Latest:

Sassounian: Genocide Is the Right Word, Justice Is the Ultimate Goal

President Serge Sarkisian’s comments on Feb. 5 generated much controversy when he reportedly stated at a campaign stop in Yerevan that “tseghasbanoutyoun” (genocide) and “yeghern” (atrocity) are synonymous. He asserted that President Barack Obama, without uttering the word “genocide,” had said “everything.” The Armenian head of state was referring to Obama’s use of the term “Medz Yeghern” (Great Atrocity) rather than “Armenian Genocide” in his annual April 24 commemorative statements.

Raphael Lemkin

Raphael Lemkin

The words yeghern and Medz Yeghern were used by Armenians mostly before Raphael Lemkin coined the term “genocide” in 1943 to describe the organized mass killings of Armenians during the 1915-23 period. Before 1943, Armenians used various expressions to refer to those killings, such as chart (massacre), medz vojir (great crime), aghed (disaster), deghahanoutyoun (deportation), and aksor (exile). However, none of these words have the legal connotation of tseghasbanoutyoun or genocide under international law.

Since 1943, Armenians have spent much time and effort convincing the world that they were the victims of genocide, and are now seeking justice from Turkey under international law. This is the fundamental reason why Armenians demand genocide recognition, not massacres, atrocities, or deportations.

The only reason Obama has used the term Medz Yeghern in his annual statements is to avoid the words Armenian Genocide, in acquiescence to Turkish pressure. If Medz Yeghern and genocide have the same meaning, why doesn’t Obama use the term genocide instead of Medz Yeghern? After all, then-presidential candidate Obama did not promise Armenian-American voters that, if elected, he would recognize the Medz Yeghern; he pledged to recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Thus, all who allege that Medz Yeghern and genocide are synonymous are simply giving Obama a free pass and allowing him not to keep his solemn pledge. They are also undermining several decades of extensive lobbying efforts for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide!

Those who claim equivalence between Medz Yeghern and genocide do it not out of ignorance of Armenian terminology. They know full well that the two words don’t have the same meaning. Their real reason is to declare victory by making people believe that the president of the United States did after all acknowledge the validity of the Armenian Genocide.

There are a couple of fallacies in this approach. First, regardless of what Medz Yeghern means to Armenians, it is a meaningless term to all those who do not speak Armenian. Second, equating Medz Yeghern and genocide to claim success on genocide recognition is a futile exercise. It is really unnecessary to twist the meaning of Obama’s words. The United States recognized the Armenian Genocide as far back as 1951, when the government submitted an official document to the International Court of Justice (World Court) acknowledging the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide as examples of genocide. Another U.S. president, Ronald Reagan, issued a Presidential Proclamation on April 22, 1981, in which he mentioned the Armenian Genocide. Moreover, the House of Representatives acknowledged the Armenian Genocide by adopting two resolutions in 1975 and 1984.

Consequently, there is no longer a pressing need to pursue further acknowledgment of the Armenian Genocide by passing repeated congressional resolutions or demanding that Obama utter the words Armenian Genocide. Nor is there a need to reinterpret Obama’s statements, claiming that by using the term Medz Yeghern he has automatically acknowledged the Armenian Genocide. The only reason Obama should recognize the genocide is to be a man of his word.

It is imperative for Armenians and their supporters to concentrate their efforts on the eve of the centennial of the genocide not on gaining further recognition—an already accomplished fact—but on securing justice for the massive crimes committed against their ancestors a hundred years ago.

Rather than demanding that the U.S. or even Turkey acknowledge the genocide, which would not result in any concrete benefit, Armenians should focus their energies on more meaningful steps, such as filing lawsuits against the Turkish government in national and international courts.

Once Armenians regain their territories and properties from Turkey through legal action or as a result of unexpected geopolitical developments, the Turkish government can go on denying the genocide as long as it wants!

387 Comments on Sassounian: Genocide Is the Right Word, Justice Is the Ultimate Goal

  1. “I became interested in GENOCIDE because it happened so many times. It happened to the Armenians, and after Armenians, Hitler took action.” —Raphael Lemkin, the inventor of the legal term “genocide” based on which a UN Convention was adopted.

  2. Excellent piece Baron Sassounian, finally a voice of reason that sets the record straight. Our community’s focus should indeed be on attaining justice – material and territorial compensation for the Armenian Genocide. This is not about having the US RE-recognize the Genocide but about Turkey mustering up enough courage to confess the truth and sincerely negotiate a legally binding reparations package in court for Armenians.

  3. Mr. Sassounian,

    This is all correct but we’d wish to hear more of your assessment of the shameful statement by the Armenian president. Why the US president stops short of uttering the G-word is somehow understandable, but why the Armenian president sings the same tune is thought-provoking, to say the least.

  4. That is what it boils down to. Turkey and its allies do not want to return what rightfully belongs to the Armenians. Many Turks already accept the Genocide. Many Turks refer to it as soykirim (Genocide), and want it resolved once and for all. Alas they are not the ones in charge of their country’s policies.
    An excellent analysis by Harut Sassounian, as usual. Making our supreme goal very clear. Let’s not lose our perspective in a blurry of semantics here.
    Let’s call a spade a spade, and let’s call a Genocide Genocide (or Tseghasbanoutyoun)…
    It is up to us to educate our Presidents and the masses.
    Thank you Harut.

  5. Bravo! Enough with the articles parsing and praising the term “Medz Yeghern.”

  6. “The United States recognized the Armenian Genocide as far back as 1951…”

    if the US has already recognized your cause, why dont you take action against Turkey and reach your goal? What is it that keeps you from resorting to legal means?

    • Ahmet, are you in a hurry to see your artificial state of Turkey, built upon blood and bones of millions of mass murdered, deported, and mutilated indigenous Christians, dissolved? No? Then do not hasten us. Ancient wiser nations do everything at the right time and under most favorable circumstances. So you better understand, here’s specially for you and other unrepentant, denialist, and unremorseful Turks: “Yavaş Yavaş”.

    • avatar Papken Hartunian // February 13, 2013 at 10:04 pm //

      Mr. Ahmet , you have a valid question. Armenians will answer to Mr. Ahmet’s question and et al. by their top guns not by their soft tongues.

    • Ahmet, look at the comment just below yours; it seems that Petros picked up some Turkish words while I dont know any single Armenian word. Good for you Petros and thanks to Ottoman Hegemony, it means it worked ..

  7. Well stated. I am in total agreement.

  8. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // February 12, 2013 at 3:26 pm // Reply

    Thanks Sassounian for sending Rafael Lemkin’s (1900-1959)photo …
    When Armenian Genocide started he was only 15 year old…
    He was interested in the subject because he was real human…
    Most probably he was reading the tragic events in detail through many languages he knew.
    This reminds me when I was 15 years old …remembering every event and singing our songs…It is the most powerful age when your ability will appear through any direction, bad or good…
    Rafael was born during that event which affected his psychology …
    And he knew very well what Ottoman’s were doing against minorities…
    Being Jew he did mention about jews but he mentioned about Armenian Genocide.
    ( an editor advised me to write Genocide by capital letter)

    I need psychologist to give me more information regarding this age dangerous age on every one…!!!

    SP

  9. avatar Onur Yildirim // February 12, 2013 at 3:29 pm // Reply

    “Rather than demanding that the U.S. or even Turkey acknowledge the genocide, which would not result in any concrete benefit, Armenians should focus their energies on more meaningful steps, such as filing lawsuits against the Turkish government in national and international courts.”

    I could not disagree more. Do you care THAT much about material compensation? Does “justice” only mean monetary compensation and return of properties? Why do all these Armenian organizations exist that have among their main goals Turkish recognition and apology? You don’t even care if the state that murdered your ancestors acknowledges their crime as long as you and your country get their due compensation? That’s just sad.

    “Once Armenians regain their territories and properties from Turkey through legal action or as a result of unexpected geopolitical developments, the Turkish government can go on denying the genocide as long as it wants!”

    Once? Once what? Once something unexpected happens? Is that your only hope? Forget legal action, a court in California can award Armenians all of Turkey, its meaningless if you have no means to enforce it. So all we have is an “unexpected” geopolitical development? You’re basing your hopes on something bad to happen to Turkey? Perhaps Kurds forming a state and taking parts of eastern Turkey- historical western Armenia?….. Let me know when there is a real plan that may be of actual concern to Turkey.

    • Material compensation is actually a needle in a haystack. So Onur, Armenians who had been living on their ancestral lands for millennia, lost more than material and lands with the cowardly acts of genocide… how do you propose Turkey pay for it’s extermination of 2/3 of Armenians and their millennia old culture, traditions, arts, etc. What we salvaged was a tiny part of what our culture was. Each of our towns, villages, cities was a culture unto itself, and each richer than the other. Each area of today’s eastern Turkey in the Armenian Highlands had its own music, foods, arts, dances, dress and everything else. If Turkey loses most of its population today, not a single shred of culture would be lost, because everything they practice culture-wise is someone else’s while claiming those very same cultures they stole their identity from was actually stolen from them, the Turks. Whether you are Turk or Kurd, you will never feel the extent of our loss.

    • Arrogance will not fend off the inevitable return of material and territorial assets onur efendi. So don’t fret; you will be notified of plans to reclaim Armenian assets within the same time frame your ancestors gave Armenians before murdering them in 1915.

    • I happen to be on your side and in no particular hurry so take your time.

  10. Indeed, let us stop spreading hatred towards our neighboring Turks every year on April 24th and, let us work for getting justice from the Turkish government for what its predecessors took from us and did to us

    • Aram (if this is your real name). No one’s “spreading hatred”; you sound a la Turk. Demanding justice and spreading hatred are two divergently different and totally incompatable things. Also, your neighboring Turks keep the borders with Armenia closed, the economic and transportation blockade of Armenia imposed, and bilateral diplomatic relations unestablished. Go figure who’s spreading hatred. Then come back and we’ll talk.

    • Aram:

      you are right, we Armenians should stop the hatred towards our dear Turk neighbors. After all, they have been so nice to us Armenians all these years. Why just last year our dear Turkish neighbors organized a massive rally in Istanbul to publicly show their love and affection for their Armenian neighbors.

      Allow me to share some of the lovely placards displayed during the massive rally:

      “All Armenians are bastards”
      “Today Taksim, Tomorrow Yerevan”
      “We will bury you on Mt. Agri (sic)”

      Placards displayed by tens of thousands of Turks during an Officially sanctioned Anti Armenian demonstration at Taksim square (2012), attended by the Interior Minister of Turkey (….who also made an Anti Armenian speech). Got that ? Officially Sanctioned: means approved and endorsed by the Turkish State.

      Tell your Turkish friends to stop trying to snuff out RoA, get their nomadic invader noses out of NKR’s internal affairs, stop their worldwide AG Denialist campaign, stop savagely beating up defenseless Armenian senior citizens, and stop murdering the few remaining Armenians in Turkey, – the we’ll see about April 24. OK arkadaş ?

    • When the Jews want to talk about their Genocide, they call the perpetrators “Nazis” rather than Germans because the Germans today have accepted responsibility of their past actions. There isn’t an equivalent term for Turks, because first and foremost the act and denial of Genocide is today’s Turkish policy. When we say “Turk” it is generally the typical extremist Turk in denial of the Genocide, which I would safely guess to be the majority of Turks (through the successful brainwashing activity of their government).

      The Turkish government has taken it upon itself to speak on behalf of all Turks, and that happens to be denial of Genocide. We know very well not all Turks are the same, and some are so honorable, we cannot imagine any person of higher standing. But remember that the burden of clearing the Turkish name and honor falls on the Turkish government, and not on the Armenian victims.

    • Aram, Can you please tell Avery that why he just try to look on the dark side. There are thousands of people who called themselves as Armenians after Hrant Dink died, in order to protest his murder. Also Abdullah Ocalan has an Armenian-origin known as ” Artin Agopyan ” who supported by millions of Kurd population in Turkey. Long story short, ”we” love you guys. Sincerely ” your leftovers ”

  11. avatar Maxime Gauin // February 12, 2013 at 4:34 pm // Reply

    “Raphael Lemkin coined the term “genocide” in 1943 to describe the organized mass killings of Armenians during the 1915-23 period.”
    Lemkin coined this word to describe the Holocaust.

    • {The report has also revealed that a news website, http://www.turquie-news.fr, which is popular among young Turks in the country, is administered by a French person who works for the French intelligence service……………..

      The news website has a policy of opposing the Armenian claims of genocide.

      ……“This website is officially administered by one of our esteemed intelligence officials. Upon our order our employee has gone against the education in history he received and lobbies in favor of the Turks. His education in history strengthens his ties with the Turks. He is now serving as an intern at a nationalist think tank in Ankara. Thanks to his efforts, we learn the working principles of our Turkish colleagues and their attitude toward opponents in France — mainly Armenians and Kurds,” says the report….

      ….Sources told Today’s Zaman on condition of anonymity that the intelligence official in question is historian and researcher Maxime Gauin, who has written books against Armenian claims of genocide. He is currently an intern at the International Strategic Research Organization (USAK) in Ankara…… } (TodaysZaman March 30, 2012)

    • Maxime,

      To be perfectly precise, Lemkin coined the word “genocide” to describe the mass annihilation of the Armenians, Jews, and the Assyrians, not just to describe the Holocaust.

    • avatar Berge Jololian // February 12, 2013 at 10:40 pm //

      A 1949 interview in which Dr. Raphael Lemkin discusses the Armenian genocide.

      Lemkin, who is credited for coining the word “genocide” in 1943 to describe the 1915 genocide of the Armenians and then the Holocaust, has also played an important role in compelling the United Nations to adopt the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in 1948.

      Prior to the use of the word “genocide”, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and other world leaders described the mass killings as the “Armenian holocaust.”

      Furthermore, the word holocaust comes from the ancient Greek, olos meaning “whole” and kaustos or kautos meaning “burnt.” Appearing as early as the fifth century B.C.E.

      We cannot help but ask ourselves, had the world community used its full energy and resources to speak out against the Armenian Genocide, might the world have become more aware and more forcibly interceded against the destruction of European Jewry during the time of the Nazis?

      When will the state of Israel stop denying the Armenian genocide?

      The world doesn’t take seriously what American Jewish leaders have to say about the 6 million Jews killed during World War II, not when it sees the same Jewish leaders lobby the US Congress against acknowledging the Genocide of Armenians and quite everyone over the murders of 1.5 million other innocents.

      The inscriptions from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington reads, “Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” – Adolf Hitler on the eve of the invasion of Poland and destruction of European Jewry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitler_Armenian_Quote.JPG

    • Yes he did, Lemkin coined this word to describe the Holocaust… the Armenian one before anything else.

    • Watch the video above Gauin-oglu:

      Interviewer: “Dr Lemkin, could you give us a little background on how you became interested in this Genocide…”
      Dr. Lemkin” …..because it happened so many times. It happened to Armenians, and after the Armenians, Hitler took action…”

      I guess being a denialist Turkophile intelligence agent has not only affected your intelligence, it must have affected your ability to process real audiovisual data. As has been seen on numerous prior occasions, Denialism affects other parts of the brain. There is no question that after a thorough study, this condition – Denialitis – will be recognized as a treatable disease.

      Apparently Dr Lemkin himself saying ‘Armenian Genocide, Armenian Genocide’ does not mean Armenian Genocide for those who exist in Denialverse, an alternative Universe where strange, unexplained mental phenomena are the norm.

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 13, 2013 at 1:16 pm //

      “I guess being a denialist Turkophile intelligence agent has not only affected your intelligence, it must have affected your ability to process real audiovisual data.”
      The allegations of being “an intelligence agent” are based on the interpretation of a crude fake. The official letter of the minister of Interior Claude Guéant to the Turkish ambassador, in 2012, settled definitely the issue. Anyway, everybody who speaks French and knows France (unlike the ignorant correspondent of “Today’s Zaman” in Paris) is able to understand alone that it is a grotesque fake.
      Regarding the “ability to process real audiovisual data,” the misunderstanding is yours. There is a difference between “Lemkin said: ‘Armenian genocide’” and “Lemkin coined the word ‘genocide’ in 1943 to describe the elimination of the Ottoman Armenians”. Lemkin also alleged that the fate of Slovenians during WWII was a genocide, an interpretation which is endorsed by no specialist of Nazi Germany, and that the destruction of Carthage was another genocide, an allegation which is merely ridicule for most of the historians of Ancient Time.

    • Gauin has decided that he is going to deny the fact of the Armenian Genocide no matter what. Facts, evidence, historical truth do not matter to him. I don’t know what his motivation is for distorting the truth so zealously but he is certainly very impatient and intolerant when he encounters anything that provides support for the fact of the Armenian Genocide. He is an activist denialist.

      On top of that Gauin is very arrogant for no good reason. He could at least try to be a bit more careful when making statements but he does not even bother checking facts that are publicly available to everyone, such as the video above. Just goes on with his statements. Of course, he can never be wrong.

      Yet he also likes to pretend that he is so well-read and thorough in his research.

      To state so confidently and categorically: “Lemkin coined this word to describe the Holocaust” while one can clearly hear Lemkin HIMSELF using the term with regards to Armenians is laughable. Lemkin states it very simply. Unless one has a comprehension problem there should be no doubt about what he says.

    • Lemkin coined his word to define a class of crimes that have occurred throughout history and his point of departure in perfecting that concept was the Armenian Genocide. The Holocaust by itself does not constitute a class of crimes.

    • avatar Random Armenian // February 15, 2013 at 2:24 am //

      ” “Raphael Lemkin coined the term “genocide” in 1943 to describe the organized mass killings of Armenians during the 1915-23 period.”
      Lemkin coined this word to describe the Holocaust. ”

      Yes, the Holocaust was the final motivation for coming up with a word to describe “a crime with no name” as Churchill called what the Nazis were doing. And yes that original quoted sentence is clumsy, but Lemkin always had the Armenian Genocide in mind and as an example of genocide and he made it abundantly clear when he coined the word and when pushing for the genocide convention.

      Also the word “genocide” was first revealed in 1944 in a publication of Lemkin’s work “Axis Rule in Occupied Europe.

      However, his interest in such crimes began with the Armenian case before WWII. He even pushed for an international law on mass murder in 1933. He based this on the Armenian and Assyrian (1933) cases. He had not coined the word yet at that time, but he was

      The world had an opportunity to pass a law on genocide before WWII, but did not listen.

      It seems that in order to deny the Armenian Genocide, people are also slyly undermining Lemkin and his work.

  12. “Once Armenians regain their territories and properties from Turkey through legal action or as a result of unexpected geopolitical developments, the Turkish government can go on denying the genocide as long as it wants!”

    Well, Mr. Sassounian, don’t you think that as a result of “unexpected geopolitical developments” Armenia as a state may disappear from the face of the world, after which yet-to-be-assimilated remnants of the extinguishing Armenian nation can go an writing such pieces, as yours, as long as they want?
    Keep dreaming, Harut-jan. And do continue amusing us with your writings.

    • “Great analysis” from Karabekir Pasha!

      May I remind you that as a result of geopolitical developments that happened not too long ago, I mean the break-up of the mighty USSR (who could ever imagine?), Armenia didn’t disappear but managed to regain ancient Armenian territory form your Azeri brothers. Don’t talk so big, you never know.

    • avatar Berge Jololian // February 12, 2013 at 11:10 pm //

      We are coming in droves to take back our lands – we will take back what rightfully belongs to Armenians: Land, Reparation, and Restitution. We will *Never* give up the fight to take back Ararat, Ani, Kars, Ardahan, Artvin, Van, Erzurum, Erzingan, Moush, Sassoun.

      To the Turk occupier: Your predecessor Talaat Pasha promised to allow a single Armenian to survive the Genocide–as a museum exhibit. We have lived in Asia Minor for 4,350 years–millennia before your marauding Central Asian ancestors knew there was a world outside their Mongolian wilderness homeland. We will reclaim our lands no matter how many diplomatic and intellectual gymnastics you indulge in to deny the undeniable.

  13. avatar Berge Jololian // February 12, 2013 at 5:44 pm // Reply

    Most Armenians debate aimlessly and endlessly either for the need of a Turkish apology, or an acknowledgment, or a vague undefined-justice, and some Armenians don’t want anything. Lately, most Armenians have turned linguists, translators and interpreters.

    I think Mr. Sassounian missed the point by using the vague word “Justice”. Yeah, I want justice. It does not relay much. It still keeps me clueless as to what is Justice. According to Turks, “Justice” could be renovating an old-Armenian Church and maybe open the border with Armenia as a form of compensation.

    The word “Genocide” was coined by the Jurist Raphael Lemkin in 1943 to describe the 1915 genocide of the Armenians.

    When Dr. Lemkin was asked how he became interested in the Armenian genocide, he explained: “I became interested in genocide because it happened to the Armenians”. – (Source: CBS News Interview, 1948 on the occasion of the United Nations adopting the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide – which cites the Armenian Genocide as an example).

    Why then other attempt to call the Armenian Genocide by a different word?
    – > To remove the genocidal criminal element of “Intent”.

    The International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) refers to the events as the Armenian Genocide

    Why then refer to it by different label?
    –> To free Turkey from Accountability: land, reparation and restitution.

    What matters is the *accountability* and specifically Armenian owned lands, assets, wealth of Armenians confiscated, not to mention the lives of 2 million people brutally murdered, reparation and restitution.

    Turkey remains genocidal and a lethal threat to Armenia and Armenians. No amount of apology or acknowledgment will ever be sincere or enough – it is Genocide Acknowledgment with *Accountability* that matters.

    Genocide Acknowledgment without Accountability is hollow and meaningless.

    Acknowledgment must be accompanied with accountability; otherwise, the acknowledgment is worse than the denial.

    Accountability means land, reparation and restitution. A good example of land recovery is Artzakh.

    Beware of a solution (acknowledgment without accountability) that is worse than the problem (denial).

    Prior to the use of the word “genocide”, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and other world leaders described the events as the “Armenian holocaust.”

    • Berge,”Turkey remains genocidal and a lethal threat to Armenia and Armenians. No amount of apology or acknowledgment will ever be sincere or enough – it is Genocide Acknowledgment with *Accountability* that matters.
      Genocide Acknowledgment without Accountability is hollow and meaningless.
      Acknowledgment must be accompanied with accountability; otherwise, the acknowledgment is worse than the denial. ”
      I totally agree with your above lines & I personally believe in it & all our leaders should follow this line of thinking.’Acknowledgement’ with ‘Accountability’ will stop Turkey from being a lethal threat to Armenia & become a peaceful neighbor forever.
      We have to think about our future where we’ll have no more threats of existence.The Genocide has never left us & will never leave us until ‘Acknowledgement’ & Accountability’ are applied.

    • avatar Harut Sassounian // February 22, 2013 at 5:04 pm //

      Berge,

      I did not miss the point. I suggest you read my column once again and get off your high horse. Please do not waste your time attacking my column, instead of attacking the denialists. I clearly state in my final paragraph what justice means. It is not some nebulous concept. Justice means regaining everything we lost as a result of the genocide, including Western Armenia!

    • avatar Berge Jololian // February 26, 2013 at 2:33 pm //

      Mr. Sassounian,

      Justice needs to be defined in clear razor sharp terms. We have no disagreement. It is the effectiveness of the message.

      Take a read of the comments produced under this article, and you will see that they are at the genocide dispute level (arguing endlessly the details of the genocide with Turks), rather than focusing on discussions that shape up in crystal clear razor sharp demands discussing accountability: land, reparation and restitution.

      I hope that on the next April 24th commemoration, we will not see aimless flag waving Armenians with weeping and victimization toothless messages (if any), such as “Turkey Repent”, or “Never Again”.

      Turks will pay attention when the message is about accountability for the worst crime humanity has given it a name: Genocide.

      Here are few samples:
      Turkey is accountable for its crime of genocide.
      Erdogan: Eastern Anatolia is Western Armenia.
      Genocidal-Turkey occupies the Armenian homeland.
      US State Department STOP covering up Turkey’s genocidal crimes.
      Genocide acknowledgment with Accountability.
      Keep Turkey out of the European Union.
      We want Accountability: land, reparation, restitution.

  14. http://asbarez.com/87727/us-embassy-in-armenia-clarifies-biden-youtube-statement/

    Sarkisian asked Obama not to recognize the genocide in 2010 when the protocols were happening. But everyone’s forgotten about it, apparently.

  15. Just to make clear. if the lands will be returned, who is going to live there? If Armenians, how many of them will go back from US or Europe? If Turks and kurds, how to make sure Armenia won’t elect Turkish president in future? realistically,.what to do with over 20mil people who currently live on our land?

    • avatar Berge Jololian // February 12, 2013 at 10:51 pm //

      This is an old, tired and infantile-thinking idea – have you got anything new to say?

      Accountability means land, reparation and restitution. A good example of land recovery is Artzakh.

      Canada is so big and has such a small population; following your idea, Canada is some 80% empty. Should Canada relinquish claims?

      Let me ask you a question George Efendi; Are the lives of 2 million people brutally murdered in the genocide worth anything?

    • Berge, Canada has no connection to.reality i. Western Armenia. Neither Artsakh. Armenians were present in Artsakh, even azeris were trying to wipe them off using Soviet army (operation Koltso), they could not. Armenians in Artskh wdre fighting cor their land and families. However if you know history, where are Armenians of Nahidjevan? And I will answer – same place where Armenians of west Armenia. All over the world.

      So question is remaining, what to do with land and peoe that currently are living there?
      I think that practically it is extremely hard to deal with such a things. probably the best way to go is to make very complicated procedures for obtaining Armenian citizenship (applicant must be fluent in Armenian, know history, have Armenian ancestry etc.)

    • George, almost a quarter of Turkey’s population lives in Istanbul. And as Berge said, Canada is bigger than the US with 10% of US population. Russia is the biggest country in the world, and hardly with a significant population. In peaceful Genocide reparations, what it comes down to is, Turkey effectively moving its population to other areas through incentives. With the invasion of Cyprus, they filled the island with Turks to show how those poor “Turkish Cypriots” need protection. Turkey must do the same thing with the western region of Armenia, but in reverse.

    • George Bey,

      After the Jews were expelled from Spain in the 15th century, a small number of them settled in Palestine. In the 17th century some 1,500 Jews settled in Jerusalem. In the 18th century, some Eastern European Jews settled in Palestine. Several waves of Jewish migration to Palestine, known as Aliyahs, brought just about 350,000 Jews to Palestine altogether. The first wave in the 19th century brought just several thousands of Jews who fled pogroms in Eastern Europe. The Second Aliyah in the early 20th century brought another 40,000 Jews, although half of them left afterwards. When in 1922 the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine, the population of the area at the time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for just 11%(!) of the population. By the end of WWII and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the Jewish population of Palestine was just about 30-33% of the total population. Nevertheless, we now have a Jewish nation-state in the ocean of Arabs. If you’re intellectually capable, ask yourself a question as to how realistically was it possible for the Jews to recreate their nation-state amongst the hugely outnumbering Muslims and not to have an Arab president? Then draw some parallels with the Armenian situation, if you can.

    • to petros,
      to begin with, you do not need to make turkish edition of my name. Secondly if you are intellectually capable you should calm down and analyze Jewish migration back to Israel and you will understand that there are no parallels with Armenian case. And I’m not saying we are not capable to come back to our land, I am saying I do not see any work in that direction (other than speaking). Prove I’m wrong, however I do not think we should discuss this issue openly on the website, I would prefer private chat (either on some Armenian – (www.armenia-online.ru) forum or skype, or any other source).

      to Hagop,

      there are no peaceful methods to relocate population. So far this is one of the solid reasons to many countries to not give lands back. In Israel, they are building new settlements over and over. They are doing great job and doing it right – it is a question of national security. In the scope of what I just said – I do not understand sargsyan (Armanian president) that does not populate security belt around Artsakh. And what is most stupid, seems like he is proud of it (at least nalbandyan always saying it loud).

    • “[…] there are no peaceful methods to relocate population”, says George who asks not to make Turkish edition of his name. Wrong. The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey (specially for you George, in Turkish: Mübadele), which involved the Greek Orthodox citizens of Turkey and the Turkish/Muslim citizens of Greece, was an agreed and peaceful mutual expulsion and relocation based on a convention signed at Lausanne. Approximately 2 million people were peacefully relocated from both sides.

    • There’s not much to analyze, George not Bey. The fact speaks for itself that after nearly 2000 years of virtually no Jewish presence in Palestine, a Jewish nation-state was re-established. What better parallel with the Armenian case do you need? There were almost no Jews on those lands but they migrated there to establish their nation-state. Moreover, being a minority they managed to have a head os state of their own ethnicity, not an Arab. I believe I answered your comment above as factually as I can. Armenians are known to be an industrious and innovative nation; don’t worry about re-populating our lands. Worry about Turkey to wash off the stain of a murderer- and unrepentant state!

    • to Petros:
      There was nothing peaceful in population exchange between Greece and turkey. According to your logic you can name separation of Germany on democratic and federal part and annexation of territories also peaceful!
      Also we are not talking about population exchange of land exchange or peaceful separation (there are plenty of examples for that). Let me make it clear one more time:
      Today in West Armenia:
      population of Armenians is close to 0
      population of hostile muslims (including turks and kurds): is around 15 mill
      We are not going to exchange anything. We want our land back. Without those 15 mill or more. Perhaps turkey is paying us and giving land back! What to do with all those people? (although I gave my idea on that in one of the previous answers. However it is the most difficult question and it is question of national security).
      By the way if comparing to Israel – they do have strongest lobby in the world and strong allies. Does Armenia has?
      One more thing – if you would be intelligent you would figure out that I’m not a turk and would stop making comments about my name, but concentrate on the real issue: Armenian-turkish one

    • avatar Harut Sassounian // February 22, 2013 at 5:07 pm //

      George,

      I dealt with this issue in a column I wrote several months ago. The issue is not who is going to live there. The only issue is that those lands are ours and we want it back. It is nobody’s business what we do with them.
      If you have a million dollar sitting in the bank and you are not using it, should someone else say since you are not using the money, you don’t need it? It is your money and you do with it as you please.

  16. Once again, Harut, you are absolutely correct on every point. The Turks want us to call what they did to us by any other name or phrase than Armenian Genocide. They know that all other terminology dilutes their accountability and responsibility. Thanks for again hammering this home.

    You are especially on the mark in saying: “Rather than demanding that the U.S. or even Turkey acknowledge the genocide, which would not result in any concrete benefit, Armenians should focus their energies on more meaningful steps, such as filing lawsuits against the Turkish government in national and international courts.”

    I would only add that those of us who know exactly where our properties are, and clearly know what was stolen from our parents, should make sure that there is signed documentation in a safe place.

  17. And yet the current uproar is easy to understand, it was aimed at our (RoA) President.

    First; in those mentioned years (1951, 1975, 1981 & 1984), Armenians were hibernating. Armenia was part of USSR and Artsakh was part of Azerbaijan. Suddenly we achieved self-governance and soon after we liberated Artsakh. Hence the momentum for Genocide recognition was revived stronger than ever; everything could be at reach now. Even Kocharian & Oskanian, had made it the No 1 priority for Armenian Foreign Affairs.

    Second; it is very unfortunate that our (RoA) President came up with such a strange statement in the middle of a campaign for re-election. Why now? Surely he was not concerned with the man on the street in Armenia, the voter, who didn’t pay much attention to his remarks. He had already secured his re-election by making promises to his oligarch friends that it will be “business” as usual for them. Now he has hinted that, there might be even more “business”, Armenian style, for the 41 millionaire elite members of Parliament, if Genocide was watered down. After all, everything is for sale in Armenia, even the recognition of the way our 1.5 million martyrs died.

    Armenians worldwide believe that if the biggest NATO member recognizes the Armenian Genocide loud and clear, it will put an immense pressure on Turkey to follow suit, or at least it will sour its relations with the US, will contribute to its isolation within the EU space and internationally, and will weaken it severely within NATO. Granted, geopolitical weakening will also bring us closer to obtaining justice.

  18. John jan, I am Armenian and I reside half of the year in Hayastan.

    • If it is true that you’re an Armenian and reside half of the year in Hayastan, then stop spreading rubbish about Armenians’ spreading hatred towards your neighboring Turks. Armenians didn’t mass murder the Turks and steal their ancestral lands. Armenians didn’t destroy Turks’ cultural structures and edifices (if there’s such a thing as uniquely Turkish culture, after all). Armenian president never threatened to drop bombs on Turkey as Turkish president Turgut Ozal did in regards to Armenia. Armenian students never held demonstrations with threatening slogans full of hatred, such as “You are all Armenians, you are all Bastards”, “Today Taksim, tomorrow Yerevan, we will suddenly descend upon you one night”, “Mount Ararat will become your grave”, and “Let Armenia be wiped out”.

      Go reside half of the year in Istanbul where your neighboring Turkish cowards in their best traditions mutilate and kill Armenian elders. Then come back and will we’ll continue talking.

  19. Please read Mr. Ugur Ungor & Mehmet Polatetel’s “Confiscation and Destruction – The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property”.
    It is a very well researched & detailed work.An example:
    “Most important,the highly politicized archive of the land registers (tapu kayitlari) remains closed due to Turkish fears of potential Armenian material claims.These records,stored at the Land Register General Directorate (Tapu Kadastro Genel Mudurlugu),contain the (presumably) highly detailed account books of confiscated Armenian property.In August 2005 Turkey’s powerful Council for National Security (Milli Guvenlik Kurulu) strongly & confidentially admonished the archive staff not to disclose their material because ‘the data could be abused for the purpose of unfounded Genocide & property claims’.2 ‘Tapu Arsivlerini “Sinirli” Kullanin’ Hurriyet,19 September 2006.

  20. After spending the last 4 years repeating the baseless “great calamity” translation of Medz Yeghern every chance he got and influencing others to do the same, Mr. Sassounian has suddenly found that it is not a morally neutral term like calamity after all, but one which implies evil intent. What opened his eyes at this late date? Was it a dictionary he did not have access to back in 2009 when he flatly informed the president that Medz Yeghern only meant calamity, thus only encouraging him to use it to avoid using genocide? And if the Armenian world should get beyond the insistence on genocide recognition (since he asserts that has already been accomplished), why is he emphasizing the word so much? Which side of that issue is he on? Both? In conclusion, I entirely agree with Onur Yildirim that it is very sad (and very strange, I will add) that we should not even care that the state that murdered our ancestors acknowledges its crime as long as there are some dubious possibilities of compensation on the horizon.

    • And what prevents the state that murdered our ancestors from acknowledging its crime? Please clarify, Diran.

    • Berj: What prevents it? Let’s get past anti-Armenian propaganda ingrained into the minds of millions of Turks via the school systems and look at it simply from the governments perspective. Why would the Turkish government recognize the Armenian genocide? They only reason I can think of is that it would be the right thing to do. But on what planet do governments just do things because its the “right thing to do”? By denying, the Turkish government has to pay no reparations, does not have to face its past, and the territorial integrity of Turkey faces no additional threat. So really, why WOULD the murderer state acknowledge its crime?

    • RVDV, somebody else is using your avatar.

      you should sue: you can claim ‘first use’ and ask the judge for an injunction.
      I will testify that you used it first.

    • Avery: Thanks for looking out for me lol. Onur Yildirim is my real name, I decided to use it for once :)

    • “By denying, the Turkish government has to pay no reparations, does not have to face its past, and the territorial integrity of Turkey faces no additional threat. So really, why WOULD the murderer state acknowledge its crime?”
      RVDV,I totally agree with your above lines.The enormity of what was confiscated by the Young Turks is unbelievable.Mr. Ugur Ungor & Mehmet Polatetel’s “Confiscation and Destruction – The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property” book details all, to the extent that the current Turkish economy is based on what was confiscated & stolen from the Armenians.

    • RDVD,are you the Onur Yildirim historian (Cham Albania) or the contemporary composer?

    • I get that, RVDV. And since the reasons for not acknowledging their crime, that you and I know well, still exist in the Turkish society and show no signs of waning, then Armenians should do what? Sit and wait until the Turkish government deigns to understand that recognition of crimes is the right thing to do? Or pursue other venues?

    • But on what planet do governments just do things because it’s the “right thing to do”?

