from identifying them as “brothers and sisters”. It might be said, given France’s record, that the French to the greater degree stand with us and share in our demands. But I haven’t seen anyone calling them “brothers and sisters”. Nor the Uruguayans who had the courage to be the first nation recognizing the genocide. All of them, including these courageous Turkish human rights defenders, are people of good will and admirable courage, but hardly our “brothers and sisters” per se.
Re: DNA similarity. I cannot accept as brothers those who might have some genetic similarity knowing too well that this similarity has been achieved chiefly through the widespread cases of forced marriages, abductions to harems, mass rapes, impregnations, Devshirme collections, forced religious conversions, and other barbaric methods at Turkification. Knowing this, how can one simply state that “Turks have been shown through scientific research to have DNA very similar to Armenians”. Maybe, but at what costs to the Armenians, has it occurred to you?
Serko, of course I am aware that the shared DNA of Armenians and Turks came at a very high price for Armenians. And you make a good point about the French and the Uruguayans. Let’s not bicker among ourselves, but accept that the terms ‘brother and sister’ can have both figurative and literal meanings.
Murat:
First of all, why are you congratulating IHD on these pages? Why not write directly to them?
If you think IHD’s stand is necessary, then you shouldn’t conclude that “remembrances and honoring victims and resolutions alone are a panacea [from genocides]”. It is often said that had Turks remembered and honored victims of the Armenian genocide by offering them an apology, hardly would Hitler mentioned “who after all remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?” Had the perpetrators, the Turks, remembered and repented, Hitler wouldn’t have used our genocide as a justification for mass extermination of the Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, and others. Thus, it is truly necessary that we remember and honor victims of genocides remorsefully to prevent similar calamities in the future. Hitler’s example speaks for itself.
Re: “Tehcir was a massive crime against humanity and beyond the suffering of countless, it also eradicated an ancient civilization from its homeland, a civilization that has been an integral and fundamental part of Turkish culture for over a millennium.” Your confession is unacceptable. Not Tehcir but Ermeni Soykırımı—the Armenian Genocide–was a massive crime against humanity. Tehcir is only a concept of “population transfer”, forced relocation of a population from one region to another within a territory that the enforcing agent has the control. In the Armenian case it wasn’t merely a forced relocation to another region, it was relocation to graves, accompanied with mass murders, rapes, tortures, mutilations, burnings and burying alive, drowning, suffocations in the caves, and other forms of Ottoman Turkish barbarity. So if you now portray yourself as a repentant, please call spade a spade or remain silent.
Further, crime against humanity in particular against what nation? Sufferings of what nation? Eradication of what ancient civilization? Homeland of what nation?
Also, the Armenian civilization (if you meant it) has not been an “integral and fundamental part of Turkish culture for over a millennium”. The Armenian civilization has been stolen to be part of Turkish culture: architecture, music, cuisine, customs, etc. Nomadic Seljuk Turks had no such things when they invaded Asia Minor. Call things by their proper name or just remain silent.
gaytzag,
I can forgive them only AFTER they apologized and started compensations. If we forgive them before that, as Muslim Turks they won’t understand this purely Christian virtue of forgiveness and will most likely take it as a gesture of weakness. “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and tear you.” –-Jesus Christ, Matthew 7:6, Holy Bible
Look who’s here… tokado:
Not long ago, in another thread, “An Easter Message: A New Birth of the Armenian Spirit”, you accused Armenian posters as being racists looking for vengeance, whereas they simply expressed their justified anger over the genocidal extermination of their nation, the Turkish propensity to lessen and distort their crime, and the lack of justice for the victims. When you accused an Armenian poster that she is “trying to force [the Turks] to accept your opinions without listening to them”, I offered you to lay out your opinion on what you think had happened to the millions of indigenous Christian peoples of Asia Minor, most gruesomely, to the Armenians. As a cry-baby, you replied “I did but your moderator filtered it…” I suggested you to persist, doubting that my(?!) moderator could have filtered a comment containing no derogatory words in it. You never did. Now you popped up again in this thread. Do you care to lay out your opinion of the substance of the 1915 events so we listen to it or you’ll dodge the question again?
Boyajian, I’m not trying to bicker. I’m just trying to say that calling non-Armenians or non-Christians, even if they’re the noblest people on Earth, “brothers and sisters”, is an overshoot, a hyperbole.
Serko, my brother, I understand your positiion.
Boyajian:
A precaution. A Turk by the pen name ‘tokado’ loves asking questions, but beware: he never answers questions himself. Also, whenever an answer from an Armenian poster doesn’t sooth his denialist ears, he stigmatizes them as ‘racists’ and their observations as ‘generalizations’ and ‘hate’.
Source of precaution: see tokado’s comments in “An Easter Message: A New Birth of the Armenian Spirit”.
I answer questions from anybody but you because of your attitude. You know that very well. And now you try to built a side against me. Typical….
Thank you Berch, for the concern.
I think Tokado’s question above is a good one. If Turkey gives back what it took from Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, Armenians, what happens to the 40 to 50 million Turks?
I should add, I think this question reflects Turks greatest fear. I want to hear what others think about this. I have already said that I believe Armenians deserve sovereignty on their territories and I don ‘t think Turkey should be allowed to continue to benefit from the spoils of genocide. But what would justice look like for all parties involved? How would the geography be reconfigured? How much would Turks retain? Should they be deported to Der Zor? Of course that would never happen, but maybe with global warming Greenland could hold some possibilities?
Seriously, what would a just solution look like to others?
It is not really a fear because we all know that it is impossible. I think sovereignty on Western Armenia is a dream since the Turkish population is much greater in numbers than the entire Armenian population.
I was asking the question because I was surprised to see that you think of independent Western Armenia. It’s quite unrealistic, and can only achieved by war, which I’m sure nobody to Turk or Armenian would want such a thing.
Why punish the Eskimos?
