Azerbaijan Runs Out of Oil, Then What?

82 Comments

1. Yet another great article from Garen Yegbarian. Good analysis. But here is my take. In reality, starting a war to distract domestic constituencies is a pet theory, with a very modest explanatory and predictive potential. Oil will not stop flowing out of Azerbaijan overnight, and economic pains will start appearing at a much slower pace than most people seeking sensationalist arguments think. Azerbaijan appetite for risk will gradually diminish, since the Aliyevs will start seriously worrying about the future of their rule. Dozens of countries including Armenia have been running budget deficits forever. The clan’s chief preoccupation at that time will be to suppress political rivals. Most likely this will be the point when Azerbaijan will return to the negotiating table to bargain with Armenians in good faith.

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   • For Armenias sake, it is not convenient to be over confident, it is better not to underestimate turks/azeries; remember they do not have western moral values, they do not respect humanity or the lifes of the innocent, we all know deep inside they are still barbarians. Armenia should not rely on Western countries for safety and be led down like in the past, maybe not even on Russia, armenia should rely on itself (monte melkonian said basically that). Armenia must remeber there will never be good will from turkey or the azeries, these inmoral people will never change their corrupted souls and criminal attitudes against armenia. Armenia should get nuclear weapons for self defense (being smaller and poorer), armenia should associate with russia like puerto rico did with the USA, should never rely on Western countries for real support (look at history!!) and should never ever thrust the turks and azeries (professional liers, murderers, robbers, truly genocidal people). Armenia should be prosperus and smart!!! God bless armenia. Do not dismiss azeri comments automatically, do not underestimate your enemies (big mistake!). Armenias legal approach on artsakh liberation should be re-design, redeploy, the madrid principles are wrong and bad for armenia, are wrong, do not reflect reality, the legal approach should change to reflect artsakh legal right to self determination, safety, independence and freedom (madrid principles are currently based on supposed violeted territoral integrity of azerbaijan, which was not and it is not the legal case nor the point about artsakh strugle).

2. “But I do know that it behooves the appropriate government ministries in Yerevan, and Armenian advocacy groups in the diaspora, to start figuring it out.”

   They key to this is in Artsakh’s water supply that is currently flowing to feed the enemy. Artsakh rivers should be going to Armenian fields. This will depopulate half of the Sultanate.

   This is what Turkey did to Syria. Water is more valuable and important than oil and gas in the long run. Let them drink their oil instead of clean Artsakh water and eat gas instead of food grown with Artsakh water.

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3. Well, as soon as Azerbaijan runs out of oil, it will become nothing more than a used pair of diapers. After all, what can the Azeris possibly accomplish without their oil? It’s their oil, which enables them to purchase all those military weapons. And, it’s their oil, which enables them to manipulate Europe, as well as the United States.

   In terms of engaging into a war with Armenia and Artsakh, the Azeris are also screwed in that department. As a result of their decreasing oil supply, the longer they wait, the less money they’ll have to buy newer military equipment. And even if Azerbaijan’s President Aliyev were to start a war with the Armenians at this very moment, the Armenian military forces would easily be able to knock out Azerbaijan’s oil and gas pipelines within two days, which would leave the Azeris in total economic ruin. Anyway, no matter how you look at all this, Azerbaijan is screwed from both sides.

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4. The analysis misses a very important factor … Yes, the oil may or may not run out, but the progress made between now and then will not just disappear. We are rapidly building infrastructure, educating thousands of our young talents at the best university in the world, bringing leading experts to Azerbaijan to teach us here, opening up new non-oil industries, foreign corporation are here, training our talent, enriching the knowledge, expertise base, plus, the oil money is used to make investments abroad such as buying gas companies in Europe, plus the oil extraction expertise turning us into world-players. One example: Azeri oil companies have won bids to explore new oil fields in the Mediterranean, etc. Plus, our strategic location will be useful in eventually transporting Central Asian oil across if we don’t have any left ourselves, etc, etc. You are delusional if you think Azerbaijan is doomed. Armenia will run out of Armenians before we run out of oil. Compare Azerbaijan’s progress to Armenia. While we are buying infrastructure companies in Europe, you are selling yours to Russia forever. We don’t need a war. All we have to do is to wait you out … 100 years more and we will have the entire Armenia (maybe paying off Russia with a few billions dollars like they did with Alaska and US). And we are helping you get there by suffocating you with a blockade with Turkey, and engaging an arms race with you, which you cannot afford without selling yourselves to Russia for protection, and without draining your social safety net. You might say, we Armenians have outlasted, survived much worse. Maybe. But you are a tiny fraction of what you say you used to be. So the trend is towards oblivion, or being absorbed into Russia as a province, which essentially is the same thing. So, go ahead, count our money with fancy charts, hoping it will run out soon. It is sad actually to watch this. Instead of envying Azerbaijan, why not work on building your own economy and independence. I find it peculiar how there is so little dissent in Armenia towards giving up so much of your independence to Russia. This is not something that a freedom-loving nation does but a nation used to living under others’ shadow. Azerbaijan is able to show the door to Russia (see the case of Gabala base) and even deal with Europe on equal terms. We are a patient people. No war is ok. Russia is still watching your back. But we are watching it too.

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   • The reply from Karim should not be dismissed by Armenians simply as an unfriendly rant. Of course, the language about the 100 years that Azerbaijan would supposedly wait to reclaim Karabakh, or the notion that Azerbaijan can pay Russian “a few billion dollars” is nonsensical. But the problem with corruption – Armenia’s No1 problem – saps Armenia’s energy and drains its potential, forcing Armenians to emigrate and make controversial decisions, like selling off the country’s infrastructure to Moscow. Armenians should think seriously about that. Dismissing Azerbaijanis simply as corrupt pumpkinheads surviving on a depleting oil resource will get Armenians nowhere. Azerbaijanis are Turks – nasty, envious, smart, and loaded with brutal pragmatism. Dismiss them not.

   • @Karim, your imaginations never seem to run out. You might want to consider a career in writing fiction. Let’s analyze your hallucinations. You say the oil money is used to make investments abroad. I totally agree with you on that in the sense that the investments made abroad with oil money are the palaces and real estates purchased for the Aliyev dynasty while 10% of the Azerbaijani population is still homeless living in box carts and railroad stations and an average Azerbaijani lives off of $30 per month salary. Your so-called investments abroad, other than enriching your draft-dodging coward president Aliyev, is spent to spread anti-Armenian propaganda and to bribe and buy favors for your fake nation and artificial country from unsuspecting foreign officials as well as accomplices. Two recent cases in point: The first, a $3 billion dollars worth of bribe money to have the spineless coward axe-murderer Ramil Safarov released from prison in Hungary and paraded in the streets of Baku as a “hero” in attempts to reignite anti-Armenian sentiments and to revive and falsely to pump up your permanently-shattered, defeated and humiliated souls. The second, a bogus investment and pay-offs in millions of dollars to Mexican officials to put up your spineless president’s deceased father’s statute in a Mexican park which was later taken down once the true anti-Armenian Azerbaijani lies and motives were revealed and exposed.

     One day you say all you need is three months to reoccupy the liberated ancient Armenian province of Artsakh, aka Karabakh, if only the Russians kept their nose out of it. The next day you say you don’t need to do anything but be patient and wait for Armenia to implode from within and just walk in and take what you want. Imagine how ridiculous the Armenians would sound if they said all they need is only three months to liberate the ancient Armenian province of Nakhichevan if Turkey minded her own business and Azerbaijan shut off her oil pipelines for that period. The artificial state of Azerbaijan is lucky she does not have you as her foreign policy advisor because, contrary to your delusions, Armenians are not only here to stay but they are militarily growing stronger year after year and are determined to reclaim the remaining occupied Armenian territories from both the artificial Azerbaijani state and the illegal fascist Turkish state. The liberation of Karabakh was just a start and no matter where Armenians live they are always willing and ready to help their homeland at any capacity including militarily. In case you forgot, it was not so long ago that, other than the fearless and fierce Karabakh Armenian mountain warriors, hundreds from the Armenian Diaspora volunteered and handed you a humiliating defeat and chased you back to your caves. The desperate Azerbaijanis, on the other hand, had to bribe and pay off North Caucasian terrorists, Turkish fascists, former Soviet pimps and filthy Afghan and other Muslim terrorists to fight the Armenians. We defeated you and the rest of the degenerate mercenaries you hired.

     You are beginning to sound like a broken record. You keep portraying the artificial state of Azerbaijan, a nothing more than an oil-depot for foreign exploitation, as an “independent” state and Armenia as anything but independent. At the risk of sounding repetitious, let me reiterate that independent states, such as Azerbaijan and falsely of course, take unilateral action to resolve issues with their adversaries instead of having their Turkish masters act as their spokesmen, not to mention blaming the Russians for some of their misfortune while never failing to sit with the Russian officials and listen to what they have to say like an obedient and scared little mouse.

     Honorable people in wars accept their defeat with dignity and perhaps work to resolve issues with their adversaries but dishonorable and delusional people with big hollow egos with an artificial country and an anti-Armenian and pan-Turkic agenda blame anyone but themselves for their misery and humiliation. For your information and according to military experts, a defeated nation requires at least three times the military power of her adversary to even begin to contemplate taking any action assuming, in your case, they can even remotely overcome the doubt and the skepticism instilled in them by the victor.

     Let’s face it, you don’t have what it takes to do what you have been so desperately and amusingly imagining because people with so much deeply-rooted racism and disdain for their adversary and billions in petrodollars, shooting their mouths off is the last thing they would do. I dont let my imaginations go wild like you do but if I did I would imagine the perfect scenario: The end and the ultimate division of the 95-year old artificial state of Azerbaijan between Armenia and Iran with several thousand years of statehood alone.

5. Hey Karim, you seem to be deeply disturbed by the above chart which shows how Azerbaijan’s supply of oil is decreasing on a yearly basis. It’s perfectly understandable for you to be so disturbed by this particular chart, because in ten to fifteen years, after Azerbaijan’s supply of oil is fully depleted, it will become totally functionless. In other words, in ten to fifteen years, Azerbaijan will become nothing more than a pair of used diapers.

   Hey Karim, what exactly do you mean, when you say that Azerbaijan is educating thousands of young talents? Since when have the Azeris ever been talented at anything? The only three things that the Azeris are talented in, is committing massacres against innocent civilians, engaging into sniper gunfire while hiding like cowards behind their doghouse, and chopping people up with axes while those particular people are asleep. Is this your definition of talent?

   Hey Karim, when you say that your Azerbaijan doesn’t need a war, you’re absolutely correct. After all, you are already aware by now, that if a war breaks out this very moment, the Armenian military forces will easily be able to knock out Azerbaijan’s oil and gas pipelines within two days, which would severely devastate the entire Azerbaijani economy. However, Azerbaijan’s other alternative of waiting it out, isn’t any more promising either. You need to remember that as each year passes by, Azerbaijan’s supply of oil goes downward, which therefore means that it ends up having less money to spend on purchasing newer military equipment. Either way you look at it, Azerbaijan is doomed.

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6. I’m more concerned about South Azerbaijan, who knows what will happen in a decade, but with Iranian Azeris awakening movement a decade from now will be a stronger Azerbaijan.

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7. I keep asking this and no one seems capable of answering it … If you are not afraid of Azerbaijan, why have you sold yourself to Russia for protection? If you are so confident of your own bravery, why do you need Ivan behind you?

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   • @Karim, and I have asked you several times that if you truly believe your artificial country is an independent state and that you genuinely believe we are afraid of you, then why is it that you keep having the three Turkish stooges in Ankara be the spokespersons for you and why is it that such overconfident Azeris have not taken any unilateral action against us? What are you waiting for, an invitation? We handed you a humiliating defeat and took your hearts away, that’s why.

     Like I said before, when all current and former Armenian presidents and ministers were fighting on the front lines as soldiers and commanders, your coward president Ilham Aliyev, at his ripe military age, was missing in action hiding behind his father’s skirt. He was watching his countrymen getting killed and chased away by Armenian heroes. He now, with his oil revenues and fake military uniform, has turned into a hawk with no claws. The Armenian leaders have been there and done that and know with experience what war is and what misery and devastation it brings to people in the region and that’s why they want peace and not because they are afraid of you big-mouth heartless and coward Turkish slaves.

     You should thank the Russians for their intervention, your coward leaders pleading for cease fire knowing the Armenians could reach Baku if they wanted and were not stopped, and thank the very same Armenian veterans who humiliated you 20 years for halting their advance and not putting an end to your existence for good.

     The Pseudo-Turkish Azeris should either quit posturing like double-talking cowards and put their petrodollars where their mouth is or shut the hell up because they are embarrassing themselves.

   • Karim have you heard the term talk is cheap? Although I would never trust a Azeri your bark is bigger then your bite! With all the money and all the weapons you buy and take bread away from your children you will never get Arstakh back sorry! You need to understand ARMENIA survived the Babalonians,Greeks,Romans,Persian,Monguls,Ottamans, I ask you who is Azerbaijan? A nation with a history shorter then COCA COLA! Get a life man do you think the Christian world even Iran will ever let a cocktail race like yours take Armenia?