      On planet Earth, RVDV. When German Chancellor Willy Brandt, apparently spontaneously, knelt down at the monument to victims of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1970 showing respect and remorse for the Jewish victims of German repressions and mass murder, he felt he was doing the right thing. He could have avoided such an explicit gesture, but apparently he thought it was a right thing to do. But Willy Brandt was German, a representative of a nation that has a high level of civilizational maturity and a proven record of their ability to cleanse themselves from the crimes of their predecessors.

    • Berj: Barring some massive geo-political shift, (which though it is possible I think it unwise to wait for such an event that may not even happen) I think it’s unlikely for Armenia and Armenians to get recognition, apology, reparations, and territory transfer. In fact I think its impossible. So as to what Armenians should do? I don’t really know. It’s a tough position to be in, but I suggest at least entertaining the idea of a compromise… either on the recognition or reparations… and I know such a suggestion is very unpopular. I think it’s the most realistic way forward, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have moral objections to it myself.

      VTiger: No, neither. My first or last name are not uncommon among Turks.

    • RVDV:

      In my personal opinion, and it may be unpopular with my fellow-Armenians, reparations should have an upper hand over an apology and recognition. In a sense, reparations will imply an apology and recognition. Many Armenians would say that one (reparations) cannot happen without the other (recognition), and I understand their point. It is that we prioritize things differently. Also, “compromise” is not the proper word to use for a cause that pursues justice for the nearly-annihilated nation and their loss of ancient homeland. Hope you’d agree. There can be no “compromise” between the murderer and the victim.

    • Berj: ” In a sense, reparations will imply an apology and recognition”

      Yes, yes it would, but what kind of apology, what kind of recognition? There doesn’t have to be genocide for a state to offer an apology and recognize the atrocities of its past. So Turkey would not necessarily have to say it was genocide for it to pay reparations. War crimes, and lesser crimes against humanity, and ethnic cleansing are crimes that can warrant reparations as well. I would hold both recognition and reparations as the same in terms of priority. Reparations without explicit acknowledgement would seem like a hollow victory.

      Regarding compromise. You asked me what Armenians should do.. I assumed this meant what should Armenians do to find a plausible solution to the problem. I don’t believe under current conditions that Armenia can get full recognition AND full reparations. Now you could sit and wait for some massive geo-political shift that may or may not happen, like the break off of Kurdistan for example, or we can think of ways to resolve this issue under the current conditions. Is it a great suggestion? Probably not. Will Armenians be happy with a compromise? But it’s all I got.

  21. avatar ragnar naess // February 13, 2013 at 7:58 am // Reply

    what is going on behind the closed doors when mr. Sassounian who repeatedly has been branding consecutive US presidents for refusing to acknowledge that what happened in 1915-23 was genocide, now holds that the US in fact acknowledged this offcially years ago?

  22. The truth is, Turkey has already acknowledged some of the grave errors from the past. They have returned some properties to minority foundations that were stolen during the republican era. This is a huge precedent and actually sets the stage for the return of more properties to their rightful owners. It also tells us that they know they were in the wrong and that they would like to reverse such wrongs. We need to encourage such moves and push for more.

    Like it or not, we have to accept that Turkey exists and sits on what had been Armenia for thousands of millenia. The likelihood that it will disappear overnight or that a thousand years of conquests will be reversed is close to zero at this point in time. So, accept it, work with it and let’s move on in a positive way.

    Perhaps it would be much more practical and pragmatic (which I know is not as popular to discuss) to explore how to not only get acknowledgement and an honest apology from the government of Turkey, but a commitment to returning all properties to Armenians and perhaps offering compensation for those where survivors are impossible to find? How about asking Turkey to be more cooperative towards Armenia, open the border, establish diplomatic and business relations, as well as offering respect and recognition towards the important historical legacy of Armenians in Turkey, from its earliest days.

    For starters, in Turkish textbooks, rather than being denigrated as traitors, Armenians should be rehabilitated and lauded for the massive number of significant cultural contributions they made to Turkey over the last thousand years. The mosques and monuments built by Sinan (an acknowledged, converted Armenian) are an important, visible example, considering that Turks still worship in them, but there are many others all over the country that go back to Seljuk times.

    Unofficially, Turks know all this, but it’s the official line that matters, since change from the top can often trickle down in a good way. Reversing the racist, hateful legacy of the last 100 years is not at all impossible…where there’s a will, there’s a way. It can be done. Now is the time for Turkey to act, as it will have huge symbolic meaning for all of us. Moreover, let’s also work with Turks to push beyond the symbolic to create a new paradigm for today and the future that will help Armenia, not impede it. This is in everybody’s interests, but it will take guts and hard work. I just hope someone can and will take such steps, on both sides of the divide, to do whatever it takes to change and improve the current dynamic. I do believe it will be worth the effort, particularly if this is done with honesty and sincerity. Let’s move the ball forward, not backward. Lets applaud every step in the right direction, no matter how small, and not be afraid to ask for more. For me, this is how justice will be done. Not overnight, not all at once, but in steps that all go in the same direction. Only paitence and perseverance (while also encouraging Turkey to do the right thing – because it is in their interests, as well) – can overcome the bitterness of 1915 and its aftermath. As I said, it can be done.

    • One rarely sees a comment as constructive as this in these pages.

      I do not not if you are an Armenian or a Turk, but if Armenians take your approach there will be no excuse for a Turk to not have a sympathy for Armenians or for their cause.

    • Tokado, since you accept such an approach, are you personally ready to offer apologies for the heinous crime of your predecessors? Let’s see how such an approach, which you seem to admire, works on an individual level. Are you sorry—personally—that your Ottoman predecessors barbarously mass murdered 1.5 million Armenians and forcibly deported several hundred thousands of them from their native lands? Enters Karekin: “How about asking [Karekin, asking?!] Turkey to be more cooperative towards Armenia?” Tokado, on an individual level, I ask you to be more cooperative towards Armenians whom you encounter in this online publication and offer respect and recognition towards the important historical legacy of Armenians in your country from the days of Seljuk invasion into the region. What do you say? Let’s all hear how Karekin’s approach, which Turkish poster Tokado assessed as constructive, works on an individual level.

    • Of course I am sorry that Armenian population faced such a destruction

      Of course I offer respect and recognition to the Armenian cultural legacy. Many of important people, whom we admire (like Sinan), were of Armenian descent.

      So. Are you full of shame now? Your problem is that you demand things. Like you demand me to be respectful, yet you don’t give any thing in return. No respect, but a mocking tone. This is also true for your cause. You demand justice, which is fine. But demand it from people who didn’t commit this crime, nor their fathers, nor their grand-fathers. Then you hate and demonize them more and more because you think they are “the enemy”, they are the responsible.

      Are you also ready to show respect and be cooperative to the Turks who encounter in these pages?

    • {“Of course I am sorry that Armenian population faced such a destruction”}
      Doesn’t say much, does it.
      Faced such a destruction ? How did it happen: as a deliberate policy or as an incidental consequence of war ?
      Who did it, the Martians ?

      Anyway, [Berj], you will have a hard time getting a straight answer from our guest:

      here is an exchange from some time ago @AW:

      RVDV: {” Look, I don’t know if you’re a denialist so I will ask openly and directly and I want a yes or no answer. Was what happened in 1915 genocide? ”

      Tokado: {“I would say yes if I address Armenian version of the story. I would say no if I address Turkish side. I have seen proofs of both sides. Since no sides disprove the other, but throw a bunch of their proofs, and ask people to “believe”, this whole debate does not follow the scientific method. So my answer is “I don’t know”.”}

    • Yet zero contribution to the conversation, only copy/pastes… Don’t worry I wasn’t expecting more…

    • Karekin,

      I as a citizen of RoA do not want to have an open border with Turkey until this country changes its foreign policy towards Armenia. What Armenia has to do and is doing quite well is to have very good relations with Georgia, Iran, Russia, EU, Asian countries and keep minimum or no relations with Turkey. You talk about opening the border-do you really want to see massive Turkish investments and eventually emigration to Armenia? I do not want that happen. With open border it is inevitable.

    • Is this what you could produce in response to my post, tokado? “Of course I am sorry that Armenian population faced such a destruction.” To say such a thing is to say nothing. Am I to be ashamed or maybe you? Faced such a destruction… What is this? What destruction? The Great Fire of Rome? The Destruction of Babylon? By whom? Aliens from outer space?

      “Of course I offer respect and recognition to the Armenian cultural legacy.” Thank you. And, of course, I hope, by looking at piles of stones, churches-turned-sheepcots or mosques you see how your nation preserved the Armenian cultural legacy?

      We demand things because we are victims in the hands of your predecessors. We demand justice not from people who didn’t commit this crime, but from their state authorities. If neither you, nor your fathers, nor your grandfathers didn’t commit the crime, then why all you could say was: “I am sorry that Armenian population faced such a destruction”? Why didn’t you at least say “My relatives didn’t commit crime but I am sorry for the crime of mass murder and forced deportations that our Turkish predecessors have committed against the Armenians”?

      We don’t hate. I, for one, don’t. Neither do I demonize. But I do abhor your unrepentant, unremorseful, and denialist state. Note: the state, not the people.

      About responsibility. Your modern state does bear responsibility because the Republic of Turkey is the legal successor of the murderous Ottoman Empire.

      I am ready to show respect and be cooperative to the Turks whom I encounter in these pages. Just specify for what they need respect? For denying that their nation has ever committed genocide of the Armenians?

      P.S. Thanks, Avery. Everything’s clear… Karekin, are you following? Are you happy with “I am sorry that Armenian population faced such a destruction” phrase?

  23. avatar Maxime Gauin // February 13, 2013 at 1:01 pm // Reply

    “what is going on behind the closed doors when mr. Sassounian who repeatedly has been branding consecutive US presidents for refusing to acknowledge that what happened in 1915-23 was genocide, now holds that the US in fact acknowledged this offcially years ago?”
    I do not think that many things took place behind the door. It is merely that the systematic failures of the Armenian resolutions in the U.S., especially since 2000, and even more, the decision of the federal appeal court in California in 2012, necessitate the invention of a recognition by U.S. that never was.

    • {The allegations of being “an intelligence agent” are based on the interpretation of a crude fake. The official letter of the minister of Interior Claude Guéant to the Turkish ambassador, in 2012, settled definitely the issue. Anyway, everybody who speaks French and knows France (unlike the ignorant correspondent of “Today’s Zaman” in Paris) is able to understand alone that it is a grotesque fake.}

      Right: a mainstream pro-Turkish-State Turkish newspaper outs you, a French Turcophile, as an intelligence agent: that one is supposedly a ‘grotesque fake’.

      And I am sure the French Interior Minister would openly admit someone is or is not an intelligence agent.
      If it is a fake, why don’t you sue TodaysZaman and force them to retract it.

      You don’t sue, because you know the facts will come out in an open court.
      A mainstream Turkish website says a French Turcophile AG Denialist is a plant.
      It further says this:

      “Upon our order our employee has gone against the education in history he received and lobbies in favor of the Turks. ”

      I don’t read French, but my English is OK: I read that to mean you were educated that AG is a historical fact, but are now denying it in favour of the Turks, for some ulterior motive.

      How do you read that sentence, Denialist Gauin-oglu.

    • avatar Harut Sassounian // February 13, 2013 at 10:17 pm //

      English is not probably the native tongue of Maxime Gauin. I suggest that he polish up on his English first before rereading my column. He may then understand why I assert that the Armenian Genocide is already recognized. How many recognitions are necessary before someone is convinced that it is a recognized fact.

      Ragnar Naess and fellow traveler Maxime Gauin may not be aware that I have been writing for years that the Armenian Genocide is already a recognized fact. Nothing new there except for those who have not been following my columns. The evidence is there all the way from 1951!!! Are you also going to deny that there is a 1951 document?

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 14, 2013 at 4:31 am //

      “English is not probably the native tongue of Maxime Gauin. I suggest that he polish up on his English first before rereading my column. He may then understand why I assert that the Armenian Genocide is already recognized.”
      English is indeed not my native tongue, but don’t worry, mister Sassounian, my English is sufficient to understand your column—I write op-eds and academic papers in Shakespeare’s language. That is largely sufficient to notice that you don’t say a single word about the two court cases lost by Armenian plaintiffs in U.S. The decision of the appeal court in the Movsesian v. Victoria Versicherung A.G., one year ago, is very clear on the U.S. position.
      Similarly you frequently quote the statement of President Reagan in April 1981, but you never quote the statement of the same President, about the same question, in October 1983, although this second statement has been used in the amicus curiae of the Republic of Turkey in the Movsesian case.

      “The evidence is there all the way from 1951!!! Are you also going to deny that there is a 1951 document?”
      Are you going to deny that there is the appeal court judgment in the Movsesian v. Victoria Versicherung A.G., in 2012?

    • Maxime Gauin,is an overpaid frustrated mercenary working for USAK the infamous Turkish history distorting organization.He follows the instructions of another infamous Genocide denialist Ergun Kirlikovali.
      These people make their living through history distortion & denial.Gauin is not an authority on Lemkin.
      “Steven Leonard Jacobs, one of the foremost authorities on the life and work of Raphael Lemkin, will provide a detailed critical overview and discussion of the importance of the Armenian case in the development of Lemkin’s thinking and conception of the term “genocide” and its formulation as an international crime. Lemkin coined the term and was the motivating force behind the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Punishment and Prevention of the Crime of Genocide.”
      http://www.armenianweekly.com/2013/02/13/jacobs-to-speak-at-naasr-on-lemkin-and-armenian-genocide/#comments
      Frustrated mercenary Gauin,who takes his handouts from the denialist Turkish government organization will always remain ‘gyavoor’ for the Turks even when he converts.The time will come when we will punish such irritating mosquitoes.They will not go unpunished.The Turks have a very good saying which amply applies to this character:’bosh adam’.

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 14, 2013 at 12:33 pm //

      “Maxime Gauin,is an overpaid frustrated mercenary working for USAK the infamous Turkish history distorting organization.He follows the instructions of another infamous Genocide denialist Ergun Kirlikovali.
      These people make their living through history distortion & denial.Gauin is not an authority on Lemkin.”
      Who wrote in the “European Journal of International Law” (an Oxford journal) last year, you or me?
      Lemkin has been such an “authority” that his definition of genocide was rejected by the U.N. in 1948.

      “Frustrated mercenary Gauin,who takes his handouts from the denialist Turkish government organization will always remain ‘gyavoor’ for the Turks even when he converts.”
      I hope you enjoyed writing these lines.

      “The time will come when we will punish such irritating mosquitoes.”
      Bouhouhou, I am afraid… Actually, I am not afraid at all—not afraid anymore. My name is not Stanford Jay Shaw, Justin McCarthy or Gilles Veinstein. If you don’t understand what I mean, let’s ask to Movsès Nissanian and Jean-Marc “Ara” Toranian, among others.

    • Your not going to alter history. Its not going to happen.

    • Gauin,stop blowing your own trumpet & I do not give two hoots whatever you have written.Even if you re-write the bible it means nothing to us as you have insulted our unburied innocent massacred forefathers.You remain an irritating mosquito in the footnotes of our history for justice.

    • Gauim,’1) Tell us what Antranik did during the Balkan wars (1912-1913). Tourism in Australia?’Read the here below:
      The Commander of the Corps was Major General Nikola Genev, Assistant Commander – Colonel Aleksandar Protogerov. Chief of Staff was Major Petar Darvingov. During the Second Balkan War Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Volunteer Corps took part in the battles against Serbian Army. Besides Bulgarians, the corps also included volunteers from other nationalities, including a whole Armenian company led by Garegin Nzhdeh and Andranik Ozanian.
      Here are some facts about Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Volunteer Corps (23 Sep 1912 – 1 Oct 1913) – Personnel: 14 670, Bulgarians: 14 139 (11 470 were from Macedonia, 1 215 – from Thrace, and 2 512 – from Bulgaria). Foreigners: 531 (275 Armenians, 82 Russians, 68 Romanians, 40 Serbians, 21 “Austro-Hungarians”, 12 Montenegrins, 3 Greeks, 1 Albanian, 1 Englishman, 1 Italian, and a Persian).
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian-Adrianopolitan_Volunteer_Corps
      Now if 275 Armenians were fighting for this volunteer corps,does it mean that a whole nation should be ethnically cleansed & subjected to Genocide,from their 4000 year old homeland?Why not go after those 275?How about the thousands of Armenian soldiers who served in the Ottoman army after the 1908 when they became subject to conscription like other members of the society?Were they holidaying in the Balkans or on the Russian front?
      Tell me why Enver disarmed the loyal Ottoman Armenian soldiers of 300,000 & had them killed?
      As for the French Armenian Legion:
      This legion was under the command of the French & followed the orders of the French.After the initial training in Cyprus, the Armenian Legion was first deployed in Palestine, to help French and British armies against Ottoman and German armies.Under the command of General Edmund Allenby, the Legion, fighting in Palestine, Syria, and finally Cilicia, won the plaudits of Clemenceau’s government and its Entente allies.And what happened next?
      “In May 1919, the Armenians declared an independent state in Cilicia. However this state was short lived as France disbanded the Armenian Legion and recognized Turkey’s sovereignty over the region in 1920.”Aren’t you a French?

  24. avatar ragnar naess // February 14, 2013 at 4:41 am // Reply

    harut
    nice to hear from you (and I certainly forgive you for your ritualistic “fellow traveller” erxpressions). But if you have said for years that the US already has acknowledged that genocide was committed against the Armenians, WHY, WHY, WHY all this outcry about Obama stopping the US from acknowledging the AG. Why not rather remind him that the US already has done this? Or is there a snag here, like the one about the “UN acknowledgement of the AG”,(Schabas has shown that this is a misunderstanding) that the US declaration of the 50-ies is mnot legally binding, or not good enough, or what?
    But let me help you: you have not made your point clear. What you mean to say is that the US must REPEAT its acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide. The values of REPETITION. thats it!!!!. And sure you are a master at this… (I must be in a bad mood today, I mostly am not this sarcastic….

    onur yildirim. congratulations with using your real name! you write:
    Why would the Turkish government recognize the Armenian genocide? th only reason I can think of is that it would be the right thing to do.
    comment:
    I dont agree with you. Erdogan the master tactician may admit it in the same way as he admitted the massacres at Dersim: it was not a muslim regime, it was the ittihadists and their offspring the Kemalists. and besides….
    And then he will give what Mensoian calls “a sanitized version”. it will be easy. 1915 is a case of ethnic cleansing with genocidal acts interspersed, much like in Bosnia, he will say (see the ICTY verdict on the Serb general Krstic and also the ICJ verdict in which Serbian leadership is acquitted of genocide). By a “sanitized version” I mean a version without any will to go deeply into the trauma of the Armenians, without a will to the real job which means to debate and listen, disagree in some, agree in other respects. “Genocide” will be a technical term, and “Agree that genocide occurred” will be a technical expression, a reflection of an Armenian policy that in the end – too much – asked for technical admissions. And there will be lots of angered and frustrated people on both sides because one never put a high priority on really arguing about what really happened, never doing the hard work of putting oneself in the shoes of the protagonists, the ordinary Turk and the ittihadist leaders and their reactions to a Western approach that never cared about massacres of Muslims, and the Turkish side never putting oneself in the shoes of the terrified Armenians, women, children, men who were marched off to be killed or die of exhaustion, dishonoured and robbed. One word cannot by being uttered or “acknowledged” do this job. Something more is asked for.

    • ragnar naess: could you come up with something more original and innovative than this old unsubstantiated cliché of yours: “the ordinary Turk and the Ittihadist leaders and their reactions to a Western approach that never cared about massacres of Muslims”. Really, it’s tiresome proving the obvious: Armenians had no role in or geographical proximity to or political, military or other participation in the massacres of the Muslims in the Balkans, which, as you conveniently omit, were committed by the Muslims in the first place. The genocidal extermination of the Armenians by the Turks, therefore, cannot be juxtaposed to or drawn a parallel with something in which the Armenians physically didn’t partake or had any influence on. STOP already! Why are you devaluing yourself by attempting to justify Turkish intent in physically annihilating the Armenians that is totally different from wars of independence in the Balkans and atrocities committed on both sides? A plethora of genocide scholars and historians, including Turks’ and Turkphiles’ very own and dear Bernard Lewis, elaborated enough on the Turks’ intentions in 1915. Hardly can a self-respecting scholar state unambiguously that genocide of the Armenians had anything to do with the atrocities committed against the Muslim occupiers in the Balkans. Do you take pleasure from portraying yourself as a laughingstock? I wonder.

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 14, 2013 at 3:41 pm //

      “Really, it’s tiresome proving the obvious: Armenians had no role in or geographical proximity to or political, military or other participation in the massacres of the Muslims in the Balkans”
      1) Tell us what Antranik did during the Balkan wars (1912-1913). Tourism in Australia?
      2) Tell us why the Russian government suppressed the Armenian volunteers units in December 1915, and why the French government fired the whole Armenian Legion in July-September 1920, after several purges in 1919.

    • “1915 is a case of ethnic cleansing with genocidal acts interspersed, much like in Bosnia, he will say..”

      No. No he will not. If he compares the AG to Bosnia in order to make a point about ethnic cleansing, then Erdogan is an idiot. As you must know, Srebrenica was not a genocidal act. It was genocide. If you compare the AG to an event that has been classified as genocide then what would you be saying about the AG?

    • 1) Tell us who was living peacefully on their own lands in the Armenian Highlands for about 5000 years, until they were almost completely exterminated about 100 years ago.
      2) Tell us which nomadic tribes from East and Central Asia invaded the Armenian Highlands in force around 1000AD.
      3) Tell us what did those invading nomadic tribes do to the indigenous peoples.
      4) Tell us what happened to the Christian city called Constantinople about 500 years ago.
      5) Tell us who was living in the Balkans when Turkic invaders invaded and started murdering and ethnically cleansing the indigenous peoples.
      6) Tell us who murdered up to 300,000 Armenians in 1895.
      7) Tell us who murdered up to 30,000 Armenians in Adana in 1909.
      8) Tell us who started the Genocide of Armenians in 1915.

      As is the custom of Denialists, Turk and Turcophile, they always start their narrative at the precise moment Turks’ suffering begins.
      Turks suddenly appeared out of nowhere in the midst of peoples who had lived on their own lands fro millenia. Turks were just living peacefully, not bothering anyone and suddenly their unwilling hosts turned on them.

      Turkic invaders like their victims unarmed, unable to fight back, and meekly submitting to slaughter.
      In the Denialverse, a victim has no right to fight off Turkic invaders.

    • Huh? Are you talking to me, Gauin? Is “Tell us” a civilized form of asking a person that you’ve learnt in France or maybe it is a form that you’ve learnt in your native backward country?

      Andranik settled in Bulgaria in 1907 and became a naturalized citizen. In this capacity he participated in the First Balkan War of 1912-1913, within the Bulgarian army, under the command of Bulgarian Colonel Aleksandr Protogerov. Andranik’s detachment consisted of only 273 Armenian volunteers. Yet, In 1912 Andranik’s detachment defeated numerically exceeding Turks near Momchilgrad and in 1913 General Protogerov awarded Andranik with the Order of Bravery. In 1913, he retired to Varna, Bulgaria.

      This is what Andranik did while living in Bulgaria. But in case you missed the point in your unrestrained hatred for the Armenians, poster ragnar naess mentioned “the massacres of the Muslims in the Balkans” to which I responded that Armenians—on the whole—had no role in or geographical proximity to or participation in the atrocities. That one or two Bulgarian citizens of Armenian origin were fighting in the Bulgarian army during the First Balkan War is absolutely irrelevant to both ragnar naess’s post and my response to it. Even more irrelevant, verging on sheer absurd and lunatism, is your second question about the Russian government suppressing the Armenian volunteers units in December 1915, and the French government firing the Armenian Legion in 1920. What do these have to do with atrocities during the Balkan wars and Armenian non-participation in them? By December 1915 and then on by 1920, Ottoman Turkish barbarians have already mass slaughtered and forcibly deported all of the Armenians.

    • during the NKR war, thousands of Grey Wolf volunteers from Turkey fought indigenous Armenians of Artsakh on the side of AzeriTatarTurk invaders and backstabbers, who betrayed and massacred their Armenian neighbors.
      About 300 NATO trained retired TSK officers, including several generals, participated, in an advisory role, in the failed AzeriTatarTurk attempt to exterminate and ethnically cleanse indigenous Armenians from their historic Artsakh homeland.

      By the Balkan illogic of Turkophile denialists, Armenians would be justified in committing a Genocide of ethnic Turks in Turkey then. Yes ?

    • avatar Harut Sassounian // February 22, 2013 at 5:22 pm //

      Ragnar,

      You do not to put words in my mouth. I have repeatedly and clearly stated that we do not need Obama or anyone else to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. It is already and repeatedly acknowledged. No, I do not want REPETITION of the previous acknowledgment.
      What I want is the return of our historic Armenian territories — Western Armenia!
      I am not familiar with what Shabas said about the UN acknowledgment. Could you send me the link? I was there at the UN every step of the way for 10 years.
      Finally, you wrote why we don’t remind Obama that the US has already acknowledged the Genocide? I have done that repeatedly! Please read my columns before giving advice about what to write!
      The only issue with Obama is that he made a solemn campaign promise to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, on the basis of which he got Armenian-American campaign funds and votes. As a I wrote in my above column, “the only reason Obama should recognize the genocide is to be a man of his word.” If he wants to remain a liar, that’s his business.

  25. avatar ragnar naess // February 14, 2013 at 5:07 am // Reply

    Avery, my Baku educated friend….
    we obviously do not know who in the end is a plant and who isnt. Avery, your idea of Maxime going to court, and if not, proving that he is a……this is a good one, but I warn you. It may work with some and not with others. And you may discover that the ones it works with are not really inflyuential people. and you may discover it too late

    • Hah ? Baku educated ? Moi ?

      You are overworked my friend: you need a break.
      Never been to Baku. Update your database: I am Yerevantsi. Educated in Yerevan and USA (various cities and universities).

      Regarding Mr. Gauin:
      Here is the original article in TZ, including the addendum by Mr. Gauin.
      http://www.todayszaman.com/news-275920-french-intelligence-report-labels-turks-as-threat-to-public-safety.html

      pay attention to this sentence: {“Sources told Today’s Zaman that the report is authentic. The report has a fourth level of confidentiality, which is restricted distribution.”}.

      You are correct: we don’t know who is a plant and who isn’t: in intelligence matters, one is rarely 100% sure.
      However, the fact that TZ has not retracted the article and keeps it online despite Mr. Gauin’s denial, tells me they are confident of their sources.

      Ask your fellow AG Denialist why he has not sued TodaysZaman for libel yet.
      It has been almost a year. What is he waiting for ?

  26. To Berj: In one word, state interests. Or, to elaborate a bit more: the fear that the whole founding myth of the Turkish Republic will be turned upside down, with all its attendant implications for the unity of the society and relations with neighboring states and the world; fear that all the names of boulevards and monuments honoring Talat would have to be changed and the cult of his worship put out of business; fear of the possible material, financial, economic, territorial, political liabilities that might ensue, the demands that Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Alevis and other genocide victim groups might be emboldened to make; fear of having to put an entire army of denialist paper shufflers out of work and in the streets to cause further mischief. It goes on and on, but maybe that gives you an idea.

  27. Concerning M. Gauin:

    Gauin cites Lemkin Feb. 12
    “Lemkin coined this word to describe the Holocaust.” [I have already pointed out the fallacy in this statement.]

    Gauin dismisses Lemkin’s authority Feb. 14
    Lemkin has been such an “authority” that his definition of genocide was rejected by the U.N. in 1948.

    So, what does this mean? According to Gauin, we have genocide being used in two ways: as a “description” and as a “definition”, not so? He accepts the “description” but ridicules the “definition” and dismisses Lemkin with it? But if he accepts the “description” then what is his problem with Lemkin applying his “description” to the Armenian Genocide (without necessarily saying he is applying the “definition”) ? Why does he invoke Lemkin in the one case, but question his authority in the other? Those questions should be clear enough to elicit a precise response from M. Gauin.

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 15, 2013 at 10:38 am //

      Mr. Sassounian’s remark on my mastering of English language is more and more funny.
      I never “invoked Lemkin “. I never said I endorsed any analysis of Lemkin regarding the WWI. I don’t consider him as an authority. I replied to an assertion of Mr. Sassounian regarding Lemkin. Nothing more, nothing less. It was perfectly clear.
      I never contested that Lemkin said that the Ottoman Armenians experienced a genocide. I said that Lemkin coined the word “genocide” to describe the Holocaust. This word appears in Lemkin’s book entitled “Axis Rule in Occupied Europe,” not in a book on the Ottoman Empire during WWI. The context of the Shoah is the main reason for Lemkin’s book. And if Lemkin gives the example of the Ottoman Armenians as a pre-WWII genocide, he gives many other examples, which are mostly absurd.
      Lemkin’s definition of genocide was rejected by the United Nations in 1948. If I did not miss any comment, nobody denied this incontrovertible fact.

    • {A new bill criminalizing the “denial” of the unsubstantiated “Armenian genocide” claims was introduced in the French National Assembly with the barely implicit support of Mr. Sarkozy.} (Maxime Gauin. Hurriyet December/19/2011)

      Nobody living in the normal Universe is obligated to respond to an AG Denialist.
      Least of all an Armenian.

      Our French-Armenian compatriots need to redouble their efforts, with whatever help we Armenian-Americans can provide, to pass the AG Denial law in France.
      Once it is signed into law, French denialist Mr. Gauin can share the fate of another denialist – German Ernst Christof Friedrich Zündel.

    • When the Denialist has answered the question posed in this thread as to why he has not sued TodaysZaman for libel/defamation almost a year after TZ outed him as an intelligence agent – IF the allegation by TZ is False – then he can demand this or that from Armenians @AW.

      Deal ?

      PS: your denial of the claim made by TZ is no exoneration.

    • M. Gauin:

      In case you don’t know, in an essay “On the Crime of Barbarity as a Crime Against International Law” that Raphael Lemkin prepared for a presentation to the Legal Council of the League of Nations conference on international criminal law in Madrid in 1933, he specifically mentioned, as attested by several authors below, that the concept of the crime, which later evolved into the idea of genocide, was based on the Armenian Genocide and prompted by the experience of Assyrians massacred in Iraq during the 1933 Simele massacre.

      Sources:

      1. Yair Auron, The Banality of Denial: Israel and the Armenian Genocide. p. 9: “[...] when Raphael Lemkin coined the word genocide in 1944 he cited the 1915 annihilation of Armenians as a seminal example of genocide”

      2. William Schabas, Genocide in International Law: The Crime of Crimes. p. 25: “Lemkin’s interest in the subject dates to his days as a student at Lvov University, when he intently followed attempts to prosecute the perpetration of the massacres of the Armenians”

      3. A. Dirk Moses. Genocide and Settler Society: Frontier Violence and Stolen Indigenous Children in Australian History. p. 21: “Indignant that the perpetrators of the Armenian genocide had largely escaped prosecution, Lemkin, who was a young state prosecutor in Poland, began lobbying in the early 1930s for international law to criminalize the destruction of such groups.”

      4. William Korey. Raphael Lemkin: “The Unofficial Man”. p. 45-48

  28. avatar john the turk // February 14, 2013 at 6:19 pm // Reply

    I am glad that this scholar hit the Armenians in the head.Unlike some so called Turks he always tries to unearth the truth which will set you Armenian free. The latest piece he wrote in Turkish was about who burnt Izmir in 1922? I wish you a success at your work Mr. Gauin

    • Is this the same Murat who wrote the following not long ago in Hurriyet?
      Murat
      9/28/2012 8:10:12 PM
      Let me repeat here for posterity: There never was an Ottoman policy of extermination of a whole or part of group or race or ethnic population, no such decisions, orders, recommendations, no such documents, records, archives, no gas chambers, no rape camps or concentration camps, no mass graves anywhere, no 1.5M dead Armenians (or alive) at any time, only millions and millions of hateful descendents of people who were supposedly ALL genocided. Which part is not clear?
      http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/come-back-diyarbakir-mayor-tells-armenians.aspx?pageID=238&nID=31096&NewsCatID=338

  29. The mystery remains….why would any modern Turk want to defend criminals like Talat, Enver and Jemal, or to hold up their racist, genocidal actions as some kind of model behaviour to be admired? This is what must stop. Of course, that’s rather hard in a country that still names streets and monuments after them. Just imagine a Hitler Boulevard in downtown Berlin and then you can imagine why it is so bizarre for Armenians to hear reasonable Turks discuss this issue.

    The question is…can they be reasonable, even if their sentiments are in the right place? Can they abandon 90+ years of endless brainwashing and anti-Armenian propaganda? They all need to remember that Armenians were and are the indigenous inhabitants of that land, moreso than Talat, or Ataturk or any of them. Armenians want Turks to feel at least some measure of shame for what happened, even if they were not personally involved…their country was. It is a huge part of their history and it is shameful. Turks also need to sincerely ask themselves, why were Armenians singled out for mass slaughter and what can I do today that will help to correct that injustice? Once they can say this to themselves and to Armenians – face to face – then it’s possible a true dialogue can begin. Of course, some of us think this forum is a real dialogue, but it’s just a series of snips at each other, some nicer and some nastier than others.

    • Firstly, not all Turks are in support of a monument to Enver Pasa et al, since the man was convicted to death by an Ottoman Court for his role in dragging the Sick Man of Europe into WWI. Still, he and Cemal Pasa were very historical figures. I am not really aware of their racist manifestos either. Most of their actions (it was mostly Talat Pasa really, since others were preoccupied with military issues and war) against Armenians were clearly security motivated. Second, Turks consider Republic of Turkey their country, not the Ottoman Empire. Besides, there are many monuments such as Menderes and Ozal mosuleums I do not even get but can not do too much about. Not as if Armenians do not name streets after mass murderers. When not a single fedayeen has faced justice, it is absurd for you to be so passionate about justice. Biggest obstacle to a productive dialog is hardly the brain washing you claim, but it is the hate and sense of victimhood and anger instilled into every Armenian as clearly visible here. How do you even talk to such people?

    • [Firstly, not all Turks are in support of a monument to Enver Pasa et al, since the man was convicted to death by an Ottoman Court for his role in dragging the Sick Man of Europe into WWI. Still, he and Cemal Pasa were very historical figures.]

      Yeah, right, VERY historical figures: notorious mass murderers. You said no word about the Turkish Courts Martial’s putting all three Devils’ Advocates—as the Armenians call Talat, Enver, and Djemal—to death for their role in the genocide of the Armenians. You only touched upon dragging the Sick Man of Europe into WWI. Typically Turkish! All other matters concerning non-Turks are not important, right? Sheer narrow-mindedness and excentrism on the Turkish nation only, not all of the human beings that suffered in the hands of the Turks. Will the Turks ever mature civilizationally?

      [Not as if Armenians do not name streets after mass murderers. When not a single fedayeen has faced justice, it is absurd for you to be so passionate about justice.]

      Fedayeens organized resistance movements IN RESPONSE to Turkish atrocities against the Armenians. First, after 1894-1896 when up to 300,000 Armenians were mass slaughtered during the so-called Hamidian Massacres and then in 1909 when up to 30,000 Armenians were slaughtered in the Massacre of Adana. And, of course, during the genocide itself. What do you expect the Armenians to do facing such Turkish barbarity, Murat? Sit and passionately wait to be slaughtered like sheep. Is this what the Turks would do had they been in the Armenian situation?

      Biggest obstacle to a productive dialog is stubborn non-admittance of guilt even on an individual level. Except for RVDV, who claims to be a Kurd, I haven’t seen a single Turk on these pages who’d say he or she is sorry for the crime of their predecessors against the Armenians.

      Hate? Yeah, but for the denialist Turkish state, not ordinary people. Sense of victimhood? You bet. What sense would you have had you had almost all of your nation barbarously murdered, raped, and mutilated and two-thirds of ancestral lands stolen as a result? Anger? No. Righteous indignation, rather. Again, what feelings would you have given the grievances of a mass murdered nation? Delight and enjoyment?

    • Murat, you said: “Turks consider the Republic of Turkey their country, not the Ottoman Empire.”