Tokado,
Of course you are much greater in numbers after your forefathers successfully slaughtered Armenians/Christians in Western Armenia and elsewhere in Ottoman empire. Why do you think they slaughtered them to begin with? To steal their land and wealth and prevent anyone in the future claiming them back. So that their grandchildren will live in the stolen lands and houses peacefully. Was not it a nice try?
Let’s see how long Turkish citizens are going to live in Armenian houses and pray in church-converted-mosques. Only time will tell whether Armenians can get some land back from Turks or not.
You still not answer my question what happened to properties, houses, churches, schools, bank accounts of 1.5 million slaughtered and half million deported Armenians in Turkey? Is your country/Turkish citizens using them?
I second VTiger, lol comment of the day right there.
But really, post-Sevres Ottoman Empire still had land in central Anatolia (Ankara and surrounding regions) for Turks, so the Eskimos should be fine.
Oh I thought I did. Yeah probably Turkish citizens or Turkey are using them. So? I fail to see your point.
The point is that murdering people and stealing their houses and wealth and living in that very same houses, and using those properties would be considered crime in most of the countries. No matter such crime was committed today or 100 years ago. But I believe Turkey has her own convenient “laws” when it comes to punishing massive theft, murder and looting committed by her predecessor, Ottoman Empire.
One of the astonishing proof is article 301 and state financed programs to block The Armenian genocide recognition.
I hope you see the point now.
I though I should explain it to you in a more simplified way. The point is that Turkish citizens/Turkey cannot use something that does not belong to them.
As a Christian, I call all kinds of people from all parts of the world my brothers and sisters. If these people are moved by a love and truth in their hearts and compassion for our ancestors, then I can easily call them brothers and sisters in this sense as I would anybody else. Don’t forget, they are turning around to see things in a different way in order to do so.
Our people were the first to embrace Christianity. It may not be important to others. It is important to me that it teaches us that God is love. To do such an act requires something of love and the love of truth. It is a step, but a tremendous one and I want to recognize this as I must.
Janine,
I think what you’re saying is a misconception of the New Testament. For you as a Christian, all kinds of people from all parts of the world cannot be your brothers and sisters by faith, because being Christian means (look up, if you will, Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, and 1 Peter 4:16) ibeing followers of Jesus Christ because they believe in Christ and follow His example. These followers are our brothers and sisters. All other earnest, courageous, and compassionate people are what they are: earnest, courageous, and compassionate people, but not brothers and sisters in faith.
“And when [Christ] had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians […].” –Acts 11:26, New Testament, Holy Bible
May it be recalled, tokado, in case you typically and conveniently have “forgotten”, that you indicated but failed to offer your opinion to Sylva, not me in “An Easter Message: A New Birth of the Armenian Spirit”. Building sides against denialist, unrepentant, and unremorseful Turks like you is the least I can do for the memory of my relatives starved to death and burnt alive in the caves of Syrian desert Der Zor by your barbarian predecessors.
to the likes of Tokado:
There is no need for our compatriots like Berch to “build sides”. That statement in and of itself is an insult to us Armenians: we are on our side and against Denialists – By Default; no need to build anything.
Ever few months some new Denialist pops up @AW and we have to go back to ‘Educating Denialists 101′.
Berch has been handling the new, improved Denialist ‘Tokado’ this semester, so there was no need for the rest of to get involved.
Always remember Turk-oglar Tokados: we, Armenians, and righteous Turks & Turkish citizens are on the right side, and you Denialists are on the wrong side.
Berch: I did write my opinion. It’s not my problem if you don’t like it.
Avery: Check the entire site, find a place where I deny anything. You cannot ask for justice if you accuse others with no proof.
I agree with those who think that calling non-Armenian, non-Christian—yet honest and noble—people “brothers and sisters” is an overstatement. After all, let us not forget that these courageous Turkish activists recognize and offer apologies for the great crime their predecessors have committed. I can admire their bravery and appreciate their repentance and humanity, but in essence their move is not a “brotherly and sisterly” attitude so we can reciprocate. It is a recognition and apology for the crime committed by the nation they represent.
{tokado April 28, 2012
Avery: Check the entire site, find a place where I deny anything. You cannot ask for justice if you accuse others with no proof.}
[tokado April 13, 2012
My opinion is is a very simple attitude of “Let’s discuss”. For most of the Armenians, AG is a fact that cannot be discussed and everybody should accept without any doubts. For most of the Turks, the AG is a lie that cannot be discussed, and it should be refused immediately. That’s unfortunately a deadlock situation.
If we come to the issue of “denialist Turk”. Your intent is very visible. You don’t say “denialist”, but you say “denialist Turk”. You have a prejudice about Turks (like most of people here), and you use it as an adjective to counter “sincere”. Even your question to the moderator assumes that a Turk should probably lying about its post getting filtered.
I personally have never seen so much hate directed against my country and its people.]
[tokado April 14, 2012
Do you also have the same feelings for Aztecs, who sacrificed a million, for Romanians, who impailed thousands on people on sticks, or Romans who killed and slaved without mercy, or Americans who used nukes and poisoned generations. Every country has ugly moments in their history.]
(Avery note: right, the Armenian Genocide was just an ugly moment)
[tokado April 12, 2012
“I would like to see your reaction to a nation who killed over 75% of your people and stole 90% of their ancestral lands,”
Killing is of course wrong in any context. But the land was not stolen, is was conquered. And conquests are common in all history. Hittities did it, Urartus did it, and Turks too.]
Above are a some samples, Tokado: true, you do not deny the AG explicitly (none that I can find in the quick search), but the coded language is right there.
AG is not a fact, but debatable. Let’s not rush to judgement; let’s Discuss. Everybody did some evil deed: nothing special about the AG.
Right, “every country has ugly moments in their history”. Oh yeah, everybody conquered somebody, everybody killed, so what’s the big deal about the Armenian Genocide ? How many times have we seen those exact phrases from the Denialists on these pages ?
OK Tokado: put your cards on the table; let’s see it.
