YEREVAN (A.W.)—President Sarkisian’s remark on the campaign trail about the term “Yeghern” has drawn harsh criticism in Armenia and the Diaspora.
Speaking at the Malatia district of Yerevan on Feb. 5, Sarkisian said, “[The] words ‘genocide’ and ‘yeghern’ are the same, and even by not pronouncing the word ‘genocide,’ the U.S. President has said everything,” reported Armenpress.
Sarkisian was referring to President Obama’s statements on Armenian Genocide commemoration day in recent years, where the latter consistently avoided the term “genocide,” employing the expression “Meds Yeghern” (Great Crime) instead.
“It’s true, we too use the expression ‘Medz Yeghern,’ but not in order to avoid the term ‘genocide,’ which is a crime against humanity accordingly to international law,” ARF Hai Tahd (Armenian Cause) Central Office director Giro Manoyan told iLur.am.
Dr. Ara Papian, director of the Modus Vivendi center in Yerevan, also criticized the President for the comment, telling iLur.am that Yeghern is not a legal term in international law. “’Medz Yeghern’ means genocide for us, but it doesn’t mean genocide to the rest of the world,” he noted.
“Perhaps the president needs a refresher course—or a tutorial—on this most critical issue, so that… he does not jeopardize the pursuit of the Armenian Cause or disrespect the memory of the 1.5 million victims of the Armenian Genocide,” wrote Asbarez English editor Ara Khachatourian, calling Sarkisian’s statement “pedestrian and irresponsible.”
“If by now the president has not understood that the word Genocide carries a distinct set of political implications, then perhaps before stomping on the campaign trail, he should pick up a dictionary,” argued Khachatourian.
If this is Mr. Sarkisian way of signalling to the rest of us that he is no longer fit to lead, his objective has been achieved. Let’s not forget the signing of the defeatist protocols as being another fine example of his reckless disregard for our legal rights.
This latest cowardly stunt by Sarkisian makes kerry’s shameful about-face seem rather expected I’m sorry to say. Our house must be in order in Yerevan and it clearly is not. This is more concerning to me as an Armenian and we have every right, if not a responsibility, to ensure Mr. Sarkisian hears the outrage loud and clear.
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That’s incorrect Mr Sargsyan, even IF ‘yeghern’ and ‘genocide’ meant the same thing (they do not), it would still be incorrect because Yeghern in English means nothing and has no legal basis, but Genocide means a whole bunch of things, and it has legal implications.
Sorry Vartan, that comment was meant as a general comment not a reply to you.
Are you a citizen of the Republic of Armenia? Do you pay taxes there?
What exactly are your rights that you want the President of Armenia to regard?
So you people have no candidate, no hope in winning anything, and therefore, you blow things out of proportion to create a story and make the ARF look good. This model is unlikely to work for you all.
“So you people have no candidate, no hope in winning anything”
Perhaps if “us people” had a candidate and a hope for winning, Armenia would be a much better place, and “you people” would benefit from increased employment, decreased emigration, and a proper education.
Oh yes, I forget, the ARFers sitting in LA and NYC have a much better idea of the realities on the ground in Armenia and since they are from the West, obviously they are better educated and superior in every way than non ARF members.
In reality, those living in Armenia, are higher up on the pecking order bud, cause they are the ones on the front lines. Your moral and financial support are appreciated, but those don’t supersede the inhabitants of Armenia. If you’d like your voice to be heard then immigrate to Armenia. Don’t complain sitting on the sidelines.
Armenia is doing quite well given the circumstances. But because media outlets such as this and other Western funded sources within and out of Armenia only focus on the negative, people like yourself seem to think there’s purely doom and gloom in Armenia.
So if you’d like to do something tangible for Armenia, stop writing pedantic comments here, and consider how you can build up Armenia.
Believe it or not, it is quite possible the ARFers have a better idea of the realities of Armenia “from the comforts of their homes” in LA and NYC. After all, they are well fed and have the time. Your casual disapproval and insult of the ARF also shows your total lack of understanding of what diaspora Armenian life has been for the past century. You are not achieving anything with such speech, nor about to change anything with it.
Perhaps this “pecking order” you speak of is precisely the problem. If such a thing exists in the first place, then it means Armenia is a country under occupation by the wrong people. In my view Armenia should not be anyone’s country to decide who can do what. If Armenia is not every Armenian’s country, regardless of where they are, then to me it is no different than any other country. In other words Armenia needs a new constitution where it views all Armenians worldwide as its citizens. As long as a government, any government in Armenia, does not view every single living Armenian as a part of the country, then it is not the place for me, because that is not my vision of Armenia.
AR,
Who do you think gets Obama to even say Medz Yeghern in the first place? or gets every US President for the last 3 decades to acknowledge the tragedies befell the Armenians every April 24th? The current political system of Armenia? NO, the Diaspora does. Armenians living in NY and LA do.
We all want the best for Armenia and its people. .No one here is asking for perfection from its President . But how about just stop stealing from your own people for starters? Asking that much is not being out of line..Sorry.
Maybe US Ambassador Heffern, who took a lot of flak from his recent presentations in the US, asked Sargsian to say nice things about Obama’s Medz Yeghern to get back at Heffern’s oh-so-ungrateful Armenian American audiences.
Then again, maybe Sargsian just drank too much brandy.
Say, whatever happened to Samantha Power? We haven’t heard much from her since that video she made back around 2007 asking us to vote for Obama.
I guess she has better things to do.
I agree. Sarkisian is absolutely wrong and this mistake is unforgivable for the president of our motherland. Unfortunately population in Armenia either in coma or just fed up struggling and Sarkisian will stay president for another 4 years.
I thought it was 5 year terms in Armenia?!?!
Perhaps Serge Sarkissian doesn’t know English.
Perhaps he doesn’t know Armenian.
Perhaps he has received bad advice.
Perhaps he knows that yegharn and genocide are not the same. Genocide means tseghaspanoutune. Also genocide has legal repercussions. It is a crime that Armenians can take to The Hague International Court of Justice to demand justice from Turkey.
Perhaps he knows exactly what he has done. His acquiescence to the
farcical Protocols makes one wonder what SS is up to these days.
To equate yeghern with genocide is extremely harmful to Hye Tadd.
Agreed, this comment by him was a surprise by the president and unacceptable. More proof of being unorganized and divided.
Why this crime has not been taken to “The Hague International Court of Justice” yet? Are we wating for Obama to say the G word? Or there are some other weighty reasons? Just curious…
May be he’s looking for better compensation from Obama for his second term. His first term was highlighted by the shameful protocols which are still not withdrawn by Armenia. Would the second term be marked by dropping the Genocide in the year of the 100th anniversary? for a better bonus from the boss? What a shame !
Ara Papian’s statement (third paragraph from the bottom or the AW article) is right on the money.
Not to protect Sarkisyan since I have no idea why he said it, could be either because of ignorance or before the elections he tried to say nice things. I cannot tell. But, as someone who was born and grew up in Armenia I have to admit that I did not know what eghern meant. The teachers used medz eghern I would say in 95% of the time, if not more, throughout middle and high school. I have never heard the word eghern in any context other than the Armenian genocide and I automatically assumed that it meant genocide. I learned in abroad that eghern does not mean genocide. Like any native speaker I “feel” most of Armenian words, I know the subtle differences, when and in which context they have to be used etc. I still I do not have a good understanding of the word eghern. It is like a foreign word to me.
That’s interesting, yet the opposite of how I came to know it. Growing up outside Armenia I always knew Tseghaspanutiun, but only heard meds yeghern in recent years.
I am interested to know whether Gayane and Avery knew what eghern meant while living in Armenia or before Medz Eghern term were discussed extensively.
Yeghern and genocide are not synonyms. Besides, genocide is a legal term and can be considered by the International Court of Justice. Yeghern isn’t
Serzh go back to your corrupt Oligarch’s nest you are a disgrace,full of lies and deceit.
I think this criticism of Sarkisian could be more balanced. Of course Armenians want the US and others to recognize the events of 1915 as ‘genocide,’ without euphemistic substitutions. I am no less disappointed in Obama or Clinton or Kerry than most Armenians, but I am not sure that Sarkisian is wrong to spin Obama’s use of the term ‘Medz Yeghern’ in our favor. Isn’t he just saying “Thanks Mr. Obama for using one of our terms for our genocide, thus acknowledging that it was genocide.”