      What Turks consider is irrelevant to international law and punishment for crimes against humanity that the Republic of Turkey, as legal successor to the Ottoman Empire, is liable for. I asked this question several times before and no Turk ever answered. But I’ll reiterate. If Turks consider the Republic of Turkey their country not the Ottoman Empire, then what prevents Turks from acknowledging the crimes of the Ottoman Empire, mainly against the Armenians? Curious to know.

  30. Honestly, people, nobody is that interested any more in what Armenians say about the Armenian Genocide. Armenians have had almost 100 years to do it their way, and have mostly failed at it. These days, most of the valuable contributions and innovative thoughts come from other sources – and a lot actually seem to come from intellectuals and journalists in Turkey. I think that writings about the Armenian Genocide need to be taken out of the “by Armenians for Armenians” ghetto they have mostly anguished in since 1915.

    Mr Sassounian makes observations on the insincere use of Medz Yeghern by Obama. They are useful and valid comments. However, he, in other contexts and on other websites, had sought to exploit that phrase in exactly the same way as Obama. Here he translates it as “Great Atrocity”, but when he is wearing his Armenian extremist hat, he will translate it incorrectly as “Great Crime”. Armenian propaganda since 1919 has always sought to distort the reality of the genocide for political reasons, claiming that it had occurred in “Historical Armenia” in order to justify and maintain territorial claims against Turkey that will never be realised. In reality, most of the victims lived outside of historical Armenia, in areas far from any warring front lines. To claim otherwise actually supports the Turkish propaganda that they died due to rebellions and civil wars.

    • {“Honestly, people, nobody is that interested any more in what Armenians say about the Armenian Genocide.”}

      Honestly, Steve, if nobody is interested, why is the State of Turkey expending all that money and political capital every year attempting to prevent AG recognition by more counties, particularly USA ?

      You do agree Turkey in fact does that, don’t you ?

    • Good point Steve. Until there is one Armenian Akcam also, one can not really expect any meaningful dialogue or conciliation, and this is more like a shouting match between two blind and deaf people. Armenians need to face some ugly truths about themselves, their ancestors and the propaganda and falsification machine they have been subjected to for a century. It takes two to tango.

    • Steve: “Honestly, people, nobody is that interested any more in what Armenians say about the Armenian Genocide.” Isn’t it a bit ironic that you are one of the most interested? You can’t stay away from it, even to the extent of making a big fuss about “Historical Armenia” where presumably all the Armenians native to Sivas, Zeitoun, Adana, Kayseri, Amasya, etc., etc., should have been in the first place and just waiting for the genocide to happen in order for it to be accurately said, in our day, that the Armenians of Turkey were exterminated from their native soil of centuries and centuries.

    • I agree with Steve, sadly.

      And remember that it is people like Hrant Dink and Ragip Zarakolu that frighten the Turkish state (as well as opportunists like Ragnar Naess and Maxime Gauin) more than anything.

  31. avatar ragnar naess // February 15, 2013 at 1:07 am // Reply

    berj
    That Armenians had nothing to do with the massacre of Turks in the Balkan is irrelevant. I talk about the Turkish experience and how it shaped the ideas of the ittidadists about methods to be used, or rather methods to be accepted in spite of their harshness

    • [And there will be lots of angered and frustrated people ON BOTH SIDES because one never put a high priority on really arguing about what really happened, never doing the hard work of putting oneself in the shoes of the protagonists, the ordinary Turk and the Ittihadist leaders and their reactions to a Western approach that never cared about massacres of Muslims, and the Turkish side never putting oneself in the shoes of the terrified Armenians, women, children, men who were marched off to be killed or die of exhaustion, dishonoured and robbed.]

      This is what you wrote, ragnar naess. Putting the grievances of both sides in which one, Armenians, had nothing to do whatsoever with the atrocities against the other in one sentence suggests that you continue, again, your laughable attempts at juxtaposing the two totally unrelated cases.

      P.S. Historical science knows no such event as “massacres of the Turks in the Balkans”.

  32. avatar ragnar naess // February 15, 2013 at 1:13 am // Reply

    what is the use in calling Maxime a mercenary? Will it change his views? Will it have any positive effect? I had many interesting talks with Maxime in Erzurum last year as I have and had with many people who doubt or deny the genocide thesis. Is it possible to fight for the Armenian cause which certainly is a worthy one, with a strategy using so much space for calling people names?

    • To whom they call a mercenary?To a foreign hired gun when the locals cannot do the job.In this case it is a hired pen which is as harmful as a gun if not more.
      He works for USAK.I hope that he declares his income from his mercenary work to the tax authorities in case he resides in France together with the details of his Turkish bank accounts.

  33. avatar ragnar naess // February 15, 2013 at 1:34 am // Reply

    maxime,
    I dont remember where you were sitting at the lunch table in the village at the memorial of the Turkish men, women and children who were killed by Andranik in 1918. But there was a placque on the wall saying roughly the following, a citation from some European author: “The Armenians have had the Byzantines, the Persians, the Russians and the Ottomans as their masters in the past. And without exception, they have betrayed their masters”. After the polite questioning on the economy of the village and praise of the local döner kebab I had to say to the village officials, as I said on several occasions in Erzurum, that they must not do this. They must mention all the innocent Armenians killed even if it is right to remember their own killed ones. They must take away the placque and put up something better. In my presentation “Conviction and documentation in the Armenian issue ” I recounted many of the points that the participants in the debates in the AW know, and are now tired of hearing me saying. But I concluded with saying that Turkey must acknowledge what happened, or go deeper into it, and that Turkey must apologize to Armenians. But maybe you disagree with me?
    Also I am sorry I did not get any further with my attempt to make an article in Norway with you about the French law, but possibly we can do it next time it is put on the agenda ?

    • Remind me for a second,under the Ottoman sultans & for more than 400 years,who was called the ‘millet saddiki’ & trusted with treasury,ammunition,bread & many other ministries?Why did numerous sultans never trusted the Muslims(they were called Muslims & not Turks as being called a Turk was an insult)?Because they were thieves & ‘khaines’/traitors,back stabbers.No need to say that the sultans knew very well their own kind.And surprise surprise after 1908 & under the Young Turks & within few months we become traitors?
      Unfortunately current Turkey is the continuation of the Young Turks.
      I hope you enjoyed your free doner!

    • If the Nazis had won the war & they still had called the Norwegian resistance fighters as traitors…Same applies to the French resistance fighters…
      They come from the east conquer our homeland,enslave us,steal,rape,ethnically cleanse & Genocide us & still they have the audacity of calling us traitors!
      Of course no need to say that this was the policy of the Young Turks to cover their naked backsides.

    • Ragnar, thanks for sharing about this plaque, but please mention why you thought it should be taken down.

      The plaque on the wall isn’t just offensive. It is a bigoted lie. It exposes the archaic ‘conqueror’ ideology which is the crux of Turkish animosity against Armenians (and other minorities). Many Turks view the fact of Armenian resistance against their oppression and forced-turkification as betrayal. But is it betrayal to pursue self-determination or one’s own cultural traditions and to seek equality under the law? What about the fact that a vast majority of Armenians were ‘loyal’ (even if reluctantly so) and only a small percentage of Armenians participated in acts of resistance or cooperation with Ottoman enemies? Ottoman government and military leaders might have been within their rights to prosecute those who worked against their government, but they instead immorally and illegally targeted all Armenians for deportation and extermination.

      And you know Ragnar, that Turkish government and military leaders today use the accusation of betrayal to promote anti-Armenianism and to avoid their nation’s responsibility or consequences for:
      (a) Killing Armenians;
      (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to Armenians;
      (c) Deliberately inflicting on Armenians conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in whole or in part;
      (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births of Armenians;
      (e) Forcibly transferring Armenian children to Muslim families

      Genocide.

      The plaque is just one weapon in the arsenal of the Turkish government’s despicable, deliberate, and deeply-entrenched genocide denial.

      Wouldn’t you agree?

    • Well said Boyajian:

      Additionally, let us dispense once and for all with the red herring that denialist Turks and their sycophantic apologists keep bringing up: Betrayal.
      Denialist Turks and their sycophant apologists: please show us a single document where Armenians pledged allegiance to Seljuk Turk invaders.
      Denialist Turks and their sycophant apologists: please show us a single document where Armenian subjects of Sultan Hamid pledged allegiance to the Sublime Porte
      Please show us documents or results of referendums whereby Armenians in Turkey elected Mustafa Kemal or any of his CUP criminals to represent them. (Yes, Kemal and CUP were considered rebellious criminals by the government of Sultan Abdul Hamid II, at the time the legally recognized government of Turkey: how is that for treachery and betrayal, Turks).

      The undeniable fact is that Armenians were forcibly subjugated by foreign nomadic invaders. They never accepted the illegal subjugation as legal.
      They just endured.
      It makes no difference if the occupiers where there 4 years (like the Nazis) or 400 years.
      Members of French Resistance were considered heroes: Vichy collaborators had their heads shaved and were spat on (…if they were lucky to survive the righteous retribution of the Resistance). Resistance leader De Gaul garnered 78% of the vote in the Presidential election of 1958.
      In Norway, there is a Norway’s Resistance Museum: it honors the Norwegian resistance to Nazi invaders. Scum like Vidkun Quisling are reviled.

      Now, when it comes to Armenians resisting murderous foreign invaders from 3,000 kilometers away, it is supposed to be “betrayal”.
      It is no dishonor to resist invaders who have invaded one’s homeland.
      It is no dishonor to kill foreign occupiers of one’s homeland.

      It is the greatest honor and duty.
      It has been recognized as such throughout human history.

    • “The Armenians have had the Byzantines, the Persians, the Russians and the Ottomans as their masters in the past. And without exception, they have betrayed their masters”.

      One word fro the Turks: Ungrateful.

      “Betraying” Armenians, the Duzians, were Directors of the Imperial Mint.

      “Betraying” Armenians, the Balyans, were Chief Imperial Architects.

      “Betraying” Armenians, the Dadians, were Superintendents of the Gunpowder Mills.

      Among many, MANY other positions in which the Armenians served faithfully to ungrateful and sly Ottomans.

      Where were the defoted, faithful Turks/Muslims holding positions of responsibility in the Ottoman Empire?

      Disgusting…

    • I bet you 200% that the village where you had the free doner,was historically an Armenian village & it is in the proximity of Armenia’s border & majority of its inhabitants are Azeris.Let’s have the name.
      I’m not surprised that your & the mercenary’s master has taken you all the way there.I see that they are spending money on both of you.They make you feel important but in the end they’ll show you their 2 fingers up.
      Mind my words & you will unwillingly remember me when it happens:there will come the day when your master will not need you & will dump you like a piece of… wet useless cloth… you both will always remain gyavoors.Their roots go to their nomadic ways of living when they used to kidnap & steal women & cattle from each other at night.Even though they live in cities nowadays but their way of thinking has never changed & remained the same.You can take the nomad out of his place but you can never take the nomad out of himself!

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 17, 2013 at 8:01 am //

      “Please show us documents or results of referendums whereby Armenians in Turkey elected Mustafa Kemal or any of his CUP criminals to represent them.”
      Bedros Hallaçyan was a CUP deputy of Istanbul, elected in 1908, reelected in 1912 and 1914. He was a minister from 1908 to 1912. He was representative of the Ottoman Empire in the International Court of the Hague in 1915-16, and eventually he was the president of the commission in charge of the reform of the Ottoman law from 1916 to 1918.
      Hrant Abro was the legal adviser of the Ottoman ministry of Foreign Affairs from 1914 to 1918.
      Berç Keresteciyan was deputy director of the Ottoman Bank prior WWI, the general manager from 1914 to 1927, and a deputy of Afyon from 1935 to 1946. He was also the honorary president of the Society for Turko-Armenian friendship, created in Istanbul in 1923. In 1923, too, the new Armenian patriarch recommended to vote for the candidates endorsed by the People’s Party of Kemal (Atatürk).

    • Mercenary,tell me what happened to the here below Armenians,where did they vanish,how come there are no Armenians left?GENOCIDE IS THE ANSWER.
      Still as the title says ‘Some of the Armenian…’.The list is far too long.

      Some of the Armenian Ministers and Civil Servants in the Ottoman State Structure
      Armenians in the Ottoman Bureaucracy

      Agop KAZAZYAN (Minister for Finance)
      Maresal Garabet Artin DAVUT Pasha (Minister for Communication)
      Mareşal Garebet Artin DAVUT Pasha (Minister for Public Works)
      Andon Tıngır YAVER Pasha (Minister for Communication)
      Oskan MARDİKYAN(Minister for Communication)
      Berdos HALLACYAN (Minister for Public Works)
      Baristor Krikor SINAPYAN (Minister for Public Works)
      Krikor AGATON (Minister for Public Works)
      Gabriel NORADUNKYAN (Minister for Public Works)
      Gabriel NORADUNKYAN (Minister of Foreign Affairs)
      Agop KAZAZYAN Pasha (Head of the Ottoman Treasury)
      Mikael PORTAKALYAN Pasha (Head of the Ottoman Treasury)
      Sakız OHANNES Pasha (Head of the Ottoman Treasury)

      Senators
      Mareşal Ohannes KUYUMCUYAN Pasha
      Abraham ERAMYAN Paşa
      Manuk AZARYAN
      Gabriel NORADUNKYAN

      Directors in Treasury
      Artin Zeki
      Agop CİNCİYAN
      Aram HURDACI
      Mıgırdıç HEKİMYAN
      GARABET TOMAS
      Hımayak SEFERYAN
      Aram ADİL
      Kevork TORKOMYAN
      Melkon MİLOYAN
      Behram YAKUPYAN
      Sahak YEREMYAN
      Levon PAPAZYAN
      Kevork KORAN
      Dikran ÇÜBERYAN
      Kevork ÇÜVERYAN
      Hovsep TAKVORYAN
      Krikor TAKVORYAN

      Armenian MPs in Ottoman Parliement
      1876
      Ohannes ALLAHVERDİ Deputy to Parliement Speaker
      Sebuh MAKSUDYAN (Istanbul)
      Rupen YAZICIYAN (Edirne)
      Sahak YAVRUMYAN (Bursa)
      Hamazasb BALLARYAN (Erzurum)
      Manuk KARCIYAN (Halep)
      Mikael ALTINTOP (Ankara)
      Agop ŞAHİNYAN (Sivas)
      Taniyel KARACİYAN (Erzurum)

      1908
      Krikor ZOHRAP Istanbul Milletvekili
      Bedros HALLACYAN Istanbul Miletvekili
      Agop BABİKYAN Tekirdağ Milletvekili
      Agop BOYACIYAN Tekirdag Milletvekili
      Artin BOŞGEZENYAN Halep Milletvekili
      Dr. Nazaret DAGAVARYAN Sivas Milletvekili
      İstepan İSPARTALIYAN İzmir Milletvekili
      Hamparsum BOYACIYAN Kozan Milletvekili
      Kegam DERGARABEDYAN Mus Milletvekili
      Karakin PASTIRMACIYAN Erzurum Milletvekili
      Vahan PAPAZYAN Van Milletvekili

      1914

      Istepan CIRACIYAN (Başkanlık divanı katibi) Ergani Milletvekili
      Onnik İHSAN İzmir Milletvekili
      Bedros HALLAÇYAN Istanbul Milletvekili
      Krikor ZÖHRAP Istanbul Milletvekili
      Agop HIRLAKYAN Maras Milletvekili
      Kegam DERGARABEDYAN Mus Milletvekili
      Artin BOŞGEZENYAN Halep Milletvekili
      Dikran BARSAMYAN Sivas Milletvekili
      Matyos NALBATYAN Kozan Milletvekili
      Karabet TOMAYAN Kayseri Milletvekili
      Sasun Bağdat Milletvekili
      Varteks SERENGÜLYAN Erzurum Milletvekili

      Armenian Permanenent Undersecratries in Ministry of Foreign Affairs

      Ohannes SAKIZ Pasha
      Artin DADYAN Pasha
      Harutyun DADYAN Pasha
      Manuk AZERYAN

      Other Hing Ranked Armenin Civil Servants in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

      Agop GIRCIKYAN
      Krikor AGATON
      Kevork STİMARAÇYAN
      Sahak ABRO
      Krikor MARGOSYAN
      Sabuh LAZMİNAS
      Krikor ODYAN
      SERKİS HURYAN
      PARNASYAN
      İstepan ARZUMYAN
      Minas MİNASYAN
      Bogos AŞVAN
      Yakup YAKUPYAN
      Ohannes SÜRENYAN
      SIRABYAN
      Ovakin K REİSYAN
      Edvar MISIRLI
      Maksut SEFERYAN
      Hrant NORADUNKYAN
      MİKAEL, GULLABYAN
      Osep SERPOS
      İlyas ÇAYAN
      DAVUT
      Nişan SEFERYAN
      Humayak SEFERYAN
      Haçik PAPAZYAN
      Mihridat BABAYAN
      Levon SÜRENYAN
      Simon PAPAZYAN
      Rupen KARAKAS
      KRİKOR
      Dikron DEMIRCIYAN
      Antreas HASUN
      CIRACIYAN
      Hrant ABRO
      CİVANYAN BOGOS
      KERESTECIYAN

      FROM THE MANAS FAMILY: Rupen, Sebuh, Zenop, Pol, Piyer, Gaspar, Puzant, Aleksandr, Jozef MANAS

      Armenian Ambassadors and Councillers in Ottoman State’s Foreign Missions

      Garabet Artin DAVUT Pash (Berlin and Vien)
      Dikran ALEKSANYAN (Brussels)
      Yetvart ZOHRAB (London)
      Hovsep MISAKYAN (The Haig, Netherlands)
      Maresal Ohannes KUYUMCUYAN Pasha (Rome)
      Dikran TINGIR (Berlin, Germany)
      Mihran KAVAFYAN

      Armenian Other Councillers in the Ottoman Diplomacy
      Hrant DÜZ
      Ohannes MAGAKYAN
      Mihran KAVAFYAN
      Hovsep AZARYAN
      Serkis BALYAN
      Dikran HÜNKARBEĞENDİYAN
      Miyas YERAM
      Mıgırdıç EREMYAN
      Ohannes NAFİLYAN
      Hrant NORADUNKYAN
      ARSEN AVYAN
      Manuk AZARYAN
      Puzant MANAS
      Rupen MANAS

      Other Armenians in Ottoman Embassies
      Ohannes ABRAHAMYAM
      Harudyun MARKARYAN
      Levon YERAMYAN
      Dikran DADYAN
      Avedik SAHUMYAN
      Zenop MANAS
      Gaspar MANAS
      Pol MANAS
      Sebuh MANAS
      Pier MANAS
      Alexandre MANAS
      Diran ALIKSANYAN

      Important Armenian Figures in the Ottoman Ministry for Communication
      Ministers & High Ranked Civil Servants

      Maresal Garabet Artin DAVUT Pasha (Minister)
      Andon Tıngır YAVER Pasha (Minister)
      Osgan MARDIKYAN (Minister)
      Krikor AGATON (General Director)
      Kevork Sabit FINCANCIYAN

      Some of the Armenian Civil Servants

      Jorj SERPOS
      Mişel MISIRLI
      ERAMYAN İSTEPAN
      HAMPARSUM ARSEN
      PARLADİ GARAABET
      FRAN Piyer HASSUN
      Avedis ŞALÇIYAN
      Mikael ANKARALIYAN
      Paskal KAZANCIYAN
      Andon KÖSEYAN
      Dikran ARAKELYAN
      Ohannes ABRAHAMYAN
      Melkon YÜZBAŞIYAN
      Mıgırdıç ACEMYAN
      Karekin ÇERKEZYAN

      Ministry of Finance – Some of the Important Armenians
      Önemli Memurlar
      Agop Kazazyan PASHA (Minister)
      Sakız OHANNES
      Çamıç OHANNES
      Ohannes ALLAHVERDI
      Sakız ARMENAK
      Yeremyan ÇELEBİ
      Osep BEHLEMYAN
      Artin DUZ
      Serkis DUZ
      Ohannes DUZ
      Mikael DUZ
      Bogos DUZ
      Agop DUZ
      Krikor DUZ
      Garabet DUZ
      Mihran DUZ
      İstepan SASYAN
      İstepan ARAPYAN

      Ministry of National Education – Some of the Armenians in This Ministry
      Mihran DÜZ (Müsteşar)
      Tomas TERZİYAN
      Nişan GUGASYAN
      Tavit ÇIRACIYAN
      Sebuh TABİBYAN
      SARYAN Artin OHANNESYAN
      Hovsep YUSUFYAN
      Agop BOYACIYAN
      Yervant OSKAN
      Mikael AŞCIYAN
      Krikor OSKİYAN
      Rahip Kleman SİBİLYAN
      Prof. Krikor KÖMÜRCİYAN
      Artin SARAFYAN
      Hamazasb HAKİ

      Ministry of Justice and Danistay (The Council of State) – Some of the Armenians
      Danıştay Üyeleri
      Andon Tıngır YAVER Paşa Danıştay Üyesi
      Abraham YEREMYAN Paşa Danıştay Üyesi
      Mihran DÜZ Danıştay Üyesi
      Bedros KUYUMCUYAN Danıştay Üyesi
      VAHAM Serkis KARAKOÇ (Und.)
      Artin Şinasi PEKMEZOĞLU (Undrs.)

      GARABET (Undr.)GASBAR
      Diran PARGAMYAN
      Bogos ŞAŞYAN
      Dikran YUSUFYAN
      Takvar HAMAMCIYAN
      Kapriel KAPRİYELİYAN
      Ohannes TOROSYAN
      Viçen HOKOSYAN
      İstepan KARAYAN
      Markar UNCUYAN
      Tateos REFKİ
      Diran AŞNANYAN
      Kapriel NEŞTERCİYAN
      Artin MOSDİÇYAN
      Ovakim REİSYAN
      Kevork FİKRİ HAYRABET
      Ohannes TINGIR
      Bogos MISIRLIYAN
      Krikor ODYAN
      Serkis DÜZ
      Artin DADYAN
      Sahak ABRO
      Zareh DİLBER
      Ohannes NURYAN
      İlyas ÇAYAN
      Duran DADYAN
      Andon KÖSEYAN
      Bedros Zeki GARABETYAN
      Krikor HIDIRYAN
      Hırant ASADUR

      Ministry of Internal Affairs – Some of the Armenian Civil Servants
      Mareşal Garabet Artin DAVUT Paşa
      VARTAN Paşa
      Krikor ŞABANYAN
      Osep AMİRA
      Haçadur DERNERSESYAN
      Nişan KAZAZYAN
      Mikael MAMİKONYAN
      Bedros KAPAMACIYAN
      Karakin DEVECİYAN
      Servet PARACIYAN
      Sisak FERİT
      Minas GAMSAR
      Levon SÜRENYAN
      Yervan YUSUFYAN
      Bogos PARNASYAN
      Harutyun HANDANYAN
      Vali Muavinleri
      Ohannes FERİT
      Ohannes ASASYAN
      L.AYCİYAN
      Antranik BİLLURYAN

      Mustesar Muavinleri

      Nazaret Gazaros SAYEBAĞLIYAN
      HAGOP Mihran BOYACIYAN
      Harundyun APARTYAN
      Levon Minas CUKASIZYAN
      Nazaret ARMENAK
      Fikri ASLANYAN
      MANUEL Garabet ISRAELYAN
      BEDROS NİSAN
      PASKAL Sarim CUKASIZYAN
      Dikran KIRISCIYAN
      Hagop FERİT
      Garabet TOROSYAN
      Hagop YAVER
      Krikor PAPAZYAN
      Nişan AGAH
      Armenak BOYACIYAN
      KRIKOR Dikran KEVORK
      Avedis SISLIYAN
      Minas HEKİMYAN
      Garebet TEKVORYAN
      Artin ZEKI
      Asadur KUSADALIYAN
      Andon GOCEYAN
      Simpat DERNERSESYAN
      Hımayak SEFERYAN
      Aram ADİL
      Kevork TORKOMYAN
      Melkon MİLOYAN
      Behram YAKUPYAN
      Sahak YEREMYAN
      Levon PAPAZYAN
      Kevork KORAN
      Dikran ÇÜBERYAN
      Kevork ÇÜVERYAN
      Hovsep TAKVORYAN
      Krikor TAKVORYAN

      Some of the Armenians in the Ottoman Ministry of National Development

      Maresal Garabet Artin DAVUT Pasha (Minister)
      Bedros HALLAÇYAN (Minister)
      Baristor Krikor SINAPYAN (Minister)
      Krikor AGATON (Minister)
      Gabriel NORADUNKYAN (Minister)

      Armenicam Civil Servants
      Krikor ODYAN
      Mıgırdıç SINAPYAN
      Ohannes KARDAVYAN
      Bedros HORASANYAN
      Kevork PAKARAD
      Bogos HANLIYAN
      Melkon NAZIKYAN
      Karakin GAZAROSYAN
      Edvard Yervant SAMUELYAN

      Agriculture Office
      Krikor HEKİMYAN
      Eram Haygaz BEGYAN
      Mıgırdıç HEKİMYAN
      Kevork TORKOMYAN
      Nişan KALFAYAN
      Bedros KUYUMCUYAN
      Onnik İHSAN

      http://www.turkishweekly.net/article/114/some-of-the-armenian-ministers-and-civil-servants-in-the-ottoman-state-structure.html

  34. If Armenians are so horrible and so worthy of genocide , why have so many empires sought to conquer and control them, as well as to steal their land from under them? Yes, Armenians have resisted conquest since pre-Christian times, at least for 3000 years, from the Assyrians to the Russians. At the same time, they ultimately made major contributions to every single empire and conqueror that came their way…as jewelers, stonemasons, architects, musicians, caligraphers, weavers, educators, etc. And, every single conqueror has taken advantage of these skills while at the same time abusing their subject people. And, you wonder why Armenians do not trust the larger, more powerful powers of the world? The last two, the Turks and the Russians, did their best to destroy this small band of ancient survivors, to the point of murdering millions of Armenians in the process. True, this history has not given Armenians the education they need in self-rule, but no one can say that Armenians have inflicted any of the misdeeds their masters did over the last 3000 years. Armenians have always been the nail for everyone else’s hammer, and for that Armenians deserve the highest respect and admiration for resisting their conquerors need for submissive slaves. To the contrary, Armenians have worked with their conquerors to provide skills and services that came from thousands of years of settled civilization – skills that their warrior lords never developed on their own. Say what you want, but every conqueror took advantage of this level of cultural superiority and gave back very little in return. And people wonder why Armenians get pissed off? Pleases, just think about it a little bit and put yourself and your culture in our shoes (even the 6000 year old ones), and tell us how you would react or feel?

    • “The last two, the Turks and the Russians, did their best to destroy this small band of ancient survivors, to the point of murdering millions of Armenians in the process.”

      Karekin: History knows no instance in which Russians “destroyed” the Armenians, more so “to the point of murdering millions of [them]“. You must have been thinking about the Turks when you wrote this.

  35. I just found out that my comment was inadvertently posted elsewhere instead of here for all its worth. Here I post it again.

    That the Genocide is the right word and that justice is our ultimate goal should not be headers in our press any more. It’s akin to letting the commuters of LA know the benefits of wheels. The issue here is how to go around in the best way possible when you cannot get the wheel on your own and no one is willing to give you one.

    President Obama is not going to use the word Genocide. He has used Medz Yeghern instead. He may not use it during this upcoming April 24 proclamation whether we like him to use the word or not. He may settle on the verbiage of his spokesperson in the person of John Kerry who made crystal clear where this administration also stands in regard to the Armenian Genocide. Let us forget what President Reagan said. It was in pre the cyber social media era in a world that was still round and not as flat.

    President Sarkissian has made his choice and given it a spin for he knows whatever else he says will make no difference. Let us be mindful too that he is not nailing the coffin for the recognition of the Genocide. President Sarkissian’s use of the word Yeghern as well has no legal implication other than echoing our sentimental attachment of the term Medz Yeghern.

    • Vahe,

      Are you President Obama’s spokesman to know what he will or will not say?

      “Let us forget what President Reagan said.” Why? Go tell a fellow American to forget “Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country” that John F. Kennedy said. After all, it was in pre-cyber social media era in a world that was still round and not as flat, wasn’t it?

      Maybe it’s for the better that Mr. Obama will not use Medz Yeghern during this upcoming April 24 proclamation. After all, with or without the word Medz Yeghern his proclamations don’t specify what crime in his native English language has been committed against the Armenians and who committed the crime.

      As for Mr. Sarkissian, I don’t believe there was an urgent need for him to expand on something that other head of state has said. As with the ill-famed defeatist Turkish-Armenian protocols, Serj has been ordered to comply and, being an unpopular president, he did. “Medz Yeghern-Genocide” linguistic gymnastics is not a pressing issue within the Armenian society. It should thus be clear that Serj’s referring to it was an outside political order, not that “he knows whatever else he says will make no difference”. Don’t be silly, Vahe.

  36. M. Gauin: You said, “Lemkin coined this word to describe the Holocaust.” This is, at best, a half-truth. He coined the word to define and identify a class of crimes that has occurred throughout history, including The Holocaust. Do you deny this? Do you think it was correct or not of Lemkin to use his own word to describe the Holocaust? Do you consider The Holocaust a genocide or something else? Do you understand the opening paragraphs of chapter 9 of “Axis Rule In Occupied Europe”, in which Lemkin introduces the word genocide and spells out quite elaborately what he means by it, as relating only to the Holocaust? Does the word genocide have any legitimate meaning in your view, and, if so, could you give some examples of its use that you consider valid? And If you do not consider Lemkin an authority (on what, you do not say), then please give us an example of someone whom you do consider one.

  37. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 16, 2013 at 12:51 am // Reply

    In all above possts,I don’t see one that describdes the ENVY factor that incited the turks to oppress, murder,loot ,this that their raya Armenians.The mighty ottoman Empire against a minoity deprived of carrying any kind of objects that might be used as a weapon* even the paper cutting ZMELI-small knife-Kept Ermneis as second class Millet and thought of them as unable to fight back!!!!
    Indeed how could the majority of Armenians UNARMED fight mighty armies.
    Moreover the Envy factor drove the Turks to desperation!!!!
    This is w/ref to a psyche that dominated their mindset and also the innate desire*come from Genkiz khan days to conquer by sword ..oppress etc.,
    One more very important TACTIC that even today is evident within their manners is the very sophisticated one that by and by and yavash Yavsh,is the stage by stage ,slowly injected threats to make the opposite side stay in an uneasy state of mind,in extension affect the adversary’s mind with suspicion that any moment the THREAT MIGHT BE CONVERTED into real HARM.Witness these days little brother Axerbaijan. daily snipings,after ARMISTICE was signed betweeen the two parts.More recent UNABASHED ones the few murder cases* of old Armenian women in Istabulla.then again the state sponsored axerbaijani one that if Stepanakert,NK Newly reconstructed Airport is operated admitting flights in and out from armenia , the Civiliann aircraft will be shot down!!!!!
    Now go figure out what kind of people Armeniasn have had to put up with and still do.\SOME NEIGHBOURS INDEED!!!!!!!!
    IN LIGHT OF THESE FEW exampoles I believe to discuss and debate with sons of those poepl is plainly a waste of Time…so [precious to us.
    Even that might be strategm by them ,in order to divert our abilities otherwise very usefull from more fruitfull issues that can help us DEPEND ON US O N L Y and forget about coming to terms iwth such ppeople..
    One last suggestion>/Let the others try to corect them if they still think they are a corrigible lot….

  38. avatar ragnar naess // February 16, 2013 at 7:20 am // Reply

    Boyajian
    The placque is apparently racist. It essentializes Armenians as traitors and also – intriguingly – as “subordinates”. My main point in Erzurum when speaking to Turks ewgarding this was that they must also mention that innocent Armenians were killed, not only the innocents that were killed by Antranig and other “avengers” as sometimes is claimed by Armenians.

    Regarding the genocide definition and the assertion that the ittihadist leaders were guilty of genocide in the sense of the convention this is another matter. We have been through this before. Remember that this is a tangled issue, the point is not to apppy the definition according to one’s own ideas. Present case law and precedences provide a number of prerequisites. For me this is a fairly technical question and I would not try to answer it.only warn that it is not so unambiguous as many think. But the MORAL question is something else. The CONSEQUENCES of ittihadist policies is something else.

  39. Random Armenian:
    I want to express my support for and appreciation of your excellent summation of issues surrounding Raphail Lemkin as they have developed in this discussion. You say “It seems that in order to deny the Armenian Genocide, people are also slyly undermining Lemkin and his work.” That hits the nail on the head. Slyly undermining his work, on the one hand, but appropriating him, on the other, when it seems convenient.

  40. Justice starts at home!

    • whose home, Murat? The victims’?

    • Yes, it does start at home. Your Turkish home.

      Ask your PM Erdogan to stop protecting the conspirators of the Hrant Dink murder, and bring them to justice.

      Ask the Establishment to find the suspects who savagely beat up 3 Armenian Senior citizens in Malatya, and slashed one to death.

      Ask them to find the murderer of the Turk computer science teacher of an Armenian school who was slashed to death.

      Start there. The you can come to AW and discuss justice at our home.

  41. An interesting thread. Reading all these comments, it has become even clearer to me there can never be a good relationship between Turkey and Armenia. The only thing that would satisfy Armenians would be a catastropic outcome for Turkey (loss of territory, huge reparations crippling Turkish economy, endless lawsuits, etc). Don’t get me wrong. I can see why Armenians would want these things. But it would be utter stupidity to expect Turkey not to oppose these outcomes. What country on Earth would be like, “Well, they are right, we are wrong, so here is 1/3 of my country, here are the keys, and we have even left a bottle of champaign as a house-warming present.”

    Frankly, as an Azeri, I am gladd to witness this obsessions of yours. Out of its own interests, if “the geopolitical situation changes,” in the region, Turkey will do all it can to indeed wipe out Armenians republic off the map, if it can do it. Probably through the Azeri hands. Would Russia ever allow that? Well, that is the whole definition of a big geopolitical change, right. Don’t you guys feel nervos that your country’s very own existence depends Russians. What a great outcome that would be for Azerbajan. Caucasus without Amenia? BUt wait a second. There is no need for a big geo change for that … Armenia is already running out of ARmenians already :)

    • “..Turkey will do all it can to indeed wipe out Armenians republic off the map, if it can do it…”

      Such nonsense. Turkey was the FIRST state to recognize an independent Armenia. It was Russians who snuffed it out and to this day it remains a backward Russian outpost. Maybe you are not that well versed in these matters. I do not recall any rhetoric coming from even the most nationalist corners in Turkey about wiping Armenia off the map. Which is amazing really, given the hateful propaganda that is thrown around generously in their direction.

    • don’t you feel nervous that your country’s very existence depends on its oil – which is definitely running out ?
      how long do you think Azerbaijan would last as a country in its present form if not for the support of West’s oil interests ?
      You really think Azerbaijan would exist without the US stopping Russia and Iran from dismantling it right now ?

      Armenia may or may not run out of Armenians. But Azerbaijan will run out of hydrocarbons for certain. Once West loses interest in the empty gas station, Russia and Iran will help Azerbijan’s oppressed minorities to overthrow the TatarTurk oppressors. (you heard about the riots a couple of weeks ago in a Lezgi region: Yes ?)

      And Armenia’s and NKR’s demographic situation is a lot healthier now than it was in 1994, when Azerbaijan, facing massive defeat at the hands of numerically inferior Armenians, sued for a ceasefire.

      Don’t count on population disparity to help your cause. Very few of those 9 million Azerbaijan citizens (3 million of whom are in Russia)
      will fight and die for lands they know deep down inside does not belong to them. Even Azeris admit this. (look it up yourself: read what Yusif Agayev, an Azeri veteran of the war and military expert said).

      And don’t get your hopes up by reading gloomy public articles about Armenia’s population. Lots that goes on at the ground level is not being publicized by Armenians – for very sound geostrategic reasons.
      I’ll give you one hint: the fecundity of Armenian women in certain important regions is very, very ‘healthy’.

    • [What country on Earth would be like, “Well, they are right, we are wrong, so here are the keys, and we have even left a bottle of champagne as a house-warming present.”]

      Germany is one such country on Earth. There are others accepting guilt, as well. Interested? Let me know. Will provide the list.

      [There is no need for a big geo change for that … Armenia is already running out of Armenians already]

      Don’t place your hopes on that, Kerim. Armenians worldwide have the proven ability to mobilize. And never forget that 150,000 Arsakh Armenians were able to defeat the hugely outnumbering Azeris.