8. No Karim,
   We are not afraid of Azerbeijan.Our armies are capable of taking care of an unexpected attack from latter.But for safety sake(rather to show the outer world that Russia is a protector of Armenia(actually it´s own Southern flank)the Caucasus-have in veiw the Chechnia a country that has long been a pain in the neck of Russia,then you have a better picture of Armenia or Russia there.
   Our basic question is the bigger brother-wrongly brought up to the height she stands now by some Western and (now Russia,whi instead of placing their stakes elsewhere…say..IRAN have indiscreetly done that in great Turkey.In result latter is getting too big for her boots so to say and needs some curbing ,no not by armenia or Armenians but so called allies….of her!!!!
   Time will come(not too far away9 when these allies will realize their error in choosing that country, as an ally,then Armenia , also another old ¨resident¨ there will arise to its glory.
   No hurry for that.We can await the circumstances that will prevail once great Turkey answers the Kurdish issue ,as well as some other internal ones.Now back to NK,Nagornyi Karabagh.Armenians worldwide, believe you me are backing up its independence and no power can really stop that unless a WWIII starts there.Which firstly the SEVEN SISTERS DO NOT WISH THAT TO HAPPEN(CAN YOU GUESS) WHO THESE ARE? maybe a few less,but then they were that many then a few yrs back.These are the ones that for their benefits will not let war occur,unless Alieve all of a sudden start it at a whim of his.But he won´t since his earnings will disappear in the Western establishments. Perhaps -best would be to come to a comprise and that´s exactly what I am suggesting up on top of your post,which has not been edited and is awaiting moderation.But I have disseminated that in other Sites etc.,so take care and wait.Or if you wish think hard for a compromise that also suits your people and ours.But do not ever think that we can live within ea other´s countries .Like Pakistan and India…hope you understand.

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9. You have to note that Azerbaijani government calculated the oil decrease too. And it was evident that oil boom will began to go down in 2015-2017 -ies. But the recent natural gas agreement (TAP project), and about 40 bln dollar investments in a row of projects shows that “dreamed” weakening of Azerbaijan is not near. And after Nursultan Nazarbaevs words about accepting Armenia into Customs union without Karabagh it is strange to warn armenian government to take future measures about possible risks. It is evident, that Armenia belongs to Russia, and Kremlin thinks about future of armenians, not Yerevan. The last shame with this EU/CU proved once again that Armenia issued a verdict to loose it,s sovereignty when occupied azerbaijani territories. And now the country, which occupied territories of other country, shares the destiny of Karabagh.

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10. Karim Khan,

    Do you know why Sultan Aliev Family prostitute themselves in Moscow and in European capitals??

    http://www.rferl.org/content/Aliyevs_Azerbaijani_Empire_Grows_As_Daughter_Joins_The_Game/2127137.html

    Aliev and Axerbaijani corrupted military is nothing for few thousand Armenian commandos to fix Axeri military and their dream pipe lines.

    Real problem is your half brother Turkey, who like to screw NATO against Armenia, where 24 fully loaded military bases have Turkish blessing and pose a threat against Armenian National Security!!kapitch!! And that will be solvable, when Iran neutralize Turkey’s threat after dealing with US and NATO… Axeri nightmares will start, when Iran claim fake Axerbaijani land as part of Iran’s Azerbaijan!!

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11. GB, do you really think Turkey would attack Armenia? Remember, it is part of NATO, and it would never do such a silly thing. For what? Just because there is a dispute over Genocide recognition?! It does not make sense. Turkey is no threat to Armenia. Azerbaijan is. And that is why you are scared and brought Ivan in.

    And you Armenians seem so proud of your military might because of the Karabak war. Can you please name me one battle that you won? You know, e.g., in World War II, they have Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, etc battles between two armies. There is no such military battle in the Karabak war! Instead, you basically attacked civilian cities like Kojali, massacred poorly protected civilians. After that, in the chaos of post-USSR disintegration, all the other Azeri towns fell like dominoes, without a battle, because civliians simply fled, seeing the Armenian barbarity and the ABCENSE of any functioning Azeri government to protect them. Whatever military force the Azeris had was dedicated to protecting the civilians while they fled.

    In fact, actually, there was later a military battle in the true sense of this word, when the Azeri commander Suret Huseynov cleaned up nearly half of Karabak in a matter of weeks. But then, the political chaos in Baku made him head to Baku. But before they did that his brave commandos help your hero Melkonian duely become a martyr.

    But all this is now ancient history. The current situation is … de facto, you are so scared of Azerbaijan that you have sold yorself to Putin. This is a fact, stated by your own leadership.

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12. The article is bit delusional, but the commentary is interesting. I am Azerbaijani, but I do not share Karim’s optimism about the country’s prospects. This is a very critical time for Azerbaijan to invest in infrastructure (and I don’t mean rebuilding the same bridge 5 times) and education and other industries. There is an illusion of that happening (or may be it is happening to some extent), but not nearly enough to have a sustainable growth path after oil and gas reserves are out. Instead, someone’s wallets are getting fatter and fatter. It is sad to see both Azerbaijan and Armenia ruled by such corrupt governments, one is tying its future to finite fossil fuels, the other is on life support from Russia. A lot of things will change in 100 years, but one thing will not: Azerbaijan and Armenia will still be next to each other, in some shape or form. So we better learn how to live together. Another thing that will not change is that both countries will still be in Russia’s backyard, where Russia manipulates everything (and yes it may have less influence over Azerbaijan, but it still can get its way, unfortunately).
    Let’s face it, a lot Armenians got displaced from Azerbaijan, and a lot of Azerbaijanis got displaced from Armenia. Those bridges are probably burnt. Anyone who thinks that Armenians are the only victims in this conflict is delusional. My father was born and grew up in Armenia in a region that had been heavily populated by Azerbaijani people for hundreds of years. All his extended family got kicked out from Armenia a while ago leaving behind everything including their ancestors graves. I’m sure there are a lot of similar stories that Armenians can tell. On the other hand, there are also many Azeris and Armenians who lived in Karabakh for centuries, and it is their right to continue living there in peace. And I think this part of the puzzle might be salvageable. And the only way to achieve that is for both countries to move towards democratic societies that respect human rights, the rights of their citizens and the rights of minorities. Unfortunately, both countries are moving in the wrong direction (Georgia is trying). I know this is naive, but I really want to believe that at some point in future there will be peace in the region. This conflict (as many others) will not end as an overwhelming victory for either side, compromises will have to be made. Both countries will need true visionary leaders to achieve that.

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13. Hey Karim, exactly which Ivan are you referring to? Are you referring to Ivan Lendl, the legendary tennis player? Or, are you referring to Ivan Drago, the legendary boxer from the movie, Rocky 4? Anyway, what do either of these guys have to do with what we’re talking about here?

    Since you brought up the subject of bravery, I will provide you with the most perfect example of this. The definition of bravery is exactly what the Artsakh Armenians did to Azerbaijan, during the 1991-1994 war. Despite the fact that the Azeris possessed so many more military weapons in that particular war, as compared to their opponent, the Armenians still managed to deliver a brutal beating to the Azeris, in which they liberated the Armenian territory of Artsakh, and in the process, also managed to capture several other additional territories as well. Now that’s the definition of bravery! In terms of being afraid, it’s Azerbaijan’s coward terrorist leader who’s afraid. On a daily and nightly basis, he persistently states that he’s going to conquer Artsakh and attach it to Azerbaijan. But yet, this whole entire time, he hasn’t once attempted to send his soldiers across the border. What does this show? This shows that Azerbaijan’s terrorist leader is truly frightened to engage into an all out war with the Armenians. As for Russia, I already told you before that they have nothing to do with defending Artsakh, from a possible Azerbaijani attack. The Artsakh Defense Army, which is composed entirely of Armenians, is the protector of Artsakh. Russia’s military base isn’t even on the soil of Artsakh. It’s on the soil of Armenia. And, its job is to help defend Armenia, in case of an attack by Turkey.

    Hey Harvan, what seems to be your concern in regard to South Azerbaijan? This particular territory that you call,”South Azerbaijan”, in reality, constitutes northwestern Iran. And truthfully speaking, the ten million Azeris who live in the northwest region of Iran, as a whole, have no interest whatsoever in attempting to unite with Azerbaijan. As a matter of fact, these people culturally, share a lot more with Iranians, than they do with the people of Azerbaijan. The only problem is that Iran’s ethnic Azeris have no right of education in their ancestral language, Turkish. However, this problem affects all of Iran’s minorities. And surprisingly, the majority of Iran’s Azeris, as well as its other minorities, do not seem to care much about this particular inequality. What they care more about is improving Iran’s domestic situation.

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14. Ararat, when you say your current leaders were war heros fighting on the frontlines, can you please name me one big battle or a small one that they fought in the common sense of a battle? Or you are referring to Sarkissian participating in the Khojali massacre of fleeing civilians? According to Thomas de Waal, he admitted doing this intentionally to scare off Azeri civilians from other cities.

    You ask why we are not taking action now? Is your reading comprehension skills that poor? Wasn’t the whole point of my post the fact that you have signed a military pact with Russia? We Azeris saw what Russia did to Georgia. So, we are afraid of Russia, not you. And you are afraid of us. Why else, please enlighten me, have you sold yourselves to Russia for protection?

    And it is Armenia that is a fake country. A country with no control over its borders, its infrastructure, its foreign policy … that is a fake country, my friend, not Azerbaijan.

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    • @Karim, I’m convinced you don’t even read what you write. You just let your emotions, imaginations and irrational and twisted logic do the talking and that is very typical of a defeated nation who can’t get over its humiliation and will make up and fabricate all sorts of imaginary stories to convince itself of its delusional infallibility.

      All countries around the world have strategic military pacts with other countries based on their security needs. Why should Armenia be any different? I find it rather preposterous that you think if Armenians strategize and make such pacts with their centuries-old ally Russia to secure their country it is because they are afraid of you. Come on who are you kidding, this mentality of yours has nothing to do with your false claims and instead it speaks volumes about the Azerbaijanis, their rotten character and their shattered state of mind who are unable to deal with their defeat and stomach their humiliation and specially by a foe they feel superior to. It is like, and with racist agenda, you people think so little of us that when we put you in your place and make you look like nothing you will resort to all sorts of nonsense to make yourselves believe you were fighting some aliens because being defeated by Armenians is unthinkable for you. Well no matter how you try to spin it, the facts are that you did fight us and that we did defeat you.

      You are so filled with delusions due to your hate, bias and desperation that in your imaginary world you believe the fact that Armenia has a military pact with Russia is because it is afraid of insignificant Azerbaijani artificial state, a nothing more than an oil-depot for the foreigners to exploit. Using your twisted logic, I can also say you have military pact with Turkey because you are afraid of the Armenians. I can further assert and confirm my point, and discredit your claims, that it is the Azeris who are afraid of the Armenians because they not only and miserably lost the aggressive war they started but they pleaded and begged for a cease fire to save their fake nation from further humiliation and total destruction.

      Furthermore, what would you think if I said your pretentious Turkish masters, who never miss the opportunity to act as spokesmen for and claim to be the defenders of the so-called Muslim World, ran to their Muslim-hating NATO masters to help protect them against the little war-torn Muslim Syria and that they are still part of this Muslim-hating NATO alliance because they are afraid of being destroyed and dissolved by the Kurds, the Greeks and the Armenians if they ever leave this military alliance? They have been a NATO member, a Muslim one too wink wink, for decades and for many more decades to come. That’s a much longer alliance than the one between Armenia and Russia. How come you don’t mention that as an example and instead cherry pick your words based your agenda and bias in order to put down the Armenians? Because it is all about that psychology of defeat and delusion I keep telling you about.

      Your obsession to never miss the opportunity to include the Russians in any Armenian accomplishment is comical and reveals your delusional state of mind. To insignificant and fabricated Azerbaijani nation, the Russians are like a verbal tick they can’t get rid of when speaking about the Armenians. How many Russians fighting for the Armenians did the Azerbaijani military kill or capture in the Karabakh liberation war? I let you noodle on that for a while. The Armenians killed and captured so many paid mercenaries fighting for Azerbaijan from the former Soviet republics as well as from the Northern Caucasus, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan and many other Muslim nations. Despite all that rock solid evidence, it is embarrassing that you can still talk with a straight face with you relentless nonsense about the Armenians. Yes of course the Armenians got arms from Russia but, unlike the dishonorable Azeris, the Armenians did their own fighting and took real good care of coward Azeris and their lucratively-compensated mercenaries most of whom are now rotting in hell or in heaven with their 72 virgins, depending on your point of view.