It would be better if Sarkisian followed up these comments by quoting Obama’s own comments on the genocide:
In 2006, Mr. Obama noted, “I criticized the secretary of state [Condoleezza Rice] for the firing of U.S. Ambassador to Armenia John Evans, after he properly used the term ‘genocide’ to describe Turkey’s slaughter of thousands of Armenians starting in 1915. I shared with Secretary Rice my firmly held conviction that the Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence.”
In this way, Sarkisian could emphasize that Obama’s use of ‘Medz Yeghern” is affirming genocide, despite his frustratingly overcautious use of terms. He could than also recollect these words from Obama:
“The facts are undeniable. An official policy that calls on diplomats to distort the historical facts is an untenable policy.”
It’s one thing for Obama to gingerly avoid alienating Turkey, but it is a mistake for Sarkisian to be anything but forceful and unequivocal—even while spinning the President’s words.
I more often then not concur and sometimes defend your insightful comments on these pages Boyajian, however I must say I do not agree with your preliminary assessment here.
You ask “Isn’t he just saying “Thanks Mr. Obama for using one of our terms for our genocide, thus acknowledging that it was genocide.”? No he is not. Sarkisian was clear in trying to draw a parallel between the meaning of two different words and he failed miserably because the meanings are not synonymous.
We are not in the business of trying to make obama’s political life easier by agreeing to whitewash truth for political expediency. Sarkisian should be encouraging people and policies that speak truth to power not supporting spineless politicians and half-baked policies that acquiesce to the political tides of the moment.
If our community were to accept obama’s use of medz yeghern instead of genocide, how many other nations across the world that have already accepted the genocide do you think would revert to using medz yeghern and what impact would this have on our long term goal of achieving legal reparations for the crime of genocide?
I don’t know Boyajian…. to a non-Armenian like me, what you said just feels like a- for lack of a better word- desperate attempt to defend Sarkisian and Obama. Medz Yeghern may mean “genocide” in Armenian, I don’t know if it does, but why would a man who said genocide for so long suddenly start saying Medz Yeghern? My guess is to avoid saying genocide. Calling the Armenian genocide by its proper name is against US foreign policy. Obama and Secretary of State Kerry learned that a little later than most, but they learned it nonetheless. No reason to complicate matter I think.
I wonder if Sarkisian would be content with an April 24th statement from Turkish PM Erdogan expressing regret and sadness for the medz yeghern of 1915?
If not, why should a double standard exist for the Obama’s of this world?
ChobannerE der chen sovirel politikan ich e nshanakum, bujts yergirov karavarum.
I have always been amazed that when Obama used the words Meds Yeghern why all Armenians throughout the world did not simply rejoice and unequivocally classify it as the President fully acknowledging the Genocide. I have always thought that slating Obama for the use of Medz Yeghern was snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. At long last a recognition that Medz Yeghern and Genocide have identical meaning. Pity the penny has only just dropped backtracking is never as effective. A little thought should have all Armenians accepting the identical meaning
Does anyone else remember a couple years ago when Vice President Joe Biden mentioned Sarkisian actually asked Obama NOT to say ‘genocide’ so that the protocols with Turkey wouldn’t be disturbed? Or am I the only one who seems to remember that news story, which was quickly swept under the rug after Sarkisian denied it? I sure hope Armenian elects someone else this time around.
Genocide Acknowledgment without Accountability is hollow and meaningless.
Acknowledgment must be accompanied with accountability; otherwise, the acknowledgment is worse than denial. Accountability means land, reparation and restitution. A good example of land recovery is Artzakh.
Beware of a solution (acknowledgment without accountability) that is worse than the problem (denial).
Turkey might very well spring a 100th anniversary surprise offensive by offering a half-vorr acknowledgment to all the minorities that once lived in Anatolia, and announce the opening of some border crossing as compensation, they might even renovate few more old Armenian Churches.
Imagine all the positive publicity Turkey will receive, it might even get accepted in to the EU, and the British will rally behind Turkey and act as the mouthpiece describing how great Turkey has become.
The oil and gas (operated by British Petroleum) will then flow form Central Asia into Europe via the NABUCCO-pipelines currently being built on its way to the gateways of the Caucasus (Georgia & Armenia).
For the sake of Armenia’s security, the president has to use the legal term Genocide that carries legal accountability for the worst crime humanity has given it a name.
Dr. Raphael Lemkin, a lawyer of Polish-Jewish descent who is credited for coining the word “genocide” in 1943 to describe the 1915 genocide of the Armenians and then the Holocaust, has also played an important role in compelling the United Nations to adopt the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in 1948 (after the Holocaust).
When asked how he became interested in the Armenian genocide, Dr. Lemkin explained: “I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians; and after[wards] the Armenians got a very rough deal at the Versailles Conference because their criminals were guilty of genocide and were not punished”.
Prior to the use of the word “genocide”, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and other world leaders described the events as the “Armenian holocaust.”
Boyalian is mainly right with his comments above.
May I respectfully say that alienating those who attempt to support you, as best they can, and who are also very influential, should not be lambasted for their efforts, but cheered from the roof tops. That is a far wiser approach that incentivises these very people to work hard to help you achieve your justifiable aims and hopefully finally get through to the Turkish leaders and people.
To insist that only one word “Genocide” across a vast array of languages conveys a single meaning, is pure nonsense and those who try and attribute a special legal meaning to the English word that no other words in all other languages can convey are clearly hopelessly misguided and should learn not to peddle such nonsense.
I fear though that it would seem to be an excuse for what would appear to be a lack of progress in achieving not only the recognition but also the reparation so very overdue to Armenians for almost 100 years. Time is unfortunately not on your side and I fear the wasted time in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory may well prove to have been a major diversion and mistake.
Marte choban e, amen mart kide ayt. Inchou kankadil, yearp te ge kankadin aba irents hamagirnearon 24% irents kveneare sergein ge verabahean. gam A.R.F. miasnagan tirk jshdelou tjvaroutyun ounoi`
AZKAYIN KIZI te ORVA POPULAR voroshoume arnelu gam yeghaze barzabeas shadakhosoutyun e:
Corrupt Serzh must have read Sona Tatoyan’s Anatolian family.
I am stunned!!!!!!!!
Words such as “Us people, You people, Sargsian just drank too much brandy, Armenians are in coma, Chobanee” are offensive..
I am not a voter, and I don’t live in Armenia and have never been there.
I love Armenia and love every single Armenian.
Genocide has not been acknwoleged by most so called civilized nations and we are directing the anger towards each other. Lets direct it towards other nations and other leaders.
Lets simply ask President Sarkissian for clarification. We all need this even for our own peace of mind.
Lets show some respect towards our own people everywhere, lets show respect to the president and his position( no matter who is in power), lets show respect to Armenia as a whole, and YES lets show respect to chobans too!!!!!!!
I hope I wont live to see Hayasdane turkee kam roosee lsee dak again, but with this current attitude that we have it could happen!
very well said Araks.
I agree with what you said Araks, but my use of “us people” and “you people” was a reaction to the same. There are Armenians out there who believe that the diaspora must not be involved in Armenia’s decision making, until they throw away everything they have worked for, go to Armenia, and burn the bridge behind them, apologize profusely to some mafia character for having been living in comfort for the past half century and beg for forgiveness and throw our fate in their capable hands. I don’t know what planet they live on.
Barev Hagop D,
I know deep down inside we love one another and we would give our lives for one another as we have done before. WE need each other. Without Diaspora or without Armenia WE have nothing.
Getting emotional is good, natural, and human. But,unfortunately we don’t have that luxury now. We have work to do. Oore Moosh-e?………….Oore Van-e?, Oore…………??????
Give respect to those who deserve respect, or else, the way you put, it loses it’s value. This is a democratic way of living, they way you suggest is somewhat Nazi-like. Sargysian is not a pharaoh (living god)… that said it’s just a campaign slip up that is being blown out of proportion by anti-Armenian propagandists people/media/organizations… However, I do agree with most people saying to have a more unified goals/objective or even an organization that has representatives from all Armenian parties of the world, kind of Armenian World Congress, like the ones that Arabs have but with countries.
Araks,
Chobans need to be in the countryside looking after the cattle, not in high offices deciding upon the fate of a nation. The tragedy of the Armenian people at this historical juncture is that we have uncouth provincials in the high echelons of power while bright, properly educated, erudite, professionally capable, and patriotic people are brushed aside.