    • [Turkey was the FIRST state to recognize an independent Armenia.] Such nonsense. The first two states that recognized the independence of the third Armenian republic in 1991 were Greece and Cyprus. Stop the bull****, Murat.

      [I do not recall any rhetoric coming from even the most nationalist corners in Turkey about wiping Armenia off the map.] Such nonsense. “Armenians had not learned the lessons of World War I (read: the genocide). Turkey must show its teeth to Armenia. What harm would it do if a few bombs were dropped on the Armenian side by Turkish troops holding maneuvers on the border?” — Turgut Özal, President of the Republic of Turkey. Source: The New York Times of April 18, 1993

      And, I guess, Turkey’s refusal to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia, Turkey’s closure oif land border with Armenia, and Turkey’s imposition of blockade of Armenia are all gestures of peaceful intentions and good-neighborly relations. Murat?

      I also guess that supporting AXEbaijan with military advisors and ammunition during the Artsakh War was a gesture of peaceful intentions and good-neighborly relations?

      And wiping out 2 million Armenians in the most barbarous, savage ways from their native lands in the Ottoman empire and beyond, in 1915 through 1922, was a gesture of peaceful intentions and good-neighborly relations, as well?

      Your posts are such nonsense…

  42. Ragnar naess and Maxime Gauin, I am sure you are rights that Andrannik did kill a lot of Turkish civilans. But, even true, this does not mean the Armenian Genocide is a falsity, just as John Doe getting killed by X is not negated by the fact that John Doe did manage to punch X a couple of times.

    I think Turks should, instead of denyuing Genocide, should instead focus on neogiatiating a deal with Armenians for some kind of justice/compensation that does not bankrupt them, with a minimal land grant. But, I am sure that Armenians would never agree to anything less than a catastropic outcome for Turkey. Why? It is the Middle Eastern revenge thing. “You killed my grandfather. For that, I will make you pay DEARLY!”

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 17, 2013 at 7:28 am //

      “Ragnar naess and Maxime Gauin, I am sure you are rights that Andrannik did kill a lot of Turkish civilans. But, even true, this does not mean the Armenian Genocide is a falsity”
      I never established such a direct logical connection. If you are interested, please read my articles. Several, including two scholar papers, are available for free on the web.

    • yes: please read his supposedly scholarly articles.

      here is one snippet of what to expect from his supposedly scholarly articles available free on the web:

      {A new bill criminalizing the “denial” of the unsubstantiated “Armenian genocide” claims was introduced in the French National Assembly with the barely implicit support of Mr. Sarkozy.} (Maxime Gauin. Hurriyet December/19/2011)

    • Read my post above, Kerim, if you will. Andranik’s 200+ volunteers (mostly Bulgarians and other Balkan representatives) were a small regiment in the Bulgarian army with Andranik being a naturalized Bulgarian citizen. Poster Gauin attempted—in the best Turkish distortionist traditions—to equalize the mass annihilation of the Armenians by the Turks in a no-war situation (I mean Turks vs. Armenians) with the First Balkan War where the regular Bulgarian army was fighting the regular Ottoman army. This is one of many cheap Turkish attempts, to which Turkophiles liker ragnar naess subscribe, to juxtapose the genocidal extermination of the Armenians in 1915 with war atrocities against Turkish occupiers that took place in the Balkan war of 1912-1913, in which the Armenians—as a nation—had no involvement whatsoever. Poster Gauin dug out a Bulgarian citizen of Armenian extract in a foolhardy attempt to show that Armenians—on the whole—had participation in Balkan wars or in the atrocities against the Balkan Turks. It’s a nightmarish and laughable allegation that, I believe, no serious, self-respecting scholar would support. Turks and their sycophants don’t tire in exploring anything—anything at all—in order to justify the savage mass murder and forced deportation of the Armenians. The historical truth is that neither the WWI nor the Turks’ beloved fable about maintaining security of their crumbling empire can explain the mass murders of the Armenians. Most of the vilayets in which Armenians had lived (they were called “Armenian Vilayets” even by the Turks) were far from the war zones or fronts, and the prevailing majority of the Armenian population posed no threat whatsoever to the security of the Turkish state. Turks just wanted to have homogeneous, insular nation-state for themselves salvaging as much territories free of Armenians as possible. This was one of the major reasons—possibly THE major one—for the genocide of the Armenians to happen.

    • Maxime, as someone who did seek out some of your pieces, I have concluded that you are nothing more than a distorter and disinformation person.

      I have saved one gem of yours from the Journal of Turkish Weekly since it is a pretty classic example of the kind of distortions that the Turkish state propaganda depends on.

    • avatar Berge Jololian // February 20, 2013 at 12:39 pm //

      Kerim,

      It is not about revenge as you describe. Turks occupy lands that does not belong to them, acquired-by-way-of-genocide. This is not Hallal. Turks prospered on the stolen wealth and property of Armenians. Again this is not Hallal. The Turks have not only murdered humans, destroyed an ancient culture, civilization and rewritten history, but 99.7% of Turks continue to legitimize the act as well as the racist ideology that led to the act.

      To the Turk occupier: get the hell off my land.

  43. AXEbaijan is in the process of erasing the memory of the Hungarian people of the night Azeri AXE killer safarov.Please read the here below:

    Azerbaijani Ambassador to Hungary meets with administration of country’s Public Television

    15 February 2013 19:45 ]
    Baku – APA. Azerbaijani Ambassador to Hungary Vilayat Guliyev met with managing director of Hungarian Public Television – “Duna TV” Menyhért Dobos and head of the International Relations Department Mrs. Esther Cantor.

    The Embassy told APA that preparation of a series of programs on the history, culture, literature and art, cuisine and common moral values of the peoples of the two countries on the Azerbaijani and Hungarian electronic mass media were discussed at the meeting.

    The administration of “Duna TV” expressed their willingness in the development of new programs in cooperation with the Public Television of Azerbaijan, if the agreement is reached.
    http://en.apa.az/news_azerbaijani_ambassador_to_hungary_meets__187965.html

    Everybody needs to write to the Hungarian Duna TV & complain…

    • good find VTiger.

    • VTiger, don’t make a laughing stock out of yourself by such silly protests. If anything, HUngarians will get even more irate with you … complaining over a silly documentary. You will have displayed the degree to which you are aflame with the hatred of everything that is Azeri/Turkish. Don’t you have something better to do with your life than sending protest letter to a Hungarian TV station? Talk about obsession.

    • Kerim,we know very well how your mafia leadership operates,lying,cheating bribing & so on…for example “BBC Newsnight uncovered evidence of secret payments from Azerbaijan to World Series Boxing, to allegedly guarantee two golds.” or father dictator aliyev’s statue in Mexico city ($5 million of poor Azeris’ money)which was removed by the Mexicans…
      I see that you personally is caught naked by the actions of your leadership.Understandable.Your tone has changed-hatred,obsession- makes me laugh.Where do you see all that in my post?

    • Kerim,we know very well how your mafia leadership operates,lying,cheating bribing & so on…for example “BBC Newsnight uncovered evidence of secret payments from Azerbaijan to World Series Boxing, to allegedly guarantee two golds.” or father dictator aliyev’s statue in Mexico city ($5 million of poor Azeris’ money)which was removed by the Mexicans…
      I see that you personally is caught naked by the actions of your leadership.Understandable.Your tone has changed-hatred,obsession- makes me laugh.Where do you see all that in my post?

  44. M. Gauin: you say (regarding Antranig): “I never established such a direct logical connection. If you are interested, please read my articles.” Unwittingly, this sums up your whole modus operandi: to deftly juggle half-truths then finish with a toot on your own horn. You must be running out of an interested audience in France. I’m sure when you have written something genuinely peer-reviewed and original it will show up on our radar screen without your quite unattractive urgings.

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 18, 2013 at 12:09 pm //

      Diran, your radar needs to be repaired. Without even mentioning my articles published by Turkish journals, I wrote in the “European Journal of International Law” (an Oxford journal) last year, and in the “International Review of Turkish Studies” (Utrecht University), issue of Winter 2011-2012. Of course, it is not finished.

    • Diran,

      I’ve just read some of what he has produced and it isn’t worth the time (mostly regurgitations of Turkish state propaganda). Perhaps that is why he has resorted to self-publicity in the comments section of an electronic newspaper (as if any scholar would seek out a Turkish journal for articles on the Armenian Genocide!).

    • radar can be repaired, if determined to be faulty.

      but how does one cure Denialitis ?

      although scientists and doctors are working day and night to find a cure, nothing on the horizon yet. according to 4 out 5 dentists, even cancer has more of a chance to be cured in our lifetime than the dreaded debilitating disease Denialitis. (named after those who spontaneously contract it while engaged in the risky asexual behaviour of denying the Armenian Genocide)

      I have personally contributed US$19.15 to the ‘Defeat Dreaded Debilitating Disease Denialitis’ fund.
      wish could do better, but genocidal CUP Turks stole all my ancestors’ accumulated wealth: I can barely make ends meet.

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 19, 2013 at 11:17 am //

      Avery, sincerely thank you for this response, precisely because there is not a single counter-argument within. If you were able to produce such counter-arguments, of course you would do that.

    • Maxime: you are sincerely welcome.

      I don’t play the game Denialists want us to engage in: endless sophistry, word plays, vacuous debates and meaningless discussions.
      There is no counter argument to those who believe the Earth is flat.

      Ernst Zundel was hauled off to jail as he was screaming “…no counterargument, no counterargument…”

      You will get your counterargument when AG Denial becomes law in France, and you have to permanently stay in Ankara.

      btw: you denying the TZ accusation is no counterargument.
      if and when you sue and force TodaysZaman to retract their accusation, then come back to AW and discuss counterargument baloney.

  45. no, there is of course no logical connection saying that if Andranik killed innocent Turkish civilians there was no genocide of Armenians. – I’ll look for your articles, Maxime!

    • [no, there is of course no logical connection saying that if Andranik killed innocent Turkish civilians there was no genocide of Armenians.]

      Andranik was a commander of a small contingent of non-Armenian volunteers in the regular Bulgarian Army that fought the colonizing Ottoman Army during an official war, the First Balkan War of 1912-1913. It does not imply that he “killed innocent Turkish civilians” in a sense Ottoman Turkish barbarians mass killed innocent Armenian civilians during a no-war situation in 1915. Civilians are being killed in any war on both sides, in case someone doubts the fact.

      Stop the nonsense and infantilism!

  46. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 17, 2013 at 12:07 pm // Reply

    VTiger,
    Armenians as a rule are easy going and a conformist lot, rather than standing the ground and/or defy,challenge and counter -act.
    You see only a few days ago* I watched this on Armenian H1 Channel T.V.,there was a demonstration in Budapest , Hungary w/ref to your post.That is the erasing from memory of the Hungarian people as to the barbarous murder of our officer asleep… etc.,
    In short, we ,even if not a large community in Hungary,know when to take to the street.But what we lack IS TO COUNTERACT TO THE AXERI MACHINATIONS,such as above described in your post. For that the Govt. of Armenia has to act,as the adversary Axerbaijani…which sadly RA does not have petro dollars to spend that wise…..
    However, if we -hopefully-come up to my “”suggestions” of establishing a National Investment Trust Fund ,then we can respond properly and neutralize the Axeri moves.We were successfull, in Mexico City removing Ali*Baba( Aliev father’s statue from a Park they had pompously erected thereat….
    best,g.p

  47. How on earth can anyone be so simple-minded as to think that any population on earth will offer absolutely no resistance when faced with the torture and rape of their women and girls, the murder of their intellectuals, the intentional starvation of their children, the forced evacuation from their lands, the confiscation of all their wealth, the destruction of their culture, etc.? Is anyone so incapable of rational thought that they would expect an intelligent race of people, unarmed though they were, to be led without any resistance like sheep to slaughter? What kind of person expects a man to sit quietly with thumb in mouth while his sister or daughter is being brutally raped, while his unborn child is being cut out of a living womb, while his mother is being doused with gasoline and burned to ash? The handful of us who survived did so in large part because a small number of our men who escaped being murdered placed their own lives on the line and, against all odds, somehow resisted the barbarians. These resistance fighters are our heroes. Without them, most of us would not be alive today. We should have a special day of commemoration in their memory every year. We should regularly recall their names with pride, build monuments, and erect plaques everywhere in their honor. Turks who expect us to apologize for our hero resistance fighters, are too simple-minded, too detached from reality, to have any rational discourse with.

    • I don’t care about Armenians who killed Turks during the genocide or in its direct aftermath- Operation Nemesis. Good riddance, I hope all those Turks burn in hell. I am more concerned with things like the Esenboga Airport attack. And how those ASALA perpetrators whose only regret that day was that they didn’t kill enough people are still respected, and how people approach them with “understanding.”

    • RVDV,please read the here below which probably you have by Ayse Gunaysu,”The Reign of Lies in Turkey & then think again & comment:

      Lies for all of us

      I also said in the beginning, “including the writer of these words,” when talking about being the transporter of that specific type of lie, i.e. hiding the truth. It was only a few months ago that I came across the story of ASALA member Levon Ekmekjian, who was executed by hanging in 1983 in Ankara under the military rule, on charges of being one of the perpetrators of the “Esenboga massacre” in Ankara in 1982. We, the members or sympathizers of Turkish socialist-revolutionary parties and groups of that time, some of us in prison, some in hiding in Turkey, some political refugees in foreign countries, took for granted the military rule’s account of the Esenboga attack. Even if there were individuals who were exceptions, they have never been vocal. The absolute silence about Ekmekjian in the memoirs of “revolutionaries” and books compiling the stories of persons executed under the military regime of the 1980’s clearly indicate how we avoided questioning the official account about ASALA’s Esenboga attack, and how we simply ignored the case of Ekmekjian.
      http://www.armenianweekly.com/2012/05/11/gunaysu-the-reign-of-lies-in-turkey/

    • VTiger: Regardless of the military state account, ASALA took responsibility for it.

      http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925699-1,00.html

      http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19820809&id=24pQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=010DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6825,39244

      And, Ekmekjian confessed and expressed remorse. Now it is highly dubious he got anything resembling a fair trial, but hey, don’t kill civilians at a Turkish airport and you won’t have to deal with the Turkish “justice” system.

      http://www.itnsource.com/en/shotlist/RTV/1982/10/06/BGY512201145/?v=0

      Look, for me, regardless of motive, a terrorist is a terrorist. I can sympathize with ASALA and even PKK, I understand they are coming/came from. I realize it was not them who threw the first punch, but terrorism won’t solve anything. It just further inflamed Turkish hatred. You can find ways to justify the murders of diplomats. I don’t agree with it, but you can. But the people at Esenboga were not diplomats. They were civilians. two werent even Turkish citizens. Is anyone who flys Turkish Airlines an accomplice to the crime of genocide and fair game?

    • RVDV,I totally do not agree with terrorism as well.States are the first ones which commit terrorism up to the present.Example: States’ (Turkey,S.Arabia,Qatar,US,UK,France)intervention in the affairs of Syria is terrorism.
      States twist facts to reach to their objectives.
      Anyhow I have always my doubts as usual with what Turkey does & says.
      Why did you bring up the ASALA issue in this article which has nothing to do with it?

  48. M Gauin: As I suggested, when you have written something genuinely peer-reviewed and original it will show up on our radar screen. No repairs necessary. With the heavy hints that you have not ceased dropping I found what must be one of your more brilliant refutations of the “genocide label”.

    “The repression of crimes committed during the relocation, by the CUP government, is not only an argument against the genocide label itself, but also, more generally, against the allegation of criminal designs by this government against its Ottoman population.”

    I don’t know if your peers at the European Journal of International Law care to ask (why would they question you?!), but I do: What repression of crimes committed? Committed crimes cannot be”repressed”, obviously. Too late for that! Okay, but let us call it suppression of crimes, not to quibble. Which crimes? Crimes against whom, where, when? Repression of what crimes, by whom, where, when, in relation to whom? Relocation of whom, where, when? These are questions that genuine peer-review would have made unnecessary. And yet you think you can dispose of the whole “genocide label” so easily? What a laugh! No wonder Ragnar Ness can’t get enough of you!

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 19, 2013 at 11:27 am //

      I don’t think I am the commentator of this article who has the greatest need to polish up on his English. The repression of a crime necessarily follows a crime. If it takes place before the crime, it is not repression, it is prevention (prevention is good, needless to say).

      “Crimes against whom, where, when? Repression of what crimes, by whom, where, when, in relation to whom? Relocation of whom, where, when?”

      You have the reply to your questions in my paper, and even more in the references duly provided in the footnotes.

    • {Sources told Today’s Zaman on condition of anonymity that the intelligence official in question is historian and researcher Maxime Gauin, who has written books against Armenian claims of genocide. He is currently an intern at the International Strategic Research Organization (USAK) in Ankara.…..Sources told Today’s Zaman that the report is authentic. The report has a fourth level of confidentiality, which is restricted distribution.} (TodaysZaman 30 March 2012 )

      Today is February 19, 2013. Almost 1 year since the publication of the article.

      We are still waiting for Mr. Gauin to sue TodaysZaman for libel and force a retraction of the story that he claims is false. IF it is false.
      And we know Mr. Gauin is not shy about suing.

      So, what is Frenchman Monsieur Gauin – who works in Ankara – waiting for ?

    • Maxime, I only wish there was a way to “prevent” you from spreading your distortions and filth in this comments section.

    • Some of the comments of this French mercenary working for USAK & doing their dirty job like all mercenaries & from whom he receives orders to write:
      1.Ergun Kirlikovali
      5/14/2012 6:27:34 PM
      Maxime Gauin write a factual and insughtful essay. We have left, for too long, the task of identifying the Turk and Turkish history to anti-Turks. Do you think any Armenian lobbysist would mention, even in passing, the tiniest hint about Armenian complicty in war crimes and hate crimes committed by Armenian gangs like ARF, Hunchaks, Ramgavars, and many other armed, militant, viciously violent groups? Franco-Turkish relations must be purged of Armenian propaganda if closure on WWI is sought.
      2.Maxime Gauin
      5/16/2012 2:27:51 PM
      “We want to excavate them from the mass graves & give them proper burial.” The totalitarian dictatorship which rules Syria since decades is a great friend of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation—logical: the origin of the Baas party is a pro-Nazi group, and the ARF was vehemently pro-Nazi as well. Why was there not a single attempt to find corpses of Armenians since decades, in Syria? Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918.
      My replies:
      1.V Tiger
      5/17/2012 12:06:51 PM
      ‘Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918.’It is not enough for you to steal our land,culture,heritage & NOW YOU STEAL OUR MASSACRED?About Armenian mass graves in the Varto region,read: Rebel Land: Among Turkey’s Forgotten Peoples by Christopher de Bellaigue,p111 valley of Newala Ask.Shame on you.
      2.V Tiger
      5/17/2012 11:45:57 AM
      Have you heard about ‘Armenian Genocide Memorial Church, Der Zor’?Google it.

      http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=449&nID=20634&NewsCatID=396

      Of course he goes cold.
      Shame on you you mercenary & enough of your insults.
      There will come the day of the judgement when you & your likes will meet the right punishment for further torturing us.Shame on you!

  49. avatar gaytzag palandjian // February 18, 2013 at 7:59 pm // Reply

    No To Ragnar naes…(is this Dutch?,no let me guess, this must be a Georgian name abit modernzied perhaps..anyhow…
    General Andranik NEVER, repeaat, Never gave or he himself killed either Turk women,children and or elderly.to soldiers he took prisoner, treated well.he ordered his soldiers to do so…as well.
    I have read extensively about him. If he had not been let down by the (then) British Commanders in the Caucases,he would ahve netered and liberated NK.He was then disilusioned when latter did not live up to their promises that they would arrange for the Tatar-azeris to leave NK and Nakhijevan.His efforts to forge ahead and throw out all the Tatars-azeris from Armenian lands affected him and also the Armenian Council in Tbilis that braked his military advances.
    That´s why he decided to leave Armenia and travel overseas,ending up in Fresno,CA,where he passed on…

  50. Harut is absolutely correct, particularly when you see the Azeris are promoting what happened in Khojali as a genocide. If that episode was a ‘genocide’ (which it categorically was not), then 1915 was an ultra- genocide of a magnitude that is clearly unmeasurable and unimaginable by human minds. On that level, you are all correct – there is no accurate word in any language to describe what happened to the Ottoman Armenians…it was and still is, indescribable. But, in order to convey the level of human misery, overall destruction and theft associated with Turkey’s CUP era…we must find a word in English and that word is, very simpley, genocide. There is no other word that fits…but many that can accompany it…like racial extermination, holocaust, ethnic annihilation, extermination of a people, etc. Those are all close relatives of genocide, are they not? And, all were visited upon Armenians.

    • avatar Berge Jololian // February 26, 2013 at 2:52 pm //

      Karekin,

      Do you have anything new to talk about besides genocide, genocide and genocide and more genocide. Really?

      So, let us say Turkey tomorrow says yes, it was genocide. Then what? Would that satisfy you? Or maybe you would want to discuss more genocide?

      Have you thought about genocide acknowledgment with accountability? Such as land, reparation and restitution?

      Did you ever consider that the aim of the denialists is to keep Armenians at bay in endless arguments about the details of genocide – away form accountability?

      As long as Turkey does not pay a price (punishment) for the worst crime humanity has given it a name Genocide – Turks are quite comfortable and planning another genocide such as blockading Armenia’s western frontiers, such as military support to Azerbaijan.

  51. avatar ragnar naess // February 19, 2013 at 5:01 pm // Reply

    Gaytzag Palandian,
    the name is Norwegian. I have been intermittently in this debate forum for quite some time. I have never done any extensive research on Andranik Toros Azanian. As far as I understand he was the leader of the four Armenian volunteer units formed by the Russians in late 1914, and fought the Ottoman general Halil at Dilman in late april shortly after the fighting at Van erupted. Then he was operative in the Russian conquest of Van in May 1915, and later in the Russian advance towards Malazgirt and towards Bitlis in june. Now there are narratives of massacres of Turks in Van when the Russian and Armenian units took the city in May. These are from missionaries that is neutral or pro-Armenian sources. The Venezuelan Nogales who served with Halil and returned with him from the fighting at Dilman, tells that “neither Armenians nor Turks gave any quarter” and killed each other indiscriminately without taking any prisoners. Peter Holquist cites Russian sources in his article in “A Question of Genocide” which also confirm massacres of Turks, to an extent that whole valleys were depopulated. The monument we visited outside Erzurum was about Turkish civilians, mainly women and children who allegedly were locked in a mosque and burned alive by Armenian units who had failed to take Erzurum some days before. But my concern in this situation was the onesidedness of the Turkish spokesmen on this occasion, a conference on “Turkish-Armenian relations”. I believe all parties appeared both in the role of victim and perpetrators in this terrible catastrophy, but of course these killings, if they really took place, came after the considerably bigger mass killings of Armenians in 1915-16. In my debates in the WATS listserve some Armenians scholars referred to these killings as the acts of “avengers”. So from my scant knowledge I doubt that it is true that Andranik never organized or refrained from hindering massacres of Turks. But of course I may be wrong

    Maxime, what was the reason for the disbanding of the Armenian units in late 1915? .

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 21, 2013 at 12:23 pm //

      I explain the reasons in my article on the Armenian volunteers, published by the “International Review of Turkish Studies” a bit more than one year ago.
      You will find my e-mail address in my article for the “European Journal of International Law”. I have lost yours, I will tell you why.

  52. GAUIN: “Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918.”

    Where exactly were these “thousands of skeletons of Muslims” found?

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 21, 2013 at 5:53 am //

      Alaca (Erzurum), Yesilyayla (Erzurum), Timar (Erzurum), Oba (Igdir), Hak Mehmed (Igdir), Subatan (Kars), Zeve (Van)…

    • All the mass graves found in Turkey & they total more than 300 are the mass graves of Armenians.What the mercenary says is the Turkish version that these are non Armenian mass graves & as usual to cover up.Where are the skeletons of the 1.5 million Armenians perished?Where are the skeletons of my massacred family?

      The locals know the TRUTH very well as it had passed from father to son.They know it very well.
      Again read this book.
      About Armenian mass graves in the Varto region,read: Rebel Land: Among Turkey’s Forgotten Peoples by Christopher de Bellaigue,p111 valley of Newala Ask.

  53. where exacty is this plaque that commemorates the mass murder of turk civilians? How far from Erzurum is it? what is the name of the village? were they primarily Turks living in that village? Is it just a small plaque or is it a major memorial?

  54. Out of curiousity, how do you distinguish Muslim skeletons from Christian ones?

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 21, 2013 at 5:55 am //

      If there are small Kurans close to the skeletons, you can assume that the people were Muslims. If, in addition, you make blind DNA tests with the supposed grand-children of the victims, and if the tests are positive, you can say without doubt that the victims were Muslims.

    • Look at the audacity of this dirty mercenary.
      I am ready for a DNA test & let us see.

    • {“you can say without doubt that the victims were Muslims.”}
      So how is a DNA test supposed to determine one’s religion ?

      And this guy is supposed to be some kind of a scholar ?
      Does any real scholar out there know of a DNA test that can determine one’s religion ?

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 21, 2013 at 12:12 pm //

      “So how is a DNA test supposed to determine one’s religion ?”
      Who are you trying to convince with that?
      I repeat: “you make blind DNA tests with the supposed grand-children of the victims.”

    • No need to repeat your nonsense. go and read your own post.
      don’t change the wording.

      you wrote: {“…..were Muslims”}

      admit you don’t know what you are talking about.

  55. avatar ragnar naess // February 21, 2013 at 5:12 am // Reply

    The name of the village is Cinis (today ortaköy) in the Aşkale Ilçe, approxoimately where the West-going road from Erzurum bifurcates in the roads to bayburt and Erzincan. There is a whole monument to the memory of the killed ones, close to the village, across the road near an old Turkısh cemetery. The visit of the scholars of the Conference in early may 2012 was reported in newspapers, see http://www.dha.com.tr/erzurumda-toplu-mezar-ziyareti_307934.html
    There is even a photo of us standing in front of the memorial. The placque is in a building which is part of the memorial, and in which we had lunch.
    From the information I found through a google search, it appears the killings took place in april 1918. Kazim Karabekir’s troops arrived a short time afterwards, it is said, and witnessed the bodies/ the remains of the people burned.

  56. Boyajian; here is the Turkish method of distinguishing an Armenian skull from a Turk one.
    A couple of years ago, I was walking with a group of scholars down Queen St in Toronto Canada. Queen St has small art galleries, boutique stores. We saw a store selling carpets and we went in to look at them. I am always alert to Armenian patterns being passed off as Turk, so when the owner asserted a carpet with a woven cross in the corner was a genuine Turkey pattern, hand made by Turks, I questioned him. In the course of our conversation, he told us that the carpet came from an area where they had found thousands of skulls of murdered Turks. I asked how he knew they were Turks and not Armenians. With an absolutely straight face, this man stood in front of us and said that it was very easy to know if a skull was Armenian or Turkish. They simply measured the circumference. He said it is well known, documented research that Armenians have smaller skulls than Turks because they are less intelligent and therefore have less grey matter in smaller skulls,. The scholars I was with were all “odars” with PhD degrees behind them. We all left the store convulsed with laughter. It was simply impossible to stop laughing at this empty-headed, idiot Turk’s comments.

    • Don’t be too harsh on the Turk carpet seller, Perouz: their demigod, Mustafa Kemal, actually commissioned ‘scientific’ experiments to measure skulls.

      {With full official support, she began a countrywide campaign of “cephalometry” (measuring the skulls of living people), “craniometry” (measuring the skulls of dead people), and “phrenology” (inferring characteristics from skull features). A staggering 64,000 people are known to have been “measured” during this campaign — and many graves were opened, including that of Sinan.}

      (article in Hurriyet. ‘she’ is Kemal’s adopted daughter Afet İnan)

    • Perouz,this skull measuring issue is a famous one.In1935 the Turks measured the skull of ‘Mimar Sinan’ to prove that he was not Armenian.Funny enough & since then his skull is not in his grave.
      Of course they ignore a decree by Selim II dated Ramadan 7 981 (ca. Dec. 30, 1573), which grants Sinan’s request to forgive and spare his relatives from the general exile of Kayseri’s Armenian community to the island of Cyprus.

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 21, 2013 at 12:17 pm //

      @ Avery and VTiger: I strongly recommend you the collection of “Hairenik” and “Hairenik Weekly” for the years 1935 and 1936.

    • Maxime and Maxime:

      I strongly recommend TodaysZaman, March 30, 2012.

    • Deranged frustrated mercenary,”I strongly recommend you the collection of “Hairenik” and “Hairenik Weekly” for the years 1935 and 1936″, explains nothing.

  57. Congratulations for your bold article.
    I completely agree with you. “Céder sur les mots, c’est céder sur les choses” has said Freud. (I’ll let translate into appropriate english terms)

    It has been a long time since I am firmly convinced that the only way out of all this mess for armenian people is to undertake legal action, that is to file lawsuits against the turkish government in national and international courts.
    Too much time has been lost!

    Who can believe half a minute hat Obama or any other government leader are men of their words?….

  58. in some of the cases of mass graves there are also oral history that confirms it.

    • A good example of father to son passed oral history is:
      Armenian mass graves in the Varto region,read: Rebel Land: Among Turkey’s Forgotten Peoples by Christopher de Bellaigue,p111 valley of Newala Ask.

    • {“…..there are also oral history that confirms it.”}

      Please observe our sophisticated Denialist guest at work:

      When it comes to Turks, it ‘confirms’ it: no doubt about it.
      When it comes to Armenians, it is a source to ‘discover’ something, that may or may not be there: subtly inject doubt and uncertainty.

      to wit…a trip to the memory lane:

      {“ragnar naess April 28, 2012
      oral history certainly is a very important source for discovering what happened in Eastern Anatolia and Syria in 1915-16.}” (@AW)

      {“VTiger April 28, 2012 Hi Ragnar,hope you are well.Absolutely there’s no need to discover what happened.Discover?I should consider it as an insult …It’s a fact for us the Armenians & for the rest of the world.”} (@AW)

      [above Public Service Announcement message was brought to you by your local Inbreeding Armenian. I am Avery the Inbreeding Armenian, and I approve this message.]

  59. One example is the discovery in October 2006 of a mass burial site close to Kızıltepe in the province of Mardin in South-East Turkey. Villagers from the Kurdish village Xirabebaba – the official Turkish name is ”Kuru” – were digging graves for their own inhabitants, and found a cave full of skeletons. They explain that their parent- and grandparent generation had told them that Christian Armenians had been massacred in this place in 1915. David Gaunt ,them as partly Armenians, partly Assyrians and even provided a date 14 of july 1915. the turkish historian Halacoglu who was involved in an investigation however said that the skeletons probably were from Roman times. —-
    In the same way old Turkish villagers in Zeve in the Van area identified the place where Armenians had killed villagers during WW1, and excavations were also made. — I think one has the main burden of proof if one holds that there are no mass graves of Turks massacred by Armenians from this terrible period, only mass graves of Armenians– In Cinis I spoke to an old man for whom these memories were alive because he had heard it from his parent and grandparent generation. He told that these events had been related to him as a child. Possibly because he was closer to these events, taken as personal tragedies, he agreed with me that one should also focus on massacres of Armenians. At least this is what he said.

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 21, 2013 at 3:28 pm //

      There is no doubt that a massacre of Christians took place close to Mardin in July 1915. The date provided by David Gaunt is, not surprisingly, inaccurate, since the document mentioning this slaughter is date July 12, 1915: Hikmet Özdemir and Yusuf Sarinay, “Turkish-Armenian Conflict Documents,” Ankara, TBMM, 2007, p. 161). The slaughter is also mentioned in the field notes of Emory H. Niles and Arthur E. Sutherland, published by Brian Johnson in 2010 (I am speaking of the field notes, not the report published in 1990 by Justin McCarthy).
      But the skeletons discovered in October 2006 were not the skeletons of these people.

    • 1. Mercenary:
      a)”There is no doubt that a massacre of Christians took place close to Mardin in July 1915″
      Now,now,now…Who are those Christians other than the Armenians & Assyrians?Couldn’t you write down Armenians & Assyrians or it is forbidden by your master?
      b)”Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918″
      http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=449&nID=20634&NewsCatID=396

      Now,now,now again…How could you differentiate between a Muslim & Christian skeleton?
      Answer:Depending on the aims & targets of the propaganda machine USAK that pays your French mercenary blood tainted salary.

      2. Ragnar:
      I totally do not accept your 2nd paragraph Turkish side story,nor the mercenary’s “Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918″.
      Mainly & a very simple logic.Turks & Kurds were the ones left on my confiscated butchered homeland.And if there were any killings of Turks they would have given them a proper Muslim burial immediately afterwards.They would have very well known wherever the killings had taken place & please do not come up with contrary excuses as it is an insult to your French & Norwegian brains.
      You both do not understand the mentality of Muslims & the Islam religion & local customs & taboos.

      Both of you instead of being here trying as hard as you could & with whatever tricky methods & with whatever bits that you get hold of that suits your master’s aims & targets, trying to convince 2nd generation Genocide survivors who were brought up with the forever tears & sufferings of their parents GO & CONVINCE THE HONORABLE TURKS & KURDS INTELLIGENTSIA WHO HONORABLY APOLOGIZED FOR THE MASSACRES COMMITTED BY THEIR FOREFATHERS.

  60. I have been to this complex of monuments and plaques. It may very well be the most shameful example of genocide denial ever erected in history. It stands as proof of the claim of the International Association of Genocide Scholars that when genocide is denied by the perpetrators, that genocide is perpetuated. I was there with a small group who were on pilgrimage to their villages. We wanted to hold in our hands the blood soaked soil where our ancestors had once lived. I am reprinting what is on one of the plaques so readers will know how low Turks have sunk in their efforts to deny the barbarism the world already knows about. Please note that they have shamelessly even used the April 24 date. Several pilgrims were overcome with grief as we stood in front of this monument of denial. There is no question as to the validity of scholarly research that documents the effects of genocide on succeeding generations. These Genocide deniers are supporting the actions of evil barbarians with their revisionist histories. They are doing it in order to not be held accountable for their actions – present and past. There can be no more reprehensible goal than this.

    I have copied below exactly what is carved on just one of these free standing, large plaques. All spelling, punctuation, and grammar is exactly as shown on the plaque except I have not capitalized all font.

    YOU TRAVELER !
    This land piece, on you unintentionally step
    Is a land where an age had passed,
    Lean and carefully listen to this mass of land,
    It is the crucial part, the heart of a motherland.

    This monument is put up by the Kars Governorship on the 1992, in the memory of our innocent civilian people who had lost their lives during the Armenians’ trial of wiping the village of Subatan of the map.
    At the end of the 1 st World War and after the Brest-Litovsk Agreement, while the Russians were drawing back from this region, the Armenians who had found the opportunity to do anything began a massacre in all the villages in the west of Arpacat.
    It is still told in tears by our citizens, living in this region, that on 24 th of April 1918 Armenians entering the village called Subatan gathered the people and took their valuable belongings and jewelry, put the people together into the haylofts, poured kerosene, and set them to fire, cut the heads of some of the villagers with axes without separating child old woman or man cleaved the abdomens of our pregnant women, stick the bayonets into the unborn babiesleft the corpses around to be pulled and torn into pieces by the dogs.
    And totally 570 Turkish had been murdered brutally and painfully.

  61. Ragnar Ness: You wrote: “There is even a photo of us standing in front of the memorial. The placque is in a building which is part of the memorial, and in which we had lunch.”
    If the text I have copied above is the plaque you are refering to, it is not inside a building. It is large, free standing, and outdoors, imbedded in gravel. I have a photo.

  62. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79mXzUrxVHs

    Yes, Harut, you are correct. It is called Genocide, the Armenian Genocide. And, it is being perpetuated by denialists. Yes, Justice is the Ultimate Goal. It will come.

    • avatar Berge Jololian // February 21, 2013 at 5:54 pm //

      What is Justice? A vague undefined demand! Justice according to whom?

      The ultimate goal is Accountability. Genocide acknowledgment with accountability.

      Accountability is land, reparation and restitution.