      There was a major collaboration between the Azeris and the Soviets earlier on in the war to “teach” the Armenians a lesson. The Armenian liberation war, in essence, was not only against Azerbaijan but it was also a challenge to the decades-old and iron-fisted Soviet authority. According to a veteran Karabakh Armenian fedayi fighter, the Armenians lost around 7,000 fighters while the Azeris lost 35,000 not counting the number of wounded. Also according to him, the Soviet soldiers would move into the Armenian villages during the day, arrest and take away the able-bodied men with very little or no resistance because they were not fighting the Soviets, and turned them over to the Azeris. Then at nightfall the coward Azeris would move in and destroy and depopulate the villages from defenseless Armenians left behind. Once the Armenians learned of this cowardly tactic, they would keep themselves out of sight in the woods and away from the Russians during the day and then they would come out of the woods at night to trap the coward Azeris and send them to hell where they belonged.

      As for an example of a heroic and a decisive battle by the Armenian leaders you asked for, let me remind you of the battle to liberate the ancient Armenian town of Shushi from the Azeris who not only used a sacred Armenian church as a warehouse to store their massive weapons but they also used this strategic hill town and locality overlooking the current capital city of Stepanakert to shell relentlessly the innocent civilians on daily basis, killing them and destroying their lives and livelihoods. The khojali incident is the biggest Azeri fabrication of the conflict. Many of the civilians in this town had already left and the rest were given plenty of time by the Armenian fighters to leave safely before they moved in and decimated the Azeri fighters. The Azeris, the anti-Mutalibov Popular Front, deliberately delayed their safe departure and instead used them as human shields. They hit two birds with one stone: They discredited the Ayaz Mutalibov’s government, which they plotted against and brought down, for being unable to protect its civilians, and blaming the Armenians for it. Even the Azeri dethroned president Mutalibov himself confirmed the plot against him and blamed the disaster on the Popular Front. An Azeri journalist wanting to expose the truth about this scheme by the Popular Front was killed as well.

      Armenia has some challenges to overcome but it is NOT a fake country. Unlike the 95-year old artificial state of Azerbaijan, invented by its genocidal Turkish masters as part of their failed pan-Turanic empire and at the expense of the destruction of the Armenian homeland, Armenia is an ancient nation state of thousands of years with tumultuous past and all that due to the Turkish nomads from Mongolia and Northern China as well as their Azeri slave accomplices.

15. Javanshir, glad to see another Azeri here. Just one note abotu your optimism regarding Armenia-Azeri relations and peace. I wish I had your optimism, but I cannot. Azeris and Armenians are now blood enemies. You are one of those silly Azeris who pride themselves in being able to transcend divisions, etc., to feel superior to the rest of us. Reality is different. You forget an important fact, for example. The Armenian Genocide. These guys hold Turkey responsible for it, and by extension, hate us Azeris too (for some strange reason). Also, they are drunk on self-serving interpretations of history in which Azeris are a fake nation (just see a note above). Unfortunately, I don’t think there will ever be a stable peace between us. Only Russians could stop us from killing each other in 1920s, and then now. Ironically, Russia is responsible for saving many deaths in the future. So my feelings for Russia are a bit mixed. And I wouldn’t consider it granted that Russia will ALWAYS be a player in South Caucasus. The upcoming war in Iran could reshuffle the deck, for example, or a big problem in Russia could make them become more isolationist like America. I think Putin is a create of the old era, a wanna-be Peter the Great. The next Russia leader might ask himself, why do I care about south Caucasus?

    But … I will pause here, and will let my Armenian friends here teach you a lesson in reality. So in the meantime, don’t you walk around with watermellons under your arms (as the saying goes), thinking of yourself as a noble soul able to see both sides of the picture. You are a naive, and very dangerous to Azerbaijan. It is because of people like you that Azerbaijan had lowered its guard in relation to Armenia — to its great peril in 1980s. They came to the game much more prepared than us, the idiots who were still singing in ours schools songs about Armenian-Azeri friendship. Do you remember it … “Azerbaijan, Hayastan, gardash olub … etc, etc.”

    Reply

    • (Kerim // March 23, 2013 at 11:05 pm //)
      {“I must say though that I hate Armenians now much more than I did before reading AW.”}

      Kerim/Karim admitting that he _hated_ Armenians even before he started visiting us @AW. Apparently his exchanges of philosophical musings with Armenian posters resulted in him hating Armenians much more. (yours truly was most likely responsible for a healthy percentage of the ‘Hate Inflation’).

      “These guys hold Turkey responsible for it,..”

      No kidding: who do you think is responsible for murdering about 2 million of our Armenian civilians (1895-1923), the Klingons ?

    • This is your answer …

      While Axeri tatar Turks waiting for Hitler troops, Axeri-Tatar soldiers serving in Soviet kitchens and peeling potatoes, Armenia was in front fighting against Nazis!!

      Sources from Wikipedia…

      Armenia participated in the Second World War on the side of the Allies under the Soviet Union.

      Members of the Tamanyan Division marching under Brandenburg Gate after the fall of Berlin in May 1945.
      Armenia was spared the devastation and destruction that wrought most of the western Soviet Union during the Great Patriotic War of World War II. The Nazis never reached the South Caucasus, which they intended to do in order to capture the oil fields in Azerbaijan. Still, Armenia played a valuable role in aiding the allies both through industry and agriculture. An estimated 300–500,000 Armenians served in the war, almost half of whom did not return.[14] Armenia thus had one the highest death toll, per capita, among the other Soviet republics…..

      One hundred and nineteen Armenians were awarded with the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union.[15] Many Armenians who were living in the areas occupied regions of the Soviet Union also formed partisan groups to combat the Germans.[16] Over sixty Armenians were promoted to the rank of general, and with an additional four eventually achieving the rank of Marshal of the Soviet Union: Hovhannes Bagramyan (the first non-Slavic commander to hold the position of front commander when he was assigned to be the commander of the First Baltic Front in 1943), Admiral Ivan Isakov, Hamazasp Babadzhanian, and Sergei Khudyakov.[16] The soviet aircraft designer Artem Mikoyan was also an Armenian. The 89th Tamanyan Division, composed of ethnic Armenians, distinguished itself during the war. It fought in the Battle of Berlin and entered Berlin.[17]

      http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/18143-Armenian-Admirals-Marshalls-Generals-Heroes-in-the-Soviet-Army-during-WWII

      And before that we were against mighty Ottoman Turkey!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sardarabad

      Now you tell me when was last time Axeris won a battle against Armenians??

      Karim Khan, you like to shoot sh** like your Sultan…. he will go down to drain same with his fake followers!!You hate Armenians with the size of your Sultan nose and wealth, and Ramil Safarov AXE!!

    • Azerbaijan sent more soldiers to fight in WWII than Armenia did. More Azeri citizens were recognized as “Hero of the Soviet Union”. More Azeris died than Armenians in WWII. Must have been some really tough potatoes. But I guess if you claim squatters rights over every land Armenians ever lived on, Azerbaijan is eastern Armenia so there’s that.

    • Exposed – lies posted by RVDV on December 30, 2013 at 12:28 am:

      Lie #1: “Azerbaijan sent more soldiers to fight in WWII than Armenia did”

      Not proportionally to the total population. And MANY of the soldiers Azerbaijan sent were NOT Azeri Turks. You guessed it – Azerbaijan was fulfilling its quota by sending ethnic Armenians, Lezgy, Tolysh and other minorities to die. At the same time, the Great Sultan baba Heidar Rzu-ogly Aliyev forged his birth certificate to avoid draft. Just like his son Ilham baba was hiding in Turkish casinos while his daddy was sending his son’s peers to die in Artsakh.

      Lie # 2: “More Azeri citizens were recognized as “Hero of the Soviet Union”

      Azeri citizenship did not exist at that time. All Soviet people had Soviet citizenship. This lie is carefully crafted to hide the fact that they were NOT ethnic Azeri Turks. Why did they have last names ending with -yan? There is a reason the “Heroes of the Soviet Union” who are claimed to be “Azeri citizens” were not listed in this post…

      Lie #3: “More Azeris died than Armenians in WWII”

      Again, nothing changed in the Sultanate – even now Azeri Turk regime enforces laws that allow them to disproportionately draft ethnic minorities of Lezgy, Avar, Udin, Tolysh, Tat, etc. youth and send them to the border with Artsakh. This way Azeri Turks kill two birds with one stone – get rid of their remaining ethnic minorities who are forced to attack Armenians. Very smart. Until the native peoples of the land realize that the Kurdish clan of Aliyevs and their Azeri Turk base are too weak to continue the occupation.

16. Karim khan said,

    “I keep asking this and no one seems capable of answering it … If you are not afraid of Azerbaijan, why have you sold yourself to Russia for protection”

    Did you read my answer?? It is way up there waiting for you!!

    Either you are blind, or well paid by your master, and act like a lost person in an African jungle …The entire Tatar turk population including Daghestan and Chechnia and all Muslim population of South and North Caucasus have last name of EV or YEV except Armenians and Georgians.

    Karim, if you know the Right answer here in AW, then I will consider, that Russification of your ancestors was wrong!! you ignore the reality of your people, where your ancestors were part of Persian Empire and proud Aterpatekanis of Iran.

    During invasion of Turkic tribes from Central Asian steps, they separate Aghvani, Talysh, noble people from Iran’s Aterpatekan and change your mother tongue from Indo-European languages to Turkish and made you part of proud Agh Ghoyunghloos and Ghara Ghoyungloos dynasty.

    During the reign of Lenin and Stalin, all of sudden you became YEV and EV, and because of that Armenia’s Nakhichevan and Artsakh became part of newly crowned Bolshevik republic properties..

    Today Armenia is a partner with Russia like the way Israelis are with US, due to Turkey unfriendly approach toward Armenians….Russia don’t care for Axeri borders….Turkey has 24 NATO bases…read my above note for your information and for your future communication!!

    Reply

17. Karim,
    Are you so desperate that now you’re going to create additional false information, and state that President Sargsyan massacred fleeing Azeri civilians in Khojaly? Don’t you think that’s absurd? I’m glad that you’ve brought up the subject of the Khojaly massacre, in which 161 Azeri civilians were murdered in that village, back during the 1991-1994 Artsakh War. It was about time for you to bring up this subject. It is true that there is evidence to suggest that Armenian soldiers committed this massacre, however, were you aware that there is also quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the Azerbaijani side committed this massacre against their own people? In one of his past interviews, former Azerbaijani president, Ayaz Mutalibov, stated that the Khojaly massacre was committed by Azeri militants, who organized this event in order to force his resignation. Other stories contain evidence that there were a number of armed people among the fleeing Azeri civilians who fired at the Armenian soldiers, and were therefore fired back upon. And then, there is the story of the Azeri journalist, Eynulla Fatullayev, who has stated on numerous occasions that according to his discoveries, the Azeri soldiers were responsible for the 1992 killings in Khojaly, and added that the Azeri government has persistently attempted to use the Khojaly events to persecute its opponents, like the first president, Ayaz Mutalibov, as well as other people. As a matter of fact, Mutalibov is still under criminal investigation for complicity in the Khojaly massacre. Another extremely important detail in all of this, is that following the seizure of Khojaly, the Armenian soldiers actually allowed the Azerbaijanis to claim their dead. Don’t you think that’s bizarre? If the Armenians actually committed that particular massacre, then why on earth, would they permit the Azeris to claim their dead? That makes no sense.

    Since we’re on the subject of massacres, why don’t we talk about some of the massacres committed by Azerbaijanis against Armenians, such as the Sumgait, Kirovabad, and Baku massacres, between 1988-1990? What about the massacre in the Armenian village of Maragha, during the Artsakh War? What about the massacre of thirty thousand Armenians in the city of Baku, in 1918, which was committed by a combination of Azeri and Turkish soldiers?

    Hey Karim, since your reading comprehension is so extremely poor, let me again remind you that Russia is not involved in defending the Republic of Artsakh. It’s the Artsakh Defense Army, composed entirely of Armenians, who is the protector of Artsakh. Russia’s job is to help defend the Republic of Armenia, in case of an attack by Turkey. Hey Karim, why don’t we talk about the military pact between Turkey and Azerbaijan? Without Turkey’s defense, the Armenian military will easily liberate the Armenian territory of Nakhichevan, and in the process, force out all of the Azeri inhabitants from that particular land. The coward terrorist leader of Azerbaijan, likes to put on a dog show for everyone, by persistently saying that he’s going to conquer Artsakh, and attach it to his miserable country. But yet, in this whole entire period of time, he hasn’t once attempted to send his soldiers across the border. What does this show? This shows that the Azeris are truly frightened to engage into an all out war with the Armenians.

    Reply

    • “the Khojaly massacre, in which 161 Azeri civilians were murdered in that village, back during the 1991-1994 Artsakh War.”

      Please do not repeat Azeri Turk lies that they carefully insert in half truth posts. There was NO massacre IN Khojalu (now Ivanyan) – Azeri Turk invaders who ran away from Khojalu died near Agdam, a town that had 30,000+ Azeri troops at that time.