Before directing anger at other nations, WE, Armenians, need to acknowledge unambiguously that it is the Genocide, not Mets Yeghern, that we need other nations to recognize. Does Serj contribute to this acknowledgment? I don’t think so.
I have forwarded 2 books ( 237 condensed pages of verses and poems) to P.Obama and and his wife about ‘Medz Yeghern’
If you come to the law …P.Obama is a lawyer…He can’t speak Armenian …So he can’t use word… he can’t understand the real meaning of it…This is imitation…Not accepted by any lawyer in the world…He is playing politics not law…!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
‘Medz Yeghern’*
Shan’t Be Uttered by Others
Hence ‘Genocide’ and Further Forth
President O.B, should not use a phrase he can’t understand,
He is a poet, judge, lawyer, he must be criticized.
Medz Yeghern for us are two horrible words
Not every one can realize
Something more than calamity . . .
Massacres . . . Tragedy . . . Disaster . . .
or even Genocide
Which sounds still little!
‘A Killing Plague’
It is long verse I forwarded on this site before…!!!
I like to analyze “Yeghern”
Something so bad beyond any imagination…
Like hell arriving and vanishing lives…
Like the end of the world…
In Arabic …as many Armenian lived in Arab lands they know word
“Fadiea in slaying”
Something so bad, so inhumane, that no one can imagine it can happen…
Like genocide and more…There is no equal word for it in English…
English is very weak language in words…
Specially in poetic words …
SP
Sella:
You are correct: if you are a native of Armenia, Metz Yeghern was the common term used in public, in schools, in street discussions. I even remember some of the common folk mispronouncing it as…we are going to the “… Եղեռնու հուշարձան” (correct grammar Եղեռնի).
I vaguely remember during some discussions between educated people who came to visit my educated father the word Ցեղասպանութիւն, But ‘Yeghern’ was what I heard almost exclusively.
Not until I lived in US for several years did I begin to appreciate the significance of the word ‘Genocide’.
So I think Sarkisian made an innocuous slip. Let’s cut him some slack. He is not a professional politician and not very world savvy. But he is getting better at it.
Even constitutional law professor Pres Obama – who is an experienced, outstanding public speaker – made several serious slips during both his campaigns.
Let’s also remember that AW published several very long, very detailed articles by Vartan Matiossian on the exact subject of ‘Yeghern’.
Judging by the extensive, well thought out comments posted by AW readers, it is clearly a somewhat controversial word even amongst ourselves; not at all clear cut.
As to the reaction to Pres Sarkisian: it is a little too much , and as Araks Navasartian wrote above it has gone way out of hand as far our own comments directed at our own. But in a way I think this will turn out to be positive for our AG cause. We can honestly say that not only US Pres Obama was severely criticized by Armenians, but also RoA President was severely criticized by Armenians – for non use of the term ‘Genocide’.
And all official or public language, by Armenians at least, should consistently use (or start using) ‘Genocide’ (or Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն in Armenian).
I am grateful that Leslie Dweck has understood the spirit of my comments. I don’t like the idea of Sarkisian legitimizing the intentional mislabeling of the Armenian Genocide. But I think that it is wiser for us to use Obama’s comment in our favor and to thank him for getting so close. It is then up to us to interpret to the world what Medz Yeghern means to us—-not that it is a synonymous term for genocide—-but that it, like the term Shoah, is one of our terms for the crime of genocide or ‘tseghasbanoutiun’ we suffered. We can make a silk purse out of this sow’s ear, in my opinion. We relinquish no claim to the truth of the genocide by embracing the phrase Medz Yeghern and reinterpreting it for others. We are the owners of the language that Obama borrows and have the right and obligation to provide the meaning to his use of the phrase. Explain the term—not resort to in-fighting, our Achilles heel!
I am not making excuses for or blindly defending Obama or Sarkisian. I simply think it is a waste of time to attack one another when we have the opportunity to promote our cause despite Obama’s timid diplomacy and Sarkisian’s failure to do so forcefully.
When the President of the US mentions anything it is widely publicized. When he mentions the events of 1915 it is our opportunity to ride the publicity train and loudly get our version out there—-as well as show the weak, incomplete or inaccurate points in the President’s message. I wasn’t there, but it seems that this is where Sarkisian failed.
“not resort to in-fighting, our Achilles heel!”: Right.
.”it is a waste of time to attack one another”: Right again.
If I recall correctly, this is the same President that visited Woodrow Wilson’s cemetary. At times actions speak louder than words and he is not a man who would give up an inch of Armenian territory.
Boyajian’s comment “But I think that it is wiser for us to use Obama’s comment in our favor and to thank him for getting so close” is brilliant and seems to be the President’s tactic!
The word “Genocide” was coined by the Jurist Raphael Lemkin in 1943 to describe the the 1915 genocide of the Armenians.
When Dr. Lemkin was asked how he became interested in the Armenian genocide, he explained: “I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians”. – (Source: CBS News Interview, 1948 on the occasion of the United Nations adopting the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide – which cites the Armenian Genocide as an example).
Why then attempt to call it something else?
To remove the genocidal criminal element of “Intent”
The International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) refers to the events as the Armenian Genocide?
Why then refer to it by different name?
To free Turkey from Accountability: land, reparation and restitution.
What matters is the accountability and specifically Armenian owned lands, assets, wealth of Armenians confiscated, not to mention the lives of 2 million people brutally murdered, reparation and restitution.
Turkey remains genocidal and a lethal threat to Armenia and Armenians. No amount of apology or acknowledgment will ever sincere or enough – it is Genocide Acknowledgment with Accountability.
– Berge Jololian
For years I’ve been saying that apology and 50 cents will not get you a cup of coffee.
While I’m glad to see a number of Turks, mostly in Istanbul, are admitting the Turkish crime against the Armenians, the sad fact is that the government, the establishment, the media, the masses not only deny the fact, but bear a racist hatred of the “gavoor” Armenians. With Turkey going “Islamist”, the chance of getting justice gets more difficult.
We have to be careful as we get close to the centenary of the Genocide so as not to be duped by Turkish diplomacy and propaganda. Ankara is looking for the slight communication with Armenians so as to go out to the world and declare that Armenia and Turkey are in the process of resolving their differences.
And then, on April 25, 2015, Ankara and foxy FM Davutoglu will go back to square one. How many times do we have to be led down the garden path by Turkey before we learn their game?
I do not understand why you Armenians are whining about the remark he made.he described the 1915 accurately
Dear Arakls Navassartian,
I agree w/you.Some simply do not wish to grasp that LONG BEFORE the word Genocide was coined ,we USED TO REFER TO IT as Medz yeghern or just Yeghern.that near a qtr century,from 1915 to 1945,rather 30 yrs……
So if Serge Sargsyan *not intentionally ussed it ,instead of Genocide ,it should be interpreted inm this mode,not necessarily that it was intentional,concilliatory etc., for in many recent occasion he has STOOD THE GROUND AND stated REcognition of the Armenian Genocide by r.of Turkey.How about that.
Moreover,why doesn’t someone ALSO mention that Serge is no lawyer,nay Int’l attorney.For in ordder to be able to make the distinction between Metz yeghern and Genocide is indeed apparent.One being the Calamity-like occurxance,the other Geno killing General killings to annahilate the Armenian people8 in this case , the indigenous people who populated the area,as described Western armenia the High Hayq*IBartsr Hayq*now depopulated-cause of Eviciton by great Turkey’s previous Govt.s…
Certainly he knows that at least very well.But it simpley must be regarded as Araks says w/respect.ypou see in my above mentioned – on another thread here w/title of Armenian Elctorate Iniddifernet-I make menion that I ask the respect Hargeli pres. to consider my PLEA of a Vice president alongside him for TWO yrs as Paruyr Hairikian pleas and then keep that period of time for future vice pres. as well.You see it is better to BY AND BY go around change of Gov.t in Ra, than -Heaven forbid Arab like upheavals, nay Violent Uprisings ,UNNECESSARY BLOOOD SHED…WHAT_ARE YOU ,AM i TO COMPARE MY PEOPLE WITH THAT OF THE AFOREMENTIONED…
cOME COME ARMENIANS ,BE A BIT MORE SERIOUS!!!!!!