      Frankly, the denialists on this post have won by cornering you exactly where they wanted; that is for Armenians to argue endlessly about the genocide, weeping and victimization, and not discussing accountability.

      Sad but true.

      Asking for “Justice”, sounds like the crying beauty queen speech who wishes for World Peace upon receiving her crown in the pageantry competition.

    • And demanding “accountability” when you have no plan to achieve it is not any better. So back to square one.

    • Mercenary & Ragnar,watch this clip provided by Perouz & pause exactly at 0.50 second & inspect the photograph properly & see this mass grave & ask yourselves the questions:Is this how Muslims bury their dead with the onlookers & diggers pausing for this photo shoot?Do you see an imam?Do you see anybody crying over the dead?Is there any shrouded corpse as how Muslims bury their dead?Don’t Muslims bury their dead individually?

  63. avatar ragnar næss // February 22, 2013 at 3:44 am // Reply

    Perouz
    no, the text you copied is another text. The text I reacted to was different. And as your text says this was another village, Subatan in Kars vilayet, not Cinis in Erzurum.
    RVDV
    There is to my mind no fault in asking for justice even if you despair of how to achieve it. If the territories allotted to Armenia in 1920 in sevres is an expression of justice today, is another matter. But I note that president Özal considered goiving parts of Van vilayet to Armenia

    • [president Özal considered goiving parts of Van vilayet to Armenia]. –Really? Did he consider this before or after his threat to drop bombs on Armenia?

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 22, 2013 at 4:32 pm //

      “But I note that president Özal considered goiving parts of Van vilayet to Armenia”
      That’s just a rumor.

  64. avatar ragnar naess // February 22, 2013 at 6:01 am // Reply

    Vtiger
    Well, your last message is of a kind I have seen many times in AW. I have made my statement earlier and even cited sources that are friendly to the Armenian cause.

    • Ragnar,I do not know to which of my comment you are referring,as you have started a new thread.
      In summary all the mass graves that have been discovered & surely to be discovered in the future are the mass graves of Armenians & Assyrians.
      Denialists keep on repeating:where are the mass graves when they have even confiscated our skeletons.

  65. The denial complex at Subatan has many plaques, a very large sculpture of two armed soldiers. So, why are the Genocide deniers so hung up about Subatan that they would build monuments on this scale to a small village with about 570 inhabitants? This was not a Turk village as the Genocide deniers want you to believe. Its population was primarily Greek and Armenian. On the morning of November 2, 1920, a clear, cloudless day, in front of the Greek village of Subatan, Yerevan’s Tenth Reserve Regiment, assisted by Mourad of Tsronsk’s mounted group of Daron’s elite soldiers fought against Aghpapa’s Turks with great success, in spite of being greatly outnumbered by the enemy. The Turks lost 75 – 100 men; we lost 3. Could this be what is so difficult for the Turks to swallow that they put up plaques?

  66. avatar ragnar naess // February 22, 2013 at 2:09 pm // Reply

    Vtiger
    I answered the post where your message to me started with the words:Ragnar:
    I totally do not accept your 2nd paragraph Turkish side story,nor the mercenary’s “Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918″

    As I said I believe it is convincingly documented that Armenians massacred Turks, but this fact has really nothing to do with the Armenian cause strictly speaking. It is the Armenians who have asked for recognition of the Genocide and they should have a better answer. Whether Armenians massacres Turks or not is another question and – whether true or false – it has no relevance for the Armenian demand for recognition.

    • Ragnar,if you comment on my comments please continue the thread so that I & readers follow the thread line.Starting new thread is unprofessional.
      Subject was the mass graves & all discovered & surely in future to be discovered mass graves are of Armenians & Assyrians.There are no Muslim mass graves.

  67. Old Anatolian saying: When asked for proof the fox pointed at his own tail.

    The following is a quotation from the preface of Yusul Halacoglu’s “The Story of 1915: What Happened To The Ottoman Armenians?”

    “In point of fact every historical source shows that the Armenian gangs were engaged in plans for establishing an Armenian state and. . . . thus the Armenians were drawn into a disaster from which they could not emerge. This struggle made the Armenians see people whom they had lived alongside for centuries or even millennia as enemies and led ultimately to their leaving their lands.”

    The Armenians left? They hated their neighbors and left? Every historical source shows. . . . .? This is what passes for serious scholarship at the “Turkish Historical Society”? But what about the infamous “deportations”? Oh, temporarily forgotten! And yet this is the source Gauin cites for a footnote supposedly disposing of the whole idea that there was genocidal intent on the part of the CUP.

    And what documentation does Halacoglu offer? References to Ottoman documents that are inaccessible to any objective outside observer and can therefore be made to say whatever Halacoglu wants them to say. Where are the transcripts of the proceedings and what is their availability so that one can see whether the accused were actually tried for murdering innocent Armenians or rather for keeping the spoils taken from them in violation of the rules of the criminal enterprise that employed them?

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 22, 2013 at 4:31 pm //

      1) Yusuf Halaçoglu relies also on British, U.S. and French documents, not only on Ottoman ones.

      2) A significant part of the Ottoman documents used by Yusuf Halaçoglu are published since years.

      3) The unpublished documents are available easily. Ara Sarafian, Hilmar Kaiser and Taner Akçam (among others) worked in the Ottoman archives. You missed Dr. Kaiser’s interview: http://khatchigmouradian.blogspot.com/2008/03/interview-with-hilmar-kaiser.html

    • {“A new bill criminalizing the “denial” of the unsubstantiated “Armenian genocide” claims was introduced in the French National Assembly with the barely implicit support of Mr. Sarkozy.”} (Gauin, Hurriyet, December/19/2011)

      It is interesting that Gauin invokes Hilmar Kaiser.
      His published works (from the blog):
      “The Baghdad Railway and the Armenian Genocide, 1915-1916: A Case Study in German Resistance and Complicity,”: got that Gauin ? Genocide.
      “1915-1916 Ermeni Soykirimi Sirasinda Ermeni Mulkleri, Osmanli Hukuku ve Milliyet Politikalari”: got that Gauin ? Genocide.
      “Le genocide armenien: negation a ‘l’allemande’”: got that Gauin ? Genocide.

      About Halacoglu:

      {K.M.—How would you qualify Halacoglu’s scholarship…
      H.K.—The book on the 16th century is very good…
      K.M.—No, I mean his scholarship on the Armenian genocide…
      H.K.—This is not so easy, you have to see who is he. He is the representative of the Turkish state. If there is a real debate between persons with intellect and command of sources, Halacoglu leads the Turkish team.}

      He is the REPRESENTATIVE of the Turkish State. Clear ?

      So how do you do a DNA test to determine who is or isn’t a Muslim, putative scholar Maxime Gauin ?

    • The General Staff Archives for Military History and the Strategic Studies Center (ATASE) are still closed.

      http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-266585-1915-new-ethics-and-new-paradigm.html

    • Hilmar Kaiser:”Then you have the kind of politically well-connected third-rate academic creatures who are only interested in escalating the situation because they can only live on escalation, because they have nothing to offer.”

      http://khatchigmouradian.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/interview-with-hilmar-kaiser.html

      Hellloooooooooooooo! Doesn’t the above very well description remind you of the mercenary?

  68. What gets lost in the whole argumentation/diatribes from denialists like Maxime Gauin and Ragnar Naess; so you believe the Turks were just taking precautions, that these were merely “deportations”, “unfortunate events”, Armenians were a “fifth column”, etc. Well then please explain what befell the Assyrians in Asia Minor during the same period.

    The Assyrians were eradicated in almost equal numbers (and actually considering their pre-war numbers, suffered a proportionally larger genocide than the Armenians. Were the Assyrians held in same regards as Armenians? Werr they ungrateful, traitorous, backstabbing instruments of European powers (the same powers that kept the Sick Man alive for several decades prior to WWI yet is conveniently “forgotten” by the Turks).

    In the case of the Assyrians and Armenians, it is actually overlooked that the genocide in earnest began in the Spring of 1914 ( though April 24, 1915 is the symbolic date based upon the arrest and murder of Armenian notables throughout Asia Minor) in Persian territory during the first Turkish offensive against Russian forces on the Russian-Armenian/Ottoman/Persian frontier. (lake Urmia, Khoy, etc.) These two populations (Armenian and Assyrian) were slaughtered wholesale by the Turkish Army with elements of Kurdish and Tatar bands in that locality- they were specifically targeted and this was the in the very beginning of the Ottoman Empires involvement in WWI. These peoples were not citizens of the Ottoman Empire, but they were indeed Christians and thus subjected to mass-murder.

  69. @Maxime Gauin
    Can you tell us please why do you refer to Hilmar Kaiser in all your posts and articles? As far as I know Kaiser is a genocide scholar and he only said some nice things about the Ottoman Archives and Turkish historians because he wanted to infiltrate the Turkish side. He always declared at our meetings in Boston that he is very critical of the ruling AKP, Islam and the Fetullah Gülen movement and that he will write a book about the denial industry in Turkey. And you forget that he showed new evidence that the Memoirs of Naim bey are true (http://asbarez.com/56524/is-a-long-overdue-controversy-finally-settled-aram-andonians-infamous-naim-beys-real-identity-is-now-considered-revealed/). Prof. Sarafian who holds the Dennis Papazian Chair in London always said that the Turks are hiding documents. So I think that you´re again wrong with your baseless claims!!!

    • avatar Maxime Gauin // February 22, 2013 at 6:19 pm //

      1) I was replying about the access to the Ottoman archives. You refrain from replying to Hilmar Kaiser’s statements on the access to Ottoman documents.

      2) Regarding Hilmar Kaiser’s publications, you may take a look at this article for… “The Armenian Weekly”: http://www.armenianweekly.com/wp-content/files/AW_Apr08.pdf#page=16 which is in perfect continuity with his interview to the same newspaper, some weeks before. And also: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14623528.2010.528999

      3) I am not the spokesman of AKP or Gülen movement, so what could say or not Mr. Kaiser on these organizations is merely irrelevant. What he said on the Ottoman and Turkish archives is, however, relevant.

      4) I know Ara Sarafian’s wrong statements in 1990s on the Ottoman archives, but the basic facts deny his allegations. He made 3,000 photocopies in the Ottoman archives (Hilmar Kaiser made 6,000 photocopies in the 1990s, plus countless photos in Ankara in the 2000s). Mr. Sarafian, however, is perfectly able to make more accurate remarks: http://www.reporter.am/go/article/2008-12-18-study-the-armenian-genocide-with-confidence-ara-sarafian-suggests (points 3, 4 and 5).

    • Gauin:

      before throwing up more smoke and mirrors, and flooding the posts with selective links, answer this:

      How do you propose testing whether a skeleton is ‘Muslim’ via DNA, as you asserted above.
      Why don’t you provide a link to the scientific paper, presumably written @USAK, which shows that DNA testing can be used to determine a skeleton’s religion.

      Also, when are you going to sue TodaysZaman for outing you as an intelligence agent ?

  70. @Avery
    Turks and denialists like Gauin try to use Kaiser against us. But Kaiser always said genocide – despite his last article about Jamal Pasha. [1]That is the main reason why Gauin celebrates his name and findings and interviews. But denialist Gauin ignores that serious scholars responded to Kaiser´s article and proved that Kaiser is wrong with his thesis that no genocide occured in greater Syria.[2]

    [1.] Kaiser, Hilmar: Regional resistance to central government policies: Ahmed Djemal Pasha, the governors of Aleppo, and Armenian deportees in the spring and summer of 1915, in: Journal of Genocide Research, Volume 12, Issue 3-4 (2010), p. 173- 218.

    [2.] Gust, Wolfgang: The Question of an Armenian Revolution and the Radicalization of the Committee of Union and Progress toward the Armenian Genocide, in: Genocide Studies and Prevention, Volume 7, Issue 2-3 (2012), p.251- 264. ( Gust declared: However, facts showing the extent of the genocide have been overlooked. This article will use archival documents from the Foreign Office of the German Empire, the Ottoman Empire’s wartime ally, to demonstrate the shortcomings of Kaiser’s evidence and arguments.)

  71. The turks can put away their tape measures. The following is documentation of witnessed events during forced deportation from a village in Moush.

    “The second day after they took the men in our caravan to the mountain, the sheep-milking women of Oghnout came down from the mountain and told us that our men had been massacred in a valley of the Khundili Mountain called Merguzur. They said there were wounded men still alive under the corpses. When night fell, Moushegh Malikian crawled out from under the pile of dead men and dragged himself to the Armenian shepherds.”

    The following is from the same writer on the death caravan route. This caravan ended in Diyarbakir. Anyone left was murdered on the bridge there.

    “We went through Khoshmat in the morning. This village, whose inhabitants had all been Armenian, was now an empty ruin. Everyone had been deported a week before our arrival. There was a horrible stench in the streets. Fifteen to twenty corpses lying under the burning sun had turned the color of ash. Three or four women had somehow managed to remain in one of the houses in the gardens of Khoshmat. They begged for permission from the caravan’s tchavoush to bring baskets of fruit to us. These women told us that 1300 Armenian youths were brought from Kghi two days earlier to be taken to Palu. Turkish soldiers had massacred them at the bottom of Nbeshi.

    We came out of the gardens of Khoshmat and walked on a long road from where a narrow path climbed up to Nbeshi. The massacre had started on that path. The bodies of those 1300 unarmed Armenian youths lay before us. Those lying on the path had been killed with axes. Many had fled to the field of wheat further up the road, where bullets had then killed them. Corpses completely covered the field. Many Turks still toured around them like black vultures, flipping the corpses this way and that, taking their clothing and valuables off them. Heartbroken and lamenting, we passed from this hideous place and went toward the hills of Amarad, where we saw the bodies of 500-600 youths at the bottom of a road, all of them massacred with axes. Their bodies were piled on top of each other in a pit. They were from the villages of Palu, mostly of Havav. Walking in a slow funeral procession, everyone weeping, we reached the city of Palu at noon, where we stayed in front of the fortress.”

  72. Thank you for your input dear Perouz.

    Dear Berge Jololian, You put it perfectly well and to the point. These Turks in here, being ragnar naess or Maxime Gauin, have successfully cornered the Armenians by endlessly trying to prove their stand that an entire nation was indeed murdered. Whereas it has already been proved by the world since the 1920′s when President Woodraw Wilson drew the map of Armenia all the way up to the Black Sea to give back Armenians their lands after the Turks annihilated the entire Armenian race and drenched their own lands with their own blood, all over the Armenian Highlands (Western Armenia). It wasn’t just 1,5 Million but more than 2 Million Armenians were murdered mercilessly by the Turkish government. President Woodraw Wilson well knew as well as the entire world knew it, that’s why Wilson wanted to give back part of our lands for the very same reason:

    ACCOUNTABILITY FOR OUR LANDS, REPARATION AND RESTITUTION.

    WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR IT FOR 98 LONG YEARS…. IT’S ABOUT HIGH TIME.

    • Siroun:

      Mr. Naess is Norwegian, who has professed to being in love with and infatuated with Turkey.
      Mr. Gauin is French, although he is currently working in Turkey @USAK.
      Both are highly polished, highly intelligent, sophisticated AG Denialists.

      And although some Armenians have fallen and continue falling into their trap of attempting to endlessly convince them of this or that, rest assured they haven’t cornered most of us. Their sophisticated denial methods have been studied extensively. Many of us old-timers know them well.

      There are very effective methods of ‘working’ with Denialist Turks and Turkophiles. They are very simple really, but there has to be a mental attitude change in the person to use those methods. I cannot reveal them here for obvious reasons, but we can observe how Jews deal with JH denialists and copy their methods, with necessary modifications to suit our unique situation.

      Most Armenians are just too nice and too quick to forgive.
      Jews have a motto: “Never forget, Never forgive”.
      And they practice it. Armenians should start emulating Jews in that regard.

  73. avatar Random Armenian // February 23, 2013 at 2:03 am // Reply

    Regarding the discussion of the archives … There are several archives and not all of them are fully open. There have indeed been visits to the archives by Armenian Genocide scholars but again, not all of them, specially the most relevant and critical ones, are not open or very hard to access.

    Below is a wikileak that discusses known and possibly still ongoing cases of destruction of archives. I’m sorry but there really is no trust with the Turkish government regarding the archives, or that matter and honest and open look at the countries history:

    http://www.armenianweekly.com/2011/09/10/wikileaks-stepping-out/

    The thing with Maxime Gauin is that he has studied well enough so that he can obfuscate with facts and red herrings.

  74. VTiger,
    You write: Ragnar,if you comment on my comments….unquote. I am sorry abut the sequence of messages, sometimes these are jumbled by the way. I see that you deny that Armenians performed mass killings of Turks. I cannot se that we get any further in this question. I produced some sources , so if we are to discuss it I suggest you look these up. But would’nt it be natural – according to human nature – that if you have killings you aso have revenge killings?
    My part in this discussion started with my reporting my reaction to the one sided Turkish memorial. But I see no reason to deny that Armenians also killed innocent Turks, as Turks and Kurds killed innocent Armenians on a much larger scale, I believe.

    • Ragnar,just to explain to you how to continue & comment on the same thread you go to ‘Reply’ under your name & press that.
      Now please do not put issues in my mouth that I did not write or discuss similar to ‘Armenians performed mass killings…’
      The subject was the ‘mass graves’ & I will repeat again that all mass graves found & surely in the future that will be found will be of Armenian & Assyrian mass graves.I explained to you the logic behind this conclusion.Finito,basta.

  75. M. Gauin: Your 1, 2, 3 answer is no answer.

    1) What other sources Mr. Halacoglu may consult is not the issue, although he is to be complimented on his versatility in languages.

    2) “A significant part” of Ottoman documents does not address whether that includes the documents used in the footnotes on pages 82-86 of Halacoglu’s book. If those have been published why did you not refer to them?

    3. It is well known that Sarafian and Kaiser had tremendous difficulties completing their work in the Ottoman archives and were denied further access at the point they were just getting their wheels on the ground in terms of research.

    One further point, I did not miss the Kaiser interview. I am still not aware of any publication by either Kaiser or Halacoglu of their material on the prosecution of war criminals during the war. Do you have that information?

  76. Joseph,
    You write: What gets lost in the whole argumentation/diatribes from denialists like Maxime Gauin and Ragnar Naess; so you believe the Turks were just taking precautions, that these were merely “deportations”, “unfortunate events”, Armenians were a “fifth column”, etc. Well then please explain what befell the Assyrians in Asia Minor during the same period. Comment: I believe you and I have never discussed before. I never said that the Ottomans only started “deportations”, that there were “unfortunate events”, etc. To my mind a great crime was committed against the Armenians and also against the other Christian minorities. This is the bottom line, and Turkey must assume more responsibilities for this, apologize and make reparations. Since Turkey has been asked to do this for decades and has given unsatisfactory answers – even if there is some progress – the whole issue boils down to a Turkish responsibility and liability.—- But this does not mean that the term “genocide” is necessarily appropriate, or WISE, to use. And it certainly does not mean that because Turkey is something to answer for, that Armenians do not have anything to answer for. Regarding the Assyrians, I am not able to say much, but agree that they seem to have been victims of a pervasive suspicion of the itthadists, who, not unreasonably given their previous experiences with Christian Ottoman groups, possibly decided to make a pre-emptive attack on them to forstall any future difficulties. —But then of course the Nestorians in Haskkari received weapons from the Russians and were fighting the Ottomans in the Van area in early 1915. The cause for justice is badly served by insisting that the Ottoman Chruistians were 100% innocent and the Muslims 100% guilty. It is a recipe for defeat.

    • another polished denialist gem from our dear Denialist guest.

      {“But this does not mean that the term “genocide” is necessarily appropriate, or WISE, to use”}

      Oh yes it is appropriate.
      Oh yes it is very wise.

      And Mr. Naess, do you honestly believe we Armenians are going to take advice from a Turkophile Norwegian AG denialist who has called many of us posters here @AW “inbreeding Armenians”, and has insulted the sacred remains of our murdered ancestors (“disposed of”) ?

      And who is also a good friend and frequent guest speaker of the notorious Denialist Justin McCarthy ?

      Do you really, actually believe Armenians are that dumb ?

    • ragnar naess,
      You wrote to Avery: “Turks and Kurds killed innocent Armenians on a much larger scale, I believe”. I believe? I believe????? First off, they didn’t just killed, but they murdered, and Secondly, the word believe is a Number One Denialist word and MUST NOT BE TOLERATED IN THESE COLUMNS, where an entire race has been uprooted from their OWN anscestral lands and mercilessly murdered premeditated by the Turkish Ittihadist government.

      You wrote to Joseph: “This does not mean that the term “genocide” is necessarily appropriate, or WISE, to use.” Of course it is. GENOCIDE is the only APPROPRIATE word to use.”

      Yes Armenians were 100% INNOCENENT during, before and after the GENOCIDE. If you don’t know it, now know it that much before the 1915 – 1923 the Armenian GENOCIDE, Armenians were constantly targeted, mercilessly annihilated and tongues were cut out if they only uttered the Armenian language. The Red Sultan Hamid II annihilated 300,000 Armenians from 1895-1896. And in-between Armenians were never free or unafraid in their own lands. The pretty girls and women and the little boys were constantly kidnapped, raped and killed by both the Turks and the Kurds. It was a constant chaos in Turkey for the past 1,000,000 years ever since the Osman Turks set foot on Armenian Highlands.

  77. Ragnar and Maxime, as an Azeri, by default I used to think the Armenian genocide to be a false claim. Then, after reading on it very briefly, I concluded that it really happened. Frankly, I had not paid enough attention to it to try to see both sides of it. But it seems that there are some “foreign” scholars like yourselves who have a more nunanced take on those events. Of course, as Azeri I must have some kind of a bias for wishing that it was a falsity (since Armenia is our enemy). Still, I am now curious to read a bit more on what you guys have to say. As for the Armenians blankly rejecting anything and everything you have to say, it is understandable but to be discounted by a non-Armenian. As for bias, it is more likely that an Armenians is biased than a Norwegiian scholar. Of course, the latter can be boughts. But still, it is still more likely that you are more objective than an average Armenian who has nothing to gain from such objectivity.

    But I have one question for you. Why do you care? I could understand if you were trying to prove it to have happened, because so many civilians died and you’d be wanting recognition and justice. But denial? Why spend so much energy on it? Personally, if it is uncertain I would give the benefit of the doube to he plaintiff than to the defendant. What if you are wrong? How unjust would that be to the memories of the victim? And if you are right? Not a big deal. So what, ok, Turks did kill a lot of people but it was not a genocide. I mean it is so anti-climactic. Why do you care? If you say, that is because you care about truth. Well, there are so many truths in the world to chase? What is consciousness? Why did Big Bang happen? Chase those truths, instead of digging in the archives of a defunct empire.

  78. avery
    you wrote: another polished denialist gem…..and so on. Comment. Yes, we disagree. We have been through this before. You believe in repetition and warning others to take my word seriously. Are you sure this is a good strategy? And I insist on remebering that you said you graduated with honours on “pstychological warfare” from a KGB academy in Baku. If you deny it I have to look through all my shelved texts from our discussions, and they run into thousands of pages by now….
    Siroun, you wrote:
    ragnar naess, You wrote to Avery: “Turks and Kurds killed…comment. : If you want to be informed about my views, you might read the debate after “Bedrosian, in search of lost churches”. I take it you express disagreement with me, which of course is legitimate. But maybe you have noted that I reacted to the one-sided messages of the Turks while I was in Erzurum in a conference. I also hand out leaflets to Norwegain tourists going to Turkey, asking them to ask about the fate of the Armenians. Last time was on february 9 for the ones going with the Norwegian Air Shuttle DY1262 to Antalya. However with the self service book-in it has become more difficult to reach these tourists. Earlier they were standing in long lines. I do this because I believe indifference is our main enemy. Many of these tourists would probably agree with you, but they are very passive and they know very little, so if they are convinced it will mostly be simply because of our general anti-Turkishness which I see in many Norwegians. This is not good enough. Anti-Turkishness produce no good results.
    Kerim
    I care because I always cared about human rights, and I worked for ten years as a volunteer in Amnesty International Norway with a specialty on Turkey. My turkish friend was arrested in 1984 and tortured and I helped him to Norway. So I have a very close relationship to Turkey, and Turkey cannot be fully democratic if it doesnt come to terms with its own past.

    • {“Are you sure this is a good strategy?”}
      You betcha. (that’s how we says it out here in the American West).

      {“And I insist on remembering that you said you graduated with honours on “pstychological warfare” from a KGB academy in Baku.”}
      You can insist until you are blue in the face.
      I know what I said about KGB: retrieve the post, and read between the lines.
      And if you are so sure I said ‘Baku’, show me the post. It is highly improbable for me to have said Baku, because I was born in Yerevan: never been to Baku. (Oh, btw: what if I did in fact graduate from KGB academy in Yerevan. Problem with that ?)

      I’ll make you a deal, Denialist: you prove I said ‘Baku’ and I will stop reminding my compatriots that you called some of us “inbreeding”.
      If you fail to prove I said ‘Baku’, you will publicly apologize to readers of AW for calling some of us “inbreeding” AND for using the phrase “disposed of”. (no weasel words, like you did before e.g hurt feelings and such nonsense: you will write “I, Rangar Naess, apologize for calling Armenian posters @AW inbreeding….”: we will negotiate the exact wording later).

      Deal ?

  79. From Naess: “The cause for justice is badly served by insisting that the Ottoman Chruistians were 100% innocent and the Muslims 100% guilty.”

    So saying, Naess finally–finally!– gets to his real point.

    I would say this in response: In a question of international law and historical truth, the cause of justice is poorly served by superficially dwelling on the supposed moral characteristics of two different groups of people. The factuality of the Armenian Genocide does not rest on the supposed moral purity of the Ottoman Armenians, nor is it undermined by their moral imperfections. That idea is a complete fallacy and red herring. The question is one of history and state policy.

    • avatar Random Armenian // February 26, 2013 at 2:23 am //

      Exactly what Diran said. The Naess quote is a strawman argument. The Armenian Genocide is not about Muslims being 100% guilty.

      And this is also how many nationalistic Turks who have a problem facing their history react. They try to show that Armenians were not all good. It’s a childish argument and reaction. Naess is accusing Armenians of making the opposite of what Turkish nationalist do.

      The Armenian Genocide is not a judgment for or against groups of people as a whole. That would be racist. That’s the thing about genocides, it targets people on a superficial trait such as one’s ethnic association.

      The other subtle argument Naess is making is that somehow the Armenian Genocide is about hate towards Turks. It’s an attempt at undermining credibility by painting Armenians with judgement corrupted by hate. Thus our story, what happened to us should not be taken seriously.

    • avatar ragnar naess // February 26, 2013 at 2:40 am //

      Diran
      you write:
      From Naess: “The cause for justice is badly served by insisting that the Ottoman Christians were 100% innocent and the Muslims 100% guilty.”

      So saying, Naess finally–finally!– gets to his real point.
      Comment: You are too quick in determining my real point. My point is that when for instance VTiger says that “I will repeat again that all mass graves found & surely in the future that will be found will be of Armenian & Assyrian mass graves” this reveals an illegitimate reluctance to admit that Armenians also committed mass killings. Even Taner Akcam writes in his “A Shameful act” that “attacks on Muslim villages had become commonplace even before the Van uprising”(p.216 in the paperback edition). I mentioned other sources. How can one be sure about empirical findings in the future? For me this attitude is disquieting, similar to the attitude of Turks that, in spite of some exceptions, was typical in Erzurum when I was there.
      You write:
      I would say this in response: In a question of international law and historical truth, the cause of justice is poorly served by superficially dwelling on the supposed moral characteristics of two different groups of people.
      Comment: I never said anything about moral characteristics of peoples (or did I?), and I dont hold that one meaningfully can assert anythoing about this
      you write.
      comment:
      The factuality of the Armenian Genocide does not rest on the supposed moral purity of the Ottoman Armenians, nor is it undermined by their moral imperfections.
      comment: Yes, of course I agree. My comment was directed at the apparent reluctance of several participants here who appear to have a great reluctance to admitting that Armenians also committed mass murder in these years.
      you write:
      That idea is a complete fallacy and red herring. The question is one of history and state policy.
      comment:
      Yes, of course! Only for curiosity’s sake: what did I say that indicated to you that I wantede to reduce the question of fact and legal justice to a question of something like who are the “good” and the “bad” guys?
      By the way, my whole preoccupatuion with this styarted with my being disgusted with the ones who arranged a conference on Erzurum. We may disagree on many things, but let us not invent disagreements where there are none.

  80. avatar ragnar naess // February 26, 2013 at 2:50 am // Reply

    but let me add, in fairness, that the argument “surely the Turks would have buried any Turkish victims of massacres. So we dont expect to see any mass graves of Turks” is a valid one. I cannot give an answer. And unless there is a commission of neutral researchers that dig up the remains from this terrible period, we cannot know if what is portrayed as Turkish skeletons are not in reality Armenian or Assyrian skeletons.
    Maxime
    you mention that one can identify skeletons by comparing DNA with alleged relatives. But has this ever been done in actual practice?

    • Regarding mass graves,Turkey has been the finder,judge & executioner.Armenians nor international neutral bodies were ever permitted to participate in these excavations.NEVER!
      As you saw the mercenary immediately mentioned that these were Muslim mass graves by naming few…laca (Erzurum), Yesilyayla (Erzurum), Timar (Erzurum), Oba (Igdir), Hak Mehmed (Igdir), Subatan (Kars), Zeve (Van)…
      Of course Turkey with this kind of actions further humiliates itself.The locals where these mass graves are found know very well the history & the stories behind it.
      These mass graves are the Armenian Auschwitz.

    • Don’t add anything Denialist: we have more than enough of your denialist drivel.

      First and foremost apologize to the progeny of Armenian Genocide survivors @AW for insulting them on the pages of ArmenianWeekly.

      ARMENIAN Weekly. ARMENIAN, ARMENIAN, ARMENIAN: got that Turcophile Norwegian Denialist ?

      You think we are going to forget you called us “inbreeding” ?
      You think we are going to forget you insulting the sacred remains of our ancestors ? Like Hell we are.

      Never Forget, Never Forgive.

      (thanks to my Jewish buddies for teaching me how to deal with Denialists)

  81. In reply to Kerim. It is good that you have taken an interest to learn more about the Armenian Genocide and “reading on it very briefly”. You must seek the truth, educate yourself then you will understand why Armenians care so much. DENIAL HURTS!!! The very fact that you can be so indifferent brings tears to my eyes and deep pain to my heart. You can not understand it because it did not happen to you. I wish that there could be a doubt, that we could possibly be wrong, that it there were just massacres. My ancestors, great, great grandparents come from Turkish Armenia. We have an ancient history with western Armenia. My grandmother told me that there were good Turks that tried to help, even though to do so meant they would be killed. But there is no exaggeration about the well planned barbaric destruction of a race of people. There is no doubt. It really, really happened! And to say it didn’t, or maybe it wasn’t as bad as it was, is truly grossly insulting and damaging to me personally and to those were slaughtered. Germany was wise and intelligent enough to accept what they did during WWII. Why is it so hard for Turkey to accept what happened and not deny the genocide? Then the healing process will begin. Live and let live. What’s so hard about that? You stated, “Armenia is our enemy”. At one time during the Soviet period, Armenians and Azeris were friendly neighbors. Extreme nationalist fervor took over and look where we are today. History is repeating itself with countless genocides taking place. When will it stop?

  82. Naess: “Comment: You are too quick in determining my real point.”

    Diran: Mr. Naess, you were much too late in making it.

  83. avatar ragnar naess // February 27, 2013 at 5:49 am // Reply

    dear mr. Diran (if that is your name),
    I believe we have not discussed earlier person to person (I dont know if you are a man or a woman, my knowledge of armenian names is weak), so I am a little uncertain about what to say.
    yes, I am often too late in making my main points. I prefer to line up a number of facts I believe in and then – implicitly – ask my interlocutor to draw the consequences. But certainly – I sometimes overdo it….
    but on the other hand, if you focus too much on main points – either in your intepretation of others or in your own messages, you run the risk of excessive repetition, which is the best way to kill any fruitful debate

  84. avatar ragnar naess // March 3, 2013 at 3:10 am // Reply

    But Avery,
    I answered your point about “inbreeding” and “dispose of” several times. For me your accusations and demands for apologies on this point seem almost childish.
    And since you only deny to have received this KGB education in Baku, I conclude that you received it in Yerevan. Of course this does not make any big difference regarding my advice to you, that your way of arguing sometimes seems to be a reflection of the poorest kind of AD HOMINEM arguments used in the Soviet period. But then of course your access to and use of factual arguments is something else. In these cases I have no criticism

    • but Ragnar, you wrote this, did you not ?

      {“And I insist on remembering that you said you graduated with honours on “pstychological warfare” from a KGB academy in Baku.”}

      prove I said that: don’t try to weasel out of it.

      and your answers about “inbreeding” and “disposed of” are unsatisfactory.
      you were given many chances to come clean and apologize.
      Like my Jewish buddies keep telling me:

      “Never forget, Never forgive”.

      Shalom. See you at the next post, Norwegian Turcophile Denialist friend.

  85. When Turks and Azeris want to use the word, genocide, to describe a horrific act that took the lives of several hundred in the midst of war (Khojaly), we know they can use the word, but clearly don’t understand it at all. This gives me hope, because we now know the word is actually in their vocabulary. They just need to learn how to use it honestly and accurately, and not just for anti-Armenian propaganda purposes. The eradication of an entire ethnic group on land they have inhabited for 4000+ years, by a criminal government, was clearly genocide. How or why there can be any discussion about this is kind of ridiculous. It is a false issue that they’ve created to put doubt into the minds of people, as if those people are deaf, dumb and blind to historical reality. Grow up Turkey. Grow up Azerbaijan. A lie repeated a thousand times does not become the truth, no matter what anyone says.

  86. avatar ragnar naess // March 4, 2013 at 2:32 am // Reply

    There are some mysteries regarding the posts here. Khatchig Mouradian said to me a couple of years ago that the AW is understaffed and maybe there are some different people that run intermittently to see to the posts sent in, decide if some of them use abusive language or prevent them from being presented officially for somew reason or other. But it is strange that posts sometimes comes in a different order than the one they were sent in. My comment to Avery was – to take an example – sent in earlier than my excuse to Diran. But here it comes afterwards. Possibly the editor might explan a little about the practice.

    • The editor of AW or anybody else that works @AW owes neither you nor me nor anybody else an explanation about anything they do or how they do it.

      We have discussed this before many times: you yourself admitted, if I recall correctly, that AW provides the best Comments forum. That is one reason you do not post @Hurriyet or @TodaysZaman as much as you post @AW: Correct ?
      I rarely see you post at either of those two Turkish sites, yet you are here @AW regularly and are complaining ?
      Are you paying for anything that you expect a, quote, ‘explanation’ ?

      I vaguely remember you complaining about the poor Comments capability of HDN and TZ: am I correct ?
      Isn’t it strange for someone who is a Turcophile, who has publicly professed his love and infatuation for Turkey, and who visits and posts @AW for the sole purpose of Denying the AG – in a very sophisticated way – to ask for explanations from ArmenianWeekly ?

      You get a free forum to spew out your disgusting Armenian Genocide denialist venom at a site called ArmenianWeekly – and you have the gall to ask for an explanation ?
      You don’t like it, start your own blog and run it the way you want it.
      Don’t complain about ANYTHING Armenian – dear Turkophile Denialist guest.