Do you , ethnic Turk Tokado, accept the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide committed by Ottoman Turks, and CUP Turks, and Kemalist Turks – unequivocally and without qualifications or reservations: Yes or No ?
Did your Turk ancestors commit a Genocide against indigenous Armenians (and Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks): YES or NO ?
Ok now you see that I didn’t deny anything.
“(Avery note: right, the Armenian Genocide was just an ugly moment)”
Those examples was in a different context. You can’t just quote without the context. It was answer about some torture thing done to Arabs by Turks. And indeed AG was an ugly moment. (note that you put the “just”)
OK let me ask this: do you Avery, ethnic Armenian, accept the scientific fact of the existence of Higgs Boson? Yes or No?
You’ll think that this is nonsense. Let me explain. This is not something that you can have an opinion. It is either a fact or not. There are rules for scientific experiments and once it’s proved it’s done. Will you be denialist if you say no? The same for the word “genocide”. It is a legal term that only a court rule can assign. It is not a matter of opinion. I don’t believe it appropriate to use the word genocide without a court decision.
The bottom line, and I will only tell this once before I leave this site, is that; I understand that this issue is an emotional issue for you. But in my opinion, it is not for Turks. The current generation of Turks didn’t cause this tragedy, neither their parents nor their grand parents. Do you feel guilty of the massacres committed by the Christian Crusaders? Of course not. That was long past. So we don’t feel guilty. Of course we are sorry for it, we feel sad for it. It is a tragedy that caused many lives. But it is no different that any massacres in other places in the world.
So your answers and responses to comments are purely emotional, which I cannot completely understand. I’m answering to an Arabian torture device by saying every country has a dark past. Yet you immediately interpret that I’m talking about AG. The same for the the matter of “opinion”. I tell that you should be more open minded and try to convince turkish community by discussing it. Yet you again say I am a denialist because I don’t curse Turkey or Turks.
Yes, I do deny the indiscussibility of your facts. How can something can be a fact if you can’t discuss it? Especially historical events, which are mainly based on subjective writings, and subjective stories. This is not math. Not everything is black or white. In history there are many shades of gray.
tokado April 12, 2012
“I would like to see your reaction to a nation who killed over 75% of your people and stole 90% of their ancestral lands,”
Killing is of course wrong in any context. But the land was not stolen, is was conquered. And conquests are common in all history. Hittities did it, Urartus did it, and Turks too.]
tokado,regarding “But the land was not stolen, is was conquered”…
The massacred Armenians even though they were conquered,de facto had become Ottoman citizens for 500 years,traveled under Ottoman documentation,who lived on their lands & paid their taxes to the conqueror!
Then what comes is ethnic cleansing – Genocide.
Your argument is poor with no leg to stand on.
VTiger, I remember having misinterpreted thethatquestion. I thought we were talking about the Ottoman expansion at the early stayes of the empire. But it was too late to remove my comment or change it.
Of course Armenians were citizens and the Ottoman state did an atrocity towards its own citizens. I personally find it a bigger crime than a genocide after a conquest (like american indians, or romans, etc…).
tokado: No you didn’t. Allow me to refresh your Turkish memory.
This was my question:
“What in your opinion, happened to the millions of indigenous Christians of Asia Minor? In particular, where are the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians of Van, Erzrum, Kharberd (Mamuretülaziz), Bitlis, Digranakerd (Diyarbekir), and Sebastia (Sivas)? Where are the Armenians of Constantinople, Adana, Zeitoun, Smyrna, Kars, and Ardahan?”
And this was your “answer”, so to speak:
“My opinion is a very simple attitude of “let’s discuss”. For most of the Armenians, AG is a fact that cannot be discussed and everybody should accept without any doubts. For most of the Turks, AG is a lie that cannot be discussed, and it should be refused immediately. That’s unfortunately a deadlock situation.”
If you, and all who post in this thread, see any remote resemblance of an opinion expressed with regards to my specific question, call me a liar. Otherwise, you may well qualify for one…
“What in your opinion, happened to the millions of indigenous Christians of Asia Minor? In particular, where are the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians of Van, Erzrum, Kharberd (Mamuretülaziz), Bitlis, Digranakerd (Diyarbekir), and Sebastia (Sivas)? Where are the Armenians of Constantinople, Adana, Zeitoun, Smyrna, Kars, and Ardahan?”
They died.
“And this was your “answer”, so to speak:”
That was my answer to someone. Not to you. Nor to your question.
“If you, and all who post in this thread, see any remote resemblance of an opinion expressed with regards to my specific question, call me a liar. Otherwise, you may well qualify for one…”
Thank you. You are very polite person. Your words are dripping politeness all the time.
As an acknowledger Turkish citizen of Armenian Genocide, who actively support truth about Armenian Genocide in every way, I just felt uneasy when finished to read comments on here.
Talking about genes, blood and debate on who are sisters/brothers shit, in a simple way, is just metadology of racism. What is your/our aim? Giving peace to who fell at 1915 and trying to make Turks more aware of this subject or acting like a government which only care about land and money? (Here, I agree with tokado. Building the Mec Eġeṙn’s value proposition on land and money is just make people denying it at first step.)
In Turkey, there are people who really care about OUR pain, tries spread the word in terms of humanitarian basis with highlighting seizure of Armenian properties. But when you come up with compensation and re-drawing borders, BAM! Our conversation goes to trash.
Maybe we, who defends Armenian Genocide, should really re-think about our communication behaviour, metadology and positioning of arguments. Because all I read here -except few, sorry- is not too different from Turkish nationalist jargon.
Sincerely,
A human who don’t give a single **** about nationality, studies advertisement in Izmir/Turkey, copy writer and atheist.
Tmid,
Armenian genocide recognition without compensation does not mean much to most of Armenians. It is very offensive when Turks say that.