      All Azeri Turk myths about Khojalu (including Tomas De Waal’s fabricated quote) are exposed on this site: http://www.xocali.net/EN/index.html – read it before you post anything about Khojalu

18. Hey Karim,
    You know as an armenian I was so happy to win the war against the Azeri occupation of artsakh , what you call “karabakh” which is not the right name of the region. Anyways , I was so happy you can’t imagine , and if ever Azerbaijan decides to wage a war against artsakh or Armenia , I am ready to participate against u as an armenian from the diaspora. Now I was happier to see Haidar aliyev was succeeded by ilham aliyev. Karim , all the petrolium reserves of the arab world were not able to destroy Israel, which is an artificial country, do you think your artificial country with 0.01 per cent of the arab worlds reserve will end armenia? We are a people who struggled to keep our language heritage religion and culture and lands against ur nomads , and with bitter experiences we were able to survive . So , Karim efendi, u know the truth, without armenian brains you do not have an industry, you have a family reigning , we have democracy , though not mature enough, you are faux Sparta we are Athena with an ideology , you have the Turkic deserts , we have no place to go . So please dare to attack us . I just wish armenians cling to democracy and solve their problems inside parliament and not on the streets. Whoever is the armenian president now or in the future , as long as he or she is elected we are with him till death. The dignity of the armenian nation is above all. As of our alliance with Russia today , that is our choice ,so don’t think about it so much , because it may disturb your sleep. We are allies with everybody who brings our interests forthright. Armenians , stick to democracy, it is our way out. Armenians stick to our army and our economy , our tourism , our land , because it is our future , believe in Armenia because it is our salvation.

    Reply

19. RVDV,

    You, as a Turk better be quiet in this forum and don’t give your personal Turkic style fake brotherly advise to your Axeri brothers, because Turkey never involved in 2-nd World War..

    From 1.5 Armenian population of that time (ww2) 300.000 never returned, while Turkey’s “mighty” army hiding in their harems and secretly siding Nazis and Muslim Brotherhood …after Hitler lost the war, all of sudden you guys became American worshipers…this is how you Turkic race operated for a 1000 years since your ancestors invaded Asia Minor, or better say Western Armenia!!You will never be able hide the truth and rewrite history in Turkish way!!

    Have some fun and read about real truth, where your fake leaders kept all of you in dark, for 100 years, where they add penal code 301 to make you guys as stupid as you were, and jail most Turkish intellectuals, for their own pocket and wealth and corruption!!

    http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/arafat_en.html

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/armenian-genocide-jihad-in-turkey/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

    Reply

    • “after Hitler lost the war, all of sudden you guys became American worshipers…this is how you Turkic race operated for a 1000 years ”

      After Hitler lost the war our options were American sphere of influence or Soviet sphere of influence. To simplify it: America OR the Mortal Enemy of the Turkish Nation. To join no side simply meant delayed Soviet invasion. Yeah.. no. Sorry we’re not idiots and had the foresight to see that.

20. {“But I guess if you claim squatters rights over every land Armenians ever lived on, Azerbaijan is eastern Armenia so there’s that.”}
    (RVDV // December 30, 2013 at 12:28 am //)

    RVDV: what do you exactly mean by “…squatters rights over every land Armenians ever lived on” ?

    Are you calling Armenians squatters ?

    Reply

    • RVDV:

      {“More Azeri citizens were recognized as “Hero of the Soviet Union”.”}

      Can you also please provide the numbers of ‘Hero of USSR’ awarded to residents (not citizens) of Armenia SSR and Azerbaijan SSR for WW2.

    • 130 Azeri residents to 119 Armenian residents as “Hero of the USSR”
      More Azeri residents died than Armenians in the war. Not sure about the populations at the time or the ethnic background of the recipients/combatants (As many Armenians lived in Azerbaijan and vice versa), was simply bringing facts to an anti-Azeri disinformation tirade.

      As for your first point, no, I am not calling Armenians squatters. I just find the logic of your land claims to be strange. Yes, you were here first, you lived on those lands first, we came much later. Ok. But the rhetoric I hear is that Turks, Azeris, Georgians all ‘occupy’ and have ‘stolen’ parts of your claimed homeland. The issue just isn’t that black and white. I also still don’t understand how we stole western Armenia during the genocide. How exactly could the Ottoman Empire steal land that was already under Ottoman sovereignty? It wasn’t a foreign genocide, the Ottoman government committed genocide against its own citizens. No offense, but I find it opportunistic and cynical to use the Armenian genocide in attempts to reclaim your homeland. And those who say that recognition and apology are unimportant so long as you get western Armenia back deserve neither.

    • How many of the “Azeri residents” were Azeri Turks? How many of them were ethnic Armenians? I know at least two famous ones:

      1. General Bagramyan who achieved the highest military rank in Soviet Army and was the Commander of Soviet troops during the Caribbean crisis. Two gold stars.

      2. General Babadjanyan, Commander of the Soviet Armored forces.

      Both were born in the Armenian village of Chardakhly which is currently under Azeri Turk occupation, renamed and with all memories of the native Armenian population there erased. They are counted by Azeri Turk propaganda machine as “Azeri residents” too.

21. Voskanapat,
    how can you possibly accuse me of repeating Azeri Turk lies? Just because I happened to state that there’s evidence which suggests the possibility of Armenian soldiers participating in the massacre of 161 Azeri civilians, near the town of Khojaly, during the Artsakh War, means that I’m repeating Azeri Turk lies? This just comes to show how extremely narrow minded you are. If you’ve had the opportunity to read my posts up to now, you will observe that I view Azerbaijan and Turkey as enemies. Anyway, by now, after almost 22 years, there is no doubt that at least 161 Azeri civilians were murdered near the town of Khojaly, back on February 25th, 1992. However, what remains a mystery up to now, is exactly how these civilians were murdered. On one hand, there is evidence which suggests the possibility of Armenian soldiers murdering these civilians in the form of a massacre. On the second hand, there is evidence which suggests the possibility of armed Azeri soldiers being within the crowd of fleeing Azeri civilians who happened to shoot at the Armenian soldiers, and therefore, the Armenian soldiers ended up firing back, killing both soldiers and civilians alike. If that was truly the case, then the Armenian soldiers were definitely justified in firing back, and therefore, what transpired in Khojaly, did not constitute a massacre. And finally, on the third hand, there is also evidence which suggests the possibility of Azerbaijani militants committing a massacre on their own civilians during their escape through the corridor, as a ploy to denigrate former President Mutalibov’s government and force his resignation. All of this information, I have found in many sources, and not a single one of these sources happened to be Azeri or Turkish. As a matter of fact, you can find this information over on, http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/khojaly_massacre. And let me also add, that this is an Armenian site.

    Reply

    • “Yerevanian” wrote: “As a matter of fact, you can find this information over on, http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/khojaly_massacre. And let me also add, that this is an Armenian site”

      This is not “an Armenian site” – this is a copy of a Wikipedia article that is heavily infested with Azeri propaganda lies that were exposed multiple times. See http://xocali.net/AZ/index.html for details.

      There is a difference between saying “near the town of” Khojalu (btw pls learn Armenian spelling of Armenian towns when posting on this Armenian site;) and telling the truth about the exact location where the bodies were first found. Hint: the bodies were originally found on the outskirts of Akna (formerly called Agdam by the Azeri Turk occupiers) where 30,000+ Azeri Turk askers were stationed at that time. This is withing a shooting distance from the Azeri positions and miles away from any Armenian positions or troops.

22. What I fear when Azerbaijan runs out of oil is that the anti-Armenian polemics will begin, leading to more persecution, discrimination, and “Othering” and demonizing the Armenians.

    Reply

    • How would they persecute and discriminate? I think at that point the more likely scenario is of persecution and discrimination of the remaining ethnic minorities of Azerbaijan.

      And the likely outcome of that is the dissolution of the artificially created Sultanate with a name stolen from a neighboring Iranian province.

      One day Lezgi, Avar, Tolysh, Tat, Udin and other peoples of Azerbaijan will realize that together they are the majority of their country and the nomad Azeri Turks and their Kurdish ruling clan of Aliyevs are weak and coward. This will be the end of Azerbaijan. Armenians have nothing against our neighbors to the East who are natives of their lands and lived side by side with us for millennia.

23. A kind suggestion to those who voice bellicose ideas here.Easy Easy does it.Things cannot be judged(in this case)relying on the past experiences that the Caucasian Region in extension Western Armenia(so called Anatolia) have gone through.
    1.Armenia has risen from ashes of the Genocide perpetrated on us Armenians by great Turkey(then Ottoman and Ataturk Turkey) has a very strong Diaspora.Believe me it would not be eashy for Axerbaijan to claim back territories(read ancestral lands) liberated by Armenians.They should concentrate on their country as an oil producing one like Saudi arabia, Kuwait etc. and forget about l a n d s that were not theirs in the first place. To say the opposite is easy, but to no avail….(which,the oil industry also was the Armenians who initiated it there.Please look it up in Wikipedia the Aramyants and Mantashian families ,later the Gulbenkians etc.).War!!!! not really, the Region is subject to the Seven sisters jurisdiction ()now probably 3/4 sisters, the Oil producing Super giants….they ,plus great Turkey that receives easy Transit duty for passage of same will not WISH THAT to happen- Forget the past go enjoy your income from these until such time as…running out of it.Instead of wasting your times here, better attend to your families, country etc.We armenians are determined to LIVE ON FREE AND INDEPENMDENT ON OUR LAND(S)….

    Reply

24. Yes RVDV, most Tatar-Turks and Axeris got award, for making good Russian style Borsh for Soviet army, where fighters needed energy to fight against invading Nazis, while Axeris and entire Muslim population of South and North Caucasus waiting for Amin Al Husseini Hitler’s faithful servant to carry on the 2-nd Genocide against Armenian nation..

    http://www.topix.com/forum/world/armenia/T61CLBRGEES2CL7JM

    Reply

25. RVDV,
    The numbers you’ve provided are actually almost accurate. The exact number of residents from Azerbaijan who were awarded,”Hero of the USSR”, during the second world war, is 128. The exact number of residents from Armenia who were awarded as “Hero of the USSR”, is 117. However, out of all the residents, the exact number of Armenians from Armenia who were awarded as “hero”, is 113. The exact number of Azeris from Azerbaijan who were awarded as “hero”, is 91.

    In terms of Western Armenia, it’s perfectly understandable that you don’t understand how this region was stolen by the Turks. After all, your Turkish government has invested an enormous amount of effort in making sure that the history of Western Armenia, as well as the history of the Armenian Genocide, are to not be taught in Turkish schools, such as the one you attended in Istanbul. Anyway, for your own education, the whole entire land of Anatolia happens to be a stolen land, which your Turkish forefathers stole away from the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians, following the genocides they committed against these three peoples. And for your own education, the Christian inhabitants of the Ottoman Terrorist Empire, were never treated as citizens. From the very beginning of the Ottoman Terrorist Empire, back in 1453, the Christian inhabitants were subjected to extremely oppressive social and political rules. They had no legal rights under the rule of the Muslim Ottoman Empire. The amount of theft and extortion, as well as rape of Armenian and Greek women, placed the Armenians and Greeks in the most extreme danger. Nothing that belonged to a Christian was ever safe under the rule of the Muslim Ottoman Empire. Like the other Christians, Armenians were forced to pay all kinds of harsh taxes. They were persistently oppressed by a system of government which disallowed them to live freely, earn a living, and enjoy a feeling of security to life and property. The existence of an Armenian, Greek, or Assyrian in the Ottoman Terrorist Empire, automatically subjected him or her to brutal violence and extreme discrimination. And all of this horrible abuse, went on for almost five hundred years. Under the rule of the Ottoman Terrorist Empire, the mechanism of business and industry was placed in the hands of the persecuted peoples, such as the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. The Ottoman Turks knew very little about art or science. They had very few educational institutions, and illiteracy was the prevailing rule among the Ottoman Turks. In that kind of a backward and savage culture, a Christian such as an Armenian, Greek, or Assyrian, was forever vulnerable to the violence of any Turk. And for almost five hundred years, these Turks lived like parasites upon the overburdened and industrious Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian peoples. They taxed them to economic extinction, raped their women, committed genocides against them, stole their properties, and then proceeded to steal their lands. This is how the Turkish culture developed into what it is today.

    In terms of the Armenian people reclaiming their homeland of Western Armenia, I’m most confident that it will happen. But, of course, all of this will take time. The Treaty of Sevres, and specifically Wilsonian Armenia, grants us Armenians the right to attach the Western Armenian provinces of Erzurum, Bitlis, Van, and Trebizond, to the Republic of Armenia. As I’ve mentioned before, a legal team has already been selected by the Armenian government to pursue a lawsuit against Turkey for its role in committing the Armenian Genocide. So, sometime in the near future, the Armenian Genocide lawsuit against Turkey, will end up in court, either in the European Court of Human Rights, or the International Court of Justice, or perhaps a combination of both. And, just in case things end up not going our way in court, don’t forget about those twenty million unhappy Kurds in the southeast region of Turkey, who are making noise about their desire for independence. As soon as they revolt, they will easily break off that whole entire region from Turkey. And once they do that, it will be very easy for the Kurdified Armenians of northeastern Turkey to break off that region and unite it with the Republic of Armenia. Hey, the Islamic Crescent Terrorist nation of Turkey is going to get hit on the head so hard, that it will end up being reduced to no more than a featherless little turkey, running around in circles without a head on its shoulders.