  87. avatar ragnar naess // March 4, 2013 at 2:58 am // Reply

    Karekin,
    I lectured on semantics and the use of words for new students in weekly courses over 6-10 weeks for almost six years. It was neither in Baku nor in Yerevan, but in Oslo and other Norwegian cities.
    The main difference is between rhetorics and what we call scientific language which is also the language of democracy taken as informed consent and dialogue to reach consensus. The Armenians adopted the word genocide in the 1940-ies if I am not mistaken – I refer to Khatchig’s lecture in Oslo in 2008. And God knows you had good reason to. For you it expresses your terrible trauma and the crimes committed against you. But when the word is used without any qualification or explanation the listeners will hear different things. I note that the group of more than twenty Turkish-born historians and intellectuals made a joint statement to the Royal Liberary of Copenhagen in january this year regarding their plans to let the Turkish Embassy arrange an “answer” exhibition to the exhibition on the Armenian Genocide made by the Armenian representative. This is a startingly new phenomenon because many of the undersigned disagree on many matters, for instance if the word “genocide” is appropriate to use. But in this declaration they are unanimous and they do not use the word “genocide”. I take it that this is the reality of the rhetorical situation today. A tacit common understanding between Armenian and Turkish activist to downplay the use of the term “genocide” is emerging, albeit in various forms, for instance in the fdorm of a policy of “making a priority of reparations rather than genocide recognition”. I see the whole thing as a debate which all the time has been more concerned with rhetorics and politics than with clarificatrion. Now some will say that clarification ois for the pedants. But I will hold 1) that the work to clarify if what happened to the Armenians was genocoide in the sense that the ittihadist leaders committed genocide according to the Conventions and recent “precedences”, must go on. Turkey and Armenia must bering the case to the ICJ. 2) a politicised “solution” by way of compromise will leave a lot of people angry and let down in both camps. I have contact with Turks who bitterly complain about Erdogan, Baskin Oran and Kemal Cicek together orchestrating a rotten compromise. Nobody will be served by a “solution” which simply means that some peoiple in high places have decided what to do. Without genuine argumentation – answering all objections – not simply clubbing people down with political realities or opprobria – there will be no real closure and no real reconciliation.

    • Ragnar,
      When the term Genocide is used the whole world understands the Armenian Genocide first & foremost.
      The Armenian Genocide is absolutely not for Turkish bazaar bargain & if this is a new phenomenon for you it is not for us.It has been an insult & it continues to be an insult.
      Simply denial of THE GENOCIDE is the continuation of the Genocide.

    • why don’t read up on how to do DNA analysis that determine a victim’s religion ?
      no need to provide links for you: you are supposed to be a scholar; you can Goole.fr it: Yes ?

      also, haven’t your read TodaysZaman enough already ? When are you going to sue them for outing you as an Intelligence Agent, which you claim is allegedly a false accusation.

    • Mercenary,you never see the big picture as we do.For us this is just a small hick up,spilled milk.From being Genocided,refugee,we are fighting in the highest echelons.How much was this issue got covered in the international media let alone the Turkish media?How many millions of Turks who were unaware & became aware of it?
      In a very short period of time we transferred our struggle inside Turkey.At present & every single day that passes the Genocide & Armenian issues are written & discussed in the Turkish media.
      We need people like you.It is helping our cause even if you’re a 3rd rated academic.The more you oppose us the more coverage & recognition we get.
      Watch out for your post & position as without it you’ll starve.

  88. avatar ragnar naess // March 4, 2013 at 10:51 am // Reply

    dear Avery,
    my points about the AW are made to make it even better as a forum. It would be even better with a more active moderator function, to my mind. Regarding discussions with Turks I now have several timeconsuming and interesting discussions. So I have made the Turkish papers a lower priority. When posts switches places I am confused. Regarding your points regarding “inbred” and “disposed of”, se my earlier explanation
    respectfully
    Ragnar

  89. avatar ragnar naess // March 4, 2013 at 10:56 am // Reply

    and Avery, whether it was in Baku or Yerevan cannot be so important, can it? Of course I said it. The main point is if you were educated in psychological watrfare or not. This is a comment on your style as you SOMETIMES show it. But I admire your up to date accounts of factual matters.

  90. avatar ragnar naess // March 4, 2013 at 12:27 pm // Reply

    VTiger
    you write:
    When the term Genocide is used the whole world understands the Armenian Genocide first & foremost
    comment: I know this is your view and I respect it. My point is that there is a movement in quite wide circles to relegate the politics of genocide recognition to a second place in the quest for justice for Armenians. I see the problems in this.

    • Ragnar,you have become the muezzin of that ‘wide circle’ which is only a Turkish government one.If you see problems for the Armenians then what are you doing except for jumping on two ropes & further muddying the waters?
      We know very well how to remember,respect & sing the praises of your Norwegian compatriots similar to Dr. Fridtjof Nansen & Mrs. Bodil Biorn.
      However you will be forgotten.
      As said before the Armenian Genocide is absolutely not for Turkish bazaar bargain & if this is a new phenomenon for you it is not for us.It has been an insult & it continues to be an insult.
      Simply denial of THE GENOCIDE is the continuation of the Genocide.

  91. avatar ragnar naess // March 4, 2013 at 5:04 pm // Reply

    Avery
    I cite from Maxime Gauin’s post of february 21:
    If there are small Kurans close to the skeletons, you can assume that the people were Muslims. If, in addition, you make blind DNA tests with the supposed grand-children of the victims, and if the tests are positive, you can say without doubt that the victims were Muslims. unquote.
    Read the last phraze. it is not a case of determining religion from skeletons, is it?

  92. What’s going on here, Avery? Are they no longer using their scientific method of measuring the diameter of the skull? Do you know who the “supposed grandchildren” are that naess is writing about? If you don’t have positive identity of a person, how do you “suppose” who their children are, let alone suppose who their grandchildren are?. They should go back to using the tape measure. Do they mean that the DNA of Armenians who were forced into conversion has now been changed into Muslim DNA? What about all those little Armenian orphan children whose mothers and fathers they murdered? After the Turks converted them, did those children then have Muslim DNA? Do their “supposed grandchildren” now also have Muslim DNA?

    There is another thing I don’t understand here, Avery, – how can “small Kurans” not have disintegrated after so many years? What were they written on? I make hand-made paper. I am extremely careful about my choice of plant material. I make sure everything in the vat is ph neutral. I size my paper with great care. I do everything possible to ensure longevity, but no matter what I do, I know it won’t last buried in the ground, or “scattered close to skeletons.” It will decay, just as mortal flesh will. I write on this paper with the best quality inks modern science can produce, and yet, I know that my words will not survive. It’s why we preserve works on paper in tightly controlled archives. We don’t scatter them close to skeletons and expect to dig them up 100 years later.

    And, about the comment: “My point is that there is a movement in quite wide circles to relegate the politics of genocide recognition to a second place in the quest for justice for Armenians. I see the problems in this.”

    Avery, do you know of any person who gives a damn about the problem any Genocide denier might have with how we choose to deal with recognition and accountability? Please bring me up-to-date on this. I somehow thought it was none of his business.

    • Right you are Perouz: excellent observations.

      VTiger already discussed the implausibility of the supposed Kurans being found next to the supposed Muslim skeletons on religious grounds.
      Also, if I recall correctly, VTiger had links to some photographs where the supposed ‘Muslim’ skeletons were found, with diggers standing around.

      And you also correctly bring up the implausibility of Kurans surviving buried underground and to be ‘discovered’ more or less identifiable as Qurans decades later.

      This is from above posts: { “Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918.” } (Gauin, originally in HDN 5/16/2012)

      So these supposed Qurans were buried in soil for about 70 years or more. The victims were reduced to skeletons. But the Qurans somehow survived.
      Plastics were not invented at that time, so everything was made from natural, biodegradable material. Qurans printed on plastic stock could survive buried for centuries in fact.
      But old paper ? Really ?

      And, yeah, everything these two denialists are building their skeleton-castle on is based on ‘supposed’. Let us take a look at what the definition of ‘supposed’ is:

      Supposed: adjective
      1a : pretended
      b : alleged
      2a : held as an opinion : believed; also : mistakenly believed : imagined
      b : considered probable.

      Merriam Webster

      Supposed: adj
      1. (prenominal) presumed to be true without certain knowledge.
      2. (prenominal) believed to be true on slight grounds; highly doubtful.

      Online dictionary by Farlex

  93. Ragnar:

    {“. If, in addition, you make blind DNA tests with the supposed grand-children of the victims, and if the tests are positive, you can say without doubt that the victims were Muslims”}

    No, you cannot. All you can say is that the supposed grand-children were the supposed grandchildren of the supposed victims. Understand ?
    You cannot tell by DNA tests a person’s religion. You are assuming they have the same religion as their parents or grand-parents. But a DNA test is scientifically unable to determine one’s religion. I know the subtlety is lost on you, but it’s OK: as I have written before, Denialitis has very serious mental side affects on those who suffer from it.
    There is no medicinal cure at this time. There is the ‘Ernst Zundel cure’, but it is still in development, not ready for distribution.

    And I have a pretty good idea why your French denialist buddy chose to use the term ‘Muslim’ in his construct: he knew if he based his manufactured discovery and supposed proof on ethnos, he would immediately run into a conundrum. It should be clear even to you what that conundrum would be, since you are an educated, intelligent man.

  94. Regarding the Qurans that were supposedly discovered on supposed Muslim skeletons: let us see what publicly available information says about handling the Quran. (if Muslim practitioners find this to be incorrect, please let us know).

    [A. Etiquettes of handling the Noble Qur'an
    The classical scholars of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l Jama'at (The Four Schools of Thought) are unanimous in their interpretation of the above verses that a person has to be spiritually and physically clean (a Muslim in a state of ritual puity, i.e. in wudu) in order to handle the Arabic book of the Qur'an (mushaf).
    What follows is the thoughts of Imam Muhammad ibn Ahmad Qurtubi (Rehmatullahi alaih) who was a great Qur'an Scholar and renowned exegisate of the Qur'an al-kareem.

    3. It is unlawful (haraam) for someone not in the state of ablution to carry a Qur'an, even by a trap or in a box , or touch it, whether its writing, the spaces between its lines, its margins, binding, the carrying strap attached to it, or the bag or box it is in. States Allah the Supreme in “None may touch it, except with ablution.” [Waqiah -79] It is however permissible to carry books of Sacred Law (Shari’ah), Hadith, or Qur’anic tafsir, provided that most of their text is not Qur’an. ]

    Now, I am not a Muslim, so don’t really know if Muslims go about their lives carrying little Qurans on their persons.
    But the admonition above clearly forbids it, unless in the state of ablution.
    Are practicing Muslims always in a state of ablution while going about in their normal lives ? I didn’t think so.

    So why would Armenians who supposedly massacred the supposed Muslims bother to bury little Qurans with the supposed victims ?

  95. avatar Random Armenian // March 5, 2013 at 9:36 am // Reply

    There are many instances where the children of Armenian families who perished in the genocide were taken in by the local Turkish and Kurdish families and raised as Muslims. I suppose it’s possible for the graves be those of Armenians and a DNA match made by a descendent of an Armenian orphan. All it would take is a somewhat of a match of one person and declare the graves as those of Muslims. I suppose we would need to see the DNA test results to be sure. That’s assuming we can trust those who made the tests.

    We know from 3rd parties that there were massacres of Armenians. Does anyone really think that the Turkish government will openly admit and acknowledge the existence of Armenian mass graves from 1915? Based on how the Turkish government has lied about Armenian history, the answer would be no.

    • Random Armenian,I had commented about the mass graves few times…”Turks & Kurds were the ones left on my confiscated butchered homeland.And if there were any killings of Turks they would have given them a proper Muslim burial immediately afterwards.They would have very well known wherever the killings had taken place”.

      Avery,the here below is the site that Perouz herself had provided & my comments:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79mXzUrxVHs
      Mercenary & Ragnar,watch this clip provided by Perouz & pause exactly at 0.50 second & inspect the photograph properly & see this mass grave & ask yourselves the questions:Is this how Muslims bury their dead with the onlookers & diggers pausing for this photo shoot?Do you see an imam?Do you see anybody crying over the dead?Is there any shrouded corpse as how Muslims bury their dead?Don’t Muslims bury their dead individually?

  96. avatar ragnar naess // March 5, 2013 at 11:39 am // Reply

    You Armenian fundamentalists just have to stick to a certain version and that makes it very difficult for you to reconsider a thesis which is demanded by your bosses and your internal loyalties in the flock (joke: I only try to ape you!)
    Congratulations!
    You have raised serious doubts in me about Muslim mass graves. Of course I am hampered by my denialist psyche, but with your assistance I hope to overcome it, but still:
    - it is hardly credible that Korans would last that long if the bodies were reduced to skeletons.
    - Avery has provided Koran citations that indicate trhat muslims did not carry small Korans about with them, BUT. the actual practices may often deviate quite a lot, som more needs to be known on this point
    -if Turks were massacred by Armenians in the last stages of Armenian resistance in 1918 to the troups of Karabekir, and the Turks immidiately afterwards retook the area in question, isn’t it very strange that the Muslims did not bury these dead in the ordinary way.(Or was there a fear of contamination which actually played a role in these matters?) This should be answered by the Muslims in Cinis and neighbouring villages because they allegedly personally knew those who allegedly were killed by Andranik in march 1918(BUT if Muslims were indiscriminately killed as part of the Russian offensive in January 1916, (read Holquist) and the bodies dumped in mass graves and the Turks only retook it in 1918, isn’t it more conceivable that these bodies would not be dug up again? In Erzurum I was told that the victims were unearthed only in the 1970-ies.
    -No doubt there exists a true version about this.
    Maxime -
    I believe you should say something

    • Ragnar,watch this clip provided by Perouz
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79mXzUrxVHs
      & pause exactly at 0.50 second & inspect the photograph properly & see this mass grave & ask yourselves the questions:Is this how Muslims bury their dead with the onlookers & diggers pausing for this photo shoot?Do you see an imam?Do you see anybody crying over the dead?Is there any shrouded corpse as how Muslims bury their dead?Don’t Muslims bury their dead individually?
      Also pause at 05.20 & 07.11 & inspect.However better for you is to watch the whole clip in its entirety.
      Contamination?Watch the whole video & you’ll get your question’s answer.
      Your quote:(BUT if Muslims were indiscriminately killed as part of the Russian offensive in January 1916, (read Holquist) and the bodies dumped in mass graves and the Turks only retook it in 1918, isn’t it more conceivable that these bodies would not be dug up again?
      No it is not conceivable as every relative wants to find his lost one & give him a proper burial and the Muslims have done that as they stayed behind in our homeland.
      Contamination?Give me a break 21st century fully fed living in comfort Ragnar.Put yourself in the shoes of the ones who have lost their loved ones & see what you’d do.
      Have you heard about the photo collection of John Elder?Go to this site
      http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_elder_view.html?photo=graveyard2.jpg&collection=elder&caption=Graveyard+at+Igdir
      & check & there you will see photos of Igdir where the deranged mercenary says it is Muslim mass grave.Can you see what the mercenary & his masters are trying to do?Something that is photographed & archived ages ago as Armenian mass graves claiming it as Muslim?
      See the 3rd grade academic/mercenary’s comment in this same article which I have copied it for you here below:
      Maxime Gauin
      February 21, 2013 Alaca (Erzurum), Yesilyayla (Erzurum), Timar (Erzurum), Oba (Igdir), Hak Mehmed (Igdir), Subatan (Kars), Zeve (Van)…

      Also see Armin T. Wegner’s photo collection with many Armenian mass graves & James Nazer’s book, “The First Genocide of the 20th Century: The story of the Armenian Massacres in text and pictures” .Go to this site:
      http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_Photos

  97. avatar ragnar naess // March 5, 2013 at 12:53 pm // Reply

    VTiger
    I see a number of bodies in a row in white garments. There are some people standig close to them to the left, and a number of people in the background. The other photos are pictures of terrible suffering, dead people and emaciated people. What did you expect me to conclude from this photo? You must explain more
    Maxime,
    maybe you are offended because they call you mercenary, and do not want to answer for this reason. You have been silent quite some time. I think you have to make a choice whether you believe dialogues like these have a value or not. For my own sake I believe they have.

    • {“I see a number of bodies in a row in white garments. “}

      No you don’t: I will try to be respectful in explaining why is it that you see ‘white garments’, and not what is actually there.

      Because of the age of the picture and the photographic technology at the time, the contrast between white and black and shades of grey is not as sharp as in today’s photography. If you look carefully, you should be able to see light colored and dark colored clothing.
      Plus uncovered heads of the dead: a No-No for Muslims (as I understand it).

      I will post a link to what Muslim dead prepared for burial look like (it is NOT graphic).
      http://www.rferl.org/content/syria-killings-houla-un-ban-ki-moon-annan/24594389.html

      If AW decides to flush it, just search for pics on Google of Muslims prepared for burial.
      According to my understanding of the ritual, they must be completely shrouded in clean cloth, preferably white.
      Since you know so much about Turks and profess love and infatuation for Turkey, I am surprised you do not know.

    • Ragnar,read again my comment & your questions are already explained there.

      I’m the one who calls him deranged,3rd class academic/mercenary as he is.

      Avery,
      The mass grave photo is from 1895 massacres of Armenians in Erzrum.
      The here below is the site:
      http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/hamidian.php
      The following is written under the photo:
      Erzerum, Armenian
      highlands in eastern Anatolia. Burial of the victims of the October 30, 1895 massacres of the Armenians during the region of Sultan Abdul Hamid II.
      These massacres from 1894 to 1896 took the lives of over 200.000 to 300.000 victims.
      (Informations and Dokumentationszentrum Armenien, Berlin)
      AGBU, April 1999, p. 24

  98. Here is more information about Palu. I was given this by the writer himself, so, it is primary documentation, written and published in the early 1930s. iI will be republished in English later this year.

    “Onnig asked for news of what came and went in the outside world. I told him that a caravan of women and children arrived in Palu almost every day. The sick and elderly were murdered on the Euphrates River bridge, their bodies thrown into the river. The rest of the caravan was exiled to Diyarbakir.
    “Which regions are the Armenians being brought here from?” asked Onnig.
    “Most of the caravans are coming from Kghi and Garin, but I have also seen small caravans coming from the villages of Palu.”
    “Are there any Armenians left in the city?”
    “There are no Armenian men left in the city. Countless corpses are spread out all over the city, as well as on the shores of the Euphrates River. All the Turks in the city, without exception, have taken one or two boys or women into their homes as servants. There are about 100 Armenian women and children staying in the churchyard. One or two of them die every day. Their bodies rot in the yard with a horrible stench. Himet tchavoush, Shavulat, and Onbashiand polis have all married Armenian girls they keep subject to themselves. As well as these three houses, there are another ten families.”

  99. avatar ragnar naess // March 5, 2013 at 3:27 pm // Reply

    VTiger
    Thank you for your information. I will go to the Elder Collection, and I agree with you that one must look out for frauds. The alleged mass graves of Muslims and the other mass graves found should be investigated by independent experts like Halacoglu and David Gaunt planned to do with the case of Xirabebaba village in Mardin, but the project was in all probability stopped by local jandarma and Turkish authorities.
    About the fear of contamination, see what Yervant Odian writes about people throwing sick relatives into the mass grave for fear of contamination of typhus. Possibly you are the one who is living comfortably in the 21 century and project your ideas of honour into the situation of people who were just desperate to survive and got demoralized to the extent that they committed acts completely contrary to accepted morality.

    • Ragnar,Halacoglu an independent expert?Please do not drink & comment.
      As for contamination look at the photos at the sites that I earlier provided.Put yourself in the shoes of the ones who have lost their loved ones & see what you’d do.

    • Ragnar,your part comment:
      “he alleged mass graves of Muslims and the other mass graves found should be investigated by independent experts like Halacoglu and David Gaunt planned to do with the case of Xirabebaba village in Mardin, but the project was in all probability stopped by local jandarma and Turkish authorities.”
      “independent experts like Halacoglu”????
      The former head of Turkish Historical Society an infamous Genocide denialist an independent expert?
      Enough of your mockery.This is far too far insulting.

    • Ragnar,this is my 3rd reminder to you & you’ve gone silent.I’m still waiting for your clarification about your here below quote:
      “mass graves found should be investigated by independent experts like Halacoglu and David Gaunt”
      I repeat my question for the 3rd time:
      “independent experts like Halacoglu”????
      The former head of Turkish Historical Society an infamous Genocide denialist an independent expert?
      Can there be independent Armenian experts?
      I’m waiting for your clarification & if I do not get it I will throw this comment around you.

    • Regarding Armenian mass grave of Xibalba(notXirabebaba) read the here below:
      Mass Burial of Possible Armenian Genocide Victims Discovered in Turkey
      November 4, 2006 – 16:18 AMT
      PanARMENIAN.Net – Turkish Gendarmerie has instructed local villagers of a southeastern region to keep silence about a mass grave, discovered on October 17, that might contain remains of Armenian Genocide victims. According to a Kurdish newspaper published in Turkish Ulkede Ozgur Gundem, villagers from Xirabebaba (Kuru) were digging a grave for one of their relatives when they came across to a cave full of skulls and bones of reportedly 40 people. The Xirabebaba residents assumed they had uncovered a mass grave of 300 Armenian villagers massacred during the Genocide of 1915. They informed Akarsu Gendarmerie headquarters, the local military unit, about the discovered remains. Turkish army officers, according to the Kurdish newspaper, instructed the villagers to block the cave entrance and make no mention of the remains buried in it. The officers said an investigation would take place. The newspaper reported on the developments and the Turkish military’s attempt to hide the news. Journalists, who had arrived to obtain more information, were denied access to the cave.
      As the mass burial made news, local Gendarmerie made another visit to the villagers. The latter were pressed to report the name of the person who leaked the mass burial discovery to the press. The villagers were warned not to show anyone directions to the cave. The victims of the mass grave, according to Sodertorn University History Professor David Gaunt, are most likely the 150 Armenian and 120 Assyrian males from the nearby town of Dara (now Oguz) killed on June 14, 1915, reports Asbarez.
      http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/world/news/19883

      Can you see what they do to our mass graves?
      Now compare the 3rd class supposed academic/mercenary’s comment of “there no Armenian mass graves”.Shame on you!

  100. I am going to a print exhibition opening this weekend. The works of two professors in printmaking will be on display. Printmakers have a deep interest in the paper they work on. If they don’t make it themselves, they want to know the fibre, ph, sizing used, country of origin etc. And always, they are interested in the permanence of the dyes or inks used on them.

    I am going to tell them all about “kurans” being found scattered around skeletons as reported on this site. I think these professors might want to let their print making students know about the comments made about Muslim buried books, or the claimed survival of paper that is exposed to the elements in the presence of rotting flesh. A student may decide to write on this nonsense in a final essay as powerful evidence of how the inherent properties of paper can even expose the deceit of genocide denying countries. I will refer them to this site for additional information. This is an A+ essay topic. Of course, nothing will ever beat the tape measurement science.

  101. avatar ragnat naess // March 5, 2013 at 5:17 pm // Reply

    Dear Perouz,
    yes, you are telling about the terrible fate of your people in 1915. I have no reason to doubt it, and if you ask me to emphatihize, I feel your pain, and remind you that we came to this discussion by way of my story about how strongly I reacted to the way Turks in Erzurum handled the theme “Turkish-Armenian relations”. Maxime was together with me at the time. It was a shame and I reacted very negatively. I also did not remain silent on the issue. But I am not sure whether you are now continuing our earlier theme or doing something else. Our earlier theme was whether Armenians at the time also killed Turkish civilians or not. I believe you said no to this. Another theme was whether I trust the information given by Turks about concrete mass graves. I said I do not automatically trust it, but do not exclude that such mass graves exist. With all due respect I believe we speak about different themes. I am confused about how the Elder photos fit into our discussion. Do you intend to say that when you tell about the terrible plight of your people, this in a way is an argument that Armenians did not kill Turkish civilians, or that the plight of your people demonstrates that alleged Turkish mass graves are fakes? Regarding specific photos, I have no reason to disbelieve you because obviously you know much more than me on this score. But again – with all due respect – are not documentation of specific assertions and appeals for empathy two different realms of thought?
    Maxime, I will write you personally about your remaining silent in this discussion. It is hardly becoming of you and I will remember it in further discussions, privately or publicly.

    • avatar Boyajian // March 5, 2013 at 8:44 pm //

      Ever the enigma, Ragnar, I believe much of your message above was meant for VTiger. Are you getting enough sleep?

      It is certain that Armenians killed Muslims during the awful Ottoman genocidal campaign of World War I. No one is surprised to learn that Armenians took up arms against their oppressors. But as tragic as it is that innocent people were killed on both sides, there is no doubt that the scope of destruction wrought against the Armenians by official Ottoman policy far outweighs the scope of Armenian aggression against Turks or Kurds.

      The fact is that Turkey has denied and distorted so much of the history of this time period and has gone to extreme and unscrupulous lengths to avoid facing responsibility for its destruction of the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire. The idea that a mass grave might be intentionally misattributed to the wrong party doesn’t seem too far-fetched–especially if it helps deflect responsibility away from Turks and denigrates Armenians instead. It would be good to know the truth, but even if mass graves of Muslims exist, it doesn’t diminish Turkey’s responsibility for annihilating the Ottoman Armenians. These alleged mass graves of Muslims, if true, indicate tragic events AND also red herrings.

  102. A footnote on “Maxime” for some of our more dedicated, and now perplexed, contributors: Gauin is a cherry picker and subject changer. When challenged for proof of his statements, he’d rather be somewhere else. You only hear from him when he has another barb to throw or half-truth to twist into unsubstantiated and conveniently unverifiable “fact”–the target always being, directly or indirectly, the “genocide label”. The latter goal is shared by both members of the team. The difference between them is simply this: one offers a flood of crocodile tears and the other doesn’t. Why give them the time of day?

  103. avatar ragnar naess // March 6, 2013 at 3:05 am // Reply

    OK Avery, (I answer a post which I found in my inbox but which has not yet appeared here) I see it now. As I understand it this picture is presented by a Turkish agency allegedly showing Turks killed by Armenians. Your point is that the uncovered heads document that these are not Muslims, but non-Muslims, probably Armenians. I Take it that at the exhibition the Turkish original in which this picture is presented will be shown and the fake explained.

    Perouz, (I write this after a post I wrote to you yesterday but which has not appeared here on the pages) yes, I believe you have a point when you mention that Maxime, as a specialist and an employee of an agency in Turkey, holds that you can identify whether skeletons belonged to Armenians or Turks by looking for small Korans.I find it hardly credible….

    Regarding the story from Palu, this is similar to a great number of descriptions made by Armenians who claim to be eyewitnesses or have heard the stories of eyewitnesses. The main collection of such descriptions are found in Raymond Kevorkian’s 1000 page volume of 2006. You probably know this, I only say it so that you should know that I have read the greater part of this.

    I relate to these things mainly as one asking for documentation. This is because I believe there is an intrinsic connection between scholarly method and humanistic values, for instance values of human rights and democracy. I empathise, but I believe demands for empathy is only a part of the task.

    I made a point out of this at the conference in Erzurum, telling the audience that only in the short version of Kevorkian’s work , made by George Semelin, there are some 200 descriptions of massacres, many of them provided with date and place and names of alleged perpetrators. I told the audience that the challenge for those who disagree is to compare these informations from Armenians with ottoman sources. The burden of proof that trhere were few massacres is on them. So I expect there will be a specimen of the book or text of this author who wrote in in 1930, along with an analysis of the trustworthyness of him or her as a witness. A text which plays the role of the “Devil’s Advocate”, right?

  104. avatar ragnar naess // March 6, 2013 at 7:37 am // Reply

    boyajian
    no, it was meant for Perouz, see her two posts on the exhibition and her reference to the events at Palu. But of course it also adresses the points made by VTiger. I am not sure what you mean by “outweigh..”. In cases of the killing of civilians it is a crime according to the laws of war, both today and 100 years ago.

    • avatar Boyajian // March 6, 2013 at 11:30 am //

      Ragnar, what I mean is that stories of Armenian aggression against Turks and Kurds are exaggerated for the purpose of deflecting Turkish responsibility and denigrating ‘evil Armenians’ as the ‘instigators’ of their own destruction.

      I don’t deny that Armenians killed Turks or Kurds, or that crimes were committed on both sides, but I hold suspect the stories of mass graves of Muslims, even those found with skeletons with ‘large Turkish skulls’ and still grasping their Korans.

  105. Your comment: “I told the audience that the challenge for those who disagree is to compare these informations from Armenians with ottoman sources. The burden of proof that trhere were few massacres is on them. So I expect there will be a specimen of the book or text of this author who wrote in in 1930, along with an analysis of the trustworthyness of him or her as a witness.”

    No, naess, there will not be “a specimen.” There will be a large book. It is a 7 year daily diary, including weather, beginning in 1915. It is not a later recollection. It is witnessed daily events as they unfolded in front of him. It was first published in 1930, not first written then. And yes, there is documentation in international archives that he was actually in those places for 7 years. And no, he was not an old man with faltering memory. Go to the sites where he writes that there are fields of butchered Armenian bodies of unarmed men, women and children. Please refrain from scattering “kurans among the skeletons.” And leave your tape measure at home. We know that these are our dead. We know what was done to them. We know the intent of the barbarians. It is, as Harut has once again asserted in this article, called Genocide, the Armenian Genocide.

    Your comment: “Regarding the story from Palu, this is similar to a great number of descriptions made by Armenians who claim to be eyewitnesses or have heard the stories of eyewitnesses.”
    Would it ever occur to you that the reason there are “a great number of similar descriptions made by Armenians” is that these numerous, independent reports all have common elements, or, as you said, similarity, thereby establishing the likelihood of a high degree of accuracy and veracity? I have Kevorkian’s excellent work in front of me. I suggest you not only read it again, but buy an extra couple of copies; donate one to your public library, and one to a university library.

    Your comment: “Our earlier theme was whether Armenians at the time also killed Turkish civilians or not. I believe you said no to this.”
    I have never made any comment on the subject. Please refrain from your propensity for fabrication.

    Don’t concern yourself with whether I am “now continuing our earlier theme or doing something else,” as you write. To the best of my knowledge, neither the AW, or Harut, or any other poster, has expressed any concern about what, or when, or the order, in which I write. You are under no obligation to either read or comment on anything I choose to post, whether or not the order is clear to you.

    Your comment: “…if you ask me to emphatihize, I feel your pain…”
    It would not occur to me to ask you to empathize let alone “emphatihize.”

    I find it deeply offensive that you, a person who denies the Armenian Genocide, claims to feel my pain. Almost all of my family was brutally butchered by savage barbarians. Innocent children in my family had the sword taken to their small necks. My paternal grandmother was stoned to death. My maternal grandmother was savagely raped. My father witnessed a child being cut out of a living womb and impaled on a sword. Thirty-two women and children, seven of the eight men in my father’s family, and all the men in my mother’s family were butchered.

    The two survivors in my father’s family did not grow old within the care and comfort of their families, their familiar ancient culture, their language, the church they helped to build and worshipped in. They never again planted spring flowers in the cemetery their ancestors were buried in. They did not watch their children grow and play in the familiar fields of their home, or again hear the sound of their laughter echoing across the mountains. The pleasure of camaraderie and easy banter in their own language with long time friends was forever lost to them. They did not harvest the crops they had already planted, or again see their apple trees in bloom. Their sheep and oxen were left in fields they never saw again. My mother wept for her pony left tethered in the back garden, worried that it too was butchered. They never again saw the sun rise on a familiar mountain landscape, never again gathered around the warmth of the tonir for a meal together. Laundry was left drying, the kettle was boiling on the tonir, the breakfast lavash was stacked and ready when the barbarians came that day in May, 1915.

    When the silence of night fell in the new land, and others slept, they heard again the terrified screams of the children, the pleas for mercy which never came. They yearned again for the soft arms and flashing dark eyes and happy sing-song voices of home. They grieved every single day of their remaining lives for their murdered family and friends, their lost home, their lost way of life.

    And you, a denier of the Armenian Genocide, claims to feel my pain? Hold your head under cold running water until you come to your senses.

  106. avatar ragnar naess // March 6, 2013 at 4:33 pm // Reply

    Well, I think both Turks and Armenians have problems in relating objectively to this history. Regarding the alleged mass graves of Muslims, I got sceptical listening to the arguments forwarded by VTiger, Avery and the others. Thank you! I learn from everybody. About my being enigmatic I dont know what to say. I am the kind of person who agree in some but not in all. I guess I am very average in this. I dont join any party uncriticaly. But I insist on dialogue with people whose fate I lecture on and write about. Most do not care about this, but I think it is necessary. So I am still here

    • I think you misinterpret definition of genocide! You are leveling very well planned governmental mass killing program of Armenians with episodic killings of Turks. Where is your logic?
      1. Armenian Genocide is proved by many scholars (not only Armenians) all over the world MANY years ago, based of facts from archives from USA, Sweden, Germany, France, Russia, Armenia etc.
      2. Whatever you are telling about mass killings of Turks is not proved, it is relatively new, and taking into account available technology that could be used both in falsifications as well as in research, can not be taken into account on the same level with ,again, ALREADY PROVED Armenian genocide

      Again please be logical, not only philosophical

    • “I think both Turks and Armenians have problems in relating objectively to this history.” Thank heavens that the good Lord sent a certain Norwegian to save us from ourselves.

    • avatar Boyajian // March 6, 2013 at 10:48 pm //

      Perhaps objectivity is an unrealistic expectation when the impact of the genocide is still ongoing. Armenians don’t view these events as merely historical, but as unpunished crimes that continue to threaten our existence and dignity in the present.

      You need to know this if you wish to have empathy with the Armenians.

  107. “both Turks and Armenians have problems in relating objectively to this history”
    Please define the problems of Armenians in objectively relating to history?

  108. avatar ragnar naess // March 7, 2013 at 1:50 am // Reply

    Perouz,
    I never claimed to feel your pain. I empathize to the extent this is possible. When the plane went down to land in Erzurum I looked at the Erzurum plain and recalled Kaiser’s article “A scene from the inferno”, but at the conference I met people who either were indifferent or wholly concerned with their own collective memories of disasters, fake or real. So I was indignant.

    But I also said more or less the following: Both Armenians and Turks build their cases, their true or less true founding myths, on assertions that are the most difficult to prove, whereas what everybody must agree on is ignored and would provide a much better starting point for the Turks to admit the vastrness of the crime committed.

    Again the sequence of the posts is bewildering because it looks as if my post of myself as an “enigma” comes after your long post.

    I would like to say something about your post, but please tell me if you want me to stop answering you.

    There is a strange contrast in you message between the almost unbearable description of the crimes and the catastrophy that befell your family and on the other side the recourse to the image of the big book that will prove everything. I want to remind you that to the extent that you relive the catastrophy and the crime you are in one mental landscape – I believe Peroomian writes about this in her work on Armenian literature on the genocide – but as far as you envisage the “book that proves it” you are in a totally different conceptual landscape: the landscape of the need for impartial and objective documentation, judgement of the trustworthyness of witnesses, and the interpretaiton of facts according to alternative hypotheses. You end by saying “And you, a denier of the Armenian Genocide, claims to feel my pain? Hold your head under cold running water until you come to your senses”. No, I dont claim it, buit i claim to know something about “books that prove”, and I might return the advice to keep one’s head under water to you. Probably we both need it.

  109. naess; please read my post again. The words “the book that proves it,” are yours, not mine. I very seldom use the word “proof” in any writing – you have used it, or its derivative, several times in just this one posting. Revisionism is a common tactic of deniers. They distance themselves from their ill-advised comments by ascribing them to others.

    You will also notice that, although you deny it, you did indeed write the exact words “I feel your pain.” This is a highly inappropriate and offensive comment. Denial of genocide is an act of perpetuation. No genocide denier feels my pain, or that of any other survivor, or descendant. In making such an inappropriate comment, you trivialize the ongoing pain of genocide. There is now ample scholarly research supporting the claim that the trauma of genocide is perpetuated down through many generations.

    I also tell you, again, that I have no concern about your difficulty with the sequence of my posts. Simply don’t read them. I will write them as I choose, and AW will print them, or not, as they please.

  110. Ragnar – the problem is not that Armenians do not understand the essence of the word genocide…quite the opposite. They understand it full well. To hint that they don’t is very similar to suggesting that the Irish don’t really understand the word ‘famine’ or that South Africans don’t really understand the nuances of ‘colonialism’. Why is it that the victims are seemingly the last to be consulted, but most often in this specific case? Why are Armenian thoughts, studies, research, oral histories, political histories, etc. all pushed aside in an effort to make the (false) Turkish/denialist argument appear to be of equal standing? It makes no sense, except that it is yet another case of a deep rooted, anti-Armenianism. Since when are Germans consulted on the finer nuances and personal tragedies of the holocaust? The fact is, they aren’t and they should not be in the Armenian case either.