Can you imagine if the ”criminal’ would declare that knowing that the court is going to put her in jail or force to pay whatever he/she stole makes his/her more reluctant to admit his/her crime? Do you think it is moral?
So, you think Armenians should agree that they have no ”demands” from Turkey. And hopefully your state will recognize the Armenian genocide? And then your state and your citizens should continue using Armenian properties, lands and show Armenian cultural treasures to tourists and make money or barbarically destroy them as your state have doing for almost 100 years?
Now why I am comparing Turkey with a criminal, because, until Turkey admits that her predecessor Ottoman empire committed genocide against Christians and Turkey illegally confiscated their wealth and properties and is illegally using them to this very day, Turkey is and will remain a criminal state to me.
“But when you come up with compensation and re-drawing borders, BAM! Our conversation goes to trash.”
How nice of you.Put yourself in our shoes & imagine…simple example…somebody comes & kills your family,takes over your house,farm,etc… & when you want to regain what’s yours tells you BAM.
Simply you have to understand that it is our right & we will pursue it with all means.On the contrary since you share our pain you should share the whole pain.
Since you write in English I presume that you are educated.Please refrain from using ‘f’ & ‘s’ words.We can communicate beautifully without being vulgar.
Yes, that makes perfect sense: a simple apology should suffice.
Why ask for more ? who does that these days ?
And if someone accidentally ran a red light in Izmir, smashed into your car, and you lost your legs – we are sure you would be satisfied with a simple apology for the fact that your life has changed forever, you may no longer be able to work and support yourself. You would not demand compensation: Riiight.
And if a bunch of criminals broke into your house, murdered most members of your family, stole all the wealth and property you had accumulated after years of hard work – a simple “sorry” from them should be more than enough. They can keep the house, your belongings, maybe “marry” one of the little sisters they did not murder. All you are asking for is simple apology: Yes ?
When Germany was ordered to pay reparation to Israel, a huge political debate in Israel broke out. Some MP believed to accept reparation would mean they forgive the Germans, and in exchange for money for the 6 million murdered Jews, Israel and Germany would be “even.” Something they claimed the Jewish people could and never should truly do. On these pages, I see debates about HOW MUCH money Armenians should get, and HOW MUCH land they should get. I don’t think any of them are bad people simply out to see their country get richer and bigger with disregard to the 1.5 million murdered, but it sends that message to those in Turkey who are more than willing to deny. The idea that these people just want a quick buck.
“Maybe we, who defends Armenian Genocide, should really re-think about our communication behaviour, metadology and positioning of arguments”
Maybe, land, property, and monetary compensation need to be separate from Genocide recognition. Make the message clear, to denialists- it’s already clear, that what you really want is justice. Appeal to their humanity- yes Armenians we have that. Then, if and eventually when Turkey recognizes, THEN take your claims and demands to court- where you will have a much better chance of winning (like an unbeatable case).
But Tmid, you will they don’t take too kindly to suggestions by us Turks.
“And if someone accidentally ran a red light in Izmir, smashed into your car, and you lost your legs – we are sure you would be satisfied with a simple apology for the fact that your life has changed forever, you may no longer be able to work and support yourself. You would not demand compensation: Riiight.”
I am always puzzled with this analogy. I think the correct one should be:
And if someone accidentally ran a red light in Izmir 100 years ago, smashed into your great grand-father’s car, and he lost his legs…
In that case the claim for compensation doesn’t fit very well since the crime would be expired…
Can I ask everyone on this site …
How can you enjoy something doesn’t belong to you…
They don’t fill guilt using Armenian homes …furnitures …Gold…Diamonds…!!!
My friend in USA of Norwegian origin…She has a gold cross neckless on her chest…
I said this is typical Armenian cross made in Istanbul…
Her mother bought from a lady …From East Europe …
She doesn’t know her religion…But she said she was not Christian
I want to know how that Armenian cross reached Michigan…
No Armenian will sell the cross even reached starvation…!
Sylva
To a “new” Turk using the pen name Timid:
Exactly why talking about brothers and sisters by blood or by faith (couldn’t find any word on genes here, please kindly pinpoint unless you were smoking some really strong stuff) is sh** and is metadology (methodology, perhaps?) of racism? If this is racism, than Turkish support for their blood- and faith cousins AzerBEYjanis is what? If a simple debate on who can and who cannot be considered a brother or sister is racism, then near-total physical extermination of a particular nation based on which the term genocide (Greek for ‘killing of a race’) was invented, is what?
Justice for Armenians—as victims of genocide—includes an apology, reparations, and land restitution. As with any crime, repentance and punishment go hand in hand. A murderer cannot just say “Oops, I’m sorry” and get away with the crime. He would have to serve time in prison and pay a fine. Depending on the case, his property may be confiscated as well.
There is a segment in the Armenian Diasporas worldwide who would accept reparations and restitution without an apology, considering reparations and restitution as an apology. I, for one, am one of them. But hardly can one find an Armenian who’d accept an apology without reparations and restitution. After all, these was the habitat of our ancestors for millennia, long before the arrival of the Turks. They tilled the soil, kept farms, pastures, and orchards, looked after the cattle, built houses, community centers, religious and educational institutions, ran businesses, acquired wealth by means of hard work and despite heavy Turkish taxes, saved money in bank accounts, had insurance indemnities, created thousands of cultural and artistic edifices, maintained graveyards, served in the Turkish army and risked their lives in wars only to know that their families were being slaughtered by Turks at the same time. Finally, they gave the most precious thing–their innocent lives—during the genocide. The escapees were dispersed throughout the world struggling to maintain their Armenian identity in foreign environments. Almost all of their civilizational traces in the Armenian vilayets and Armenian-populated cities eradicated.
How can we accept just an apology for such a gargantuan loss? An apology will somehow soften our rightfully angry stand and pave the way for having good-neighborly relations with the Turks, but it cannot substitute the massive loss of life and ancient homeland.
“When Germany was ordered to pay reparation to Israel […]”.