After giving long thought to it I have formulated that this election,PRES. ELECTING PROCESS BE to elect A TRANSITIONAL GOVT. rather than what some imagine and hope for.That of a violent overthrow or semi -violent one.For we simply must keep our calm.Armenia, don’t forget is essentially a newborn re independent Republic to be CHERISHED BY ALL ARMENIANS.Never listne to odars,whether turk or axeri or any other .We must ourselves take care of our own *Housewash and not tend the washed cloths outside for others to see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dr. Ara Papian: “Medz Yeghern’ means genocide for us, but it doesn’t mean genocide to the rest of the world.” If it means genocide for “us”, then maybe we should explain that to the rest of the world given the fact that President Obama has already used it four times. Maybe, just maybe, that is what we should do instead of grabbing our marbles and slinking away from the game. Is Papian incapable of explaining that to the rest of the world through his impressive “Modus Vivendi”, or is he afraid that by so doing he will be seen as trying to justify Obama’s use of the term? Should we, then, simply leave the world in the dark about the true meaning of the term and allow a situation to go on in which the two terms are posed against each other as mortal enemies:. This borders on cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. This is not politics. We have to get a little more real than that. Is it conceivable that we could insist that BOTH words be used side by side in referring to 1915? ?
I suspect when Mr Papian says “for us” he means we use Meds Yeghern in Layman’s terms. In conversations we also use Chart as a substitute for Tseghaspanutiun, because it is quicker. I suspect Yeghern is used for similar reasons. When we are conversing together we are generally not getting into a politically technical dialogue. That’s why it is unacceptable for a politician to use anything other than Genocide, because anything else, and our Genocide which has legal implications, is downplayed, cheapened, and the party responsible given immunity.
“This borders on cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. This is not politics. We have to get a little more real than that. Is it conceivable that we could insist that BOTH words be used side by side in referring to 1915?”
Sensible.
Diran,
How can both words be used in referring to 1915 if one of them has legal repercussions for the perpetrator under international law and the other doesn’t? Are we seeking reparations and land restitution for the crime against humanity or we’re just seeking acknowledgment of some unsubstantiated “crime”, “evil”, or “calamity” that we, Armenians, call Mets Yeghern? A foreign leader has effectively substituted Genocide for Mets Yeghern, and some of us, Armenians, are parroting this falling into the trap that seems to be linguistic but in reality has serious detrimental political consequences for our Cause.
Dear Araks NavassartIan
I am puzzled if yoiu are stunned.I treid it in very simple fashion to describe that since 1915 t0 1945 (a span of 30 years time) word Genocide did not exist.
We used Metz yeghern or plain Yeghern.Why all the fuss then, when the man slipped and that(which in his youth I ´m sure he must have been taught and people all around used it…
Several times over I have seen him on the T.V. addressing great turkey using the words ¨Recognition of the Armenian Genocide¨
Instead I believe what really matters these days is the safety of our people in Hayastan.Right next door the Azeris and Georgians are in upheavals..
Thanks God Armenia , is not following suit.I suggest there be some thinking ,discussion & debate about a mid of the road EVOLUTIONAYR change in RA.
I suggested bdest would be a T<RANSITIONAL MODE.That of serge Sargsyan -if he wins the elections appoint a VICE PRESIDENT in the person op Hairikian,Raffi hovahaniisian as FM ,Bagratian Hrant as the new Ministre of economhy.Thus avoiding a clash and better yet.
Neither a Coalition(that was tried in the past with the ARF and Country of Law etyc., This being a CONCILIATORY ONE.Which would allow it to go through an evolution .By and by gaining ground for a real change in the country´s system of governance…
Now this is more important at present than the issue of any other…
This must be the real final stage of genocide…
Rationalizing Denial by the Victim Group: When the disenfranchised aggrieved group (The Armenians) begins to rationalize the intentional mischaracterization of complicit genocide deniers as somehow understandable and even justifiable.
Would someone like to try and explain the difference between the English words TRAGEDY and GREAT CALAMITY (i.e. Medz Yeghern)? Is it not blatantly self evident to native speaking English speaking people that both of these words (i.e. tragedy and calamity) are synonymous with each other?
How has our community reacted to a US President’s April statement describing the Armenian Genocide as a “Great Tragedy”? Not well, and rightly so. Is “Great Tragedy” really that different from “Great Calamity” (i.e. Medz Yeghern)???
We must understand and appreciate that the word Genocide carries a distinct set of legal implications according to international. Medz Yeghern does not. Instead of trying to learn a new language, perhaps Mr. Obama should first master his own native language: the fairly simple to pronounce and legally accurate English word to describe what happened to Armenians in 1915 is G E N O C I D E and he knows this well.
If tomorrow morning Erdogan releases a statement expressing regret and sorrow for the Medz Yeghern of 1915, I’m curious to know if Sarkisian would be as content with this admission as he seems to be with Obama’s use of Medz Yeghern. Would Sarkisian insist that Turkey’s PM use the word Genocide or would Medz Yeghern suffice?
Very well said, Armenag.
But, as you can see, there are certain mind-tilters in these pages advancing the idea that genocide and medz yeghern bear the same meaning outside the Armenian national psyche. In essence, some weak-willed Armenians are being gradually habituated to the idea that internationally, too, medz yeghern and genocide are the same thing. But they venture falling into a trap, because medz yeghern doesn’t figure in any international convention or document and, therefore, cannot be used as a legal basis for material and territorial compensation thus relieving Turkey from any liability.
Only politically myopic people or outright sell-outs cannot see the danger of using medz yeghern internationally as a substitute for genocide.
Proves once again that Serjik is nothing more than a puppet, not a national leader. He simply bowed to the US before elections touching upon the most sensitive issue for all Armenians. It is the international recognition of the Genocide, not Mets Yeghern, that’s being advanced by the Armenians worldwide. It is the Genocide, not Mets Yeghern, that’s been recognized by many federal and provincial governments, international organizations, professional associations, advocacy groups, and historians. It is the term Genocide, not Mets Yeghern, that Raphael Lemkin coined based, in particular, on mass annihilation of the Armenians. It is the Genocide, not Mets Yeghern, that figures in a relevant UN Convention. It is the Genocide, not Mets Yeghern, that is considered a crime against humanity and, as such, has legal consequences for the perpetrator. But, I guess, Mr. President Serj doesn’t know these things, or keeping a throne under his b*** seems more important than matters of all-national concern.
I’m a native Armenian speaker and I’ve always heard and used Medz Yeghern referring to the Genocide. I am shocked by the exaggerated reaction to the President’s speech. In my opinion, President Sarkisian has delivered some brillant speeches throughout his term better than any Armenian leader…
Lus, you’re mistaken. Re-read what the president said: “[The] words ‘genocide’ and ‘yeghern’ are the same, and even by not pronouncing the word ‘genocide,’ the U.S. President has said everything.”
Well, the words ‘genocide’ and ‘yeghern’ may be the same for the Armenians, because narrowly, in our national midst only, we know what we mean when we use both words. But they’re certainly not the same widely for the international community that has no idea whatsoever what Medz Yeghern means. The international community knows what Genocide means and some of its member-states have recognized it as such not as Medz Yeghern.
Secondly, the U.S. president has not said everything by not pronouncing the word ‘genocide’ because he promised to recognize the Genocide not Medz Yeghern. Therefore, he still has a mile to go to fulfill his promise. When he does, this will mean he has said everything.
Lastly, has the Armenian president nothing to do in his country than to parrot other presidents’ words? Is this linguistic dichotomy THE pressing issue in the Sargsyan-led country? No immigration, no military conflict, no governmental corruption, no lawlessness, no poverty? Or maybe he’s doing what he’s being told to do?
Petros,
What is to come out of ‘recognition’ and ‘apologies’?
Lus, please elaborate on to what you mean by “What is to come out of ‘recognition’ and ‘apologies’ and why you put these words in quotes?
Genocide recognition and apologies do not mean much for me, they can keep the ‘apology’ for themselves! What is it good for anyway?
To Jirair,
I am in accord w/you aas to being very carefull with great Turkey diplomacy…and on the under hand am a bit gladdened and encouraged to see on the scene a YOUNGMAN like Khachik Mouradia the editor of AW(English section) deliver a very measured,well versed discourse in Ankara at a meeting of the intelligentsia
I would suggest that others follow suit and carry on the way he does.
for to deal with foxy FM type Turkish diplomats is rather a difficult one.