    Reply

    • In order to not write an essay here, I will only say this about Ottoman history. I think your beliefs about the entirety of the history of the Ottoman Empire are, understandably, a little unfair. The weaker the empire got the more paranoid the leadership became. They regarded Anatolia as the heartland of the empire, and therefore a place that must be held on to by any means necessary. When the Empire was growing, reached its apex, and had retained most of that power really until the end of the 17th century, minority life certainly was no where near as bad as you described. It may not has been good by 21st century standards, but in the times of mass slavery, the reconquista, persecution of protestants reaching the point where they fled for the new world, were Ottomans minorities worse off? I’d say no. This is a problem I see when people describe Ottoman history as you do. You cannot take the Armenian genocide and the decades directly before it (Hamidian massacres/maybe partial genocide: 1894-96, Adana 1909) and apply the events of these eras retrospectively to the whole of the Ottoman Empire.

      Here’s an example: “Suleiman gave particular attention to the plight of the rayas, Christian subjects who worked the land of the Sipahis. His Kanune Raya, or “Code of the Rayas”, reformed the law governing levies and taxes to be paid by the rayas, raising their status above serfdom to the extent that Christian serfs WOULD MIGRATE TO Turkish territories to BENEFIT from the reforms. The Sultan also played a role in protecting the Jewish subjects of his empire for centuries to come. In late 1553 or 1554, on the suggestion of his favorite doctor and dentist, the Spanish Jew Moses Hamon, the Sultan issued a firman (فرمان) formally denouncing blood libels against the Jews.”

      Now Suleiman the Magnificent was of course a 16th century ruler, but you said social and political conditions were oppressive and unbearable since 1453. That simply is not true. It DID get to a point where what you said is absolutely true. But not for a long, long time.

    • To address a final few points.
      “…which your Turkish forefathers stole away from the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians, following the genocides they committed against these three peoples.”

      Here is what you are saying. Turks committed genocide against these people. You then say “following the genocides..”. This means, AFTER committing the genocide, they THEN proceeded to steal the lands. It is universally accepted, and rather obvious, by those who recognize the Armenian genocide that this was a domestic genocide. Meaning the Ottoman Empire committed this genocide on its OWN CITIZENS. Here is my question: If you commit genocide on your own citizens, does that not logically imply that you committed genocide on lands under your own sovereignty? SO, even if you are going the say the Turks “stole” your land it has to be that the Turks stole your land BEFORE the genocide.

      Regarding western Armenia, treaty of Sevres, etc.
      “The Treaty of Sevres, and specifically Wilsonian Armenia, grants us Armenians the right to attach the Western Armenian provinces of Erzurum, Bitlis, Van, and Trebizond, to the Republic of Armenia.”

      And the Treaty of Lasuanne supersedes this treaty. At least, that what everyone that’s not Armenia accepts to be true. The Soviets dropped their land claims on Turkey soon after Turkey joined NATO. As for lawsuits against Turkey. Haven’t European proven time and time again that when push comes to shove, they take Turkey over Armenia. See France, Switzerland, any other number of Armenian genocide denial crime laws and lawsuits. Secondly, what good does an ICJ ruling do when there is no enforcement. Also, it is highly unlikely Armenia can take Turkey to court in the ICJ. http://www.icj-cij.org/court/index.php?p1=1&p2=6 –> read the preconditions.

      As for the Kurds. If there is to be an independent state in eastern Turkey it will be Kurdistan. I agree to this. But the PKK have been fighting since 1984. It is NOT easy to succeed in an ethno-secessionist movement. And unfortunately for many, Turkey is not a weak military state. What are these 20 million (that number is a just a little bit high I think) waiting for? “The right time?” Kurdish secession will be very difficult but still a possibility. Kurdified Armenians proceeding to break off a piece of Kurdistan and rejoin with Armenia is just…. unrealistic.

      Finally, I have never attended school in Turkey.

26. @RVDV,

    Only a delusional Turk, or perhaps a pseudo-Turk in your case, could come up with such nonsense to declare the Turkish-occupied Western Armenian provinces legitimately as part of the genocidal Ottoman Empire and that the Armenian Genocide had no bearing on Armenians losing their homeland. You did not even have the guts to say that for the Turks the preplanned and government-sponsored Armenian Genocide was a means to the end result. In other words, the way to put an end to the Armenian demands to their homeland under Turkish occupation was to put an end to the Armenians themselves living there. After all, it is a lot easier to con the world and claim the Armenian lands as Turkish when no Armenians live there anymore.

    If you genuinely believe in the BS you presented in your remarks, then you should have no problem whatsoever, based on your twisted and perverted logic, with my following counter argument:

    Let’s suppose I come take over your house just because I can. I then force you to turn the deed to your house over to me. I am now officially the owner of your house and you have no rights to the house you and many generations before you lived in. But to show you how compassionate I am for your demise, which I caused in the first place, I will let you live in your own house as a tenant. You will eventually realize what an injustice I have done to you and demand your house back from me. In order to protect and secure my ownership to “my” newly acquired property, I will silence you for good by throwing you off “your” building and declare your death as “self-inflicted”. Later on, when members of your family come and demand your property back from me I will simply show them the deed to the house with my name on it and send them on their way. After all, according to the new house deed, not only I am the new and “legitimate” owner of the house but your “self-inflicted” death has no bearing whatsoever on my ownership of the house. I owned your house long before I threw you off your building and caused your death.

    Reply

    • Your hypothetical scenario does not exactly reflect the situation. Let’s take the first part of your scenario up to the “letting me live as a tenant.” Ok. From here you say that I demand my house back and you basically just kill me and make it seem like something self inflicted. What would be more accurate is if you said that this “landlord-tenant” relationship went on for… say… 7-8-9 generations. AND THEN, there was a serious push from my descendants to get the house back. AND THEN, after all that time, your descendants 7-8-9 generations on- you being the landlord- killed off my descendants to keep the house.

      “Later on, when members of your family come and demand your property back from me I will simply show them the deed to the house with my name on it and send them on their way”

      At this point you have been dead for approximately 400+ years, you can’t send anyone away. I have also been dead for as long at this point. Your descendants that killed my descendants are dead as well. And all we have left is a 500 year old deed that was taken by force- which, at the time, was not necessarily an uncommon practice by any means. And, it is quite interesting that my “family members” are more interested in my property being returned that justice in the name of myself and my descendants who were murdered.

      If you rewrite and distory history to fit the narrative of your objective, how are you any better than those Turks you so despise?

27. RVDV,
    Well, maybe you didn’t attend school in Turkey, however, you most certainly sound like a Turkish denialist, although not as extreme as the typical ones, trained by Ankara. Nevertheless, you persistently attempt to downplay the brutal savagery committed by your Ottoman Turkish forefathers against the Christian inhabitants of the Ottoman Terrorist Empire. Do you honestly believe that the only period of time within Ottoman Turkish history, in which the Armenian people were subjected to brutal oppression, happened to be the Hamidian Massacres, Adana, and the Armenian Genocide? Well, in all due fairness to you, this is certainly a more improved style of thinking, as opposed to the style of thinking of Ankara. However, your style of thinking is still very deficient. For your own education, the Armenian inhabitants, as well as the other Christian inhabitants of the Ottoman Terrorist Empire, were subjected to brutal oppression from the very beginning, back in 1453. And, this went on for almost five hundred years. If you go back and carefully read the details of my previous post, you will develop a much better understanding of what the Ottoman Terrorist Empire truly represented. But then again, how can it be possible for a Turk to recognize almost five hundred years of brutal oppression committed by the Ottoman Terrorist Empire against its Christian inhabitants?

    In terms of the stolen lands issue, it makes absolutely no sense whatever it is that you’re trying to say, just like a naughty little child who desperately attempts to convince his teacher that he was fully justified in stealing all the candy in the classroom, due to the reason that he happens to be a student who studies in that particular classroom. By the way, this particular example ties in perfectly with what the Turkish nation is all about.

    In terms of the Lausanne Treaty, you’re correct when you say that it superseded the Treaty of Sevres. However, the Treaty of Sevres, was never ripped apart. Even though it was not made effective, it still exists. And, we Armenians, armed with this extremely important document, will by any means necessary, reclaim the stolen lands of Western Armenia, in court, or out of court.

    You seem to be taking those twenty million Kurds, over in southeastern Turkey, very lightly. You shouldn’t! They’re strong, and they have a lot of guns. And, the moment they revolt, they will be fully backed by the army of Iraqi Kurdistan. How can the Turkish army possibly take on twenty million well armed Kurds, combined with the Kurdistan army? Southeastern Turkey will easily be united with northern Iraqi Kurdistan. And as all this is taking place, the Kurdified Armenian region of northeastern Turkey (Western Armenia), will easily be united with the Republic of Armenia. Just wait and see what ends up hitting the Turkish nation on top of its head. It’s all a matter of time!

    Reply

28. Eh……Ararat
    My friend who do you think you are engaged with in above your debate-discussion.A gentleman? an honest person? hell they are T U R K S!!
    save your breath.Things will have to happen from UP ABOVE.No not entirely God Allmighty but those who encouraged,kept silent when the GAZAN Dajiks began to slaughter us to evoict our ancestors from our lands..
    PROOF???? why are turks belatedly renovating,repariring doing make overs to our few very few chiurches left half ruined in great Turkey.What do you think is the reason ??repentance?? what?
    No Siree, it it the Big powers who -it appeasrs- are waking up that there are other people near by ..whom they thpought great Turkley could GENDARME!!!!
    Nope, Egypt said La!!! in few arabic words i know that means NO.Then they (Turks) tried to creep into Syurian conflict(again LA)so now they are speculating what to do?? are restless…do you follow what I am saying. They are no not repented.BUT more furious what next is to be their prey.Kurds? they have been trying that for decades..NO DICE!!!
    Armenians ? even worse they are determined to get back first …compensation for Blood they shed..then we´ll see what comes next.Lands are there,I´v said before and WILL NOT PULL THE DISAPPEARING ACT.WE can wait a bit more…O.K.????

    Reply

29. RVDV, don’t be ridiculous. You use the term ‘citizens’ very loosely. Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians were never equal citizens—always subservient to Turks/Muslims, their rights unprotected by laws that elevated Muslims to superiority in Ottoman society. You also use the concept of ‘ownership’ very loosely. Does the ruling party of your city ‘own’ your home? Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks were stripped of their homes, ancestral lands, institutions and belongings by the ruling authorities who deported them and then redistributed their properties. Theft.

    The fact that CUP/Ottomans maintained control of these lands after their genocidal actions is simply the fruit of heinous premeditated crimes. Don’t try to reframe this in terms of ownership concepts as we know them today. Incitement to murder, forced deportation and starvation, rape and expropriation of illegally seized property are the legal terms that apply here.

    The genocidal policies, which you have acknowledged, of the authorities toward their Armenian, Assyrian and Greek ‘subjects’, delegitimized their authority in my opinion, and reduced them to criminals of the worst order. I reject your effort to legitimize these actions as ‘the rights of those who ‘own’ the country.

    I wish you would put a lid on your apologist propaganda for Turkey.
    It may make it easier to stomach the crimes of the CUP and Ottoman government when you couch it in these terms—but none of it is ‘legal’.

    Reply

    • well said Boyajian.

30. And speaking of what is legal: The arbitral award of the Wilsonian borders of Armenia through the Treaty of Sevres may have succumbed to the geopolitical wrangling that resulted in the Treaty of Lausanne—but it didn’t change the legitimacy of the award.

    Reply

31. RVDV

    LIke Karim Khan said …you live in sunny California and shooting sh$$$ your writing and logic is in reversal mode and no Armenian will buy that…like our old buddy gaytzag palandjian said, we will wait!!

    Reply

32. RVDV:

    Thanks for the reply. (RVDV // December 30, 2013 at 8:35 pm //)
    Let me comment in two separate posts: Azerbaijan, then lands.

    Regarding: {“ Azerbaijan sent more soldiers to fight in WWII than Armenia did. More Azeri citizens were recognized as “Hero of the Soviet Union”. More Azeris died than Armenians in WWII.”}

    Of course AzrbSSR would have sent more people to WW2 and lost more: it had about 2.5X the population of ArmSSR.
    But if you look at percentages of population that participated in the war, percentages of ethnicities in each republic, and the number of KIA in war from each republic, you get very interesting results: you’d be surprised.
    I will only analyze the ‘Hero of USSR’ numbers here.
    But you can extrapolate from there as to numbers who fought and were KIA.

    The number of ‘Hero of USSR’ awarded to residents of Azerbaijan SSR:
    RVDV – 130
    Yerevanian – 128
    Wiki – 128.
    The citation of 128 @Wiki has no source, so I could not verify the number. But we can agree it is 128-130: close enough.