RVDV, to state that Germany was only compelled to pay reparations without admitting the guilt, is an oversimplification. Of course, the Jewish diasporas worldwide and the international pressure at Nuremberg played a significant role, but to disregard the Germans’ ability to repent is unfair. Mind you, Germany admitted the crime 40 years after the Holocaust and the Nuremberg trials, in the late 1970s, when it was one of the richest and strongest nations in the world.
For me, a civilized nation is the one that has the ability to repent. This is also a Christian virtue: Jesus would forgive a wicked thief or a prostitute for their sins before he forgave a firm believer, because He understood that it was incomparably harder for a thief or a prostitute to confess and repent.
So in the 70s Germany readmitted genocide, this time without the Allies breathing down their neck? Didn’t know that, thanks for pointing that out. I have said it before, we Turks could learn a thing or two from the Germans.
You regard the ability to repent as a mark of civility. To me, the ability to repent is a part of what separates us humans from animals. It should be, note the should, should be a mark of humanity. To be honest, I’m more ashamed of those who have covered up the genocide for almost a 100 years, then those who actually committed it. I mean the Ottoman Empire was falling apart, there was a scramble to make a national identity for Turks to keep things together, and nothing pulls people together better than a common enemy. And alas there was a Christian minority that could be made into the scapegoat. And it didn’t hurt that they were among the wealthier of Ottoman citizens. A little ethnic and religious propaganda for the uneducated masses, and you have a recipe for disaster….. I can roughly explain WHY my ancestors committed genocide, but there’s no good answer to why we deny it… What can I say? Oh we umm… well we would like to keep what we took, territory, money, etc.. Or… well… we believe that since we went through the effort to kill them, we should keep what we took… With both “justifications” any neutral person would come to a conclusion that essentially my people are self-righteous assholes. And given the circumstances, I find it hard to argue against that conclusion.
A great documentary on Armenian genocide by Ottoman Turks made by Germans. Please, watch if you not watch it before.
I just deleted nearly an essay sized comment. So, I will try to be simple as possible.
Your arguments(!) are insulting. You want a change? Change yourself. Nothing gives you to right of insulting or educating people. Methadology or metadology, crime in Izmir. Really? I mean, do I look like stupid or you are acting like that? Please.
I just gave you an example from my experiences. I’m the one who told people there must be compensation. It would have easy to understand that if you read was my first comment without prejudicies.
“…but it sends that message to those in Turkey who are more than willing to deny. The idea that these people just want a quick buck.
Maybe, land, property, and monetary compensation need to be separate from Genocide recognition. Make the message clear, to denialists- it’s already clear, that what you really want is justice. Appeal to their humanity- yes Armenians we have that. Then, if and eventually when Turkey recognizes, THEN take your claims and demands to court- where you will have a much better chance of winning.”
Thanks. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT.
“But Tmid, you will they don’t take too kindly to suggestions by us Turks.”
I already understand. Even I feel bit sorry to being attacked by Armenian brothers/sisters. But this make me to think about “triggering factors” which is in this case Mec Eġeṙn.
Finally, let me ask you something. What kind of discrimination is this? What kind of anger and arrogance is this? I cannot defence Mec Eġeṙn because I’m so-called Turk? I hope there is a huge gap between who always says “turk, turk, turk” and who do not. Believe me it’s so irritating because I’m anarcocomunist. But that behaviour labels some of you in my mind as a racist with a hate speech. This behaviour does no good to our cause.
p.s: If I saw and define a thing as a shit, it makes that is a shit. Not makes me vulgar.
“Thanks. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT.”
I know that was what you meant. So did they. But then they couldn’t enjoy the pleasure of sticking it to you. I swear, it’s like recreation to bash Turks here. Most deserve it, but once it becomes a habit….
I agree with what you say. The big problem is the compensation issue, more precisely “giving lands”. I believe the Turkish economy is strong enough to provide the necessary compensation (15-20 billion $?). But understandably Turkey and most of its people have an automatic defense mechanism for everything that questions the national sovereignty. And since one of the compensation claims is about returning the lands to its owners it causes a problem. Also I believe it is often perceived as returning the lands to “Armenia” rather than Armenians.
I’m personally be happy to see my tax money going to the victims as a compensation rather than seeing it disappear in the pockets of our corrupted government.
Tmid, I read your comment few times & I understand some of your points very well & some not at all.
We are all here to exchange, discuss our different views as individual Armenians & Turks, which is beneficial compared to years back when there was no communication between us. Some comments by Armenians & Turks are hurtful, insulting, discriminating, arrogant & so on but at least we are communicating & letting know each other our views, opinions & experiences. Each side has its own story to tell & explain.
1.“…but it sends that message to those in Turkey who are more than willing to deny. The idea that these people just want a quick buck.”
Quick buck? Why quick buck? Are we asking for anything that was theirs/yours/Turkey’s or they/Turks/Turkey acquired what IS OURS by Genocide? Did we lose our 4000 years homeland & what we had built for thousands of years? Who acquired/confiscated & took over what we had? Did they pay for it? Did they work for it? Who’s getting the benefit of our belongings?
We read & hear it a lot that the Armenians are the ‘Jews’ of Caucasus & the Armenian Highlands aka nowadays Anatolia. The characterisation of the ‘Jew’ here can be a) industrious or b) the shrewd who blackmails, cheats …its meaning taken from Shakespeare’s ‘Merchant of Venice’….
Of course the characterization (b) is an insult & the used synonym ‘Jew’ is an insult for both the Jews & the Armenians as well.