    On top of this, Armenians are subjected, almost on a daily basis these days, of seeing the word genocide tossed around like a ball…and there are plenty of clueless characters who are very willing to catch and play ball. Frankly, this is infuriating to Armenians, particularly when they see the word used so casually and inaccurately, not just by lay individuals, but by government officials and diplomats…people who should know better. A massacre of 20 people, or 200 people is not a genocide….plain and simple. It is horrific, tragic and most likely criminal, but it categorically is not genocide. The obliteration of an entire village and its inhabitants, say a Kurdish village in Anatolia or a Palestinian village in Israel, is not genocide….horrific as it might be. It is a case of ethnic cleansing, for sure, but not genocide. This upsets and offends Armenians on both ends of the spectrum, because we feel deep sympathies for those who are subjected to any such treatment, but we feel sorry for ourselves for seeing our own tragedy treated so shabbily, with conscious maliciousness by those who have a avery clear agenda that does not include Armenians, their thoughts or their feelings.

    • avatar Boyajian // March 7, 2013 at 1:43 pm //

      Bravo Karekin. Very well said. Genocide and massacre are not interchangeable terms or interchangeable tragedies. They are not the same thing. Genocide is the extreme of man’s inhumanity to man, a category unto itself, and a crime that demands a just response; not just for the victims, but for the benefit of humanity as a whole. The idea that a people could be virtually wiped from their homeland and that the guilty not be made to pay for this crime for almost 100 years, should make every human being shudder. Further, in the case of the Turks, the guilty nation is permitted to obfuscate the facts and blame the victims, and garner support of would-be scholars who can’t discern fact from denialist fiction.

      “On top of this, Armenians are subjected, almost on a daily basis these days, of seeing the word genocide tossed around like a ball…and there are plenty of clueless characters who are very willing to catch and play ball. ”

      Seen almost daily on these very pages…

  111. Ragnar you write: ” About my being enigmatic I dont know what to say. I am the kind of person who agree in some but not in all. I guess I am very average in this. I dont join any party uncriticaly. But I insist on dialogue with people whose fate I lecture on and write about. Most do not care about this, but I think it is necessary. So I am still here”

    Your critical eye and desire for dialogue are not what make you enigmatic. Rather, the fact that you are seemingly so well read on the subject of this crime, but so easily fall into the role of the Apologist for Turkey, is quite puzzling. Perhaps infuriating is a better word.

  112. A word to the wise and the wiseacres: William A. Schabas, who is the most cautious and conservative of genocide scholars in applying the word genocide, who rules out a number of atrocities that others readily call genocide, including Cambodia, says on page 235 of his masterwork, “Genocide In International Law”, that the three ‘classic’ cases of genocide were those of the Armenians, the Jews, the Tutsis. Trying to remove the Armenian Genocide from that list makes a mockery of the whole concept of genocide, which is precisely the goal of Halacoglu and “The Turkish Historical Society” and the mediocre western “scholars” who echo their line.

    • very interesting about Cambodia:

      I always thought illogical that Cambodia was called a ‘genocide’.
      How is it possible for a given ethnos to commit genocide against itself ?

      Never made sense to me.

  113. avatar ragnar naess // March 7, 2013 at 2:55 pm // Reply

    George,
    You write: I think you misinterpret definition of genocide! You are leveling very well planned governmental mass killing program of Armenians with episodic killings of Turks. Where is your logic? Comment: I dont level if I understand you correctly. For instance I wrote on February 19: I believe all parties appeared both in the role of victim and perpetrators in this terrible catastrophy, but of course these killings, if they really took place, came after the considerably bigger mass killings of Armenians in 1915-16.unquote. In this sense I do not level. Possibly you are right, but you would have to be more specific in your criticism for me to understand it. — you write: Armenian Genocide is proved by many scholars. Comment: many scholars disagree. Anyhow I never said “No genocide was committed against Armenians”. You write: Whatever you are telling about mass killings of Turks….”. Comment: I simply related scholarly sources, like Walker and Holquist and contemporary sources like Nogales.. If you look back to my posts you will see that I even started to doubt what I earlier believed because of what VTiger and Avery said. Look to my earlier posts! And you try to teach me to be logical….
    Boyajian:
    You write: Perhaps objectivity is an unrealistic expectation when the impact of the genocide is still ongoing. Comment: Yes and no. Yes, as Peroomian in her article “Problematic aspects of reading Genocide literature” shows how Armenian writers of the 20-ies and 30-ies search for a way to describe the undescribable, and very often themselves conceded that is was impossible, even that atempting to write “objectively” was a kind of sacrilege. This is very understandable and of course I do not take this as any deficiency in this Armenian literature. But then they still attempted to do it, and there are people who kept diaries, like Perouz tells us. And Yervant Odian in his “Accursed Years” succeeds to my mind in providing a graphic representation of a mad and horrible situation. So I think it still is possible. But the important thing in our debate is that Armenians often have recourse to research, like George here. And Perouz, along with her horrifying descriptions of the scenes of the genocide, still mentions documentation in the form of a diary as part of the Armenian communication to us. So these participants position themselves in the research and “objective” tradition. They write what they saw, heard and experienced. What I have problems with is the recourse to expressions of outrage and trauma when assertions of fact and explanations are med with counterargument. You cant have your cake and eat it.
    George, you write:
    “both Turks and Armenians have problems in relating objectively to this history”
    Please define the problems of Armenians in objectively relating to history? Unquote. Comment: this is a very sweeping statement of mine, of course I do not mean all Armenians. It is also a very big theme. I will only give one example: Karekin who writes here, sometimes reminds other Armenians that the Ottoman period was not only bad for Armenians, but he quite often meet anger, opprobria and rejection even if what he says is obviously true. As Libaridian says the shadow of the Genocide is too encompassing, too much the gcontext and backround for interpretation of all prior events. And some Armenians here in AW see the Turks as genocidal and bad from the time they left Central Asia, which obviouisly is exaggerated. Well, these are some examples.
    Finally: The irony of this discussion is that it started when I expressed my outrage at how the University of Erzurum handled the theme of “Armeno-Turkish relations” and at the racist plaque at Cinis.

    • Ragnar Naess: “Armenian Genocide is proved by many scholars. Comment: many scholars disagree.” Many scholars disagree that Holocaust existed, as well as massacres in Srebrenitca were genocidal acts. So what? Should we discuss it? Many scholars doing research for money. You’ll pay for “research” – they will provide it with the report YOU REQUIRE.
      In fact you can take any well known subject, for instance III Law of Thermodynamics, and burn half a billion dollars in one year to prove it and come up with conclusion: more research has to be conducted!
      Ragnar what you are doing is just playing with words “i never said Armenian Genocide didn’t exist”, “more research has to be provided”, “I feel your pain”, “mass killings has to be proved… if ever took play” etc. As a scholar you should know that research process could be endless if you want it to be such, but the fact is staying a fact – millions of Armenians were exterminated and swiped off their motherland.
      Without playing with numbers you should admit extermination happened! If not there nothing to talk about with you.
      Than secondly if 2 million of ARMENIANS were killed, does it falls under category of genocide or not (for the reference specific group of people( hence geno) and was killed( cide)). Without being “politically correct” and playing a peace maker between turks and armenians – what is a definition of such an act?!
      Than after that we can categorize episodic killings of Turks by Armenians, if happened at all.

  114. avatar ragnar naess // March 7, 2013 at 3:00 pm // Reply

    Sorry, I got one sentence put in the wrong place. The sentence “They write what they saw, heard and experienced” of course refers to those Armenians who tried to be the objective chroniclers of the experiences. it does not refer to the participants at AW.

  115. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // March 7, 2013 at 3:28 pm // Reply

    This article should have special page in Armenian weekly …educated person Faiz el-Ghusain from Important Arab family …I read the Arabic version now is translated to many languages…Let who denies read …And pray and pledge for god to forgive him, if he believes in any god …other wise he is godless…!!!
    Please don’t remove my letter…

    Arab Eyewitness Fâ’iz el-Ghusein of the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1923.

    Descended from the powerful tribe of Sulut in the Hauran district of Syria, Fâ’iz el-Ghusein was a prominent Arab lawyer. He was the Governor of the Harpoot (Kharberd) Province for three and half years. In 1915, on the way to Erzerum, he was arrested by Turkish authorities without any cause, and spent one month in a Diyarbekir prison. As part of his probation, he stayed on in Diyarbekir for approximately 7 more months and was eyewitness to the atrocities committed by Turks against the exiled Armenians from Erzerum, Van, Bitlis, Kharberd and other towns. Later, Fâ’iz el-Ghusein presented his testimonies in a book entitled “Massacres in Armenia”, published first in 1916 in its original Arabic. Later due to popularity and demand, the book was translated to French and English, “Temoignage d’un Arabe musulman sur l’innocene et le massacres des Armeniens”, and “Martyred Armenia”, respectively.

    …”After great ordeals, during which I often saw death and slaughter, I reached Basra, and conceived the idea of publishing this book as a service to the cause of truth and of a people oppressed by the Turks, and also, as I have also stated in my conclusion, to defend the faith of Islam against the charge of fanaticism which will undoubtedly be brought against by Europeans, May God guide us in the right way”…

    … “In the evening we arrived at Kara Jevren and slept there till morning. At sunrise we went on towards Sivrek, and halfway down the road we saw a terrible sight. Corpses were lying in great numbers on both sides of the road; here we saw a woman outstretched on the ground, her body half veiled by her long hair; there, women lying on their faces, the dried blood blackening their delicate forms; I saw the corpses of men, parched to the semblance of charcoal. As we approached Sivrek, we were deluged by the number corpses, mostly children’s bodies.”…

    …”I observed that the crosses had been removed from the lofty steeples of the churches, which were now used as storehouses and markets for the keeping and sale of the effects of the dead”…

    …”At Moush, Armenians were killed in straw-barns, but even a greater number by shooting or stabbing with knives. The government hired butchers who received a Turkish pound each day as wages.”…

    …”the gendarmes had divided the Armenians into parties of ten, and had sent them up to the butchers one by one. The butcher told an Armenian man to stretch out his neck; he did so, and was slaughtered like a sheep. The doctor was amazed at their steadfastness in the presence of death, not saying a word, or showing any sign of fear.”…

    …”The gendarmes used to bind the women and children and throw them down from very lofty heights, so that they reached the ground shattered to pieces. This place was between Diarbekir and Mardin, and the bones of the slain are there in heaps to this day”…

    http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/eye_witnesses2.php

  116. avatar ragnar naess // March 7, 2013 at 4:16 pm // Reply

    Diran
    this is what Schabas wrote in 2009. Read his article “Crimes against Humanity as a paradigm for International Atrocity Crimes”. Middle East Critique, 20-3, Autumn 2011, p.255. I quote:
    Use of the label ‘genocide’ to describe the suffering visited upon the Armenians in 1915 remains a matter of controversy. unquote.
    He phrazes his conclusion of the article in the following way:
    “The modest suggestion in this article is that it
    may be easier to agree upon the term crimes against humanity than to admit to genocide,and that this may open a pathway to a shared narrative.” Unquote.
    He changed his mind after discussing the matter with Turkish historians, I believe. There is a photo of him with Kemal Cicek.
    Boyajian
    I am not acting as an apologist for Turkey, to my mind. But as you know, you regard something as true and proved which I judge to be open to reasonable doubt, that is the intent of the central ittihadists. But more research may find the truth about the intent. So I do not agree with Schabas. I am quite surprised about his new stand and the reason he gives.

  117. avatar ragnar naess // March 7, 2013 at 4:21 pm // Reply

    Diran
    Sorry, what I meant to say was that “your citation is what Schabas said in 2009″

  118. avatar ragnar naess // March 7, 2013 at 4:37 pm // Reply

    Karekin
    Well, I discuss with you Armenians and listen to Armenians for the exact reason you mention: the victims should be consulted. And I learn. But this is not the same as agreeing with Armenians – as descendants of victims of crimes – in all aspects. – Regarding the Genocide Convention and the criteria of the phrase “in whole or in part” and the literature on the “in part” clause, I believe you are right.The part has to be a “considerable part”. But read the verdict against Krstic regarding Srebrenica and you see that quite small percentages killed of a group may according to the ICTY qualify as genocide. They also adduce some other reasonings to meet the criteria for genocide in spite of 7.000 being a small fraction of the Bosnian Muslims.

  119. avatar ragnar naess // March 8, 2013 at 11:51 am // Reply

    Perouz, we have not spoken together before, so some initial accomodation is needed. If you say that you do not care about what I feel about our communucation situation here, maybe we should not communicate. Needless to say: I never feel your pain realistically speaking, only methaphorically. It means to empathise. If you talk about “a book that proves…” or “ample scholarly works support…”, these kind of expressions boil down to the whether there is general scholarly support for a thesis. About the general scholarly support for the genocide thesis regarding the mass killings of Armenians and uprooting them and destroying their cultural monuments, look at the Schabas citation I provided.

  120. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // March 8, 2013 at 3:32 pm // Reply

    Please learn new things from Arabic news papers…From recent news papers about Ottoman-Turks…Which i never new before now they are releasing every thing…despite Turkish embassies send them warnings not to write…!!!

    The famous writer Ahmad Al Saraf wrote in Al Qabas Kuwaiti News paper …Bosnian were all Christian the Turks forced them to change their religion…under scimitars the article was published just few days ago …
    You can open the Al Qabas and read…See how many writers are against the Turks
    They have never forgotten their “Kazooks”…Even they use to rape Arabian girls as a revenge and leave them pregnant…when they entered Arabia…
    After Turks left in 1918…Their parents accepted their children because they said, it was not their mistake…!!!

    • You just know realized Turks made Bosnians Muslims? And clearly after the big bad Turk left Arabia there has been nothinbut peace, love, coexistence, and tolerance., right? It’s not like they’ve been killing each other or subjugating their own people to living under monarchies much more inhumane than the Ottoman Empire.

    • Such ignorance! Bosnians are Slavs. They were a Christian sect that was severely discriminated by the Catholic Church. Many such groups in Europe have gone extinct by the way, victims of real genocides. When Ottomans conquered that part of Europe, these people converted en mass and seeked protection from Sultan. There was the added benefit of no taxes! Ottomans are not known to force conversion contrary to common myth. You would all be praying towards Mecca five times a day otherwise.

  121. Mr. Naess: In the article you refer to, there is no sign that William Schabas has retracted his view that the genocide of the Armenians was one of the 3 ‘classic’ genocides of the 20th century. It is furthermore preposterous and frivolous to believe that he would have done so within a mere 4 years of writing his magnum opus on genocide, which is now an international textbook on the subject. And to say that he had changed his view on such a fundamental point of scholarship “after discussing the matter with Turkish historians” and having his picture taken with Cicek is profoundly demeaning to him as well as unduly exaggerating the persuasive powers of certain Turkish representatives.

    His purpose, in this narrow academic forum, was diplomatically to suggest a basis for dialogue between Armenians and Turks, given a situation in which Turkey finds it hard to “admit to genocide”. The term “admit to” conveys the presumption of Turkey’s responsibility for the genocide and is totally consistent with what he says on page 235 of “Genocide In International Law”.

  122. avatar ragnar naess // March 8, 2013 at 5:17 pm // Reply

    Diran,
    I agree that Schabas doesnt retract what he earlier has said about the Armenian genocide. What he does is much more ambiguous. He suggests to subordinate the truth about what happened to a strategy of reconciliation based on what is harder to admit versus what is not so hard to admit. What kind if morality is this?
    I see you as confused, and clinging to an old truth in a landscape of debate which by now is obviously undergoing an important change. Important players are deciding to subrodinate the quest for truth to a quest for compromise. Note that I disagree with him. But I believe you should make a crearer choice between your commitment to Schabas and your commitment to a truth you believe in.

  123. Correction: In my previous post (Mar. 8th), instead of saying “a mere 4 years since writing his magnum opus” I should have said “within a mere 4 years of publication of the 2nd edition of his magnum opus on genocide”.

    • Diran, unpleasant as it may be to say so, I think Ragnar Naess is correct in his reading of Schabas’ article: “subordinating the quest for truth to a quest for compromise.” Schabas is playing some sort of “have it both ways” game.

  124. Ragnar – you make an issue of Armenians ‘adopting’ the word genocide in the 1940s, but let’s face it, this is, once again, a false measure. It is not unlike saying that because Galileo or Sir Issac Newton ‘discovered’ gravity in the 16th/17th C., it did not exist prior to that time. Of course it did and in a similar way, genocide existed before Lemkin, he just applied a word and a measurement for describing it succinctly. That’s all. And, most amazingly, just like gravity, it applies retroactively, because if the theory is correct now and into the future, it also must apply to the past. That’s a scientific application, if you want one. So, please spare us the nonsense and endless mumbo jumbo in an effort to defend criminal behavior by the CUP, who by the way, only sought to emulate the essence of the Spanish inquisition, because imitation of success is the sincerest form of flattery.

    • Yes, speaking of the Spanish Inquisition, when will the Spanish and Church be asked to come clean and pay for their sins in past centuries? What about how they destroyed magnificent civilizations in Americas? Where are the courts? Then I want to bring up the crimes of Romans.

    • You Muslim Turks start first.

      Christianity is 600 years older that Islam.
      Christians did not invade the birthplace of Islam in Arabia and attempt to forcibly convert the locals to Christianity.

      Muslims left their point of origin and invaded non-Christian and Christian countries, forcibly converting on the way.

  125. Avery, is this Genocide denier on the Turk payroll? Do I have him confused with another denier? I thought he said he taught. Where does he get the time to follow AW posts in such depth? Doesn’t he have mid-terms to mark? Isn’t he preparing finals? Where does he get the time for so much “empathy.”

    This example of how the pain of Holocaust is felt by some deniers was in the March 6 Washington Times. I’m not clear if they are all Turks.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/6/muslim-turkish-teens-jews-hitler-should-have-kille/

  126. Sylva; I thank you very much for alerting us to Martyred Armenia.. I have just requested it from my university library and am looking forward to receiving it shortly. I am very grateful to you for bringing this book to my attention.

    The link you have sent to the Genocide Museum has regularly changing pages and is so informative and valuable that I have it at the top of my favorites bar. It is worth a trip to Armenia just to spend the day at this museum, and then, knowing that you still did not see everything, to go back again. Thanks for posting this valuable information.

  127. avatar ragnar naess // March 9, 2013 at 11:28 am // Reply

    Karekin
    I am not sure we disagree so much regarding what you write about in your last mail. you write: Ragnar – you make an issue of Armenians ‘adopting’ the word genocide in the 1940s, but let’s face it, this is, once again, a false measure. It is not unlike saying that because Galileo or Sir Issac Newton ‘discovered’ gravity in the 16th/17th C., it did not exist prior to that time.unquote—comment: I believe these are two different issues. Of course you may use a new name, coined by Lemkin in 1943, to describe a kind of happening we have seen since time immemorial: not only massacring many people belonging to a given ethnicity, but massacring with the intent of destroying the group as such. One might also give a new name to the law of gravity and still say that it denotes the same phenomenon as earlier. No contradiction here. So “to adopt the name” does not presuppose anything about the question of whether the phenomenon existed earlier or not, these are different questions.—- You write: Of course it did and in a similar way, genocide existed before Lemkin, he just applied a word and a measurement for describing it succinctly. comment: I agree and I did not mean anything more than that the Armenians adopted the word coined by lemkin. Of course I agree that the phenomenon existed earlier. But retroactivity in the juridical sense of a law being used to PUNISH an offence committed before the passing of the law is another matter. Some jurists say the Genocide Convention can be used in this way, some that it cannot. And the question of the intentions of the CUP is a third theme, separate, to my mind.

  128. avatar ragnar naess // March 9, 2013 at 11:31 am // Reply

    perouz,
    I teach only once a year. And it does not take me so much time to write here in AW.

  129. Mr. Naess: As you correctly observe, Schabas has not retracted what he says in his book about the genocide of the Armenians. It remains one of the three classic cases of genocide in the 20th century. He could not retract that without rewriting his whole book.

    His suggestion in Middle East Critique is that in order to pursue the issues between Turkey and Armenians as a legal matter it might be more fruitful to establish a narrative based on crimes against humanity. Schabas’s morality has nothing to do with it. To suggest so is, at best, an unwarranted provocation.

    Ultimately, Armenians themselves must decide how to proceed, not social scientists. The fact that you have trained an optical telescope on an article in an obscure theoretical journal to make your point only shows how desperate you and your allies are to overthrow the scholarly consensus on the genocide of the Armenians, a prime example of which is expressed on page 235 of Schabas’s book.

    Furthermore, you have the nerve to call me confused when it is you who has produced a fog of indecisive,vacillating verbiage sufficient to bury an entire continent and because you know I will reject your thesis of “new players who subordinate the truth”. Among these “new players”, you try to enlist William A. Schabas to join ranks with yourself, Cicek, Halacoglu, Gauin and other skillful and well-intentioned subordinators of truth. But at least you agree now that there is a truth to be subordinated, the genocide of the Armenians, and I consider that a remarkable step forward on your part.

  130. Perouz:

    Very interesting link: let us see what the twin denialist Turcophiles say about that. And it is not a fluke: there are very strong anti-Jewish undercurrents in Turkey.

    Read this:
    [Mein Kampf sales soar in Turkey]
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/mar/29/turkey.books
    {Mein Kampf, the book Hitler wrote in prison before he rose to power in 1933, has become a bestseller in Turkey, provoking consternation. The dreams of creating a master race are being snapped up by young Turks.}
    and this:
    [Enjoy your New Young Turk]
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=enjoy-your-new-young-turk-2011-07-26
    { Unsurprisingly, 82 percent have a negative opinion of Christians while only 4 percent have a favorable opinion of Jews.}

    Regarding Mr Naess being on Turk payroll: some of my compatriots think he is, but I highly doubt it. (although quite a few denialist Profs and researchers are in fact on Turkish payroll).

    I think it is a lot simpler than that, explained below.

    A while ago, one of us doing literary battle with him on the pages of AW, gave him the dis-honorary title ‘Prof’, because of his condescending attitude toward the “inbreeding” Armenian posters, and his endless lecturing to us gyavur children. From my recollection of his CV, he has never taught at an educational institution. (he used to post his CV online somewhere).

    He has a Mag.Art degree. If I remember correctly, in Philosophy.
    Mag.Art degree is considered equivalent to our Ph.D.
    [In Denmark and Norway, the Magister's degree was an advanced research degree, corresponding to the PhD in the Anglo-Saxon system and often translated as a PhD in an English language context. The Magister's degree became increasingly rare from the 1970s, and as a result of Denmark and Norway implementing the Bologna Process, it has now been completely abolished and replaced by PhD degrees.] (from Wiki)

    He speaks several languages, including Turkish.
    So what motivates him to spend long hours writing posts @AW ? No idea, but can guess.
    He is on record professing love and infatuation for Turkey: his words ‘love’ and ‘infatuation’. Let that sink in for a while.
    He is something like 70 years old: lots of time; not much else to do.
    What motivates him is probably what motivates us: in his mind, he is presumably ‘protecting’ his beloved Turkey from us, Armenians.
    All the bunk about ‘dialogue’, ‘discussion’, ‘debate’ is nothing more than Lutefisk (a malodorous Nordic fish dish). Emphasis on malodorous.

    One of our compatriots, Mr. Palandjian, who I believe is around 80, is a frequent posters @AW and also writes at many other places. He has the time and motivation. I doubt anyone is paying him to do it.
    I am not retired, have a lot of others things to do, but try to find the time to engage the Anti-Armenian denialist disinformation info-warriors. Same as our other compatriots. Least we can do.

    If one is motivated, one can usually find the time.

    • Avery,similar to you I’m not retired & always find the time to read,research & engage the anti-Armenian denialist disinformation.
      Now Ragnar has gone silent about the former head of Turkish Historical Society the infamous Genocide denialist Halacoglu being an independent expert for investigating Armenian mass graves.I’ve sent him 3 reminders.Probably he’s in the process of thinking of a way out.Let’s see what he’ll come out with.If he wants us to consider him as a ‘neutral’ Norwegian commentator then he has to clarify his comment of “mass graves found should be investigated by independent experts like Halacoglu and David Gaunt”.
      If & only if my fate was different & I did not have the burden of claiming justice for Genocide,I would have engaged my time & worked for charities of the world & specially the charities for children.Instead of ‘protecting’ his beloved Turkey he could satisfy his conscience by working for other much better plausible causes.

    • @Avery In a way I get the impression that you try to protect Naess and the people behind him. Why don´t you ask for his Armenian contacts? Do you fear that important ARF members are in close contact with him? He is not alone.

    • Dikran:

      your irrational post deserves no further comment from me.
      (yeah, sure, I am protecting Ragnar Naess)

  131. Silva;
    My library has just sent me this site. Martyred Armenia is available free to everyone. Thank you so much for alerting us to it.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19986/19986-h/19986-h.htm

  132. [Armenia Police give flowers to female drivers on women’s day]
    http://news.am/eng/news/143605.html

    [Women should be beaten slightly]
    http://news.am/eng/news/143709.html
    {Mehmet Demirer, the head of the Kirikkale Provincial Office of Turkey’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP)}
    {“You have received women as a gift from God. You have rights toward women, and they, toward you. If they do something without your permission, you may scare them by beating them lightly,” Demirer wrote.}

    In the year of our Lord 2013.

    Why would’t everyone be infatuated with Turkey ? Beats me.

  133. Avery; thanks for the background info on the denialist. For an Armenian to spend a great deal of time on behalf of the Cause is completely understandable and laudable. We need more people to be willing to help keep the Armenian Genocide in constant discussion. We do it for our butchered families. We want the criminals brought to justice and held accountable. But for a Danish denialist to spend so much time in support of Turks indeed smells very “fishy.”

    It would be interesting to know how and why he came about this “love and infatuation.” I wonder if it started in the same way as the Holocaust denying boys in the link I sent who are so filled with hatred toward Jews. What does he love about Turkey? Does he love knowing that hundreds are imprisoned without even being charged with anything? Does he love it that pilgrims who go to their villages simply to mourn are followed mile after mile by Turk police? Does he love the open oppression of minorities? Is he infatuated with article 301? Or maybe his heart beats faster with love and infatuation when he recalls that Turkish scholars were not permitted to hold a conference discussing the big G word – Genocide. Is he overcome with love and joy when he sees Armenian monastery ruins or the deplorable condition of the Sophia Hagyia with its blackened walls and broken columns lying in the courtyard? I wonder if it’s a woman who has dumped him that has led to this love and infatuation with Turkey. But then, it could simply be arrogance. He thinks his judgment is superior to that of the International Association of Genocide Scholars or the more than 20 countries that acknowledge the Genocide of Armenians.

  134. Ragner all this just to avoid the just compensation for the Armenians of the lands and the wealth stolen by Turks that was used to create modern day Turkey.

    The whole purpose of the genocide was theft.

    Tell us, what history do the 1/2 million Pontiff Greeks and the nearly 1 million Assyrians needs to face? Did they kill Turks too? Where is their money and lands?

    Lets be clear: There is no statute of limitations on mass murder..

  135. avatar ragnar naess // March 10, 2013 at 1:39 pm // Reply

    but Diran,
    first: I apologize for calling you confused. but of you look at the style of some of the participants here, it is easy to resort to the same kind of language. You wrote that I shed “Crocodile tears” when II expressed my indignation at how the organisers at Erzurum handled the “Armenian-Turkish” realtions. now, that was not very nice, was it?
    to “suggest” that crime against humanity is “better” to use in court than “genocide” because it will be easier for Turks to admit, is a very peculiar reasoning for a former president of the IAGS, I feel. This change removes the “with intent to destroy…”. Why somebody would suggest such a change is of course an important question, påarticularly when it comes from one of the leading experts in international law. Now he says something in the same article which may explain this, and I will cite:
    “In discussions about the attempted destruction of the European Jews, ‘deniers’ are nothing more than articulate anti-Semites armed with footnotes. Their stock in trade is a challenge to historical facts that are unquestionable and of common knowledge. But in the context of the Armenian atrocities, and many other situations where the term genocide is at issue, the epithet of ‘denier’ often is employed not with respect to what actually happened but rather about
    the legal qualification of the events. Accordingly, commentators may be branded as deniers when they disagree about whether or not the term genocide correctly applies to facts about which there is broad consensus. Of course, it is impossible to untangle entirely issues of fact and of law. However, the increasing readiness to dismiss any discussion about the appropriateness of the term genocide makes serious scholarly discourse more difficult.”(p.256)
    I draw your attention to the last sentence. It seems here that Schabas is commenting on debating style which implies attacking people who in the main agree on facts but is hesitant about using the term “genocide”. I woill stop here, but what Schabas here says – and other points her makes – are to my mind interesting.

  136. can it be article 285 or 288 that keeps a Genocide denialist “infatuated” and in “love” with Turkey?

    http://www.pressout.net/turkey-worlds-biggest-prison-for-media/

    • well Perouz, let’s ask the man.

      Mr. Rangar Naess:

      why are you infatuated with and in love with Turkey ?
      please tell us.

  137. avatar ragnar naess // March 10, 2013 at 4:21 pm // Reply

    VTiger,
    I agree that it is difficult to talk about “independent researchers” in this situation. but I read quite a lot on the attempted collaboration between Halacolgu and Gaunt, and if the investigation had been done as proposed by Gaunt it would have been very valuable. but according to my informations he was prevented from playong any independent role. the skeletons found in the caves were removed by somebody, probably the jandarma at the initiative of some other agency. But needless to say I never agreed with Halacolgu, but i believe he expressed his own convictions. This is a starting point if you want to deal with anybody

    • Ragnar, you wrote ‘Halacoglu as independent expert’ & not ‘independent researcher’.
      ” the skeletons found in the caves were removed by somebody,”
      Removed by somebody?Who else other then the Turkish government?
      Why would anybody be surprised by the Turks removing the skeletons of my massacred ancestors when on a daily basis they are in the process of Genocide denial?
      Can you see now what they are doing & what they have done?

  138. Mr. Naess: By “crocodile tears” I was not focusing on your concerns about Erzerum but your entire approach: representing yourself as a quite sensitive and compassionate gentleman, while consistently insinuating that the “genocide label” was unjustified for reasons that only you knew about but never quite spelled out. There were no reasons, none you were willing to state and defend. That was just your way of denying genocide.

    But now that has changed! You have finally admitted that 1915 was indeed a genocide but now hold that it is a truth that should be subordinated to some presumably higher purpose as defined by “new players” who have suddenly appeared on the horizon. (One can only guess where they had been hiding all that time.)

    On the meaning of Schabas’s last sentence which you claim to understand, maybe the following quotation from the IAGS letter to Erdogan in 2009 offers a hint, especially the LAST SENTENCE:

    Outside of your government, there is no doubt about the facts of the Armenian Genocide, therefore our concern is that your demand for a historical commission is political sleight of hand designed to deny those facts. Turkey has, in fact, shown no willingness to accept impartial judgments made by outside
    commissions. Five years ago, the Turkish members of the Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission pulled out of the commission after the arbitrator, the International Center for Transitional Justice, rendered an assessment that the events of 1915 were genocide.

  139. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 4:00 am // Reply

    avery
    about infatuation I believe it was a remark I made in my presentation in Salt Lake City in 2010. I said I WAS infatuated with Turkey but that the infatuation was gone and that one must also criticise one’s friends. This I do, even people who invite me for their conferences.

    Diran
    I usually refer people to earlier debates in the AW when people ask about this but I will make a short version can enlarge on any of the points.
    First, many researchers disagree that the label “genocide”is correct to apply to what happened to the Armenians in 1915-16, so it should not surprise you if you meet one
    Second, there are many usages of the word “genocide” so I always want to clarify the usage if I discuss with someone, we must know that we use the word in the same way. For some usages I would say yes, it was genocide, for some no and for some maybe
    Third, if “a program for the general extermination of the Armenians” is meant when we speak of an Armenian Genocide, then I am not certain for the following reasons: 1. Some 300.000 Armenians were exempted from deportation. This does not make sense if it was a plan for general etermination.2. Many died because they were deported marching, but in the West they were sent on railroads, this does not make sense if the intent was to kill them. 3. There was an enormous mortality among people the CUP wanted to keep alive, for instance soldiers. Armenian mortality might be caused by the same factors. 4. There are informations that more than 1000 people were punished at the time for atrocities against Armenian deportees . 5. The alleged direct proofs (e.g. the Andonian papers) have been suspected of being frauds, and historians stopped referring to them.6. There are too many telegrams from Talat insisting on protecting and feeding the deportees, and asking for punishment. But it is held that this was just a make-believe. I really found no really convincing research in this. So I am not certain.
    Fourth, if one means that it was genocide because Armenia would no doubt win a court case in the ICJ, one has to look at how the ICTY and the ICTR has handled cases of alleged genocide. One has to look at the Bosnia-Serbia trial and the report on Darfur. The wordings of the judges make me doubt whether Turkey(The CUP) would be found guilty.
    Fifth. If the criteria of the ICTJ in 2002 were used , I would say Yes it was genocide. The central passage is the following: we believe that the most reasonable conclusion to draw from the various accounts of the Events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.unquote.

    I believe it is correct that at least some of the perpetrators knew this, or intended to “kill all Armenians” .I have in mind those who massacred Armenians in certain places, cf. the horrible stories from south of Malatya and Erzincan, and along the Tigris south of Diyarbakir. I have little reason to doubt them.

    Turkish leaders deported people and were not able to feed and defend them – if they wanted this, Armenian cultural monuments were destroyed, many of those who had blood on their hands went unpunished into the ranks of Atatürk, Armenian properties were not returned in spite of promises. A whole people more or less disapeared from their ancestral lands. Turkey has good reason to apologize for this

  140. Ragnar:

    evasive answer as usual. obfuscating as usual in the guise of ‘dialogue’.

    we asked you “why”.
    we didn’t ask whether or not you are still infatuated or still in love.

    again, why were you infatuated with or in love with Turkey ?
    and are you still in love ?

    (infatuations don’t last, as you pointed out: but love can last a lifetime)

  141. {“ Ottomans are not known to force conversion contrary to common myth. You would all be praying towards Mecca five times a day otherwise.”}, writes Denialist Murat above.

    As I have written before, Denialitis plays tricks on one’s mind.
    Denialist Murat states that AG is a myth created by Armenians.
    Apparently the Siege of Vienna and Battle of Vienna are also myths.

    [The Siege of Vienna in 1529 was the first attempt by the Ottoman Empire, led by Suleiman the Magnificent, to capture the city of Vienna, Austria. The siege signaled the pinnacle of the Ottoman Empire's power, the maximum extent of Ottoman expansion in central Europe, and was the result of a long-lasting rivalry with Europe. Thereafter, 150 years of bitter military tension and reciprocal attacks ensued, culminating in the Battle of Vienna in 1683, which marked the start of the Great Turkish War by European powers to remove the Ottoman presence. The Ottoman failure to capture Vienna in 1529 turned the tide against almost a century of unchecked conquest throughout eastern and central Europe,] (from Wiki)

    Got that Murat ? To remove the cancerous Ottoman presence.

    Yeah, had Christians not stopped the Ottoman invasion of Europe and stopped the forcible conversion to Islam, Europe would be mired in poverty like the rest of Islamic counties.
    (yeah, Arab sheikdoms too: it is the Christian, technologically advanced West that created a need for oil, and buys the oil)

    Go check the list of world’s top 10 or 15 economies: see how many Muslim countries you can find.

    If it weren’t for Christian Europe and the Christian West, Turkey would be as advanced as Afghanistan.
    If it weren’t for all the wealth that Christian subjects of Ottoman invaders created, and which Turks subsequently looted, most of Turkey would be mired in poverty and arrested development as its Eastern provinces are today.

    Is it an accident that Turkey is most advanced and prosperous where it is geographically nearest to Christian Europe ?
    Why is it that 50% of Turkey’s exports go to Christian EU, and not to the Organization of Islamic States countries ?
    Why is it that Turkey has been practically begging for years to be allowed into a Christian club.
    Christians are telling Muslim Turks to please go away, but they won’t take ‘No” for an answer.
    How many Christian counties do you know that are begging to join a Muslim club ?
    Why is it that several million Muslim Turks live in Christian Europe today ?
    How many millions of Christians live in Muslim Turkey today ?

    So pray towards Mecca five times a day that Christians do no disappear from this world, Muslim Murat.

    • Got a little racist there…

    • Well RVDV: you may be right.