Only career diplomats( like we do have a fwe even in RA are doing better now.Comes to mind Shavarsh Kochaian,vice FM, Raffi Hovhannessian(though latter true (SHARAVIGH) offspring of the Western armenian heroes,Gevork chavoush, Antranik etc.,.He, not so much sophisticated as above mentioned AW Mouradian ,but the other alternative as shpowing so to say the ¨¨TEETH¨¨ to those hardliner Turks that think Armenians as a rule are those downtrodden RAYAS…THEY USED TO BOSS ON….
Let me get back to the issue raised here.
Serge Sarkissian -let´s give him a bit of tribute too(on top of all those shortcomings mentioned here and elsewhere-is a NK fighter, a man that will not give in to axeri rhetoric and threatsw,-like I mentioned above he stood the ground even with great Turkey..
Fact is even his football diplomacy ,though at first glance and the protocols may seem all relenting to the whims of the big boys,may , just may have been a (HAZGERDIAN) Persian king that was very cunning….where was I ,oh yeah Serge must have been boxed-in so to say ,don´t forget , 3 guys,Javier Solana (rep. of EU) , Hillary clinton, and Lavrov…pressinbg for Armenians to kiss and make up with grea Turkey….
Anyhow,at present the ball is in the other´s court.But again Time to finally take back the signaturesw to the infamous protocols that evn the aforementioned TRIO must have been well pursuaded that the other side,namely great Turkey was the one that did not comply <WITH THEIR WISHES…not little R.of Armenia..
Went too far perhaps ,but good to sometimes review what has been done by this , that person for Armenity-Armenidad..
We must from now on get well geared up and formulate new tactics, nay first put our own HOUSE IN DIAPSORA IN ORDER, then only critic Homeland.
Fact is again today I have sent many an email to the effect that we need now a CONILILLIATORY Government in RA, not a coalition not a present like(/nearer to a monopolistic) one man rule…
He needs at his side a Vice prfesident to begin with ,endowed with the different type thinking abit further away from the previous 20 yr rule of quassi MENABEDAGAN (One Governmenmtal ) one…
Alas, time is short for me .I think i shall leave this , for next time to return to such contemplations and ¨´suggestions¨¨ above all,my preferred word!!!!
I tend to view Sargsyan’s remark in wider political context. May it be that certain supragovernmental sinister forces that manipulate events in the world first put “medz yeghern” in the mouth of the US president to habituate the Armenians to the idea that in or before year 2015 the US may acknowledge the great calamity or great evil or whatever “medz yeghern” literally means, but not the genocide as Obama has promised? As their marionette, Sargsyan, too, may have been charged with a task of advancing the idea in the Republic and the Diaspora, although he certainly has no authority over the Diasporan Armenians. If true, this development may be even more detrimental to the Cause than the ill-fated protocols, because Armenians are gradually being habituated to the idea that “medz yeghern” is maximum they can get from the US thus relieving murderous Turkey from any liability—legal, financial, and territorial, because the term “medz yeghern” is only used by the Armenians; doesn’t figure, as such, in any international legal document; and thus bears no legal repercussions for the perpetrator.
I’m saddened to witness once again, after the infamous protocols, that the Armenian president doesn’t reflect the aspirations of his people caving into pressure by supranational manipulators only to maintain his position in power. What can we expect from other nations if we don’t respect and stand up for what we consider right for our nation?
It is absolutely true that the world is governed by underground, sinister and dark forces that so far have worked against Armenians. They meet in secret and allow no press coverage.
It is absurd to think that our President is brilliant to have equaled Obama’s Medz Yeghern statement to Genocide. This is the man who announced the doomed “road map” on the eve of April 24, let’s not forget. No, I do not think that he is a brilliant diplomat either.
His statement concerning Medz Yeghern was not a Freudian slip. Furthermore, it was not planned to attract more votes in his re-election camaign.
The only probable reason would have be that he’s sending a message to Obama that, like him, he’s seeking a second mandate and if re-elected, he’s prepared to legitimize the watering down of the term Genocide. Period.
To all those who find our President smart or brilliant, or those who wanted to give him a chance and ask him to clarify what he has said, ask him the following question:
[ What would you do Mr. President, if Erdogan apologized to all Armenians for Medz Yeghern? ]
Would that mean the end of this debate? Justice would have been served, and we can go back to business as usual? Or we can then take Turkey to court for reparations based on an apology that no world authority understands or recognizes? No, it makes no sense not to call a spade a spade.
Very well said, Sarkis. I am disheartened to see some Armenian posters in these pages, consciously or unintentionally advancing these underground dark forces’ agenda for gradually watering down the term “genocide”. See how many sell-outs are attempting to tilt peoples’ minds and get them habituated to the notion that “genocide” and “medz yeghern” are synonymous even outside the narrowly Armenian realm of usage of both terms. This is all part and parcel of one sinister agenda by those globalist sons and daughters of b**** and it should be taken and dealt with very seriously. I sense that such a trend can be more detrimental to the Cause than the ill-famed protocols. With “medz yeghern” now firmly looming in the US president’s April 24th proclamations, unrepentant denialist Turkish government can gladly seize the moment before or in 2015 and offer sort of an apology for the Büyük Felâket (great calamity), a calamity which, as the Turkish fable goes, has befallen not only upon the Armenians but upon poor Turks. Without doubt, Serj’s statement on Medz Yeghern was not a Freudian slip. He’s been charged with a task as in the case of the protocols, and, as marionette, fulfills it to the detriment of not only his citizens but the Armenians worldwide over whom he has no authority whatsoever. The guy needs to go. I’ll pray for that…
To Armenag: The last stage of genocide is precisely to convince you and others that Yeghern means calamity and not crime.
Diran,
Genocide is not just a crime which yeghern might mean. It is a crime against humanity so horrendous that a special term has been coined by Lemkin in 1943 to differentiate it from other crimes. A crime so horrendous that a UN Convention was adopted. And it is the recognition of the Genocide that Armenians advance not the recognition of Yeghern.
The word Holocaust is derived from 2 Greek Words Holos and Kaustos and the literal translation of these words is the whole burnt. It of course also means the genocide of 6M Jews. The Hebrew word “Shoah” that Jews use literally translated means “catastrophe” it also means the genocide of 6M Jews. The Yiddish word Churben or Hurban literally translated means “destruction” it also means the genocide of 6M Jews.
It is of course very clear that Medz Yeghern literally translated means “Great Crime” and that it also means the genocide of 1m Armenians.
It is totally absurd to suggest that international law does not and will not recognise the genocide meaning of the word. Anyone using that term in a suitable context is very clearly referring unequivocally to the Genocide of 1m + Armenians by the Ottoman Empire.
It is just as absurd not to recognise those countries who have used that term as not having fully recognising the genocide. To do so makes no sense whatsoever and merely totally unnecessarily results in Armenians “snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.”, “shooting their cause in the foot” rather than celebrating the victory and the acknowledgement.
Had you all rejoiced when Obama used “Meds Yeghern” and extolled him for having done so then the world would have understood that the USA supports your cause. Obama would appreciate the rejoicing and find himself having to go further. Vilifying him for having used the Armenian term for genocide resulted in the world thinking the USA did not support your cause and denigrated Obama’s efforts on behalf of Armenia, giving him little incentive to go further. A very dumb and totally unnecessary choice.
I must however also point out that any lack of progress with Turkey has nothing to do with which countries have or have not acknowledged the genocide, that is a total red herring. The only country that is required to acknowledge the genocide and make amends is Turkey on behalf of their previous incarnation as the Ottoman Empire. This should be achieved through international Law courts or directly.
Very many lesson could have been learnt by Israel’s negotiations with Germany that led to their direct reconciliation whilst many of those responsible for the genocide were still alive.
Time is not on your side when nearing 100 years since the genocide. You simply do not have the time to “snatch defeats from the jaws of victory” far better to, even belatedly, take these as victories and congratulate those who have shown support in this way. Time is of the essence you really have to concentrate your efforts on an approach that will achieve your aims not on red herrings.
I know my comments are blunt but they come from a good place that supports your cause and I hope that this gives you a useful perspective to ponder on from outside the Armenian community.
Leslie Dweck
When US President Obama starts referring to the Jewish Holocaust in official pronouncements using any of the expressions used by Jews themselves, then you might have an argument.
In the English language it is called Jewish Holocaust.
In the English language it is called Armenian Genocide.
When Pres Obama was Senator he routinely said “Armenian Genocide”.