The whole world characterizes us the Armenians as bright, intelligent, shrewd, successful & so on…I personally do not accept such easy & cheap descriptions. We do not differ from any other race or humans. We do not have different special genes which are smarter than others. The simplest explanation why Armenians seem more successful is because of their circumstances of being occupied over centuries, which has led us to be hard working, to try & be the best in our fields, concentrate on education, etc…
Today in Turkey ‘Ermeni’ is considered as an insult & a Turk that has Armenian blood is considered a much below par than a Turk who does not even know his exact bloodline. The worst part is that those who have traces of Armenian blood in them are the worst denialists & Armenian haters. How do these people sleep at night? From being millet-i sadika or a faithful nation we have become the worst insult. As if it was us the Armenians who have committed a Genocide against the Turks & it was the Turks who have lost their homeland. I am writing the above because I know there are denialists reading this comment & whether they like it or not they will automatically think & reflect about the discussed points, which I consider it important.
2.“Maybe, land, property, and monetary compensation need to be separate from Genocide recognition. Make the message clear, to denialists- it’s already clear, that what you really want is justice. Appeal to their humanity- yes Armenians we have that.
May be the above suggestion is right. But almost 100 years have passed & Turkey continues on denying. Yes we want justice & apology before anything else so that the souls of our massacred can rest. The massacred speak through us & we can never rest until we satisfy their demand of justice. Read what president Gul has said on the 27th of April 2012: “After the Republic was established, we avoided reopening old wounds so future generations would not inherit these pains. Unfortunately, the Armenian Diaspora has started to use this tragic event as a tool for preserving their identity and enhancing the feeling of solidarity between themselves since the 1960s.” How can we appeal to the Turkish humanity when its president says a big lie in front of the whole world?
A president is the reflecting image of his country… Should I continue?
3. “Then, if and eventually when Turkey recognizes, THEN take your claims and demands to court- where you will have a much better chance of winning.”
So we all agree here that Turkey does not recognize the Genocide because of our demands, the quick buck?
Please continue on expressing your opinions & ideas.
” I just deleted nearly an essay sized comment.”
Such a big loss for all readers @AW, particularly us Armenians.
Our world is poorer for having been deprived of your beautiful Turkish prose; lucid, well-formed logical arguments; precisely and seamlessly flowing sequiturs; staying refreshingly well above gutter language; and much, much more.
Well, maybe you can grace us with your pearls of wisdom on another occasion.
I believe it is not too forward for me to state – on behalf of my Armenian compatriots – that we will always extend a welcome to you, and give you a warm reception.
RVDV,
I appreciate your thoughts. They delightfully differ from and stand incomparably superior as compared with the moronic mumblings of other Turkish posters here. A couple of things, though. In the late 1970s Germans did not readmit the Holocaust; they actually admitted it. Allies, of course, were non-existent at the time to breathe down their neck. The Nuremberg trials and the Jewish diasporan pressure have. But to say that Germans admitted the guilt only because they were pressured is untrue. Many things separate us humans from animals, but I’m convinced that repentance is a mark of civility and high-mindedness, not just a mark of humanity, understood here as humankind (you had this in mind, too?). Human development proceeds in a lopsided, disproportional manner given a multitude of reasons. Germanic Goths were humans too, but to expect repentance from these barbarians was like to expect a rabbit to smoke cigars.
I’d like to pose at this observation: “The Ottoman Empire was falling apart, there was a scramble to make a national identity for Turks to keep things together, and nothing pulls people together better than a common enemy. And, alas, there was a Christian minority that could be made into the scapegoat. And it didn’t hurt that they were among the wealthier of Ottoman citizens. A little ethnic and religious propaganda for the uneducated masses, and you have a recipe for disaster.”
I beg to differ. Armenians were not “a common enemy” for the Turks. The Allied Powers were. Did Armenians long for the Russians to come and liberate them from the Turkish colonial yoke? Many did and a couple of revolutionary groups did advanced the cause having witnessed the deaths of their people during the Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896. But Armenians, never formed—nor were they able to form–into a fifth column, staging massive revolts and insurgencies against the Turks. On the contrary, as ironical as it may be, Armenians supported the CUP back in 1908 in the hope that reforms in the Armenian vilayets be finally implemented. Armenians also fought bravely in the Ottoman fronts on the Turks’ side. Some deserted, yes, but you have to keep in mind that these deserters had already seen mass murders of their co-ethnics by Abdulhamid in 1894-96 and by the Ittihadists in 1909 (Adana).
You say there was “a scramble to make a national identity for Turks” in the waning years of the Ottoman empire. I don’t buy that. If there was a scramble in 1915 that led to mass murder of the Armenians, then explain the Hamidian and Adana massacres that happened 21 and 6 years before, respectively.
It is also false to say that Armenians “were among the wealthier of Ottoman citizens”. Many Constantinople and other urban Armenians, perhaps, but the prevailing majority of Ottoman Armenians—those living in the rural areas—were in miserable shape.
I also disagree that “a little ethnic and religious propaganda for the uneducated masses may be a recipe for disaster”. Not all uneducated masses are able to commit a crime of such a savagery and scale as Ottoman Turks even if they’re fed ethnic and religious propaganda. Here you skip the most important point, i.e. ethnic and religious propaganda was just a tool for a state-sponsored, premeditated campaign at physical extermination of the Armenians. Ethnic and religious propaganda can lead to occasional inter-ethnic, inter-religious, and inter-communal skirmishes, but for a wholesale deliberate annihilation of a people you need a state policy. And this is exactly what had happened.
Although I despise this denialist scholar, I often use his conclusion for the recipe of the Armenian disaster. Certainly, the determinant factor for the genocidal extermination of the Armenians was not a WWI scramble to make a national identity for Turks, nor was it a myth of Armenians as a common enemy, nor was it a strive to make the Christian minority into the scapegoat, nor was it the jealousy for the wealth and industriousness that Armenians had, nor was it the uneducated masses that started bashing heads just because they fell for a little ethnic and religious propaganda. As Bernard Lewis puts it, “For the Turks, the Armenian [national] movement was the deadliest of all threats [of course, as notorious denier Lewis identifies it as ‘threat’, whereas in reality there was no such a thing -- paul]. From the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very heart of the […] homeland—and to renounce these lands would have meant not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state.” Add to this a wholesale theft of lands, pastures, houses, orchards, structures, personal properties, bank accounts, insurance indemnities, cultural achievements, etc. and you have the true motivation for for the annihilation of the Armenians.