      But have told you about Murat before: he is a vile Denialist, who writes things like this: “….the so called Genocide is a myth created by defeated Armenians”. (yeah, murdered Armenian women, children and babies were defeated enemies).
      and this: {“There was no denial of Dersim. Facts and figures are there. Maybe it was not highlighted and talked about, but it was hardly denied. In fact, the real stroy and facts can never be erased. Unlike the Armenian genocide myth, where the facts and figures are mostly manufactured. You see the difference?”} (@HDN, including the spelling error)

      When someone hits me below the belt, I start kicking them in the n____s, and will continue hitting until they cry “Uncle”: I know no other way.

      I hate to hurt the feelings of our reasonable, fair-minded Turkish guests such as you. But, you tell me how to respond to people like Murat who visit ArmenianWeekly and write this: {“One can not credibly argue against “fake” shamful acts, or manufactured history such as favored here on this site, as I have done without respecting all facts. “} (referring to AG).

      And you have shown anger before towards some Turks who have denigrated or belittled Kurds and/or Alevis, haven’t you ?

      I never claimed to be Mr Data.

    • I try not to respond to them anymore, but I give in every now and then. End of the day, all that happens is that you get ticked off while they continue to live in a fantasy land of no AG, mountain Turks, and unicorns. He is right about one point. The facts will remain the facts, and the myths and lies will remain myths and lies. It’s why I don’t comment on Turkish websites. No point. You can’t use facts against these people, because it’s all an anti-Turkish western conspiracy… and incidentally most of these people left Turkey and sought some sort of refuge- mainly economic- in the west that apparently hates their guts.

  142. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 9:27 am // Reply

    There is of course a need to clarify what I mean. Needless to say the crimes committed against the Armenians were colossal and the consequences catastrophic even if we say that the reasons for using the term “genocide” according to the meaning of the convention, are doubtful. I’d like to clarify, if what is asked for is clarification. But if you want to reject my ideas without discussion, I am less tempted to clarify.
    Only one point regardging 3.3.: To march people on foot without providing enough food and security appears as an effective way of indirectly killing large number of people and at the same time disguising this killing as deaths resulting from the general conditions. The railway also was needed for military purposes. So for me it is really a paradox that CUP used the railways in Western Anatolia.

  143. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 10:53 am // Reply

    Avery
    good that you dont leave your energetic approach…. I first met Turks in Norway where the great majority were honest, hardworking and hospitable, nice people. In Turkey, it was a fascination to get to know these people and the land. Hence infatuation. My acquaintances in the villages were nice people. My moral condemnation because of the knowledge of the Armenian Genocide was at first – what should I say? – weakened because I was shocked to learn that so much similar happened to the Turks through the shrinking of the Empire 1821-1922. Ordinary civilians killed and expelled in millions. And the Powers didnt care then and in the West nobody knows now. this is not just. But the bottom line is that the Turks choose to forget and repress these memories, and the Armenians demanded recognition and reparations and border revisions for decades. Today I emphasize the bottom line, not the full context.The Turks must deliver. But I have little patience with ideas that “the life in the Ottoman empire was always a catastrophy for the Armenians” or “the Turks were bad from the moment they left the Upper Yenisei”

  144. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 10:59 am // Reply

    I’d like to add: my understanding of the issue of 1915 was deepened by my dialogues in the AW. I realized how the trauma is perpetuated and Turkish attiudes are in the main recalcitrant and denying.

    • I very much appreciate this clear statement, Ragnar. Turkey unwisely perpetuates this trauma through its recalcitrance and denial. The way forward is really very simple. Turkey should deal courageously with its past and start on the path toward closing this tragic chapter of history.

      The resolution to this tragedy is not in the dissection and reanalysis of details, but in an acknowledgment of the end result: The Armenians of the Ottoman Empire were unlawfully dispossessed of their homeland and over a million lost their lives through massacre and starvation, while the government that should have protected them expropriated their property and redistributed it to Turks and Kurds. Turkey directly benefited from the confiscated wealth of the Armenians and thus inherited the responsibility for the crimes of the Ottoman government—-whether or not you agree it was genocide.

  145. Mr. Naess: You say, “A whole people more or less disappeared from their ancestral lands” [or "left" as Halacoglu put it in his book]. With that typically noncommittal statement you come as close to the truth as you are ever likely to get. Genocide is the only real explanation, but you still hem and haw. More fog, endless and cold. . . .

  146. Avery; I have never heard of anyone teaching just once a year as he claims to, unless they are invited as a guest lecturer. Few universities will invite the same professor every year. They want different points of view, the presentation of the most current research. I have heard of a professor who has given a lecture in Turkey. They treated him like royalty because they liked his pro Turk position – not on Armenian Genocide. Free hotel, tours, meals, etc. I’ll have to see if he became “infatuated” and fell in “love” with Turkey. I remember that there was a denier on these pages who was offered free melon and shish kebab the next time he was in Istanbul. Do you remember if it was this one?

  147. Ragnar:

    {“…. I first met Turks in Norway where the great majority were honest, hardworking and hospitable, nice people. In Turkey, it was a fascination to get to know these people and the land.”}.

    Thanks for some background on why you feel such affinity to Turks. Some.

    Question: what exactly fascinated you about these people and the land ? their songs and dances ? their cuisine ? what exactly made Turks stand out in Norway in your eyes ?
    Did it occur to you that the many things being presented to Europeans such as yourself as “Turkish” are not of Turkish origin at all, but were, shall we say in the spirit of ‘dialogue’ – “borrowed” from Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and other indigenous peoples, whom Turks’ predecessors forcibly subjugated and erased from Asia Minor, after “borrowing” their creations ?

    Your explanation is somewhat strange and not convincing at all.
    I will show you why it is strange that you formed your affinity to Turks, and only Turks, after encountering them in Norway.
    Here is why (Immigration to Norway, origins, as of 2012):

    1. Poland: 72,103
    2. Sweden: 36,578
    3. Pakistan: 32,737
    4. Somalia: 29,395
    5. Iraq: 28,935
    6. Germany: 25,683
    7. Lithuania: 23,941
    8. Vietnam: 20,871
    9. Denmark : 19,823
    10. Iran: 17,913
    11. Russia: 16,833
    12. Turkey: 16,742
    13. Philippines 16,431
    14. Bosnia-Herzegovina 16,338
    15. Thailand 14,398

    Turks are way down there percentage wise. Why is it that you did not encounter Pakistanis or Somalis, for example ?
    The probability is at least twice that of encountering Turks.
    There is no doubt in my mind that Pakistanis and Somalis in Norway are honest, hardworking, hospitable, nice people.
    I have never been to Norway, but immigrants I encounter in US from all over the world are by and large honest, hardworking, hospitable, nice people.
    So again, what is it about Turks that so fascinates you ?
    Why not Iranians ? There are just as many Iranians in Norway as Turks: Iran is a beautiful country with a rich, ancient civilization.
    Why is it that you show so much empathy to Turks in the Balkans, but doggedly continue your counter-empathetic efforts on Turks’ behalf to deny the Armenian Genocide ?
    Would you be so generous if Turks had invaded and devastated Norway ?

    And it is also good you do not leave your energetically devious, denialist approach.

    To wit:
    {“ I was shocked to learn that so much similar happened to the Turks through the shrinking of the Empire 1821-1922. Ordinary civilians killed and expelled in millions. And the Powers didnt care then and in the West nobody knows now.”}

    We have discussed the Turks in the Balkans, and how they ended up there from their origins in East and Central Asia.
    We have discussed it ad nauseam.
    Again: invaders exterminating the indigenous populations as a State policy of organized Genocide vs subjugated indigenous populations throwing off the yoke of foreign invaders.
    Did Norwegians resist Nazi invaders: Yes or No.
    Are members of Norwegian Resistance national heroes or is it the scum collaborator Vidkun Quisling: Yes or No.

  148. Ragnar – considering that the devastating consequences and ultimate outcome of the CUP’s decision, and the refusal of subsequent Turkish governments to either condemn or refute their policies and actions, how is it that the word genocide would not apply? And, we haven’t even stepped into the realm of cultural genocide and the destruction of historic Armenian monuments all across Turkey – either by order or consent of successive governments. I still do not see any reason NOT to use the word, since it is the most accurate one that can be applied. As we’ve noted here before, the word is bandied about quite often today for crimes that do not approach anything close to what was perpetrated on the Armenians of Anatolia. Does this make sense? Not in the least. Let’s also be clear, this exclusivity and exceptionalist attitude regarding the holocaust must stop. It is used over and over again to denigrate and discount what happened to the Armenians, yet what took place in Anatolia – the destruction of an indigenous population – was much, much worse, not in terms of numbers, of course, but in terms of the level of cultural and ethnic destruction – it far exceeded the holocaust and provided a clear blueprint for the Germans.

    • avatar Boyajian // March 11, 2013 at 5:21 pm //

      …..And the Germans have provided the blueprint for how to apologize and redeem a nation after it has committed such heinous crimes

  149. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 4:10 pm // Reply

    avery
    excuse me but your long mail is a very strange one. I was one of the Norwegian sutdents who together with foreign workers started the Foreign Workers Association in 1971. I wolked then with all groups.I came to the Turks by accident in 1979 because their association was working very effectively at the time. And this is anyhow bullshit! Why should I necessarily start to work with the most populous group of immigrants? You have done better than this before, Avery. – Regarding the turkish experience of massacre and ethnic cleansing it also fulfills many of the criteria of genocide, and certainly those of the ICTJ The Greeks murdered 30.000 civilian turks in spring 1821, men women and children, and one of their popular songs sounded like this: Not a Turk shall remain in the Morea and not in the whole world.unquote. What is this called?

    • {“…. I first met Turks in Norway where the great majority were honest, hardworking and hospitable, nice people. In Turkey, it was a fascination to get to know these people and the land. Hence infatuation.”}

      we asked you why you developed your love and infatuation for Turks.
      the above quote is what you answered.

      it is clearly an evasive answer, because statistically you should have encountered some other nationalities in Norway with 100% more probability than Turks. So you are hiding and obfuscating the real reasons for your professed love for Turks.

      we have a saying out here in the West, USA: “If you cannot dazzle them with your brilliance, blind them with your b___s___.”

      Your b____s___ will not blind me, because I always wear my b__s___ proof goggles when working with denialists. OSHA Regulations.

      And your slip is showing, Sir: why don’t you also quote what Turks have said about and done to Greeks. Or your heart only bleeds for your beloved Turks ?

      How about commenting on what Perouz wrote below about the pregnant Armenian woman ?
      Do you accept what she wrote as true or you want to ‘debate’ and ‘discuss’ it ?

  150. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 4:13 pm // Reply

    karekin,
    look to my earlier post. What happened to the Armenians certainly was genocide according to the ICTJ criteria and possibly Armenia would also win a court case at the ICJ. but I am not sure, and this is my point.

  151. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 4:17 pm // Reply

    perouz,
    you can send a mail to professor Bernt Hagtvet, bernt.hagtvet@stv.uio.no. go to the university website http://www.uio.no and you will find him

  152. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 4:27 pm // Reply

    Avery
    regarding your question about Norway. You are an intelligent and energetic man. but please stop for a moment and think. when Germany lost the war there were more than 100.000 german soldiers in Norway, butr they left peacefully and we never killed them. but we tried the war criminals. Persecution of civilians or the killing of soldiers who have surrendered – even if they belong to an occupying force – is a crime. Read international law. But thank you for asking me questions instead of just duiscussing me with others in this forum as if I was not present. This is an example of decency. And again, thank you for your arguments about the alleged mass graves of Turks, it is important.

    • Ragnar,put it correctly:Mass graves of Armenians killed by Turks.There are no alleged mass graves of Turks.Who took away the skeletons?

  153. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 4:30 pm // Reply

    Boyajian,
    yes, Armenians have shown me to what extent the trauma continues. Thank you for your inputs.
    Diran
    I suggest you read again my post above. What happened qualified a genocide provided certain criteria. I never denied this.

  154. avatar ragnar naess // March 11, 2013 at 4:37 pm // Reply

    george
    yes, extermination happened, but that is something else than analysing the role of the central ittihadists, isnt it? Besides, extermination of civilians as such is deemed a crime against humanity (see Schabas 2009, paperback, p. 13), genocide requires the specific intent which is difficult to prove, but not impossible. I repeat that I am not sure, I do not exclude the possibility.

    • “…genocide requires the specific intent which is difficult to prove, but not impossible.”
      and what is that specific intent that term genocide requires? with references please

    • Dolus Specialis in relation to genocide means that the perpetrator commits an act while clearly seeking to destroy the particular group, in whole or in part.

      This is helpful in setting genocide apart from other crimes against humanity, war crimes, etc.

      However, it is very difficult, and indeed impossible in some cases, to prove beyond a doubt that the perpetrators intent was to destroy the group. Intent is a state of mind, unless you explicitly state your goal, it is very difficult to prove it. International laws on genocide were based on the Holocaust, and unlike other, Hitler was very open, from the start, about his true intentions. A very clear example of the problem that special intent poses is Darfur. The UN international commission found that the government forces and militias of Sudan:

      “conducted indiscriminate attacks, including killing of civilians, torture, enforced disappearances, destruction of villages, rape and other forms of sexual violence, pillaging and forced displacement, throughout Darfur. These acts were conducted on a widespread and systematic basis…”

      However… the UN commission said that despite these systematic killings, the intent factor of genocide was missing. Now the UN ruling has several flaws, but the Darfur case shows how difficult it is to prove genocidal intent…. in some cases. Not all.

  155. Karakin: in response to your comment – “the destruction of an indigenous population – was much, much worse, not in terms of numbers, of course, but in terms of the level of cultural and ethnic destruction – it far exceeded the holocaust and provided a clear blueprint for the Germans.”

    Of course, you are correct that the Genocide provided the Germans with a blueprint, and that it is intent and not numbers that determines genocide. However, we need to also take into account that at least Germany acknowledged their actions and attempted to make restitution, giving at least partial relief to survivors and descendants. I understand that some Jews were even given life-time pensions.

    There are many who would challenge the number of 1.5 million murdered as being inadequate. It is in part based on census numbers. Those numbers never included very young children or infants, and I question if they even included unmarried women in the family. As well, many children were born and died during the death marches. I have always had a deep sorrow for these uncounted children, feeling that by not including them in the number, they had somehow become invisible. I always remember them when I am at the Tsitsernakaberd.

  156. Naess: “Genocide requires the specific intent which is difficult to prove, but not impossible.”

    Since Mr. Naess seems to know so much about specific intent, I would ask him to clearly and without a host of ifs, ands, and buts explain how it is proved, according to his understanding. I would also ask him whether he believes the IAGS took its position on 1915 without a finding of specific intent.

  157. Unlike other victims of Nazi invasions, Norwegian occupation was relatively benign. There was no war of extermination between Norwegians and Nazi invaders. Nazis did not consider Norwegians Untermenschen.
    Still Norwegians resisted (and some collaborated).

    The estimates of armed Norwegian resistance is about 40K-50K.
    Armed Nazi collaborators about 10K-15K.

    Norwegian losses in WW2 – about 10K.
    Norway’s population WW2: 3 million.

    Do the math.

    And funny how denialist Turcophiles remember international law when it applies to Turks.
    Apparently killing surrendered soldiers is crime for sure – yes it is.
    But exterminating 2 million unarmed Armenian civilians, including children and babies – planned, organized, executed – is to be ‘debated’ until the end of time: was it crime ? was it Genocide ? Welllll……let’s discuss it and see if we can prove something or other.

    And regarding 100,000 Germans and who left and you Norwegians never killed them: because they left.
    Maybe if Ottoman Turks who had been occupying somebody else’s lands for centuries and had been ethnically cleansing and exterminating the locals for centuries had left, they would not be killed either ? What do you think ?

    You think if the Red Army had not fought the Nazi invasion force – which openly announced their intention to exterminate most Slavs and enslave the rest for slave labor – had not fought the Nazi murderers to the death, they would have left ?

    One final thing: you have pulled this stunt on others before; don’t even bother with me.
    Don’t waste your time flattering me in a juvenile attempt to drive a wedge between us Armenians.

    One motto for this “inbreeding” Armenian: Never forget, Never forgive.

    And you still haven’t old us why your are so partial to Turks and not Pakistanis, Somalis, Iranians, for example.

  158. The following are just two excerpts about children born during the death caravan marches.

    “Forming a ring around us, armed Kurds ordered us to move. The caravan began slowly moving forward. We had barely traveled half an hour away from Karniaragh when our neighbor Arakel’s wife began suffering the pain of childbirth. Village mothers tried to help her, but the Kurds pulled them away and began mocking the birthing woman’s gestures. The caravan again moved forward, leaving behind the woman who had not finished birthing, Kurds still jeering.”

    “A woman from Oghnout began to suffer the pangs of childbirth. We suddenly heard the sharp screams of the newborn child. That long, dark night finally passed. The caravan was ordered to move forward early in the morning. The newborn’s mother carefully wrapped her small child and placed it in the shadow of a large rock. She stood beside her child, sobbing. We all walked. The newborn’s mother walked as well, still grieving.”

    Some of the women who gave birth during the Genocide knew their infants would die along with them, so they left them in hopes that they would be found by a righteous Kurd and taken in. I have gone to Oghnout, and I actually met the descendant of an Armenian child left at Oghnout during the Genocide. He said there was one other person in the area whose ancestor had also been left by an Armenian. Both children had been raised as Kurds, but knew about their Armenian background. They knew their mothers had left them and why.

    This man gave me a gift I will never forget. He wanted so much to give me something, but he had so very little. He ran into his house and came running out with a large bag. When I opened it, I saw that it was full of the walnuts he had gathered and stored for their winter food. I had great difficulty in suppressing my tears, just as I do now in remembering him and remembering the mother who had to leave her child. This man was just so happy that Armenians had come, and that they knew about his ancestor, and how it was that he had come to be there. I am going back to see him again. I am so glad that the two little babies left at Oghnout survived with righteous Kurds who told them their history, but I know about many other little babies, including my father’s two year old brother, Hovannis, and his sweet little five year old brother, who were murdered.

  159. Intent? Here is documentation not only about intent, but about those uncounted baby victims:

    “The kaymakam ordered the gendarmes to take the obviously pregnant woman away. They pushed her onto the ground with great force. She got up and angrily shouted, “Kaymakam, hear well what I say to you. Even if you kill me, you will not be able to kill the children who will one day come to avenge their
    martyred parents.”

    These words from the woman enraged the kaymakam. “Kill this daughter of a dog, immediately!” he ordered, The gendarmes attacked the woman with horrifying brutality. After beating her, they dragged her to a nearby pit. They came back barely five minutes later, bringing with them the flesh of the woman’s child impaled on a bayonet.

    The kaymakam climbed into his cart, and speaking to the women and children in the caravan, said, “A disobedient race like yours must be exterminated. Even the children in your bellies must be done away with, just like that…,” and he pointed to the bloodied heap of flesh still pierced on the edge of the bayonet.

    In a horrified voice, Ohannes said, “The woman they killed was from my village of Tarman.”

  160. To rvdv
    So you think that carefull picking Armenian victims, from the croud to brutally murder, is not necessarily could be defined as a genocide? Do you know a definition of a genocide? Please google it.
    and there plenty open Turkish official statement calling for Armenian extermination.

    • Like I said…. Genocidal intent is hard to prove in some cases.. Not all.

    • to RVDV
      We are not talking about “some cases” but about Armenian Genocide. Killing of everyone including innocent people (kids, women and elderly people) is exact intent to exterminate nation!

    • There are literally countless examples of widespread killing of “everyone including innocent people”. We don’t have thousands of accepted cases of genocide. We have very few cases of near universal accepted genocide by genocide scholars. The Armenian genocide is one of those few. The reason I brought up “some cases” to give an example as to how difficult special intent can be to prove, and how even cases that seem to be genocide get ruled differently.

  161. avatar ragnar naess // March 12, 2013 at 5:19 am // Reply

    avery,
    the “if”s and other qualifications are part of the style we find in research. I am not trying to make any wedge between Armenians, it is your friend who blurted out with criticism of you and referring to the ARF, who does this.
    There is of course a lot to say about my infatuatuation with Turks. I even wrote 400 pages in Norwegian where my own development regarding the Armenian Genocide plays a part. If you give me an adress I can send it to you. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO HIDE. This is why I notified the WATS listserve in 2008 when the Turkish Embassy proposed that I write an application for them to finance a book.— Of course one is fascinated by a country like this, and the meals and the attention they gave to me certainly made its impact. However, I always looked for an impartial role. This was about the torture inflictred on left-wingers, the coup which had taken place 6 months before my first fieldwork. We had stormy discussion of this always. I brought the annual reports of the Human rights Association to them, and the reading of this reports were horrible. They consisted of victim testimonies and physicians’ reports. I asked to interview women separately, and did this. They told me about the hazards of their childbirths before they got the concrete road to the village and about their husbands having Norwegian mistresses while they were in Norway – this was before the majority of the woves and children came. For me it was impossible to do my work in another way. On the contrary, I have routinely ruined my possibilities for good projects in Norway because I got the feeling that I was led into a trap by those who considered hiring me. I made my stand clear. I TRY to do the same in relation to the Armenian Genocide.

  162. Mr. Naess: You have CONSPICUOUSLY failed to give a direct answer concerning how specific intent is determined, according to your understanding. [I refer to my comment of Mar. 11th.] This is a point you have given great importance to. If you fail to answer then I would suggest that you have no further right to make any pronouncements on the Armenian Genocide in this forum.

  163. avatar ragnar naess // March 13, 2013 at 6:11 am // Reply

    diran
    sorry for not answering you. I am no specialist, but I will try by way of examples. What you ask about is very extensive and there is no agreement among relevant scholars. RDVD provides a definition above and this is to my mind mor or less correct, but need to be stated in a more general form: dolus specialis has a reference to a mental state in which the perpetrator envisages a specific criminal result of his actions. Opposite is intent as intent to perform a specific action which is criminal. But the matter is more tangled if you ask how to DETERMINE specific intent. In the Akayesu (Rwanda) verdict he was found guilty of genocide because 1. he was on the spot while people were killed. 2. he did not stop the killings in spite of being a leader. 3. He made comments that indicated that he was after Tutsis as such. —While the verdict as far as I remember did not explicitly use the term circumstantial evidence, the reasoning of the prosecution must be termed so. (The Andonian telegrams, if they had been trustworthy, would have determined a dolus specialis in Talaat because he allegedly explicitly said that Armenians were to be killed). In the Armenian case we rely on circumstantial evidence which is also the view of e.g. Akcam.
    In the Bosnia-Serbia trial the judges asked for direct evidence that the genocidal killings of srebrenica were ordered by Beograd. But no such order was documented by the Bosnians. So the practice of ICJ indicates that you must have unequivocal orders for targeting the victim group as such, in order to destroy their group in whole or in part. This was criticised by Cassese, who however in his Darfur Report provides another example of the difficulty in DETERMINING genocidal intent: he says that in some cases darfurians were spared and the gangs only killed young men as suspected rebels. He distinguishes between “indicative” actions and the opposite, the indicative actions indicated that the aim was counter insurgencyu, he says, but does not explain this in detail. But the conclusion was: no genocide.This is analogous to the sparing of a lot of Armenians. This view was criticised, most succinctly by Eric Reeves, I believe.
    Apart from this there are opinions to the effect that in subordinates the mere knowledge that what is going on is genocide is enough to establish the required intent, that is a variant of what is called dolus eventualis. In his 2009 edition Schabas subscribes to this view. But in leaders there is required a mental state in which actions consciously aim at the destruction of the group. The ICTJ is content with dolus eventualis, it seems, and this makes it easier to establish genocidal intent, which apparently the legal experts intended to do regarding the Armenian case. But inadvertently they gave a broad criterion which makes it meaningless to deny that Turks also suffered genocide in certain circumstances, cf. the 1821 example I mentioned. The existing verdicts, however, reject dolus eventualis as the kind of guilt required in genocide cases. They insist on dolus specialis and also on conclusion beyond any doubt, not a mere probability above 50 percent (the MOST probable..).—-
    Here I have tried to illusicate the problematics by way of examples. But there does not exist to my mind an unequivocal METHOD or Algorithm to DETERMINE dolus specialis.

  164. Mr. Naess: You could have spared us another of your fog jobs by studying the literature more closely before responding. The only correct point you make is that determination of specific intent is difficult. Any 3rd grader could have told us that! EVERYTHING about genocide is difficult. You have thus only confirmed my conviction that you do not know what you are talking about and have contributed zero to an understanding of 1915.

    If you carefully study and reflect on the ICTJ’s conclusion on the “1915 Events” (quoted below) you may begin to get an inkling of how specific intent to commit genocide is determined in most cases.

    “We believe that the most reasonable conclusion to draw from the various accounts of the Events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent. Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention.”

  165. avatar ragnar naess // March 13, 2013 at 1:01 pm // Reply

    Mr.Diran,
    I felt like a schoolboy answering at exams when I answered you. But honestly speaking, I am not so impressed by your answer. The text you cite is of course known. But cant you see that the expression “at least some of the perpetrators” implies a low-threshold usage of the term “genocide”, a minimum requirement which is very different from what e.g. genocide scholars hold. For these the genocidal intent of the CUP is central, and the ICTJ says nothing about this.

  166. Mr. Naess: Dolus specialis is exactly what the ICTJ is referring to with its finding of genocidal intent. That, as I think you know, is the crux of the crime of genocide. In referring to the Convention, it is referring to specific intent, not dolus eventualis as you vainly try to make out. You are not in any position to make a pronouncement on “low threshold/high threshold”. “At least some of the perpetrators” certainly includes Talat and Enver, and that is enough to prove genocide in the fullest sense.

    The finding is one of GENOCIDE, strictly based on the definition of the Convention. You can’t get around that no matter how hard you try. Barring rare cases of explicit genocidal intent revealed in statements or publications on the part of the perpetrator(s), the mental element of the crime, dolus specialis, is inferred from the very scale and nature of the results themselves. It is not a matter of an isolated “state of mind”. That idea is a complete fallacy. In the case of the Armenian Genocide, the results are all too clear. One doesn’t have to be an expert in international law or history to notice that Armenian national life in eastern Turkey disappeared overnight after existing and thriving there for three thousand years. As Halacoglu callously and arrogantly put it, the Armenians “left”. But anyone with a conscience and functioning intellect knows better. . .

    • Yes, I believe the Akayesu case in the ICTR concluded that intent is proven by prior actions. However, in a case like Darfur, this precedent was not followed for some reason. The legal language can prove problematic is some cases, but not with the Armenian genocide.

  167. avatar ragnar naess // March 16, 2013 at 3:39 am // Reply

    Diran
    I see that you and I disagree in many important respects. Are you sure you are not exaggerating the disagreement? For instance when I say that “A whole people more or less disappeared from their ancestral lands” and that this is a reason for Turkey to apologize” you brush it off as “cold fog”. Are you sure you are not constructing me as an enemy much more that what is warranted by by words? are you sure you follow the reasonings of international law that I present? I have been checking my reasonings with professors in criminal law and international law, they are not totally off the mark
    Are you sure you are trying to ride two incompatible horses at one time when you denounce my statement ““A whole people more or less disappeared from their ancestral lands” as COLD, whereas it is simply what happened and parallel to what has been said by Armenians many times here in the AW? What is cold about this? But I realize that you try to construct me as someone who does not care about the terrible fate of the Armenians. Isnt that so?
    RDVD
    Yes, it is an established principle in criminal law that you can infer criminal intent not only from direct evidence like
    A plan or unequivocal statements about intent, but also by circumstantial evidence. I does not only apply to cases of genocide.

  168. avatar ragnar naess // March 16, 2013 at 3:42 am // Reply

    correction: Of course I wanted to say: Are you sure you are NOT riding two incompatible horses…”

  169. avatar Vazken MAVLIAN // March 16, 2013 at 10:41 pm // Reply

    Thank you Avery,
    {many things being presented to Europeans …as “Turkish” are not of Turkish origin at all, but were, shall we say in the spirit of ‘dialogue’ – “borrowed” from Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and other indigenous peoples, whom Turks’ predecessors forcibly subjugated and erased from Asia Minor, after “borrowing” their creations}
    while on this subject please check this news

    ԲՐԻՏԱՆԱԿԱՆ ԹԱՆԳԱՐԱՆԸ ԿԸ ՇԱՐՈՒՆԱԿԷ ՊԱՏՄԱԿԱՆ ԻՐԵՐՈՒ ՊԱՏԿԱՆԵԼԻՈՒԹԵԱՆ ԽԵՂԱԹԻՒՐՈՒՄԸ
    Լոնտոնի Բրիտանական թանգարանին մէջ Պատմութեան խեղաթիւրումի ու Կեղծիքի նոր պարագայ մը՝ հայկական պատկանելիութեան առարկաներու գծով:
    Վերջերս կազմակերպուած ցուցահանդէսի մը առիթով, պատմական Հայաստանի (բռնագրաւեալ) տարածքէն գտնուած պատմական իրերը ներկայացուած են «Ancient Turkey» անունին տակ, փորձելով այցելուներուն հաւատացնել թէ այդ ցուցանմոյշները թրքական են: Խումբ մը հայեր, խնդրոյ առարկայ նմոյշները ճշգրիտ տեղեկատուութեամբ ներկայացնելու եւ այս անարդարութիւնը սրբագրելու կոչ ուղղած են Բրիտանական թանգարանին: Այս նպատակով ձեռնարկած են ստորագրահաւաքի մը, որուն կարելի է մասնակցիլ հետեւեալ հասցէէն՝
    https://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/the-british-museum-stop-misrepresentation-of-armenian-heritage-as-ancient-turkey

  170. To Naess: You question that 1915 was genocide every chance you get. That is merely the passive, evasive form of genocide denial.The single word in the English language that most succinctly and meaningfully identifies what happened in 1915 you are not willing to accept and, in fact, go far, far out of your way to discredit. That, to me, does not exude genuine sympathy for the obliteration of Armenian national life in Turkey and the actual suffering involved, which goes beyond the suffering of individuals as individuals.

    If you agree with RVDV that “yes, intent is proven by prior actions”, then how do you feel about the rest of his statement: “The legal language can prove problematic in some cases, but not with the Armenian genocide”? If you agree with that also, then I may begin to believe in the warmth of your position. But until then I must assume that you are continuing to ride through the fog on your own two horses, from time to time stopping to consult with your “professors in criminal law” [Maxime Gauin?].

    To sum up: your supposed understanding of “specific intent” was spurious and without any basis in fact from the start, just as I thought, and I hope we will not see any further mention of it.

  171. avatar ragnar naess // March 26, 2013 at 4:02 am // Reply

    Diran
    regarding your post stasrting with “To Naess: You question that 1915 was genocide every chance you get”:
    I am sorry, but what you present as argument is for me just a string of words which do no capture the legal essence of the ICTJ. First, there is no mention of specific perpetrators in the conclusion. And you cannot just assume that they speak of Talat and Enver. It is open who it is. They talk about “some…”. right? Second, when they use as a criterion that perpetrators “knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.” they produce a low threshold criteria lower than the Convention demands. Here two different criteria are joined by an “or”, it means to my mind that both in the eyes of the ICTJ are sufficient criteria for establishing genocidal intent. But the first knowledge-based criterion “….knew that the consequences would be….” is not a description of dolus specialis which means a mental state of acting in order to produce a certain result, and not only realizing consequences of one’s actions. The last type of guilt or intent is called dolus eventualis (you can google it) and it is insufficient to establish genocidal intent. This means that the ICTJ accepted a lower threshold criterion, didnt it? only the knowledge of effects establishes the required intent.
    —- And needless to say this is neither “cold” nor “warm”. It is an example of an analysis, right or wrong. Now you may very well get last word saying “but it IS Wrong!!!”. But this is not what we call analysis

    • Ragnar:

      You were going to ask your friend Maxime about the little Qurans supposedly found on the ‘Muslim’ skeletons via private email: did you ?
      We are still waiting.

      and if you correspond with the Denialist Frenchman again, would you do me a little favour and ask him why he has not sued TodaysZaman for libel and defamation yet. I already debunked – without even trying – his lame excuse of French Statute of Limitations, so he needs to come up with something more challenging for me to work with. At this rate my brain will turn to mush in no time: I already detect signs of incipient senility.

      Mr. Naess, this is getting quite boring, you know.

      First you fall for the Quran trick: I mean, none of us on our side are experts on the rate of decomposition of various materials in soil and yet it is obvious to us Hoi polloi how implausible it would be for paper items to be found on skeletons that could be remotely identifiable as Qurans.
      Yet you swallowed it – hook, line, and sinker.
      You either have such a strong pro-Turkish bias that anything that supports your denialist views is believed. Or….?

      Next the video showing corpses lined up to be buried:
      It is obvious that there are differences in shades of grey of the clothing to the rest of us, yet you either failed to see it, or pretended not to see it.
      Again you either have such a strong pro-Turkish bias that anything that supports your denialist views is believed. Or….?

      And anyone with your professed affinity to the Turks and their lifestyles and such, would know that Muslims are buried wrapped in cloth head to toe. I knew that; how come you didn’t. And I am not an expert in Muslim Religious Studies. My Ph.D. is in Basket Weaving, so not even close.

      See Mr. Naess, all those elaborate ‘analysis’, ‘debate’, ‘discussion’ posts that you write trying to convince yourself – and only yourself – there was no Armenian Genocide crumble with simple slip-ups. It never fails. It is like those master spies that are sent to a foreign country. They learn the language like the natives, the local customs, place names, history, etc but they always forget something. Something insignificant always trips them up sooner or later.

  172. avatar Sylva-MD-Poetry // March 26, 2013 at 7:08 am // Reply

    I wrote my poetry collection…spring 2009 Before Mantel did…”Bring out our Bones”
    But mine is vanished by this site as well…they call themselves Armenian editors…If they vanish this time …I will curse them on behalf our genocided people…!!!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    2600 Cathedrals, Churches, Monasteries, schools vanished in so called “Godless Turkey” still our broken bells ” Everlasting belfry”are ringing on their heads…
    From Poetry Collection: “My Son-My Sun chants Ann, Obamas Mother”
    To recognize Armenian genocide as he announced before he was inaugurated as a president. ISBN:978-1-4568-4513-1 A copy forwarded to him and his wife (Both Lawyers) but without any response…Why…He was a poet, He loves poetry, did he read my book with condensed 237 pages published in June 2011… or became blind?

    We Will Reverberate,
    Till We Conquer
    Heartless-Minds

    We will reverberate and
    Our offspring will yell even after we sigh.
    Innocents’ blood shall never dry.
    We will dig the desert caves
    To understand . . .
    Why we were slayed?
    We will remain praying Like Queen Anne*.
    She was beheaded by a king
    We were killed by so-called elite Ottomans.
    Both were religious but faithless
    After enjoyment, prayed and slayed virgin girls.

    Like Anne and Catharine**,
    many Armenian girls walked
    Fearlessly, refusing to be touched by tyrants
    Who have religion but unbirthed with a natural faith.

    Virgin girls throw themselves in the Euphrates, Tigers Rivers,
    Having an immense faith in God.
    One god we all know, the same god called “Allah” of the Tyrant
    Even that god was afraid:
    He could not protect Armenians from the evilest blood shed.
    Mothers . . . Virgin girls committed suicide . . . died dignified,
    Could not accept to link heartily . . . with those faithless . . .

    Sylva-MD-Poetry
    Spring 2009 (April 24, 2009)
    ___________________________
    * Queen Anne Boleyn (c.1507—Executed 1536) was Queen of England from1533 to1536 as the second wife of King Henry VIII. Henry’s marriage to Anne, and her subsequent execution, made her key figure in the political and religious upheaval that was the start of the English Reformation.
    ** Queen Catherine Howard (c.1521—Executed 1542), was the fifth wife of Henry VIII of England, and sometimes known by his reference to her as his “rose without a thorn” she was beheaded after less than two years of marriage to Henry on the grounds of adultery committed while married to the King.

  173. Naess: Trying to negate the conclusion of genocide by the ICTJ on the basis that it has misread “intent to destroy” as “dolus eventualis” is pathetic and laughable. I will leave you and your “professors in criminal law” to trip over your self-invented “low thresholds”.

Leave a comment

Your email address will not be published.

*