    Armenia SSR residents:
    RVDV – 119 (same number cited by Pres Sargsyan)
    Yerevanian – 117 (113 ethnic Armenians)
    My source – 106 (it is an unofficial .ru site, so not sure if it is accurate.)
    However, I’ll take the lower number 106 for this analysis.

    Yerevanian claims: {“The exact number of Azeris from Azerbaijan who were awarded as “hero”, is 91.”}
    Interestingly, the Wiki citation that has 128 for Azerbaijan, also states this: {“There were 42 ethnic Azerbaijanis who received the title of Hero of the Soviet Union and 14 of them were awarded posthumously”}.

    There was no reference source for the cited number of 42 in Wiki, so I did a little research and found an Azerbaijani site that lists all 42.
    The real source would be USSR archives, of course.
    But I doubt that an Azerbaijani site would attempt to minimize the number of their Heroes.

    Next, we will look at why there is such a discrepancy between residents of AzrbSSR being awarded Hero of USSR, and a separate number of “ethnic Azerbaijanis”. 128-130 vs 42.

    POPULATIONS and Ethnic Makeup of AzerbaijanSSR and ArmeniaSSR, 1939 census.
    (I have omitted small percentage ethnicities)

    ARMENIA SSR
    Total population: 1.3 million
    Armenians: 1.06 million (83%)
    Russians: 51,000 (4%)
    Azerbaijanis: 131,000 (10%)

    AZERBAIJAN SSR
    Total population: 3.2 million
    Azerbaijanis: 1.87 million (58%)
    Russians: 528,000 (16%)
    Armenians: 388,000 (12%)
    Lezgins: 3.5%
    Talysh: 2.7%
    Many other minorities.

    EPILOGUE

    So what does it all that mean ?
    Well, if I take 83% (ethnic Armenian) of 106 ‘Hero of USSR’ awarded to Armenia SSR residents, 88 medals, it is quite a bit more than 42.
    Even if I take 58% (ethnic Azerbaijanis) of 130 awarded to Azerbaijan SSR residents, 75 medals, is still less than 88.
    (assuming proportional percentages were drafted or volunteered from each republic)
    Because Armenians in AzerbSSR (12%) and Azerbaijanis in ArmSSR (10%) are about the same percentage, they’ll cancel each others’ medal percentages, so I omitted that from the total.

    The number of medals is in absolute numbers: if you take per capita, the difference is even starker.
    And the inordinate number of Armenian Generals and Marshalls during WW2 adds to the complexity of the picture.

    Again, what does it all mean ?
    I think each person has to reach their own conclusion.
    But clearly, there are enough ethnic Azerbaijani ‘Hero of USSR’ recipients not to question their fighting ability.
    It is a matter of degree: it is not all or nothing.
    And how many of those classified as ‘ethnic Azerbaijani’ are ethnic TatarTurks (Caucasian Turks), how many are Talysh, Tats, etc – I do not know.

    My own amateur study of military history over many years has convinced me that no ethnos, nationality, or country has a corner on valor. There are no invincible armies. There are many variables in war: no one is guaranteed a win. During the NKR war, our side lost many battles. Some units of Azerbaijani military fought very well. Although it is not clear who was who in those units, as far as constituent ethnicities (….and I don’t mean the Afghan Muj, Chechens, etc). There were an inordinate percentage of indigenous ethnic minorities of the State of Azerbaijan who were conscripted for the war, such as Talysh, Lezgins, Tats, Avars, etc. Many no doubt volunteered as well.
    In any case, our Armenian captains were better captains than theirs, our fighters ended up being more tenacious and winning more battles, and ultimately the war. But it was a tough slugfest up until about the end of 1992. After their major successes during the summer of 1992, Azerbaijan’s military was decimated during the Armenian counterattacks, and NKR started rolling them. Exhausted Azerbaijani military resorted to sending raw recruits to the front towards the end: they were badly mauled by veteran Armenian fighters. When the ceasefire was signed in 1994, Azerbaijan had hardly any units left capable of putting up any organized resistance.

    And war is Hell: a war of choice should be avoided at all costs.

    Reply

33. @RVDV,

    I forgot you take everything very literally and missed the real point of my argument. Let me rephrase it in a much simpler and practical language you will understand. There is no such thing as legitimate occupation of other people’s homelands no matter how you try to spin it. It does not matter how long these occupations lasted either. You make it sound like the longer the occupation lasts, which you so cunningly refer to as “sovereignty” over such occupied lands, the more legitimate the ownership to those occupied lands by the occupiers become. Even more ridiculous than that is the fallacy you are trying so hard to pass as facts of the treatment of the subjugated people as citizens equal to the Turkish occupiers when in fact never in the history of Turkish occupation the Armenians, and other non-Turks and non-Muslims in particular, have been equal to Turks.

    The Ottoman Empire was dubbed as the so-called “Center of Islam” and you are going to tell me with a straight face that in such an environment, not to mention with Muslim Sharia laws, the infidel Armenians and other Christians were equal to the Turks? Not so. To qualify as a Turkish citizen and an equal you had to be a Turk and a Muslim and the Armenians were neither. Based on such mentality and the Turkish character toward non-Turks, I have no doubt that the most uneducated and illiterate Turkish peasant had more rights than the most educated and law-abiding Armenian and you know why? Because an Armenian, no matter how advanced and civilized compared to a primitive Turkish nomad, was still not a Turk and not a Muslim but an infidel who rejected your “benevolent” allah. To think the Turkish rulers of the so-called Center of Islam treating the Armenians, the first and the most ancient allah-rejecting dedicated Christians living in their own homeland under Turkish occupation, as equals to allah-fearing Muslims is delusional.

    It does not take a genius to realize the primitive argument set forth by a Turk and his perverted logic is nothing more than a ploy to claim ownership to 90% of occupied Armenian homeland even though he may have a lukewarm view of the legitimacy of the Armenian Genocide. In laymen’s terms, you are attempting to make a clear distinction between the mass extermination of the Armenians and the acquisition of their ancestral homeland for the simple reason that Turkey may eventually be forced to face the facts and change its denialist stand on the Armenian Genocide and even make financial compensation but giving up occupied Armenian territory is non-negotiable. What you keep failing to realize is that those occupied lands were for thousands of years populated by Armenians you murdered less than a hundred years ago in order to seal the deal and have their full but illegitimate possession. No matter how long the Armenian homeland was under Turkish occupation before you committed the Armenian Genocide, takes nothing away from the fact that the two go hand-in-hand and can not be separated just because one occurred long before the other. I mean what part of invasion, occupation followed by an eventual mass extermination and land confiscation do you not understand? What you also fail to realize is the fact that if the Armenians were not murdered and were still living in their confiscated and Turkish-occupied homeland, there would have been tens of millions of Armenians living there today and Turkey could not exist in the same form as it does today.

    The last thing I want to point out in your twisted mentality is the fact that you even tried to portray the Turks as more compassionate and benevolent invaders and occupiers compared to other tyrants in the world. Now that is truly a classic Turkish logic indeed.

    Reply

    • “The last thing I want to point out in your twisted mentality is the fact that you even tried to portray the Turks as more compassionate and benevolent invaders and occupiers compared to other tyrants in the world.”

      Not Turks, plural. One Turk. One Sultan. The same one who has a bust in the US House of Representatives as one of the great lawmakers in history. Considering the early-mid 16th century, Suleiman was far superior, fairer, and just than other world leaders. But his father was known as the butcher of Alevis and his son was a useless drunk.

      ” I have no doubt that the most uneducated and illiterate Turkish peasant had more rights than the most educated and law-abiding Armenian..”

      So you don’t know for fact? You just “have no doubt”? You’re just guessing based on what you hold to be undeniable truths on the nature of the Ottoman law and the nature of Turks? Btw, if I had to guess I would say you are probably right but since neither of us knows for sure, maybe we can debate based on more definite factual evidence.

      “In laymen’s terms, you are attempting to make a clear distinction between the mass extermination of the Armenians and the acquisition of their ancestral homeland..”

      Yes, but not because of the reason you listed. My reason is because, to me, they didn’t happen at the same time. Armenians, who want the land back, claim it did happen at the same time. This is the point at which we have a debate. You don’t win arguments with name-calling and getting angry. If two people were debating some random issue and you were the judge of who is right/wins, would you side with (let’s say both are 50% correct)? The person who get’s angry and starts name-calling/personal attacks? Or the person, who maintains a respectful and calm demeanor? I am not your enemy, you may want to remember that.

      Finally, any plan on what you will do with western Armenia if you get it back? More specifically, any plans about what you’ll do with the roughly 6-7 million people currently in that region? Offer them citizenship? Kick them all out and create 6-7 million refugees (punish them for sins they did not commit)? “I don’t care”, or “that’s the Turks problem” is not an acceptable answer because it is most definitely your problem too.

34. [Hasan Jalal Vakhtangian from Khachen // December 24, 2013 at 10:17 pm //: “The reply from Karim should not be dismissed by Armenians simply as an unfriendly rant.”]

    I agree with Melik Hasan. The best way to learn is to learn from the enemy (not that our brother Karim is an enemy here). Even assuming that Azerbaijan will run out of oil in 20 years, there may not be a republic of Armenia in 20 years. According to latest statistics, the migration from Armenia has reached disastrous levels: over 100,000 people have left Armenia and not returned just in one quarter:
    http://www.armenianow.com/society/50966/emigration_armenia_national_statistical_service

    At this rate, we are talking about 2 million in 20 years. That is what Armenia pays for denying democracy to its people. As I have said before, unless Armenia becomes a democracy, in 20 years there will be no Armenia.

    Circumstances in the region will always change. Azerbaijan may run out of oil. It may turn to Russia. Russia may favor them over us, as it has done so many times. The only way to be ready for these changes is for Armenia to be strong, and the only way for Armenia to become strong is through democracy (my preference being the U.S. model, due to its historical success). Otherwise, Armenia will be swept away in the regional changes as it has before.

    Reply

35. Voskanapat,
    First of all, in the many articles I’ve read on the subject of the Khojaly incident, the name of this town was always spelled, Khojaly. If you wish to instead spell it, Khojalu, you’re certainly welcome. And, I will repeat again that the many articles I’ve read on this particular subject, such as in the New York Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, Le Monde, as well as other sources, are in no way associated with Azerbaijan or Turkey. As a matter of fact, everything I’ve read in these sources up to now, confirm the details of the Khojaly incident, as presented over on Armeniapedia. It’s utterly absurd how you desperately attempt to refer to these details as being heavily infested with Azeri propaganda lies. You’re now going to try and say that the site, Armeniapedia, cannot possibly be Armenian, just because it presents evidence in which you do not agree with? Once again, this shows how extremely narrow minded you are. By the way, were you not aware that the “Armenia”, in Armeniapedia, is associated with the word, Armenian? I think it’s time for you to go learn some Armenian.

    How can you possibly say that the dead bodies of the Azeri civilians were not found near the town of Khojaly? Hey, you need to read the details given by Memorial Human Rights Center, as well as Human Rights Watch, and you will see how extremely wrong you are.

    Reply

36. Avery,
    Those figures which I posted earlier in regard to the number of Armenians and Azeris who received the award, Hero of the Soviet Union during World War 2, was given to me by a Russian historian. However, I now feel that these figures are inaccurate. A few moments ago, I came across a site, which puts the Armenian figure at 107. http://www.academia.edu/…/The_Armenian_Contribution_to_the_Allied_Vict…
    As for the Azeri figures, it seems the only site which provides these details is Wikipedia, which lists the number at 42.
    Anyway

    Reply

    • {“As for the Azeri figures, it seems the only site which provides these details is Wikipedia, which lists the number at 42.”}

      Yerevanian:

      you seem to have skipped some parts of my post: understandable; it was quite long.
      In fact I did find an Azerbaijani site that lists those 42.
      And only 42.

      {“There was no reference source for the cited number of 42 in Wiki, so I did a little research and found an Azerbaijani site that lists all 42.
      The real source would be USSR archives, of course.
      But I doubt that an Azerbaijani site would attempt to minimize the number of their Heroes.”}(Avery // January 2, 2014 at 11:57 pm // )

37. RVDV,
    You should read books such as Black Dog of Fate, and The Burning Tigris, by the distinguished historian, Peter Balakian, and then you will develop a more firm understanding of how the uneducated and illiterate Turkish peasants possessed so many more rights than the Armenians, as well as other Christians.

    In one of your earlier posts, you were talking about the sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire. How could the Ottoman Empire possibly have been a sovereign nation? It was an empire, composed of several countries and territories, conquered by the Ottoman Turks, and inserted into their empire. And once again, the inhabitants of these conquered territories and countries, were never citizens of the Ottoman Empire. They were subjects of the Ottoman Empire. There’s a huge difference between being a citizen and a subject.