Paul,I enjoy your comments & this one is very instructive.
Tmid and Tokado, why do you stress yourselves over the anger you encounter here? Isn’t it understandable after so many years of denial and distortion of the facts of the Armenian Genocide, that Armenians might be defensive and untrusting of Turks? (You see, Tmid, it isn’t the impact of the ‘Mec Egern’ alone, but the Turkish response to it, that is problematic). Didn’t you come to this site to engage in conversation with us? Don’t you want to develop a deeper understanding? Try to hear the anger without defensiveness and don’t get side-tracked by it. It is a natural outgrowth of your society’s callousness toward Armenian pain. I respectfully suggest that you try to engage it compassionately.
On the other hand, help me to better understand Turkish defensiveness and resistance to respond to us as fellow human beings who have suffered a tremendous loss at the hands of your ancestors.
Turkey must not continue to benefit from the spoils of genocide. Compensation from your nation to my nation (and the other victim groups) must occur before our peoples can put this great crime behind us. I do not desire the destruction of Turkey, or the exile of Turks, but the status quo is counter to rapprochement. I am sure you can see this. The question is: Can Turks move past their exaggerated sense of national pride enough to admit guilt and make amends? If not, Armenians will continue to find ways to pressure your nation to do so, in order to achieve justice for ourselves and mankind in general.
” The question is: Can Turks move past their exaggerated sense of national pride enough to admit guilt and make amends? If not, Armenians will continue to find ways to pressure your nation to do so, in order to achieve justice for ourselves and mankind in general.”
I believe sooner or later it will happen. Now we are in an information age, it’s fairly easy to reach to information via internet. Before people’s only source were the teachings in the school, which was (and still is) highly subjective and nationalist; and TV. I mean 10 years ago you wouldn’t ever hear about these things, now people protest about it.
Not in 2-3 years, but maybe in 10 years… (al so depends if the whole country avoid to become an islamic republic by then :-/ )
Dear Compatriots,
I do not wish to comment pon any of those posts above.They have all -unfotunately-diverted from other main issues we have AT PRESENT with Azerbaijan *well supported by great Turkey, shooting hundreds of bullets of all sizes-short of cannon shelling-trying to exasperate NK *Nagornyi karabah( forces and Armenia.So think of that 2 soldiers on our side killed one badly wounded.this has been going on for since they begged for peace…that is it was Aliev BABA, not son Aliev son.Latter still with his war rhetoric and pertty SOON AT UN. AS SECURITY MEMBER OF THAT AUGUST BODY…
this is what we Armenians aare up against.While we are at it…they go on with their dreams of brining us to knees AGAIN! so armenian WAKE UP!!!
{““What in your opinion, happened to the millions of indigenous Christians of Asia Minor? In particular, where are the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians of Van, Erzrum, Kharberd (Mamuretülaziz), Bitlis, Digranakerd (Diyarbekir), and Sebastia (Sivas)? Where are the Armenians of Constantinople, Adana, Zeitoun, Smyrna, Kars, and Ardahan?”} asks Berch.
{“They died”} answers Denialist Turk Tokado. (tokado April 30, 2012)
No, Denialist guest: they did not just die of old age; they were murdered, exterminated in an organized, pre-planned manner. That sentence, and your failure to unequivocally state where you stand on the AG makes you a Denialist.
{“ I am always puzzled with this analogy. I think the correct one should be: And if someone accidentally ran a red light in Izmir 100 years ago, smashed into your great grand-father’s car, and he lost his legs… In that case the claim for compensation doesn’t fit very well since the crime would be expired…”} writes Tokado (tokado April 30, 2012)
Sorry, pal. If you had a basic understanding of logic and law, you would not be puzzled: there indeed would be a statute of limitations on an accidental injury.
There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of murder.
There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of Genocide.
“No, Denialist guest: they did not just die of old age; they were murdered, exterminated in an organized, pre-planned manner.”
I see. So they did not die….
“That sentence, and your failure to unequivocally state where you stand on the AG makes you a Denialist.”
With all due respect I don’t care about what you think…
“If you had a basic understanding of logic and law, you would not be puzzled”
I have an understanding of logic. Your’s hoverer does not follow any n-th order one.
“There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of murder.”
In Turkey, there is.
“There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of Genocide.”
In int. law there is not
“There is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of murder.”
“In Turkey, there is.”
That may have been the WORST comeback in the history of humanity. Like what does that even mean? In MY country people get away with murder! HAH! Take that!… Whoa buddy, you sure told Avery. He has NO chance whatsoever of winning this one. Come on dude, at least TRY. People like me spend time reading it, have some respect for the reader by TRYING a little.
In Turkish law unfortunately there is Statute of Limitations for the crime of murder. I’m not saying that it is right, but it is a fact.
I’m tired of getting insulted by these two guys, who obviously spend effort to twist my words and fit them into different context.
In the murder of Izmir the statute of Limitation would apply, so the analogy sounds weird. That’s my point.
Tokado, you must have been very tired when you wrote that last comment. Are you really trying to tell the descendants of murdered Armenians that Turks need feel no guilt for something that happened 100 years ago? Something that your nation has denied for 100 years? An ‘ugly moment’ that grows uglier every day because of the callousness of your government and the majority of your people who invent new ways to avoid justice on a daily basis?
Actually, you have simply revealed the persona that most Armenians assume most Turks possess anyway.
Not really surprised. Just noting once again that ‘dialogue’ is one of the subtlest forms of denial. It is the pseudo-intellectual way of saying “We wish you would shut-up already. We don’t care what happened 100 years ago. In fact—-We won. You lost. Accept it already.”
and also you want to punish the grand-grand son of the murderer, which has nothing to do with the crime. Again a flaw in the analogy.