Now, suddenly he has to go through some verbal gymnastics to try to pronounce a hard-to-pronounce foreign phrase, instead of the straightforward Genocide. Why ? We all know why. So please do not insult our intelligence by trying to convince us …that it is raining.
Also regarding your use of 6 million and 1 million.
According to Jewish sources the actual number of Jewish Holocaust victims is 5.93 million. But we all commonly rounded it up and use 6 million.
Your deliberate lowering of the number of Armenian Genocide victims to 1 million is troubling: you are not engaged in some kind of Turcophile revisionism, are you ?
The commonly accepted figure for the AG (1915-1923) is 1.5 million.
Adding all the other massacres – Hamidian, Adana, Dersim (mostly Kurds, but also large number of hidden Armenians), plus several smaller ones – adds up to about 2 million indigenous Christian Armenians murdered by Turks.
Sorry to be blunt: but if somebody wrote “….the Jewish Holocaust, when 3.6+ million Jews were murdered..”, Jews would be upset, don’t you agree ?
Leslie:
Re: “Very many lessons could have been learnt by Israel’s negotiations with Germany that led to their direct reconciliation.” —Some lessons, but not many. The Israeli-German negotiations did not include land reparations issue because Germany was not the ancestral land of the Jews from which they were expelled or outrightly murdered. In our case, Armenians were forcibly deported and mass murdered from OUR ANCESTRAL lands. This fundamental difference must be appreciated.
Re: Had you all rejoiced when Obama used “Meds Yeghern” and extolled him for having done so then the world would have understood that the USA supports your cause. Obama would appreciate the rejoicing and find himself having to go further. Vilifying him for having used the Armenian term for genocide resulted in the world thinking the USA did not support your cause and denigrated Obama’s efforts on behalf of Armenia. A very dumb and totally unnecessary choice. —Not very dumb and not totally unnecessary. The flip side of this would be giving Obama an impression that Armenians are satisfied with his failing us by promising to recognize the genocide but uttering “great crime/calamity” instead. There is a fear that extolling Obama would make him think that he’s done enough for the Armenians and that there’s no need to go further. But, obviously, “Meds Yeghern” is not enough based on HIS OWN promise. Ronald Reagan once used the word without unnecessary borrowing from the Armenian language. Why is the current president different?
Avery, do you really think Sargsyan made an innocuous slip? Why on earth touch upon the issue now, before the elections? Why parrot what other head of state has wrongly uttered? Has Sargsyan consulted linguists, historians, genocide scholars, international law specialists at all? Or he thinks he knows everything? Or maybe there was no need to consult them because it was not the task? Sargsyan is one of “them” not one of his people. It was always clear and became even clearer when we witnessed how he handled the defeatist protocols’ business. But he’s mistaken if he thinks he’s almighty. As we all know, for every action there is an opposite reaction. Has he learnt physics at school? People who know him say he was an underachiever. So he stays…
If it was that simple, that Medz Yeghern and Genocide are interchangeable terms, then why can’t President Obama utter the word Genocide?
Why can’t he simply say in his yearly remarks in English :
[ … April 24, marked the beginning of Medz Yeghern or as we called it in this country, the Genocide of Armenians… ]
He could say it when he was a Senator, and as President, he should be able to delivering remarks fully in Eglish.
Excerpt from Statement of Barack Obama on the Importance of US-Armenia Relations, January 19, 2008:
“I also share with Armenian Americans – so many of whom are descended from genocide survivors – a principled commitment to commemorating and ending genocide. That starts with acknowledging the tragic instances of genocide in world history. As a U.S. Senator, I have stood with the Armenian American community in calling for Turkey’s acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. Two years ago, I criticized the Secretary of State for the firing of U.S. Ambassador to Armenia, John Evans, after he properly used the term “genocide” to describe Turkey’s slaughter of thousands of Armenians starting in 1915. I shared with Secretary Rice my firmly held conviction that the Armenian Genocide is not an allegation, a personal opinion, or a point of view, but rather a widely documented fact supported by an overwhelming body of historical evidence. The facts are undeniable. An official policy that calls on diplomats to distort the historical facts is an untenable policy. As a senator, I strongly support passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution (H.Res.106 and S.Res.106), and as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide.”
“[…] as President I will recognize the Armenian GENOCIDE.” If Medz Yeghern and Genocide are synonymous in the English language, then why then-presidential candidate Barack Obama didn’t utter “As President I will recognize the Armenian Medz Yeghern”?!
John:
1. Medz Yeghern and Tseghasbanutiun are synonyms for 1915 in the Armenian language. There is no question about that. If you question that, then you have a lot of studying to do. I will not take the time to prove it to you here. If you thoroughly
read this series alone, you will find the unmistakable proof of that. The name in Armenian for the Genocide Memorial in Yerevan is based on the term Medz Yeghern, not on the Armenian rendition of the word genocide [tseghasbanutiun]. That is a fact.
2. 1915 was genocide no matter what the President of the U.S. or any other politician says or fails to say. The president’s using the word genocide has no automatic legal repercussions and the sooner people understand that the better. If he recognizes the Armenian Genocide by using the word itself, the victory would be a great political and moral one for Armenians and a harsh judgement against Turkey for its century of cold-blooded lies about the Great Crime its predecessor state committed. It would undoubtedly have profound and unpredictable effects on the alliance. But it would not be a legal act in any way, shape or form. That is what you need to understand. Legal recourse does not depend on what Obama says, and if it materialized he would not even be quoted. I hope that is clear.
3. Some say, “What good would [mere] recognition and apology do?” If it is TURKEY we are talking about, NOT Obama or any other world leader, then I say it would do a lot of good, indeed. I, personally, would feel much better. For one, it would shut down the entire denialist machine of the Turkish state which has suffocated the Armenian people and the world of diplomacy with its web of lies for almost a century now, forcing otherwise perfectly sensible officials into shameful acts of hypocrisy and maintaining an atmosphere in which ever new crimes against Armenians can be committed in Turkey.
Yes, Diran, I kinda know that Medz Yeghern and Tseghasbanutiun are synonyms for 1915 in the Armenian language. Indeed, in the Armenian language. Only in the Armenian language.
1. The problem is that when Medz Yeghern is used as a borrowed word intended for a wider international audience and in a wider international setting, this creates confusion because no one except for the Armenians knows what Medz Yeghern means. The world knows the Armenian Genocide not the Armenian Medz Yeghern. If you question that, then you have a lot of studying to do. It appears that you certainly have studying to do as far as the name for the Genocide Memorial in Yerevan is concerned. My friend, the official name of the Genocide Memorial in Yerevan is Հայոց ցեղասպանության թանգարան-ինստիտուտ, in English: Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute. Check their website in both languages at http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/index.php, if you will.
2. Partially agree. If 1915 was genocide then it DOES matter what the English-speaking President of the U.S. or any other politician says or fails to say. No other foreign politician so far has said that he or she recognizes the Armenian Medz Yeghern. Since this is so with France or Russia, for instance, why should it be different with the U.S.? One must call a spade a spade especially after Obama, as presidential candidate, promised to recognize the Armenian Genocide, not the Armenian Medz Yeghern. I kinda understand that the U.S. president’s using the word “genocide” has no automatic legal repercussions. But using the proper word in the English language by an official of such magnitude will be in harmony with relevant legal documents: the UN Convention on Genocide and other international documents, based on which the Cause can be advanced further into the legal stage. This should be understood.
3. Agree.
P.S. I’ve read Matiossian’s series on the term “Medz Yeghern”. But Dr. Matiossian elaborates on Medz Yeghern as a term synonymous to genocide used in the Armenian language, in our national psyche, not in a wider international understanding and perception. His articles do not touch upon the perception of the term by non-Armenian audiences.
To John: Clarification. In paragraph 1. “this series” refers to Dr. Matiossian’s series on the term “Medz Yeghern” in AW, not the present article. It begins at
http://armenianweekly.com/2012/10/25/the-birth-of-great-calamity-how-medz-yeghern-was-introduced-onto-the-world-stage/comment-page-1/#comment-72225
To John:
1.The site you recommended pertains to the Genocide Museum at the genocide memorial complex in Yerevan. The main memorial dedicated to the memory of the victims of the Armenian Genocide, where the eternal flame is burning, is called Մեծ Եղերնի Յուշարձան, transliterated into English as Medz Yegherni Houshartsan and correctly translated into English as “The Memorial to The Genocide”, your “in Armenian and only in Armenian” caveat as to the equivalence of the two terms notwithstanding.