    In terms of the stolen lands issue, although you do recognize the Armenian Genocide, you still continue to deny the Turks’ theft of the Western Armenian provinces. By now, you do agree that the lands occupied by the Armenians prior to the genocide, which constitute present-day eastern Turkey, were conquered by the Turks. And you do agree the Turks committed genocide against the Armenian inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire, in which those particular lands in present-day eastern Turkey, previously occupied by Armenians, suddenly became empty. After all this, what do you think the Ottoman Empire’s next move was? It consisted of taking possession of all the properties left behind by the Armenian Genocide victims, and then attempting to erase any possible proof that these lands, once occupied by Armenians, had ever once been Armenian. A perfect example of this, would be the two thousand Armenian churches which once existed in the Western Armenian provinces. The vast majority of these churches were destroyed, and the ones not destroyed, were converted into other types of structures with the crosses fully removed. Does all of this not sound to you like the Armenians who once occupied Western Armenia (present-day eastern Turkey), were robbed of their properties and lands?

    In terms of your question regarding what we will do with Western Armenia, once we get it back, it’s very easy to answer. To begin with, the vast majority of the inhabitants who inhabit the Western Armenian provinces of Erzurum, Van, Bitlis, and Trebizond, happen to be Kurdified Armenians. They are also the descendants of the Armenian Genocide victims. So naturally, it is they who will inhabit this territory, after it gets united with the Republic of Armenia. These people identify themselves as Armenian, and they wish to learn about the Armenian culture and its history. That’s why it’s important for the Armenian diaspora to immediately begin sending teachers to this region to teach these people about the culture and history of their Armenian ancestors.

    Reply

    • “How could the Ottoman Empire possibly have been a sovereign nation?”

      The Ottoman Empire, without question, was a sovereign state. It had a government which had control over its population, it was internationally recognized, and it entered into foreign relations with other states.

      “Does all of this not sound to you like the Armenians who once occupied Western Armenia (present-day eastern Turkey), were robbed of their properties and lands?”

      Homes, schools, churches, personal property, lands, fields, etc., yes. All these were stolen and need to returned, and if they have been destroyed- compensated for. My whole point throughout this entire debate was that in 1915, the territory as a whole wasn’t yours to lose because it has already been taken by force centuries earlier. That doesn’t mean you have no right to the land, or any right to ask for it back, I just don’t think it will hold up in court.

      “To begin with, the vast majority of the inhabitants who inhabit the Western Armenian provinces of Erzurum, Van, Bitlis, and Trebizond, happen to be Kurdified Armenians.”

      I’m sure there are some that would change to their Armenian identity, but “vast majority?” That’s a really big assumption. You might just end up with a couple million unhappy Kurds.

38. RVDV:

    Re land issue (December 30, 2013 at 8:35 pm //)

    I was quite surprised you would use the expression “…claim squatters rights over every land Armenians ever lived on”.

    “claim squatters rights” ?

    Must have been having a bad day, friend. Just the same, so be it.
    I strongly object to your assertion that our land claims are based on “squatting” over any land that Armenians ever lived on.
    And that label can be applied far more appropriately to Turks, many of whom claim every piece of land they live on, used to live on, sometimes never lived on – as ‘native Turkish’ lands. Including lots of lands that they took from others by force. (see footnote below).
    But, an interesting subject for another thread perhaps.

    We have discussed this land issue many times before, and the verb “stolen” seems to bother you much.
    I myself have used that word specifically in regards to Western Armenia.

    And here is why:

    You have argued previously that other empires have taken land by force, so Turks should not be judged so harshly.
    I’ll put aside for a moment the Turkish style of empire building, vs say, Persian style, or Roman style, or Russian style.
    So let’s fast forward from circa 1000AD to circa 1895.
    Between 1895 and 1923 about 2 million indigenous Armenians were exterminated.
    An unknown number of ‘hidden’ Armenians were also massacred together with majority Kurdish victims during the Dersim massacre in 1938.

    Let us assume the Genocide had not happened.
    Natural growth would have resulted in that 2 million increasing to about 10 million by now. Inside Turkey.
    And we are not counting those that escaped the murderers and spread all over the world.
    There are higher estimates, but I’ll use 10 million.
    Kurds inside Turkey are about 20-25 million right now.

    Without the Genocide, Armenians in Turkey would be in somewhat a similar situation as Kurds are today.
    Oppressed, discriminated against, marginalized – but alive and living.
    As Turkish Kurds. As Turkish Armenians.

    Sooner or later Kurds in Turkey will get some sort of semi-autonomy, then autonomy, then possibly independence.
    When ? No idea.
    Or maybe they will decide to remain part of a future Federated Turkey: but it will be more or less their choice.
    Example: Indigenous Kurds in Northern Iraq were chafing under Arab rule for a very long time.
    They even had some Autonomy on paper dating back to 1970s.
    Oppressed. But living as Kurds. Biding their time.
    Fighting on and off with Baghdad, but not strong enough to break free.
    Then external events suddenly threw the gates of opportunity wide open for them.
    And the rest is history.
    Is there any argument that Iraqi Kurdistan is independent in all but name today ?
    And from all accounts, Kurds have done a fine job running their own little piece of independent Kurdistan.

    btw: if Iraqi Arabs had successfully exterminated _all_ Kurds in Northern Iraq (aka South Kurdistan) to prevent a future Iraqi Kurdistan, would you be as charitable towards them as you are towards Turks, RVDV ?

    Yes, Turkey is a strong country right now. It has a large military. But Turkey also has a lot of fissures just below the calm, seemingly solid surface.
    Sunni vs Shia/Alevi, Kurd vs Turk, Kemalist vs Islamist, AKP vs Gulen,…
    Turkish Kurds cannot take on the TSK head on, so they will remain Kurds, grow more numerous every year, until something happens externally or internally to give them the break. It is inevitable. Because they did not melt into ‘Mountain Turks’. They remained Kurds. And are becoming more openly nationalist Kurdish every year.

    So had Turks not committed Genocide, Armenians of Turkey would most certainly follow the path of Kurds in Turkey.
    Turks _stole_ Western Armenia, because they murdered the legitimate owners to prevent a natural process taking its course.
    Had they not done that, and Armenians of Turkey had naturally melted away on their own over time for whatever reason, it would be different.
    But Turks resorted to the Crime of Genocide to eliminate the theoretical possibility that some day Armenians might demand autonomy and maybe independence. Maybe Armenians would, or maybe they wouldn’t. Maybe, like Kurds, they might prefer to remain part of a larger hypothetical Federated whole, for a variety of reasons. Something like ArmeniaSSR inside USSR. Or like Northern Ireland and Scotland as part of Britain. But Turks crossed the line when they committed Genocide. And I don’t mean just the legal definition of Genocide: I mean Turks murdered something like 70%-80% of the resident Armenian population, and the rest barely escaped.

    What else would you call it but theft ?

    FOOTNOTE

    {Armenians in the Caucasus are alien people who created their artificial state on native Turkish lands, and therefore they have no right to talk about their ancient roots in the region.} (Secretary General of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) of Turkey, Haluk Ipek. November 2012, News.az)

    Reply

    • “Kurds inside Turkey are about 20-25 million right now.”

      I think it’s quite a bit lower. Take assimilated Kurds, like me, and children with a Kurdish and Turkish parent- like many of my cousins. What are we? So its gets a little complicated. CIA world factbook puts the population at 14 million. That’s right around my estimate.

      “if Iraqi Arabs had successfully exterminated _all_ Kurds in Northern Iraq (aka South Kurdistan) to prevent a future Iraqi Kurdistan, would you be as charitable towards them as you are towards Turks, RVDV ?”

      I don’t think I’m being charitable towards Turks. I have told you that if I were the chief negotiator for the Turkish side I would make some territorial concessions despite my views on it. Let’s just say some scenario happens and Turkey is forced to concede western Armenia (including what the Kurds want), I think we’d be better off. The poorest part of the country- gone to Armenia and Kurds. Dealing with Kurds and the PKK- gone. Armenian genocide PR nightmare for Turkey- probably done at this point. Prospects to join the EU- dramatically increased. The only reason I may seem charitable is because the that area was stolen (ok I’ll play along) before 1915. For centuries after that point, Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks, Azeris (or Turkic Muslims), and Alevis (whom neither Turks nor Kurds ever really embraced, even to this day) all lived in varying numbers in that region. And it was all under Ottoman control. I think the theft started in 1071, gained ground in 1514, and finally “succeeded” when we resorted to murdering everyone in 1895-1915. Maybe we’ll know for sure whose idea is accepted by a panel of (hopefully) unbiased judges when Armenia finally decides “its time” to take this to courts.

      As for Iraq… I know its commonly accepted here at AW that Turkey is a “fake” state. Then that would make Iraq a super fake state. What is an Iraqi btw? A Sunni Arab? A Shi’a Arab? A Kurd? Its a piece of land ruled by various Muslim Empires in history, lastly the Ottomans, and was primarily inhabited by Arabs and Kurds. It’s no different to me than an African nation where the west just decided to draw lines on a map. Again, what even is “Iraq” for them to commit genocide against Kurds to prevent them from taking “Iraqi” land?…. now that I’m writing this I think I finally understand how you guys view Turkey….. I’ll get back to you.

39. Yerevanian
    Your Kurdified Armenians argument is a joke

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40. RVDV,
    I will add to Avery’s post above. In another thread..

    http://armenianweekly.com/2013/12/18/yegparian-reconciliation/

    You raised issues about Turkey’s rights to land, and Kurds as well struggling for those lands. Of course no nation is going to give up their lands by will, but that is by ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, and in Turkey’s case that is not true. My point is, Turkey is not, or should not be, in a position to make that decision. After committing Genocide, why would it be allowed by the US/EU to dictate what its lands are? For me the first step here is, even while Turkey can hold through force all the land it can, my first issue is with the US and EU ‘recognizing’ these moves, and that’s how they all ganged up and betrayed Armenia after the first war. And now that Armenia is an independent nation again, her rights are still being neglected by the same western countries.

    I actually believe that if Armenia is to ever get justice, reparations and its rightful lands back, these same powers will have to do the same thing to Turkey they did to Armenia previously: invalidate old treaties, withdraw any support, un-recognize Turkey’s borders, etc. Despite slow changes taking place and good Turks out there with kind hearts, I don’t believe Turkey on the whole, headed by its successive despotic and criminal minded governments are enlightened enough or decent enough to ever do anything to solve its issues and past crimes with Armenians. In order for Armenia to deal with Turkey, Turkey’s government will need to make a 180 degree turn, and there is little chance of that happening.

    You say that the people living there today are ‘our problem’. Why should it be? That same entity that committed Genocide in order to bring in Muslims from everywhere is the one that’s responsible to do the same again, this time in reverse. Regarding the Cilicia issue of millions being there, naturally millions of people are not going to move as if it was nothing under peaceful terms. If and when that time comes, and by peaceful methods, that process does not need to be overnight, it can take a very long time, and time is on our side, we are patient. We can’t claim vast amounts of lands overnight anyway. It would not be efficient. Let’s also remember that if Armenia ever does get lands back, there is also a possibility that the people that live there can stay there, albeit under Armenian law going forward, which would mean they would have to pay rents and or taxes to Armenia. At this point I don’t know if getting Cilicia is a realistic possibility, but I would say Wilsonian Armenia is, and that for many of us is minimum and ‘non negotiable’. Also remember that in the treaty of Sevres, boundaries are defined, including a future Kurdistan.

    You also said what about the Kurds who have been fighting for 30 years on those land we claim. Well, Kurds should not be fighting for a land which is acquired through Genocide and which the victims of Genocide are claiming in the first place, otherwise they are no less guilty than Turkey. What Kurds should be fighting for first is autonomy and the right to self-determination. The land issue will need to be worked out later by Armenia and a future Kurdistan, if any. If you are suggesting that western Armenia should belong to a future Kurdistan because Kurds have been engaged in armed struggle for the past 30 years, then that is nothing more than two people killing another, then fighting for the dead person’s possessions. If Kurds take such a position, then the future Kurdistan is no different than the present Turkey in terms of being responsible for Genocide.

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41. John the turk,
    Actually, it’s the Islamic Crescent Terrorist nation of Turkey, which is a joke. And, it’ll become an even bigger joke, as soon as those twenty million unhappy independence seeking Kurds, combined with the Iraqi Kurdistan army, break off the southeastern region of Turkey. Once this happens, it’ll be so easy for the Kurdified Armenians of northeastern Turkey to break off that region, and unite it with the Republic of Armenia. And, also make sure to remember that by the year 2044, which is only 30 years away, with the current rate of Kurdish population growth as compared to the declining rate of Turkish population growth, the Kurds will end up becoming the largest group in Turkey. Either way you look at it, the Turkish terrorist nation is doomed. Turkey’s dogfather, Recep Tayvip Erdogan, has become totally sick in the head over this rapid Kurdish population growth/rapidly declining Turkish population rate issue. Erdogan’s feathers are coming off, one by one. On one side, he’s dealing with the Armenian nightmare, and on the other side, he’s dealing with the Kurdish nightmare. Isn’t that a little too much for a pathetic turkey like Erdogan to digest?