Tokado, that is a completely ridiculous criticism. Armenians are not interested in punishing individual great-grandson of genocide perpetrators. Our goal is for a nation to nation reparation for the crime committed by your ancestors. The ‘great-grandfathers that committed these crimes, largely acted as agents of the state. Your nation dealt a near fatal blow against my people who were Ottoman citizens, a genocidal crime which has no statute of limitations. A mere admission of guilt is insufficient to restore what was stolen from us. It is the obligation of the state to address this crime and to help insure the long term viability of the Armenian nation—since that was the greatest injury inflicted upon us—the near annihilation of a 3-4 thousand year old culture.
I thought you acknowledged the crime. Do you not think that such a crime against humanity requires a restorative response?
“I thought you acknowledged the crime. Do you not think that such a crime against humanity requires a restorative response?”
I do, I do. I just wonder how the restorative response could be besides just paying. But I guess that will be the lawyers and politicians between two people to decide.
When I thing of restorations I always have the picture of a Turkish person living on a land for 3 generations, and suddenly the land is taken from him/her to be given to someone else. It doesn’t feel fair. Of course taking the land from its previous owner was not fair neither. I may be wrong on this picture, it has a very basic understanding of restitution.
Denialist Turk tokado: you’ve shown your true face and you’ll be dealt with accordingly on these pages as often as you pop up. Make no mistake…
“What in your opinion, happened to the millions of indigenous Christians of Asia Minor? In particular, where are the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians […]? –“They died”, cynically answers the petty denialist. From Oxford English Dictionaries: ‘to die’, verb, (of person, animal, or plant): stop living. According to the mentality of this unremorseful descendent of Ottoman mass murderers, a multitude of people have voluntarily decided to stop living precisely in 1915. Over 2 million people have reached a ripe age and communally “died”. Even the unborn slit off pregnant Armenian women’s wombs by Ottoman Turkish barbarians have decided to stop living.
“That was my answer to someone. Not to you. Nor to your question”, –further says the Turkish denialist. Even to someone else it wasn’t an answer, because you accused that someone (Sylva) of “trying to force [the Turks] to accept your opinions without listening to them”. I volunteered to listen to your opinion as to what happened to Western Armenians, but you you never did… until now, here it is: “the 2 -2.2 million native Armenians… died”. Simple, unashamed, and primitive à la denialist Turk.
“I see. So they did not die…”, –further cynically bloviates the denialist due to either inherent lack of remorsefulness or limitations of brainpan abilities to understand that to die (stop living) naturally and to be murdered (from Oxford English Dictionaries: ‘murdered’, noun: unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another) are completely different notions.
“In international law there is no Statute of Limitations for the crime of Genocide”, –further hallucinates the denialist. But, guess what, the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide declares genocide a crime under international law. It condemns genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war. The prescribed punishment is not subject to the limitations of time and place.
{“I’m tired of getting insulted by these two guys, who obviously spend effort to twist my words and fit them into different context.”} complains Denialist Turk-oglu Tokado-Bey.
I presume by “these two” it is meant myself, thy humble servant, and my compatriot, honorable Berch.
Some items for you to consider, Tokado-Bey:
1. Nobody invited you to come and comment @AW: you did and do on your own volition. As we all are.
2. You are getting tired ?: easy solution – do not comment @AW.
3. When you Deny the Armenian Genocide on the pages of ArmenianWeekly, you are ipso facto insulting me, an Armenian. My late Grandmother witnessed Armenians being shot by Turkish troops: they would press the barrel of a rifle under the chin of the victim and pull the trigger; the Armenians were hiding from the death squads – they hoped – inside an Armenian church. She remembered vividly into her 80s the aftereffects of a military caliber rifle bullet entering and exiting the head of a human being. Her eyewitness video testimony is on file at UCLA.
4. A large percentage of Armenian readers and posters @AW are direct descendants of AG survivors. Many have had their direct ancestors exterminated by Turks (Otttoman, CUP, Kemalist).
By denying the AG, you are insulting the majority of readers of AW.
5. Frankly, I am continually amazed at the tolerance and civility shown by most of my compatriots here @AW to the likes of you.
And you ain’t seen nothing yet, pal, if you think you have been insulted.
We have bested and worn out far more resilient and sophisticated denialists than you: if you stay around long enough, you’ll find out.
No dash between “Turk” and “oglu”, and no dash between the noun and “Bey”
1- True
2- True
3- I question everything. If a curious mind is something insulting to you, them I’m sorry. Small advice, don’t get close to scientists, you will feel insulted…
4- That is your own opinion.
5- A tolerant and civilized behavior is the key. Doesn’t match to everyone’s personality of course.
“And you ain’t seen nothing yet, pal, if you think you have been insulted.
We have bested and worn out far more resilient and sophisticated denialists than you: if you stay around long enough, you’ll find out.”
So more insults are waiting… Such a lovely person you are.
Tokado,
Since you have a curious mind and question everything, do you question how over the course of a few years 3 million Christians disappeared from your ”homeland”? Or why you look nothing alike your ancestors from Central Asia? Or why Turkish citizens are living in houses and using properties that your government obtained through murder and deportation?
Those are simple questions that are awaiting simple answers, don’t you think? I wonder if they ever crossed your curious mind and you found answers to those simple questions? If so, would you be kind to enlighten us?
Of course Sella, those people are either killed, forced to leave the country, or assimilated. I do not say that Ottomans were angels.
I do not question why we don’t look like our ancestors from Central Asia though. I just don’t care the race issues. I mean who cares about being a “pure” (does this notion even exist?) race or something. Turks, like Armenians, or other populations around are mixes of many racial characteristics. It actually is a very good thing in genetics point of view.
They live in those houses because their fathers, and their grandfathers have lived there. Those were given to them by the Ottoman Government. This is as simple as that.
Okay. Boyajian. let’s negotiate the amount of the compensation. First tell me exactly what is in your mind I will try my best especially if you are willing to give me some sort of commission