2. You seem to imply that the main focus of Dr. Matiossian’s series is on establishing the synonymity of Medz Yeghern and Genocide. That is off base. His primary focus is on exposing the fact that the term Medz Yeghern has been systematically exploited by the enemies of the truth regarding the Armenian Genocide to mean something that it does not in Armenian, that is, a calamity akin to a tsunami, a flood, an earthquake, rather than a deliberate and evil criminal act. That seems something worth clearing up, don’t you think? If our forebears, the immediate survivors, called it the great crime, what right do we have to say, as some repeat again and again, that they really meant something entirely different? That is something I think deserves vigorous correction, despite our disappointments with the White House.
I’m afraid you’re mistaken again, Diran. I’m looking at the Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute’s website and I’m not convinced at all that the Memorial Complex, in which the eternal flame is burning, is called Մեծ Եղերնի Յուշարձան, transliterated into English as Medz Yegherni Houshartsan and translated into English by you as “The Memorial to The Genocide”. All I see is that the official name of the Memorial Complex is Ծիծեռնակաբերդի հուշահամալիր (http://www.genocide-museum.am/arm/Description_and_history.php) or Tsitsernakaberd Memorial Complex (http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/Description_and_history.php), not Մեծ Եղերնի Յուշարձան that you took an effort to translate into English as “The Memorial to The Genocide”.
Moreover, the purpose of the Memorial Complex is stated as following:
Ծիծեռնակաբերդի հուշահամալիրը նվիրված է 1,5 միլիոն հայերի հիշատակին, ովքեր զոհ գնացին թուրքական կառավարության իրագործած 20-րդ դարի առաջին ցեղասպանությանը (Tsitsernakaberd Memorial Complex in Yerevan is dedicated to the memory of the 1.5 million Armenians who perished in the first GENOCIDE of the 20th century, at the hands of the Turkish government).
Moreover, in the description of the Memorial Complex the website says:
Հուշահամալիրը զբաղեցնում է 4500քմ տարածք և բաղկացած է երեք հիմնական կառույցներից` Հուշապատ, Հավերժության տաճար, «Վերածնվող Հայաստան» հուշասյուն (The complex occupies 4500 square meters of territory and consists of three main buildings: the Memorial Wall, the Sanctuary of Eternity (Memorial Hall & Eternal Flame) and the Memorial Column “The Reborn Armenia.”)
Sorry, friend, but I see no Մեծ Եղերնի Յուշարձան or The Memorial to The Genocide translated by you anywhere in the official name or the purpose or the description of the Yerevan Memorial Complex structure.
Who bets on his car or house that the US will officially recognize the armenian lie in 2015? If the US recognizes it, I will sell my car and donate it to ARF. If not, I will take everybody’s car. Deal? :-))))
Ahmet, your name resembles an Armenian word “Akhmakh” based on your comments. Go figure what “akhmakh” means…
I do not believe, nor do I believe that Ara Khatchadourian in his heart believes that the President of Armenia needs education regarding the ramification of the use of word Medz Yeghern over the internationally recognized legal word Genocide. I want to assure our political pundits that the 1915 happening is Genocide needs no reminder or education for any one of us as Armenians. It is not worth the ink of their printers to do so in our media. President Sarkissian is being pragmatist as an astute politician.
President Obama has used the word Medz Yeghern in the past. He may not even utter that word at his upcoming April 24 proclamation. He may reiterate what John Kerry said during his Senate confirmation hearing. At the moment that is the political course this administration has also adopted. Let us face it; President Obama is not politically indebted to the Armenian community, if he ever was in the past other than his lip services. The incumbent President comfortably won the election without the semblance of Armenian American political support. He may even decline that lip service.
It is simply “Don Quixote”-ian to think that ink on paper will change the stand of one of the earth’s most powerful man’s mind against what he perceives to be in the interest of the country he leads.
It is best for us to cease the moment and educate instead the non-Armenian public the implication of President Obama’s use the word Medz Yeghern. We will be negating our own vocabulary if we say that the President of the United States has not signaled to the Armenian community outright that the 1915 happening is Genocide and explain or analyze to non-Armenians why the President the United States is not using the word Genocide instead.
Vahe,
[President Obama is not politically indebted to the Armenian community, if he ever was in the past other than his lip services.]
President Obama is politically indebted to every American citizen and American citizens of Armenian descent, now some 1.5 million-strong, are ones of them. His proclamation on the Importance of US-Armenia Relations of January 19, 2008 in his capacity as US presidential candidate cannot be considered as a “lip service”. It was an official statement in which he unambiguously promised: “[…] as President I will recognize the Armenian Genocide”.
[It is simply “Don Quixote”-ian to think that ink on paper will change the stand of one of the earth’s most powerful men’s mind against what he perceives to be in the interest of the country he leads.]
President of France or President of Russia are also ones of the earth’s most powerful men and they, too, work for the interests of the countries they lead, The difference is that these guys had courage to call a spade a spade not to involve themselves in verbal gymnastics with borrowed words.
[It is best for us to cease the moment and educate instead the non-Armenian public the implication of President Obama’s use the word Medz Yeghern. We will be negating our own vocabulary if we say that the President of the United States has not signaled to the Armenian community outright that the 1915 happening is Genocide and explain or analyze to non-Armenians why the President the United States is not using the word Genocide instead.]
Great! Now after spending decades at educating the world about the first genocide of the 20th century we should deviate from advancing the Cause for acknowledgment, reparations, and restitutions and concentrate on educating the world on the meaning of the word Medz Yeghern. Nice! Because one head of state used an unnecessary euphemistic substitution for what the world knows as The Armenian Genocide, we, the whole Armenian nation, now should start draining our efforts and finances on explaining why the President of the United States is not using the word Genocide, as he promised, but resorts to linguistic gymnastics instead. This is exactly the trap that those sinister behind-the-scene forces who put Medz Yeghern into the mouth of the President want us to fall into: preoccupy yourselves with explaining to the world what Medz Yeghern means and why the US President is not using the word Genocide. Spend a hundred more years on that! Good luck!
Poster Sarkis above suggested that the President say: “April 24 marks the beginning of Medz Yeghern or as we call it in this country, the Genocide of Armenians”. If these pages are screened by specialized US agencies (I’m sure they are), I’d humbly suggest the following. At the very least what Mr. Obama can do to keep his promise to his citizens of Armenian descent is to state in this year’s April 24 proclamation: “April 24 marks the beginning of Medz Yeghern or as Armenian-Americans and Armenians worldwide call it, the Genocide of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”.
Yeah, Vahe, why don’t we spend a decade or so on educating the world what “medz yeghern” means and why a U.S. president used it? By the time we’re done, another U.S. president will use another synonymous word, for instance, “jarter” in his or her proclamation, and we’ll spend another decade or so educating the world what “jarter” means and why a U.S. president used it. Then the next U.S. president will use another synonymous word, for instance, “vojir” in his or her proclamation, and we’ll spend another decade or so educating the world what “vojir” means and why a U.S. president used it. Then next U.S. president will use another synonymous word, for instance, “kotoratsner” in his or her proclamation, and we’ll spend another decade or so educating the world what “kotoratsner” means and why a U.S. president used it. How do you like it?
Seriously, I don’t understand. The presidential April 24th proclamation is a written statement, is it not? I mean, it is not something the president pronounces verbally, is it? If it’s possible for the English-speaking president’s advisors to dig out a weirdly-sounding Armenian word “medz yeghern” as a synonymous word that only Armenians use to describe their genocide, why with the same effort is it not possible to put on the paper another weirdly-sounding Armenian word “tseghaspanutyun”?! If English-speaking advisors of the English-speaking U.S. president are so keen in borrowed words to be used in an English-language presidential proclamation, then why not use “tseghaspanutyun”?
No, seriously, what difference for the English-speaking American public would these two versions of the proclamation make?
Version 1: “Today, we commemorate the Meds Yeghern, one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century. In doing so, we honor the memory of the 1.5 million Armenians who were brutally massacred or marched to their deaths in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire.”
Version 2: “Today, we commemorate the Tseghaspanutyun, one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century. In doing so, we honor the memory of the 1.5 million Armenians who were brutally massacred or marched to their deaths in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire.”
You see my point?
Genocide is a legal term. Why do we keep tossing it around like a political football when the issue is crime and punishment. Let’s take it to court —- and get the justice we deserve. Political proclamations are toothless and are not our main goal.