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42. RVDV,
    You actually have the nerve to classify your forefathers’ empire as being a sovereign nation? How’s that possible? Just because it had a government, in no way implies that the Ottoman Empire was a sovereign nation. It was an empire, composed of conquered countries and territories. And your claim that the Ottoman Empire happened to be “internationally recognized”, is ridiculous just like all your other claims. Exactly how is it possible for an empire to be internationally recognized? Who are you trying to fool with all this nonsense?

    In terms of eastern Turkey’s Kurdified Armenian population, as much as you might be disappointed, the vast majority of them deeply reject being labeled as Turks. They wish to identify themselves as Armenian.

    By the way, how is that corrupt organization called the “CIA”, supposed to know how many Kurds there are in Turkey? Fourteen million is an extremely low number. The Kurdish population experts of Turkey, place Turkey’s Kurdish population to be between 20-25 million. This number is certainly the most accurate.

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    • This is not debatable. The Ottoman Empire was a sovereign nation. End of story. I’m sorry but it’s just that simple.

43. Avery,
    I actually have a new figure now, for the number of Azeris crowned as hero of the Soviet Union, during World War 2. The number is 26, and it was given to me by a Japanese historian. The figure of 91, given to me by the Russian historian, definitely sounds too high. The figure of 42, given on Wikipedia, as well as that Azerbaijani site you checked out, also sounds a little bit high. However, the figure of 26, sounds a lot more accurate.

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44. Avery above states that Turks exterminated 70-80% of Armenians. Let’s do a simple math. Currently, there are ~8m Armenians. According to Wikipedia, the world population in Europe has increased from 408m in 1900 to 740m in 2012. Now true, Armenia is not quiet Europe, although it has been more like it thanks to being part of Russia and diaspora. Still, let’s me more liberal and say that Armenian’s current population (whoever has survived) is 2X of their ancestors’ count in 1900. So, 8 divided by 2 equal, 4. So 4million Armenians back then represented 20% of the Armenians or one fifth (80% being exterminated). So, 4 is the one fifth of 20 million. In other words, Avery saying that Turks exterminated ~16 million Armenians!! But according to the most liberal estimates, Turks killed 1 million and not 16 m. I don’t mean to diminish the tragedy of Armenian Genocide, but want to highlight why it is so hard for others to take your claims seriously. By exaggerating your case, you do it a great disservice, because you damage your credibility … Or it could just be Avery, that noble anti-Turk web-warrior Avery, being pretty bad in math. It might be hard to catch someing talking nonsense when that nonsense if verbal only, but as soon as you bring in numbers, one must be careful not to be caught talking nonsense.

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45. RVDV

    It is better to say that Ottomans were sovereign “multi nations”!! Greeks, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbians, even, Islamized Bosnians or Albanians, Croatians, Eyptians, Iraqis…… they were all independent nations when Invading Central Asian newly Islamized multi tribes Turkic tribes violently occupied them, even today’s Turkish nation is one of the victim of Ottomans, but brain washed turks do not understand!!

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46. RVDV,
    It’s always a pleasure to engage into a debate with you. I enjoy having the opportunity to educate you about your country’s true history, as well as many other things. Once again, how could it have been possible for the Ottoman Empire, composed of conquered countries and territories, to be internationally recognized as a sovereign nation? Hey RVDV, even you cannot possibly believe such a ridiculous claim.

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    • When you think of an “empire”, don’t think of a Soviet style empire where, for example, there was an Armenian SSR, etc. When the Ottoman Empire occupied Armenia, Armenia was not a country. Neither was Greece. Or Bulgaria. Nor any of the former Yugoslav nations. Nor Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. They only became independent- in other words, they became countries, AFTER they got their independence from the Ottoman Empire (or the British in the case of the Arab states). TO be clear- COUNTRY= Sovereign state. Can you say Armenia was a sovereign state under Ottoman rule? No you can’t. So how can you say it was a country? Why can’t you this? Because the sovereignty was held not by the colonized people, but by the state who colonized them- the Ottoman Empire. Only sovereign states can be legal signatories to treaties. For example, the Treaty of Kars in 1921. Some scholars say this treaty should be annulled because the Turkish signatory was the Turkish Grand National Assembly. However, in 1921, Turkey did not exist. Only the Ottoman Empire should have been able to sign this treaty. Or so said the Ottoman constitution, making the actions of Ataturk essentially illegal. Find me one real source saying the Ottoman Empire was NOT a sovereign state. You cannot, because it is such an obvious fact that there is no need to state the obvious. This is by far, the most ridiculous debate I have ever had on AW. At least check wikipedia before you make further ignorant claims.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_sovereign_states_by_year

      Check ANY year. It goes from the Middle Ages to the present.

47. RVDV,
    Actually, your Wikipedia never once states that the Ottoman Empire was a sovereign nation. It precisely states,”The Ottoman Empire was a contiguous transcontinental empire founded by the Oghuz Turks, under Osman Bey in northwestern Anatolia in 1299. With the conquest of Constantinople by Mehmet 2 in 1453, the Ottoman state was transformed into an empire.” Hey RVDV, even when it comes to reading simple English over on your favorite site of Wikipedia, you’re still incapable of understanding what you read.

    In terms of Armenia and Greece, they were both countries for several thousand years before the Ottoman Turks came in and conquered them. After that, they both became provinces of the Ottoman Empire. As for the Soviet Union, it happened to be the union of 15 republics, as opposed to the Ottoman Empire, which consisted of conquered countries and territories.

    Hey RVDV, find me one non-Turkish source which states that the Ottoman Empire was indeed a sovereign nation. You cannot because it’s such an obvious fact that an empire, composed of conquered countries and territories, cannot possibly be a sovereign nation. Anyway, it’s always a pleasure for me to deflect your ridiculous claims.

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48. Karim,
    For your own education, Armenia is not part of Russia. It acquired its independence from the former Soviet Union, back in 1991. This means that Armenia has been an independent nation for 22 years now.

    Exactly where did Avery state that the Turks murdered sixteen million Armenians? Do you even know what you’re talking about? If you go back and carefully read Avery’s post from January 4, 2014, at 1:09 pm, you will notice that what is stated, consists of the following:”Between 1895 and 1923, about 2 million Armenians were exterminated.” This is a correct figure. This translates to 76.9 percent of the pre-1895 Ottoman Empire Armenian population of 2.6 million, which ended up being exterminated between 1894 and 1922.

    Hey Karim, in addition to taking a beginner’s course in English, you also need to take a beginner’s course in math.

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49. RVDV,
    The Wikipedia list of sovereign states by year, which you provided, does not prove anything. To begin with, Wikipedia isn’t even a credible source. Any Turk, can easily edit that particular section and falsely include the Ottoman Empire in that list. Find me one non-Turkish/Azeri source, which states in an actual sentence that the Ottoman Empire was indeed a sovereign nation. You cannot, because it’s such an obvious fact that an empire, which is composed of a group of countries or regions controlled by one ruler or government, cannot possibly be a sovereign nation. As an example, Armenia and Greece, happened to be two of those countries which existed for several thousand years before being conquered by the Ottoman Turks. Anyway, let’s see what kind of ridiculous claims you invent in your next post.

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    • You know there’s like 250 pages on that wikipedia thread that each, individually, state the Ottoman Empire as a sovereign state. State and country are terms that can be used interchangeably. Nation does not mean the same thing as state/country. Country, also, does not necessarily mean state. Scotland is a country. However it is not a sovereign state. The United Kingdom is the sovereign state. Ignorance of these terms makes it very easy to make uneducated statements. Of course the Ottoman Empire was not a nation. Because nation does not mean state.

      “As an example, Armenia and Greece, happened to be two of those countries which existed for several thousand years before being conquered by the Ottoman Turks.”

      What is Greece? A state that has existed since 1822. Prior to 1822 no state called Greece existed. And this is where the terminology you need you learn comes into play. The NATION of Greece has existed for millennia, this much is indisputable. the STATE of Greece? 1822. The Byzantine Empire was Greek speaking, but unless you call the Ottoman Empire as “Turkey” you can’t call the Byzantine Empire “Greece”, regardless of its predominant Hellenistic culture. Same with Armenia. The Armenian nation has existed for thousands of years. This much is obvious. The STATE of Armenia? In which reincarnation? The various kingdoms that we’re ruled by specific dynasties until those dynasties died out, to be replaced by a new kingdom? Kingdoms that existed on the Armenia plateau or kingdoms that existed in Cilicia? Which Armenia? Do you really think history is as simple as you try to make it seem?

      Sovereignty: “the power of a state to do everything necessary to govern itself, such as making, executing, and applying laws; imposing and collecting taxes; making war and peace; and forming treaties or engaging in commerce with foreign nations.”

      Anything you can point out here that the Ottoman Empire couldn’t do? Or do you think the Turks made up a definition for sovereignty as well? The Ottoman Empire was a sovereign state compromised of dozens of nations, not countries. Greeks and Armenians never had the level of autonomy and freedom of a Scotland in my prior example.

      Finally: “it’s such an obvious fact that an empire, which is composed of a group of countries or regions controlled by one ruler or government, cannot possibly be a sovereign nation”

      The United Kingdom (not really an empire anymore), which I referenced earlier, is compromised of 4 COUNTRIES: Wales, Northern Ireland, England, and Scotland. YET, the sovereignty of all the countries is held by the STATE known as the United Kingdom. Don’t waste my time if you don’t know what you’re talking about.

50. RVDV,
    Your claims are getting more and more preposterous with each post. You’re still surfing over on Wikipedia? That makes perfect sense, because truthfully speaking, you’re not capable of reading a book or anything else for that matter. As I told you before, Wikipedia has no credibility as a source. Any Turk, can easily edit that particular list of sovereign states by year, and falsely include the Ottoman Empire in that list. You still have not been able to find me one non-Turkish/Azeri source of credibility, which states in an actual sentence that the Ottoman Empire was indeed a sovereign state or nation.

    How can you possibly compare the United Kingdom, which is an internationally recognized sovereign state/nation, to the Ottoman Empire, which was never internationally recognized as a sovereign state/nation?

    How can you possibly believe that the country of Greece did not exist before its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1822? Even the little children in elementary school, know that the country of Greece existed way before 1822. After all, Greece happens to be one of the world’s oldest countries, along with Armenia.

    Hey RVDV, in your previous post, you were saying that I’m wasting your time, but yet, you keep returning back to me for more education.

    How can you

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    • “That makes perfect sense, because truthfully speaking, you’re not capable of reading a book or anything else for that matter”

      Well in that case I think I’ve done quite well as a law student with degrees in International Relations and history from a public ivy.

      “The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.” -Winston Churchill

      Please don’t repeat your “theory” about sovereignty and the Ottoman Empire in the presence of educated people, lest they realize the levels of your ignorance. I don’t need to provide a source about the Ottoman Empire being a sovereign state.

      PS: the country of Greece began to exist in 1822. The nation of Greece has been around a lot longer.

      Double PS: UK= sovereign state. Ottoman Empire= was a sovereign state. That’s how you can compare the two. But it’s cute that you think you can educate me.

      Triple PS: It’s never a good sign in a debate when one side resorts to name-calling. Clean it up bro.

51. RVDV,
    Your Turkish law degree does not qualify you as being educated nor does it qualify you as being a lawyer. How can Turkish society possibly know what law is, when it has spent nearly a thousand years breaking it in every possible way?

    Once again, you were unable to provide a non-Turkish/Azeri credible source to prove that the Ottoman Empire was internationally recognized as a sovereign state or nation. Anyway, keep trying!

    PS: the country of Greece, as well as Armenia, existed several thousand years before 1822. As a matter of fact, these two countries existed several thousand years before the birth of the Ottoman Empire.

    Double PS: United Kingdom= internationally recognized sovereign state or nation. Ottoman Empire= an empire of terrorists who conquered many countries, such as Greece and Armenia.

    Triple PS: Exactly what do you mean by name-calling? Isn’t your name RVDV?

    Fourth PS: It’s never a good sign in a debate, when you present your information from Wikipedia.

    Fifth PS: I’m not your bro. No Turk will ever be my bro.

    Sixth PS: I enjoy having the opportunity to educate you.

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52. Peacefully let’s split Qarabag 50/50.OK?

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53. Gents,
    Interesting debates between two nations. I have been always curious to see what happened in Qarabaq .
    My grand parents were from Caucasus and my grand mother still sleeping in Bibi Heybat, Baku.
    As a Persian , I greatly respect to both Azeri and Armenian , you like it or not , we built a great history all together in region for 10000 years.
    A huge portion of Azeri living in Iran and they are excellent economist while a minority Armenian played important role as industrial experts and architect and …. In Iran for centuries.
    The only thing I would say that you will not see unless in dream , would be southern Azerbaijan , Azerbaijan province of Iran is a part of Iran , it was and it will be forever.
    Same way that a Persian cannot and is not allowed to separate Pars province from Iran.
    We all been attacked for years and centuries but still surviving. Let us respect each other

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