Boyajian
have you ever heard the terrible truth?
John the Turk, I usually don’t respond to your taunts, but….
If your NOT afraid to hear the terrible truth and learn what the rest of the world knows, please visit this link:
http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/index.php
Re: 6 million Jews, 1 million Armenians etc.
The Jews went through a genocide, however I don’t accept that their case was unique or worse than the Armenian one. Every time their community seemingly gets involved with the Armenian Genocide, they promptly bring in Turks “to show the other side”. By the same token, I encourage you to read works by Norman Finkelstein, Paul Rassinier, Arthur Butz, etc. In Finkelstein’s ‘Holocaust Industry’ he points out how a Jewish so-called scholar Bernard Lewis is perhaps the most notorious genocide denier of all against the Armenian case. Yet in the Jewish community he is still touted as a hero and an “expert”.
To “Genocide Observation”: Your comment is nothing but abhorrent racism, regardless of what Jewish names you throw around. Each genocide is unique in its own way, which anyone with a crumb of intelligence will recognize. You are completely off the rails to suggest that the entire “Jewish community” touts Bernard Lewis. You need to do a lot more reading than you apparently do before coming out with such offensive nonsense.
To Petros
The French President’s stand for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide is not for altruistic reasons or to make amends for France’s dormant guilt since the French soldiers padded the hooves of their horses and evacuated Cilicia in the middle of the night and thus reneged on their promise to the Armenians for which 21 young Armenians idealists gave their lives in the battle of Arara. I believe France and his Presidents would have continued to remain in a deep slumber had it not been Turkey’s interest to join European Union exasperating France’s simmering problems with its Muslim Subjects.
I am not sure what has Russian President Putin done for Armenia that has not been for his country’s best interest as well. I know that Russia’s imperial ambitions of Armenia without Armenians is very much alive as they continue to offer incentives for Armenians to move to Russia and no one can stop it.
Yes, the President of United State is indebted differently to different constituents. That is the unfortunate fact of life in this capitalistic society.
Again, let us cease the moment and deal the best way we can the deck of cards we have. I am afraid that President Obama may not even utter the word Medz Yeghern this upcoming April after hearing his mouthpiece, John Kerry the so-called long supporter of Armenian issues from Massachusetts.
I get it, Vahe, that other nations’ stand for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide is not [only] for altruistic reasons. But in many instances politicians find the courage to do certain things even if they’re guided by narrowly political considerations. President of France also is indebted differently to his different constituents (France’s Turks and Muslims, etc.). President of Russia also is indebted differently to different constituents (Russia’s Azeris and Muslims, etc.). I could lambast your points regarding France and Russia’s motivations for Armenia, but I don’t want to start yet another heated debate on the subject that other posters had in other threads.
One thing is clear. If it is only the President of United States who is indebted differently to different constituents and that is the unfortunate fact of life in the capitalistic society that only the United States represents of itself, then there was no need for Mr. Obama to promise at the top of his voice to recognize the Armenian Genocide as president. End of discussion.
[I am afraid that President Obama may not even utter the word Medz Yeghern this upcoming April.] —You don’t have to. The word “medz yeghern” now looming in the presidential statement does virtually no difference for the English-speaking American public at large. Those few who’d take interest in knowing from the White House what the word means, most probably are said that it means “great calamity” or “great crime” in Armenian. What calamity? What crime? Where did it befall from? Who committed it? Who were the victims? Who were the perpetrators? I mean, with or without the word, it is still unclear who the perpetrators were and that this “calamity” or “crime” is not just any calamity or any crime, but a crime against humanity that has an internationally adopted legal connotation. In the English language it reads as follows: Genocide.
To “Diran”:
“Your comment is nothing but abhorrent racism regardless of what Jewish names you throw around”
Wow, did I just hit a nerve, “Diran”?
And which part of my comment, may I ask, was “abhorrently racist”? Let’s see, according to you, reading the “other side of the story” like everyone else does against Armenians makes me an “abhorrent racist”, but yet AG deniers get a pass in your book huh? Since you are an Armenian, and not a hypocrite, I guess it is also your opinion that people like Henry Kissinger, Madeline Albright, Joe Lieberman, Bruce Fein, Abe Foxman, Shimon Peres, the ADL, AIPAC and the entire Israeli Government itself are ‘abhorrent racists’ – RIGHT?? After all they have all damaged the AG recognition process through sophisticated denial hate-speech campaigns against the Armenian Genocide, and thus the Armenian people and nation – RIGHT??
Plus where did I say “entire Jewish community” in my post? I said the “Jewish Community” which means that the Jewish Community is accepting of their status as Armenian Genocide deniers, as decided by their leadership, not individuals. As far as I can tell ‘abhorrent racists’ who are “community leaders” like Bernard Lewis and Abe Foxman and others are still in operation and doing quite well – shouldn’t these people have been condemned, ridiculed and fired for being ‘abhorrent racists’? Or are you placing Armenians to a higher standard?
o “Genocide Observation”: Yes, you hit a nerve, and thank goodness I have that one. And, no, I do not hold Armenians to a higher standard. That idea is just more bigotry. But to get back to the point: A community is a whole group of people. Your implication is that touting Lewis is a group characteristic of the “Jewish community”. That is your racism. Is Norman Finkelstein a member of the “Jewish community” or did you minus him for the sake of your argument. And what about the Jewish intellectuals mentioned below (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis)?
Yair Auron suggested that “Lewis’ stature provided a lofty cover for the Turkish national agenda of obfuscating academic research on the Armenian Genocide”.[30] Israel Charny wrote that Lewis’ “seemingly scholarly concern… of Armenians constituting a threat to the Turks as a rebellious force who together with the Russians threatened the Ottoman Empire, and the insistence that only a policy of deportations was executed, barely conceal the fact that the organized deportations constituted systematic mass murder”.[31] Charny compares the “logical structures” employed by Lewis in his denial of the genocide to those employed by Ernst Noltein his Holocaust negationism.
To “Diran”:
Jewish Community means their community in representative form, not every single Jew there is. Stop misquoting me and misinterpreting my post to meet your repugnant agenda. And don’t be afraid to answer my questions. Put your money where your mouth is, and show how Anti-Armenian bigots like Lewis, Lieberman, Cohen and Foxman have been condemned for their actions… not only have they not been condemned, they are still anti-Armenian bigots who go on about their daily lives as if nothing happened, which it is clear to me, that strangely, you have no issue with. But me making a mere suggestion in reading Holocaust denial alongside those very same people who would like to present Armenian Genocide denial propaganda makes me an ‘abhorrent racist’ huh? Perhaps it is you who is the abhorrent racist.
Its good you pointed out Yair Auron… I suggest you actually read the book to find out what is written in there where he does not back down in implicating racist Jews. These names you claim “I’m throwing around” are Jews who wish no harm to the recognition of the AG. Finkelstein, Auron, Schiff and the like are on our side not because they are pro-Armenian or anti-Turkish, it is because they are honest and believe in justice. And at this point I will modify what I said above of the group in question in my previous post… they are actually not ‘abhorrent racists’, but something much worse and far beyond that. They have actually gone further from “presenting the other side” and have actively engaged in their bigoted anti-Armenian propaganda campaign, and have cause our pursuit for justice considerable harm in wasting money, time and resources. Think about that very carefully next time you come here carelessly hurling accusation at people.
“Turkey remains genocidal and a lethal threat to Armenia and Armenians. No amount of apology or acknowledgment will ever sincere or enough – it is Genocide Acknowledgment with Accountability” hmm very interesting, then no need to change Turkish policy towards little depopulating Armenia.
What do you want from the Armenians, Tuna? To take the guilt for Ottoman Turks’ crime on themselves? Is it possible to erase from the genetic memory the lives of 1.5 million brutally killed, raped, burnt and buried alive people? And several hundred thousand forcibly deported people? And two-thirds of historical ancestral lands stolen? A criminal must be held accountable for his crime. And this is exactly what the Armenians and many foreign governments are doing. One way for the criminal to cleanse his name is to acknowledge the crime and offer an apology. Unfortunately, Turkey has chosen the denialist and unrepentant way. Well, then the Armenians are left with no other option than to continue their efforts worldwide until the Turkish state repents. If you put yourself in our shoes, you will understand that there is just no other way to hold an unrepentant mass murderer responsible for his crime.